Organised religion is in near-terminal decline in Britain because parents have only a 50-50 chance of passing on belief to their offspring, a study claimed yesterday.

Full story (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/08/17/nrelig17.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/08/17/ixhome.html)

Not often that something positive is reported in the press.

Good news I think. Religion, or rather, the clash between different religions, causes a lot of trouble and suffering.

Religion in decline? Well, at least now we have something to thank God for then..................

Unless of course you discount the NEW 'religion'...

Worshipping all things celebrity esp the TV trash & sports 'stars'

I doubt very much if Islam is in decline.

Originally posted by royjames
I doubt very much if Islam is in decline.

Did you read the article?


The study also found generational decline evident throughout the Islamic and Jewish faiths, but from a much higher starting point.

The survey included all major religions.

oh great!

Now what am I going to teach at school??????

Originally posted by absynthfairy
Now what am I going to teach at school??????

Scientology ?

Originally posted by absynthfairy
oh great!

Now what am I going to teach at school??????

Well, there is a lot still to teach about religion and there always will be. I think humankind has a religious impulse which, as far as we know, has sought outlets in every culture and in every age.

Organised religion may be in decline, but spirituality and the search for meaning through spiritual quests of one kind or another most certainly are not.

Alternatively, you could teach about the the church of Ebay (which is soon likely to rival the great monotheistic religions in terms of the number of adherents).

Originally posted by LordChaverly
Well, there is a lot still to teach about religion and there always will be. I think humankind has a religious impulse which, as far as we know, has sought outlets in every culture and in every age.

Organised religion may be in decline, but spirituality and the search for meaning through spiritual quests of one kind or another most certainly are not.

I think you are right. In some ways I am glad for this, but I cannot help thinking that it will lead to more fuzzy thinking and mumbo jumbo, not less.

As people take up there own spiritual quests, they can adopt some truly incredible axioms with which to support their beliefs.

Philosophy should be mandatory from secondary school onwards.

The process of secularisation has been ongoing since the 70s with fewer and fewer church attenders and now fewer religious ceremonies, humanist funerals, weddings taking place in hotels and christenings more and more on the decline. I remember studying this in my A level Sociology back in the 80s. Evidently this process has continued further.

In schools, when OFSTED inspectors come round, they insist on ensuring that some spiritual education is encouraged right through to the sixth form.

sounds like you're all a bunch of infidels

I find the differences between north-western European secularisation and the opposite trend in the US fascinating. Why is it that in the US church attendences are rising, and faith seems to be central to pretty much all walks of life (including politics), whereas in this country it is the opposite?

On a personal note however, I am not surprised and am fairly happy with the situation. I think over the history of man religion has caused more misery than happiness and I am not sad to see its apparent demise. However, it should be remembered that these things often go in trends. Secularism has been popular in certain other historical periods, only to then see a resurgence of relogious belief.

Originally posted by banesmabes
I find the differences between north-western European secularisation and the opposite trend in the US fascinating. Why is it that in the US church attendences are rising, and faith seems to be central to pretty much all walks of life (including politics), whereas in this country it is the opposite?

On a personal note however, I am not surprised and am fairly happy with the situation. I think over the history of man religion has caused more misery than happiness and I am not sad to see its apparent demise. However, it should be remembered that these things often go in trends. Secularism has been popular in certain other historical periods, only to then see a resurgence of relogious belief.

As someone who used to live in the US, my take on it is this: many Americans live in small towns and rural communities, where the church is the centre of social life. They go to church on Sundays, and participate in church social activities during the week, because the church to which they belong provides social connections with others in their communities. Most Americans live in detached houses, with appreciable distances between themselves and their neighbours. The church provides a convenient social nexus. For example, after the church services, there is usually a coffee hour or something similar, where people can meet others for drinks and snacks. In addition, there is also gentle, subtle moral pressure to join a church (from your friends). I used to go to a Lutheran church for these reasons, even though I'm a fully paid up member of the Supreme Church Of The Utterly Indifferent God).

Originally posted by LordChaverly
As someone who used to live in the US, my take on it is this: many Americans live in small towns and rural communities, where the church is the centre of social life. They go to church on Sundays, and participate in church social activities during the week, because the church to which they belong provides social connections with others in their communities. Most Americans live in detached houses, with appreciable distances between themselves and their neighbours. The church provides a convenient social nexus. For example, after the church services, there is usually a coffee hour or something similar, where people can meet others for drinks and snacks. In addition, there is also gentle, subtle moral pressure to join a church (from your friends). I used to go to a Lutheran church for these reasons, even though I'm a fully paid up member of the Supreme Church Of The Utterly Indifferent God).

Few other things to add to that.

The biggest churches tend to be in rural areas. Like in any country religion and poverty go hand in hand. People looking for hope. Many of the most religious states are big farming communities and over the past decade the communities have been going through changes. Huge farming and packing companies replacing the family run farm. Places like Kansas are the poster child for this move to religion... and also to the destruction of farming communities.

There is an excellent book for anybody interested in this phenomenon called
"Whats the matter with Kansas" http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0805073396/qid=1124372696/sr=8-4/ref=pd_bbs_4/104-2466015-8279121?v=glance&s=books&n=507846.

Originally posted by Classic Rock
In schools, when OFSTED inspectors come round, they insist on ensuring that some spiritual education is encouraged right through to the sixth form.

It's the law that RE is taught to the end of key stage 4 (GCSE level) Most schools offer short course GCSE RE (half a GCSE basically) based on one lesson a week - and then get a mug like me to teach most of the school - 25 different groups in september!

The short course my school offers is called "Religion and Life" and is basically secular, muslim and christian responses to various ethical and social dilemmas - abortion, euthanasia, poverty, marriage etc...

Goes down ok - not great, just ok. Wish i taught english most of the time...

Originally posted by absynthfairy
It's the law that RE is taught to the end of key stage 4 (GCSE level) Most schools offer short course GCSE RE (half a GCSE basically) based on one lesson a week - and then get a mug like me to teach most of the school - 25 different groups in september!

The short course my school offers is called "Religion and Life" and is basically secular, muslim and christian responses to various ethical and social dilemmas - abortion, euthanasia, poverty, marriage etc...

Goes down ok - not great, just ok. Wish i taught english most of the time...

If I remember rightly, RE (Religious Education) used to be RI (Religious Instruction). I think education is far preferable to instruction. Perhaps the danger of single faith schools is that children are more likely to receive instruction rather than education in religious matters.

Not from me - I'm an atheist!

the most annoying thing about the decline in religion is why so many people insist in marrying in church in the house of a god they do not believe in, whilst totally ignoring the "general" beliefs associated. even worse when some non believers even have there children christened/baptised.

Originally posted by willman
the most annoying thing about the decline in religion is why so many people insist in marrying in church in the house of a god they do not believe in, whilst totally ignoring the "general" beliefs associated. even worse when some non believers even have there children christened/baptised.

Personally, I don't find this annoying, because one can feel part of the Christian tradition (in terms of values and culture) without necessarily believing in Christ's divinity. I love church music and church art and I feel no incongruity in taking pleasure in these or indeed in participating in ceremonial occasions organised by the Christian church.

Originally posted by LordChaverly
Personally, I don't find this annoying, because one can feel part of the Christian tradition (in terms of values and culture) without necessarily believing in Christ's divinity. I love church music and church art and I feel no incongruity in taking pleasure in these or indeed in participating in ceremonial occasions organised by the Christian church.

Likewise. I'd get married in a church, for the sake of tradition, provided that I could have a humanist ceremony and the vicar wouldn't mind that. And when I lived down south I used to go to choral evensong at Winchester because of the music and the setting, both of which I found 'spiritual' despite not believing a word of what they were talking about.

so what is the point of marriage in a church.
i thought u were declaring your love to each other - in a place of worship,"in the presence of God"
tradition is only borne out of repeatedly carrying out the same action over & over again.
the original instigators of tradition were believers in the values & doctrines of religion.

I was brought up as a Catholic but the only time I go to church now is for weddings or funerals etc. It's funny how many 'lapsed' Catholics you meet!!

Anyway, I don't think being religious or not being religious automatically makes you a good or bad person, and arguably it's not religion itself which causes 'problems' - more the way we humans interpret and/or use it!!

Originally posted by willman
so what is the point of marriage in a church.

Several reasons, e.g.

- continuity with a tradition going back hundreds of years (and which has issued in the secular society of today);

- buildings typically nicer or more 'spiritual' than the average registry office;

- source of much-needed income for the church;

- churches have traditionally been focal points for the community.

Though I don't know how many vicars would be happy to allow a humanist ceremony in their buildings.

Can't disagree with the 'quality' of the building point re: churches. The 'registry office' in Sheffield used to be the very awful "Wedding Cake", some 60s or 70s monstrosity. Although the registry office in Sheff is now based in the old town hall which is quite a nice building.

i agree with all the points made re: churches tradition etc.
but if you aren't a believer why marry in a house of god.
there are other buildings suitable for civil ceremonies.

what about the traditions of no sex before marriage , no living together.
this also makes a mockery of the marriage tradition in churches.

Well quite - I'm sure that most vicars would feel the same way, which is why I'll probably end up taking my money elsewhere.

But I suspect that many nominally Christian people who get married in church really feel much the same way as I do, deep down.

Originally posted by willman
i agree with all the points made re: churches tradition etc.
but if you aren't a believer why marry in a house of god.
there are other buildings suitable for civil ceremonies...
As has been said, it's very much about tradition, and even family tradition...

...I'll use myself as an example...

...my father was christened, confirmed, and married in church...

...I was then born, and christened, but chose not to be confirmed, as I wasn't a practicing christian...

...but when I got married, I did so in church, it "felt right"...

...and when I had children of my own, I wanted to give them the choice (that I had) and enquired about having them christened...

...but the local vicar refused, denying my kids, because of my actions (not attending church).

:confused:

Sorry, that may seem a little off the point, but, what I'm trying to say, is many people do "feel" a little bit christian, without going to church all the time, or being really overt about it...

...and sometimes, it's the church that don't want us, more than the other way round.

Ultimately, this will turn even more people "off" from organised religion, and that certainly seems to be what is being shown.

:)

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Did you read the article?



The survey included all major religions. islam is on the increase not just in thirdworld countrys but also in the west, look at france,india people convert to escape the caste system,all along the soviet boaders

Originally posted by willman
i agree with all the points made re: churches tradition etc.
but if you aren't a believer why marry in a house of god.
there are other buildings suitable for civil ceremonies.

what about the traditions of no sex before marriage , no living together.
this also makes a mockery of the marriage tradition in churches.

because if you aren't a believer, then it's just a big building that has a nice look and feel.
What about other traditions, take what we like, ditch the nonsense that they peddle. Critical thought, it's what seperates humans from the devout, oops, I mean animals.

Originally posted by deadgobby
islam is on the increase not just in thirdworld countrys but also in the west, look at france,india people convert to escape the caste system,all along the soviet boaders

you'd best contact them and tell them that they got it wrong, stupid survey people.

Originally posted by Cyclone
because if you aren't a believer, then it's just a big building that has a nice look and feel.
What about other traditions, take what we like, ditch the nonsense that they peddle. Critical though, it's what seperates humans from the devout, oops, I mean animals.

I agree completely with this. I think a lot of people who get married in church are only doing so because it is a nice building. Let's face it, the types of churches people choose to get married in are nearly always the older churches that are pleasing to the eye - rarely the modern, 60s churches built of concrete!

This was a major problem up until a couple of years ago, when pretty much the only places you could get married were churches or registry offices. And since most registry offices are about as attractive as the back end of a bus, and a big white wedding would also look completely out of place at most of them (and therefore, most other wedding traditions would go out of the window as a result), then by default people would get married in churches.

I think we may see this change over the coming years, as the laws on what kind of buildings can hold marriages have been changed, and we are seeing many beautiful, secular buildings coming into the wedding market. For instance I stayed at a gorgeous country hotel in Derbyshire on an away day at my old company and there was a big white wedding going on there. It was secular, but the building was spectacular and the wedding (full of other traditions) didn't look at all out of place.

Originally posted by banesmabes
I think we may see this change over the coming years, as the laws on what kind of buildings can hold marriages have been changed, and we are seeing many beautiful, secular buildings coming into the wedding market. For instance I stayed at a gorgeous country hotel in Derbyshire on an away day at my old company and there was a big white wedding going on there. It was secular, but the building was spectacular and the wedding (full of other traditions) didn't look at all out of place.
I agree - of the few weddings I've been to in the last 3 or 4 years, none have been in church.

I held back from getting married for ten years, because it was against my beliefs for the reasons that willman mentions: I'm an atheist, and I didn't see any practical point in marriage (having already privately pledged myself to my spouse for life) other than to stick with religious tradition. Eventually my views mellowed and I agreed to get married because I thought it would be a good excuse to get all my mates in one place. We got married at the Earth Centre in Conisbrough (http://www.sumption.org/wedding/) - shame it's closed since then because it really was the best day of my life (and from subsequent comments from lots of the guests, it was the best wedding they'd been to), and although we weren't graced by God's presence we did have a very friendly six-foot rabbit on hand.