After reading all the vitriolic comments about my favourite Prime Minister, I feel that I have to respond to all the poison that has been directed at him. This is a good man and has done/doing his very best in the circumstances and crisis, he has had to deal with.

Criticism and hindsight is alright for any fool to say when one knows what has happened, the difficulty is knowing what to do at the time. What would we have done if the buck stopped at our door? Tony Blair has my full support in all he has done and is doing, now and in the future,our lives and welfare are safe with him!

Here, Here! I couldn't agree more. In my opinion, he's the best and most eloquent Prime Minister we've ever had.

I cringe when I here/see the rubbish that's said/written about him, so it's about time somebody stuck up for him a bit.

Nice one Halevan!! :thumbsup:

Love him or loathe him he's better than John Major/Margaret Thatcher. We're also stuck with him for the forseeable future as look at the alternative: Michael Howard.

It's alright, I won't mention him again, you can come out from behind the sofa.

Boo, Ann Widdecombe, sorry, come out from behind the sofa again.

Originally posted by Agent Smith
Here, Here! I couldn't agree more. In my opinion, he's the best and most eloquent Prime Minister we've ever had.

I cringe when I here/see the rubbish that's said/written about him, so it's about time somebody stuck up for him a bit.

Nice one Halevan!! :thumbsup:

Thanks A.S. nice to know there is someone on the Forum who can use their own brains, instead of following the opinions of others all the time. "Blair" is the best Prime Minister this country has ever had, he has got plenty of guts, intelligence and stamina, all sadly lacking in her Majestys opposition ( what a shower! )

Well it is an open secret that I think he is a decent man who does his best in difficult circumstances. I have met him often and I admire him for what he does; not just anyone could be the Prime Minister of a country with all it entails, not just anyone is bright enough to stay on top of all the issues, not just anyone has the diplomacy skills to manage local residents as well as world leaders. You can agree with him or disagree him with him, but I dont think you can say he is a bad person.

- we need to get the praise in first before the rest arrive and blast him out of the water

So - what vitriolic comments? Blair - will sign away our independance without any referendum. He has allegedly stated that regardless of what the people want - it is up to him to decide what is best for the country. We fought two world wars to preserve our independance - not to give it away when the smoke has died down.

And it is not just the euro thing that annoys me. Do we need another list of the promises he has broken, and the failings in his office?

You can knock Margaret Thatcher all you want, but with her running the country we had something to be proud of. Do a list of the promises she made and the few she broke.

At the last elections I voted for neither of these two parties so cannot be classed as either labour or conservative. I will vote for anyone who supports our independance and our sovereign rights to rule ourselves - with our own laws, our own culture and our own way of life.

Blair is definitely not a saint. If he ever ended up in heaven he would probably sell it out to the devil.

Nosferatu

Originally posted by Nosferatu
So - what vitriolic comments? Blair - will sign away our independance without any referendum. He has allegedly stated that regardless of what the people want - it is up to him to decide what is best for the country. We fought two world wars to preserve our independance - not to give it away when the smoke has died down.

And it is not just the euro thing that annoys me. Do we need another list of the promises he has broken, and the failings in his office?

You can knock Margaret Thatcher all you want, but with her running the country we had something to be proud of. Do a list of the promises she made and the few she broke.

At the last elections I voted for neither of these two parties so cannot be classed as either labour or conservative. I will vote for anyone who supports our independance and our sovereign rights to rule ourselves - with our own laws, our own culture and our own way of life.

Blair is definitely not a saint. If he ever ended up in heaven he would probably sell it out to the devil.

Nosferatu

You have your opinion and I will have mine!!!

Saint or sinner look what's been achieved:

Achievements (http://www.labour.org.uk/372177/)

Originally posted by Nosferatu
So - what vitriolic comments? Blair - will sign away our independance without any referendum. He has allegedly stated that regardless of what the people want - it is up to him to decide what is best for the country. We fought two world wars to preserve our independance - not to give it away when the smoke has died down.

And it is not just the euro thing that annoys me. Do we need another list of the promises he has broken, and the failings in his office?

You can knock Margaret Thatcher all you want, but with her running the country we had something to be proud of. Do a list of the promises she made and the few she broke.

At the last elections I voted for neither of these two parties so cannot be classed as either labour or conservative. I will vote for anyone who supports our independance and our sovereign rights to rule ourselves - with our own laws, our own culture and our own way of life.

Blair is definitely not a saint. If he ever ended up in heaven he would probably sell it out to the devil.

Nosferatu


Nosferatu, you miss no chance to berate Blair, do you? Neither do I. He's a scumbag. When recently asked in His home country (at the time) of India about whether his feelings re Europe were the same as before, he replied;- "Of course that is what I have always said". Now THAT is a statement not an answer, spot it? We know what he has always said, but does he still MEAN it? that's what he DID NOT answer.

Blair has it all wrong because he is lacking in real brains. He has a brain for speaking but not speaking sense.

He first of all is a dictator, second, he thinks only he is right for the country and third, he is loosing his marbles.

That's all very well Max, but I would be a complete idiot to go to their propaganda site and read what they claim to be true. Anyone can doctor figures.

Lets see what the real stats are and then I may become a believer in politicians telling the truth. The waiting lists are shorter cos people are going private or being sent to die at home when they could be saved. Unemployment is down - and I am the pope.

Do you honestly expect me to believe that you believe the stats on that page? You are not that naiive I am sure.

But Blair could have carried out miracles - It does not matter. What matters is selling out Britain and the British people to europe. He will not hold a referendum - not because he decides what is best for the country - but because if he did put it to the vote he would lose, and we cannot have that can we. This man is a traitor, and treason is the crime that springs to my mind when his name is mentioned.

Nosferatu
The Real Undead

Originally posted by Nosferatu
That's all very well Max, but I would be a complete idiot to go to their propaganda site and read what they claim to be true. Anyone can doctor figures.

OK, so show me the truth. If you can identify which statistics are lies and back it up with facts then I'd agree that it is propaganda. If not, then yes, you are an idiot.

Lets see what the real stats are and then I may become a believer in politicians telling the truth. The waiting lists are shorter cos people are going private or being sent to die at home when they could be saved. Unemployment is down - and I am the pope.

Again, disprove any of the facts.

Do you honestly expect me to believe that you believe the stats on that page? You are not that naive I am sure.

Ditto

He will not hold a referendum.

Err, yes he will, it's the tories who have said they won't hold a referendum, or didn't the tory press mention that?

Thanks Max. Thought you would not answer any of the points I raised which shows I am a reasonably good judge of character.

You do not take notice of the news on television, or the newspapers or you would see that I am asking for some validation on what is said therein. There have been several programs - supposedly unbiased - shown on television concerning the promises Blair allegedly made and which ones he has succeeded or failed on.

Do you really believe what they claim? Amazing! Your idea of facts is stunning. If some politician says I cured the plague then it must be true - especially if labour make the claim? I think not.

But seriously - Blair has stated - are you listening Max? Blair has stated that he will NOT hold a referendum as he believes he is acting in the best interests of the country. Ask him.

He has already signed up to lord knows what without asking us how we feel. I expected some mature response - seems I am mistaken in such expectations. Ah well!

Nosferatu
The Real Undead

OK, I thought the referendum bit related to the Euro but I expect you mean the constitution. That's been addressed in other threads so we'll leave that for the mo'.

The statistics given on the Labour website are facts taken from the relevant departments. I'll concede that none of the non-achievements are listed there but then I wouldn't expect them to be, would you?

What I would like to see posted here are any facts which contradict anything given on the website but I should imagine that would be difficult. You refer to tv programmes which highlight failed promises but what I was showing were facts related to kept promises. Spot the difference?

The problem I have with ANY political party is they are all liable to lie for the benfit of the party and greate scapegoats as and when required.

I have no idea what promises were made at their election or which ones they have broken, I followed what my family had done for generations and voted labour.
Whilst I fully supported Blair and his actions during the recent war in Iraq, I cannot support his actions with Europe.

He has walked a double edged blade with this one, he upset large numbers of peace protesters over the conflict and upset the other lot with the European questions with a nice crossover in between.

I fail to see how Blair or the labour party can make it through the next election.

Moon Maiden

Max - you could start by listening to the other side.

Councillor Sean O'Sullivan for instance lists a few -

"Ask the voters who voted Labour to stop Edgware General Hospital closing what they think of their MP now. Ask the mortgage payer. Ask those who contribute to a Private Pension fund. Ask the students going to University next year. Labour has betrayed us all.

We face the prospect of broken promises on taxation. We all remember the Labour Party promises. No increase in taxes. They will stick to Conservative spending plans. After only two months in office they hit the taxpayer with a massive seventeen increases in tax."

Any idiot can search the internet and come up with whatever they want. I look at what is around me and see labours failings. Yes - I watch television and listen to the news, and tend NOT to ignore what I hear if I do not agree with it. The fact someone has raised the points makes me interested in finding out the truth or not behind those claims.

The labour party itself has said in its broadcasts that there have been some 'failures' though they do not use the word per se.

For someone to believe what you claim to believe leaves me in a state of incredulous shock. Talk about sheep.

By the way - my father used to vote labour. My mother was a conservative supporter. I vote for the person that little bit less deceitful than the others.

Nosferatu
The Real Undead

Originally posted by Nosferatu
Max - you could start by listening to the other side.

Councillor Sean O'Sullivan for instance lists a few -

"Ask the voters who voted Labour to stop Edgware General Hospital closing what they think of their MP now. Ask the mortgage payer. Ask those who contribute to a Private Pension fund. Ask the students going to University next year. Labour has betrayed us all.

We face the prospect of broken promises on taxation. We all remember the Labour Party promises. No increase in taxes. They will stick to Conservative spending plans. After only two months in office they hit the taxpayer with a massive seventeen increases in tax."

Any idiot can search the internet and come up with whatever they want. I look at what is around me and see labours failings. Yes - I watch television and listen to the news, and tend NOT to ignore what I hear if I do not agree with it. The fact someone has raised the points makes me interested in finding out the truth or not behind those claims.

The labour party itself has said in its broadcasts that there have been some 'failures' though they do not use the word per se.

For someone to believe what you claim to believe leaves me in a state of incredulous shock. Talk about sheep.

By the way - my father used to vote labour. My mother was a conservative supporter. I vote for the person that little bit less deceitful than the others.

Nosferatu
The Real Undead

Well said. :thumbsup:

But you know what they say about the electorate around these parts....they'd vote for a donkey if it wore a red rosette and I'm sorry to say that it's true.

Tony Blair has done very little for the majority of hard working people of this country. He has pandered to the minority groups whilst treating the very people who are financing his spending with contempt.

Taxes taxes taxes should have been his motto

'Education education eduaction' well that was a con wasn't it? More and more schools are now dependant on parents financial contributions to buy the most basic items of stationery and even in some cases to finance teachers salaries.

Nice to see the brown nosers are alive and kicking.

Do you really think that the "majority of hard working people" would be happier under a Conservative government?

I thought we had one.

Yeah ok :)

But I meant Mr Howard and his crew...

Puzzled about the bit on mortgages. All the financial wizards say the stability brought about by this government's policies has resulted in the lowest interest rates for a long time. I remember paying 16% interest on my mortgage during the previous administration. But, if you say mortgage payers are suffering then I must be wrong and all the independant pundits must be too.

Nos, if you read my posts you will see I agree with you repeatedly that there are failures. What I was also doing was pointing out the successes and saying that it's not all bad.

If you really want to change things instead of sniping then join the political party of your choice and get things done from the inside.

Some of you may need a bucket nearby when you view this site. Even I found it a bit hard to stomach.

Thank you Tony (http://thankyoutony.com/)

Originally posted by max
Some of you may need a bucket nearby when you view this site. Even I found it a bit hard to stomach.

Thank you Tony (http://thankyoutony.com/)
******s! Yeah, I just used it to send a message of thanks to Tony... don't think he'll like it much though!

Originally posted by max
If you really want to change things instead of sniping then join the political party of your choice and get things done from the inside.

Better still take up arms and storm parliament. That way you'd get a result; need a lot of you to do it though, don't try this on your own.

If you join a political party you can think hard on your policies while you are out delivering another 10,000 electioneering leaflets and driving up membership like some kind of cult.

Like a cult, you must subjugate your own personal beliefs to a greater or lesser degree and wear the stated beliefs of your party like a badge. It also requires that you believe all other parties are wrong, axiomatically.

Then, when your chosen party gets into office, you can watch them sell out their beliefs wholesale, and excommunicate you if you do not blindly support the executive at the division bell.

It's a jaundiced view I admit, but it seems to be the case from where I am sitting.

Nobody who knows will argue that the UK's economy isn't in the best state it been in for decades. Not only that it's one of the best economies in the World right now. Stable, low unemployment, we have even grown while everybody else in Europe has shrunk or stayed still. So the economy is great, and you will see very few economists arguing with that.

Taxes have risen, after a short spell living in America i am amased how much we pay in taxes. Our income tax isn't all that high, but with all the other taxes (council, VAT etc) it really adds up. I certainly have less disposable income than when i left.

But what i did come back to was a country that not only looks much better, but feels much better. My first stop was a job centre in Leeds. A place that was once run down and depressing now had computer consoles where you could search and print out jobs. Gone are the cards and unhelpful people who hate their jobs.

Everywhere i go i see huge amounts of development and money being spent on public services.

I work in the NHS, i have always worked in the NHS. Over the past 15 years i have seen many attempts at modernising that have fallen flat on their faces. Many governments trying to tackle the inherent problems, and lot's of money being wasted. My old boss a senior GP always told me they would never get consensus between specialists, GP's and the government. Everybody is too stubborn and everybody has their own agenda. This government has not only crafted a very plausible NHS wide computer system (nobody else even came close, and they don't even have this in the states), but they have re-structured and modernised working conditions and pay, something nobody has even tried before.. but everybody knew needed to be done. We never hear about this HUGE achievement. The NHS is a better place now, yeah you will have the odd consultant or hospital manager who whines about red tape or what ever, you will tend to find they are the same people cooking the waiting times as well.

This government (forget Blair he is just one of many people who have made these things work) has done many things to modernise a flagging country. There is still a long way to go, but just look around you, look at the investment that has been made that nobody else had the balls to do (or we wouldn't have to be spending so much on the rail service). Many of the changes will not show their benefit for a number of years (the NHS wide computer system for example).

When you talk about promises made and broken it's just political rhetoric. You will NEVER find a single government who has not found that when they got in to power they could deliver. God if we went back to the 70's and 80's and compared what parties said and what they did you will find a HUGE improvement (and that includes the two Conservative PM's). Maggie Thatcher did some good things (we had to close the pits and move away from manufacturing as Blair also understands now), but to say she was more honest that Blair is a joke. There were broken promises, police told to more heavy handed than needed during strikes, a certain Argentinean ship directly ordered to be destroyed by Maggie after the war had ended etc etc etc. I can only assume people have forgotten how our country was plunged in to recession by her governments economic policies.

As for Europe, well i hope that globalisation is given more than lip service. But as it's highly unlikely that true globalisation will become a reality we have to face facts that we cannot compete as a small Island, with high wages and a social safety net, by ourselves. I don't think we will become the new state of America, and while i have doubts about the EU constitution and how it will pan out, we have no real option if we want to be as affluent as we are now. A single Europe without England will undercut and beat us in every industry. It would hold the value of the pound down and in effect we would probably have to start manufacturing cheap goods for the mainland, while they outsource manufacturing and concentrate on service and 'brain' sectors. These people who don't want to go in to Europe NEVER have a solution, they just don't want us to go in... that is often the limit of their knowledge on the subject.

Although i disagree with the war, and see the labour party making mistakes now (mainly for submitting to the right wing press and making asylum seekers an issue, when it should have been... just to win votes) Blair is still achieved the most and been the best Prime Minister that i have ever known.

Originally posted by max
Some of you may need a bucket nearby when you view this site. Even I found it a bit hard to stomach.

Thank you Tony (http://thankyoutony.com/)

BOAK! Pass the bucket.

I had a quick luck at some of the messages - didn't see 1 from Britain, the majority seemed to be from the USA.

Nomme

Also what about Northern Ireland (spelling fix many thanks to Nomme)? Another achievement of Blair, he has pushed that forward and we are closer to real peace now than we have ever been. So in 30 years nobody could achieve that (does he get no credit?), and his methods have been the basis of the US 'road map to peace' in the middle east.

He devolved governments to Scotland and Wales. Again something that needed to be done, something that has worked and will continue to work.

Student top up fees MUST be implemented. Again you don't hear anybody from Universities saying anything other than that (apart from the students). We have very high drop out rates, because it's so cheap to go to Uni here. We need to make sure the people who would never finish a course do not mess it up for those who are serious. Yeah it's unpopular, but (as Maggie knows) the best PM's make unpopular (but necessary) changes. Because he is not thinking about just getting re-elected, but he is thinking of the UK's long term future.

He knows that one of our biggest exports is Music. He was told that musicians needed time to practice and you can even get a £400 grant if you are unemployed to buy instruments. Very forward thinking.

He is probably THE most respected PM around the World we have had since Churchill (who was a terrible PM, just great for war). If he was American he world win the next presidential election hands down with the support he has over there.

It seems people can remember the small things (excluding tax), but they forget the HUGE things that have saved money and improved the lives of millions. They didn't happen by themselves.

When Tony Blair was much younger he was left wing no doubts about that but now he is much to the right. I have always thought that Labour would never get to power unless they changed their publicity and became electable. They have done that and now they are New Labour and electable.

If the Conservatives get in they will be even more to the right and the Health Service, Public Services and Education will be sold to us as giving us power tp choose. This is no choice at all because we all have to deal with local amenities and local authorities.

Blair is somewhat to the middle of these extremes and long may he remain their because it frightens me to think of a Conservative Election Victory. They would be back in their cosy little jobs for toffee positions of power.

Blair is not a saint neither is he a sinner. He is dealing with the world as it is and not how we would like it to be.

For what it's worth, if Blair is got rid of, and Brown (bureaucracy crazy) does not succeed Blair, I wouldn't cry in my soup if they got back in. ;)

Originally posted by back2basics
He knows that one of our biggest exports is Music. He was told that musicians needed time to practice and you can even get a £400 grant if you are unemployed to buy instruments. Very forward thinking.

I'm sorry but I know three unemployed musicians who have tried to do just that - to no avail whatsoever - like it was some mythical scheme, in sheffield at least.

Well i must admit i don't know anybody who has taken the grant to buy equipment. But i know plenty of people who have taken advantage of free course for musicians. Red Tape is full of people who are getting their courses paid for by the government.

I guess it could be mythical, but it could also be a case of speaking to the wrong person at the wrong time. I think the main benefit of this scheme is to allow musicians time to practice. As the KLF said, the dole has done more for Britain's musical output than anything else, and Britain's musical output has been very profitable for us.