Our company have recenly gone live with a new website, a re-design in fact from our previous site. The company we used to develop this have used the Drupal CM system and i have the usual end user access admin rights. As in i can upload products, images etc..

The problem is i want to lose this company who have developed the site because they don't reply to emails, and it can take a week or two to iron out any problems with the CM system (Assuming they reply!) I'm finding the admin side of Drupal quite messy to be honest and feel as thought these guys don't have much of a clue what they are doing. Maybe they've used the wrong modules - i dont know. However the site does look and feel nice.

My question to anybody reading this who knows. How easy or hard will it be for me to find another web developer out there to take over? Can they take over? Because Drupal is opensource I would imagine I'm well in my rights to ask them for the super admin to pass onto somebody else?

Thanks for reading.

If you own the domain then you have overall rights to it, so it should be a simple task of just pointing the domain elsewhere. However before you do that you need to make sure that you have a site ready and available to publish once the move is complete.

I do own the Domain and the site is currently live! They also host it for us, or should i say they back it off to fasthosts.

Mod note:
If anyone wants to respond to the OPs request to offer their help can they send a PM and not post their offers here please so we keep to advice only here. Thanks.

It should be reasonably easy given the amount of web designers around, and yes, you should have full rights to your own website including the login details for super admin, which you should change the password for once you get hold of it so that they have no further access if you do not trust them. You should also make sure you have the Fasthosts control panel login for the hosting and doamin, and change those passwords too. Just as a precaution.

Indizine - Thanks. I'm waiting for them to reply to another problem at the moment so will run this by them!

This is a good example of why it's best to go with a widely used rather than a proprietary CMS, and to keep your domain name and hosting separate from your developer and from each other.

As you say, Drupal is open source and widely used, so you shouldn't have any problems finding another developer. You don't necessarily even need someone local, so you have a whole world of talent to choose from.

If your site is on your own hosting account (rather than your developer's server), then you should be able to just change the relevant passwords when you've found someone new.

If it's on your developer's server, then as Avalon says you'll need to duplicate the site on a new server, and then repoint your domain name.

If your domain name and your hosting are with your developer, then you'll need to duplicate your site on a new server, repoint your domain name, and then transfer your domain name away from your current developer.

And if you didn't keep things separate when you set up the current site, perhaps you should consider doing so this time.

Of course, you may be able to avoid all of this by telling your current developer that you'd like better communication and prompter updates and asking whether they're able to provide that (if you haven't already). The relationship may be reparable.

If your domain name and your hosting are with your developer, then you'll need to duplicate your site on a new server, repoint your domain name, and then transfer your domain name away from your current developer.


Well i have the domain name registered with a seperate company all together. My thinking is like indizine above says, i could ask them for the fasthosts control panel, the drupal admin and that way i dont have to transfer anything?

That is correct. Your hosting is with Fasthosts and you will have paid for that hosting (or you are paying someone (them or Fasthosts) a monthly fee) and so you should have the login details without question. As you have paid for the website to be designed, they should also give you the login details to Drupal Admin also without question - you own it after all and they cannot withold it from you. I'm not saying they will, but just so you know your rights. So long as you have paid them in full for any work done, you should have no bother getting what you need from them.

My question to anybody reading this who knows. How easy or hard will it be for me to find another web developer out there to take over? Can they take over? Because Drupal is opensource I would imagine I'm well in my rights to ask them for the super admin to pass onto somebody else?

You're well within your rights whether Drupal is open source or not - it's your website, you paid for it!

It should be quite easy to find a web developer to help you, I would check out drupal related UK forums, and look for a drupal expert who can help you. You could also try something like elancer.com.

How is your site hosted? Does your webdev company manage the hosting or is it hosted on a plan you pay for and control? That will probably make the most difference to you when dumping your existing webdev.

If it's their hosting plan, then it's likely they control all aspects of the domain like email, ftp and so on then you'll need to think about how you'll move these over. Any competent webdev will be able to plan and execute the move for you.

Things to watch out for when moving a website are disparities between the new and old hosting space in terms of software - are both servers using Apache? Are they the same version? Are PHP and MySQL both installed, and are they different versions? Are the same libraries installed extending PHP?

Again, any competent web dev will know the pitfalls and how to deal with them. Ideally if you need to move hosts, it makes sense to itemise the current hosting setup and try to finding a new hosting provider which matches or near matches the existing hosting setup.

Or just keep it with Fasthosts for now, but transfer it to your own account.

Agree with others - because Drupal is open source, you shouldn't have any issues finding another company to take on the development. Just do a google for "UK Drupal developer" brings up a list of firms as a starting point.

Just wanted to mention one point you made about the admin menu being messy. I agree, it is, but they have enhanced this in Version 7 and are also working on a backport of the admin menu module that you can install on your current site (assuming you are on version 6). That should hopefully improve things for you.
Sorry if this is slightly off-topic, but the OP did bring it up and I thought it would help.

Thanks everyone for clearing a few cloudy issues up! I'm right now just waiting for them to come back to me with a good reason for been utterly useless.. Depending on the outcome either way, i will post and let you all know.

hey, tell them we are all waiting too...it might hurry up their response if they know they are on the 'sheffield forum meter' :D:D

They should've given you all the passwords, the drupal admin password & your hosting account password. The drupal admin system can be a bit complicated, but its not too bad once you get used to it. There are a few modules & admin only layout themes that can make it a bit easier to use.

This is a good example of why it's best to go with a widely used rather than a proprietary CMS, and to keep your domain name and hosting separate from your developer and from each other.

I'm not sure that this is necessarily the case. We use a proprietry system from a company called Swish Pixel and the service is excellent...you need to make sure that you research your supplier base, make sure they understand what it is that you need, make sure you understand what they can deliver and get a formal, legally binding agreement in place.

Even widely used systems will have databases which you might not have access to should you fall out with your supplier and try to move the site from one host to another.

Always remember...you get what you pay for and this is VERY true in the world of software/software development!

I'm not sure that this is necessarily the case. We use a proprietry system from a company called Swish Pixel and the service is excellent...you need to make sure that you research your supplier base, make sure they understand what it is that you need, make sure you understand what they can deliver and get a formal, legally binding agreement in place.

Even widely used systems will have databases which you might not have access to should you fall out with your supplier and try to move the site from one host to another.

Always remember...you get what you pay for and this is VERY true in the world of software/software development!

With any proprietary software you're relying on the company that produces it to keep producing it. With open source, you should have access to the source code & databases, then you can always pay a programmer to fix any problems. Without the full source code & the legal right to modify it as you wish, you're helpless & at the mercy of the company producing the software.

Open source turns the 'you get what you pay for' argument on its head, you actually get much more for much less.

I'm not sure that this is necessarily the case. We use a proprietry system from a company called Swish Pixel and the service is excellent...you need to make sure that you research your supplier base, make sure they understand what it is that you need, make sure you understand what they can deliver and get a formal, legally binding agreement in place.

Think of what I advised as like taking out an insurance policy. I'm pleased that you're happy with your current developer, but if they went under, or their quality of service dipped, then you'd find it much more difficult to find someone to take over the running of your site than if you'd used a platform that's open to other developers.

Even widely used systems will have databases which you might not have access to should you fall out with your supplier and try to move the site from one host to another.

Not if you host your site with a third party rather than on your developer's server, as I advised. This shouldn't be any more difficult to set up, but protects you against the eventualities you describe.

Always remember...you get what you pay for and this is VERY true in the world of software/software development!

I couldn't disagree more. The top open source CMSs have had far more resources go into their development than any web developer's proprietary CMS. As well as being free, and giving you access to a competitive marketplace of skilled developers, they'll have far superior functionality. Paying less needn't mean getting less.

And web development is one of those areas where clients often aren't in a position to tell whether they've got good quality or value, and there are developers that make the most of this by charging higher prices than their work merits and/or locking clients into long-term maintenance contracts that don't provide value. Paying more doesn't guarantee getting more.

An update for some of you. After more than a week now of our web company saying they will go through a webex meeting with me to discuss a change of layout on the backend. (This was planned for Monday just gone) They are planning a webex with me tomorrow to find out what are my issues and to integrate 'hopefully' a better user interface. To be honest after waiting over a week now i quite simply can't be bothered with them. But will give the webex meeting a go anyway.

What i'd like is for somebody on here to take a look at the site, and let me know what they think to it. Any opinions on the SEO as i really don't have a clue to be honest. Please PM me.
Thanks

Why dont you start a new thread and ask for a webiste review?

Maybe i'm wrong, so no shouting please...

There's no contract displayed here, so is the work done on the site actually itboy's and if the other developer owns the rights to the Fasthosts account, then i'd assume that itboy doesn't and therefore doesn't have a right to the data stored within it.

It's like if I send data to say a printers, then they prep it, then print something for me, in reality i'm only entitled to the prints i've agreed to purchase. Usually i'd have to pay for the prep, but those rights would generally belong still to the printer, unless agreed otherwise. Especially in the digital world theres loads of examples of this type of contract, just look at MicroSoft, you don't own a copy of Windows, just an agreement that you may use it, as long as they say you can, but they always have the right to refuse entry at any point.

Yes, in an ideal world, the type of world I like, the site, lock, stock and barrel is yours.

I've just spoken to photographer friend and she states that even though someone pays her for say a portrait, she still technically owns the rights of the image, unless specifically stated otherwise. So???



NB: Here I refer to itboy, meaning the themself and or the company represented.

Interesting perspective...as the system is open source...the code should be available to everyone...question is, if somebody, then, customises the source code, do they then own it?

This is a very grey area and is different to the photographer analogy referred to.

It's like someone being able replicate the image by writing a program replicating the ones and zeros in the image (which is virtually impossible to do by the way!). The image displayed is the same, but the creation of the image is done differently. The photograph is propriertry to the photographer the recreation of the ones and zeros is 'open source'.

The assumption (made by the courts in several cases) in IT development is that unless a contract specifies otherwise, the party who contracts for and pays for custom development (ie a website) will own the rights when the work is completed.

There are situations where the developer will keep some or all of the rights, for example when they make modifications to an existing product that they sell, or when it's some form of COTS. But in the general case, bespoke development will always belong to the customer unless the contract says otherwise.
It's very different to either Microsoft producing COTS packages or a photographer taking images.

Originally all the data on the previous website was ours. All the developers have done is transferred it onto a new CM system (drupal) and given me access on the backend (and moved the host to their preferred host). So i can't see how they own the content / data as they havent added any content. (thats my job now anyway with Drupal) I think i can just transfer the domain to another host if i like. With my master login for Drupal which i have anyway. Surely im free to go where i like ?

Interesting perspective...as the system is open source...the code should be available to everyone...question is, if somebody, then, customises the source code, do they then own it?
There is generally a license attached to the use of the open source code.
This license will say that you can't modify the code and then resell the entire thing. It will probably also specify that if you use your modified code publicly (ie stick it on a netbook and sell the netbook) then your modifications must be open sourced in turn.
Open source doesn't mean unlicensed free for all.

This is a very grey area and is different to the photographer analogy referred to.

It's like someone being able replicate the image by writing a program replicating the ones and zeros in the image (which is virtually impossible to do by the way!). The image displayed is the same, but the creation of the image is done differently. The photograph is propriertry to the photographer the recreation of the ones and zeros is 'open source'.

Replicating the ones and zero's in a digital photograph is trivially simple. You can do it with copy and paste, and that doesn't alter who owns the rights, making a copy of an image will itself have been a breach of the copyright of the photographer.

Originally all the data on the previous website was ours. All the developers have done is transferred it onto a new CM system (drupal) and given me access on the backend (and moved the host to their preferred host). So i can't see how they own the content / data as they havent added any content. (thats my job now anyway with Drupal) I think i can just transfer the domain to another host if i like. With my master login for Drupal which i have anyway. Surely im free to go where i like ?

The data is definitely yours, that's pretty much a given.
The domain is already yours.

What you need to get from the old developers is the drupal configuration and a backup of the database (to save you re-entering all the data).

You can then find somewhere to host it (unless the fasthost account can also be transferred to you), and then hire another developer/company to make whatever changes you need and to offer support. When you do that, make sure that the contract specifies the terms of the support, ie time to respond to an issue, and a time to resolution. Basically it's a service level agreement between the company and yourself.

Yes, any developments made on the Drupal system are required to be made publicly available under the GNU licence. Unless of course the developments were made in such a way that it only used the existing Drupal system as a library and didn't in any way develop the actual core Drupal system, this is actually the way you develop for a modular system such as Drupal. So any add on module could quite easily be proprietary...

As to the actual inputted data and settings, since it resides and a system owned in their name, i'm not sure you have unquestionable right to it, unless previously agreed.

You'd need a solicitor and the original contract to solve this question, but it would be an unusual contract if it didn't specify that the work done on behalf of the customer belonged to the customer.

A well-written letter should be attempted first. Like a lot of unscrupulous companies out there, they are probably trying it on and bluffing in the hope you stick with them. Lots of businesses try this on, not just web designers.

We rescued 5 such people last year form these situations and yes, the web company always played difficult but we got there in the end and got control of the website and the domain name. I think some will try and bamboozle the client with techno-nonsense, knowing damned well they wont understand or know any better, so I step in and deal direct with them and they know they can't fluff there way after that so they usually give up the goods.

I don't think there's any suggestion yet that the company would be awkward about handing over the site is there?

Not yet there isnt, I think the OP is trying to make sure they are armed with info to know their rights, just in case they play awlward. There must be something slightly amiss for the OP to be querying with us in the first place, perhaps that they havent been responding to their emails makes them believe they are less than professional.

Indizine you hit the nail on the head. The fact it takes a week sometimes more to reply to an email is my main problem (amongst a few minor bug on the site). Anyway, just had a good long chat with them and i look forward to seeing what comes back...

Interesting perspective...as the system is open source...the code should be available to everyone...question is, if somebody, then, customises the source code, do they then own it?


They own their modifications, but there are certain restrictions imposed by most open source licenses. These are very liberal restrictions compared to proprietary software.

In the case of Drupal, the core code, as well as all the contributed themes & modules on drupal.org are licensed as GPL v2. If you modify any of that code, then the original code and your modifications must also be GPL 2.

There are two big restrictions in GPL 2, but they only apply to people wanting to redistribute GPL licensed code, there are no restrictions on usage. You must release it as GPL and provide a copy of the GPL license, and you must provide access to the full source code, including all your modifications.

For a normal website you wouldn't usually want to redistribute it, so you're basically free to do as you wish. The GPL doesn't force you to become a software distributor.

Drupal has the advantage of being very modular, so you don't actually have to modify any gpl code to create a custom feature or a custom layout theme. Therefore those can be distributed separately from drupal core & any other gpl code, and released under any license that you want.

The license text is long winded, but it's quite clear, it's written in fairly plain English. There are no real grey areas in it.

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-2.0.txt

In the case of this particular website, it depends on what his web developers have sold him. The GPL doesn't force them to give him his website, if it is actually his website.

They could have just sold him a very limited license to use parts of 'their' website, it could be similar to one of these sitebuilder template sites that he's just paying a low rental on. I've no idea what kind of contract they've got him on. The fact that it is built using open source software is irrelevant if they don't want to redistribute the software. He might not have any legal right to the source code at all, depending on his contract with the developers.