Ethnic minority groups could be given new descriptions in an effort to strengthen their identity in the UK.

The government is looking at whether communities would welcome having US-style hyphenated terms such as Asian-British or Indian-British.

It is among a "range of ideas" being discussed with Muslim and other groups across the country, Home Office Minister Hazel Blears told the BBC.

Muslim groups suggested any rebranding may be potentially damaging.

Ms Blears, who has been appointed head of a new government commission on integrating minorities, is currently holding a series of talks with faith leaders to discuss concerns following the London attacks.

The government wants to see if introducing new descriptions would allow communities to show pride in both their ethnic roots and their Britishness.

"This has been raised with me by other people," Ms Blears told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

"What we have to do is have a discussion, find ways in which we can really as a whole community, as a whole society, be together on the same side - which we all are - and try and make sure we can support each other."

Second generation

In an interview with the Times, Ms Blears described the use of terms such as Italian-American or Irish-American in US society as "quite interesting".

"I am going to talk to people and ask how does that feel? It is about your identity and I think it's really important," she told the paper.

"I think it's really important, if you want a society that is really welded together, there are certain things that unite us because you are British, but you can be a bit different too."

It was unclear whether other non-Asian communities would also be part of the rebranding exercise, the Times says.


Why should people not feel they can be British - and feel that their heritage is part of what it means to be British
Yasmin Alibhai-Brown

Sir Iqbal Sacranie, general secretary of the Muslim Council of Britain, said efforts to use similar forms of identity in the past have failed.

"What of the second generations? Why should they be defined as other than British?" he told the Times.

Shadow home affairs spokesman Edward Garnier said the growing number of Asian British people in his constituency regarded themselves as British.

"They don't need a Government minister to tell them how to describe themselves," he said.

Dr Jeevan Singh Deol, a lecturer in African and Oriental studies, said using new terms would not change anything.

"It's skirting the main issue and the main issue is that these terms we use - Asian or whatever - are actually ways that we talk about colour, but we're too shy to do it," he said.

But the writer Yasmin Alibhai-Brown said she welcomed the idea, as she already thinks of herself as British Asian.

"I never use the term ethnic minority, I think that ghettoises us and I wrote several years ago we should shed it," she told the BBC.

"But the ethnic minority label is used by governments and by local authorities as a way of describing us and that in turn makes people describe themselves in those terms.

"Why should people not feel they can be British - and feel that their heritage is part of what it means to be British?"

from bbc.co.uk.

so where do you stop. Surely Asia is a big placed and it is un fair to brand Pakistanis in the same group as the Chinese. So now you can be South Asian British. But why stop there? Pakistanis and Indians don't get on all that much do they? So surely it is unfair to bracked them together along with Sri Lankans and Bengalis. So why not Inidan South Asian British?

But there are seperate religious groups in India that don't get on. I'm sure Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs wont want to be branded together either. So now we have Muslim Inidan South Asian British.

But people come from specific areas in India don't they withdifferent languages etc etc. This could go on and on.
#
And I'd just like to say that I'm not British, I'm English.

Surely you are British if you have a British Passport and if you consider yourself to be anything else you shouldn't be here!

i always though that you were the nation of your birth.

england=english
france=french

it has always confused me.

Originally posted by willman
i always though that you were the nation of your birth.

england=english
france=french

it has always confused me.

Thats the way I see it, I don't care what colour you are, if you were born here you're British, like it or not.

Originally posted by serapis
Surely you are British if you have a British Passport and if you consider yourself to be anything else you shouldn't be here!

why. I am English. England is a seperate country to Scotland, Wales etc.

England isn't a separate country to Scotland and Wales etc!

We are all British! Calling yourself English is just being trite!

We are all British subjects of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Island.

so should I term myself European then? Or from the Commonwealth? Or Human?

Great Britain was a political construct it is not a country

Originally posted by robbie

Great Britain was a political construct

So is England

being a muslim has never stopped me still clasifying myself as British. im proud to be British and a muslim.

Originally posted by Disco_Cat
So is England

yes, but Britain is a group of countries categorized and contained under the confederacy of Great Britian. Great Britain is not and will never be a country. Therefore, saying that I'm British would have as much credability of calling myself European surely?

According to someone I know who has a masters degree in World History, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Island” is the country. England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Island are provinces of our country. That’s why you don’t have an English / Scottish / Welsh or Northern Island Passport!

I hope you're not basing this all on the fact we have an England Football / Cricket or Rugby team :loopy:

Ok, I admit it, i'm confused :loopy:

Surely England is a country, the same as Wales and Scotland are countries in their own right?

The fact that we are united under 'Britain' or 'Great Britain' does not take away the fact that these are countries bound together for Government?

A friend of mine has parents who came to England from Jamacia before she was born. She was born here and calls herself British - what else would she call herself?

But how often do we refer to British people as 'African', Asian, Indian, Chinese, etc? Whether or not we know if they are British?

I can see why some people would think it is a good idea, others a bad idea and others who don't consider it to be an issue. Surely the choice should be one for the individual to make?

Originally posted by serapis
According to someone I know who has a masters degree in World History, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Island” is the country. England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Island are provinces of our country. That’s why you don’t have an English / Scottish / Welsh or Northern Island Passport!

I hope you're not basing this all on the fact we have an England Football / Cricket or Rugby team :loopy:

There's a similar thread along this vein also 'happening' at the moment Serapis, and it's also got a poll. You should check it out - and last time I looked, a lot of people had voted that they consider themselves English.

This is obviously one of Tony Blair's sillier ideas about dealing with ethnic minorities. In fact it's so silly he's given the job to one of his minor minions to deal with while he's away on holiday, probably to avoid the embarrassment. :suspect:

I notice in the papers today that David Blunket and John Prescott are in joint charge of the country whilst senior ministers are on their hols, - it's a bit like having Caligula and Claudius as joint Roman Emporers. :P

Blunket is already sounding off about the judiciary not interfering with the proposed new measures to deal with terrorism, - I thought he was in charge of pensions :rolleyes:

At the risk of going off thread (sorry mod's)

Surely if Prescott is the Deputy Prime-minister, he should take charge when Blair is absent? Isn't that what a deputy normal does?

I can see having an absent boss is going to the heads of some of these MP's - trying to make significant changes in order to gain Brownie points.

Perhaps instead of a Blue Peter badge, they'll get a Blair Puppet badge? :hihi:

Originally posted by JBee
There's a similar thread along this vien also 'happening' at the moment Serapis, and it's also got a poll. You should check it out - and last time I looked, a lot of people had voted that they consider themselves English.

I know there is another thread but this one was started first and as they say, never fight a battle on two fronts.

England WAS a country along with Wales and Scotland but they are now one country called "The United Kingdom of Great Britain", once we invaded Ireland and after the vote on independence there it was renamed to "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". As Northern Ireland wanted to stay part of Great Britain.

There are many countries that are broken up and separated by more than old boarders. Take China for instance, they have so many different cultures, religions, languages and social groups that, but they are all Chinese! And Russia for that matter!

You are what your passport says you are and mine says "British Citizen".

I understand there has been devolution but there is no English Parliament nor is there an English Passport. This doesn’t detract from someone’s personal feelings on where they belong or what social group they feel connected too.

Originally posted by serapis

I understand there has been devolution but there is no English Parliament nor is there an English Passport.

But there's a Scottish parliment. And a Welsh assembly.

Originally posted by JBee
But there's a Scottish parliment. And a Welsh assembly.

Is there a Scottish Passport? or a Welsh one for that matter?

Neither is in outright control of the country. Whitehall and the Parliament on London is still in control and can take back full control at any time. The same way they did with the Northern Irish regional assembly.

Does either Scotland or Wales have a separate head of state or a President or a Pri-minister?

Originally posted by serapis
According to someone I know who has a masters degree in World History, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Island” is the country. England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Island are provinces of our country. That’s why you don’t have an English / Scottish / Welsh or Northern Island Passport!

I hope you're not basing this all on the fact we have an England Football / Cricket or Rugby team :loopy:

Eh? You seem to be confusing your terms.

England is a country within the United Kingdom. It's no longer a political entity, hence the lack of English passports.

Originally posted by Greenback
Eh? You seem to be confusing your terms.

England is a country within the United Kingdom. It's no longer a political entity, hence the lack of English passports.

What terms are they Greanback?

Originally posted by serapis
What terms are they Greanback?

To be honest I stopped caring after my last reply! It's turned into a pretty tedious thread in truth.

You can rebrand all you want,its irelevant to me,either you love this country or you dont,if you dont then please leave.;)

Originally posted by royjames
You can rebrand all you want,its irelevant to me,either you love this country or you dont,if you dont then please leave.;)

*gets coat*

We've gone totally off topic as well.

What difference does it make where the parliment is? The UK is still made up of four nations - England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Loosing our identities could get really dull.

But back on topic - I don't think renaming certain ethnic groups will stop people blowing each other up. It might waste a lot of time and money though.

Just to clarify.

"England is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain, consisting of Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. In the early 1700's a treaty was signed combining all three into a single country with a single ruler, a single prime minister, and a single parliament. Because all three countries united and became one, all subsequent countries became parts of one country, and can be referred to as regions, not countries."

England is a region of Great Britain and Great Britain or to use its official title, The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a country.

So we are British, but if you want to call yourself English, that’s your choice. A wrong one but still your choice.

Roy, I cant argue against that!

Originally posted by royjames
You can rebrand all you want,its irelevant to me,either you love this country or you dont,if you dont then please leave.;)

which country?

Originally posted by serapis
Just to clarify.

"England is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain, consisting of Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. In the early 1700's a treaty was signed combining all three into a single country with a single ruler, a single prime minister, and a single parliment. Because all three countries united and became one, all subsequent countries became parts of one country, and can be referred to as regions, not countries."

England is a region of Great Britain and Great Britain or to use its official title, The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Nothern Ireland is a country.

Yawn.

What does this have to do with the topic Serapis? You just seem to be saying the same thing over and over, in various ways.

This is getting too dull for words. I'm logging off now.

Originally posted by serapis
So we are British, but if you want to call yourself English, that’s your choice. A wrong one but still your choice.

Roy, I cant argue against that!

One more point... If you're born in England, how can it be 'wrong' to call yourself English?

I'm a Sheffielder too. Or would you say that's incorrect?

What's wrong with having a cultural identity?

Right. I'm definitely leaving now.

*****Leaves******

The way I understand it is the difference between a country and a nation.

England and Scotland are countries. This is why, when asked your country of birth, you say England or Scotland. (I'm not omitting Wales to be awkward - I genuinely don't know whether it's officially a country or not).

But the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a nation, consisting of a number of countries. Your nationality refers to your nation, NOT your country.

EDIT: I know sports contradict what I've said (Six Nations, National Squad, and so on....) but then Britain is in a very unique situation with regard to what a country and a nation is - to other countries, they're one and the same.

Originally posted by JBee
Yawn.

What does this have to do with the topic Serapis? You just seem to be saying the same thing over and over, in various ways.

This is getting too dull for words. I'm logging off now.

It’s funny how once I give a some what detailed (not to a great depth mind) responses to yours and others misplaced arguments that England is a country, all of a sudden you want to "get back on subject".

I suppose it’s the only you can concede defeat without actually saying it!

Originally posted by royjames
either you love this country or you dont,

So if Asians want to call themselves British is that ok by you?, or do you stick to the BNP dog stable line on this?

Originally posted by serapis
Just to clarify.

"England is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain, consisting of Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. In the early 1700's a treaty was signed combining all three into a single country with a single ruler, a single prime minister, and a single parliament. Because all three countries united and became one, all subsequent countries became parts of one country, and can be referred to as regions, not countries."

England is a region of Great Britain and Great Britain or to use its official title, The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a country.

So we are British, but if you want to call yourself English, that’s your choice. A wrong one but still your choice.

Roy, I cant argue against that!

No, it's not wrong to call yourself English.

At all.

Politically, there is no distinct identity, but culturally and historically there certainly is. Is that too difficult to comprehend?

And as for Roy's point about you either having to "love this country" or get out, it seems a very neat way of removing dissent. Personally I'd rather live in a country where people are able to argue against authority – but maybe that's just me and my fancy liberal wishy-washy ideas, eh?

Originally posted by RichD
The way I understand it is the difference between a country and a nation.

England and Scotland are countries. This is why, when asked your country of birth, you say England or Scotland. (I'm not omitting Wales to be awkward - I genuinely don't know whether it's officially a country or not).

But the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a nation, consisting of a number of countries. Your nationality refers to your nation, NOT your country.

RichD,

I suggest you go get your passport and take a look at the bit where it says Nationality.

Originally posted by Greenback
I'd rather live in a country where people are able to argue against authority


Hippy

Originally posted by Disco_Cat
Hippy
PMSL :D

Originally posted by Disco_Cat
Hippy

Quite :P

Originally posted by Greenback
No, it's not wrong to call yourself English.

At all.

Politically, there is no distinct identity, but culturally and historically there certainly is. Is that too difficult to comprehend?

And as for Roy's point about you either having to "love this country" or get out, it seems a very neat way of removing dissent. Personally I'd rather live in a country where people are able to argue against authority – but maybe that's just me and my fancy liberal wishy-washy ideas, eh?
Greenback,

No its not wrong to call yourself English, thats fine. This discussion is about whether or not England is a country or Great Britain is country.

Originally posted by JBee
One more point... If you're born in England, how can it be 'wrong' to call yourself English?

I'm a Sheffielder too. Or would you say that's incorrect?

What's wrong with having a cultural identity?

Right. I'm definitely leaving now.

*****Leaves******
It's not 'wrong' to call yourself English. Someone or something from England is indeed English.

But it's wrong to say your nationality is English. Like it or not, you're as British as I am, and I'm not from England. :)

Originally posted by Disco_Cat
Hippy

When I die
please let me lie
in a corner of a foreign field
that is forever Woodstock

Originally posted by serapis
This discussion is about whether or not England is a country or Great Britain is country.



I thought this was the discussion about whether Irish people should call themselves Irish -British as in Irish- American.


EDIT: Sorry British Asian

Originally posted by serapis
RichD,

I suggest you go get your passport and take a look at the bit where it says Nationality.
I suggest you re-read my post and get the right end of the stick. :) I'm agreeing that our nationality is British, not disagreeing.

My passport says:
Nationality: British Citizen.
Country of Birth: Scotland.

And I agree wholeheartedly with it.

England isn't even a real country, just the political union of three countries, like the Netherlands or something.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
England isn't even a real country, just the political union of three countries, like the Netherlands or something.

Eh?

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
England isn't even a real country, just the political union of three countries, like the Netherlands or something.

And what three countries make up England may I ask? :D :D :D

Originally posted by RichD
I suggest you re-read my post and get the right end of the stick. :) I'm agreeing that our nationality is British, not disagreeing.

My passport says:
Nationality: British Citizen.
Country of Birth: Scotland.

And I agree wholeheartedly with it.

OOPs, I got too used to everyone jumping up and down on me I retaliated out of instinct!

Sorry :D :D :D

Originally posted by serapis
And what three countries make up England may I ask? :D :D :D

South, Midlands and North

Originally posted by Disco_Cat
South, Midlands and North

:hihi:

I think the thread has gone of at a tangent slightly.

In answer to the original question, i'd disagree with it. If you take on a British passport you are British. Yes a person can be a Muslim but that person is British.

Originally posted by serapis
And what three countries make up England may I ask? :D :D :D
Depends which American you ask... :D

Originally posted by youwhatref
:hihi:

I think the thread has gone of at a tangent slightly.


To me going down South feels like I'm going into a foreign country, you try ordering a breadcake in Canterbury and see what they give you. I feel more Northern then I do English, I feel a lot more at home in Scotland then I do in the South of my own country.

Originally posted by Disco_Cat
To me going down South feels like I'm going into a foreign country, you try ordering a breadcake in Canterbury and see what they give you. I feel more Northern then I do English, I feel a lot more at home in Scotland then I do in the South of my own country.

You're spot on Disco_cat. Once you get so far down South then i feel in a totally differently country. Firstly many are foreign and secondly i'm looked on as an outsider. I remember Jade on Big Brother wondering about this other country outside London. People deemed her thick which although true, i often thought that many down there are the same. I think the Yanks can be the same and often forget there's other countries out there and that London is a country! (but all this is for another thread! :D )

Originally posted by youwhatref
You're spot on Disco_cat. Once you get so far down South then i feel in a totally differently country. Firstly many are foreign and secondly i'm looked on as an outsider. I remember Jade on Big Brother wondering about this other country outside London. People deemed her thick which although true, i often thought that many down there are the same. I think the Yanks can be the same and often forget there's other countries out there and that London is a country! (but all this is for another thread! :D )
I've lived down down here for over twenty years and never been made to feel like a "Outsider"

Originally posted by serapis
And what three countries make up England may I ask? :D :D :D

Sorry, seven, not three. Although three main ones and four others that did not quite have the same status.

So I guess I am Scano-mercian.

Originally posted by serapis
I suggest you go get your passport and take a look at the bit where it says Nationality.

Since you insist on banging on about passports Serapis, I've had a look at mine.

It says...

Nationality: British citizen
Country of Birth: England.

I repeat.... COUNTRY of birth: England.

So even my passport (which seems to be your main authoratitive source in this arguement) seems to think that England is a country.

So while you are right in saying that nationality for form-filling purposes should be British, there is also technically nothing wrong with defining yourself with the word 'English', should you so wish.

Also... you seem to be back-tracking slightly... in one of your earlier posts (second page I think) you said it was "wrong" to call yourself English, but in later posts, when questioned, you seemed to change your mind.

But surely whether or not you like to be refered to as English/British/Scottish or whatever, we're slightly missing the point. All those terms pledge allegiance to our homeland (appologies for the Americanism, but it seems fitting here), and that's what this thread is about.

I think it's a bit silly to insist that people with a cultural background richer than mine (all descendants within memory from Sheffield) suddenly start referring to themselves as British Asian or similar.

But I suppose it would be nice if people gave a nod to their country of birth without prompting. Up here in Scotland I've met a few Asian folk who refer to themselves as Scottish Muslims by choice, and I think that's rather nice. It's a nod to their place of birth, and cultural heritage/religion.

I am unsure if I should be labelled British, Asian, Asian-British, or British-Asian, or Arabic, or any combination of the above (British-Arabic-Asian has a nice ring to it, and can be abbreviated to BAA).

Originally posted by JBee
Nationality: British citizen
Country of Birth: England.

I repeat.... COUNTRY of birth: England.

Also... you seem to be back-tracking slightly... in one of your earlier posts (second page I think) you said it was "wrong" to call yourself English, but in later posts, when questioned, you seemed to change your mind.

My only reason for saying England isn't a country wasn't solely from what your passport says, that was only to point out nationality.

The reason England isn't a county is because there is no English government. You can't have an English passport. There's no English team at the Olympics, England doesn't have a seat at the United Nations. In effect both England and Scotland (Wales was a principality) subsumed their identities after the Act of Union of 1707, which created The United Kingdom of Great Britain. The only reason why England and Scotland are referred to as countries is for historic reasons.

Name another country without all of the above and I will accept your argument ... but just saying it is because you say so doesn't cut it with me JBee!

I’m not back tracking either, people are entitled to there own opinion and to call themselves what ever they like, whether or not you think it’s wrong or I.

so if you go to spain and settle there get citizenship - you are spanish ? would you call yourself spanish or british
you have kids in spain - they learn english and spanish - are they english or spanish ?
brits in spain - do we not see british flags ? do they somehow stop calling themselves brits if they got spanish nationality