Some Muslim clerics have advised their women to ditch their head scarves and other items of traditional dress to avoid becoming targets of abuse.

Some see this suggestion as giving in to the racists, but in some ways it makes sense, I feel.

Just as no one objects when western women are advised not to wear short skirts or other provocative clothing in Islamic counties, surely in these tense times it's sensible for Muslims not to dress in a way that would invite aggression.

Are they advising black people in Huyton, Liverpool to paint their faces white too?

The irony is that when the suicide bombers are nearing the time of their attack, they too ditch all signs of being muslim and do everything to look 'normal' and not stand out.

I see your point but I have to say that I don't think they should give in to the racists at all. If that was my way of life I wouldn't change it & would think "Why the Hell should I?".

People should wear what they want. Not bow down to these people.

Originally posted by sham71
Are they advising black people in Huyton, Liverpool to paint their faces white too?

The irony is that when the suicide bombers are nearing the time of their attack, they too ditch all signs of being muslim and do everything to look 'normal' and not stand out. " normal"? get your flak jacket and kevlar helmet on ready,:smile:

Originally posted by mojoworking
Some Muslim clerics have advised their women to ditch their head scarves and other items of traditional dress to avoid becoming targets of abuse...
Now, I don't know much about this subject, but I thought that people wore this "garb" because it was a religious necessity...

...and yet Muslim clerics of all people are suggesting that it should be "dropped" to avoid a bit of grief.

Surely this report must be wrong.

:huh:

Originally posted by foo_fighter
Now, I don't know much about this subject, but I thought that people wore this "garb" because it was a religious necessity...

...and yet Muslim clerics of all people are suggesting that it should be "dropped" to avoid a bit of grief.

Surely this report must be wrong.

:huh:

No, it's correct. It was the subject of a debate on BBC Radio Five Live this morning. The headgear is optional, it seems.

they shouldn't feel like they have to do it, I can dress how I like, so I don't see why they shouldn't.

I'd think it was a good thing if they decided for themselves that they'll dress how they like and tell their clerics to mind their own business.

This is due to racist attacks rapidly increasing in London on muslims. I think it is a sensible suggestion by the clerics - better to not have a scarf on then to be a target for chav gangs.

It really is a sorry state of affairs, These nincompoop bombers were brainwashed into terrorist attacks in the name of Islam, not only was that completely wrong - but because of their actions muslim women are now being told not to dress like muslims.

It's not worked - it's backfired and they are a total embarrassment to the rest of the muslim faith.

They should let them wear what they wish. If i went to another country i woudl wear my clothes. When it comes to schools and other buildings then they should follow the rules imposed (but that's another matter!)

unfortunately the wearing of the head scarf does not purely signify they are muslim, this is an optional extra that depends on the individual.
so by not wearing it, their cleric is not telling them not to dress like a muslim.
unfortunately however it does make them an easy target - like wearing red & white on the kop @ Hillsborough.

You will find that in certain countries there are rule imposed in which yes you can wear your own clothes but, women in particular, do have to be more covered up than you would have to be in our country.

Originally posted by Lestat
This is due to racist attacks rapidly increasing in London on muslims. I think it is a sensible suggestion by the clerics - better to not have a scarf on then to be a target for chav gangs.

It really is a sorry state of affairs, These nincompoop bombers were brainwashed into terrorist attacks in the name of Islam, not only was that completely wrong - but because of their actions muslim women are now being told not to dress like muslims.

It's not worked - it's backfired and they are a total embarrassment to the rest of the muslim faith.

Totally agree. A more appropriate question might be whether Muslims should integrate with our 'western' society/culture.

I reckon that would be a better proposition.

I suppose it's a sensible suggestion for the purpose of safety, but it seems a shame that we're in this position.

Mind you, I used to be partial to going out in public wearing a pirate-style 3-cornered hat, :P and I knocked that on the head after getting abuse as well as physical violence (though that was in Ipswich, chav capital of the world). We all have to give up bits of our freedom here and there. :mad:

Originally posted by Ousetunes
Totally agree. A more appropriate question might be whether Muslims should integrate with our 'western' society/culture.

I reckon that would be a better proposition.

how is wearing what they want too not integrating?

What is 'normal' english clothing? Shell suit, jeans and t-shirt from matalan, trousers and shirt, suit, dinner jacket, smoking jacket and pipe? Or maybe a flat cap, wellies, oilskin jacket. Or designer labels, cartier and versace?

Originally posted by Cyclone
how is wearing what they want too not integrating?

What is 'normal' english clothing? Shell suit, jeans and t-shirt from matalan, trousers and shirt, suit, dinner jacket, smoking jacket and pipe? Or maybe a flat cap, wellies, oilskin jacket. Or designer labels, cartier and versace?


I think you've misinterpreted my comment.

What I am trying to say is that what Muslims wear is totally irrelevant - they, like the rest of us, should have the freedom to wear whatever they want.

But if we want to improve relations with Muslims in this country, then I believe (and I stress it's MY opinion) certain of them ought to try harder to integrate with the communities they live and work in.

Maybe I should have stuck to the main thread here, but I believe the biggest problem in certain places is that there is an apparent 'us' and 'them' mentality which isn't helped by a lack of dialogue and integration.

As for 'normal' english clothing, I suggest a teddy bear outfit like Bungle in Rainbow.

Lestat got it right in saying that if Muslims are forced to change the way they dress, then the so-called Muslim fanatics have won. No one should be pressured to change the way they dress and the way they live for that matter.

Hmmm, never looked into this before, it really is a contentious issue isn't it...

...I thought these two snippets were interesting:
...Political scientist Nilufer Narli of Kadir Has University believes the headscarf wearers are making a very public political statement.
"In the modern urban context, it is more a political symbol," she says.
"It is a sign of solidarity with the Islamist groups."...
Source BBC, link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3513259.stm

Unveiled women anger Saudi cleric
Saudi Arabia's highest religious authority has issued a stern rebuke to women who appeared at a conference unveiled in the presence of men.
Grand Mufti Sheikh Abdul-Aziz al-Sheikh said the women's behaviour was shameful and warned of "grave consequences".
His remarks came after the country's leading businesswoman made a speech without a headscarf at an economic forum in the Red Sea port of Jeddah...

Source BBC, link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3415757.stm

Interestingly, in Turkey (a Muslim country) wearing a head scarf is banned in "public" places, such as universities, gov't buildings, schools...

...and yet in Saudi Arabia women "must" wear one.

Interesting, but I'm still confused.

:confused:

obviously being a muslim doesn't dictate to have to wear the scarf , it is an optional extra that can be worn if it is part of "your" faith - not the muslim faith.

( i would use the correct name but i can't spell it)
I suppose it could be likened to christians wearing a crucifix as recognition of thier faith.

Surely the sort of person to attack/abuse a Muslim woman wearing the scarf is just a likely to to the same because of the colour of their skin.

They probably just want to attack/abuse someone because they are different and the scarf is just an escuse.

Originally posted by mojoworking
it's sensible for Muslims not to dress in a way that would invite aggression.

How exactly does a women wearing a Hijab invite aggression?

I have a friend whose daughter chooses to wear more traditional dress in her social time but has to wear a more subtle headscarf to school because of the bullying she receives. One of the most common taunts is that she is being repressed into wearing the head scarf against her wishes, when the reality is she is wearing it against her wishes but only because she is being forced to do so because of the aggression and hostility she would face wearing her preferred dress.

I think we need to do more to tackle the people in out society who see a women wearing a Hijab as being an invitation to commit acts of aggression, rather then focusing efforts on dictating what women can and cannot wear.

It occured to me lasy night while I was soaking in the bath [hmmm, lovely] and I was listening to the news at 10 on radio4 when they were discussing the Hijab? (apologies if I have spelled it wrong)

What is the difference between a Muslim Woman's Black cloak with just her face appearing from it, and a traditional Black Nun's Habit.

Very little I should think.
And I have never heard of anyone saying that nuns should be liberated from this form of dress, or that they should wear more modern dress.

And what is a Nun's habit than a traditional cloak which covers up a woman's body so that she is thought of as a religious person rather than a woman who may appear sexy or attractive. Surely it is exactly the same. She is covering herself so that she can concentrate on her own meditations and stricter religious lifestyle. And to stop people approaching her for any other reason other than religious or practical discussion.

Originally posted by willman
obviously being a muslim doesn't dictate to have to wear the scarf , it is an optional extra that can be worn if it is part of "your" faith - not the muslim faith.

( i would use the correct name but i can't spell it)
I suppose it could be likened to christians wearing a crucifix as recognition of thier faith.
Not according to this chap (posted above):
Unveiled women anger Saudi cleric
Saudi Arabia's highest religious authority has issued a stern rebuke to women who appeared at a conference unveiled in the presence of men.
Grand Mufti Sheikh Abdul-Aziz al-Sheikh said the women's behaviour was shameful and warned of "grave consequences".
His remarks came after the country's leading businesswoman made a speech without a headscarf at an economic forum in the Red Sea port of Jeddah...
Source BBC, link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3415757.stm


Edit to add
Originally posted by muddycoffee
...What is the difference between a Muslim Woman's Black cloak with just her face appearing from it, and a traditional Black Nun's Habit.

Very little I should think...
Well one difference is that not all Catholic women are expected to wear a nuns outfit…

…but I would have thought the biggest difference was that a nun "chooses" to as part of her faith, whereas, according to the chap above every woman must, believer or not...

...but note, not all Muslims actually agree with him.

Originally posted by muddycoffee

What is the difference between a Muslim Woman's Black cloak with just her face appearing from it, and a traditional Black Nun's Habit.


Their was an experiment a few years ago where they showed a group of people a picture of a Nun in a Habit and asked them to say the first words that came into their heads, purity, divinity and holy were the most common.

Then they repeated it with a picture of a Muslim women in a Hijab except this time the response was, repressed, extremist, controlled and dominated

Originally posted by Disco_Cat
Their was an experiment a few years ago where they showed a group of people a picture of a Nun in a Habit and asked them to say the first words that came into their heads, purity, divinity and holy were the most common.

Then they repeated it with a picture of a Muslim women in a Hijab except this time the response was, repressed, extremist, controlled and dominated
Disco,
thanks for that you confirm exactly my argument..

I rest my case.

Originally posted by Disco_Cat
...Then they repeated it with a picture of a Muslim women in a Hijab except this time the response was, repressed, extremist, controlled and dominated
Interestingly, some women, including Muslim women would agree:
Rachida Ziouche, a journalist, is the daughter of an Algerian imam who has been living in exile in France since fleeing her homeland.

Where I live, in a small town in France, girls and young women are intimidated by Muslim men who oblige them to wear the scarf. These Muslim women are often isolated, and need some protection. The law to outlaw the veil goes some way towards addressing this need.
Of course there has been criticism - some people say that France is discriminating against its Muslim community, trying to stop them from being themselves. I simply do not believe this to be the case. France wants its people to live together, celebrating their diversity, but it also has a secular tradition to protect - one which seeks to keep religion from the public sphere. And anybody who says that it is removing their religious freedoms, I say this: do you really believe a four-year-old is wearing the headscarf by choice?
I strongly believe that people coming from the Middle East to live in Europe must adhere to the law of the land and respect the traditions of the country they have come to live in. Many of the people who come seem to think that the only person they have to obey is God.
Others say that the veil is the wrong target - that the real issue is the alienation of the Muslim community in France, poverty and unemployment. The two are not mutually exclusive. The government must certainly act on the economic issues, but it must also try to alleviate the oppression of young Muslim women.


Alice Schwarzer is a prominent German feminist.

This issue is about the constitution, and the division between state and religion - a hard fought for achievement of the enlightenment. The weakening of this division is utterly incomprehensible, particularly as it comes at a time when the worldwide offensive of the theocrats is not just making countries with Muslim majorities subservient to their inhumane "holy laws", but is also threatening democracies worldwide. Countries like France have long grasped the consequences of this.
The Green politician in charge of immigrant affairs, Marieluise Beck has the cheek to warn of a "demonisation" of the headscarf, that a ban on headscarves in schools will "push Muslim women into the hands of Islamic fundamentalists". In fact the opposite is the case: the passiveness of politicians leaves the majority of Muslim women in Germany powerless against the militant minority of fundamentalists.

Source BBC, link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3459963.stm

I don't see how what they wear would effect it either way - if people are going to discriminate they'll do it whatever they were wearing...

If it was as simple as what they were wearing, don't you think they'd have sussed it by now?

Originally posted by Disco_Cat
How exactly does a women wearing a Hijab invite aggression?


That's the whole point of the thread! Following the London bombings, attacks on Muslim targets have gone up by 600%

Originally posted by mojoworking
That's the whole point of the thread! Following the London bombings, attacks on Muslim targets have gone up by 600%

Yes, but I think the objection to the phrasing "invites aggression" is that it implies that women wearing a Hijab are somehow responsible for attacks on them, thus taking the blame away from from the small-mined idiots actually carrying out the attacks.

Originally posted by Ousetunes
But if we want to improve relations with Muslims in this country, then I believe (and I stress it's MY opinion) certain of them ought to try harder to integrate with the communities they live and work in.



Couldn't agree more:thumbsup:

Originally posted by Kittenkel
Couldn't agree more:thumbsup:

Integrate more??

So other than, work in the same office's, live in the same cities, speak the same language, have friends etc.... that are christian....what more integration do you mean.

I think I know.

You want them to wear make up like slappers, wear short skirts and get drunk on a Friday / Saturday night, go clubbing.

Thats the 'Integrate more' you're after. Unfortunately, you'll find that muslim girls/women have alot more respect for themselves than to do this every weekend.

Originally posted by Lestat
...You want them to wear make up like slappers, wear short skirts and get drunk on a Friday / Saturday night, go clubbing.

Thats the 'Integrate more' you're after. Unfortunately, you'll find that muslim girls/women have alot more respect for themselves than to do this every weekend.
Are you suggesting that every woman who is not a devout Muslim does do these things every Friday / Saturday ?

:confused:

Originally posted by foo_fighter
Are you suggesting that every woman who is not a devout Muslim does do these things every Friday / Saturday ?

:confused:

I'd say most of em, yes.

Originally posted by Lestat
I'd say most of em, yes.

Surely this is a prime example of the kind of racism, prejudice and intolerance on both sides that causes such friction between Muslims and non-Muslims in this country?

How can you possibly say that most non-Muslim women are slappers because they wear make-up and go out on Friday nights?

That is possibly one of the most ridiculous and ill-founded statements I've ever heard, and I'd really like to see you try to back it up with any solid facts.

I suspect you'll struggle.

Originally posted by Lestat
I'd say most of em, yes.
Sheffield, population 500 000

Over 50% female

Plus visitors from the surrounding “countryside”.

So most of 300 000 women are "in town" getting "drunk"...

...no wonder it's busy, and the hospitals can't cope.

:suspect:

Originally posted by Lestat
Integrate more??

So other than, work in the same office's, live in the same cities, speak the same language, have friends etc.... that are christian....what more integration do you mean.


Fellow Sheffielders, I agree with Lestat here.

Muslims are always being told to integrate more, but would somebody please spell out to us exactly what this integration involves?

I thought it would be more or less the above - working and living alongside each other, wearing similar clothes, having the same interests and speaking the same language as the rest of you.

How much more integrated could I be?

I think sham71 has the answer:

Originally posted by sham71
Are they advising black people in Huyton, Liverpool to paint their faces white too?

Originally posted by JBee
That is possibly one of the most ridiculous and ill-founded statements I've ever heard, and I'd really like to see you try to back it up with any solid facts.

I suspect you'll struggle.

It's abit like the ill-founded statement 'Integrate more'. . . . . Can you back up a statement that tells people to integrate more when they have lived all their lives, work hard, speak the same language, eat the same food to suddenly - 'integrate more'.

I think you'll struggle too.

Thats my point - it's easy to say stupid things, when in reality, it makes no sense whatsoever.

Hello Abdul :wave:

When going about your business in Sheffield, or indeed any other major city, you tend to seen groups of people from only one race/ethnic background.

For example, white youths hanging around on street corners, Muslim youths hanging around on street corners, little old white ladies queuing at the busstop, Muslim ladies in traditional dress queuing at the busstop, chinese youngsters walking to college, ect. ect.

I think to some extent black and white people often mix together, but other groups often stay seperate.

Wouldn't it be wonderful to walk through the city and see peer groups of various ages, made up of lots of different races, happily going about their business together?

I don't know how this can be achieved, and it's something all races should work hard to achieve, but that's what I think of when I think of intergration.

Am I correct in assuming that you are Muslim? If so then I'd be very interested to hear you views on the topic of this thread (headscalves).

Originally posted by Abdul
Fellow Sheffielders, I agree with Lestat here.

Muslims are always being told to integrate more, but would somebody please spell out to us exactly what this integration involves?...

I hope you don't agree with Lestats opinion of most non-Muslim women, but I digress.

One of the most often levelled complaints regarding non-integration is the formation of separate communities...

...whole areas made up of a majority of certain distinct ethnic groups, whose make-up is contrary to the "average" mix of this country in a wholly disproportionate way.

Could that be what people are referring to?

:confused:

Originally posted by Lestat
It's abit like the ill-founded statement 'Integrate more'. . . . . Can you back up a statement that tells people to integrate more when they have lived all their lives, work hard, speak the same language, eat the same food to suddenly - 'integrate more'.

I think you'll struggle too.

Thats my point - it's easy to say stupid things, when in reality, it makes no sense whatsoever.

When have I said 'intergrate more' Lestat?

I really don't think you can answer my question by asking me to account for a point made by somebody else! :loopy:

If you read the post I've just written to Abdul, you'll see some of my views on 'intergration', and you'll also see that I don't think it's something that should be laid soley at the doors of Muslims.

It's up to EVERYBODY in this country to find a way to live and work happily with everyone else, regardless of race, but making rash statements about all British women being slutty and having no self-respect certainly isn't going to help.

Originally posted by JBee
When have I said 'intergrate more' Lestat?

I really don't think you can answer my question by asking me to account for a point made by somebody else! :loopy:

If you read the post I've just written to Abdul, you'll see some of my views on 'intergration', and you'll also see that I don't think it's something that should be laid soley at the doors of Muslims.

It's up to EVERYBODY in this country to find a way to live and work happily with everyone else, regardless of race, but making rash statements about all British women being slutty and having no self-respect certainly isn't going to help.

When did I say YOU made the statement?? :confused:

The post you've just made to Abdul, you want people to go about their business together and stand at bus stops together. :confused: :loopy:

Sorry but this already happens . . . .

As for trying to back myself up - for a start - try reading your sig.

Originally posted by Lestat
When did I say YOU made the statement...
To be fair, it did read like that when you quoted JBee, and then wrote
Originally posted by Lestat
It's abit like the ill-founded statement 'Integrate more'. . . . . Can you back up a statement that tells people to integrate more when ...
and you still haven't explained the obviously inflammatory statement you made about most non-Muslim women.

:nono:

Originally posted by foo_fighter
and you still haven't explained the obviously inflammatory statement you made about most non-Muslim women.

:nono:

I was trying to get a point across by saying something stupid . . . . . . :loopy: :loopy: like the 'Integrate more' statement.

You may now sit down and stop pulling your hair out.

Originally posted by Lestat
Integrate more??

speak the same language



You want them to wear make up like slappers, wear short skirts and get drunk on a Friday / Saturday night, go clubbing.

Thats the 'Integrate more' you're after. Unfortunately, you'll find that muslim girls/women have alot more respect for themselves than to do this every weekend.

Lestat, a gross misjudgement.

I would not expect anyone inparticular to dress 'like slappers, wear short skirts and get drunk on a Friday night'.

I know from personal experience - which I needn't discuss here- that there a people who live in this country who don't speak a word of English, don't intend to learn and do not wish to integrate at all with our western ideals.

I believe it is such people who make what is termed multiculturalism a difficult area. How can we break down barriers when the people whom we are extending an arm to are the ones creating and keeping these barriers?

As you may have read on an earlier post, I fully support Muslim women's rights to wear whatever they choose and to not dress like the rest of us just because they've become targets of abuse.

Yes, I respect their wishes but quite where you're coming from thinking I'd expect them to dress like tarts shows a lack of respect towards ME on your part.

Originally posted by Lestat
When did I say YOU made the statement?? :confused:

The post you've just made to Abdul, you want people to go about their business together and stand at bus stops together. :confused: :loopy:

Sorry but this already happens . . . .

As for trying to back myself up - for a start - try reading your sig.

Ahhh... of course. Vodka and Chocolete. Two of the most evil and corrupt substances known to mankind. :loopy:

How about just answering my origional question? How can you justify the statement that MOST British women wear make-up like slappers, short skirts, and go out on Friday nights?

And as for my comment to Abdul - I would like to see much more of this behaviour. I want us all to live together happily and in harmony. What on earth is wrong with that?

Originally posted by Lestat
I was trying to get a point across by saying something stupid . . . . . . :loopy: :loopy: like the 'Integrate more' statement.

You may now sit down and stop pulling your hair out.

Yikes... Lestat... We might as well just pass you a shovel!

You say something very inflamatroy (in short, British women are tarty), then you try desperately to back-peddle when you realise you can't back it up, by claiming you were just trying to provoke a reaction, and then you take a swipe at my signature, presumably because it represents something about women you don't like!

Digging such a huge hole for yourself must be thirsy work... Perhaps I could get you a vodka?!!! :D

As an occasional wearer of atypical clothing I hate the idea of anyone wearing clothes that they don't want to merely to fit in and avoid abuse. If a muslim woman wants to wear traditional dress then they should be free to do so and safe on the streets - and the same applies if they don't want to wear it. I really can't see why people get so stressed about what other care to wrap round their bodies!

Originally posted by Lestat
I was trying to get a point across by saying something stupid . . . . . . :loopy: :loopy: like the 'Integrate more' statement.

You may now sit down and stop pulling your hair out.
Ahhh, that's OK then...

...so it was a bit like saying "I'm not a racist, but..."

Glad to see that you haven't changed the habit of a lifetime, and still resort to :loopy: smilies, and personal digs instead of reasoned debate.

:shakes:

Now, can we get back to the topic of traditional Muslim dress "in public" before this thread gets closed down...

...please.

Originally posted by evildrneil
As an occasional wearer of atypical clothing I hate the idea of anyone wearing clothes that they don't want to merely to fit in and avoid abuse. If a muslim woman wants to wear traditional dress then they should be free to do so and safe on the streets - and the same applies if they don't want to wear it. I really can't see why people get so stressed about what other care to wrap round their bodies!

Good post :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

lets clear a few things up. wearing a hijab is NOT optional, you have to do it. so the people who are suggesting muslim women shouldnt wear it, well they can jump off the nearest cliff! so because of these attacks should the people in london move out and live elswhere? no.. because these attacks can happen to anyone at any time. should black people start wearing white masks? the people attacking muslims are the same as the terrorists, targetting innocent people.

Originally posted by salma
lets clear a few things up. wearing a hijab is NOT optional, you have to do it.

Can you please elaborate ? . . . .

Originally posted by salma
lets clear a few things up. wearing a hijab is NOT optional,

I beg to differ.

Originally posted by salma
lets clear a few things up. wearing a hijab is NOT optional, you have to do it. so the people who are suggesting muslim women shouldnt wear it, well they can jump off the nearest cliff! so because of these attacks should the people in london move out and live elswhere? no.. because these attacks can happen to anyone at any time. should black people start wearing white masks? the people attacking muslims are the same as the terrorists, targetting innocent people.

Salma, this is a serious question, not a dig... I was always under the impression that Hijabs were optional. How do you know they arn't? Does the Quran tell Muslim women to wear them?

Like I said, that's not a dig at all. I'm genuinely interested, so if you know the facts do tell....

Also I agree with your point that people who target Muslim/mosques ect. are also terrorists, because by definition terrorism is harming innocent people.

Good point :thumbsup:

lol who do i know? because im a muslim and i know what islam states. muslims have to wear a hijb its not optional from the age of 12.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by foo_fighter
[B]Now, I don't know much about this subject, but I thought that people wore this "garb" because it was a religious necessity...
YOU WILL NOT FIND ANYWHERE IN THE KORAN WHERE IT TELLS WOMEN TO DRESS LIKE THIS. ALL IT SAYS IS WOMEN SHOULD DRESS MODESTLY AND SO SHOULD MEN.ITS A TRADITION ADOPTED FROM THE OREINT AS FORM OF SAFETY WHEN TRAVELING IN THE PAST.IT AS NOTHING WHAT SO EVER TO DO WITH ISLAM.

Originally posted by salma
lol who do i know? because im a muslim and i know what islam states. muslims have to wear a hijb its not optional from the age of 12.

So you wear one?

Originally posted by salma
lol who do i know? because im a muslim and i know what islam states. muslims have to wear a hijb its not optional from the age of 12.

What do you make of the comments on this thread then Salma?

And how do you feel about wearing a hijab?

Again, I'd just like to stress that these arn't trick questions. I was really hoping that more Muslims would start posting on this thread, especially women, so we can have a more balanced discussion and I'm really interested to hear your views. :thumbsup:

Originally posted by deadgobby
[QUOTE]Originally posted by foo_fighter
[B]Now, I don't know much about this subject, but I thought that people wore this "garb" because it was a religious necessity...
YOU WILL NOT FIND ANYWHERE IN THE KORAN WHERE IT TELLS WOMEN TO DRESS LIKE THIS. ALL IT SAYS IS WOMEN SHOULD DRESS MODESTLY AND SO SHOULD MEN.ITS A TRADITION ADOPTED FROM THE OREINT AS FORM OF SAFETY WHEN TRAVELING IN THE PAST.IT AS NOTHING WHAT SO EVER TO DO WITH ISLAM.

The reason why Hijaab is prescribed for women is mentioned in the Qur’an in the following verses of Surah Al-Ahzab:

"O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad); that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." [Al-Qur’an 33:59]

The Qur’an says that Hijaab has been prescribed for the women so that they are recognized as modest women and this will also prevent them from being molested.

Originally posted by JBee
What do you make of the comments on this thread then Salma?

And how do you feel about wearing a hijab?

Again, I'd just like to stress that these arn't trick questions. I was really hoping that more Muslims would start posting on this thread, especially women, so we can have a more balanced discussion and I'm really interested to hear your views. :thumbsup:

i know a lot of muslim girls who wear hijabs not because they are forced by families but because they want to wear it. im glad some people who have posted on here have said its up to the individual what they wear and how they dress. just put yourself in the situation- if a law/suggestion was made example- when going into a heavy asian/black area wear the hijab or wear the tradional clothing to prevent being attacked how would you react?.. (most likely stick two fingers up at it)yes exactly so why should the muslims stop wearing the hijab.

Originally posted by salma
The reason why Hijaab is prescribed for women is mentioned in the Qur’an in the following verses of Surah Al-Ahzab:

"O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad); that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." [Al-Qur’an 33:59]

The Qur’an says that Hijaab has been prescribed for the women so that they are recognized as modest women and this will also prevent them from being molested.

Quite ironic that in current times, wearing of the garment is increasing the chance of being molested or attacked, and not decreasing it (so it seems).

OK, I said this was an interesting subject, and one I didn't know a lot about...

...but after a bit of research it is getting clearer...

...or maybe not:
...The Koran devotes seven verses to appropriate clothing, he says, and while the hijab and jilbab are specifically mentioned as fitting attire for women, the shalwar kameez is not.

"The shalwaar kameez is modest dress no doubt, but it's Indian/Pakistani dress rather than Islamic," Dr Sajid says.
Humera Khan of the An Nisa Society, an organisation that represents the views of women, agreed the school had failed to take into account the huge diversity of the UK's 1.6 million Muslims.

"If you consult on what is Islamic, and you for instance only talk to the Pakistani community, they will say the shalwar kameez is suitable. But other communities would have a different view that then becomes excluded," she says…


…Islamic dress code is closely linked to the histories of the individual cultures within the faith, Ms Khan added.
"So when scholars say that clothing should be loose to hide the lines of the body for modesty reasons, this means different things in different places."

That point was emphasised by Dr Sajid who says that in some countries the long gowns favoured by Shabina Begum would not pass as a jilbab.

"According to some cultures if she was really wearing a jilbab only her eyes would be showing, and then she would wear dark glasses to cover them up. That's what they do in Saudi Arabia."

"Every country and every culture's style is different. It all depends on whatever interpretation has come up from their scholars," he said.
Source BBC, link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4315839.stm

So, from what's being said there, it's open to interpretation...

...but I'm willing to be told different if somebody knows better.

:)

Originally posted by salma
i know a lot of muslim girls who wear hijabs not because they are forced by families but because they want to wear it. im glad some people who have posted on here have said its up to the individual what they wear and how they dress. just put yourself in the situation- if a law/suggestion was made example- when going into a heavy asian/black area wear the hijab or wear the tradional clothing to prevent being attacked how would you react?.. (most likely stick two fingers up at it)yes exactly so why should the muslims stop wearing the hijab.

Yes, I totally agree that people should be able to wear whatever they want to wear.

Perhaps the hijaab is disliked because some Westerners view it as a symbol of repression of women?

Perhaps if more people were made aware of what you've just said - that a lot of Muslim girls wear it of their own free will - it would be less contentious?

When do you wear your hijaab? Do you just wear it in public? Or do you wear it in front of your family as well? Does anybody get to see you without it on?

Originally posted by JBee
Yes, I totally agree that people should be able to wear whatever they want to wear.

Perhaps the hijaab is disliked because some Westerners view it as a symbol of repression of women?

Perhaps if more people were made aware of what you've just said - that a lot of Muslim girls wear it of their own free will - it would be less contentious?

When do you wear your hijaab? Do you just wear it in public? Or do you wear it in front of your family as well? Does anybody get to see you without it on?

if its a symbol of repression then why do so many muslims wear it. now a days you cant really force kids to do much you get a mouthful of abuse back! its because of choice the girls wear it, its because they are following their religion, its because they are comfortable.

muslim girls wear the hijab in public, in front of relatives. people like your mum, sister, grandmother can see you without it.

Originally posted by Jamie
Quite ironic that in current times, wearing of the garment is increasing the chance of being molested or attacked, and not decreasing it (so it seems).

what are they going to get out of attacking muslims who wear the hijab? it will only make them more determined to wear it or even start wearing the jilbab. an example- if you were turned down for a job, would you just sit at home and claim benefits for the rest of your life?

Originally posted by salma
if its a symbol of repression then why do so many muslims wear it. now a days you cant really force kids to do much you get a mouthful of abuse back! its because of choice the girls wear it, its because they are following their religion, its because they are comfortable.

muslim girls wear the hijab in public, in front of relatives. people like your mum, sister, grandmother can see you without it.

That's great - thanks for educating me Salma. :thumbsup:

I always say it's better to ask questions and learn something rather than making blind assumptions based on prejudice.

Talking of blind assumptions, Lesat still hasn't come up with a suitable explanation for his previous posts! Can we assume he's dug himself a hole so big he's fallen in it?

:hihi:

Originally posted by salma
...muslim girls wear the hijab in public, in front of relatives. people like your mum, sister, grandmother can see you without it.
But earlier on you said:
Originally posted by salma
"O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad); that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." [Al-Qur’an 33:59]
Surely that means you only have to wear 'em when you're in France / Spain/ etc. on your holidays...

...although I'm not sure how it would apply to being in Wales or Scotland...








...I'll get me coat.

:hihi:

Most of what I want to say has been said already.

I think it comes down to personal choice. But no one should have to face fear of attack based on what they wear. But seeing that wearing the Hijaab is down to religous beliefs, it seems sad that people should go against what they feel comfortable with just to avoid the possibility of attack.

I have lived in muslim countries and have always been careful with how I dressed so as not to offend anyone, or attract unwanted attention. But I changed the way I dressed out of personal choice and felt more comfortable with it. I hated wearing shorts in public, because I felt so self conscious. But it was neccessary for sport. I've found that even now I dress modestly because of my upbringing. And no, most women do not dress up scantily when they go out on a friday/saturday night.

I think dressing revealingly attracts unwanted attention. But women still wear what they want. So if muslim women want to wear the Hijaab, they should feel safe to do so. Especially as there are strong religous beliefs behind it, all the more to stand up to it. The moment we see oppression change people's lives we have to start to worry.

I hope this is on topic.

Originally posted by salma
what are they going to get out of attacking muslims who wear the hijab?

I have no idea, salma. I guess they're afraid, and that's just the way some people react when afraid of a culture they don't understand. I really don't know what they get from it though.

It just seems curious to me, that an article of clothing, that the koran claims will make muslim ladies less likely to be assaulted, is (seemingly) having the opposite effect.

Originally posted by salma
it will only make them more determined to wear it or even start wearing the jilbab.

Of course. That's just a normal human reaction to force. All people share that same trait to a degree. We resist force, we're stubborn creatures, sometimes that's good, sometimes not so good.

Originally posted by salma
an example- if you were turned down for a job, would you just sit at home and claim benefits for the rest of your life?

If I was turned down for a job, of course I wouldn't claim benefits for the rest of my life.

I would wish to know why I was turned down, and what my shortcomings are, and what I can do to make myself more attractive to a potential employer.

I would also be asking myself, what I want to do, and I'd think long and hard about that, what *I* want to do, what I feel in my heart of hearts, and not what others expect of me.

That's all hypothetical of course, in reality I'm self employed doing something I very much enjoy.

Must this thread descend into personal insults?

You'll only succeed in getting it pulled.

Lighten up!

if they want to wear the hijab let them it has no effect on anyone else & it doesn't make them any different to a person not wearing it.

if they want to spout religious incitement like Deadgobby - send 'em packing, this is fundamentally a christian nation if they do not want to coexist within then they should leave.

Mod. Note

OK, back to the subject please.

Consider this the one warning that will be given.

Thanks,

Joe

So..... back to the origional topic then eh?

I think Muslim women should be able to wear what they want. Especially if it is for reasons of modesty and religion. Wearing a scalf on your head doesn't hurt anybody, and if we were all a little more open-minded it wouldn't offend anybody either!

[MOD NOTE] Topic now closed for pruning of irrelevant and off topic postings...

[MOD NOTE]thread now re-opened - please keep it on topic and keep a lid on the sniping or it will be removed - thankyou

Originally posted by willman
this is fundamentally a christian nation if they do not want to coexist within then they should leave.

Should everyone in this country not happy with this being christian nation leave as well? Where shall we all go? (Their are a fair few of us and since the Pagans were here first shouldn't the christians be the ones leaving)

i wasn't saying that if u weren't christian u should be kicked out, however if you were threatening to bomb said home country because of your religion then my point applies.
obviously even as a christian nation their are many other beliefs that have and alwasy will coexist.

just a quick note: my comments were made in response to messages since removed - whihc were inciting religious hatred within the community.

Sorry for the confusion.

Originally posted by valentine
Surely the sort of person to attack/abuse a Muslim woman wearing the scarf is just a likely to to the same because of the colour of their skin.

They probably just want to attack/abuse someone because they are different and the scarf is just an escuse.

Absolutely - no minded thugs - I live and work in London at the moment and I use the tubes every day.... some people will not sit next to muslim people, even women.

On Monday, some white men were talking loudly and being insulting to a muslim woman who was dressed from head to toe, so I went and sat between them and her.... they then said to me - "don't sit next to her - its her lot that did all the killing". I said whilst it may be a few muslim nutters who did the killing, it had absolutely nothing to do with her and 2 men picking on 1 woman was disgusting. Surprisingly they did back down and I made sure I got off with the woman at her stop so that nothing else was said.

It totally disgusts me that people feel that they can attack a defenceless woman just because of the actions of a few minority lunatics.:rant:

Personally I think that anyone should be free to wear whatever they want regardless - it only plays into the bullies hands.

not read the thread but my response would be:

why should they?

Their dress doesn't alter the person that they are.

If they change then the racists win.

Originally posted by bertie749
You will find that in certain countries there are rule imposed in which yes you can wear your own clothes but, women in particular, do have to be more covered up than you would have to be in our country. You see that with female BBC reporters in some countries in the Middle East & East.

What should we do ? Impose that women of these traditions opt to remove such garnments, it'd tend to say no, it's unfair on them, but then again, we have to like the locals tell us to do so my opinion atm is if anyone comes over here, do like us !

What's the point of posting when moderators either edit what you've typed, change your thread titles or just delete your posts?

Some Muslim clerics have advised their women to ditch their head scarves and other items of traditional dress to avoid becoming targets of abuse.

Some see this suggestion as giving in to the racists, but in some ways it makes sense, I feel.

Just as no one objects when western women are advised not to wear short skirts or other provocative clothing in Islamic counties, surely in these tense times it's sensible for Muslims not to dress in a way that would invite aggression.

Actually what you are refering to as traditional dress has little to do with Islam and more to do with cultural background, although I accept the two do get blurred.

I think the main issue with the Hijaab is that you cannot identify the wearer, and so it may be perceived as threatening. Similarly, you cannot identify someone wearing a hoodie, balaclava or a motorcycle helmet, and I believe it is reasonable to request the removal of anything that completely covers the face in public places where security might be at risk.

I think the main issue with the Hijaab is that you cannot identify the wearer, and so it may be perceived as threatening. Similarly, you cannot identify someone wearing a hoodie, balaclava or a motorcycle helmet, and I believe it is reasonable to request the removal of anything that completely covers the face in public places where security might be at risk.

The hijaab doesn't completely cover the face, usually, it's the Niqaab that does that.

I wear hijaab, but you can still see my face, and recognsise me.

I think women should be given the freedom to dress how they want to.

Go on then Alastair, tell us what word you were searching to drag this dusty old thread out of the archives ;)

Go on then Alastair, tell us what word you were searching to drag this dusty old thread out of the archives ;)

This is not the only one.... me thinks Alastair is frisky today. :hihi:

This thread (like the 'muslim stamps' one) is well dated (2005 in fact) and just been ressurrected to cause more tension?

I never had even heard of 'muslim stamps' let alone seen one! And definately NO muslim I know has ever requested one:hihi:

The hijaab? It is a requirment for religious purpose (not the face cover- just the head and loose clothing) but its upto the woman if she chooses to wear it (and will depend on her strength of faith) but it is morally protective. But freedom of choice is there- like here
http://www.halifaxcourier.co.uk/weird-world/West-Yorkshire-girl-on-dog.3705995.jp :gag:

This thread (like the 'muslim stamps' one) is well dated (2005 in fact) and just been ressurrected to cause more tension?

I never had even heard of 'muslim stamps' let alone seen one! And definately NO muslim I know has ever requested one:hihi:

The hijaab? It is a requirment for religious purpose (not the face cover- just the head and loose clothing) but its upto the woman if she chooses to wear it (and will depend on her strength of faith) but it is morally protective. But freedom of choice is there- like here
http://www.halifaxcourier.co.uk/weird-world/West-Yorkshire-girl-on-dog.3705995.jp :gag:

You mean, Muslim women can dress like that?.... I get the woman on a leash bit but I never knew there were Muslim Goths. :o

No Rat- you know what I meant, that just like the goth girl and her bf want to look and act like that, its their choice, but then it is also a choice for the muslim woman to wear her hijab as well as show her faith and chastity. (unlike the aforementioned couple).

No Rat- you know what I meant, that just like the goth girl and her bf want to look and act like that, its their choice, but then it is also a choice for the muslim woman to wear her hijab as well as show her faith and chastity. (unlike the aforementioned couple).

So.... Goths don't have faith and chastity? that's being a bit presumptuous wouldn't you say to base your opinion on the way a person dresses?

That's an interesting blog Alastair.... I wonder if the same strict code is enforced in the UK in certain communities as I can't understand why anyone would not want to partake in the freedoms this land has to offer them? as opposed to a land with an oppressive regime where they fled from.

That's an interesting blog Alastair.... I wonder if the same strict code is enforced in the UK in certain communities as I can't understand why anyone would not want to partake in the freedoms this land has to offer them? as opposed to a land with an oppressive regime where they fled from.

I agree with you until what should be your second sentence.

We can't assume that wearing traditional dress means not partaking in freedom. If you can identify that they are being forced, then I agree 100% with liberating them.
But simply wearing it might be them using that freedom. You simply can't make either assumption.

I agree with you until what should be your second sentence.

We can't assume that wearing traditional dress means not partaking in freedom. If you can identify that they are being forced, then I agree 100% with liberating them.
But simply wearing it might be them using that freedom. You simply can't make either assumption.

Why thank you Cyclone for telling me when I need to start a new sentence.... I'll take on board your constructive criticism but will still probably write the way I do as its served me well up to now.

I never made an assumption.... I clearly stated that I didn't understand why.... hope that's cleared little illiterate me up for you.

I agree with you until what should be your second sentence.

We can't assume that wearing traditional dress means not partaking in freedom. If you can identify that they are being forced, then I agree 100% with liberating them.
But simply wearing it might be them using that freedom. You simply can't make either assumption.

As its been said many times " there is no compulsion in religion" (Quran) so any person being forced to do something or wear something that they do not wish to, then this is wrong- and if someone wears the hijaab in a muslim country (like it was during the taliban or in Iran) due to fear of being subjected to some punishment, then this is also wrong and the best way is to let people themselves decide(not saying those who do wear it in these countries are being forced entirely)-but those who wear it in countries like UK/USA then this is because they chose to, with all the freedom they have, it is not an imposed act or forced upon them- in fact, the majority of women who wear it, especially American women (converts included) state that this is 'true liberation'. I can see why- especially when the ones (the true oppressed) are those who are continuously being told 'what to wear' what size to be' how to look' what body to have' etc....

As its been said many times " there is no compulsion in religion" (Quran) so any person being forced to do something or wear something that they do not wish to, then this is wrong- and if someone wears the hijaab in a muslim country (like it was during the taliban or in Iran) due to fear of being subjected to some punishment, then this is also wrong and the best way is to let people themselves decide(not saying those who do wear it in these countries are being forced entirely)-but those who wear it in countries like UK/USA then this is because they chose to, with all the freedom they have, it is not an imposed act or forced upon them- in fact, the majority of women who wear it, especially American women (converts included) state that this is 'true liberation'. I can see why- especially when the ones (the true oppressed) are those who are continuously being told 'what to wear' what size to be' how to look' what body to have' etc....

Who would the "true oppressed" that are told what to wear and what size to be.... couldn't be Muslim women by chance could it?..... nah! never.

It could be both Rat- but my point was (and this was also a debate on John Gaunt show at Talksport on Tuesday ) that there are hundreds of young pre-teenage girls being sucked into the 'bimbo' look and being urged to get on board with all the latest fashion accessories and trends- consumerism is what drives the ongoing matter of being 'in line' with whatever is chic.

What is surprising, for Westerners, is that 7 out of 10 (70%) people who become Muslim are Women! It is these same women who then go on to willingly observe the Hijab without coercion or force. The women of Hijab in the cities of London, Paris, New York etc, are not all immigrants who have just stepped off the boat, as many people think. Rather, many of them tend to be women of high intellect and education. Women who have experienced the bitterness of western oppression. Women of diverse nationalities and races, who are brought together as one.

It could be both Rat- but my point was (and this was also a debate on John Gaunt show at Talksport on Tuesday ) that there are hundreds of young pre-teenage girls being sucked into the 'bimbo' look and being urged to get on board with all the latest fashion accessories and trends- consumerism is what drives the ongoing matter of being 'in line' with whatever is chic.

There is a big difference between what young immature girls aspire to out of choice and will no doubt grow out of and someone being forced into a certain dress code, would you not agree? Its called freedom.

Would you also not agree that a religion that sucks women into covering themselves from head to toe so that another man is not able to see the property of another man and so not have sexual or deviant thoughts for her is quite perverse in the extreme?

Provided it's of their own free will people should be able to dress how they like. They should also accept that how they dress will have an impact on how they are treated by others.

Common sense really, dress like an emo to go to a rap concert and you'll not get a warm reception. Kit yourself out in a big black sack in England and you'll probably not make many friends or influence people.

What is surprising, for Westerners, is that 7 out of 10 (70%) people who become Muslim are Women! It is these same women who then go on to willingly observe the Hijab without coercion or force. The women of Hijab in the cities of London, Paris, New York etc, are not all immigrants who have just stepped off the boat, as many people think. Rather, many of them tend to be women of high intellect and education. Women who have experienced the bitterness of western oppression. Women of diverse nationalities and races, who are brought together as one.

I missed this bit as you edited your post while I was replying.

I would have thought that the sensible thing to do if all converts to Islam who feel they are experiencing the bitterness of western oppression would have emigrated to a more suitable Muslim Country like Saudi Arabia where they can experience the freedoms a regime like that would give to them.

Very few western women convert to Islam and this is mainly due to them marrying Muslim men as there is no choice in the religion but Islam.... they mainly marry Muslim immigrants.... Hmmmm! could that explain why they remain in the west?

There is a big difference between what young immature girls aspire to out of choice and will no doubt grow out of and someone being forced into a certain dress code, would you not agree? Its called freedom.

I agree here- we all (and I am sure you and I did) go through a phase and sometimes thats all it is, but it is also true some never get out of it and get sucked into anothe life. It may be freedom, but freedom is not "do what you want" but rather "do the right thing".

Would you also not agree that a religion that sucks women into covering themselves from head to toe so that another man is not able to see the property of another man and so not have sexual or deviant thoughts for her is quite perverse in the extreme?
THis is the whole essence of hijab in a way. It sets a guideline- cover your bosoms so as to be safe and free from molestation. Whats wrong with that? Is morality really gone out of the window? If you saw a woman walking down a street, half naked and showing all her pride, would that not send the wrong message?? There are sick and perverse people in our society, some are more tempted to act on impulse when they see a woman underdressed than to attack or molest one who is covered and showing she is not lewd. Don't get me wrong- I have sister in laws who don't observe any hijab and 1-2 of them may be more westernised than another- my sister in law from Denmark (a dentist now here in UK) is very modern(not to the extreme of dressing down), raised totally different to another of my sis in laws who is more traditional, though not an hijab wearing one. She will dress in loose clothing thats all.

Whilst other women are subjected to the pressures and slavery of modern society, the Muslim woman is truly free from this. In the west, women are expected to conform to the liberal fashions which appear daily. These fashions and expectations are often shaped by men. In this way, women become the slaves of society and man. Hijab is the liberator of this slavery. It takes women away from the obedience of man, to the obedience of God. This obedience will only bring about good. It is not a slavery from which your fellow human (the woman) is exploited and oppressed, just because your desires and lusts run wild.

I missed this bit as you edited your post while I was replying.

I would have thought that the sensible thing to do if all converts to Islam who feel they are experiencing the bitterness of western oppression would have emigrated to a more suitable Muslim Country like Saudi Arabia where they can experience the freedoms a regime like that would give to them.

Very few western women convert to Islam and this is mainly due to them marrying Muslim men as there is no choice in the religion but Islam.... they mainly marry Muslim immigrants.... Hmmmm!

I have scotched this comment before, rat.
firstly, there is NO compulsion in religion. a wife does not have to convert to Islam when married to a Muslim man. (Indeed if you want proof, see tonights star where there is an article about a couple who are being driven from their home, by racists. The chap is a muslim and the woman is not.)

Again, As I stated in a previous post on this subject, of the convert ladies I am close to, I can point out 10 /14 who are not married, let alone to a Muslim man. They were not coerced by any man either to embrace the faith, nor forced into the hijaab.

I have scotched this comment before, rat.
firstly, there is NO compulsion in religion. a wife does not have to convert to Islam when married to a Muslim man. (Indeed if you want prroof, see tonights star where there is an article about a couple who are being driven from their home, by racists. The chap is a muslim and the woman is not.)

Again, As I stated in a previous post on this subject, of the convert ladies I am close to, I can point out 10 /14 who are not married, let alone to a Muslim man. They were not coerced by any man either to embrace the faith, nor forced into the hijaab.

He is not a true Muslim then PT..... not in the eyes of Islam, the same kind of Muslim that is not a true follower who would explode him/herself amongst innocents.... You had your reasons to convert.... and that was your choice.... btw, why not choose a truly Muslim Country to practice your new found religion in like Saudi Arabia for instance.... surely you could live a truly honest Muslim life in such a place.... Bazooka seems to think people like you have suffered the bitterness of western oppression.... the boat leaves in half an hour.

I
I would have thought that the sensible thing to do if all converts to Islam who feel they are experiencing the bitterness of western oppression would have emigrated to a more suitable Muslim Country like Saudi Arabia where they can experience the freedoms a regime like that would give to them.

No, i think this may have sounded wrong- what you did not realise is that many of these women have been raised in westernised homes and probably lived a very westernised life- once they convert (if non muslims) they view their old life totally differently. Its these educated women who realise just how gullible they were. America and UK give ALL religions their freedom and I commend this. I am British as you are, born and raised here, educated and working, I am happy to be allowed to practice my religion and to see that people of whatever faiths can practice/dress how they need to. The ones I dislike ( you may do too) are those who are happy to reap the benefits of the freedom of this country and yet still condemn it! Its these people I say should go to a place where they can live the life they 'wish'. That includes people like Omar Bakri Mohammad and the like.

Very few western women convert to Islam and this is mainly due to them marrying Muslim men as there is no choice in the religion but Islam.... they mainly marry Muslim immigrants.... Hmmmm! could that explain why they remain in the west?

Again, the contrary, more women who convert to Islam are british or USA born and come into it freely- these are not even married yet, or may have converted during their marriage (when non muslim) and then perhaps (and many do) divorced to marry a muslim so as to fulfil their faith more. There are figures available from websites who report high conversion rate post 9/11.

THis is the whole essence of hijab in a way. It sets a guideline- cover your bosoms so as to be safe and free from molestation. Whats wrong with that? Is morality really gone out of the window? If you saw a woman walking down a street, half naked and showing all her pride, would that not send the wrong message?? There are sick and perverse people in our society, some are more tempted to act on impulse when they see a woman underdressed than to attack or molest one who is covered and showing she is not lewd. Don't get me wrong- I have sister in laws who don't observe any hijab and 1-2 of them may be more westernised than another- my sister in law from Denmark (a dentist now here in UK) is very modern(not to the extreme of dressing down), raised totally different to another of my sis in laws who is more traditional, though not an hijab wearing one. She will dress in loose clothing thats all.

Whilst other women are subjected to the pressures and slavery of modern society, the Muslim woman is truly free from this. In the west, women are expected to conform to the liberal fashions which appear daily. These fashions and expectations are often shaped by men. In this way, women become the slaves of society and man. Hijab is the liberator of this slavery. It takes women away from the obedience of man, to the obedience of God. This obedience will only bring about good. It is not a slavery from which your fellow human (the woman) is exploited and oppressed, just because your desires and lusts run wild.

I've never heard it called a pride before.

As for the overall tone, women should be free from molestation regardless how they are dressed. A sex offender attacking a woman because she is scantilly clad or a bigot attacking a woman because she has a hijab on are both vile. Trying to prevent male attacks on women by demanding women dress in more or less clothes is retarded, the only way to stop predators of all stripes is for society, starting with the man in the street but backed by the law, to come down hard on gits who attack women in the street, regardless of whether they object to them wearing too few or too many clothes.

So.... Goths don't have faith and chastity? that's being a bit presumptuous wouldn't you say to base your opinion on the way a person dresses?

Well, in the case of the Goths in question, I can hardly see any signs of chastity- the fact the bus driver told them " no freaks allowed" and others looked at the girl with aghast, speaks for itself.

Hasn't this subject been done to death by now? Bazooka and his/her ilk think that some non muslim people have no morals, 'faith or chastity' and lots of other insulting things about us that have been posted on these threads many times.

I and others think that anyone who takes up a religion (especially a very restrictive fundamentalist one like Islam or JW, or wears restrictive clothing) when they don't have to, is either brainwashed, being coerced or must have a screw loose.

We're never going to agree, so I've decided just to disagree in peace and quiet. Provided there is never any likelihood that this is going to become compulsory, I don't care anymore. This is positively my last post on religion in any shape or form, ever!

I've never heard it called a pride before.

As for the overall tone, women should be free from molestation regardless how they are dressed. A sex offender attacking a woman because she is scantilly clad or a bigot attacking a woman because she has a hijab on are both vile. Trying to prevent male attacks on women by demanding women dress in more or less clothes is retarded, the only way to stop predators of all stripes is for society, starting with the man in the street but backed by the law, to come down hard on gits who attack women in the street, regardless of whether they object to them wearing too few or too many clothes.

I agree and I stated that there are perverse people in society, full stop. But I have never read or seen a woman in hijab being sexually molested/attacked to date. But again, predators are of all types, there are those who rape and attack 80+ yr old women- that is as sick as it can get!!

Hasn't this subject been done to death by now? Bazooka and his/her ilk think that some non muslim people have no morals, 'faith or chastity' and lots of other insulting things about us that have been posted on these threads many times.

I and others think that anyone who takes up a religion (especially a very restrictive fundamentalist one like Islam or JW, or wears restrictive clothing) when they don't have to, is either brainwashed, being coerced or must have a screw loose.

We're never going to agree, so I've decided just to disagree in peace and quiet. Provided there is never any likelihood that this is going to become compulsory, I don't care anymore. This is positively my last post on religion in any shape or form, ever!

Sorry RD- i saw this post and did comment it was 'old news' but somehow/ someone ressurrected it.

Hasn't this subject been done to death by now? Bazooka and his/her ilk think that some non muslim people have no morals, 'faith or chastity' and lots of other insulting things about us that have been posted on these threads many times.

I and others think that anyone who takes up a religion (especially a very restrictive fundamentalist one like Islam or JW, or wears restrictive clothing) when they don't have to, is either brainwashed, being coerced or must have a screw loose.

We're never going to agree, so I've decided just to disagree in peace and quiet. Provided there is never any likelihood that this is going to become compulsory, I don't care anymore. This is positively my last post on religion in any shape or form, ever!

^^What she said!

Great post Ruby!

He is not a true Muslim then PT..... not in the eyes of Islam, the same kind of Muslim that is not a true follower who would explode him/herself amongst innocents.... You had your reasons to convert.... and that was your choice.... btw, why not choose a truly Muslim Country to practice your new found religion in like Saudi Arabia for instance.... surely you could live a truly honest Muslim life in such a place.... Bazooka seems to think people like you have suffered the bitterness of western oppression.... the boat leaves in half an hour.

since when? Muslim men are permitted to marry Kitaabi women (christians and jews) so where do you get this, the latest in a series of erroneous statements from?

I also object to you telling me to emigrate to a muslim land. If someone converts to Judaism or Christianity, they don't have to go and live in palestine!

Sorry RD- i saw this post and did comment it was 'old news' but somehow/ someone ressurrected it.
lol you don't have to apologise to me. I'm sure you and TheRat will grow old together, both still posting, refuting and rebutting one another ... long after the rest of us have given up and gone home! :D

He is not a true Muslim then PT..... not in the eyes of Islam, the same kind of Muslim that is not a true follower who would explode him/herself amongst innocents.... You had your reasons to convert.... and that was your choice.... btw, why not choose a truly Muslim Country to practice your new found religion in like Saudi Arabia for instance.... surely you could live a truly honest Muslim life in such a place.... Bazooka seems to think people like you have suffered the bitterness of western oppression.... the boat leaves in half an hour.

I was commenting generally that the media and consumerism is what has driven alot of the morals downhill and anyone with a half decent bone in their body can see how this has and continues to destroy society- from abusive kids, drunkeness, crime,sexual misconduct etc.. and the government is always thinking of ways to tackle it- be it taxing alcohol, trying to ban smoking in places/advertising, advising teenagers to 'wear a condom' etc.. its all part of what the media put forward and how powerful companies want to drive their product.
The British media is an example of this. Whilst condemning the Hijab as oppressive, it is well known that newspapers such as The Sun and The News of the World, often display pictures of naked women. This of course, is the liberation which the West claims to give women?Is this how a young girl is going to be motivated in life? That, to be successful, take your top off and show your breasts for the world to see.

lol you don't have to apologise to me. I'm sure you and TheRat will grow old together, both still posting, refuting and rebutting one another ... long after the rest of us have given up and gone home! :D

Naa. I think I will be long gone by then (I hope).:)
And I DO NOT think negative of you or those on SF, I am only making a general comment on what even you may see and consider trash.

I agree here- we all (and I am sure you and I did) go through a phase and sometimes thats all it is, but it is also true some never get out of it and get sucked into anothe life. It may be freedom, but freedom is not "do what you want" but rather "do the right thing".

I think most people do the right thing in life.... people that don't, expect to be punished.... if someone gets "sucked" into a certain way of life then they made the choice to do that in the first place whether it be right or wrong.


THis is the whole essence of hijab in a way. It sets a guideline- cover your bosoms so as to be safe and free from molestation. Whats wrong with that? Is morality really gone out of the window? If you saw a woman walking down a street, half naked and showing all her pride, would that not send the wrong message??

I'm not sure its up to me to judge a woman's appearance, less to say she might not be my type but just as you say its a Muslim woman's right to wear the burqa or hi-jab then its also the right of any other woman to choose her own dress code accordingly.

There are sick and perverse people in our society, some are more tempted to act on impulse when they see a woman underdressed than to attack or molest one who is covered and showing she is not lewd.

So you are saying that women who dress scantily are asking for perverts to attack them? This is exactly what I was getting at when I said that Muslim women cover themselves so that other men cannot see the property of a Muslim man.... a woman was put to death in Saudi not so long ago for allowing herself to be raped.... how sick? especially as she was wearing top to toe covering at the time so I don't think your argument holds much water.

Don't get me wrong- I have sister in laws who don't observe any hijab and 1-2 of them may be more westernised than another- my sister in law from Denmark (a dentist now here in UK) is very modern(not to the extreme of dressing down), raised totally different to another of my sis in laws who is more traditional, though not an hijab wearing one. She will dress in loose clothing thats all.

Am I supposed to be impressed? they are westerners after all.

Whilst other women are subjected to the pressures and slavery of modern society, the Muslim woman is truly free from this. In the west, women are expected to conform to the liberal fashions which appear daily. These fashions and expectations are often shaped by men. In this way, women become the slaves of society and man.

What a load of rubbish Bazooka.... we have liberal and conservative fashions, not all women go round half naked.... you must have witnessed that.... where do men fashion how women dress? I think its the opposite way around.... slaves of society and men? I could say that Muslim women are the slaves of the interpretation of Islam that Muslim men place upon them.

Hijab is the liberator of this slavery. It takes women away from the obedience of man, to the obedience of God. This obedience will only bring about good. It is not a slavery from which your fellow human (the woman) is exploited and oppressed, just because your desires and lusts run wild.

My lusts and desires or that of all western men run wild? I think what you are saying is that you look down on the rest of us in your pious views and yet you fail to see the hypocrisy of your words that you use to describe everyone around you except the Muslim community.... no wonder that Muslims will not integrate.... its just not possible.

since when? Muslim men are permitted to marry Kitaabi women (christians and jews) so where do you get this, the latest in a series of erroneous statements from?

I also object to you telling me to emigrate to a muslim land. If someone converts to Judaism or Christianity, they don't have to go and live in palestine!

I'm not wrong PT.... Why on earth would someone who converts to Judaism want to go and live in Palestine? :huh: another erroneous statement from you PT.

I asked you why you didn't choose a Muslim Country to settle I didn't tell you to emigrate.... maybe another erroneous misreading lets say.

I was commenting generally that the media and consumerism is what has driven alot of the morals downhill and anyone with a half decent bone in their body can see how this has and continues to destroy society- from abusive kids, drunkeness, crime,sexual misconduct etc.. and the government is always thinking of ways to tackle it- be it taxing alcohol, trying to ban smoking in places/advertising, advising teenagers to 'wear a condom' etc.. its all part of what the media put forward and how powerful companies want to drive their product.
The British media is an example of this. Whilst condemning the Hijab as oppressive, it is well known that newspapers such as The Sun and The News of the World, often display pictures of naked women. This of course, is the liberation which the West claims to give women?Is this how a young girl is going to be motivated in life? That, to be successful, take your top off and show your breasts for the world to see.

I know the answer..... lets introdce Sharia law into the UK.... that would save us all.... right?

Naa. I think I will be long gone by then (I hope).:)
And I DO NOT think negative of you or those on SF, I am only making a general comment on what even you may see and consider trash.
Bazooka ... there's a lot worse things going on in the world than a beautiful young woman being pictured wearing only her knickers. Some of the word's most acclaimed classic paintings feature naked men and women, are we going to try to ban them all?

Actually, I might have walked down the street with my 'pride' showing (that's making me giggle, do you mean breasts? or is it something that doesn't really translate?) so I can't say anything against it ... I've never been attacked yet. That's a very insulting comment to make about normal men, who would never contemplate attacking a woman. The only way you'd get me into one of those black outfits, is when I'm about 80 and I'll be able to chat up the men, they'll have no idea I'm an old crone!

Anyone wondering why I'm still here - this post is NOT about religion btw ... this is about my 'pride' I really want to know what it is.

edit: you can pm me, if it's something a bit rude, that you might not feel comfortable posting!

Well, in the case of the Goths in question, I can hardly see any signs of chastity- the fact the bus driver told them " no freaks allowed" and others looked at the girl with aghast, speaks for itself.

So its alright to order them off a bus because they dress differently.... is it acceptable to do the same to a Muslim woman in a burqa then?

Bazooka ... there's a lot worse things going on in the world than a beautiful young woman being pictured wearing only her knickers. Some of the word's most acclaimed classic paintings feature naked men and women, are we going to try to ban them all?

Actually, I might have walked down the street with my 'pride' showing (that's making me giggle, do you mean breasts? or is it something that doesn't really translate?) so I can't say anything against it ... I've never been attacked yet. That's a very insulting comment to make about normal men, who would never contemplate attacking a woman. The only way you'd get me into one of those black outfits, is when I'm about 80 and I'll be able to chat up the men, they'll have no idea I'm an old crone!

Anyone wondering why I'm still here - this post is NOT about religion btw ... this is about my 'pride' I really want to know what it is.

Rubes.... I've just gone all hot under me collar. :hihi:

So its alright to order them off a bus because they dress differently.... is it acceptable to do the same to a Muslim woman in a burqa then?

No, of course it isn't alright; and to adress the point of the OP ( which seems to have been lost in the soup somewhere ) ,no of course Muslim women should be free to wear whatever the hell they like in public.

Rubes.... I've just gone all hot under me collar. :hihi:
Stoppit now, you'll be giving Bazooka totally the wrong idea! This is a serious subject! :)

The only way you'd get me into one of those black outfits, is when I'm about 80 and I'll be able to chat up the men, they'll have no idea I'm an old crone!


Ruby, you'll never be old, nor will you ever be a crone!

Stoppit now, you'll be giving Bazooka totally the wrong idea! This is a serious subject! :)

I think he has already made his mind up about all us western men Rubes.... maybe we could meet up on another thread somewhere? ;) :hihi:

since when? Muslim men are permitted to marry Kitaabi women (christians and jews) so where do you get this, the latest in a series of erroneous statements from?

I also object to you telling me to emigrate to a muslim land. If someone converts to Judaism or Christianity, they don't have to go and live in palestine!

If muslim men can marry kitaabi, should it not be the case that the liberated women of islam be allowed to marry kitaabi men, or any man for that matter, if they so wish?

I personally think muslim women should wear what they want, be it the mini skirt or hijab, I would however hold more respect for a woman wearing a hijab than a mini skirt.
On a side point, an attractive women in hijab is visibly more attractive than an ugly women scantily clad and vice versa.

Decided to delete this post.

I was absolutely astounded by post 101.:confused::confused:

Decided to delete this post.

I was absolutely astounded by post 101.:confused::confused:

I wasn't; but then again.... I am astounded by the people who don't practice Islam but stick up for it..... I put it down to lack of knowledge.

Just wait till Sharia law extends itself deeper in this Country.... that kind of thinking could be law.

I personally think muslim women should wear what they want, be it the mini skirt or hijab, I would however hold more respect for a woman wearing a hijab than a mini skirt. On a side point, an attractive women in hijab is visibly more attractive than an ugly women scantily clad and vice versa.
I'm intrigued by the idea that you'd give more respect to a woman in a headscarf. So, no matter how coarse or stupid she might be, because of the scarf, you'd hold her in more esteem? Bizarre!

Also, according to all the received wisdom, these modes of dress are to enable men to treat women as asexual and yet you're still drawing comparisons based on a woman's looks? Even more bizarre :confused:

Bazooka ... there's a lot worse things going on in the world than a beautiful young woman being pictured wearing only her knickers. Some of the word's most acclaimed classic paintings feature naked men and women, are we going to try to ban them all?

Actually, I might have walked down the street with my 'pride' showing (that's making me giggle, do you mean breasts? or is it something that doesn't really translate?) so I can't say anything against it ... I've never been attacked yet. That's a very insulting comment to make about normal men, who would never contemplate attacking a woman. The only way you'd get me into one of those black outfits, is when I'm about 80 and I'll be able to chat up the men, they'll have no idea I'm an old crone!

Anyone wondering why I'm still here - this post is NOT about religion btw ... this is about my 'pride' I really want to know what it is.

edit: you can pm me, if it's something a bit rude, that you might not feel comfortable posting!

Its al being taken out of context RD- and this is not surprising. I don't think it is right to make assumptions about me just if I am defending the right of women to wear the hijab (as the Thread title) and I also gave example that women are FREE to do as they please(the gothic couple were an example). If this is freedom for some, then so be it. Just like I gave Rat an example of my own family members- two contrasting girls, but that was all. I live in the west and am proud to be British and Muslim- I live by the laws here like any decent person. I am not stopped from expressing my views just like you're not. I have nothing sinister or a hidden agenda- I think my post 101 (which seemed to shock 1-2) if read properly is just a truth- that many women in the West (and may be of all faiths- and have seen that) do become liberated in the way of how they are 'sold western consumerism'. So when you have high rates of fornication, STD on the UP, alcohol made to look 'cool' (like alcopops) and magazine telling young pre-adolesent girls to be a size 8 blah blah blah then THAT was my point. I don't see how that can be wrong to state??

Bottom line- as the old saying goes; "if you feel no shame; then do as you please". I just hope more people respct themselves more in future and do not feel pressured that to fit in within society, they have to change. Muslims do intergrate- and I am witness to that, but what type of intergration do we speak about; thats also important. I would not go to a lap dance club when my business colleagues want to go for a night out or to take a client for lunch. If that is 'not intergrating', then so be it.

Last year I saw a young "lady" in Doncaster so smashed she was on the deck legs apart with her knickers to one side leaving nothing much to imagine.
Now while I don't much care for the letter box all black extremes of Muslim wear I see no far less problem in that than the drunken tart's version of fashion.
Just to set the record straight most muslims I know don't wear the full kit and many don't even bother with the headscalf.
If you walk along a street here you will see about half of the ladies using a scalf and the rest not. Most dress in western style clothes day to day.
The only thing that you may notice is that most dress showing little bare skin on the body so the T shirts tend to be round necked or just a slight V.

Added. Today my wife is wearing jeans and a short sleeded T shirt that you may see in any western city. She only wears a scalf from time to time on formal occasions, preying or visiting a Muslim official for any reason.
What many of you may not be aware of is that there are also strict resictions on what a man may wear in some places.

Last year I saw a young "lady" in Doncaster so smashed she was on the deck legs apart with her knickers to one side leaving nothing much to imagine.
Now while I don't much care for the letter box all black extremes of Muslim wear I see no far less problem in that than the drunken tart's version of fashion.
Just to set the record straight most muslims I know don't wear the full kit and many don't even bother with the headscalf.
If you walk along a street here you will see about half of the ladies using a scalf and the rest not. Most dress in western style clothes day to day.
The only thing that you may notice is that most dress showing little bare skin on the body so the T shirts tend to be round necked or just a slight V.


A good observation. That is very common(a scarf is sufficient with the other clothes being jeans or a long top/ shirt maybe) and as I have said time and time again, its upto whoever on how they wish to dress- but a little modesty did no harm and IMO fits in better than what you described about the Doncaster lass.

A good observation. That is very common(a scarf is sufficient with the other clothes being jeans or a long top/ shirt maybe) and as I have said time and time again, its upto whoever on how they wish to dress- but a little modesty did no harm and IMO fits in better than what you described about the Doncaster lass.

Next time I get the chance I'll take a couple of snaps and post them on photobucket. I think that many will be shocked to see that Muslim women don't have to wear all that get up that some think they do.

<gets out camera phone ready> :)

Last year I saw a young "lady" in Doncaster etc etc.
That seems quite a strange arrangements of clothing for someone who's fallen down drunk? Are you sure she hadn't been attacked prior to you seeing her? Did you think she might be in a diabetic coma, or had her drinks spiked? Did you try to help her at all, or get help for her, or did you just tut tut and think ... now, if only she was a good Muslim girl she wouldn't be in this position?

I don't have a problem with people espousing these religious notions, just the way it seems to predispose them to make these negative judgments about other people's behaviour and be hypocrital about their own behaviour.

Secular westerners read and see these negative images that Muslims sometimes promulgate about us, and then we start to think they're all fanatical, beardy men wearing white pyjamas and nightcaps, looking down on us and despising us, and subjugated, veiled women swatched in black. It's a no-win situation for us all.

Trying to defend our positions on an internet forum is a disaster obviously, we can't properly make our points without being misinterpreted and we're all steadily getting more and more entrenched. I never even thought any of these things before it started being discussed on here and now everytime I interact with a Muslim, I'm conscious that I might be being judged and found wanting. I don't like that feeling much, who would?

Next time I get the chance I'll take a couple of snaps and post them on photobucket. I think that many will be shocked to see that Muslim women don't have to wear all that get up that some think they do.

<gets out camera phone ready> :)

I think its important to note, that muslim women come in all different types- some will wear the hijab (according to their faith and this is the purer way) and some are happy to wear loose clothing with a scarf- I see more of this today. It is not wrong and much better than being seen with skin tight tops and leaving very little to the imagination- can i also point out, that according to Islam, modesty in dressing also applies to MEN(a man's private part is from his knee to his navel)By this, I mean that we are told to dress modest, cover up properly and to use the clothes as they are to be used. The Quran does not specify for men what to be covered, this is outlined in the 'sunnah' but the verse clearly states " Tell the believing men and women to guard their modesty....."

It is not wrong and much better than being seen with skin tight tops and leaving very little to the imagination

On who, white women or Asian Muslims ?

I think its important to note, that muslim women come in all different types- some will wear the hijab (according to their faith and this is the purer way) and some are happy to wear loose clothing with a scarf- I see more of this today. It is not wrong and much better than being seen with skin tight tops and leaving very little to the imagination- can i also point out, that according to Islam, modesty in dressing also applies to MEN(a man's private part is from his knee to his navel)By this, I mean that we are told to dress modest, cover up properly and to use the clothes as they are to be used. The Quran does not specify for men what to be covered, this is outlined in the 'sunnah' but the verse clearly states " Tell the believing men and women to guard their modesty....."
I just can't stop myself, can I! grrrr! but I have to take issue with this post - again! I come across Muslim women every day that wear western clothing, no headscarf, tight jeans and tops etc, and the way some of the younger girls wear a shalwar khameeze (sp?) leaves little to the imagination, tbh. You can dress modestly wearing western clothing, you know. It's all down to personal taste and the circumstances you're in at the time.

I'm surprised about the men's clothing rules you say, the version I read said that men had to be covered from knees to neck and shoulder to elbow? In other words, their torso should be covered. Surprising enough, a lot of women don't like to see men going around half naked either, you know. But I'd never demand that you should cover yourself up if you feel comfortable with exposing yourself to the public gaze.

Anyway, this is positively my last word on the subject, as it's just going round in circles now.

On who, white women or Asian Muslims ?

Both in this case i guess as I am not being specific.

I just can't stop myself, can I! grrrr! but I have to take issue with this post - again! I come across Muslim women every day that wear western clothing, no headscarf, tight jeans and tops etc, and the way some of the younger girls wear a shalwar khameeze (sp?) leaves little to the imagination, tbh. You can dress modestly wearing western clothing, you know. It's all down to personal taste and the circumstances you're in at the time.

I'm surprised about the men's clothing rules you say, the version I read said that men had to be covered from knees to neck and shoulder to elbow? In other words, their torso should be covered. Surprising enough, a lot of women don't like to see men going around half naked either, you know. But I'd never demand that you should cover yourself up if you feel comfortable with exposing yourself to the public gaze.

Anyway, this is positively my last word on the subject, as it's just going round in circles now.

(my bold) It does worry me sometimes where you 'read' about your islamic information- and maybe this is why yo have such a negative perception?
This may help http://mens-style.suite101.com/article.cfm/definition_of_hijab_for_muslim_men

That seems quite a strange arrangements of clothing for someone who's fallen down drunk? Are you sure she hadn't been attacked prior to you seeing her? Did you think she might be in a diabetic coma, or had her drinks spiked? Did you try to help her at all, or get help for her, or did you just tut tut and think ... now, if only she was a good Muslim girl she wouldn't be in this position?

Attacked- no. I saw her stagger down the road.
I know smashed out of her brain and I've seen diabetic coma so no again.
Drinks spiked. I have no idea.
I didn't make any efort to look at her 'goods' as I have no interest in girls like that.
And yes, a good muslim girl would not end up like that. They don't go 'dogging' in the street either and I've seen a fair bit of that from good solid Yorkshire lasses and lads.

One of the side effects of a little modesty in dress is that the blokes tend to treat the girls more a little better. Tell me that's a bad thing if you can.
Men will always be men but there is no way that any guy would make naughty suggestions to a girl in the street here.
No one would grap their brests as I've seen so many times in the UK and no one dream of offering a girl a night back at his place.
That means that there are few un married mothers about and in turn no little sods wandering the streets breaking into cars.
Maybe many of the girls in the Uk should try a little modest muslim style dress and see if they get more respect from the blokes if they respect themselves.

(my bold) It does worry me sometimes where you 'read' about your islamic information- and maybe this is why yo have such a negative perception?
This may help http://mens-style.suite101.com/article.cfm/definition_of_hijab_for_muslim_men
It was a translation of the Koran/Q'ran with footnotes. I borrowed it from Highfields Library, a few years ago now. Maybe it was written by some imman that had his own ideas about male modesty. Although don't you think it would be better for men to be more covered anyway? After all in Edwardian times, no gentleman would have been seen bathing in a pair of Speedos :D

I didn't have any negative perceptions of anything until I started reading the posts from practioners of Islam on here. None of you have done your religion much good, quite honestly. You post such peculair things about how we live in western society, I wonder where you get your ideas from! I think you take too much notice of what you're told about it and not enough notice of what it's actually like.

Attacked- no. I saw her stagger down the road.
I know smashed out of her brain and I've seen diabetic coma so no again.
Drinks spiked. I have no idea.
I didn't make any efort to look at her 'goods' as I have no interest in girls like that.
And yes, a good muslim girl would not end up like that. They don't go 'dogging' in the street either and I've seen a fair bit of that from good solid Yorkshire lasses and lads.

One of the side effects of a little modesty in dress is that the blokes tend to treat the girls more a little better. Tell me that's a bad thing if you can.
Men will always be men but there is no way that any guy would make naughty suggestions to a girl in the street here.
No one would grap their brests as I've seen so many times in the UK and no one dream of offering a girl a night back at his place.
That means that there are few un married mothers about and in turn no little sods wandering the streets breaking into cars.
Maybe many of the girls in the Uk should try a little modest muslim style dress and see if they get more respect from the blokes if they respect themselves.
It's sad for me to see a man dissing other men the way you have. I think better of the male sex in general than you obviously do. I remember the early posts you used to make on here, which you later said were all posted as 'jokes'. You can't judge everyone by your own attitudes, thoughts and ways of behaving. I think you've definitely found your place in the word, upinwath, somewhere that forces you to behave decently, if that's what it take, so be it.

You have your little family now and I hope nothing ever occurs to spoil it for you. :D I do mean that sincerely.

Muslim dress commands male respect :rolleyes:

It was a translation of the Koran/Q'ran with footnotes. I borrowed it from Highfields Library, a few years ago now. Maybe it was written by some imman that had his own ideas about male modesty. Although don't you think it would be better for men to be more covered anyway? After all in Edwardian times, no gentleman would have been seen bathing in a pair of Speedos :D

I didn't have any negative perceptions of anything until I started reading the posts from practioners of Islam on here. None of you have done your religion much good, quite honestly. You post such peculair things about how we live in western society, I wonder where you get your ideas from! I think you take too much notice of what you're told about it and not enough notice of what it's actually like.

Ok- you;re free to think of 'us' how you wish and I for one am not making assumptions on anyone in particular but just made a general observation. I am free to do that and FYI I think whatever is posted on SF to defend Islam, is correct and not in anyway misrepresented- I can spot false info immediately. No one is perfect. :wave:

Attacked- no. I saw her stagger down the road.
I know smashed out of her brain and I've seen diabetic coma so no again.
Drinks spiked. I have no idea.
I didn't make any efort to look at her 'goods' as I have no interest in girls like that.
And yes, a good muslim girl would not end up like that. They don't go 'dogging' in the street either and I've seen a fair bit of that from good solid Yorkshire lasses and lads.

One of the side effects of a little modesty in dress is that the blokes tend to treat the girls more a little better. Tell me that's a bad thing if you can.
Men will always be men but there is no way that any guy would make naughty suggestions to a girl in the street here.
No one would grap their brests as I've seen so many times in the UK and no one dream of offering a girl a night back at his place.
That means that there are few un married mothers about and in turn no little sods wandering the streets breaking into cars.
Maybe many of the girls in the Uk should try a little modest muslim style dress and see if they get more respect from the blokes if they respect themselves.

I don't think many people go 'dogging' in the street, do they? I was under the impression that dogging was having sex in remote locations specifically so that other people could watch.

Getting drunk and having sex in public isn't dogging, it's just having sex in public. Not that I condone it you understand ;)

With regard to the rest of your post - 'men will always be men' - it's such a refreshing change to hear that the responsibility for harrassment, rape and unwanted pregnancies rests, as per usual, on women, and that it can all be solved overnight by dressing more modestly!

*breathes a big sigh of relief*

They have to cover themselves, to stop males lusting and desiring them.
You see in some cultures, men just can't control themselves - and apparantly its seems the females only protection from these uncontrollable animals is to cover up!! A medievil way to shift the blame.

They have to cover themselves, to stop males lusting and desiring them.
You see in some cultures, men just can't control themselves - and apparantly its seems the females only protection from these uncontrollable animals is to cover up!! A medievil way to shift the blame.

Maybe you should re-read Upinwarths post again. It has nothing to do with muslim women covering so that 'muslim men don't lust after them':gag:
The observing of hijab is a protective and modest covering outlined for women or the very least, she should 'dress modestly' in suitable attire that is not tight/see- through. I for sure have seen many of my white colleagues in my last 10 year career history trying to set good standards and raise their kids on morals and values- which I commend. All my points were to try and squash the belief that the hijab is oppressive and that its the western women who tend to be the truely oppressed(by consumerism and trends)

You're either very dumb if you think it is fine and good for a woman to dress immorally or you're the very uncontrollable 'animal' you speak of..

You're either very dumb if you think it is fine and good for a woman to dress immorally or you're the very uncontrollable 'animal' you speak of..

I think I'm just going to have to hold my hand up and be counted as very dumb, then.

I don't believe it's possible for women to dress immorally.

I think I should START wearing Germany's traditional dress in public. Lederhosen.

............You're either very dumb if you think it is fine and good for a woman to dress immorally or you're the very uncontrollable 'animal' you speak of..



I believe in education and respect

some cultures have some development to make

it takes time.

It has nothing to do with muslim women covering so that 'muslim men don't lust after them':gag:


Really?

"The main principle reason for the hijab is modesty, which is not wishing to receive unnecessary attention from people, such as admiration and flattery, envy, or, most importantly, sexual attraction from those other than her husband.Great care is taken to keep sexual thoughts, feelings and interactions to within the boundaries of the marital relationship."

Surah 24 Al-Nur (The Light); ayat 31 (part of) (http://www.islamic.org.uk/hijab.html)


And me? Im just a dumb dumb boy.

I'm intrigued by the idea that you'd give more respect to a woman in a headscarf. So, no matter how coarse or stupid she might be, because of the scarf, you'd hold her in more esteem? Bizarre!

Also, according to all the received wisdom, these modes of dress are to enable men to treat women as asexual and yet you're still drawing comparisons based on a woman's looks? Even more bizarre :confused:

Do you think i should respect more a woman in a mini skirt?

Men will look at women, women will look at men.
Dependant upon how they dress, different opinions will be formed.

Who would you hold in a higer opinion, a well dressed man or a bloke covered in tatoos clad in burberry and a hoody?

... or you're the very uncontrollable 'animal' you speak of..

Bazooka, sorry to bring this back, but heres an old gem:


"Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali, the nation's most senior Muslim cleric, compared immodestly-dressed women who do not wear the Islamic headdress with meat that is left uncovered in the street and is then eaten by cats...If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it..whose fault is it - the cats or the uncovered meat?

"The uncovered meat is the problem."

He went on: "If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab (veil), no problem would have occurred."

Women, he said, were 'weapons' used by Satan to control men."



Arabia - middle ages? No, London 2006:gag:

Bazooka, sorry to bring this back, but heres an old gem:


"Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali, the nation's most senior Muslim cleric, compared immodestly-dressed women who do not wear the Islamic headdress with meat that is left uncovered in the street and is then eaten by cats...If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it..whose fault is it - the cats or the uncovered meat?

"The uncovered meat is the problem."

He went on: "If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab (veil), no problem would have occurred."

Women, he said, were 'weapons' used by Satan to control men."



Arabia - middle ages? No, London 2006:gag:

JT- i remember this statement and it actually washed down well with some christians and other faiths who observed that modesty was something many had forgot- immorality is part and parcel of many societies, even if it is done 'behind doors' - but the point you make is more in line with general view and a straight forward example- its quite a simple analogy.
Lets take another, if a student fails her/his exams, do they blame the teacher?? No, they have to accept the taking part in the exam was down to them and down to their study- how much they revised or paid attention in class. I don;t think it is right to observe anyone who speaks about morals as 'being in the dark ages'. Hijab or decent covering up so as to NOT draw attention is valuabe thing, not the opposite- the way modesty is being attacked just further shows how much society has changed and is willing to just be a little too free perhaps..

JT- i remember this statement and it actually washed down well with some christians and other faiths who observed that modesty was something many had forgot- immorality is part and parcel of many societies, even if it is done 'behind doors' - but the point you make is more in line with general view and a straight forward example- its quite a simple analogy.


Gosh, it's good to know misogyny is a multi-faith practice ;)

Gosh, it's good to know misogyny is a multi-faith practice ;)

How can this be about misogyny- that is so pathetic. I have nothing against women, where have I said that??!! The thread title is about hijab= modesty (opposite is immodesty). Hence the whole episode of comparing what is right and what is clearly wrong- not generall dress!

How can this be about misogyny- that is so pathetic. I have nothing against women, where have I said that??!! The thread title is about hijab= modesty (opposite is immodesty). Hence the whole episode of comparing what is right and what is clearly wrong- not generall dress!

I wasn't accusing you of misogyny, I'm sorry if it came across like that.

The comparison of women to meat, however, is an old, old tactic (you've heard the expression 'She's just a piece of meat') and cleverly chosen in the quotation that Joe Totale provided.

It reinforces stereotypes about sexuality and gender (men are predators, women are prey) and - objectivity aside for the moment - I found it really quite distasteful.

As for women being the weapons of Satan - that's clearly misogyny.

Just to clarify, I'm commenting ONLY on the quotation I refer to above - not Islam, not Muslims in general, not the hijab.

I wasn't accusing you of misogyny, I'm sorry if it came across like that.

The comparison of women to meat, however, is an old, old tactic (you've heard the expression 'She's just a piece of meat') and cleverly chosen in the quotation that Joe Totale provided.

It reinforces stereotypes about sexuality and gender (men are predators, women are prey) and - objectivity aside for the moment - I found it really quite distasteful.

As for women being the weapons of Satan - that's clearly misogyny.

Just to clarify, I'm commenting ONLY on the quotation I refer to above - not Islam, not Muslims in general, not the hijab.

Ok- thanks for clearing up and FYI I would also not use the words "piece of meat" as this is derogaty-though this guy was refering to a particular type of woman from the looks of it.In Islam, women are protected and respected- -despite the many misrpresentations.

I am ending this subject on my behalf now. Hope no one got offended.

Its al being taken out of context RD- and this is not surprising. I don't think it is right to make assumptions about me just if I am defending the right of women to wear the hijab (as the Thread title)

I think the vast majority of posters have already made their mind up about you and post 101 seems to me to be the basis of your fundamental beliefs.... people reading your posts will have realised by now that you count yourself British and Muslim, we are so gracious that you to mention the British but you are Muslim firstly and foremost and it comes across ever so strongly in your views on western men and women.... you like it here but you don't like us.... what a contradiction in terms.... you wouldn't have "here" without us. So what would you do if we all vanished tomorrow and took our infrastructure, our technology, our health service, our education and benefit system with us.... where would Muslims seek sanctuary?..... you would seek out the evil west once again rather than face one of the Muslim Countries that would restrict you.... now, I find that hilarious.... you are here because you want to be and don't suggest otherwise.... you just have to get it through your head that we live like we do and if you don't like it then we are not keeping you fastened to this Isle....

and I also gave example that women are FREE to do as they please(the gothic couple were an example). If this is freedom for some, then so be it. Just like I gave Rat an example of my own family members- two contrasting girls, but that was all. I live in the west and am proud to be British and Muslim- I live by the laws here like any decent person. I am not stopped from expressing my views just like you're not. I have nothing sinister or a hidden agenda- I think my post 101 (which seemed to shock 1-2) if read properly is just a truth- that many women in the West (and may be of all faiths- and have seen that) do become liberated in the way of how they are 'sold western consumerism'. So when you have high rates of fornication, STD on the UP, alcohol made to look 'cool' (like alcopops) and magazine telling young pre-adolesent girls to be a size 8 blah blah blah then THAT was my point. I don't see how that can be wrong to state??

You don't have a clue how you offend western people with your doctrine do you? as long as our laws grant you the right to free speech then everything is okay in your little world.... have you ever thought that westerners might just not agree with your take on life and they live it differently here in the same way they have done for generations before them? Why should they bend their way of life to accommodate you? Can a westerner go to Saudi Arabia and open a catholic church? the simple answer is no from the religion of tolerance and peace but you expect to stamp your beliefs on us.... how is that fair?

If you detest western consumerism as you have quoted countless times in countless posts.... why are you still here?

Bottom line- as the old saying goes; "if you feel no shame; then do as you please". I just hope more people respct themselves more in future and do not feel pressured that to fit in within society, they have to change. Muslims do intergrate- and I am witness to that, but what type of intergration do we speak about; thats also important. I would not go to a lap dance club when my business colleagues want to go for a night out or to take a client for lunch. If that is 'not intergrating', then so be it.

When you say you hope people don't feel pressured to fit in with society.... who's society are you specifically referring to? the one they are born into and the one you would like to see demise?..... because it certainly isn't the pressurised society that you live in and would like to oppress others under is it?

So what if people go to strip clubs or even if they propagate children for evils?.... now! there is a point isn't it.... Muslim men are so pious and strict in their convictions that they would never think of taking underage western girls and grooming them for sex in an organised way..... Muslim men don't do that kind of thing do they? They respect a woman, maybe not kids though.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/page/item/b009lykf.shtml?filter=txdate%3A27-03&filter=txslot%3Aevening&start=1&scope=iplayerlast7days&version_pid=b009ly2b

Don't tell me Bazooka..... they are not true Muslims.... they never are when public opinion doesn't go your way.... its a bit like Catholics saying that the pub nail bomber wasn't a true Christian.... we know he was white and from England and we know he professes the faith of the Catholics and we understand this and yet we reject the individual, Muslims are capable of heinous crimes also.

Your faith never rejects a Muslim for even the most heinous of crimes.... they are made martyrs.... I doubt the little girls abused in the way they were will see it that way.

That is your morality.... so how the hell you can lecture your thoughts on here is an enigma to me.... better keep them to yourself..... oh! the "Asians" in the documentary were Muslim.

Allah had a wife called Aisha.... she was six or seven when promised in marriage.... she was nine years of age when he married her according to your book of wisdom.... was that a sex thing? you tell me but here in the west.... we adopt children of that age and nurture them for the better of life.... You don't have morality nailed to a cross you know.... you just use whatever it takes to get your way because you think you can.

I think the vast majority of posters have already made their mind up about you and post 101 seems to me to be the basis of your fundamental beliefs.

Just to add, my comment on post 101, I removed because, after re reading it, I thought it didn't make sense, as I wasn't sure whether Baz was male or female.

A good observation. That is very common(a scarf is sufficient with the other clothes being jeans or a long top/ shirt maybe) and as I have said time and time again, its upto whoever on how they wish to dress- but a little modesty did no harm and IMO fits in better than what you described about the Doncaster lass.

Last year I saw a young "lady" in Doncaster so smashed she was on the deck legs apart with her knickers to one side leaving nothing much to imagine.

These western women are such whores aren't they Bazooka?

It's sad for me to see a man dissing other men the way you have. I think better of the male sex in general than you obviously do. I remember the early posts you used to make on here, which you later said were all posted as 'jokes'. You can't judge everyone by your own attitudes, thoughts and ways of behaving. I think you've definitely found your place in the word, upinwath, somewhere that forces you to behave decently, if that's what it take, so be it.

You have your little family now and I hope nothing ever occurs to spoil it for you. :D I do mean that sincerely.

You can be so disguising its cute.... I love it. :D

Ok- you;re free to think of 'us' how you wish and I for one am not making assumptions on anyone in particular but just made a general observation. I am free to do that and FYI I think whatever is posted on SF to defend Islam, is correct and not in anyway misrepresented- I can spot false info immediately. No one is perfect. :wave:

You never make assumptions, you just think what was indocrinated into you by your parents and your Imams.... you defend the ways of Islam in a western culture..... like you have said previously though, our laws allow you to do that.... so why use "our" laws when its suits you best or fit for purpose and then presume to use your own laws when it is beneficial to you?

Muslim men? :roll: They want the best of both worlds.

What did you want to say btw? Baz is an all Muslim male. :D
Doesn't matter now, I chat enough about this at work(in a friendly way of course;)), and like to keep the forum for amusement purposes rather than serious ones.

Though I would put post #101 in room 101 given the choice. :hihi:

*gets me coat*

:rolleyes::hihi:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rat
I think the vast majority of posters have already made their mind up about you and post 101 seems to me to be the basis of your fundamental beliefs.

Me- a fundamental (if it means I know my religion and the fundamentals of prayer/fasting/charity then YES I am a fundamental- anyone with knowledge of a particular field should be a 'fundamental'. I am to in my professional career.There is no concept of "Fundamentalism" in Islam. The western media has coined this term to brand those Muslims who wish to return to the basic fundamental principles of Islam and mould their lives accordingly. Islam is a religion of moderation and a practicing God fearing Muslim can neither be a fanatic nor an extremist
Fundamentalism in your interpretation of being radical does not fit here and never will!

And alot of posters also know that you are a racist at heart(accussd by someone on SF) and anti Islamic and you give atheism a bad enough name with some of the rude and derogatory statements you've made over the periods. AT least the athiests like Wildcat/Chopsie/Mr Goose (to name a few) have the ability to be open minded and debate respectfully. Something YOU CAN'T MANAGE RAT. You have no knowledge on Islam and yet try to tarnish it whenever you can- at least come prepared if you're going to put up a challenge when you're preparing for a usual rant.

As for me? Pick out one thread where I or any fellow muslims (like Plain Talker/Shabba/Tabs1/Flooz) has used foul language or stooped to your level-or abused your beliefs and whilst you're doing that- find one thread started by a muslim on any of the subjects you and other anti muslim SF members have ranted on about- I think it is common knowledge that all the subjects generated like Shariah Law/Banning 3 Little Pig story/Halal this-that/Imams in School etc.. have had nothing to do with any muslim starting it and when you take of your blinkers- you can at least acknowledge that its the NON MUSLIMS in positions in society that likes to honker on about things muslims do not even care about(most of the time at least)!

IF YOU CAN MAINTAIN A BIT OF DECENCY AND STAY AWAY FROM ABUSING RELIGIONS AND BELIEFS AND AVOID STOOPING TO PERSONAL ABUSE THEN BY ALL MEANS LETS HAVE SOME GOOD HEARTED DEBATES..SHOULD OUR PATHS CROSS.

Why thank you Cyclone for telling me when I need to start a new sentence.... I'll take on board your constructive criticism but will still probably write the way I do as its served me well up to now.

I never made an assumption.... I clearly stated that I didn't understand why.... hope that's cleared little illiterate me up for you.

Well, we can all learn to improve our grammar and punctuation can't we.

You did make an assumption, although maybe you didn't even realise it.
Your statement makes the implied assumption that they are not using their freedom by dressing in the way they want, when in fact you don't know if they are or are not.

They should be made to run around naked. Well, the nice ones anyway. Any over 25 should be made to wear a tent to hide their aging foreign features.

THis is the whole essence of hijab in a way. It sets a guideline- cover your bosoms so as to be safe and free from molestation. Whats wrong with that? Is morality really gone out of the window?

Several things actually.
Firstly what's immoral about showing flesh, is flesh something that we are ashamed of having, so ashamed that no one else should see it? Or is it that other people have so little self control (and that the woman in question is so beautiful) that no man could possibly resist molesting them?
Neither is true.
Show as little or as much flesh as you like, there is nothing wrong in doing either.
If you saw a woman walking down a street, half naked and showing all her pride, would that not send the wrong message??
I'm confused, if her body is her pride then why hide it?
And no, dress doesn't send out messages, at least not the type that you are implying.
There are sick and perverse people in our society, some are more tempted to act on impulse when they see a woman underdressed than to attack or molest one who is covered and showing she is not lewd.
This is a non argument, there are people who will stab you for having £5, does that mean you should not have £5.
Be responsible for your own behaviour, not for other peoples.

Don't get me wrong- I have sister in laws who don't observe any hijab and 1-2 of them may be more westernised than another- my sister in law from Denmark (a dentist now here in UK) is very modern(not to the extreme of dressing down), raised totally different to another of my sis in laws who is more traditional, though not an hijab wearing one. She will dress in loose clothing thats all.

Whilst other women are subjected to the pressures and slavery of modern society, the Muslim woman is truly free from this.
Replacing one set of expectations and pressures with another is not freedom.
In the west, women are expected to conform to the liberal fashions which appear daily.
Or not, they can dress as they choose and there are many who do.
These fashions and expectations are often shaped by men.
A misconception I believe, many designers and trend setters in female fashion are unsurprisingly female. In this way, women become the slaves of society and man. Hijab is the liberator of this slavery. It takes women away from the obedience of man, to the obedience of God. This obedience will only bring about good. It is not a slavery from which your fellow human (the woman) is exploited and oppressed, just because your desires and lusts run wild.

Err, right, you got a bit all religious there for a moment. Who cars about obedience to man or god. Women are free to follow fashion or not and to wear a hijab or not, let them do as they choose with no pressure for either.
And no matter what you say there are many muslims who do believe that forcing women to wear the hijab is the correct thing to do, this should be challenged whenever it can be.

He is not a true Muslim then PT..... not in the eyes of Islam, the same kind of Muslim that is not a true follower who would explode him/herself amongst innocents.... You had your reasons to convert.... and that was your choice.... btw, why not choose a truly Muslim Country to practice your new found religion in like Saudi Arabia for instance.... surely you could live a truly honest Muslim life in such a place.... Bazooka seems to think people like you have suffered the bitterness of western oppression.... the boat leaves in half an hour.

For someone who is not a muslim and knows little about them you seem to know an awful lot about what a true muslim is and is not.
I doubt that your opinion on their religious state is important to them or affects the reality that they believe themself to be a muslim.
Why do you keep suggesting to people that they should go to a different country to practice their religion. Are you not proud of the fact that the UK is relatively agnostic when it comes to government and that religion freedom is guaranteed? You come across as some sort of fanatic yourself by asking muslims to leave every second breath.

Well, in the case of the Goths in question, I can hardly see any signs of chastity- the fact the bus driver told them " no freaks allowed" and others looked at the girl with aghast, speaks for itself.

How can you see chastity?
And why would you presume to judge someone else based on their clothing?

Some Muslim clerics have advised their women to ditch their head scarves and other items of traditional dress to avoid becoming targets of abuse.


i think this is a great idea wrt burkhas, which i am deeply offended by. stinks of misogyny.

head scarves are fine though, as long as you can see expressions. my granny wears a head scarf as do my sikh women friends and a turban for my sikh male friends.

i think it's a good idea that imams are trying to work towards some concessions....as at the moment, it feels like the local muslim females are getting more fundamental in their attire....which is bad, bad, bad.

i understand why of course.....battening up the hatches n all to perceived global condemnation..

..but...i'm in sheffield, not blimmin saudi arabia! don't hide from me. i ain't a threat to you :)

How can you see chastity?
And why would you presume to judge someone else based on their clothing?

What I meant by 'showing her pride' as you pointed out that there is nothing wrong with that- then I was refering the pride being her private parts or those parts that would cause temptation. So as an example, lets say you have two daughters, both are going out. One comes down in long trousers or long skirt and covering her body in loose clothing (so as to not show her body shape etc) and your other daughter is also getting ready- she comes down in a mini skirt, a low cut top (also see through) and leaves nothing to the imagination- which of the two do you think may be sending the wrong message and if they crossed the path of some ruffians, which one is likely to be molested or seen as a sex object?? I know some fathers who would say " you're not going out like that young girl!"

And as for the above Q: I guess how true a person is in terms of chastity is unknown (I agree to that) but the way a person dresses and the manners they observe is usually a good indication or at least they are protecting their honour and IMO better for society (which has seen its fair share of evil recently). I am done on this subject and thread now.

I don't think trying to personalise it by bringing paternal instincts into play is a fair ploy, so lets say that they were two friends getting ready.

I would not think that either girl were sending a message to ruffians, and I would expect that the laws of the land should protect girls, boys, and everyone else from ruffians.

Whilst personal safety is our own responsibility dressing in a way to hide your body because you fear provoking uncontrollable lust in ruffians is a) arrogant, and b) means you've now lost. It might be something you never knew you had, but you just had your behaviour altered just by the idea that there might somewhere be ruffians, that's definitely loosing.

So dress as you choose, dress in a way that you enjoy and if you like showing off your body then do so. Take personal responsibility for safety by staying in your group and not going down dark alleyways and not going to dodgy areas of town.

You seem to have some very archaic ideas about how women should dress and behave. Did you miss the 60's, women are no longer sexually repressed, they are allowed to enjoy having sex and even to instigate it if they wish.
Being chaste is not much of a virtue anymore (although you don't want to easy) and dressing like you have no care for your personal appearance IMO is a sign of low self esteem, although I suppose it could just indicate a different cultural upbringing (that doesn't apply though if they culture you are brought up in is the British one).

I presume that 'I am done' means that you will not respond. That's a shame, I was trying to argue rationally and civilly with your ideas that I don't like, which is what you'd asked for earlier. 'I am done' is normally the statement of someone trying to get the last word in who knows that they can't prove their points.

Some Muslim clerics have advised their women to ditch their head scarves and other items of traditional dress to avoid becoming targets of abuse.

Some see this suggestion as giving in to the racists, but in some ways it makes sense, I feel.

Just as no one objects when western women are advised not to wear short skirts or other provocative clothing in Islamic counties, surely in these tense times it's sensible for Muslims not to dress in a way that would invite aggression.

Providing they are dressing how they want, and not to satisfy the desires of a husband / family / pressue group, then they should wear what they like, even if at times, they do look bloody stupid.

Providing they are dressing how they want, and not to satisfy the desires of a husband / family / pressue group, then they should wear what they like, even if at times, they do look bloody stupid.

I agree with this, dressing how they want to look even if they do look stupid.
Spot on ;)

I agree with this, dressing how they want to look even if they do look stupid.
Spot on ;)

Just popped my head back in quickly: then based on your point and MikeBaleys (agree to both) it is okay to then observe that the gothics may also look stupid but are free to do as they please. End of.:wave:

Just popped my head back in quickly: then based on your point and MikeBaleys (agree to both) it is okay to then observe that the gothics may also look stupid but are free to do as they please. End of.:wave:

I suppose it's okay, but what you mean is that they look stupid in your opinion, about which I expect they care little.

For someone who's keen to let muslim women dress in a hijab if they wish, you're awfully judgemental about other women dressing how they want.

Just popped my head back in quickly: then based on your point and MikeBaleys (agree to both) it is okay to then observe that the gothics may also look stupid but are free to do as they please. End of.:wave:

As long as they are hurting no one :)

Just popped my head back in quickly: then based on your point and MikeBaleys (agree to both) it is okay to then observe that the gothics may also look stupid but are free to do as they please. End of.:wave:

Absolutely. I am happy for someone to labour under the misapprehension they look alternative when they are actually dreadfully conformist and ritualistic.

I suppose it's okay, but what you mean is that they look stupid in your opinion, about which I expect they care little.

They invariably do care little - though dressing up in a Niqab when the weather is touching 100 degrees farenheit would get most other people sectioned.

What is the difference between a Muslim Woman's Black cloak with just her face appearing from it, and a traditional Black Nun's Habit?

I was expecting a rude punchline concerning breasts. Pah.

the way modesty is being attacked just further shows how much society has changed and is willing to just be a little too free perhaps..

Yes. I am all for living back in those glorious dark ages when people burnt witches at the stake, beleived the earth was flat and lived in fear of a non existent God.

Progress is for losers.

Me- a fundamental (if it means I know my religion and the fundamentals of prayer/fasting/charity then YES I am a fundamental- anyone with knowledge of a particular field should be a 'fundamental'. I am to in my professional career.There is no concept of "Fundamentalism" in Islam. The western media has coined this term to brand those Muslims who wish to return to the basic fundamental principles of Islam and mould their lives accordingly. Islam is a religion of moderation and a practicing God fearing Muslim can neither be a fanatic nor an extremist
Fundamentalism in your interpretation of being radical does not fit here and never will!

So, according to you then.... there are no fundamentalist Muslims? I guess I am going to have to take your word for that like I'm expected to take your word for all the other rubbish you have spouted.

And alot of them also know that you are a racist at heart(accussd by someone on SF) and anti Islamic and you give atheism a bad enough name with some of the rude and derogatory statements you've made over the periods. AT least the athiests like Wildcat/Chopsie/Mr Goose (to name a few) have the ability to be open minded and debate respectfully. Something YOU CAN'T MANAGE RAT. You have no knowledge on Islam and yet try to tarnish it whenever you can- at least come prepared if you're going to put up a challenge when you're preparing for a usual rant.

Well.... I'm not surprised, just surprised that it took you so long. You've lost the argument so you play the "Race Card." I bet you carry yours in your wallet: http://www.ovnow.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/FUNNYPICTURES/racecardmh6.jpg

Just because I don't agree with you, I am a racist.... that term is like water off a Ducks back to me, this is typical. Can you find no other way to hit back Bazooka? this term is old hat now and used far too often to be bothered about.... am I a bully as well? that seems to be the latest up and coming term.... you should include that word next time. I do pity you, you have shown your true colours.... I wonder how many times you've called someone a racist to get your own way?

As for me? Pick out one thread where I or any fellow muslims (like Plain Talker/Shabba/Tabs1/Flooz) has used foul language or stooped to your level-or abused your beliefs and whilst you're doing that- find one thread started by a muslim on any of the subjects you and other anti muslim SF members have ranted on about- I think it is common knowledge that all the subjects generated like Shariah Law/Banning 3 Little Pig story/Halal this-that/Imams in School etc.. have had nothing to do with any muslim starting it and when you take of your blinkers- you can at least acknowledge that its the NON MUSLIMS in positions in society that likes to honker on about things muslims do not even care about(most of the time at least)!

You see Bazooka.... if I see something wrong I will point it out.... its just hard to find anything good about Islam.... you obviously don't remember tab1 referring to me as an American loving, Jewish whore several times.... you show a similar comment made by me. The threads he made those comments in disappeared and seemed to be sabotaged for that very reason.... method in the madness eh? they were not particularly flattering to Islam and maybe too uncomfortable to debate.

IF YOU CAN MAINTAIN A BIT OF DECENCY AND STAY AWAY FROM ABUSING RELIGIONS AND BELIEFS AND AVOID STOOPING TO PERSONAL ABUSE THEN BY ALL MEANS LETS HAVE SOME GOOD HEARTED DEBATES..SHOULD OUR PATHS CROSS.

I will say what I think is right, even if you don't like it. I am in the UK here not Saudi Arabia and we have the right to free speech....

You are very selective in what questions you answer anyway.... you avoid the difficult ones, when you say all western women dress to make men attack them (that's pretty sick) and how devout Muslim men are.... I am still waiting for you to explain the Muslim men who organised a paedophile ring and abused young western girls.... oh! don't tell me, they are not true Muslims.

Mod note:

Posts removed.

Please communicate your points without resorting to personal insults.

I don't like the way people throw the word racist around these days. If you can't put your point across in a dignified manner then you are a loser. No amount of name calling is going to change that.

I don't like the way people throw the word racist around these days. If you can't put your point across in a dignified manner then you are a loser. No amount of name calling is going to change that.

I agree- and if the post is related to Rat (which has been removed due to his typical inability to speak in a dignified manner) then he has only gone and proved what I said in the previous post to his reply. Maybe he is happy to be considered a loser.

I agree- and if the post is related to Rat (which has been removed due to his typical inability to speak in a dignified manner) then he has only gone and proved what I said in the previous post to his reply. Maybe he is happy to be considered a loser.

I was referring to you.

I was referring to you.

Then read my pst properly- I did not accuse him of racism but said other(s) had- and he does not exactly 'hide' it well...and why was his above pst removed by admin??:gag:

Then read my pst properly- I did not accuse him of racism but said other(s) had- and he does not exactly 'hide' it well...and why was his above pst removed by admin??:gag:

Oh dear! once again you assume Bazooka.... no post of mine has been removed on this thread, you need to try a little closer at home to you for that one.... it seems, contrary to your thinking not all people like you are non abusive.... that one has been well and truly quashed now.

You did call me a racist and it is there for all to see, whether you imply or however you do it (and you do it again, highlighted above).... it is plain for all to see.... I could say that people think you might be capable of blowing yourself up but that would be as bad as saying it myself.... which I am not.... Just because I don't agree with you and you find yourself in a corner, well... you shouldn't have put yourself there in the first place.

You have made accusations against me and I have replied to you.... I expect you to answer my post above Bazooka.... or is it too tricky for you? An apology would be nice as well.

Then read my pst properly- I did not accuse him of racism but said other(s) had- and he does not exactly 'hide' it well...and why was his above pst removed by admin??:gag:

I did and that is nothing short of calling the rat a racist. I don't think his post was removed.

Actually, as I remember it....it was Bazooka's post that was removed after be started the whole name calling thing.....

I think Bazooka started to reveal his true colours in #101 or as it is now after removal of some posts # 99. He got a little rattled and let the mask slip and his true attitude to westernised men and women began to be revealed from then.

The above exchange shows the unwisdom of removing posts, imo. It's too easy for the offender to try to cast the blame onto another when no-one can see the actual sequence of events anymore.

I think Bazooka started to reveal his true colours in #101 or as it is now after removal of some posts # 99. He got a little rattled and let the mask slip and his true attitude to westernised men and women began to be revealed from then.

The above exchange shows the unwisdom of removing posts, imo. It's too easy for the offender to try to cast the blame onto another when no-one can see the actual sequence of events anymore.


I have to agree 100% with that!

Errr yeh my post got deleted too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rat
I think the vast majority of posters have already made their mind up about you and post 101 seems to me to be the basis of your fundamental beliefs.

Me- a fundamental (if it means I know my religion and the fundamentals of prayer/fasting/charity then YES I am a fundamental- anyone with knowledge of a particular field should be a 'fundamental'. I am to in my professional career.There is no concept of "Fundamentalism" in Islam. The western media has coined this term to brand those Muslims who wish to return to the basic fundamental principles of Islam and mould their lives accordingly. Islam is a religion of moderation and a practicing God fearing Muslim can neither be a fanatic nor an extremist
Fundamentalism in your interpretation of being radical does not fit here and never will!

And alot of posters also know that you are a racist at heart(accussd by someone on SF) and anti Islamic and you give atheism a bad enough name with some of the rude and derogatory statements you've made over the periods. AT least the athiests like Wildcat/Chopsie/Mr Goose (to name a few) have the ability to be open minded and debate respectfully. Something YOU CAN'T MANAGE RAT. You have no knowledge on Islam and yet try to tarnish it whenever you can- at least come prepared if you're going to put up a challenge when you're preparing for a usual rant.

As for me? Pick out one thread where I or any fellow muslims (like Plain Talker/Shabba/Tabs1/Flooz) has used foul language or stooped to your level-or abused your beliefs and whilst you're doing that- find one thread started by a muslim on any of the subjects you and other anti muslim SF members have ranted on about- I think it is common knowledge that all the subjects generated like Shariah Law/Banning 3 Little Pig story/Halal this-that/Imams in School etc.. have had nothing to do with any muslim starting it and when you take of your blinkers- you can at least acknowledge that its the NON MUSLIMS in positions in society that likes to honker on about things muslims do not even care about(most of the time at least)!

IF YOU CAN MAINTAIN A BIT OF DECENCY AND STAY AWAY FROM ABUSING RELIGIONS AND BELIEFS AND AVOID STOOPING TO PERSONAL ABUSE THEN BY ALL MEANS LETS HAVE SOME GOOD HEARTED DEBATES..SHOULD OUR PATHS CROSS.

That's my post- I see no way how that is negative. And as for 'true colours' point, my true colours is whatever is true and not fabricated. What others judge upon is their choice. If the post was another- then it was what is based on observation and if those who found it offensive may have read it wrong- but the point was there to be seen not to create an analysis and draw all sorts of conclusions. :wave:

Personally I think they should. Like said in the OP. Western women are asked to respect the local's by not dressing provocatively and with the exception of some idiots the places i've been it seems to be done. So I think all things equal and all, they should perhaps respect the way we dress in this country.

Personally I think they should. Like said in the OP. Western women are asked to respect the local's by not dressing provocatively and with the exception of some idiots the places i've been it seems to be done. So I think all things equal and all, they should perhaps respect the way we dress in this country.

That makes no sense. Women have fought long and hard for the right and acceptance to wear whatever they want in this country. Why on earth should we restrict that right because some people want to dress modestly? Why should we reduce our standards to that of an other country, that you condemn? The whole point of this thread is so stupid, it is absurd.

Personally I think they should. Like said in the OP. Western women are asked to respect the local's by not dressing provocatively and with the exception of some idiots the places i've been it seems to be done. So I think all things equal and all, they should perhaps respect the way we dress in this country.

so by inference you are telling us that muslim women should be made to dress provocatively, here in the UK, seeing as women are expected to "cover" in muslim countries?

If a woman wants to dress in a modest fashion, then that's surely up to her? I've never liked having my "wares" on show for all to see. I've always preferred/ been more comfortable wearing longer hemlines and higher necklines.

How, exactly is some woman wearing a longer skirt or a scarf on one's head a problem for you or for anyone else? how is wearing a modest ouutfit "not respecting" the way we dress in the UK?

I was going down a street in the city centre just the other day, and I saw:-
a chap wearing a suit,
a woman "power-dresssed",
a couple of people wearing jeans and a sweater, (looked hike-ey types)
I saw a somali lady wearing a traditional somali cape type outfit.
some student-y looking young women with woolen, multicloured dreadlocks woven into their own hair,
some young men wearing their trousers hanging off their backsides,
I saw a tramp, sorry the homeless man with about five pairs of trousers and four hats together
an Indian family, with the ladies wearing saris,
I saw a man wearig the Arab "gown" thing that Saudi men tend to wear.
I saw a woman in Shalwar Kameez, with an asian man wearing Pyjama.
I saw a couple of police officers in their uniform and hi-vis jackets, and a couple of city centre ambassadors in their blue uniform coats.

what else? oh, yes:-
an elderly lady wearing a thick woolen coat and a headscarf over rollers in her hair.
I saw a young mother pushing her pram;- she was wearing a tracksuit-y top and low slung trousers.
As I passed the market, a few minutes later, I saw a chap who obviously worked in one of the butchers stalls, wearing a white lab coat -type thing and a bloodied apron with blue stripes.

So of all the possible clothing combinations, that a citizen of this country could wear, about the only two things I did not see someone wearing, wa a) someone naked, and b) someone in a bowler hat carrying an umbrella.

so which of these customary outfits would you recommend the muslim women wear instead?

I'd have no problems with them wearing anything that doesnt completely cover them from head to toe. Its intimidating if truth be told. In a time when people who wear hoods are condemmed and in certain public areas told they cannot be worn, why should other members of society be allowed to wear clothing that completely conceals their identity?

The reference to islamic countries was to make a comparison that if western visitors should respect their wishes, visitors to our country should respect ours. And if concealing someones identity is intimidating for folk then it shouldnt be allowed

Immigrants should intergate in to the country that they are settling into, I couldn't go to Saudi Arabia, and drive my car wearing a bikini, that is the law of the land, women aren't allowed to dress in an "improper" manner or able to drive. End of. Why should immigrants here refuse to roll up their sleeves if they are Muslim doctors to prevent infection/bacteria spreading? Surely it is a case of good sense.

Oh dear! once again you assume Bazooka.... no post of mine has been removed on this thread, you need to try a little closer at home to you for that one.... it seems, contrary to your thinking not all people like you are non abusive.... that one has been well and truly quashed now.

You did call me a racist and it is there for all to see, whether you imply or however you do it (and you do it again, highlighted above).... it is plain for all to see.... I could say that people think you might be capable of blowing yourself up but that would be as bad as saying it myself.... which I am not.... Just because I don't agree with you and you find yourself in a corner, well... you shouldn't have put yourself there in the first place.

You have made accusations against me and I have replied to you.... I expect you to answer my post above Bazooka.... or is it too tricky for you? An apology would be nice as well.

The bizarre thing is whilst you have argued in response to racism allegations that people calling you racist are trying to shut down your arguments and that the term doesn't mean anything. The fact is it wouldn't shut down debate, if you simply accepted or rejected the term with a simple answer to the allegation. Despite the allegations (and there have been a few), I don't recall you have ever actually denied that you are a racist ie that you think some races are superior to others. Perhaps you could answer this question?

Before complaining about ad-hominem attacks, you have supplied numerous examples of such tactics on threads since joing SF. A recent example, do you think your outburst the other day describing someone deliberating about how to express their disapproval at intrusive racist comments as a 'little rich bitch' 'worried about breaking a painted finger nail' was a proper constructive way to conduct a debate? Ref (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=3308865&postcount=122)

When you are quite happy to use ad-hominem attacks yourself, playing the victim here doesn't wash.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rat
I think the vast majority of posters have already made their mind up about you and post 101 seems to me to be the basis of your fundamental beliefs.

Me- a fundamental (if it means I know my religion and the fundamentals of prayer/fasting/charity then YES I am a fundamental- anyone with knowledge of a particular field should be a 'fundamental'. I am to in my professional career.There is no concept of "Fundamentalism" in Islam. The western media has coined this term to brand those Muslims who wish to return to the basic fundamental principles of Islam and mould their lives accordingly. Islam is a religion of moderation and a practicing God fearing Muslim can neither be a fanatic nor an extremist
Fundamentalism in your interpretation of being radical does not fit here and never will!

And alot of posters also know that you are a racist at heart(accussd by someone on SF) and anti Islamic and you give atheism a bad enough name with some of the rude and derogatory statements you've made over the periods. AT least the athiests like Wildcat/Chopsie/Mr Goose (to name a few) have the ability to be open minded and debate respectfully. Something YOU CAN'T MANAGE RAT. You have no knowledge on Islam and yet try to tarnish it whenever you can- at least come prepared if you're going to put up a challenge when you're preparing for a usual rant.

As for me? Pick out one thread where I or any fellow muslims (like Plain Talker/Shabba/Tabs1/Flooz) has used foul language or stooped to your level-or abused your beliefs and whilst you're doing that- find one thread started by a muslim on any of the subjects you and other anti muslim SF members have ranted on about- I think it is common knowledge that all the subjects generated like Shariah Law/Banning 3 Little Pig story/Halal this-that/Imams in School etc.. have had nothing to do with any muslim starting it and when you take of your blinkers- you can at least acknowledge that its the NON MUSLIMS in positions in society that likes to honker on about things muslims do not even care about(most of the time at least)!

IF YOU CAN MAINTAIN A BIT OF DECENCY AND STAY AWAY FROM ABUSING RELIGIONS AND BELIEFS AND AVOID STOOPING TO PERSONAL ABUSE THEN BY ALL MEANS LETS HAVE SOME GOOD HEARTED DEBATES..SHOULD OUR PATHS CROSS.

That's my post- I see no way how that is negative. And as for 'true colours' point, my true colours is whatever is true and not fabricated. What others judge upon is their choice. If the post was another- then it was what is based on observation and if those who found it offensive may have read it wrong- but the point was there to be seen not to create an analysis and draw all sorts of conclusions. :wave:

This is just a copy of the post I answered in my post #181. What is the point of re-posting it again? I read it the first time and I answered you with the expectation that you would answer the accusations that you levelled at me.... but I guess you can't. Maybe you are just full of hot air?

You accused me of being a racist because you lost the argument a long time ago and even now you are showing yourself for what you are.... a man of no integrity.... selective morals.... a man who procures name calling then tries to throw it back on me as if I started all the very things you accuse me of.... this also makes you very hypocritical and you are also someone who will not own up to things you have done.... in short, you have no honour.

The bizarre thing is whilst you have argued in response to racism allegations that people calling you racist are trying to shut down your arguments and that the term doesn't mean anything. The fact is it wouldn't shut down debate, if you simply accepted or rejected the term with a simple answer to the allegation. Despite the allegations (and there have been a few), I don't recall you have ever actually denied that you are a racist ie that you think some races are superior to others. Perhaps you could answer this question?

Before complaining about ad-hominem attacks, you have supplied numerous examples of such tactics on threads since joing SF. A recent example, do you think your outburst the other day describing someone deliberating about how to express their disapproval at intrusive racist comments as a 'little rich bitch' 'worried about breaking a painted finger nail' was a proper constructive way to conduct a debate? Ref (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=3308865&postcount=122)

When you are quite happy to use ad-hominem attacks yourself, playing the victim here doesn't wash.

Bizarre thing is that you attack me to condone the actions of Bazooka.... I wonder why that is and what you stand to gain by making a liar try to look legitimate?

I think Bazooka and TheRat have more or less cleared the air and set out their positions clearly enough. Shall we get back on the topic, before the mods decide enough is enough and close the thread down?

I would just reiterate that I have no problem at all with women - or men come to that - dressing modestly or wearing their national dress or head coverings, whatever.

I do, however, think that even if only purely for security reasons in this day and age, that the full on black gown, veil and gloves are OTT and unnecessary, both from a religious and cultural aspect. The culture that women in UK are living in, is their culture also, if they claim British nationality. And we already know from our observations that the full outfit is not a religious requirement. Not even the hijaab is a religious requirement, in point of fact.

So, NO, asian descent Muslim women should not stop wearing their traditional dress in public, if they feel comfortable in it, but the veil should be discouraged in a public place.

<snip>

So, NO, asian descent Muslim women should not stop wearing their traditional dress in public, if they feel comfortable in it, but the veil should be discouraged in a public place.

Does that include brides at a christian marriage ceremony? Or are Christians allowed to wear veils, but not muslims?

Bizarre thing is that you attack me to condone the actions of Bazooka.... I wonder why that is and what you stand to gain by making a liar try to look legitimate?

I have seen Bazooka clarify posts made in defence of Islam that were not in his interests to do so. That doesn't incline me to believe that he has any intent to deceive.

Can you cite an example of Bazooka being deceptive?

My interests like Bazooka's are an understanding and discussion based on facts and not misrepresentations.

you dont see many brides shopping

Does that include brides at a christian marriage ceremony? Or are Christians allowed to wear veils, but not muslims?
Now you are really just being stupid. Grow up!

I have seen Bazooka clarify posts made in defence of Islam that were not in his interests to do so. That doesn't incline me to believe that he has any intent to deceive.

Can you cite an example of Bazooka being deceptive?

My interests like Bazooka's are an understanding and discussion based on facts and not misrepresentations.

I presume you can read.... now go and play with people on another thread unless of course you just wish to carry on making silly statements:

View Post
Does that include brides at a christian marriage ceremony? Or are Christians allowed to wear veils, but not muslims?

Or whether you have something serious to add.

I was going down a street in the city centre just the other day, and I saw:-
a chap wearing a suit,
a woman "power-dresssed",
a couple of people wearing jeans and a sweater, (looked hike-ey types)
I saw a somali lady wearing a traditional somali cape type outfit.
some student-y looking young women with woolen, multicloured dreadlocks woven into their own hair,
some young men wearing their trousers hanging off their backsides,
I saw a tramp, sorry the homeless man with about five pairs of trousers and four hats together
an Indian family, with the ladies wearing saris,
I saw a man wearig the Arab "gown" thing that Saudi men tend to wear.
I saw a woman in Shalwar Kameez, with an asian man wearing Pyjama.
I saw a couple of police officers in their uniform and hi-vis jackets, and a couple of city centre ambassadors in their blue uniform coats.

what else? oh, yes:-
an elderly lady wearing a thick woolen coat and a headscarf over rollers in her hair.
I saw a young mother pushing her pram;- she was wearing a tracksuit-y top and low slung trousers.
As I passed the market, a few minutes later, I saw a chap who obviously worked in one of the butchers stalls, wearing a white lab coat -type thing and a bloodied apron with blue stripes.

So of all the possible clothing combinations, that a citizen of this country could wear, about the only two things I did not see someone wearing, wa a) someone naked, and b) someone in a bowler hat carrying an umbrella.

so which of these customary outfits would you recommend the muslim women wear instead?

lol. I see why you have your name as "plain talker" :)

Now you are really just being stupid. Grow up!

I am not being stupid. What you are proposing is a law specifically against the Veils worn by one religion.

Would you also ban veils worn during mourning by Catholics?

Mod note:

If people can't discuss an issue without becoming childish, petty and in some instances downright rude, then the thread will be closed and bans may be issued.

You all know the rules about how to communicate on this forum. If you don't, then maybe you ought to acquaint yourselves with them.

I am not being stupid. What you are proposing is a law specifically against the Veils worn by one religion.

Would you also ban veils worn during mourning by Catholics?
If I wasn't a very polite person, and not wanting to get into name calling ... I'd say you were an idiot, but I am, so I won't.

What has an item connected only to weddings and only worn by very few brides these days, anyway, and rarely over the face ... to do with routinely wearing a full face veil to go about your everyday business?

And as for a law? When did I mention a law?

I presume you can read.... now go and play with people on another thread unless of course you just wish to carry on making silly statements:



Or whether you have something serious to add.

I can read enough to see that you never answer a question.

I am not being stupid. What you are proposing is a law specifically against the Veils worn by one religion.

Would you also ban veils worn during mourning by Catholics?

From sublime to the ridiculous. :roll:

I can read enough to see that you never answer a question.

I think you address that to the wrong person.... have you come here just to argue and have this thread closed down? I can think of an individual who would like to see this thread disappear so I will choose to ignore you from now on Wildcat.....

If I wasn't a very polite person, and not wanting to get into name calling ... I'd say you were an idiot, but I am, so I won't.

What has an item connected only to weddings and only worn by very few brides these days, anyway, and rarely over the face ... to do with routinely wearing a full face veil to go about your everyday business?

And as for a law? When did I mention a law?

I am not stupid, I will take your words as the insult that they are intended as.

I will rephrase then, would you want to discourage Catholics wearing a veil in mourning and brides wearing veils in a public place?

I think you address that to the wrong person.... have you come here just to argue and have this thread closed down? I can think of an individual who would like to see this thread disappear so I will choose to ignore you from now on Wildcat.....

Still no answer then.

I am not stupid, I will take your words as the insult that they are intended as.

I will rephrase then, would you want to discourage Catholics wearing a veil in mourning and brides wearing veils in a public place?

Now, that is debatable. :hihi:

I am not stupid, I will take your words as the insult that they are intended as. I will rephrase then, would you want to discourage Catholics wearing a veil in mourning and brides wearing veils in a public place?
I refer you to the answer I gave some moments ago.

Moving on, what is the answer to the security aspect of people able to conceal their identity by wearing of the veil and black overdress? For example, the recent raid on a jeweller facilitated by a man wearing the veil outfit? Any comments?

I refer you to the answer I gave some moments ago.

Moving on, what is the answer to the security aspect of people able to conceal their identity by wearing of the veil and black overdress? For example, the recent raid on a jeweller facilitated by a man wearing the veil outfit? Any comments? it could have been an irish bride in mourning

I think Bazooka and TheRat have more or less cleared the air and set out their positions clearly enough. Shall we get back on the topic, before the mods decide enough is enough and close the thread down?[/QUOTE
I have no problem with Rat in any other way that he/she should just be a bit more courteous whether winning or losing a battle.
[QUOTE]I would just reiterate that I have no problem at all with women - or men come to that - dressing modestly or wearing their national dress or head coverings, whatever.

That's good and I am sure alot of people don't too.

I do, however, think that even if only purely for security reasons in this day and age, that the full on black gown, veil and gloves are OTT and unnecessary, both from a religious and cultural aspect. The culture that women in UK are living in, is their culture also, if they claim British nationality. And we already know from our observations that the full outfit is not a religious requirement. Not even the hijaab is a religious requirement, in point of fact.

Unless you've become an expert on the Quran overnight, I would refrain from making such comments based on 'your understandings'. There are some orientalists who try to explain the Quran with very little knowledge and just interpret the verses to satisfy those who they bow down to. Lets leave that to the real scholars who unanimously agree based on the Quranic verses) that what God ordained is pure and better than what others wish you to believe and do.
So, NO, asian descent Muslim women should not stop wearing their traditional dress in public, if they feel comfortable in it, but the veil should be discouraged in a public place.

So who is being specific now- I get attacked about making a point on indecent dress (not mentioning any faith or colour) and you specify their faith and inadvertently their race?? A muslim woman who wears an hijab (outer garment) is not wearing it for 'the sake of it' or to 'feel comfortable but for her own beliefs- esepcially what you see here and in USA more and more.
The 'veil' (if you refer to face cover) then that is optional and not compulsory-based on some opinions and those who wear it, I guess do so to be closer to God and some do see it as being better- but to my understanding, there is sufficient evidence to point out that covering eveything else except the hands and face is suffice (this covering of the body can be any loose flowing clothing but the aubiya is best suited for most).

I refer you to the answer I gave some moments ago.

Moving on, what is the answer to the security aspect of people able to conceal their identity by wearing of the veil and black overdress? For example, the recent raid on a jeweller facilitated by a man wearing the veil outfit? Any comments?

Its a valid point.... as a society we are not used to people covering themselves from head to toe and the shopkeeper was not to know there was not a woman but a man concealed under that clothing intent on robbing them

Also, wearing the full burqa means the person is not allowed in say, a factory environment over health and safety issues as they are a fire hazard.... a Teacher recently lost her job over the issue of wearing the burqa.... there are simply times when its not practical to do this....

So who is being specific now- I get attacked about making a point on indecent dress (not mentioning any faith or colour) and you specify their faith and inadvertently their race?? A muslim woman who wears an hijab (outer garment) is not wearing it for 'the sake of it' or to 'feel comfortable but for her own beliefs- esepcially what you see here and in USA more and more.
The 'veil' (if you refer to face cover) then that is optional and not compulsory-based on some opinions and those who wear it, I guess do so to be closer to God and some do see it as being better- but to my understanding, there is sufficient evidence to point out that covering eveything else except the hands and face is suffice (this covering of the body can be any loose flowing clothing but the aubiya is best suited for most).

Will you answer my points on post #181?

Bazooka, I specified asian descent women because we are talking about Muslim women wearing 'traditional' dress in public, are we not? Also I've tried to move the debate on from my previous post, I will answer.

There is no traditional Muslim dress afaik. Every Muslim woman I know wears something different. Some wear ordinary clothes, some wear ordinary clothes with a folded headscarf (which I thought was called a hijab, obviously wrongly), some wear the tunic and trousers with a bit of chiffon round their head and shoulders, some wear that long coat thing with a headscarf arrangement and a very few wear the full black outfit with a veil and sometimes even a bit of mesh over their eyes.

It's the latter I'm talking about now, purely from a security aspect. I'm not even going into the oppression and gender bias aspect of it at all. I've just given up on that altogether, as it's obvious where you're coming from and you appear to be dominating this discussion.

I refer you to the answer I gave some moments ago.

Moving on, what is the answer to the security aspect of people able to conceal their identity by wearing of the veil and black overdress? For example, the recent raid on a jeweller facilitated by a man wearing the veil outfit? Any comments?

The fact that his face is unidentifiable, is really a minor issue in terms of identification. His finger prints are better identification. If we are concerned about clothing preventing identification perhaps we could discourage wearing gloves?

The issue has to be kept in context. For many Muslim women wearing niqab is a symbol of feminism and independence, an act of rebellion against their parents, in a similar way to every other adolescent. No matter how we might rationalise it differently, it makes no difference, what matters is the reasons that people chose to make the statement they do in the clothes they wear.

I don't think we have any right to intervene, and also the more we do intervene the more people will want to rebel, it is human nature. Any intervention or public statements of condemnation would be counter productive.

It is a free country for people to express themselves as they wish. I am not prepared to compromise on freedom of expression, especially not where the intent is positive.

As I have said before, I wear my headscarf because I want to be appreciated for my intellect and personality, and not be objectified. No man has told me that I HAVE to wear it, it is purely my own choice, as it is for most of my Muslim friends who also wear it.

I am not stupid, I will take your words as the insult that they are intended as.

I will rephrase then, would you want to discourage Catholics wearing a veil in mourning and brides wearing veils in a public place?
as a lapsed catholic i can only say that it is a very long time since i saw a widow wear a veil,when i saw one once she wore it in the car following the hearse,in the church,at the internment then removed it once she arrived home,all covering less than a couple of hours,as for a bride,she wears it to the church,then removes it after the blessing to kiss her new husband,thats less than an hour she would have been wearing it

The issue has to be kept in context. For many Muslim women wearing niqab is a symbol of feminism and independence, an act of rebellion against their parents, in a similar way to every other adolescent. No matter how we might rationalise it differently, it makes no difference, what matters is the reasons that people chose to make the statement they do in the clothes they wear.

I don't think we have any right to intervene, and also the more we do intervene the more people will want to rebel, it is human nature. Any intervention or public statements of condemnation would be counter productive.

I'm unsure whether you could call it feminism but I do agree that a lot of the more strident expressions of islamism by young muslims (male and female) is just standard run of the mill teenage rebelion which will run it's course when they grow up.

as a lapsed catholic i can only say that it is a very long time since i saw a widow wear a veil,when i saw one once she wore it in the car following the hearse,in the church,at the internment then removed it once she arrived home,all covering less than a couple of hours,as for a bride,she wears it to the church,then removes it after the blessing to kiss her new husband,thats less than an hour she would have been wearing itActually, the one and only person I ever saw wear a widow's weeds, was one of my aunties, years ago when her husband died, and she was Anglican, so not sure what the specific mention of Catholics is about tbh :huh:

Many of the things being posted on this and associated threads seem to be misunderstandings and wrongly interpreted 'received wisdom' about our 'English' ways of living and other religions ways of doing things. The Catholics wearing a mourning veil, certainly seems like something from the last century if not the one before! And I can't remember the last time I saw a bride with her veil over her face! It's considered a bit old fashioned these days, surely?

Bazooka, I specified asian descent women because we are talking about Muslim women wearing 'traditional' dress in public, are we not? Also I've tried to move the debate on from my previous post, I will answer.

There is no traditional Muslim dress afaik. Every Muslim woman I know wears something different. Some wear ordinary clothes, some wear ordinary clothes with a folded headscarf (which I thought was called a hijab, obviously wrongly), some wear the tunic and trousers with a bit of chiffon round their head and shoulders, some wear that long coat thing with a headscarf arrangement and a very few wear the full black outfit with a veil and sometimes even a bit of mesh over their eyes.

It's the latter I'm talking about now, purely from a security aspect. I'm not even going into the oppression and gender bias aspect of it at all. I've just given up on that altogether, as it's obvious where you're coming from and you appear to be dominating this discussion.

Again- just to mention that your 'source' or islamic knowledge is not your best point and if you really deeply want to know about something that is bugging you, feel free to ask one of the muslims on SF- you may get directed to some staight forward knowledge with no ambuiguity.
Also, I am not dominating this thread- TBH I did not even want to go into it and have lost interest too-but was only pointing out 1-2 points (as you were to I guess), but as usual things go off subject. What I won't sit back and watch is someone trying to explain Islam or the Quran without knowledge (especially non muslims) who usually are misquoting or been clearly misinformed.

Otherwise, I have no issue with you- despite some assumption you make about me/others, i don't think we have had a problem in the past and I don't want one either.
Knowledge is a source of strength and I respect anyone with knowledge in their subject or who produces and argues with wisdom and can back up their points- (like Wildcat).

Again- just to mention that your 'source' or islamic knowledge is not your best point and if you really deeply want to know about something that is bugging you, feel free to ask one of the muslims on SF- you may get directed to some staight forward knowledge with no ambuiguity.
Also, I am not dominating this thread- TBH I did not even want to go into it and have lost interest too-but was only pointing out 1-2 points (as you were to I guess), but as usual things go off subject. What I won't sit back and watch is someone trying to explain Islam or the Quran without knowledge (especially non muslims) who usually are misquoting or been clearly misinformed.

Otherwise, I have no issue with you- despite some assumption you make about me/others, i don't think we have had a problem in the past and I don't want one either.
Knowledge is a source of strength and I respect anyone with knowledge in their subject or who produces and argues with wisdom and can back up their points- (like Wildcat).

Does your credibility and moral standing just extend to playing the race card when you are cornered or do you just choose silence when you are outgunned?

You are very arrogant and you seem to think you are due respect but your veil has slipped somewhat.... I am glad about that as you have made your views about western men and women and the way you see them very apparent for all to see.... you cannot hide the truth. Ignoring it will not make it go away.... I have no respect for you whatsoever as you can give insults without justification and you can't answer a challenge.... I don't think you have any credibility left here.

as a lapsed catholic i can only say that it is a very long time since i saw a widow wear a veil,when i saw one once she wore it in the car following the hearse,in the church,at the internment then removed it once she arrived home,all covering less than a couple of hours,as for a bride,she wears it to the church,then removes it after the blessing to kiss her new husband,thats less than an hour she would have been wearing it

Not on topic with the veil (which I regard as face cover) but in I Corinthians 11:3-10 it is commanded even by the Bible that covering the head is required from the woman. I think this explains that modesty in religions go hand in hand- and those who are of the religious mind could not dress in anything that would not conform with their beliefs.

just to mention that your 'source' or islamic knowledge is not your best point and if you really deeply want to know about something that is bugging you, feel free to ask one of the muslims on SF- you may get directed to some staight forward knowledge with no ambuiguity.
lol, neither of us know much about the others way of life, eh? Although I don't think I'd dare to be as insulting about your set, as you've been about mine! I really prefer to deal with people I can see, not people who hide behind a screen to do their insulting :) If we're being straight, I've not yet come across an 'outed' muslim on SF who is anything but sexist, arrogant and patronising in their responses, but I guess there'll be a first time sometime :)

Obviously sometimes even Muslims don't know their own names for things that well. Every reference I've seen has called the headscarf a hijab. Now I see that it refers to more than the head covering and in fact it was orginally a screen between a man and a woman ... btw Bazooka, this is from the WIKI, ok?

The term hijab or veil is not used in the Qur'an to refer to an article of clothing for women or men, rather it refers to a spatial curtain that divides or provides privacy. The Qur'an instructs the male believers (Muslims) to talk to wives of Muhammad behind a hijab. This hijab was the responsibility of the men and not the wives of Muhammad. However, in later Muslim societies this instruction specific to the wives of Muhammad was generalized, leading to the segregation of the Muslim men and women. The modesty in Qur'an concerns both men's and women's gaze, gait, garments, and genitalia. The clothing for women involves khumūr over the necklines and jilbab (cloaks) in public so that they may be identified and not harmed. Guidelines for covering of the entire body except for the hands, the feet, and the face, are found in texts of fiqh and hadith that are developed later.

hmm! interesting ... so why do so many not wear anything like this in public? Either it's a requirement or it's not?

Not on topic with the veil (which I regard as face cover) but in I Corinthians 11:3-10 it is commanded even by the Bible that covering the head is required from the woman. I think this explains that modesty in religions go hand in hand- and those who are of the religious mind could not dress in anything that would not conform with their beliefs.
Why do you always go back thousands of years for your directives? The vast majority of women don't wear anything on their heads even in church these days, unless it's something special like a wedding.

lol, neither of us know much about the others way of life, eh? Although I don't think I'd dare to be as insulting about your set, as you've been about mine! I really prefer to deal with people I can see, not people who hide behind a screen to do their insulting :) If we're being straight, I've not yet come across an 'outed' muslim on SF who is anything but sexist, arrogant and patronising in their responses, but I guess there'll be a first time sometime :)

Obviously sometimes even Muslims don't know their own names for things that well. Every reference I've seen has called the headscarf a hijab. Now I see that it refers to more than the head covering and in fact it was orginally a screen between a man and a woman ... btw Bazooka, this is from the WIKI, ok?

The term hijab or veil is not used in the Qur'an to refer to an article of clothing for women or men, rather it refers to a spatial curtain that divides or provides privacy. The Qur'an instructs the male believers (Muslims) to talk to wives of Muhammad behind a hijab. This hijab was the responsibility of the men and not the wives of Muhammad. However, in later Muslim societies this instruction specific to the wives of Muhammad was generalized, leading to the segregation of the Muslim men and women. The modesty in Qur'an concerns both men's and women's gaze, gait, garments, and genitalia. The clothing for women involves khumūr over the necklines and jilbab (cloaks) in public so that they may be identified and not harmed. Guidelines for covering of the entire body except for the hands, the feet, and the face, are found in texts of fiqh and hadith that are developed later.

hmm! interesting ...

Remember the Quran is in arabic and the two words in the Quran are "khimaar" (head cover or scarf that covers upto neck) and "jalabibi-hina" (outer garment). I think the rest is pretty easy to work out but of course, everyone is entitled to interpret how they see it- but those who usually are against it(just the head cover) are usually very misinformed and do not wish to comply with any ruling. Period.

Also, here's an interesting view on the 'subject' from a North American University graduate http://www.islamdoor.com/w_body_own.html
Maybe will shed some light for some.

(my bold) I thought that what forums were- to discuss and debate (you used the word insult) but i do not think I did in anyway. And if you wanted to put a face to a name- just ask and I am sure we can say hello.:)

And if you wanted to put a face to a name- just ask and I am sure we can say hello.:)
Remember, though, according to the WIKI, it's your responsiblity to bring the screen for us to argue through! :D

lol, neither of us know much about the others way of life, eh? Although I don't think I'd dare to be as insulting about your set, as you've been about mine! I really prefer to deal with people I can see, not people who hide behind a screen to do their insulting :) If we're being straight, I've not yet come across an 'outed' muslim on SF who is anything but sexist, arrogant and patronising in their responses, but I guess there'll be a first time sometime :)

<snip>

Yes, PlainTalker is well known for her chauvinism. And muslims attempts to be understood and explain misconceptions are plainly arrogant and patronising. They should be uniformly humble when countering the wisdom spouted by the armchair intellectuals of SF with their unbiassed references and theit commonsense wisdom. The very thought that people who actually follow the religion might be upset because we understand the religion and their reasons for following it better than they do is incredulous, a blatant disrespectful insult to our intelligence.

At least, Ruby we need never fear that you could ever be so patronising. Afterall how could anyone think you are patronising when you are always right?

Not on topic with the veil (which I regard as face cover) but in I Corinthians 11:3-10 it is commanded even by the Bible that covering the head is required from the woman. I think this explains that modesty in religions go hand in hand- and those who are of the religious mind could not dress in anything that would not conform with their beliefs.
i do see your point,but as rubyd.. pointed out,it is considered old fashioned nowadays,and as i also posted it was a very long time ago when i last saw a veil at a wedding or funeral,the funeral i refered to ,if memory serves was around forty years ago .

Yes, PlainTalker is well known for her chauvinism. And muslims attempts to be understood and explain misconceptions are plainly arrogant and patronising. They should be uniformly humble when countering the wisdom spouted by the armchair intellectuals of SF with their unbiassed references and theit commonsense wisdom. The very thought that people who actually follow the religion might be upset because we understand the religion and their reasons for following it better than they do is incredulous, a blatant disrespectful insult to our intelligence.

At least, Ruby we need never fear that you could ever be so patronising. Afterall how could anyone think you are patronising when you are always right?
I don't count Plain Talker ... she's not anyone I was referring to, and I wasn't referring to you either, come to that.

I'm so glad that you appreciate the rightness of my essential being though, Wildcat. Some of the stuff that's been posted on various threads over the months about English people's behaviour and the insulting remarks that have been made about us and our way of life, as though we're all the same, beggar belief.

And yet you're complaining that 'armchair intellectuals' are misunderstanding Islam? Try swallowing a little bit of the humble pie you're recommending for others, and I hope it doesn't stick in your throat.

I don't count Plain Talker ... she's not anyone I was referring to, and I wasn't referring to you either, come to that.

I'm so glad that you appreciate the rightness of my essential being though, Wildcat. Some of the stuff that's been posted on various threads over the months about English people's behaviour and the insulting remarks that have been made about us and our way of life, as though we're all the same, beggar belief.

And yet you're complaining that 'armchair intellectuals' are misunderstanding Islam? Try swallowing a little bit of the humble pie you're recommending for others, and I hope it doesn't stick in your throat.

Thank you for your good wishes. You don't need to worry humble pie has never yet stuck in my throat.

I too have noticed a handful of comments made by muslims that have been disrespectful and whilst I condemn these, in the majority of cases these are directly provoked, and where they aren't directly provoked I think they can be understood in terms of the obvious disrespect expressed for their religion routinely by a handful of people with an agenda that has nothing to do with acquiring knowledge or understanding.

Thank you for your good wishes. You don't need to worry humble pie has never yet stuck in my throat.

I too have noticed a handful of comments made by muslims that have been disrespectful and whilst I condemn these, in the majority of cases these are directly provoked, and where they aren't directly provoked I think they can be understood in terms of the obvious disrespect expressed for their religion routinely by a handful of people with an agenda that has nothing to do with acquiring knowledge or understanding.

I wonder where the Muslims on this forum would be without you to take a "special" interest in them.

So far, I have not liked what I have seen posted by Bazooka, yet you fervently defend him as though he can do no wrong.

Something is not quite right here.

The ONLY people who can answer the question posed in the thread title are Muslim women. And even then, just for themselves on a personal level.

Who is anyone on this forum to say what someone else should or should not wear?

A very good answer, there, Squiggs.

The ONLY people who can answer the question posed in the thread title are Muslim women. And even then, just for themselves on a personal level.

Who is anyone on this forum to say what someone else should or should not wear?

I don't think Muslim women forced to wear top to toe black have much of a voice about anything in the Islamic world.

Good point though, but you might have to ask Bazooka about that one. He has views on us western women and he has views on how his women should dress, he has views on everything Islamic and he is always right. Allah says so!

I wonder where the Muslims on this forum would be without you to take a "special" interest in them.

So far, I have not liked what I have seen posted by Bazooka, yet you fervently defend him as though he can do no wrong.

Something is not quite right here.

I am an atheist so I have plenty of differences of opinion with Bazooka. But my experience of this forum and others leads me to be suspicious of the motives of anyone attacking Islam.

Bazooka on the one hand I know to be interested in creating an understanding. Where I have made a refutation on his behalf based on a misunderstanding he corrected me even though it weakened his defence on the the allegation made against his religion. Bazooka I therefore have time for as someone who is interested in the truth. There are others on this thread (and the numerous others) who have been nothing but abusive towards Islam and so far as I can see are not interested in gaining an understanding, just in scoring cheap points and trying to provoke others into making them look better.

Does that include brides at a christian marriage ceremony? Or are Christians allowed to wear veils, but not muslims?


This is an utterly ridiculous comparison. A bride's veil is sheer and can be seen through and, as others have pointed out, is only worn for a short period of time. The full covering some muslim women wear that show only their eyes can certainly be a security issue as there is no way to tell who is under that clothing....could be a devout, honest muslim woman, or a extremist bomb toting nutter muslim man or woman. The full face covering has no place in the west.

Who is anyone on this forum to say what someone else should or should not wear?

Probably Muslim men as some demand their wives to wear them and don't allow them out in public without wearing them.

This is an utterly ridiculous comparison. A bride's veil is sheer and can be seen through and, as others have pointed out, is only worn for a short period of time. The full covering some muslim women wear that show only their eyes can certainly be a security issue as there is no way to tell who is under that clothing....could be a devout, honest muslim woman, or a extremist bomb toting nutter muslim man or woman. The full face covering has no place in the west.

There are times when the face should be shown, but in all fairness, although somebody can see my face it is still possible for me to carry a variety of weapons or explosives without them having the slightest idea, as they wouldnt be carried upon the face.
I suppose at the minimum eyes and the mouth should be visible in order for clear communication to take place, smiling, frowning, talking etc. but only in a public place (somewhere you cant legally smoke - bar bus stops etc which are outside)

I am an atheist so I have plenty of differences of opinion with Bazooka. But my experience of this forum and others leads me to be suspicious of the motives of anyone attacking Islam.

Bazooka on the one hand I know to be interested in creating an understanding. Where I have made a refutation on his behalf based on a misunderstanding he corrected me even though it weakened his defence on the the allegation made against his religion. Bazooka I therefore have time for as someone who is interested in the truth. There are others on this thread (and the numerous others) who have been nothing but abusive towards Islam and so far as I can see are not interested in gaining an understanding, just in scoring cheap points and trying to provoke others into making them look better.

I have never known an atheist defend a religion as ferociously as you and I take it you are a woman as well?

Have you seen the way your friend Bazooka has described women in the west here? I find it all very disgusting that a man can have those sorts of views in a modern democratic society. Surely being an atheist, you should be abhorred by the way religion has obviously twisted this mans mind and not be so apologetic for his knuckle dragging views? What is there to understand exactly?

I find him arrogant and dismissive of others opinions, even to the point that he labels people when he can't get his own way and he has repeatedly refused to answer questions that matter about his references to others on this forum. It seems to me that he thinks he is a law unto himself and he does his religion no justice what so ever, as if that is how I am to judge all Muslim men then I think I will take a wide berth every time.

Well the extreme total cover-up, that some islamic ladies wear, will certainly protect them from male lust and the harmfull affects of the sun, but unfortunately the healthy aspects of the sun, will go amiss.
Vitamin D suppliments at the ready (http://www.blackburncitizen.co.uk/search/display.var.1791843.0.56_cases_of_rickets_uncovere d.php)

This is an utterly ridiculous comparison. A bride's veil is sheer and can be seen through and, as others have pointed out, is only worn for a short period of time. The full covering some muslim women wear that show only their eyes can certainly be a security issue as there is no way to tell who is under that clothing....could be a devout, honest muslim woman, or a extremist bomb toting nutter muslim man or woman. The full face covering has no place in the west.

Yes, I wish I hadn't mentioned it now :hihi:

It does however demonstrate that veils are no so alien to us as they are often portrayed.