Another thing thats got my goat this week.

Take for example the recent needless racially motivated killing of the guy from liverpool this week.

I watched the news yesterday with a guy doing a walkaround the 'shrine area' that has been laid in the guys memory.

Nothing wrong with that... the thing that pishes me right off in this country is this.

Most people who I saw on that report wanted to be there, not in rememberance of the guy who died and not to support his family, they wanted to be there to be seen on the television.

Its fooking sick and the people who do this are ghouls.

Its the same as the 'diana syndrome' - people wanting to be there because diana touched them in some way.

********.. its because the press are there, and you feel the need to be special in some way, or you need to be center of attention... its wrong.

If you watched the news yesterday, remember the bit with the guys mam, the crowd was nowhere near her and couldnt give a toss until she started crying.. then its 'lets all crowd round to get in on the camera'..

Sickening for me!
:(

I agree, it is always sad when someone like the Pope or Diana dies and even sader when someone is killed tragically, but how can you make a public show of grieving for someone you never met.

It is the same when something happens and "communities come together" it is usually the same bunch of people that the week before crossed the road to avoid their neighbours.

I think a lot of it is people feel guilty if they don't feel anything for a complete stranger and don't want to appear heartless.

I agree with you one this one, I think boris Johnson's comments about Liverpool (contributing factor in his resignation) can be applied to the whole nation. The vast majority of our society couldn't give a tup'penny damn about individuals 99.9% of the time but as soon as there's a chance at having a mass outpouring of public "grief" watch the floodgates open.

The mentality of turning up at a high profile event to publicly display your grief for the cameras is one that I find disturbing.

I'm going to disagree.

I saw the remembrance vigil for Anthony Walker on the news this morning and I thought it was a nice gesture from those who went along.

You don't need to know someone personally to feel disgust at a race-hate crime like this, and huge sympathy for the family involved. I thought the number of people who were there, from all races and religions, sent a very clear message that racism should not be tolerated.

I also thought that the family seemed quite touched at the level of support they'd received - apparently his mother wasn't going to make a speech, but felt compelled to say something to the people who had turned up. It may have also made it more ponigiant for the family because it was such a big display of solidarity with them.

If I'd lived in the ara I would have gone along too. It's not about trying to get 15 mins of fame (I would have avoided all TV cameras), I think it's about standing up and being counted, and showing you care about the society you live in and the people that make up that society.

That's what I think, anyway...

Yes i think most of these people don't care, they just make it a "mission" to go to these gatherings, same as political gatherings, they get bussed in, have no idea what their there for, only to get paid when they get back on the bus.

So people go to be nosey? Human nature I suppose

At least it does give genuine people grieving somewhere to focus on which does help.

And importantly the media coverage of 'fake grieving' does keep it in the public eye which is necessary to help catch those responsible. It is reminding people and using the guilt factor for them to come forward with more information. That's got to be good.

My other point is this.

Say for example, I was black ok, I was killed by an axe in the back of my head in Hackenthorpe and it wasnt reported in the main media.

None of you, sorry to say, would give a toss about me.

It might be reported on here.. that I was some bloke who got murdered locally, and people would say how sick are the killers and they feel sorry for my family, but as for a lot of major outporing in the community, it would not happen at all.

The same goes for when Ken Bigley got murdered, big media circus, hence lot of fake sympathy.

Hence false sympathy because its big news.
Its sick.

I think its good that so many of the local community pay to show their respects and support the family.

If it happened up here in Walkley I'd definitely go in order to pay my respects and mainly to show my support against the racist plantum that do this kind of thing. By a lot of people turning up it shows to kids who may try the same thing that the whole community will be against them if they do.

The kids would not be bothered mate, they would go just because mam and dad are dragging them along to it, or unless their mates want to go.

Same as on the news report last night in liverpool, kids there trying to get on camera, not to remember their dead 'mate'.

Originally posted by ANGELUS

The same goes for when Ken Bigley got murdered, big media circus, hence lot of fake sympathy.

Hence false sympathy because its big news.
Its sick.

I personally felt a lot of sympathy for Ken Bigley and his family. What an absolutely horrific way to die. I can understand people wanting to pay their respects.

However, I agree with you about Diana, if only for the sheer scale and utter "heartbreak" of it all.

I agree I felt sorry for the family of Ken Bigley.. nothing should ever happen like that to anyone.

Diana- I really couldnt give a rats ass for, even though she was murdered- but thats a different kettle of fish.

Originally posted by ANGELUS
My other point is this.

Say for example, I was black ok, I was killed by an axe in the back of my head in Hackenthorpe and it wasnt reported in the main media.

None of you, sorry to say, would give a toss about me.

It might be reported on here.. that I was some bloke who got murdered locally, and people would say how sick are the killers and they feel sorry for my family, but as for a lot of major outporing in the community, it would not happen at all.

The same goes for when Ken Bigley got murdered, big media circus, hence lot of fake sympathy.

Hence false sympathy because its big news.
Its sick.

This doesn't seem to be a very inspired arguement Angelus.

If these things weren't reported in the media then most of us wouldn't know about them, and if memorial services weren't publicised in the media people wouldn't know where to go.

If you were black and got stabbed with an axe in Hackenthorpe, then how would we all know about it unless it was on the news? And as for your memorial service - if a date and time were not publicised then how would we know were to go?

How could we possibly be expect to give a toss about you if we hadn't heard what had happened?

If your "death" was put on the forum, and forumers arranged a vigil, then I'm sure quite a few would turn up and lend their support, even if they didn't know you.

And if there wasn't a 'media circus' surrounding the death of Ken Bigley, then most of us would still be blissfully unaware of his death.

Perhaps some people like to bury their head in the sand, but if there wasn't a public outcry after killings like this then they would be even more frequent and harder to avenge.

Originally posted by ANGELUS
My other point is this.

Say for example, I was black ok, I was killed by an axe in the back of my head in Hackenthorpe and it wasnt reported in the main media.

None of you, sorry to say, would give a toss about me.

It might be reported on here.. that I was some bloke who got murdered locally, and people would say how sick are the killers and they feel sorry for my family, but as for a lot of major outporing in the community, it would not happen at all.

The same goes for when Ken Bigley got murdered, big media circus, hence lot of fake sympathy.

Hence false sympathy because its big news.
Its sick.

I have no sympathy for Ken Bigley's family. he went into a dodgy area to make a cheap buck. He should have thought about the dangers before he went and left his family to make easy money.

I can make a killing working over there. the reason why I and many more haven't gone is the danger

Originally posted by ANGELUS
The kids would not be bothered mate, they would go just because mam and dad are dragging them along to it, or unless their mates want to go.

Same as on the news report last night in liverpool, kids there trying to get on camera, not to remember their dead 'mate'.

the kids wont care until they realise that the whole of the communit is against what they did and will shop them to the police . Not even the stupidest kids going to commit murder when he knows he'll get sent down for it..

Originally posted by JBee
This doesn't seem to be a very inspired arguement Angelus.

If these things weren't reported in the media then most of us wouldn't know about them, and if memorial services weren't publicised in the media people wouldn't know where to go.

If you were black and got stabbed with an axe in Hackenthorpe, then how would we all know about it unless it was on the news? And as for your memorial service - if a date and time were not publicised then how would we know were to go?

How could we possibly be expect to give a toss about you if we hadn't heard what had happened?

If your "death" was put on the forum, and forumers arranged a vigil, then I'm sure quite a few would turn up and lend their support, even if they didn't know you.

And if there wasn't a 'media circus' surrounding the death of Ken Bigley, then most of us would still be blissfully unaware of his death.

Perhaps some people like to bury their head in the sand, but if there wasn't a public outcry after killings like this then they would be even more frequent and harder to avenge.

Ah! But the point is.. I'm a nobody, I would be a statistic in a book somewhere, nobody would care if I lived or died would they.

They may print a bit about me in the papers, maybe the Sheffield Star, which would be in peoples bins the next day.

I'd be forgotten probably within an hour.

You wouldnt want to come to my funeral, place I was stabbed, my home, my memorial- nothing.

So why should people go to another strangers, hence the guy in liverpool? The main thing- major media coverage.

Thats the only reason people would 'care'
Ken Bigley- dead, only remembered because of the media.

If you asked someone on the street right now outside your house, ask them the lads name from liverpool and ask them if they care he is dead.

You will find your answer right there.. and that sorry to say is what most people are like in the UK.

We just dont care.

Originally posted by robbie
the kids wont care until they realise that the whole of the communit is against what they did and will shop them to the police . Not even the stupidest kids going to commit murder when he knows he'll get sent down for it..

I agree with you robbie about how foolish Ken was to go over there at that time.. I dont excuse the killers though.

Kids nowadays are idiots, they will believe anything you tell them and will follow like sheep anything major or anything their friends tell them.

Sad but true.

I think there is an element of "fake sympathy" wherever the media covers a tragedy. However this is usually a minority of people and there are genuine people grieving and leaving flowers to show their regret for a loss of life, whether they knew the person(s) affected or not. Unless its live coverage and idiots are jumping about in the background, they are usually smart enough to cut those who at least appear to be obviously fake.

Things like vigils and shrines of flowers, whether put there by "real" or "fake" sympathisers, show solidarity against the people who are evil enough to carry out this kind of attack. And its sad to say, but tragedy really does pull people and communities together.

Originally posted by JBee
This doesn't seem to be a very inspired arguement Angelus.

If these things weren't reported in the media then most of us wouldn't know about them, and if memorial services weren't publicised in the media people wouldn't know where to go.

If you were black and got stabbed with an axe in Hackenthorpe, then how would we all know about it unless it was on the news? And as for your memorial service - if a date and time were not publicised then how would we know were to go?

How could we possibly be expect to give a toss about you if we hadn't heard what had happened?

If your "death" was put on the forum, and forumers arranged a vigil, then I'm sure quite a few would turn up and lend their support, even if they didn't know you.

And if there wasn't a 'media circus' surrounding the death of Ken Bigley, then most of us would still be blissfully unaware of his death.

Perhaps some people like to bury their head in the sand, but if there wasn't a public outcry after killings like this then they would be even more frequent and harder to avenge.

I agree completely with you JBee.

ANGELUS has a point about young kids jumping front of cameras etc, but let's be honest, they don't know any better.

With regards to the remaing element of any crowd in this situation, 'fake' is big word to bandy about.

N

Originally posted by robbie
I have no sympathy for Ken Bigley's family. he went into a dodgy area to make a cheap buck. He should have thought about the dangers before he went and left his family to make easy money.

I can make a killing working over there. the reason why I and many more haven't gone is the danger

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from. He obviously deserved to die a horrific death for his crimes.

Originally posted by sheff_minx
And its sad to say, but tragedy really does pull people and communities together.

I'll give you another example about how wrong this statement is. Not having a go at you or anything as well ok :)

My old school colleague Ian Collins who you may or may not have heard of in the press was a soldier who was killed while in a tour of duty by some thugs who threw a block of concrete on top of a jeep he was driving and killed him.

His body was brought back to my home town of Kiveton Park in Sheffield, where he was laid to rest with military honours.

He served our country with pride and yet, if you ask anyone who he is now round our village they probably wont know who the hell he is.. but yet they know James Toesland because he is a world superbike champion.. what does that say about the public nowadays??

They were all 'grief struck' when Ian died - after a week.. nothing.

Fake sympathy.. ghouls.

It does pull the crowds in though- just to be on camera thats all.. I find it sickening.

Originally posted by ANGELUS
I'll give you another example about how wrong this statement is. Not having a go at you or anything as well ok :)

My old school colleague Ian Collins who you may or may not have heard of in the press was a soldier who was killed while in a tour of duty by some thugs who threw a block of concrete on top of a jeep he was driving and killed him.

His body was brought back to my home town of Kiveton Park in Sheffield, where he was laid to rest with military honours.

He served our country with pride and yet, if you ask anyone who he is now round our village they probably wont know who the hell he is.. but yet they know James Toesland because he is a world superbike champion.. what does that say about the public nowadays??

They were all 'grief struck' when Ian died - after a week.. nothing.

Fake sympathy.. ghouls.

It does pull the crowds in though- just to be on camera thats all.. I find it sickening.

But when my baby brother died aged 5 days, nothing was reported in the press, not even local news, but our whole village rallied round us, looking after us kids to give mum and dad a break, and generally helping out. Even now, so many years on, people still send cards on his birthday and anniversary of his death. Through the tragedy we met many people from the village who we barely knew before, and who are now great friends.

And not a TV camera or fake sympathiser in sight.

Originally posted by BoroughGal
Yeah, I can see where you're coming from. He obviously deserved to die a horrific death for his crimes.

not at all. He did obviously not put his familiy first and would rather risk his life to earn some easy money than work harder.

Originally posted by sheff_minx
But when my baby brother died aged 5 days, nothing was reported in the press, not even local news, but our whole village rallied round us, looking after us kids to give mum and dad a break, and generally helping out. Even now, so many years on, people still send cards on his birthday and anniversary of his death. Through the tragedy we met many people from the village who we barely knew before, and who are now great friends.

And not a TV camera or fake sympathiser in sight.

Then thats a rarity for me.. where are you from as well please?
It does sound a better place to live than my home town.

Originally posted by ANGELUS
Ah! But the point is.. I'm a nobody, I would be a statistic in a book somewhere, nobody would care if I lived or died would they.

They may print a bit about me in the papers, maybe the Sheffield Star, which would be in peoples bins the next day.

I'd be forgotten probably within an hour.

You wouldnt want to come to my funeral, place I was stabbed, my home, my memorial- nothing.

So why should people go to another strangers, hence the guy in liverpool? The main thing- major media coverage.

Thats the only reason people would 'care'
Ken Bigley- dead, only remembered because of the media.

If you asked someone on the street right now outside your house, ask them the lads name from liverpool and ask them if they care he is dead.

You will find your answer right there.. and that sorry to say is what most people are like in the UK.

We just dont care.

Er... Think you're getting a little confused now Angelus. It must be confusion, because I'm sure you can't be agreeing with me on purpose!

The point you seem to be making is that if you were killed tomorrow and it wasn't reported in the paper, then you would be a "nobody", and people wouldn't 'care' because they wouldn't know about you.

It's a valid arguement, and (unsurprisingly) echos the one I put forward in my previous post :loopy:

The 'lads name from Liverpool' was Anthony Walker, and he too was a 'nobody' until his was stabbed in the head by an axe by someone of another race.

We seem to be going a bit off course now, but I'm glad we're both finally in agreement that the media is vital in situations like this to let people know what is going on. :D

My point is that it would be humanly impossible for a person to physically and emotionally 'care' about every onther person on the planet, or even every other person in Sheffield. There are too many of us - it would be ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

But when we read stories like this in the papers, then I would argue that most genuine and sincere human beings would feel remorse for the victims involved - especially when the crime is so senseless. And then I think it's perfectly acceptable and appropriate to express feelings of anger and sympathy on behalf of the victim.

To conclude. If you became victim of some terrible hate crime, and it was reported in the media, then I think the majority of us would 'care' and express sympathy.

But if you just pop your clogs weeding your garden or taking a bath, then understandably, the public show of grief may be less overwhelming!

Originally posted by robbie
not at all. He did obviously not put his familiy first and would rather risk his life to earn some easy money than work harder.

Yeah, and my point is that I had sympathy for the horrific way he died. And maybe - just maybe - he WAS putting his family first earning good money for them in an enviornment he'd rather not have been in.

At the time we lived in a village called Hayfield in Derbyshire.

I understand what you are saying, but it is wrong to generalise. Some people do only "grieve" for the cameras, but many others do not, and many more grieve from their armchairs. And no person is ever forgotten, they are just not as remembered as they may have been for a week or so.

If one life is worth as much as another , with the number of murders and killings in Britain today , the T.V. would be filled non-stop almost with these gatherings , if we all attended these types of funerals .
I always thought mourning to be a private sort of affair. How do we know that the mother in the Liverpool case really wanted to make a speech ? Maybe she felt obliged to do so , due to the , "circus " around her.
Yes , the prime example , and perhaps the turning point was the Princess Di episode.I read where one man said , " I feel so sad . My unborn daughter will now no longer live in the same world as Princess Di " [!] Pass the sick bucket .
Sad as it was that ANYONE had to die so young , all the bleeding hearts and hand-wringers seemed to completely overlook the fact that Mother Theresa died on the same day as Princess Diana . Oops , I forgot , Mother Theresa didn't live a life of luxury , have loads of well-publicised , "society " boyfriends or appear on T.V. to enthrall us all with her personal problems so no chance of attracting the attention of the , "Great " British Public , Mother Theresa . Sorry !

Princess Diana and Mother Theresa died in the same week, not on the same date.

However, I agree that it was unfair that the death of someone that did so much HARDWORKING good, was overshadowed by the death of someone that was primarily popular because of her celebrity status.

It seems to me when an event spawns mass mourning that sometimes it is the people not involved that come across as "oh I am so upset please feel sorry for me" and take the focus away from the people who are genuinely grieving

Originally posted by Fareast
If one life is worth as much as another , with the number of murders and killings in Britain today , the T.V. would be filled non-stop almost with these gatherings , if we all attended these types of funerals .
I always thought mourning to be a private sort of affair. How do we know that the mother in the Liverpool case really wanted to make a speech ? Maybe she felt obliged to do so , due to the , "circus " around her.
Yes , the prime example , and perhaps the turning point was the Princess Di episode.I read where one man said , " I feel so sad . My unborn daughter will now no longer live in the same world as Princess Di " [!] Pass the sick bucket .
Sad as it was that ANYONE had to die so young , all the bleeding hearts and hand-wringers seemed to completely overlook the fact that Mother Theresa died on the same day as Princess Diana . Oops , I forgot , Mother Theresa didn't live a life of luxury , have loads of well-publicised , "society " boyfriends or appear on T.V. to enthrall us all with her personal problems so no chance of attracting the attention of the , "Great " British Public , Mother Theresa . Sorry !

I could not have said it better myself!!
Yay!!

Mother T.. now there's someone I felt respect for.
For all that one woman did for the world, more people remember Princess Di & The Pope than her. How sad is that?

Jbee

Back on topic then for our debate, people mainly will forget Anthony Walker probably this week after all the press coverage goes away, he would not even be remembered at all had the press not swooped on it.

Nobody really cares that much about anyone else, thats the point I was trying to make in all of this.

We can say, oh I feel so bad for Princess Di and stuff, we forget her within 5 mins of going about our normal lives.

Do we not?

Its the same with fake sympathisers- they are there for that one moment of self glory and then they are off again.

They dont care really, thats the point I'm making.

Sorry for the guy who died, but to me honestly, he's a black guy from Liverpool who died after a racial killing, I didnt even remember his name until you told me Jbee.. see what I mean.

As human beings we can't possibly follow the lives and dealths of every single other person. So why do a small few capture the imagination?

If you read in the paper that a man had died after being attacked with an axe, how could you be expected to feel a lot of sympathy?

The victim is 'a man'. We don't know anything about him. We might be concerned as to what area/town the attacked happened, but that's about it.

But with some cases we are given more information, and then our emotions start to kick in.

We now know from newspaper reports that Anthony was nearly 18-years-old. He had a white girlfriend and a large loving family. He was sitting his A Levels and hoped to become a laywer. He liked rap music and performed in his school play. And he was killed becuase of the colour of his skin. He has ceased to become 'a man', and is now a brother, a son, a friend and a boyfriend. He probably reminds us of someone we know. And he's a victim.

And now we are able to understand the tragidy behind the loss of his life. We can empathise with his family, and we start to feel sympathy.

But what's wrong with that? What is wrong with feeling sympathy for a young lad who clearly didn't deserve to die? And regret for his family and friends?

How can having those emotions triggered and then finding an outlet to express them possibly be "sick" or "goulish"???

Sorry to say Jbee, you will have forgot the guy in a week or two.. am I right?

Unless you really do care about someone you dont really know that much- thats up to you I suppose??

The 'sicko's and ghouls' are the ones who want to be on camera, when a 'tragedy' like this happens, its not for respect of the dead, not for respect of the family.. its pure unadulterated me, me, me and its sickening.

Or if you like, its 2 seconds the guy thats died, the rest of the time is spent trying to be caught on camera 'weeping' or 'showing respect' for the dead.

Posted by JBee

"But with some cases we are given more information, and then our emotions start to kick in.

We now know from newspaper reports that Anthony was nearly 18-years-old. He had a white girlfriend and a large loving family. He was sitting his A Levels and hoped to become a laywer. He liked rap music and performed in his school play. And he was killed becuase of the colour of his skin. He has ceased to become 'a man', and is now a brother, a son, a friend and a boyfriend. He probably reminds us of someone we know. And he's a victim.

And now we are able to understand the tragidy behind the loss of his life. We can empathise with his family, and we start to feel sympathy."

I am playing devils advocate now.

Would there be such grief if he were a drug dealing wife beater, that had fathered 6 kids by 6 different women. People would say he probably deserved it, but he would stillbe someones brother/son/father.

Borough Gal ,

Thank you for your correction.
I think another aspect of the Princess Di affair was this. Anyone with any knowledge of Public Schools knows that they are not hermetically sealed off from the world.
Now the princes Harry and William were both at public school during the period that the , 'caring " Princess was being photographed with all sorts of different male escorts. Anyone with half a brain or half an ounce of consideration would have realised that news like that would filter through to their school. Could it have caused embarrassment ? Could they have been pleased that their mother was probably , 'shacking ' up with various , "celebrities " ? Who knows ? But was it worth taking the risk ?
Princess Di may have said a few kind words to Aids victims and spoken out against land mines but I can't think what other , "good " she did. The whole charade was an illustration of how far the public have travelled down the road of snivelling sentimentallity and , " touchy-feely " street.

Originally posted by valentine
Would there be such grief if he were a drug dealing wife beater, that had fathered 6 kids by 6 different women. People would say he probably deserved it, but he would still be someones brother/son/father.

Yep! Exactly.

This may be an urban myth but a while ago I read that someone who was sceptical about the practice of leaving bunches of flowers or cuddly toys at the spot where someone died decided to conduct an experiment. They got a bunch of flowers and left it somewhere in public. A while later they went back to the spot and found that more people had put flowers there even though there was nothing else there to say that anyone had died there recently (which was because no-one had died there recently).

Its probably true, I can see it happening to be honest.

[i]
Most people who I saw on that report wanted to be there, not in rememberance of the guy who died and not to support his family, they wanted to be there to be seen on the television.
:( [/B]

This thread is starting to get very abstract now. But I have included the origional statement that started it above.

What I'm saying is that when I heard about Anthony Walker I felt angry and upset. It didn't matter to me that I didn't know him personally. I felt anger towards the killers because racism is so pointless, and I felt upset because I saw the coverage of his crying sisters and parents, and empathised with what they mush be going through.

What is fake about that?

If I had lived near the vigil I would have gone along, because I would have wanted to be a part of the display of solidarity with the family, and send a message to the killers that their act was unacceptable.

Again... I still fail to see what is wrong with this.

And finally, yes, I probably will have forgotton about poor Anthony long before anyone who knew him is able to. But that's because I'm a human being. Just because emotions pass and change, doesn't make them 'fake'.

If you fall in love, and then two years later the relationship goes sour, does that mean the love was 'fake'?

If you have a huge arguement with a friend and feel extreme anger, but then make up a few weeks later, was that anger 'fake'????

I don't think so. And I don't think you can judge the motives of the individuals involved in mass grief in such an off-hand way.

Originally posted by ANGELUS
Another thing thats got my goat this week.

Take for example the recent needless racially motivated killing of the guy from liverpool this week.

I watched the news yesterday with a guy doing a walkaround the 'shrine area' that has been laid in the guys memory.

Nothing wrong with that... the thing that pishes me right off in this country is this.

Most people who I saw on that report wanted to be there, not in rememberance of the guy who died and not to support his family, they wanted to be there to be seen on the television.

Its fooking sick and the people who do this are ghouls.

Its the same as the 'diana syndrome' - people wanting to be there because diana touched them in some way.

********.. its because the press are there, and you feel the need to be special in some way, or you need to be center of attention... its wrong.

If you watched the news yesterday, remember the bit with the guys mam, the crowd was nowhere near her and couldnt give a toss until she started crying.. then its 'lets all crowd round to get in on the camera'..

Sickening for me!
:( If people wanted to pay tribute to a person who has died they could have done so when the T.V cameras were not there!

I feel sorry for people who need the T.V cameras on them to make themselves feel important and the only way to get their selves noticed is to use a tragic death. Shame on them:|

Yeah ,

I would hazard a guess that , some of them are so thick , that if you put a bunch of flowers by a roadside , with the words ,

" On this sacred spot in 1945 , British war hero , Adolf Hitler put a bullet through his head , caused by acute depression " , they would queue up in their thousands [ looking out for the cameras , of course ]
I can see them now , saying to the camera ,

" I hope this man knows we are here for him "

Originally posted by tulip
If people wanted to pay tribute to a person who has died they could have done so when the T.V cameras were not there!

I feel sorry for people who need the T.V cameras on them to make themselves feel important and the only way to get their selves noticed is to use a tragic death. Shame on them:|

Or they could've just been caught on the cameras whilst placing flowers for honest reasons. Not everybody who appears on the TV coverage is there because of the cameras.

And maybe we will mainly have forgotten about Anthony in a few weeks, maybe not, but the reason so many people laid flowers is because they felt strongly at the time.

Why do some people seem determined to view the actions of others in such a negative light?

I'm amazed that after seeing the footage of this vigil on TV, so many forumers immediately looked at the even with so much cinicism.

What's wrong with you all? Whatever happened to simple human compassion?

It's no wonder we live in a world where such atrocities happen :nono:

Originally posted by tulip
If people wanted to pay tribute to a person who has died they could have done so when the T.V cameras were not there!

I feel sorry for people who need the T.V cameras on them to make themselves feel important and the only way to get their selves noticed is to use a tragic death. Shame on them:|

Bingo! Thankyou for that.

JBee

Please believe me in when I say that if you want to grieve for some unknown guy you didnt know, then thats what you do.. if you want some round of applause for it then I'm sorry you wont be getting any.

Yes I can judge what people are like by watching a TV set.. I can tell when people maybe showing true respect to the dead and when they just want some attention on themselves.

IE: Like the people who clapped the dead lads mums speech yesterday, its not a fookin pantomime they are at - sorry - its letting the family remember their son.. they did not need to be there at the same time. As tulip said above which I agree with, why not leave your flowers and tributes on the ground and then go, thats showing respects, not hanging round because the TV are there.

Originally posted by JBee
It's no wonder we live in a world where such atrocities happen :nono:

I'll give you another example as well, not a popular one but I need it to be said as well.

The London Bombings.

People scurrying up to 'tell their tales' about the atrocities and they you get the other flip side of 'fake sympathy' - you now get 'phoney bravery' as well.

Trying to be clever and act hard.. a lot of people I saw being interviewed were looking straight at camera telling the 'terrorists' that they are not scared.

Another big load of BS if you ask me!

Or in other words- we are not scared until the terrorists detonate another bomb in london next week and we **** ourselves in terror- not so 'not scared' then are we.

All terrorists have got to do now is to detonate a dirty-bomb in london and see how 'not scared' we all are then.

Blitz spirit- my arse... the media again.
Brainwashing people in this country.

JBee

Don't you think it's rather odd that so many people turn up at the same time as the cameras are there ? Why do you get so many people attending a , "media " funeral ? As we said before , is it because one life is worth more than another ?
Why can't people mourn quietly ? How do we know the victim's miother and close family wanted all that crowd there ?
How is it that the vast majority of people manage to mourn friends and family without any accompaniment ?
The vast majority of these , "mourners " never knew the victim , or met him or will know his name , after a short time . Do the same people go to funerals of people who have been killed in tragic road accidents ?
If not , why not ?

Originally posted by sheff_minx
Or they could've just been caught on the cameras whilst placing flowers for honest reasons. Not everybody who appears on the TV coverage is there because of the cameras.

And maybe we will mainly have forgotten about Anthony in a few weeks, maybe not, but the reason so many people laid flowers is because they felt strongly at the time. Yes, some of the people caught on camera could have been showing outrage at a senseless loss of life, genuine respect and unity or neighbours & relatives. If you feel grief for the death of someone you don't know, I think that is natural because you can empathise and put yourself in the position of the grieving family members. People who wanted to be in front of the cameras for their own benefit are the ones who I am against. They make the rest of us feel cynical.

When I die I won't get the pubilicy but I wouldn't want it either! As JBee mentioned earlier, it is the genuine people who live around you and would offer support for selfless reasons that count not the fakes.

Most people are surprised by the support they get from people around them when a tragedy happens.:)

Originally posted by tulip
Yes, some of the people caught on camera could have been showing outrage at a senseless loss of life, genuine respect and unity or neighbours & relatives. If you feel grief for the death of someone you don't know, I think that is natural because you can empathise and put yourself in the position of the grieving family members. People who wanted to be in front of the cameras for their own benefit are the ones who I am against. They make the rest of us feel cynical.

When I die I won't get the pubilicy but I wouldn't want it either! As JBee mentioned earlier, it is the genuine people who live around you and would offer support for selfless reasons that count not the fakes.

Most people are surprised by the support they get from people around them when a tragedy happens.:)

I totally agree - my post earlier in the thread about my brother shows how good people can be in times of tragedy. But there's always the bad eggs...

Originally posted by ANGELUS
Please believe me in when I say that if you want to grieve for some unknown guy you didnt know, then thats what you do.. if you want some round of applause for it then I'm sorry you wont be getting any.


I'm not going to start slating your character on a public Forum. But I've made my own judgements after reading your posts, and trust me... I'm definitely not seeking your approval.

I still think it's very sad though that so many people are so determined to pour scorn on a public act of mourning.

If there had been no vigil, then no doubt there'd be a thread on this forum full of people complaining that nobody seems to care about Anthony Walker's stabbing.

:loopy:

Enough. I can't be bothered to argue with you people any more. I've put my point across and i stand by it. But I suspect it's falling on deaf/cynical ears.

Originally posted by Fareast
JBee

Don't you think it's rather odd that so many people turn up at the same time as the cameras are there ? Why do you get so many people attending a , "media " funeral ?


One more quick point, and then I'm definitely finished! In responce to this very illogical post...

The people were there because the vigil had been advertised in the media. It gives them somewhere to go and show solidarity with the family and contempt for the killers.

If it hadn't been advertised, nobody would have known about it.

The cameras where there because it had been advertised in the media, so they knew the people would be there.

How can that possibly be 'rather odd'??? :suspect: Seems quite self explanitory to me!

Originally posted by JBee
I'm not going to start slating your character on a public Forum. But I've made my own judgements after reading your posts, and trust me... I'm definitely not seeking your approval.

I still think it's very sad though that so many people are so determined to pour scorn on a public act of mourning.

If there had been no vigil, then no doubt there'd be a thread on this forum full of people complaining that nobody seems to care about Anthony Walker's stabbing.

:loopy:

Enough. I can't be bothered to argue with you people any more. I've put my point across and i stand by it. But I suspect it's falling on deaf/cynical ears. No it isn't JBee. I think if everyone felt the way you do then the world would be a much better place:thumbsup: I'm sure a lot of people felt sadness and outrage. If people only want their faces on TV then they should apply to be on Trisha or something, at least then we would know they were fakes!

Originally posted by JBee
I'm not going to start slating your character on a public Forum. But I've made my own judgements after reading your posts, and trust me... I'm definitely not seeking your approval.

I still think it's very sad though that so many people are so determined to pour scorn on a public act of mourning.

If there had been no vigil, then no doubt there'd be a thread on this forum full of people complaining that nobody seems to care about Anthony Walker's stabbing.

:loopy:

Enough. I can't be bothered to argue with you people any more. I've put my point across and i stand by it. But I suspect it's falling on deaf/cynical ears.

Hey come on!
Please dont go away mad after discussing this on here today.

You have your views and I have mine, I would not want to upset and anger anyone on here, just because I have a different viewpoint to you.

Im glad you came on today and discussed it with us so thankyou very much for that.

I dont want to upset anyone ok, we all have our views and this is the fun of the forum, where we can get everything off our chests.

Love & Peace
XX

Originally posted by tulip
Yes, some of the people caught on camera could have been showing outrage at a senseless loss of life, genuine respect and unity or neighbours & relatives. If you feel grief for the death of someone you don't know, I think that is natural because you can empathise and put yourself in the position of the grieving family members. People who wanted to be in front of the cameras for their own benefit are the ones who I am against. They make the rest of us feel cynical.

When I die I won't get the pubilicy but I wouldn't want it either! As (EDIT SORRY IT WAS SHEFF_MINX) JBee mentioned earlier, it is the genuine people who live around you and would offer support for selfless reasons that count not the fakes.

Most people are surprised by the support they get from people around them when a tragedy happens.:)

Originally posted by ANGELUS
Hey come on!
Please dont go away mad after discussing this on here today.

You have your views and I have mine, I would not want to upset and anger anyone on here, just because I have a different viewpoint to you.

Im glad you came on today and discussed it with us so thankyou very much for that.

I dont want to upset anyone ok, we all have our views and this is the fun of the forum, where we can get everything off our chests.

Love & Peace
XX I can sympathize with you! It is impossible to have an opinion and not upset and anger people though, it would be totally different if you were sat in a pub discussing this with someone. You'd listen to each others opinions disagree a bit and then talk about something else with no hurt feelings on either side:)

I'm not hurt! And I've enjoyed this debate too. But I seem to be largely fighting a loosing battle, so now I'm going to retire gracefully, and let my previous posts speak for themselves!

:wave:

Well thankyou very much Jbee..
-Angelus bows courteously to JBee-

In fact everyone have one-
-Angelus bows thankfully to everyone-

XX

Originally posted by ANGELUS
Well thankyou very much Jbee..
-Angelus bows courteously to JBee-

In fact everyone have one-
-Angelus bows thankfully to everyone-

XX

No.... Thank YOU Angelus
-JBee courteously aims an axe at....-

Naa... only joshing. Am leaving my computer now for the day. Bye bye everybody who contributed to this thread :wave: :wave: :wave:

See you soon - cheerio!
X

often wondered how much diana,s funeral actually made for the people who were selling things to the crowds,such as flowers,cups,hot dogs,ice cream,tea,coffee etc some made a huge profit through her demise,did it go to her fund i wonder?

the rooms that were rented,parking lots,pub sales,it must have made millions of pounds ,some taxable

a nice little earner all round, i watched it on tv,said my own good bye in peace and quiet

Originally posted by depoix
often wondered how much diana,s funeral actually made for the people who were selling things to the crowds,such as flowers

Are you trying to get yourself killed? If you know what's good for you don't talk about the gl*b*l fl*r*st c*nsp*r*cy in public. :wink:

Originally posted by ANGELUS
Another thing thats got my goat this week.

Take for example the recent needless racially motivated killing of the guy from liverpool this week.

I watched the news yesterday with a guy doing a walkaround the 'shrine area' that has been laid in the guys memory.

Nothing wrong with that... the thing that pishes me right off in this country is this.

Most people who I saw on that report wanted to be there, not in rememberance of the guy who died and not to support his family, they wanted to be there to be seen on the television.

Its fooking sick and the people who do this are ghouls.

Its the same as the 'diana syndrome' - people wanting to be there because diana touched them in some way.

********.. its because the press are there, and you feel the need to be special in some way, or you need to be center of attention... its wrong.

If you watched the news yesterday, remember the bit with the guys mam, the crowd was nowhere near her and couldnt give a toss until she started crying.. then its 'lets all crowd round to get in on the camera'..

Sickening for me!
:(

careful angelous i said the exact same thing when richard whitely died and got called sick and disgusting..... :)

Originally posted by Fingers
Are you trying to get yourself killed? If you know what's good for you don't talk about the gl*b*l fl*r*st c*nsp*r*cy in public. :wink: oops,sorry petal

It's not the fault of the people when they go all out and make big public displays of grief when a famous person dies. While these celebrities are alive we constantly see their faces, hear their voices and we read about every little detail of their lives in the media. They become more well-known to us than our neighbours and colleagues, so is it any wonder when people get genuinely upset when they die?

As regards 'ordinary people' who die in tragic circumstances it is often that the death strikes a chord with people. Maybe it is that the deceased reminds them of someone they know or it could be that seeing their face on TV and in the paper for days eventually has an emotional effect - that's certainly the case when a child is killed.

I think it's nice when people want to stand up and be counted to show their feelings about such an attack, especially the similarities to Stephen Lawrence.

I live about twenty minutes away and am seriously considering going to the candlelight walk on Friday evening, not because I want to be on telly (my avatar isn't Moe for no reason), just because I want to be counted as someone who cares about such a needless waste of life.

Can or will it help change things? I don't know. I certainly didn't care much or had an impulse to line the streets when Diana died.

Originally posted by ANGELUS
Another thing thats got my goat this week.

Take for example the recent needless racially motivated killing of the guy from liverpool this week.

I watched the news yesterday with a guy doing a walkaround the 'shrine area' that has been laid in the guys memory.

Nothing wrong with that... the thing that pishes me right off in this country is this.

Most people who I saw on that report wanted to be there, not in rememberance of the guy who died and not to support his family, they wanted to be there to be seen on the television.

Its fooking sick and the people who do this are ghouls.

Its the same as the 'diana syndrome' - people wanting to be there because diana touched them in some way.

********.. its because the press are there, and you feel the need to be special in some way, or you need to be center of attention... its wrong.

If you watched the news yesterday, remember the bit with the guys mam, the crowd was nowhere near her and couldnt give a toss until she started crying.. then its 'lets all crowd round to get in on the camera'..

Sickening for me!
:(

Basically the bottom line is, if you don't like, stop fuelling the media (buying newspapers, paying TV license).

Originally posted by valentine
I agree, it is always sad when someone like the Pope or Diana dies...

It's not necessarily "always sad" at all. Some of us were relieved to see the back of the old boy. Especially considering the death and misery his rulings caused. Not that the new one will be any better mind you....