The village idiots that are in charge of the premiership meet next wednesday (according to sky sports this morning) with regard of a two tier premiership league starting including celtic and rangers.
I personally think it would be unfair, they should start from the coca league and work their way up. I have seen both clubs play this season and in the games seen would suggest they would be lucky to get out of the coca cola championship

They shouldn`t even start in the Coca Cola league, they have no right to just turn up and butt in.

Bristol Downs Div 4, is where they should be starting if they want in.

Celtic and Rangers would get hammered in the Premiership, especially Rangers with all there debt and what have you.
It's never gonna happen, Scottish football needs to accept that it's **** poor and will never get better until there are more than two teams to challenge the scottish title.
When was the last time a team outside of Rangers and Celtic won the SPL?

When was the last time a team outside of Rangers and Celtic won the SPL?


Wouldn't that be Alex Ferguson in the mid-80s? The trouble is, since the money started flowing into the game in the early 90s, the gap has only got bigger - whereas before a good manager and a few youth players coming through, you could make a serious challenge for the league title, now it's just flat-out impossible.

It must be a bit soul destroying for all the rest of the SPL club's and player's knowing there never going to get above Rangers and Celtic, there basiclly playing for third place from day one.

It must be a bit soul destroying for all the rest of the SPL club's and player's knowing there never going to get above Rangers and Celtic, there basically playing for third place from day one.

To be fair, I think you might see a difference this season with both Glasgow teams below par. Rangers are £25M in debt and only acquired 1 signing this season and it looks like Boyd and Davis will be sold soon.
IMO it is going to be a long hard road to travel for the SPL which includes expanding the youth programme and coaching system and in the meantime try and get some more investment and better negotiators for televised matches instead of the pitance they accepted from Sky when Setanta collapsed.

yes think rangers and celtic shud b playin english clubs but wud not put them straight into premiership wud put then in championship and let them earn the right to b in prem like evry body else has too

yes think rangers and celtic shud b playin english clubs but wud not put them straight into premiership wud put then in championship and let them earn the right to b in prem like evry body else has too

So where did they get the right to play in the championship, shouldn’t they earn that as well?

PS

Text speck is frowned upon on the forum. :(

What scares me is the thought of thousands of Rangers supporters in an English city every fortnight.

they will be in league 1 in 2 yrs time if they start in the premiership... :)

What scares me is the thought of thousands of Rangers supporters in an English city every fortnight.

Doesn’t bear thinking about does it.. :o

After Celtic fans sang through the minutes remebrance silence at Falkirk, they can stay in Scotland for good. We don't want them down here.

they wouldnt want to join, why throw away a free pass into europe every year

they wouldnt want to join, why throw away a free pass into europe every year

And the chance that it may be many years before they get any silverware, something both Glasgow club's wont be used to.
It would be a massive culture shock.

They get shown up for what they are when they play in Europe year after year! Second raters in a very poor league!

And the chance that it may be many years before they get any silverware, something both Glasgow club's wont be used to.
It would be a massive culture shock.

Good reasons for the fans not to like the move, but - assuming they can hold down a place in the Premiership, which is not certain - the financial implications are enormous, and the boards of directors would probably jump leagues in a heartbeat.

Haven't we done this umpteen times before?

It's not going to happen for two reasons. The fact that the Old Firm get almost automatic entry to Europe year in, year out, and if they can keep the co-efficients up a reasonable passport to the first Group Stage, and the second being that there are two national Football Associations involved.

The Welsh question should be enough to deny the Old Firm a place in the English leagues.

Haven't we done this umpteen times before?

It's not going to happen for two reasons. The fact that the Old Firm get almost automatic entry to Europe year in, year out, and if they can keep the co-efficients up a reasonable passport to the first Group Stage, and the second being that there are two national Football Associations involved.

The Welsh question should be enough to deny the Old Firm a place in the English leagues.

With Rangers and Celtic's embarrassing displays in Europe over the past few years, isn't there a case for removing the Scottish Champions League places altogether and giving them just one place in the Europa League qualifying rounds, like they do with countries of similar standards such as those of Liechtenstein and the Faroe Islands?

With Rangers and Celtic's embarrassing displays in Europe over the past few years, isn't there a case for removing the Scottish Champions League places altogether and giving them just one place in the Europa League qualifying rounds, like they do with countries of similar standards such as those of Liechtenstein and the Faroe Islands?

:rolleyes:

That would be Celtic:

2003 - beat Blackburn, Celta Vigo, Stuttgart & Liverpool on way to UEFA Cup Final before losing to Porto in extra time.

2004 - lost to Villareal in QF of UEFA Cup after beating Barcelona

2007 - lost to AC Milan 1-0 in last 16 of Champions League (beat Man U in group stages)

2008 - lost to Barcelona in last 16 of Champions League

Rangers:

2006 - lost in last 16 of Champions League to Villareal

2007 - lost in last 16 of UEFA Cup to Osasuna

2008 - reached final of UEFA Cup beating Panathanaikos, Sporting Lisbon, Werder Bremen, & Fiorentina on the way.

:loopy:

"Sometimes I wonder why that frisbee is getting bigger? Then it hits me!"

Is this you?

The Welsh question should be enough to deny the Old Firm a place in the English leagues.

Sorry, are you saying that if Berwick Rangers qualified for Europe (e.g as losing cup finalists) they wouldn't be able to take part?

What about Monaco in France?
Derry City in Eire?
FC Vaduz of Liechenstein in the Swiss league?

With Rangers and Celtic's embarrassing displays in Europe over the past few years, isn't there a case for removing the Scottish Champions League places altogether and giving them just one place in the Europa League qualifying rounds, like they do with countries of similar standards such as those of Liechtenstein and the Faroe Islands?

If that was the case, then the CL spots would be removed. Entitlement is based on teams from that associations past recent performances.

I'd like to see Rangers and Celtic play in a stronger league (I'm a Rangers fan) but understand they dont 'deserve' to play in the premiership. That said, plenty of undeserved things happen all the time, especially when money is a factor. Rangers and Celtic will go somewhere, they cant survive in the modern SPL. They also cant survive as a 4th division team in England starting from scratch, so while there is money to be made off their backs for those with financial incentives there will always be a chance, regardless of whether its fair or not.

It must be a bit soul destroying for all the rest of the SPL club's and player's knowing there never going to get above Rangers and Celtic, there basiclly playing for third place from day one.

Yeah - because that would be really boring having the same 2 or 3 teams win it every year. :thumbsup:


1992–93 Manchester United
1993–94 Manchester United
1994–95 Blackburn Rovers
1995–96 Manchester United
1996–97 Manchester United
1997–98 Arsenal
1998–99 Manchester United
1999–2000 Manchester United
2000–01 Manchester United
2001–02 Arsenal
2002–03 Manchester United
2003–04 Arsenal
2004–05 Chelsea
2005–06 Chelsea
2006–07 Manchester United
2007–08 Manchester United
2008–09 Manchester United

as basically they're playing for 4th or even 5th place :banana:

1998–99 Manchester United Arsenal Chelsea
1999–2000 Manchester United Arsenal Leeds United
2000–01 Manchester United Arsenal Liverpool
2001–02 Arsenal Liverpool Manchester United
2002–03 Manchester United Arsenal Newcastle United
2003–04 Arsenal Chelsea Manchester United
2004–05 Chelsea Arsenal Manchester United
2005–06 Chelsea Manchester United Liverpool
2006–07 Manchester United Chelsea Liverpool
2007–08 Manchester United Chelsea Arsenal
2008–09 Manchester United Liverpool Chelsea

Sorry, are you saying that if Berwick Rangers qualified for Europe (e.g as losing cup finalists) they wouldn't be able to take part?

What about Monaco in France?
Derry City in Eire?
FC Vaduz of Liechenstein in the Swiss league?

I believe that Berwick are affiliated to the Scottish FA, not the English version; therefore the problem doesn't arise, as it does with Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham, of playing in a league in one country but being governed by an FA in a different one.

I don't know about the other three examples, but in Monaco's case, at least, I suspect that there isn't even such a thing as a Monaco FA, since there's only one team in the entire principality.

I believe that Berwick are affiliated to the Scottish FA, not the English version; therefore the problem doesn't arise, as it does with Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham, of playing in a league in one country but being governed by an FA in a different one.


Point taken but Derry City were affiliated to the Irish League & all it took was special dispensation from the IFA & FIFA.

They also went on to represent Southern Ireland in both the European Cup & UEFA Cup so there is a precedent which could, in theory, be applied again to non-English sides.

There is also the example of Israel who play in the European Qualifying groups of the World Cup & take part in the European Championships.

Their clubs also participate in European competitions.

Australia now play in the Asian qualifying groups as opposed to the Oceanic etc .

Agreed, a "special UEFA dispensation" is always available to resolve such problems, if UEFA is going to get money out of it persuaded of the moral argument.

With Rangers and Celtic's embarrassing displays in Europe over the past few years, isn't there a case for removing the Scottish Champions League places altogether and giving them just one place in the Europa League qualifying rounds, like they do with countries of similar standards such as those of Liechtenstein and the Faroe Islands?

Not according to the UEFA co-efficients. They're what define the number of places available to each FA.

That said, what was so difficult about a 'Champions League' (if it has to be a league) just involving 'Champions'?

That said, what was so difficult about a 'Champions League' (if it has to be a league) just involving 'Champions'?


AC Milan didn't qualify for it automatically every year. That was largely the problem with it.

Sorry, are you saying that if Berwick Rangers qualified for Europe (e.g as losing cup finalists) they wouldn't be able to take part?

What about Monaco in France?
Derry City in Eire?
FC Vaduz of Liechenstein in the Swiss league?

No. Doire gained special dispensation in 1985, as there was no other league for them to participate in at a senior level. It should also be noted that the Candystripes have since been expelled for mismanagement.

Monaco, Vaduz, and indeed a couple of clubs in Andorra play outside of their national borders, as there is no league within their borders. That was the case with the Welsh clubs in the 1920s when they joined the English FA, having played in English amateur leagues.

The difference is that UEFA and FIFA decreed that they should play in the newly created League Of Wales, as they are affiliated to the Welsh FA, when it was formed.

Several clubs refused to, citing their historical affiliation to the English leagues, amongst other things, such as finance. This also ended the participation of some English clubs (such as Hereford, Chester and Shrewsbury, among others) in the Welsh Cup. They accepted this, knowing that they would not be able to compete in Europe as a result. This is still in dispute between the authorities, and Platini had spoken in favour of Caerdydd when they reached the FA Cup Final the other year.

Berwick Rangers, who have always been affiliated to the SFA, despite playing in England, would qualify for Europe. Should the Old Firm wish to play in the English Leagues, they would remain under the auspices of the SFA, and would therefore not qualify for European tournaments by acting in competitions outside of the area of their affiliated FA.

The English FA 'could' in theory nominate them for a place, but whether they would be allowed (or that nomination be accepted) to when the Old Firm would be leaving an established league where they can regularly reach European competition, and should they do so how that would affect the UEFA co-efficients may be important.

Point taken but Derry City were affiliated to the Irish League & all it took was special dispensation from the IFA & FIFA.

They also went on to represent Southern Ireland in both the European Cup & UEFA Cup so there is a precedent which could, in theory, be applied again to non-English sides.

Doire spent 13 years playing park football after they 'resigned' from the IFA. It was after that when the newly created League Of Ireland was created in 1985 that they received special dispensation from the IFA, FAI, UEFA and FIFA to compete outside of its politically recognised national border.

There is also the example of Israel who play in the European Qualifying groups of the World Cup & take part in the European Championships.

Their clubs also participate in European competitions.

That is because they are considered as part of the European Economic Area, which contains coutries outside of geographical Europe from Israel to Kazakhstan.Cyprus and Turkey have also competed as such for decades within the European structure.

Australia now play in the Asian qualifying groups as opposed to the Oceanic etc .

Which is entirely different from clubs playing under the auspices of the FA to which they're affiliated. This was a case of an FA being allowed to move its affiliation lock, stock and barrel. To be sure, Australia applied to be part of the Asian Federation in the first place!

Equally, there is no recognised international tournament which Australian club sides compete in, unlike the tournaments held in Europe. Moving a national FA is different from moving two club sides between FAs.

If that was the case, then the CL spots would be removed. Entitlement is based on teams from that associations past recent performances.

I'd like to see Rangers and Celtic play in a stronger league (I'm a Rangers fan) but understand they dont 'deserve' to play in the premiership. That said, plenty of undeserved things happen all the time, especially when money is a factor. Rangers and Celtic will go somewhere, they cant survive in the modern SPL. They also cant survive as a 4th division team in England starting from scratch, so while there is money to be made off their backs for those with financial incentives there will always be a chance, regardless of whether its fair or not.

To the bold, I'm not so sure. Both the Bhoys and you lot (;)) make far too much off field as things stand. I know you have crippling debts (now), and Celtic have really only started to see daylight in real terms in the last few years, but you know as well as I do that most years there will be a few European matches.

There is no way that playing in the English league, even entering at Premiership level would help either club financially. To be sure, it would help a few clubs when it got to the revenue from the away support from both, but not the Old Firm!

TV money would make a massive difference - I dont know the figures exactly, but its something like £3m in the SPL versus £35m in the EPL

The Premiership have once again firmly turned down the proposal.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/nov/12/celtic-rangers-premier-league-rejection

The Premiership have once again firmly turned down the proposal.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/nov/12/celtic-rangers-premier-league-rejection

good- it would kill scottish football and bring untold trouble to citys across england if they were allowed into the PL. If they want to join the PL they should start at the bottom and work upwards like everyone else has had to do (MK dons apart- and that was wrong too)

good- it would kill scottish football and bring untold trouble to citys across england if they were allowed into the PL. If they want to join the PL they should start at the bottom and work upwards like everyone else has had to do (MK dons apart- and that was wrong too)

Rubbish - untold trouble? Wasn't it English teams fans that were in the news recently for that?

Rubbish - untold trouble? Wasn't it English teams fans that were in the news recently for that?

Yes, millwall vs westham which there should never have been any away support allowed for that.

I think that you just need to look at what happenend in machester a few years ago as to why they shouldn't be allowed in too- im not saying its the main reason- its not- but its something you have to take into consideration.

They only want to come to the premiership to earn more money and they think they have an automatic right to be their?

Well i support someone in the championship who i think should be their but the FA arn't going to put my team there- you have to earn it!!

I think the 'trouble' argument is a bit of a non-starter really - the Manchester thing you refer to I assume was the UEFA cup final (nothing to do with the EPL) and there were many contributing factors other than it being a Scottish team involved, and while I agree they were terrible scenes on the news, I dont think that's what you could expect at league games should the old firm play in the EPL.

I do agree with you on the fairness issue - while I would love to see my team play in the EPL, its obviously not fair for those teams on the brink of making it in, who may miss out.

Yeah - because that would be really boring having the same 2 or 3 teams win it every year. :thumbsup:


1992–93 Manchester United
1993–94 Manchester United
1994–95 Blackburn Rovers
1995–96 Manchester United
1996–97 Manchester United
1997–98 Arsenal
1998–99 Manchester United
1999–2000 Manchester United
2000–01 Manchester United
2001–02 Arsenal
2002–03 Manchester United
2003–04 Arsenal
2004–05 Chelsea
2005–06 Chelsea
2006–07 Manchester United
2007–08 Manchester United
2008–09 Manchester United

as basically they're playing for 4th or even 5th place :banana:

1998–99 Manchester United Arsenal Chelsea
1999–2000 Manchester United Arsenal Leeds United
2000–01 Manchester United Arsenal Liverpool
2001–02 Arsenal Liverpool Manchester United
2002–03 Manchester United Arsenal Newcastle United
2003–04 Arsenal Chelsea Manchester United
2004–05 Chelsea Arsenal Manchester United
2005–06 Chelsea Manchester United Liverpool
2006–07 Manchester United Chelsea Liverpool
2007–08 Manchester United Chelsea Arsenal
2008–09 Manchester United Liverpool Chelsea

Still two more club's than the SPL pal.

Yeah - because that would be really boring having the same 2 or 3 teams win it every year. :thumbsup:


1992–93 Manchester United
1993–94 Manchester United
1994–95 Blackburn Rovers
1995–96 Manchester United
1996–97 Manchester United
1997–98 Arsenal
1998–99 Manchester United
1999–2000 Manchester United
2000–01 Manchester United
2001–02 Arsenal
2002–03 Manchester United
2003–04 Arsenal
2004–05 Chelsea
2005–06 Chelsea
2006–07 Manchester United
2007–08 Manchester United
2008–09 Manchester United

as basically they're playing for 4th or even 5th place :banana:

1998–99 Manchester United Arsenal Chelsea
1999–2000 Manchester United Arsenal Leeds United
2000–01 Manchester United Arsenal Liverpool
2001–02 Arsenal Liverpool Manchester United
2002–03 Manchester United Arsenal Newcastle United
2003–04 Arsenal Chelsea Manchester United
2004–05 Chelsea Arsenal Manchester United
2005–06 Chelsea Manchester United Liverpool
2006–07 Manchester United Chelsea Liverpool
2007–08 Manchester United Chelsea Arsenal
2008–09 Manchester United Liverpool Chelsea

This makes even sadder reading...........

Season Winner Runner-up Relegated Top Scorer Players' Player of the Year Writers' Player of the Year
2008–09 Rangers Celtic Inverness CT Kris Boyd 27 ( Rangers) Scott Brown (Celtic) Gary Caldwell (Celtic)
2007–08 Celtic Rangers Gretna Scott McDonald 25 (Celtic) Aiden McGeady (Celtic) Carlos Cuellar (Rangers)
2006–07 Celtic Rangers Dunfermline Athletic Kris Boyd 20 (Rangers) Shunsuke Nakamura (Celtic) Shunsuke Nakamura (Celtic)
2005–06 Celtic Heart of Midlothian Livingston Kris Boyd 32 (15 - Kilmarnock, 17 - Rangers) Shaun Maloney (Celtic) Craig Gordon (Hearts)
2004–05 Rangers Celtic Dundee John Hartson 25 (Celtic) John Hartson (Celtic) /
Fernando Ricksen (Rangers) John Hartson (Celtic)
2003–04 Celtic Rangers Partick Thistle Henrik Larsson 30 (Celtic) Chris Sutton (Celtic) Jackie McNamara (Celtic)
2002–03 Rangers Celtic No Relegation Henrik Larsson 28 (Celtic) Barry Ferguson (Rangers) Barry Ferguson (Rangers)
2001–02 Celtic Rangers St. Johnstone Henrik Larsson 29 (Celtic) Lorenzo Amoruso (Rangers) Paul Lambert (Celtic)
2000–01 Celtic Rangers St. Mirren Henrik Larsson 35 (Celtic) Henrik Larsson (Celtic) Henrik Larsson (Celtic)
1999–00 Rangers Celtic No Relegation Mark Viduka 25 (Celtic) Mark Viduka (Celtic) Barry Ferguson (Rangers)
1998–99 Rangers Celtic Dunfermline Athletic Henrik Larsson 29 (Celtic) Henrik Larsson (Celtic) Henrik Larsson (Celtic)