The recent Carnage event (pub crawl) has caused an outcry because of the drunken behaviour of some of those taking part.

Should the organisers be forced to pay for extra policing and clear up costs before such events are allowed in future, or should the event simply be banned?

They've been going for 5 years without incident. Suddenly after 1 guy who can't take the amount of alcohol he chooses to drink we are now saying ban them? Seems a little excessive...

Shall we ban religion because of all the trouble it creates? Or how about sending a bill to Greenpeace for the extra police on hand at one of their "protests"?

Carnage has only been running for four years in Sheffield, and there have been numerous minor incidents over those three years. This is the first time one of those has ended up in court.

Carnage offers nothing to the city. It's a private business with the one aim of removing as much cash as possible from students for as little cost possible, and with virtually no regards to the welfare of it's customers, or their relations with the cities in which they operate. They have gone on record numerous times that they have trained stewards, free soft drinks and trained first aiders. If these stewards (which are just other students, working as volunteers for free entry into the event), were doing their jobs properly Phil Laing would not have ended up in the state he did.

I have no problem with pub crawls organised by students themselves. Either they are only a group of mates / a course night out and the numbers are so small they disapear into the general nighttime life, or they're being run to raise awareness or money for a cause. They're never being run for the sole reason of making lots of money for themselves.

Shall we ban religion because of all the trouble it creates? Or how about sending a bill to Greenpeace for the extra police on hand at one of their "protests"?

Both of these are different. Religion is not organised solely to fight with people who believe in a different God. Incidents between people of different faiths are normally because they're going against their teachings of religous tolerance, not simply because they're religous. Again with Greenpeace - they have a very specific agenda, and while their events may sometimes cause trouble, that is not what they exist to do. Carnage on the other hand exists solely to make money from students, and leave the clean up to the city, and any blame for their antics with the students.

Carnage has only been running for four years in Sheffield, and there have been numerous minor incidents over those three years. This is the first time one of those has ended up in court.

Carnage offers nothing to the city. It's a private business with the one aim of removing as much cash as possible from students for as little cost possible, and with virtually no regards to the welfare of it's customers, or their relations with the cities in which they operate. They have gone on record numerous times that they have trained stewards, free soft drinks and trained first aiders. If these stewards (which are just other students, working as volunteers for free entry into the event), were doing their jobs properly Phil Laing would not have ended up in the state he did.

I have no problem with pub crawls organised by students themselves. Either they are only a group of mates / a course night out and the numbers are so small they disapear into the general nighttime life, or they're being run to raise awareness or money for a cause. They're never being run for the sole reason of making lots of money for themselves.



Both of these are different. Religion is not organised solely to fight with people who believe in a different God. Incidents between people of different faiths are normally because they're going against their teachings of religous tolerance, not simply because they're religous. Again with Greenpeace - they have a very specific agenda, and while their events may sometimes cause trouble, that is not what they exist to do. Carnage on the other hand exists solely to make money from students, and leave the clean up to the city, and any blame for their antics with the students.

You're forgetting that 90% of the students on a Carnage night behave well, pour thousands into the local economy (on a Sunday night, probably tripling most bars income for that night) have a good time and go home without causing destruction.

As a matter of interest who pays for policing and clean up costs when United or Wednesday have a football match in the city?

As a matter of interest who pays for policing and clean up costs when United or Wednesday have a football match in the city?

The football clubs pay for the extra policing required usually.

I think its only for police/stewards in the ground but obviously if a football related fight happens 2 hours after the final whistle its nothing to do with them.

You're forgetting that 90% of the students on a Carnage night behave well, pour thousands into the local economy (on a Sunday night, probably tripling most bars income for that night) have a good time and go home without causing destruction.

That is the point. We are in danger here of spoiling what is becoming a traditional event for students because a few behaved badly on one occasion. I am sure that a minority of football supporters behave badly every time that the Owls or Blades play at home. Are we going to ban football in the city too?:|

They've been going for 5 years without incident. Suddenly after 1 guy who can't take the amount of alcohol he chooses to drink we are now saying ban them? Seems a little excessive...

Shall we ban religion because of all the trouble it creates? Or how about sending a bill to Greenpeace for the extra police on hand at one of their "protests"?

I think if Greenpeace charged money to those taking part in one of their protests it would be reasonable to ask them to pay for policing costs.

I think if Greenpeace charged money to those taking part in one of their protests it would be reasonable to ask them to pay for policing costs.

Embrace charge people to go in there (mugs, admittedly) but they don't pay for the police when it all kicks off every night...

I don't live in Sheffield anymore (my loss) so I don't know what carnage is. My son goes to Newcastle university. In his first year he attended a few events that I think would have been similar to carnage. He's told me that this year the university have either banned such events or have told the organisers to tone them down a bit. Presumabley they had some trouble last year and don't want a repeat this year. So what has Sheffield University's response been to the trouble with carnage?

why should carnage have to pay?
they didnt make him drink the amount of alcohol he did - he chose to
I am a student myself and regularly attend carnage nights out. it is a laugh for the students and most of us do not cause any trouble or abuse. This guy took things too far and im sure regrets his actions. it was a mistake and one im sure he wont be repeating. Carnage did not promote heavy drinking. Infact this is the email below sent out by carnage warning students there is a zero tolerance policy!

The Police in Sheffield for this Sunday's event will have a 100% ZERO TOLERANCE POLICY - if you commit even a small crime, you will be made an example of. DO NOT LET THIS BE YOU OR ONE OF YOUR FRIENDS!!

Criminal Offences include ANY of the following:

1) Drinking alcohol in the street..yes, this is an OFFENCE under by-law in Sheffield.
2) Carrying alcohol in bottle and cans, whilst walking ANYWHERE in the streets... yes, this is an OFFENCE under by-law in Sheffield.
3) Arriving by taxi and carrying bottles or cans when you arrive..yes, this is an OFFENCE under by-law in Sheffield.
4) Drinking too much alcohol and being drunk
5) Urinating ANYWHERE in public (including in alleyways/flower beds) is A CRIMINAL OFFENCE for which you can (and will) be ARRESTED AND DETAINED. (use a toilet in a bar.PLEASE)
6) Using a marker pen on ANYTHING that is not your property (offence = VANDALISM - yes, you will be arrested)

Helpful tips to STAY OUT OF TROUBLE
*******************************

1) Do NOT bring drinks into Sheffield City Centre.
2) NO horseplay - piggy backing in the streets etc
3) Respect the community - do not be loud and boisterous - Let's all show everyone that Sheffield Students are not all the same, and that they are mindful and respectful of local feelings in the current climate.
4) Please do NOT sit on pavements etc - you do NOT want to be pictured in the NATIONAL NEWSPAPERS and 'labelled' as a problem student.
5) Walk on the pavements and do NOT wander into the roads or tram tracks - your SAFETY is important.

Carnage UK is here to give you nights to remember. You do NOT want it to turn in to a night that you would rather forget!

why should carnage have to pay?
they didnt make him drink the amount of alcohol he did - he chose to
I am a student myself and regularly attend carnage nights out. it is a laugh for the students and most of us do not cause any trouble or abuse. This guy took things too far and im sure regrets his actions. it was a mistake and one im sure he wont be repeating. Carnage did not promote heavy drinking. Infact this is the email below sent out by carnage warning students there is a zero tolerance policy!

The Police in Sheffield for this Sunday's event will have a 100% ZERO TOLERANCE POLICY - if you commit even a small crime, you will be made an example of. DO NOT LET THIS BE YOU OR ONE OF YOUR FRIENDS!!

Criminal Offences include ANY of the following:

1) Drinking alcohol in the street..yes, this is an OFFENCE under by-law in Sheffield.
2) Carrying alcohol in bottle and cans, whilst walking ANYWHERE in the streets... yes, this is an OFFENCE under by-law in Sheffield.
3) Arriving by taxi and carrying bottles or cans when you arrive..yes, this is an OFFENCE under by-law in Sheffield.
4) Drinking too much alcohol and being drunk
5) Urinating ANYWHERE in public (including in alleyways/flower beds) is A CRIMINAL OFFENCE for which you can (and will) be ARRESTED AND DETAINED. (use a toilet in a bar.PLEASE)
6) Using a marker pen on ANYTHING that is not your property (offence = VANDALISM - yes, you will be arrested)

Helpful tips to STAY OUT OF TROUBLE
*******************************

1) Do NOT bring drinks into Sheffield City Centre.
2) NO horseplay - piggy backing in the streets etc
3) Respect the community - do not be loud and boisterous - Let's all show everyone that Sheffield Students are not all the same, and that they are mindful and respectful of local feelings in the current climate.
4) Please do NOT sit on pavements etc - you do NOT want to be pictured in the NATIONAL NEWSPAPERS and 'labelled' as a problem student.
5) Walk on the pavements and do NOT wander into the roads or tram tracks - your SAFETY is important.

Carnage UK is here to give you nights to remember. You do NOT want it to turn in to a night that you would rather forget!

You seem to be missing the point. The poll didn't mention the idiot who disgraced himself. The point is about who pays for the general cleaning up after the event no matter who got drunk, who threw up or who went home nice and early.

You're forgetting that 90% of the students on a Carnage night behave well, pour thousands into the local economy (on a Sunday night, probably tripling most bars income for that night) have a good time and go home without causing destruction.

No I'm not.

There are far better organised, operated, managed and responsible events run in the city which have far higher than 90% of their customers behaving themselves. Carnage is not operated responsibly, their sole aim is to remove as much cash as possible from their customers.

There are hundreds of people who work very hard across the city to ensure their customers have a good night, while causing minimum disruption and offence to other users of the city.

I don't see why council tax payers should foot the bill for providing extra police and clean up staff so that a private company can line its pockets whilst causing drunken chaos in the city centre.

You seem to be missing the point. The poll didn't mention the idiot who disgraced himself. The point is about who pays for the general cleaning up after the event no matter who got drunk, who threw up or who went home nice and early.

I get the point. I dont think carnage should have to pay for the clear up costs. If the pubs and bars are allowing student attending carnage to enter there bar surely they should be responsible for any costs within that bar. To be honest what clear up costs are we refering to here? Because not many students make a mess where someone needs to be paid to clear this up.

I'm no legal eagle but I think there may be a case for Carnage having to pay up.

The event takes places in multiple bars - therefore the students have to travel between bars. They are wearing Carnage t shirts and are therefore technically on an organised group outing. Therefore anything that happens to them inbetween bars should be taken up by Carnage.

Does anyone from Carnage actually accompany them? Is anyone there inbetween bars to make sure they know where the next bar is and to keep an eye out for any antisocial behaviour?

I've never heard of Carnage before, but since learning about what it stands for I think it's ludicrous.

How they can claim they don't encourage binge drinking is beyond me.
I voted 'these events have no place' however, that's in an ideal world - as they will continue I think they should be held more accountable.

Sorry but the way I see it they encourage dangerous binge drinking, taking no consideration for the health of the people taking part and just see the money rolling in.

If people want to organise their own bar crawls then they're perfectly able to do so - and then yes, they can be held accountable for anything that happens.

However - the fault does not only lie with Carnage but also with the license holders who, by law, should not be selling to anyone who they deem has had enough but again, just see the money rolling in.

You team up cheap drinks and discounted club entry with peer pressure and you will have problems.

However - the fault does not only lie with Carnage but also with the license holders who, by law, should not be selling to anyone who they deem has had enough but again, just see the money rolling in.

Its a very small bar crawl. Its not like they go in 10 bars and have a shot/drink in each. The main part of the crawl is ending up in Embrace and everyone having a decent time like they do on a Friday/Saturday night. People drink no more on a Carnage night than a standard night out, and there is no reason for them to do so either. Fine, there might be a couple of free shots but they are hardly going to tip people over the edge are they? There are offers for those in t-shirts, like there are offers in bars every day of the week.

I think encouraging hard drinking is something that should be legislated against. Year after Year students die from alcohol poisoning from drinking bouts. Alcohol related incidents are stretching police forces to breaking point. At the very least organisations such as Carnage should have to pay for hospital treatment and policing.

i voted for "The council tax payers should pick up the tab" btw.

The recent Carnage event (pub crawl) has caused an outcry because of the drunken behaviour of some of those taking part.

Should the organisers be forced to pay for extra policing and clear up costs before such events are allowed in future, or should the event simply be banned?

What about the bars that serve the booze?

I think encouraging hard drinking is something that should be legislated against. Year after Year students die from alcohol poisoning from drinking bouts. Alcohol related incidents are stretching police forces to breaking point. At the very least organisations such as Carnage should have to pay for hospital treatment and policing.

i'd be interested to know the percentage of students who drink that die from alcohol poisioning.

of course, only students drink, all the alcoholics in the brown bear and the bankers draft are students.

police forces are stretched to breaking point by those who decide to engage in anti social behaviour, something I think you will find is nothing to do with students. interesting how you can have midweeks at the student union with no police presence whatsoever but come saturday night in town, sheffield's finest come out in force and the police actually have some work to do.

What about the bars that serve the booze?

what about the huge levels of tax that drinkers pay?

Its a very small bar crawl. Its not like they go in 10 bars and have a shot/drink in each. The main part of the crawl is ending up in Embrace and everyone having a decent time like they do on a Friday/Saturday night. People drink no more on a Carnage night than a standard night out, and there is no reason for them to do so either. Fine, there might be a couple of free shots but they are hardly going to tip people over the edge are they? There are offers for those in t-shirts, like there are offers in bars every day of the week.

Thanks Sharp, obviously, you have experienced it whereas I haven't, so I accept you will know more than me from first hand experience.

However - I don't really understand why people would pay Carnage UK for the big organised event if it's no 'better' or they don't drink more/do more than on a standard night out.

Funny you should mention t-shirts... Don't the t-shirts have a tick list of places on the back so that people can compete to fill them all in? If this isn't encouraging binge drinking I don't know what is!

Alcohol is a bad, bad drug. I say ban it.

Its a very small bar crawl. Its not like they go in 10 bars and have a shot/drink in each. The main part of the crawl is ending up in Embrace and everyone having a decent time like they do on a Friday/Saturday night. People drink no more on a Carnage night than a standard night out, and there is no reason for them to do so either.

Really? I know several people who've said (a few days after the event when they've recovered the ability to stand) that they've never drunk as much before as they did on Carnage.

At least one other person has also told me the only reason they go on Carnage events is because "everyone is totally wrecked", which you don't get on a normal night.

I don't see why council tax payers should foot the bill for providing extra police and clean up staff so that a private company can line its pockets whilst causing drunken chaos in the city centre.

Agree totally.

Really? I know several people who've said (a few days after the event when they've recovered the ability to stand) that they've never drunk as much before as they did on Carnage.

So where are they getting served? Pubs/clubs and the staff shouldn't serve people who are wrecked. We've had this debate before.. the 'who is responsible?'

At least one other person has also told me the only reason they go on Carnage events is because "everyone is totally wrecked", which you don't get on a normal night.

The discussion seemed to be should the council pay for the clear up.

There are far better organised, operated, managed and responsible events run in the city which have far higher than 90% of their customers behaving themselves. Carnage is not operated responsibly, their sole aim is to remove as much cash as possible from their customers.
Be honest, this 90% is just a random figure that you have quoted, because it suits your argument. There are around 50,000 students in Sheffield, even if only half of them went out, are you claiming that there were 2500 incidents on the night?.

And, most businesses aim to remove cash from pockets.

There are hundreds of people who work very hard across the city to ensure their customers have a good night, while causing minimum disruption and offence to other users of the city.

The post earlier regarding Embrace customers, is as good an example. If staff on carnage nights don't care about serving 'wasted' customers, then Embrace or other such estabs care no less on other nights.

I'm no legal eagle but I think there may be a case for Carnage having to pay up.

Paying up for what? How much damage was caused?

Anymore than than a Friday or Saturday night?. When I go home from work at 1am on Fri and Sat, West Street is covered in fast food wrappings, and general rubbish. That's 2 nights every week out of 7. How many carnage nights are there every year?

The event takes places in multiple bars - therefore the students have to travel between bars. They are wearing Carnage t shirts and are therefore technically on an organised group outing. Therefore anything that happens to them inbetween bars should be taken up by Carnage.
:confused:

and?

Good god, how many miserable people live in this city?


Does anyone from Carnage actually accompany them? Is anyone there inbetween bars to make sure they know where the next bar is and to keep an eye out for any antisocial behaviour?

I saw shouting, laughing, smiling on the night. So a bloke p!$$ed on a memorial, one bloke, we've already established that thousands were out.. how many other incidents have even made the Sheffield Star, let alone the Mirror, or Daily Mail. :roll:

I've never heard of Carnage before, but since learning about what it stands for I think it's ludicrous.

You're right. Having fun should be outlawed.

How they can claim they don't encourage binge drinking is beyond me.

Come on Lotti, you are cleverer than that. The binge drinking line is a tabloid one.

I voted 'these events have no place' however, that's in an ideal world - as they will continue I think they should be held more accountable.

Sorry but the way I see it they encourage dangerous binge drinking, taking no consideration for the health of the people taking part and just see the money rolling in.

If people want to organise their own bar crawls then they're perfectly able to do so - and then yes, they can be held accountable for anything that happens.

So if I organise a pub crawl that encourages binge drinking then it's ok? As long as I put a little line in the corner of the flyer that says 'please drink responsibly'... Lotti, with this type of thinking, you are becoming part of the government institutional way of thinking.

I think encouraging hard drinking is something that should be legislated against. Year after Year students die from alcohol poisoning from drinking bouts.
Oh, don't be silly. Year after year students die from alcohol poisoning? How many so far this year? or any figures at all for any year here in lovely Sheffield?

Alcohol related incidents are stretching police forces to breaking point. At the very least organisations such as Carnage should have to pay for hospital treatment and policing.

When? Fridays? Saturdays? What night was Carnage? I worked it, and saw no more bother than an average Fri or Sat with your average Sheffielder.

Alcohol is a bad, bad drug. I say ban it.

You're prolly right. So far in this thread, everyone who drinks appears to be the devil. :hihi:

Should the organisers be forced to pay for extra policing and clear up costs before such events are allowed in future, or should the event simply be banned?

As long as the same criteria is applied to football matches, I'm cool with that.

After all, which event(s) cause the greater amount of disturbance?

The football clubs pay for the extra policing required usually.

I think its only for police/stewards in the ground

The police have historically only charged for "special services" - that is, a police presence inside a club's grounds.

These are worked out at the start of each season when games are graded according to intelligence.

The cost of consequential policing - outside the ground - has traditionally been swallowed by police forces, and passed on to the taxpayer - be they football fans or not.

Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7205305.stm)

On the few occasions I've been to a match, there have always been many more police outside the ground than in.

True you don`t see many police inside grounds these days

I doubt football fan's would **** all over our war memorial though and even if they did they would have got hurt by the next football fan who walked passed rather than everyone watching him do it, what a dirty dog that fella is eh.......

A pub crawl called Carnage? The stupid students must almost feel obliged to get blind drunk.

Another pathetic example of the drinking habits of this country. No wonder we're the laughing stock of the world.:loopy:

what about the huge levels of tax that drinkers pay?

Doesn't give them the right to smash things up and the bill will be paid.

Doesn't give them the right to smash things up and the bill will be paid.

never said it did. what do you think about the tax on alcohol?

great post from *_ash_* sums it all up for me.

never said it did. what do you think about the tax on alcohol?

great post from *_ash_* sums it all up for me.

Same as I think about tax on everything else, it's out of control.

However moaning about what the tax payer should fork out for is not going to help. I never noticed taxes going down when we were'nt at war for example.

I doubt football fan's would **** all over our war memorial though and even if they did they would have got hurt by the next football fan who walked passed rather than everyone watching him do it, what a dirty dog that fella is eh.......

Sorry but as a fellow football fan I disagree.

Some of the stuff I've seen by my own fans in cities across the country are despicable. Trashing bars, shops, streets, memorials and generally treating the place as though its part of Hitlers Germany...

Football fans are much worse than students. I've been ashamed to be a football supporter on many occasions when travelling to other cities.