Just been reading in The Weekly Telegraph [no.731] , where 4 police officers in Manchester have been dimissed after a 10 month investigation.
What had they done ? Beaten a suspect up in the cells ? Injured someone by reckless driving ? Shouted racialist comments in the canteen or on their work shifts ?
No , they had been sending racialist text messages , privately .
I'm sure we must have far too many police if we can get rid of them so easily. It wasn't a wise or nice thing for the officers to have done------but dismissal ?
This was not long after the Chief Constable had sent 11,000 officers a letter warning them about their behaviour . Must be a badly trained police force !
All this must be a great morale booster for the police who are risking their lives searching for terrorists and spend their normal , every-day lives coming across dangerous lunatics and murderers.
Still , I expect the Chief Constable had to show Mr. Clarke he was keeping up his disciplinary targets .

P.S.

p.s. to the above :----just checked the paper again and it says they sent a racist JOKE by text message , presumably , just one : not J-O-K-E-S.
So , if you work in the public services -----or anywhere I suppose , these days ------be careful ! No racist comments or jokes.

if I remember correctly they were showing the joke around at work. So the fact that it was private phones was irrelevant, if they'd done it on their own time then no one would have been interested.

The manchester police has had a problem with racism, do you remember the bbc documentary showing racism by trainers during the basic training (they were sacked too).
They've put their foot down and are doing their best to stamp it out entirely, so those officers should have known better.

If I got a racist joke at work, i'd delete it, that sort of thing isn't particularly funny, except normally in a slightly sick way, and it's always against any works policy to distribute that sort of thing, may as well sit downloading porn and invite the boss to come and have a look.

i.m in agreement with cyclone. an acquaintance of mine is in the force & he is always the first with the racial jokes or bad taste humour regarding accidents etc. i know it helps them in a stressful job but i would think it wise to be careful where this type of thing is exhibited.

I have to disagree with Cyclone to a degree. There are 'racist' jokes that are harmless fun. Did you hear the one about the englishman, the irishman, and the scotsman ... IS a racist joke in the beginning. There have been quite a few jokes about the Irish and the English on this forum. They are racist.

Ah - but then I am not being very pc am I as it is okay to joke about non ethnic races I guess. These so called racist jokes about blacks - are they still racist when told by someone like Lenny Henry?

Just another example of pc gone insane. Of course there are those jokes about mothers and mother-in-laws, and blondes and such which are sexist and should get you fired from your job.

In fact - there are very few jobs that the uprighteous brigade cannot find break some rule. They are jokes - have a sense of humour.

Dragon

Well , the important point of my comment , in case anybody missed it , was that the men had been dismissed because of the offence.I said they had been unwise ......etc...
However , especially in the present circumstances , I would have thought there were more suitable punishments.
Another aspect is , can an organisation regulate at all , concerning people's humour or attitudes ? There is a danger that they drive it "underground" and it becomes that much more sinister.You can legislate , fairly easily against overt racialism in a police force , I suppose , but trying to control the feelings , outlook and humour of 11,000 officers , is going to be rather difficult and time-consuming , I would have thought.
Weighing the time consumed [and expense ?] of dealing with one tasteless joke against the careers of 4 officers , the expence of originally training them , the fact that we probably need all the police officers we can get , it seems to me that the Manchester police are throwing talent and money down the drain faster than you can say , " Hello, hello ,hello ".

Originally posted by Fareast
Well , the important point of my comment , in case anybody missed it , was that the men had been dismissed because of the offence.I said they had been unwise ......etc...
However , especially in the present circumstances , I would have thought there were more suitable punishments.
Another aspect is , can an organisation regulate at all , concerning people's humour or attitudes ? There is a danger that they drive it "underground" and it becomes that much more sinister.You can legislate , fairly easily against overt racialism in a police force , I suppose , but trying to control the feelings , outlook and humour of 11,000 officers , is going to be rather difficult and time-consuming , I would have thought.


Indeed you can't control the thoughts and feelings of the officers. But assuming the rationale behinfd it is to stamp out racism on the force, surely the only option is to dismiss people who cannot subscribe to the kind of ethics and behaviour that are required. The Police are trying to change the embedded culture of racism among their ranks, and it is inevitable that some people who can't be made to change their views are going to be casualties.

Well , Bully Beef , maybe you're right and the police will in fact dismiss any officer found guilty of making racist jokes or A joke in police time.
I only hope that when it comes to hunting down terrorists or dealing with the everyday scum who infect our society , they have enough experienced officers to do the job.

Havn't the PC done a brilliant job of brainwashing us all that now a harmless joke can cost people their jobs? I'm surprised they havn't took the next logical step and jailed those police officers cause that's the direction they're heading in

Racism is about segregation, denying a culture their political and religious convictions and their lives.

I don't know anyone that's died of an englishman/irishman/scotsman joke. Is anyone under the impression that the IRA disbanded because we all stuck our hands on our hearts and promised to knock off the Mick n' Paddy jokes?


There is intolerance in our multi-racial society but I'm guessing you'd have to look further than our sense of humour for the cause

Time we booted out the PC and got back to having a grip on reality

some things are clearly jokes, since we don't know the details whatever these officers were passing round may actually have been offensive.

No one's going to be offended by an English man, irish man, scotts man joke, I hope, but there are jokes that could be offensive...

It's a fine line to walk, and dismissal does seem harsh for a first offence... I don't know...

I like the idea of stamping down on racism in the force, but it could easily be taken too far, without the full details of this incident, including the joke, we'll never be able to say whether this one was too far or not.

Will someone please redefine racism!

A joke by it's very definition is just that no matter how tasteless

Can racism ever be suppressed by laws? I doubt it, unless we institute some Orwellian type of thought police. Perhaps it's a natural part of the human condition to want to live among those you best identify with. Perhaps we have been programmed through millenia of nomadic and expansionist conflicts to protect what we regard as our tribal space. However, just as there are varying levels of religious tolerance, stretching from multi-faith harmony to being willing to kill and be killed to establish a single global religion, there are varying levels of racial tolerance, too.

The media, is currently reporting the axe-murder of the black 18-year-old in Huyton, Liverpool. He was picked on, it seems, because he had a white girlfriend. Now, this is an example of racism at its most right-wing. It is awful. Of that there is no doubt. But, it should be noted that proven instances of racial murder are rare in Britain. Which is surprising really, given that the latest figures suggest that instances of general murder, manslaughter and beating are at a high. The crime, of course, invites comparisons with the murder of the black teenager, Stephen Lawrence, and, inevitably, the police will have realised its political implications and will be investigating the crime rigorously.

At the other end of the spectrum, the police officers sacked for allegedly texting a racial joke to each other were, in my opinion, guilty of being foolish. Foolish because they, being police officers, are expected to make better decisions than that. From a more human perspective though, they were doing what countless numbers of humans do everyday in offices, factories, shops, schools and bars: telling jokes that depend for their humour on the varied differences between people. However, just as the white-dominated police recognize the political implications of the recent racial murder, so they will have realized the political implications of the racial texting. Today's political climate has left them with no choice but to sack the officers. And, it seems they were justified in their decision; imagine the furore, in the light of this forthcoming murder, if they had not done so.

In the struggle to reprogram human minds away from racist instincts, perhaps both the media and the police should seek to balance their reports and investigations of racist attacks. At present, while much is made of white racism, hardly any spotlight falls on racism towards whites. It is imbalances such as this, coupled with other forms of social positive discrimation towards those who consider themselves the indigenous race, that fuels resentment.

See link below.

Could this have been racially motivated? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4733097.stm)

Originally posted by Splodge_CRB
Will someone please redefine racism!

A joke by it's very definition is just that no matter how tasteless

that's clearly not true.

Sexist jokes told by a manager to his PA could constitue sexual harrasment, racist jokes could constitute racial harrasment if told in a certain way around or too people of that race.

The problem is that you can't define rules and policies that cover these nuances, so you either ban such jokes or don't (in the workplace).

Originally posted by Fareast
Just been reading in The Weekly Telegraph [no.731] , where 4 police officers in Manchester have been dimissed after a 10 month investigation.
What had they done ? Beaten a suspect up in the cells ? Injured someone by reckless driving ? Shouted racialist comments in the canteen or on their work shifts ?
No , they had been sending racialist text messages , privately .
I'm sure we must have far too many police if we can get rid of them so easily. It wasn't a wise or nice thing for the officers to have done------but dismissal ?
This was not long after the Chief Constable had sent 11,000 officers a letter warning them about their behaviour . Must be a badly trained police force !
All this must be a great morale booster for the police who are risking their lives searching for terrorists and spend their normal , every-day lives coming across dangerous lunatics and murderers.
Still , I expect the Chief Constable had to show Mr. Clarke he was keeping up his disciplinary targets .

Belive me GMP officers are breed of their own (potty) but the officer that bullied me out of my job from South Yorkshire kept her job nothing was said or dine to her and everryone knew what she was doing i resigned from a job i loved, the pressure was unbeliveable. The police force is full of back stabbers these days not worth joinging

Originally posted by Cyclone
that's clearly not true.

Sexist jokes told by a manager to his PA could constitue sexual harrasment, racist jokes could constitute racial harrasment if told in a certain way around or too people of that race.

The problem is that you can't define rules and policies that cover these nuances, so you either ban such jokes or don't (in the workplace).

PC again

Please don't confuse jokes with personal abuse or misuse of ones position in the workplace
If a joke is delivered to the world at large then you can merely say it's tasteless to whatever extreme
If they're directed at someone personally with the result that person feels uncomfortable then you can hold it's abusive and you have the right to redress. That goes for all people in any culture

Those police officers were not personally directing a stupid joke at any one person in particular, where's the abuse?
The whole issue has been blurred and fudged so much now it's just cost four trained men their career.......pathetic

I just wonder if the next time I hear someone telling a joke about an englishman I can have them arrested for racism?

This supposed racism is getting completely out of hand. I have heard many a black man on television telling jokes about other blacks but this is not racism. They tell the joke because it is funny to all but the PC crew.

Aside from that I agree mostly with spldge on this one.

Dragon

Originally posted by Dragon

This supposed racism is getting completely out of hand.
Dragon

Too damn right!

I think the top brass of the GMP are an offensive joke all by themselves for kowtowing to the PC (Partly Conscious) brigade.

They sacrificed four able highly trained officers to an imagined public reaction instead of taking a stand and trying to influence a change as to what constitutes racism. An 18 yr old has died in a vicious and undisputedly racist attack, you can't tell me any one of those supposedly racist officers wouldn't have been sickened by the crime and not done their level best

Maybe we should have what constitutes racism legally defined by the courts, as far as I'm aware we don't have any

There have been cases where people are personally abused or victimised but that is the work of individuals and not national policy.

Well someone obviously found their 'joke' offensive otherwise it would not have been reported?

If there are rules in a workplace, and these are clearly defined and people made aware of the consequences, then if they choose to break those rules they face the consequences - it's their choice.

They were, IMHO, foolish. Do we want such foolish people in the police force? Could these foolish people be trusted to be impartial in all aspects of their work and follow orders when they've already proved they're prepared to break rules?

There are rules in some organisations which may appear petty to other people, but if you value your job you stick to the rules, simple as that really. For example, I know one organisation that will potentially sack anyone who brings the name of that organisation into disrepute - fighting or arguing in a bar with one or more colleagues present constitutes bringing the name of the organisation into disrepute and hence the incident would be investigated and they may face dismissal.

Back in the good old days of the Greater Manchester Police authority, they had a wonderful Chief Constable, Mr James Anderton. He knew a few things about proper policing.....

In 1981, The Black Parents Association in Manchester said that Moss Side police station 'has long been regarded by the black community as the operational base of a racist army in occupation'. It accused the police of 'SAS-style raids' and 'brutality, violence, intimidation and racial abuse'. This followed the use of 16 police vehicles and 28 officers to arrest a youth who had gone into a library carrying a 2 foot bamboo cane; he was later released without charge.

But James Anderton's style of community policing wasn't just confined to antagonising the black and ethnic minority residents of Manchester.

In 1987, he publicly stated that, in his opinion, all homosexual activity should be made criminal. A born-again Christian, Anderton also condemned modern society as a 'swirling human cesspit' and AIDS as 'a self-inflicted scourge'.

Good old James Anderton - not one to mess with words was he? Did absolute wonders for the concept of policing with community consent.

Maybe Manchester Police have a difficult legacy to overcome when it comes to race and community relations? Maybe the current Chief Constable took a very firm line with these officers in order to demonstrate to the citizens of Manchester that he will not tolerate racist attitudes in his police force? If so, I commend him.

Hels ,

Yes , but there's a difference surely between a ," foolish "person and a personwho does a foolish thing.
A , "foolish " person implies that that person is just a fool and , in turn , implies that they would be no good at their job. Presumably , the 4 police officers in Manchester were up to the job or they would have been dismissed years before for something else ?
If people were dismissed for doing foolish actions , now and again , well , telling inappropriate jokes , our work-places would only be half-full.
Imagine a fireman , just after fighting a nasty , dangerous blaze , gets back to the station and in his relief , tells his mate an Irish joke he's come across. His superiors overhear him and , Wham------another useful career down the swanee.This is basically what these 4 officers have done. Technically they were wrong , by the rules of today but was it a good thing to spend 10 months investigating it and then dismissing them ? NOT for being foolish men but for doing a foolish action.A man who nicks some paper from the office can hardly be called a full-time professional thief !
This case has undertones of a case in London a few years ago where a long-serving police officer had sworn at a black teenager as he was struggling to arrest him. Investigation.....etc.....and the officer was dismissed. Even the boy's mother said that it was a stupid o.t.t .punishment. The officer was actually well-respected , in the everyday way , by the local Black community ; his action was a foolish lapse.
The P.C. brigade will eventually create an atmosphere , at this rate , in the police service , of a lot of embittered men and women , secrecy and most of them looking over their shoulder to see who might be listening to them ; in my opinion precisely the wrong atmosphere for men and women doing a dirty , dangerous job..

I'm not disputing the joke was offensive, far from it.

I do however dispute the attitude that cost four men their jobs.

Police have a high risk, high stress job as it is without having to watch every p and q as well. Humour is one way of diffusing bad situations

mortuary humour could be classed as truly sick and disrespectful to the dead, could you do that job without using humour to take the edge off a very grim and unappealing task?

Traffic cops and ambulance drivers do the same

Every single cop the length and breadth of this land is on the lookout for possible terrorist activity, they're the ones that go in and mop up the mess after a bombing, not knowing if there's going to be another one just yards away. If they use gallows humour fair enough, ask yourself who they're on the lookout for these days and you might get a better understanding of why some of them use jokes of that ilk to get them through


Ther have been racist incidents in the police force but then again they've beaten up just as many white kids...you'll always get a few bad cops but taken as a whole, I'd hate to live in this country without them

Bet the recruitment levels drop in Manchester though...

Well , RedRobbo , one would expect something called , 'The Black Parents Association ' to call the police of a particular station , " a racist army of occupation ". I bet that language did wonders for race relations too !
In the one case you quoted , yes , it was over the top for all those police vehicles and so on to go to the library in question. As far as I know , though , the police get called , "en masse " to an incident , even though it subsequently proves to be unnecessary.
It's significant that this , "racist army of occupation " let the boy go ,without charge ! At the very least you'd have thought they'd have fitted him up somehow or beaten a confession out of him ?
I remember James Anderton too and he did sound arrogant and a bit of a know-all . To put his views at their mildest , he was saying that if men go about having promiscuous , unprotected sex , then Aids will be the result. If he believed that God had anything to do with it , well , so be it.
The methods used in Manchester [ and elsewhere ] since Anderton's day have not been very siuccessful at preventing crime , whatever criticisms can be made of his methods . We read almost every week of gun battles in Manchester , often between groups of black young men , and of various acts of violence. When thse young men committ these acts ,is it to , "get" at racialist police officers , do you think , or a matter of greed and underworld prestige ?

Well said, Fareast, for pointing this out to RedRobbo. You'd think that a Sheffield councillor, who presumably has some say in the allocation of around £227, 000,000 of police funding, would have a more positive view of the police forces. Perhaps his obvious contempt reflects the general view of the left-wing Sheffield Council. If so, then maybe that is why police officers are rarer than red squirrels on the streets of Sheffield.