Do user's of this forum think that bringing back National service/conscription would help combat the yobs that exist in our society .

I was talking about this the other day after watching Bad Lads Army. We both said that we would have quite liked to do National Service just to experience it although dont think I would have been too keen on Conscription.

To answer the question, yes I do think some sort of training of this type would work in a lot of cases of persistant young offenders. I would go further and say that if when leaving school you dont take up further education or job/training then you should have to do a year or so completing a National Service type programme. Maybe then we may address the problem of Young offending before things get serious.


Mat

I don't really think that giving chavs guns and then teaching them how to shoot straight would make the uk a better place.

Originally posted by mat1978
I would go further and say that if when leaving school you dont take up further education or job/training then you should have to do a year or so completing a National Service type programme.

A little while ago now I was speaking to a chap who worked in the MOD. I put the idea of national service to him and asked his opinion. He said that him, and the majority of people at the MOD and armed forces, were totally against it for two reasons:

First of all, the last thing the armed forces wanted was to have to put up with a bunch of unruly kids sent there against their will.

Secondly, in this modern age of warfare, the need for a greater number of soldiers is greatly diminished. The aim of the MOD these days is to have small, fast to deploy, elite army, trained to the hind teeth, which can provide a supporting role in whatever conflict they're sent to. He made the claim that our guys are still the most highly trained and effective soldiers in the world and can do a largely better job than the Americans with a lot less of the kit.

Consequently, whenever there are mutterings about national service and the like within political circles, the civil servants in the MOD quickly hush the offending parties to keep the status quo.

I would support the introduction of some form of National Service 100%

The option of young people doing nothing should not be available. Young people who are in Employment/Training or FE/HE who get into trouble should also face some form of National Service as a punishment.

They will learn respect for others along with self-respect. Bad lad's army is an excellent example of how it should be done - people who have recently retired/left the armed forces could be employed and their skills used to develop young people and would be much more beneficial that sending young offenders to institutions where they are not developed socially or mentally.

A little while ago now I was speaking to a chap who worked in the MOD. I put the idea of national service to him and asked his opinion. He said that him, and the majority of people at the MOD and armed forces, were totally against it for two reasons:

Yeah, I agree this would be the case. But even though you know this, in theory do you think its a good idea??

Was watching a programme the other week on some tribe in Africa where they have rituals when 16 year old boys have thier teeth knocked out - when its all over they become 'Men'. As disturbing as is was it was clearly a proud an important part of the males life. In western society we just evolve into 'Adults' and have no defining moment when we 'become' men or women. Maybe we should send our troubled teens into the middle of the bush, if they come back they will be Men if not then no loss;)

I think bringing back national service is a good idea in combating yobs the discipline in the army would teach them respect if they started on a sargeant or staff sargeant thy would be sorry. This would teach them respect for others and self respect

See how many Asians would kick off about that.

National Service ended 40 odd years ago ....... how many more "back to the 1950's" threads do we need on this site.........read the Daily Mail if you want that sort of mentality.

I always thought it took courage to go fight for your country

What courage have those cowardly little pricks ever shown?

What we gonna do.....send them to a war torn country so they can throw bricks at foreign pensioners?

I take it everybody on this thread who is wanting people to do National Service has done it themselves.......................

A conscript army of young lads (and lasses!) who are disruptive and anti-social is not what the forces need. The armed services want volunteers, who wish to be trained as a fighting force and perhaps also learn a trade at the same time.

If you want to do something about delinquents, then national service in the army is not the answer.:nono:

I wasn't around in the 50's, so i'm not 'harking back to past times'. What I want to see is a firm, positive step that will bring these young hooligans back from the brink.

I stongly believe that there is good in everybody, I am not a 'namby pamby liberal' though. Young people who have lacked boundries, who have not had firm parental guidance, and who have not learned what being a respectable member of society means - need help. We, the general public need help.

I have not done national service, but if I was called to do it I would do. My parents brought me up in a strict environment, I don't think I suffered for that, I think I am a better person for knowing the boudries, for knowing right from wrong, for knowing if I stepped out of line and punishment from school/police etc would be nothing compared to the punishment I would get at home.

I most certainly do not condone child abuse, what I do condone is young people being taught right from wrong, self respect and respect for others. If the only way this can be taught is in 'some kind of National Service type environment' then so be it. I am sure if you speak to some of those young people on Bad Lads Army you would realise that it was the harsh discipline that they needed to put them on the straight road.

I am not talking about these young people being part of the regular army - they are trained by ex-forces in a similar environment. Some of them, at the end of it, may choose to join the regular army - and that is a big bonus for the army as they will already be part way there in terms of training etc.

Does anyone who does not agree with a similar type of solution have a better idea?

I don't think National Service is the answer . Why should we lumber our Armed Forces with a bunch of anti-Socail , pig-ignorant sickos ? The army has enough on its hands already.
The National Service of pre 1960 was done by the general population , not just the scum.
However , our attempts , using , "soft " methods , over the past 30-40 years , has failed spectacularly so , what can be done ?
Well , during National Service times [ and perhaps still today ?] , the Army had what were nick-named , "Glasshouses " , for those soldiers who had committed serious offences of various kinds. There was a well known one at Shepton Mallet and one at Aldershot.These were extremely tough places , reputedly much stricter in every way than ordinary prisons.
Surely , a scheme of re-introducing places similar to the Glasshouses could be introduced with no luxuries of any description and no date of release until the authorities were satisfied that a thug had learned his /her lesson.
The cost ? Well , considering what thuggery costs us now , Society might even make a profit on setting scumbags to work and if it did cost money , well , we manage to find it for almost everything else , these days.
But , please , let's not infect the army with these Deadheads !

Hels,

Would your version of National Service be compulsory to all (say) 17 - 18 year olds?

If not - how would you decide who did NS and who didn't?

Are we talking here of the "state" as being the employer of the last resort - eg. if a kid leaving school can't get a "proper" job then instead of getting "dole" then they should have to do something useful - eg gardening for OAP's, cleaning the streets.

I can agree with that.

Hi Longcol

I suppose the State would be the 'employer'. As it is, if young people don't work or do training/FE/HE I'm not sure if they are aged 16-18 how much (or if) they get in benefits but every young person should be doing something 'constructive'. If they don't learn at this age, when are they going to learn?

We must have some way of encouraging young people to be responsible and have respect for themselves and others.

I suppose Bad Lads Army had quite a big impression on me, some of them didn't last the time, but some of those that did made huge leaps in terms of how they felt about themselves and others. Some of them joined up for the regular army and I think that is a benefit for them and for the army.

Each individual will benefit from different types of intervention and I feel some of the more hardened or most disaffected young people would benefit from the harsh realities that a form of national service offers. It gives them the structure that they may not have had before and if it only benefits 30% of the young people, then that's 30% more than we currently see.

Of course, as I have said earlier, the majority of young people do not need this type of intervention, it is the minority. But those minority still have something to offer society and I feel it is our duty as an inclusive society to find some way of tapping into that potential. Harsh though it may seem to some.

My dad was called up for National Service, he's talked a lot about it and so, though I have not been through it myself I do have some understanding. Personally, I wanted to join the army but was too young when I left school, then when I went back much later I was told I was too old :o

I agree with ADC-28. My other half was army trained and he says the last thing the army needs is a load of beligerent youth,s that don't want to be there. The army is our first line of defence not a load of trained "nannies".
In the days of National Service it was an accepted thing and all the youngsters knew it was going to happen. They also had different attitudes to the youth of today. There were no benefit payments for those that chose to leave school and take to their beds........that's assuming they even bothered with school to start with!
However......something along the lines of "national service" is needed. Perhaps the word we are all avoiding is Boot Camps?
For some of em the salt mines would not go amiss!!
Seriously I do think that the time has come to make up the minds of our youth. They have been given free reign to plan their own futures. Many of them have made sensible decisions and gone onto higher education etc, but there is also a large elemant that have no intentions of either higher ed. or working for a living. These are the ones that need the decisions making for them. They must realise that spending their time either doing nothing, or doing wrong is just not an option any longer.

"What sets the British Army above the rest is that it is a volunteer army." I think I read that somewhere.

These days the army is subject so much to human rights and anti-bullying if a NCO or such shouts at a conscript they may get into very serious trouble. Yeah right!

Forget the army. Need something more diciplined, and for those who get out of hand - hmmmm - maybe something even more diciplined - I mean - where do we stop?

The trouble with kids these days starts at home. Parents who do not teach their kids to repect others and have few moral values. It seems that the parents themselves need some sort of initiative to raise their kids in a law abiding, non-desruptive manner. Ah! But thanks to the die hard liberals we are losing more and more parental rights while at the same time being held more and more accountable for the actions of our children.

So - the army is not the answer - what then? We simply going to watch our country decline further and further?
I doubt that telling these morons they are being naughty and not to be naughty again will have much effect.

Dragon

If the recent bombers had been doing National Service they wouldn't have bombed London.

With the trainig they received they would soon realise which side their bread was buttered and where their futures were.

In my opinion it would be make your mind up time for them or anyone else who were living with mixed loyalties particularly if they had to serve in Afganistan or Iraq.

What do any other forumers think about this point of view?


Happy Days

Originally posted by PopT
If the recent bombers had been doing National Service they wouldn't have bombed London.

No, they would have made off with a truckload of military hardware instead.

I think your point of view is quite simplistic.

Originally posted by maxwell
Do user's of this forum think that bringing back National service/conscription would help combat the yobs that exist in our society .

I do agree, it will show just how tough some really are, the ones that mug old ladies that canyt fight back put them up against someone of their own calibre watch em cry

Originally posted by rothschild

For some of em the salt mines would not go amiss!!


Great idea!

Parent to unruly child: You better behave or you will be sent off to work in the salt mines.

I think were getting off the point abit here and its turning into another Express versus Guardian argument. Im as Liberal as they come but I think that somwthing needs to be done about anti social behaviour and young offending. I cant seem the harm (in theory - I know its much more difficult in practice) in instilling some kind of discipline and respect for authority in those young men and women who refuse to take responsibilty for their actions.

definitely.

I think I'd have been more succesful in life if I'd gone through it.

It teaches you to be self-sufficient, discipline, puntuality, respect, hard work, team work etc etc.

It would also get a grwoning population slimmer and healthier and fitter.

In Germany they do still have I believe National Service. This can be done in either the military, civil defence (voluntary firefighting,disaster relief etc) or they can do overseas development aid in 3rd world countries. The latter two can be done by for instance concientious objectors. I think that the same applies in Israel too.

The points raised about the current needs of the British armed forces ie they don't need hordes of people sic cannon fodder like the old days are true and they rely these days on totally dedicated and trained professionals. Therefore to train some of the scumbags would be an unnecessary burden on them.

The other two options offered by the Germans though could be of some use and perhaps teach some of them the discipline and respect that's involved in being a decent human being. Once they've learnt that they could perhaps go back home and pass it on to their parents. However assuming that National service would start at 17 or 18 years old, what would be the benefit with kids as young as 10 that are currently causing mayhem in parts of this country?

One other note about military National Service, from memory I think I read that the Kray's did it back in the 50's so perhaps it's not a good idea to put kids in uniforms and teach them how to kill.

Originally posted by daverity
In Germany they do still have I believe National Service. This can be done in either the military, civil defence (voluntary firefighting,disaster relief etc) or they can do overseas development aid in 3rd world countries. The latter two can be done by for instance concientious objectors. I think that the same applies in Israel too.

The points raised about the current needs of the British armed forces ie they don't need hordes of people sic cannon fodder like the old days are true and they rely these days on totally dedicated and trained professionals. Therefore to train some of the scumbags would be an unnecessary burden on them.

The other two options offered by the Germans though could be of some use and perhaps teach some of them the discipline and respect that's involved in being a decent human being. Once they've learnt that they could perhaps go back home and pass it on to their parents. However assuming that National service would start at 17 or 18 years old, what would be the benefit with kids as young as 10 that are currently causing mayhem in parts of this country?

One other note about military National Service, from memory I think I read that the Kray's did it back in the 50's so perhaps it's not a good idea to put kids in uniforms and teach them how to kill.

also they could do it on ebvironmental projects. cleaning out rivers and the like. something productive.

Originally posted by robbie
also they could do it on ebvironmental projects. cleaning out rivers and the like. something productive.

Precisely :thumbsup: