I'm wondering what everyone on here thinks about animals in circuses. I object to the larger exotics such as elephants, lions, tigers, etc but have no problem with horses, birds and dogs as I feel that these can be looked after quite well in a travelling environment and the ones I've seen look in better condition and even happier than my own horse who is a very spoilt and much loved family pet.

The reason I ask is that I decided to take my daughter to a circus that is in my local area for the week and was accosted by the usual protesters (I did expect it of course but it still bugged me a bit). Now I have no problem at all with them, I actually in part admire their intentions, I just feel they're looking in the wrong direction a bit.

I actually spoke to one of them after he acussed me of not caring that these animals are kept in horrendous conditions - I'd normally walk away but for some reason his comment really got my goat up this time. He gave me some "facts" about circus horses getting loose on motorways etc and I'm pretty sure he is very mistaken on that one as I recall reading that the majority of cases of horses loose on motorways have been privately owned horses kept at livery where the field did not have adequate fencing.

I can't help feeling that instead of trying to take all the joy out of the circus they should focus more on putting pressure on livery yards to ensure that fencing is adequate and the horses are kept in decent conditions. After all, most circuses that still keep animals regularly consent to inspections from the RSPCA and now use humane methods of training, I've even seen Parrelli used on a couple of occassions...

Sorry for the long post, was just wondering what everyone else thought on the matter.

i disagree.. i did my animal care-managment course at college and saw some things involved in circuses that will NEVER leave my mind....its hurrendous...thers just no need to involve animals in entertainment like that...every training method within events like this has its quirks believe me...

In theory, I have no problem with it (obviously don't like to see the animals that should be wild up there, but like you say the captive/domestic animals I'm 'ok' with).
In theory the stimulation these animals get should be fantastic and, unlike many pet dogs, horses etc. I doubt they're very often bored.
These animals are the circus' lifeline, they're bread and butter so of course, they must be well taken care of.

However, I do not know enough to know that the above is not counteracted by stress levels and aversive training.
I know that in days of old, traditional avoidance based methods of training were used and although I know there are a few who are working with positive methods and even clicker training nowadays, I strongly suspect the majority still use methods that inflict pain and teach the animal that in order to avoid the strong aversive, he must perform a certain trick.

I also strongly doubt that the animals get enough rest - although, looking at them you would think they did. Perhaps it's just that I rarely go to see them and have seen a few good ones. Animals need, just like humans, the chance to recooperate after a big event and often can't handle the same amount of stimulation as humans.

Police sniffer dogs are changed so often and the dog (who still wants to work!) is put away before he becomes too tired or too stressed to ensure their health - I would like to think that at least some circuses bear this in mind and switch animals in order to ensure they rest, but I doubt many do.

Re: The protestors - fair do, for them to voice their opinion but I do think sometimes they go too far and don't fully understand the circumstances. I was at Crufts this year with my dog. We were not showing (although she has shown in the past), I was there in a wheelchair, having managed to get out of hospital just a day before we were due to go, I was still losing blood but was determined to be there as we were entered into the Friends for Life competition and this was our day - her chance to shine (which she did!) and my chance to show the world what she'd done for me.
The Crufts team looked after us fantastically, ensured I was ok, ensured she wasn't stressed, had enough water etc. because we were under lights in the main arena (as they did with all the dogs in the group) and made us feel like royalty.

During the day, we went into the show but left again for me to get some rest (and of course for Takara to do the same!) and as we came out there was a group of protestors shouting at us about banning crufts etc. Thankfully they were fenced away so they were unable to approach us but whilst it didn't spoil the day, it put a bit of a dampener on it, considering the reasons we were there and how I was already feeling unwell. They didn't know why we were there but they didn't care.

I'm wondering what everyone on here thinks about animals in circuses. I object to the larger exotics such as elephants, lions, tigers, etc but have no problem with horses, birds and dogs as I feel that these can be looked after quite well in a travelling environment and the ones I've seen look in better condition and even happier than my own horse who is a very spoilt and much loved family pet.

The reason I ask is that I decided to take my daughter to a circus that is in my local area for the week and was accosted by the usual protesters (I did expect it of course but it still bugged me a bit). Now I have no problem at all with them, I actually in part admire their intentions, I just feel they're looking in the wrong direction a bit.

I actually spoke to one of them after he acussed me of not caring that these animals are kept in horrendous conditions - I'd normally walk away but for some reason his comment really got my goat up this time. He gave me some "facts" about circus horses getting loose on motorways etc and I'm pretty sure he is very mistaken on that one as I recall reading that the majority of cases of horses loose on motorways have been privately owned horses kept at livery where the field did not have adequate fencing.

I can't help feeling that instead of trying to take all the joy out of the circus they should focus more on putting pressure on livery yards to ensure that fencing is adequate and the horses are kept in decent conditions. After all, most circuses that still keep animals regularly consent to inspections from the RSPCA and now use humane methods of training, I've even seen Parrelli used on a couple of occassions...

Sorry for the long post, was just wondering what everyone else thought on the matter.

I've bolded the bits with which I take issue. It may be your perception that the demonstrators only complain about circus animals and their mistreatment. However, the reality is that animal rights protesters generally have a wide portfolio of issues against which they complain.

Whilst collecting for animal charities on Fargate I've been accused of being single-minded and why don't I put the same amount of effort into supporting humans. Not once was I asked whether or not I did actually put in the same amount of effort.

My point is that compassion is not a tap you can turn off. If you care about animals, or humans, you don't just concentrate on one but unfortunately that's the public perception.

Rant over.

I dont agree with any animal performing for public entertainment in circus's. Circus's can be exciting and entertaining with people performing. There is no need to have animals there at all. I will never entertain any circus which has animals in it on principle.

As far as the prevalence of the avoidance methods of training, I have no doubt at all that some circuses still use such training methods however I don't believe that this in itself is cruel. Before people jump on my back I'll explain a little, the way I have been taught to train my horse is that you should make it easier and more fun for them to do as you're asking than for them not to - essentially this means that one option is better than the other therefore they are avoiding what they consider as the worst option. I'm not suggesting that the worst option should involve cruelty of any kind, infact it should be that the worst option is simply no reward and the best option is treats, affection, whatever. From some people's previous posts I believe the same method is used with dogs, reward the correct behaviour but do not react to any bad in order to avoid the association of negative behaviour with getting attention. Some circuses do this and do it properly and you can see it in the way the trainers and performers handle the animals - especially the horses. As I've mentioned before, I've seen the Parelli technique and Natural Horsemanship used in every circus I've visited, although that may be because I research the shows and the companies before hand and find out about their animal management and whether they are regularly visited and approved by the RSPCA.

I also know that many of the better circuses actually do a 2 year rotation, they tour for a year then take another year off in order to give the animals a break and also work on developing the show for the next year, they'll then start to gradually introduce this to the animals. After all, these are working animals and most of them - like the police dogs mentioned above - get bored if they're out of work for a long period with nothing to do (same as my horse when he's on box rest) so starting training for the next years show breaks the monotany a little bit and keeps their minds occupied as well as their bodies.

All I'm thinking really is that the "facts" given to me by the protester at the circus were flawed and it just seems a shame that they're tarring every single act involving animals with the same brush. Much in the same way as saying every unemployed person is a stupid and lazy layabout for example - if anyone dared to state such a thing as fact there would be an outcry as it is a horrible generalisation with no basis in truth whatsoever.

Sorry, I hope I've put this across without being unclear or offensive, sometimes its a little difficult gathering my thoughts together while waiting for my hypo treatment to kick in (yes, I am blaming my diabetes if I've muddled this up).

Like Gemima, I wouldn't go to a circus which had animals on principle. For every one with good standards of care and training there must be half a dozen which make life hell for the animals and as an audience member we just aren't able to work out which is which and which should not be receiving audience takings to continue their practises.

I also object to choreographed shows involving animals of all types.

If you go to a really good aquarium, any shows they do put on are done only when the seals/dolphins/orcas/belugas are physically well and feel like doing the show, and the show is not choreographed by the trainers. There's no force on the animals to do the show, no aversives, the toys and training equipment are available full time and the 'tricks' are only done if they want to do them (which they often do as they do seem to enjoy showing off and getting the applause and the laughs). The same amount of food, attention and positive strokes are offered whether they do the 'tricks' or not, or whether they put on any show for the public or not. Somehow I can't see a circus doing the same, but until they do I'm not prepared to subsidise their training methods.

As far as the prevalence of the avoidance methods of training, I have no doubt at all that some circuses still use such training methods however I don't believe that this in itself is cruel. Before people jump on my back I'll explain a little, the way I have been taught to train my horse is that you should make it easier and more fun for them to do as you're asking than for them not to - essentially this means that one option is better than the other therefore they are avoiding what they consider as the worst option. I'm not suggesting that the worst option should involve cruelty of any kind, infact it should be that the worst option is simply no reward and the best option is treats, affection, whatever. From some people's previous posts I believe the same method is used with dogs, reward the correct behaviour but do not react to any bad in order to avoid the association of negative behaviour with getting attention. Some circuses do this and do it properly and you can see it in the way the trainers and performers handle the animals - especially the horses. As I've mentioned before, I've seen the Parelli technique and Natural Horsemanship used in every circus I've visited, although that may be because I research the shows and the companies before hand and find out about their animal management and whether they are regularly visited and approved by the RSPCA.

I also know that many of the better circuses actually do a 2 year rotation, they tour for a year then take another year off in order to give the animals a break and also work on developing the show for the next year, they'll then start to gradually introduce this to the animals. After all, these are working animals and most of them - like the police dogs mentioned above - get bored if they're out of work for a long period with nothing to do (same as my horse when he's on box rest) so starting training for the next years show breaks the monotany a little bit and keeps their minds occupied as well as their bodies.

All I'm thinking really is that the "facts" given to me by the protester at the circus were flawed and it just seems a shame that they're tarring every single act involving animals with the same brush. Much in the same way as saying every unemployed person is a stupid and lazy layabout for example - if anyone dared to state such a thing as fact there would be an outcry as it is a horrible generalisation with no basis in truth whatsoever.

Sorry, I hope I've put this across without being unclear or offensive, sometimes its a little difficult gathering my thoughts together while waiting for my hypo treatment to kick in (yes, I am blaming my diabetes if I've muddled this up).

The avoidance training I'm talking about is the equivalent of how dog trainers used to (and some sadly still do) train dogs. I mean the equivalent (whatever that is) of dog trainers using choke chains and prong collars, using things like the ear pinch to teach a dog to drop a ball, teaching the dog not to jump up by kneeing it in the chest.

The training you speak of (ie. withholding reinforcement as punishment) is negative punishment - you take away something the animal likes as a punishment.
What I speak of is things like positive punishment - you apply something the animal does not like as a consequence for the wrong behaviour and negative reinforcement - you take away something the animal likes as a reward for the right behaviour (which means applying it until the animal does as you ask) - these are, quite frankly, unnecessary and, in my opinion, cruel.

As for the rest breaks - I'm talking regular breaks.
Yes they get bored if they're not kept busy (like Takara who has not been for a walk yet and is bored stiff!) but they need regular breaks.
Remember that whilst it's fun, it's also stressful - eustress is good stress like the sort of stress you encounter when you perform in a play or go on a really fun rollercoaster. However, this can quickly turn to distress - the sort of stress you experience when you realise this rollercoaster isn't stopping and you want to get off now.

Stress causes the physiology of the body to change - different hormones are released often resulting in aggression, blood is sent to different parts of the body to ensure the animal can escape danger, but in doing so, the supply to major organs and the digestive system is restricted. If this happens on a regular basis without giving the body chance to recover, heal, grow new cells, etc. it results in illness.

My question is, are these animals given enough chance to reduce chances of distress, is the work stopped soon enough for them? Do their bodies get chance to recover before their next show? Etc. etc.

I actually enjoy watching animals performing tricks when you can see that they're enjoying it, they're not stressed and that the right training methods have been used. I think it's great to see them being kept stimulated and the bond it creates between the animal and the handler is fantastic. But I am always very careful about what I support in the way of performing animals.

Like Gemima, I wouldn't go to a circus which had animals on principle. For every one with good standards of care and training there must be half a dozen which make life hell for the animals and as an audience member we just aren't able to work out which is which and which should not be receiving audience takings to continue their practises.

I also object to choreographed shows involving animals of all types.

If you go to a really good aquarium, any shows they do put on are done only when the seals/dolphins/orcas/belugas are physically well and feel like doing the show, and the show is not choreographed by the trainers. There's no force on the animals to do the show, no aversives, the toys and training equipment are available full time and the 'tricks' are only done if they want to do them (which they often do as they do seem to enjoy showing off and getting the applause and the laughs). The same amount of food, attention and positive strokes are offered whether they do the 'tricks' or not, or whether they put on any show for the public or not. Somehow I can't see a circus doing the same, but until they do I'm not prepared to subsidise their training methods.

Exactly that.

Agree with you 1000%.

I also object to choreographed shows involving animals of all types.

If you go to a really good aquarium, any shows they do put on are done only when the seals/dolphins/orcas/belugas are physically well and feel like doing the show, and the show is not choreographed by the trainers. There's no force on the animals to do the show, no aversives, the toys and training equipment are available full time and the 'tricks' are only done if they want to do them (which they often do as they do seem to enjoy showing off and getting the applause and the laughs). The same amount of food, attention and positive strokes are offered whether they do the 'tricks' or not, or whether they put on any show for the public or not. Somehow I can't see a circus doing the same, but until they do I'm not prepared to subsidise their training methods.

Actually, this is how many heelwork to music/canine freestyle trainers work.
"Clicker Training" is actually a method devised by marine mammal trainers - first used with dolphins (only they use a whistle, for obvious reasons). It's the only way you can teach a dolphin that 'that arch as you jumped was really good'. When they're training, they do not get the same amount of reinforcement regardless of whether they get it right or not because otherwise, they wouldn't know what they were doing right or what they were doing wrong.

You say "which they often do as they do seem to enjoy showing off and getting the applause and the laughs", the applause and laughs don't happen if they don't perform - so from what I can see, this is obviously their own choice of reinforcement.

Obviously, when someone takes their dog in a show to canine freestyle or HTM, it has to happen there and then but I've never seen a good trainer take their dog in and the dog not enjoy it.

The thing is, with modern trainers, the dogs know that the worst that can happen is they don't get a treat... there's no reason to worry about performing (which is why the success rate is actually higher, because they're not afraid of getting it wrong) - if they do the wrong step, the trainer appears not to notice - no biggie.

If a good dog trainer got to a show and their dog didn't appear fit or ready to perform, of course they wouldn't force them. They'd end up looking pretty stupid if the dog broke down part way through.. of course, they'd try and of course they withhold the reinforcement until the dog does the trick. But if the dog's not upto it, they don't hold it against the dog.

I agree that it'd be nice to see a chance for animals to perform if they were upto it and if the show doesn't happen, then it doesn't happen. But what we'd actually be talking about would be training up zoo animals wouldn't it. You can't possibly run a circus on the basis of 'if it happens it happens, if it doesn't it doesn't'. It would need to be a visit to the zoo with a show if the animals felt upto it - that's what a sealife centre/aquarium does - the people turn upto see the animals, that's the main part of it - if they do a show then great. Nobody would ever turn upto see a dog and if it does it's routine then yeah great - there's nothing interesting about a regular dog.

hate circuses, full stop...........refuse to go. and saw this today, and i have no sympathy, not even the slightest for the people in this, only the bear
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8320849.stm

I think it's a little naive to imagine that circuses are governed when there are still wild animals being used quite openly in the UK.

http://www.ad-international.org/animals_in_entertainment/go.php?id=249&ssi=10

Whilst it might be suggested that ADI are a rather extremist organisation, it's worth remembering that they were the ones responsible for infiltrating and filming the horrific abuse by the Chipperfields which shocked the world and brought the circus industry to it's knees. Good on them!

I doubt that circus life is any better for non-feral animals just because we believe they are rather more humanised than their once wild counterparts. The animals have to look good and I'm sure they're groomed to within an inch of their life, which would make most of us equine owners drool at achieving, but I think it's important to look beneath the surface. I've seen some amazing feats on horseback at HOYS, British Open etc during demonstrations by internationally acclaimed horsemen, for example Jean-Francois Pignon. It quite literally turns my stomach so see horses performing to cheers whilst their body language is clearly stating that they are peforming under duress. I don't go to any of the major horse events now because they usually have one of these spectacles as a headline act and I actively discouraged people from going to Spirit of the Horse. There is no spirit, they're performing shut-down robots. It puzzles me, in our supposedly enlightened society, how acts like this are invited back time and again.

In an established and content herd environment, the head movement, pinned ears and tail swishing going on in this clip would rarely be seen. The third horse in the line up says it all for me because I'm sure it wasn't a part of the act that he walked forward, shied and shied yet again. And this man is at the top of his game!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13f_aThhPSk

Parelli interested me for a while because the 7 Games looked like a lot of fun but I have to say the tag Parelli "Natural Horsemanship" is a clever marketing ploy. The worst marketing video I've ever seen was a Parelli loading one where the terrified horse was repeatedly hit in the face with the "carrot stick"!

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/nature/dying-to-make-us-happy-the-bloody-truth-behind-the-dolphinarium-1799837.html

I've just read the comments about aquarium shows with interest. I read the above article just over a week ago and I will NEVER be going to one of those shows or parks.

Thought it might be of interest.