If 2 dogs get into a fight in a local park. Both off lead. If both get injured who is responsible. I would assume its for each owner to pay their own vet bills.
When dogs fight I dont think you can say 'well he/she started it' cos dogs are dogs and if both are off lead then both owners take that risk.

What do you think?

dogs should not be off lead in a public place, i know most of us will at some point have done this but its our responsabillity to insure there is no chance of them endangering anothers (human or animal) life or wellbeing

I don't see why dogs shouldn't be offlead in a park pets@home??? Mine regularly is (the senile one stays on the lead because he has his moments and is unreliable mainly due to not hearing me or not recognising me occassionally).

To the OP: I think trying to find a party to blame in this instance is useless. Not all dogs get on, granted most dog fights don't result in injury as most dogs are able to use a very ritualised communication process and one will diffuse the situation usually.

Besides which it's sometimes not as simple as 'he/she started it' because you don't know what signals each dog was giving off before the first 'blow was thrown' so to speak.

It's impossible for us to see all the signals they give off and unlikely, when not expecting a fight, to see the ones that we would normally see if we were looking for them.

I can see why you (you being anyone in general not you) would blame the other party if their dog had come over and full on attacked your dog whilst your dog didn't retaliate and only one was injured but in the case where they actually got in a fight and there was no obvious starter point, I'd say some dogs don't get on (just like people) and to expect them to get along with every other canine they see is ridiculous.

any dog which is off lead that gets into a fight with another dog is the responsibility of the owner.
if both dogs are off lead then both owners are to blame. if one dog is on lead and the other is off then the off lead owner is to blame.

I think the responsbility lies with the owner whose dog started or provoked the fight.

The simple fact that a dog is not the least aggressive and gets on very well with other dogs doesn't necessarily mean that he won't react and try to defend himself when attacked or just harrassed by another, usually a strange dog who has zero social skills. Unfortunatelly it happened to my dog many times and I don't blame him for his reactions and not at all feel responsible myself. In my book it's clearly the owner's responsibility to socialize the dog and teach him how to meet, interact and play with other dogs.

I also think that it would be very sad if we couldn't let our dogs running around in parks but imho no one should let their dog off lead without a perfect recall by which I mean immediate return to the owner from any distance on the first call, even if playing with other dogs, chasing squirrels or - god forgive me - fighting.

WW

any dog which is off lead that gets into a fight with another dog is the responsibility of the owner.
if both dogs are off lead then both owners are to blame. if one dog is on lead and the other is off then the off lead owner is to blame.

I would go as far as to say 'not under control'

A dog on a flexi lead or a dog strong enough to drag it's owner whilst on the lead could get to my offlead dog (even if she didn't approach it) to attack her.

A woman was recently dragged by her large breed dogs to a small breed dog and the dogs killed it. So I think control is a better way of judging it than on lead.

Wilder Wine - I agree you should have strong recall before allowing your dog offlead, however - no dog is 100% predictable and if it is frightened and panicked it is always possible that the recall could disintegrate to a degree.

I don't see why dogs shouldn't be offlead in a park pets@home??? Mine regularly is (the senile one stays on the lead because he has his moments and is unreliable mainly due to not hearing me or not recognising me occassionally).
It may defecate without you noticing and you might not clean it up.
Dogs occasionally attack people, other dogs etc.
It might run off.
Quite a few people have phobias of dogs. I've seen one person suffer really badly from a phobia of dogs before.

I've let dogs off and would again, tbh I wouldn't even bother cleaning up after the dog. I like dogs a lot, but I wouldn't have one as I wouldn't be a very responsible owner.

I think there should be dog free parks, or at least dog free sections, for the people with phobias of dogs, but to keep the grass free of poo more than owt else.

Wilder Wine - I agree you should have strong recall before allowing your dog offlead, however - no dog is 100% predictable and if it is frightened and panicked it is always possible that the recall could disintegrate to a degree.

Very true and I wish these rare occasions were the only cases when otherwise reliable dogs fail to perform a perfect recall, but it's not what you normally see in parks. It's rather the owner trying to call or catch the dog who is totally ignorant and going happily after his own business.

My response in red:

It may defecate without you noticing and you might not clean it up. Only if you're not watching your dog, in which case you ought to be.
Dogs occasionally attack people, other dogs etc. Not well socialised, well trained and good tempered dogs. If your dog occasionally attacks people then yes, it should be on a lead.
It might run off. Only if the recall is poor and you're not watching it.
Quite a few people have phobias of dogs. I've seen one person suffer really badly from a phobia of dogs before. I met someone once in a park with a phobia of dogs. Because I watch my dogs and I watch out for other people and other dogs, I could tell straight away that she was uncomfortable with my dogs and called them to me. They didn't approach her, she didn't need to panic.

I've let dogs off and would again, tbh I wouldn't even bother cleaning up after the dog. I like dogs a lot, but I wouldn't have one as I wouldn't be a very responsible owner.

I think there should be dog free parks, or at least dog free sections, for the people with phobias of dogs, but to keep the grass free of poo more than owt else. There are parks that dogs must be kept onlead in. I'm pretty sure there is a list on the council website somewhere.

Don't get me wrong, I've already said dogs are not 100% predictable no matter how well trained and occasionally accidents (running off, or missing a poo) may happen. But to keep a dog onlead the entire time just in case is rather silly imo.

I once saw someone walking their dog and not watching it and the dog did a whoopsie. I called over and told him and he thanked me and went to pick it up. I would hope that if I were to miss my dog defecating in a park, and someone saw it, they would inform me rather than just grumbling about me under their breath so that I could actually do something about it.

Studies have also shown that dogs who are not allowed to run free or interact with other dogs have more stress points (and are therefore more likely to react badly to a stimulus) than dogs who are allowed to run free and interact with other dogs.

Very true and I wish these rare occasions were the only cases when otherwise reliable dogs fail to perform a perfect recall, but it's not what you normally see in parks. It's rather the owner trying to call or catch the dog who is totally ignorant and going happily after his own business.

Yep... and I can't honestly say it's never happened to me either! Thankfully we've got past that stage but I can still tell when my youngster is having 'one of those days' and if she looks far too preoccupied to listen to me, she stays on her lead until I know I can trust her!

Unfortunately, for young dogs or those that have not long since learned recall there are still distractions that the owner is unaware of until they happen.

I think it's the owners you see regularly, the same ones trying to catch/call their dog that are the problem ones... as they obviously continue to allow their dog offlead knowing it won't come back and the dog is only learning to strengthen that 'ignorant' behaviour because it's self reinforcing.

When I meet someone I've not met before and they apologise for their dog approaching or can't call their dog back, I don't judge because it maybe a one off - and hopefully is. It's only when I see the same dogs doing it or the same owners allowing their dogs to approach my elderly, anxious and dog-unfriendly dog that it begins to wind me up!

I would go as far as to say 'not under control'

A dog on a flexi lead or a dog strong enough to drag it's owner whilst on the lead could get to my offlead dog (even if she didn't approach it) to attack her.

A woman was recently dragged by her large breed dogs to a small breed dog and the dogs killed it. So I think control is a better way of judging it than on lead.

Wilder Wine - I agree you should have strong recall before allowing your dog offlead, however - no dog is 100% predictable and if it is frightened and panicked it is always possible that the recall could disintegrate to a degree.

Then the dog may aswell not be on a lead.

I don't see why dogs shouldn't be offlead in a park pets@home??? Mine regularly is (the senile one stays on the lead because he has his moments and is unreliable mainly due to not hearing me or not recognising me occassionally).

To the OP: I think trying to find a party to blame in this instance is useless. Not all dogs get on, granted most dog fights don't result in injury as most dogs are able to use a very ritualised communication process and one will diffuse the situation usually.

Besides which it's sometimes not as simple as 'he/she started it' because you don't know what signals each dog was giving off before the first 'blow was thrown' so to speak.

It's impossible for us to see all the signals they give off and unlikely, when not expecting a fight, to see the ones that we would normally see if we were looking for them.

I can see why you (you being anyone in general not you) would blame the other party if their dog had come over and full on attacked your dog whilst your dog didn't retaliate and only one was injured but in the case where they actually got in a fight and there was no obvious starter point, I'd say some dogs don't get on (just like people) and to expect them to get along with every other canine they see is ridiculous.

Hi lotti ,as far as i was aware i was just stating the law maybe im wrong ,but think if everyone kept their dog on lead then you wouldnt have threads like MY DOGS BEEN ATTACKED BY A STAFFY OR ROTTI OR ANY OTHER DOG .You would also not have threads like my dog was on lead & the other dog just ran up &attacked them, If people were responsable and considerate there would be no problem but its not an ideal world we live in ,and theres dogs that have attacked & dogs that have been attacked where having had it on lead wouldnt have happend ,may i add that some of mine have been walked off lead but the first sight of another dog they get put on lead i think its called respect for others . just my opinion lolxxxxxxxxxxx

That's my point though Lyndix.

I'm not talking about something that is only conceivable and wouldn't really happen... a local toy breed dog was killed by two large breed dogs that were leashed but managed to drag the owner.

So these onlead dogs were still more dangerous than most offlead dogs. But, if it was the fault of the offlead dog's owner then that would mean it was the toy breed's owner who was at fault.

There are a lot of dogs who are under fantastic control (I'll never say 100%) offlead, there are also onlead dogs who are under 'ok' control, but they could still be less controlled than an offlead dog.

Am I making any sense??

Hi lotti ,as far as i was aware i was just stating the law maybe im wrong ,but think if everyone kept their dog on lead then you wouldnt have threads like MY DOGS BEEN ATTACKED BY A STAFFY OR ROTTI OR ANY OTHER DOG .You would also not have threads like my dog was on lead & the other dog just ran up &attacked them, If people were responsable and considerate there would be no problem but its not an ideal world we live in ,and theres dogs that have attacked & dogs that have been attacked where having had it on lead wouldnt have happend ,may i add that some of mine have been walked off lead but the first sight of another dog they get put on lead i think its called respect for others . just my opinion lolxxxxxxxxxxx

The law states that dogs must be 'under control' in a public place - not on a lead. It's local council rules that decide which parks they are allowed offlead in.

Whilst what you say is true regarding there are things that happen that wouldn't happen if the dog had been on a lead, there are also situations in which a lead wouldn't have made a difference.

I can't agree, I think it depends on the dog. I won't let mine approach dogs onlead, or a dog that looks nervy or just not wanting to say hello but unless she's having 'one of those days' I don't put her onlead to pass another dog. I just call her to me, and keep her attention.
Some dogs, don't react the same and would have to be leashed, however if my dog is leashed and we see a dog approaching her I will actually allow her offlead to greet the other dog. She is far happier greeting other dogs when not restricted by a lead and it allows for a much more natural interaction.

I've also known dogs form very negative associations with other dogs because everytime they see one, their owner clips on the lead and their freedom to run is stopped.

Well socialised dogs speak the lingo - they know how to be polite, or they will get told off. Most, well socialised dogs know how to say 'get out of my face' without mauling the other dog and actually most of what you hear of 'attacks' are dogs saying 'leave me alone now' and the other dog knows that, they diffuse the situation with an appeasement gesture (which looks like they're cowering/hurt/being pinned) and it only enforces the owner idea that the dog has been attacked.

I'm not one for 'let the dogs sort it out' because you don't know the other dog and it's temperament or whether it understands normal communication but I do think we humans take the choice away from our dogs far too often.

Dogs are an intelligent species, they know how to interact and they need choices. I find it completely unfair that they shouldn't be allowed to socialise with each other and that we expect their behaviour to be 100% friendly 100% of the time. I'm yet to meet a human being like this - and if you knew someone like this you wouldn't find it normal - so why do we expect it from dogs??

I'm not saying let them loose to fight, I'm just saying give them credit where it's due! Of course I call mine away from dogs that don't want to say hello but generally, she's already sussed it for herself and had already decided not to bother it.

thankyou for putting me straight on the law (rather you slapped my legs though lol) when it comes to it if everyone was responsable and considerate this post wouldnt exist,i love to see dogs off lead playing , but can you imagine peoples faces if they met me with mine on a walk off lead ,4 staffs ,american bulldog ,,two b bulldog bullmastif sharpi,springer,&^ retriever, oh nearly forgot ebt , ceaser eat your heart out lol

Thanks.

I was thinking the same as most. Each owner is responsible.

Pets@home - the only thing that would concern me if I saw you with all of yours offlead is that that is a lot of dogs to control altogether. I personally don't think I would want to walk more than 3 offlead... because I feel that's the most I could cope with to keep an eye on them all the time.

However - Takara's face would tell a different story! :lol:

She only has to see the English Mastiff that the Critter Sitter owns and, despite him being a gorgeous, sloppy, friendly dog, she is ready to head back to the car!

I have to coax her into coming with me and as she passes him her tail is between her legs and her head hung low!

I think she'd go into meltdown if she saw your lot, but that would be the same even if they were on leads ;)

pmsl,lotti

my dogs are virtualy always off lead, NOW, but back in the day of the new dog she was always on lead until i knew her propperly and other dogs, now ive been heere a year i know mainly most of the dogs and my dog knows where to go ect and also she is 100percent nicer than she was when i first got her, if they where off lead and they had a fight with another dog off lead or even on lead, to me if its that dog what attacks then it should be dealt with, just liek if mine attacked then id deal with her, its about being responsible