I have an application form to fill in. Unfortunately it has that horrible little box that says "reason for leaving"

I got dismissed from a job I had held for 20 years. I have had two jobs since then, neither anything to do with the one I got sacked from. The job I want is totally different as well - in fact it would be a chance to start a whole new career.

Any suggestions on what to put in that box?

a difficult one...
Why did you get sacked?

The company isn't allowed to give out any information regarding you or your work history, so if you put that resigned for personal reasons then it's unlikely to be contradicted. You may be asked in an interview what the personal reason was though.

how about saying "change of career" if its a different area you've moved into? - not the whole truth but not a complete lie!!

What happened to the job you moved to after that one?

Could you say that you were offered the opportunity to take up a new position elsewhere (the one after you were sacked) but it proved to be not what you'd been promised?

But I agree with Cyclone, a lot depends on why you were dismissed.....were you 'asked to leave' or sacked for alleged dishonesty/gross misconduct etc?

IMO, they ARE allowed to put the reasons for your dismissal. IMO what they are NOT allowed to say is anything that isn't true. IMO, they have to be honest if the reference asks them to comment on if they know any reason why you shouldn't be taken on for their position. Thus, if a person has been dismissed for say stealing (not commenting on you personally, you understand) if they fail to reveal that as a reason for dismissing that person and the person subsequently goes on to do it again in the new job, the new employers have comeback on the old ones for not disclosing the truth. *

*Edit - what the old employers CAN do (and do do, sometimes) is decline to comment on the reference.


However, I stand to be corrected - I'm no expert on employment law/reference etc.

Hmmmm, I'd be more careful with your form than your thread titles ;)

I thought you'd been sacked for filling the form in at your current desk :roll:

Sorry I'm not being much help, but if you PM me your circumstances I can help you find a carefully phrased answer :thumbsup:

How long ago did the firing take place?

If it's a while back then people might not care less - have to say that when I'm looking at someone's application form the main reason I might not interview them on 'leaving jobs' grounds is if they've had a lot of jobs in a short time or have ticked the box that refers to 'undischarged criminal record'.

If you've had those two other jobs in a reasonably short time then you may find that the prospective employers care more about that.

You could get away with just putting 'Personal reasons' or 'Disagreed with company policy' or something similar, but be prepared to answer the question if you get an interview. Whether you lie or not is then up to you.

Looking at it from an employer's point of view, I'd probably be quite keen to know WHY you left for either of these reasons, and have seen both of these used on application forms as euphemisms for 'I was fired'.

Joe

If it's any help, employers aren't really interested in your past, just whether you can do the job they're interviewing you for. If they ask at interview, tell them it was for personal reasons, in my experience they really won't care why as long as you can prove you can do THEIR job.

just don't mention it! How about saying you were layed off?

The job I got immediately after being sacked was a temporary contract, packing quiches. That lasted six months and since they contacted me not long after to find out if I would become a permanent member of staff, I assume I would get a good reference there.

The job after that, which has lasted almost three years so far, is as an optical assistant. That is a bit of a career reversion, since I trained as a Dispensing Optician 25 years ago. In fact, I changed to Medical Secretary as a result of failing part of my finals.

The one I want to go after is as a Craft Tutor, since I have now become a registered Parchment Craft Teacher.

I didn't thieve, murder or do harm to get sacked. I had a very lengthy (1 year) disciplinary hearing which had to do with doing private work in NHS time (I wish - I spent every weekend typing the darned stuff) and failing to follow correct procedures in reporting a problem

Are you looking for a job now?

I dissagree with Max, employers are interested in your past, past performance is mainly what emplyers can judge a candidate on at the application stage.

Put something non-descript on the application, but tell the truth if you get an interview. Employers like honesty, and if I was interviewing you I'd be more inclined to offer a job to you if you had been brutally honest about past mistakes.

Originally posted by Kristian
Put something non-descript on the application, but tell the truth if you get an interview. Employers like honesty, and if I was interviewing you I'd be more inclined to offer a job to you if you had been brutally honest about past mistakes.

Absolutely agree.

All you have to say (at the interview) is something like "I had a very lengthy (1 year) disciplinary hearing which had to do with doing private work in NHS time (I wish - I spent every weekend typing the darned stuff) and failing to follow correct procedures in reporting a problem" :) and any comments that your old employer make on the reference will make complete sense to your prospective employer.

Never forget that the two of them can have an 'off the record' conversation about you, in which the truth can be said but not officially. If you've told the truth (albeit as you see it, but that's all you can do and is to be expected) then you can't be caught out.

A prospective employer wouldn't be contacting the previous employer if they weren't hoping to employ you, so they will be hoping that your reference checks out to fit what you've said about it all.

if it was a while ago just put.... to pursue new career, as long as you aren't going to them for a reference there really is no issue.............................unless you future employer is reading this thread, lol

Honesty at interview is the best policy, can you ask other past employers for written references and send these off with the application form?

Originally posted by Debk
Honesty at interview is the best policy, can you ask other past employers for written references and send these off with the application form?

Open references are generally not accepted these days Debk; too much potential for fraud. :rolleyes:

Can you not put "contract terminated"?

Kristian, I am a professional recruiter and dissagree, an open reference can be followed up/checked out by the next employer. A good reference from a past employer will always put the candidate in a good light. I have been recruiting for 16 years and always take references on applicants for our client companies. I have only ever had a reference request refused twice. (although I have taken many questionalble ones!)

Originally posted by Debk
Kristian, I am a professional recruiter and dissagree, an open reference can be followed up/checked out by the next employer. A good reference from a past employer will always put the candidate in a good light. I have been recruiting for 16 years and always take references on applicants for our client companies. I have only ever had a reference request refused twice. (although I have taken many questionalble ones!)

In my (admitedly limited) experience, the only time a previous employer furnishes a leaving employee with a piece of paper with a reference on is when the 'good reference' has been agreed as part of the employment being terminated.

ie, there's some 'smoke' there and as a prospective employer I would be suspicious as to what exactly the fire was.

IMO under non-suspicious cicrumstances the employer leaves, and subsequently provides a name at the former company to the prospective employer, who is then free to make contact as he/she sees fit.

However, I'm not a professional recruiter (tho have held roles wherein it was part of my job description to recruit, hence feeling qualified to comment to some degree) so am open to comment on this one! :)

I am looking for a new job. I really want to pursue my craft career but need to work part time to support it, unless I can get a job as a craft tutor. I cannot do that in my current job - Saturdays is an essential day, so I have started job searching and there lies the problem.

If I stay doing retail work, references won't be a real problem but I will have to continue to work Saturdays. If I go back to audio-typing (and it is just typing - I don't want to work as a Secretary again), I run into the reference problem. I cannot pretend I have been off having kids or something equally dishonest because, quite apart from having scruples, it would mean I appear to have no experience at all!

As you can see, I am a bit stuck here. I am knocking on a bit too, so jobs are only going to get harder to get as well.

Just one other thing - the company concerned is the NHS!

If you dont use this employer as a reference then your prospective employers should not be contacting them anyway. you give permission for this to happen by providing referees. So they will go to who-ever you put down and of course you have at least one/two good ones anyway.

Also don't tell a direct lie or try to obviously mislead them. Many applications are held to be part of your contract if you get a job, so if you tell a big fat whopper you will be in breach and if it directly affects the situation even after you've been working for some time it could lose you the job.

There may be an honesty issue if you bring up the NHS problem, since it implies you did other work on their time. May be best to say something reasonably true, such as you wanted a change of direction, were bored, needed something more interesting/demanding/better paid or whatever. Just don't tell a complete lie. Its difficult to get past these events and you need to be diplomatic about it. Once you have two new good referees though your well away. IF they ask directly why you went into food packaging from secretarial work, use genuine answers other than the sacking, ie you were fed up etc and just jumped ship - try and make it sound positive as if you were taking up a challenge and wanted to find new pastures or whatever. HAve a good think about what you would say if you were asked or it came up somehow.

More important think about the other stuff too, like why you want this job, what you will bring to it, what it will do for you, answers to any obvious questions they might ask. They will be far more interested in whether you meet their requirements and are the best for the post than digging up the past unless you lead them there.

Good luck anyway,

As a career counsellor I advised my clients to tell the truth because it can be very messy otherwise. I think this episode should be seen in perspective and you need to feel comfortable about it. Posting on the forum is one way to do so. Perhaps you could speak with friends to get used to speaking about it; you'll be able to guage from their responses how best to modify what you say. The more practiced you are the less discomfort it is likely to cause.

I can see many benefits to being upfront about things because that is an important concern for new employers. I think being candid shows you've learned and are unlikely to do stuff like that with your new employer.

Interviews are a high stress situation; the more you try to hide the more stress you can expect in the interview. I think if you tell the truth you are far more likely to feel comfortable within yourself. You'll feel more relaxed, allow you to be yourself and be in charge of yourself. Interviewers generally sense when things are being hidden which goes against the interviewee.

I think it is unwise to focus on this issue and you need to think of the many good things you have to offer potential employers. I think they are far more likely to respect you for your honesty. It will also show maturity and that you have this in hand.

By the way just because it is the NHS doesnt mean to say they own the world even if they think they do

Hope you manage to work things out successfully and if you want to PM me I might be able to help you with other exercises you could do to help yourself.

I have the same problem, I have just been sacked from work yesterday (04/08/05) and I'm not letting it affect me, there are always ways 'around' this without resorting to lies.

1. If you must fill in the reason for leaving, try putting 'left company due to a 'conflict of interest', you will almost likely get asked what the conflict of interest was and in which case you can explain and put your side of the story.

2. If you have only worked for the company a short time try putting 'X monthly contract terminated'.

3. If you were sacked due to unfair dismissal then just put unfairly dismissed.

4. If you were sacked for gross misconduct it would depend on how severe the misconduct was, if you were sacked due to stealing this ALWAYS will be difficult to get around, you could try putting the truth, but ALWAYS back up what you say with a promise that you have learnt a valuable lesson not to do it again, this will prove you are at least honest and ALWAYS provide a previous/previous reference that can provide you with a good reference, this will prove that you can be trusted, to be honest dont even tell little white lies here if the employer even smells a little white lie, you have no chance, not only are you a thief but a liar as well.

These are just a few ways around the question but I think it's always best to be as honest as possible, if you were sacked it's usually because you did something bad, and the boss had no choice but to sack you, not because you smell or your ugly or something silly, and to any potential employer you could do the same thing again, it's usually best to ALWAYS provide a good working reference to offset the bad, then the employer can make up his own mind, either way dont forget this will not last forever and im sure you will find someone willing to take you on despite what others think of you.

Good luck.

Originally posted by parcher
I have an application form to fill in. Unfortunately it has that horrible little box that says "reason for leaving"

I got dismissed from a job I had held for 20 years. I have had two jobs since then, neither anything to do with the one I got sacked from. The job I want is totally different as well - in fact it would be a chance to start a whole new career.

Any suggestions on what to put in that box?

i got sacked from boots for breaching security rules.....luckily i finished just after xmas so i can put that i was an Xmas temp

Originally posted by Cyclone
The company isn't allowed to give out any information regarding you or your work history, so if you put that resigned for personal reasons then it's unlikely to be contradicted. You may be asked in an interview what the personal reason was though.

This is actually a big myth. Employers can give information about former employees and their work history if they are approached for a reference. References are not covered by Data Protection laws either so the person the reference is about can't even demand to see the reference.

Admittedly some companies do require signed consent from the person the reference is about before they reveal the information to a third party - but not that many places do this and it is not a legal requirement. Some companies have a policy of not giving bad references - which means that if they can't write only good things about someone then they refuse to provide an official reference. However I have found that when companies refuse to do this, you can usually find a manager to tell you over the phone exactly why they won't provide a ref for that person.

If I were you I'd be up front and say you were dismissed. You have obviously held down jobs since then and there is a significant amount of time between the present and the dismissal. The lie isn't worth the risk. It is unlikely they will want to take a reference from this employer - but again some employers are becoming stricter about taking references and it is not unheard of for companies to want to take refs covering the last 5 years. If you lie on the application form and they do take refs then you can kiss the job goodbye. Similarly even if they don't take a ref for this employer, if they find out about it in the future, lying on an application form is usually considered to be gross misconduct and you could face another dismissal situation - and 2 are much harder to explain away than 1!

I agree that honesty is the best policy. Explain the company's reasons for sacking you, then give your side. Don't go do the line of 'they sacked me but they were wrong I was right' more like' they sacked me but in my opinion...', explain what you have learnt and how you plan to move on. I had my contract with a company terminated after I whistleblowed and reported them for various incidents. In their opinion I was a poor team player who deserved to go, in my opinion they hated me for whistleblowing. A lengthy legal case started, during which I applied for other jobs and obviously had to state why I had left my previous job. On the forms I told the truth, said exactly what happened and why I did what I did and what I had learnt from the experience. I did get some interviews this way, but when a company offered me a job though without having to fill out a form, I did not disclose what had happened and now regret this. It is forever in the back of my mind 'do they know what happened' as I know some people at my work have connections to people I used to work with. With the legal case concluded having received an out of court settlement, I was still technically sacked but am gagged from describing exactly how the matter was resolved. I have to live with this 'termination' for the rest of my career, however from speaking to organisations in London I know there are people much worse off, whose careers are destroyed by being sacked. You have to move on and be strong. I have learnt a heck of a lot from what has happened and would hate to think that if I had stayed with the company 30 years down the line I would be thinking 'actually, I hate this, why didn't i move on years ago'. Live and learn.

Well, I hummed and haa-ed so long over this problem that I missed the submission date. Consequently I am back to hunting again.

Although I hate the fact that I was dismissed and I do still get very bitter about it, I do not mind speaking about it. In fact, verbally, it does not seem quite so bad. It is just that when you try to put it in an application form, it sounds horrendous, particularly when you consider that I was in that job for such a long time. After all, logically, one must have at least murdered to get sacked after that time. Equally, it is hard to say that I have learned from the experience. What is there to learn? Seemingly good colleagues can knife you and get away with it? Don't go to your supervisor with problems? Refuse to take on your consultant's private work? Or perhaps, when the union man tells you to say nothing at the hearing, ignore him and put your case?

I know that the NHS aren't everything, but they seem that way when you happen to be a medical secretary!

I agree, sometimes people get sacked for blatant obvious reasons. but other times it is as a result of something else like manager screwing up and passing the buck. I had to report my company, we were outting people's lives at risk by ignoring various issues. Once the company found out I shopped them they tried to turn the whole case around to me, i.e. they stated the issues were not serious and that I displayed poor team work and was attempting to stab my manager in the back. I was called into the office unaware and shouted at by 2 managers,and made to feel 1 foot tall. They poked fun at my qualifications and said that I did not have the power to make decisions like reports to authorities. During the legal case they again said that I was an incredibly poor team player and that my managers were wonderful highly skilled people who made the right decision to terminate my contract. I would love to tell you all which Sheffield company this is but I am gagged from disclosing it. I agree with Parcher that this is incredibly hard to put down on a form. What I have learnt is that I would do the same tomorrow, faced with a member of the public being seriously injured in my care I would call the authorities straight away. I will not stand 1 foot tall and let people push me around, but at the same time I will not be cocky.

Thought everyone would like to know the Guardian published details of an NHS CEO who faked certificates after being pushed to produce evidence of his academic qualifications. Proves that it pays to be honest about these things.

It's one of those things. People do get sacked occasionally - I came bloody close to it at one point for taking too much time off. However, at that point I was close to a nervous breakdown and didn't realise I had post-natal depression.

Doctor recommended a stress-free environment. :) So after taking pills for 6 months and chilling out, I decided to dedicate my time to my family.


As long as you learn from your experiences, that's the main thing.

Interesting thread... As an NHS Fraud Investigator I seem to spend an awful lot of time investigating staff that undertake private work in NHS time. There are few cases that are clear cut though and I wish you well in finding another job.

i have a hearing for Gross Misconduct with my company, i have been suspended for almost a month whilst they were investigating. The nature of the offence is the VOLUME of my internet use (basically i have used the internet too much in work time). The worst thing is all my Manager and work reviews have been excellent and I have achieved all targets I have been set, yet im very worried I will still get sacked as has been made clear in correspondance from the company.

My question is:

1) For a reference can i use a Manager who has now left my former employer ? Or will the new employer require a current employee at my former employer ?

2) Should i be open and honest or just say 'difference of opinion' on application forms/interviews ?

My question is:

1) For a reference can i use a Manager who has now left my former employer ? Or will the new employer require a current employee at my former employer ?

2) Should i be open and honest or just say 'difference of opinion' on application forms/interviews ?

To answer question 1. yes but only as a personal referee. The new employer will usually want to approach your most recent employer.

To answer question 2. yes be honest.

Not good Neil. The first thing I would ask you is are you in a union?

additionally have you had a disciplinary regarding this before?

If you didn't, unless you have been looking at 'naughty internet' or shopping in company time I can't see why this would be gross misconduct and a little harsh IMO.

No I'm not in a Union. I havent had any discipinary hearings before so I'm hoping that will count in my favour.

I have had a few interviews in my suspension just in case I do get fired and am waiting on some final replies. However its the references that could count against me if i do get offered a new job.

Well I gave you my opinion regarding references. :)

Not knowing what sort of work you do its difficult to gauge if this disciplinary is really OTT. Are they saying its affected your work?

Im in Banking and work in the City.

They havent said it has affected my work but that it has broken company policy on acceptable internet/email use. My work has been of a consistently high standard so I'm really hoping that it wont result in a sacking.

Im only 25 and hoping this wont messup my career in the long term.

it has broken company policy on acceptable internet/email use.
It shouldn't affect your career long term, but acceptable internet/email use is a very wide term. Is the policy in writing and do you have a copy? Did you sign anything to say you understood the meaning of acceptable use?

And what exactly were you doing on the net? If you were trading on ebay or downloading porn I could see why they would have a problem. Were you downloading files?

were you warned over excessive use and company policy. if so the consequences could be bad, if not they can't offically do anything to you except advise you it is against policy.

The advice above is very good. Their policy needs to be explicit for this to be a case of gross misconduct, spelling out exactly what is unacceptable, and they really need proof that you were aware this was against company policy, either by the signed confirmation that you have read the policy, or records of you having previously been told about the policy during appraisals etc.

I didnt download anything but I did go on the BBC sports forums and post messages which I now know are expressely forbiddon by the company.

I am aware that I breached company rules but just hope that my otherwise good record and apology will let me get away with a warning.

Were you aware that you were breaching company rules when you actually used the internet though, or is this something you have only become aware of once the disciplinary action was started?

There was a case once where someone was sacked for downloading porn. He actually won his employment tribunal because, although he admitted downloading porn, the company didn't expressley state in their policy that this behaviour could lead to dismissal!

Some of my internet was before and AFTER we had to do a company internet/email interrnet use test.

So i guess the company are within their rights to do what they like becuase i should have been aware of not going on any sort of forums. Its also a top 5 Corporate Bank so i can try play on 'my work has always been top-notch' card and accept whatever I get on the chin. I am sick of worrying about it now.

So you were chatting on the footy forum, knowing you shouldn't have been and got caught.

On your knees Neil, say you are really really really sorry and ask for a chance.

Yep thats all I can do really.

Yep thats all I can do really.

If you're as good as you say you are, you'll be fine :thumbsup:

I put "termination of contact" or something like that.. can't remember now. i got asked about it in an interview, and I just told them the truth. almost 4yrs later & I'm still employed.

As it happens I didn't agree with the sacking - I wanted to take them to employment tribunal but as I'd not been there a year I couldn't - went to citizens advice and allsorts. Told prospective employers that and they agreed!

Some of my internet was before and AFTER we had to do a company internet/email interrnet use test.

So i guess the company are within their rights to do what they like becuase i should have been aware of not going on any sort of forums. Its also a top 5 Corporate Bank so i can try play on 'my work has always been top-notch' card and accept whatever I get on the chin. I am sick of worrying about it now.

But what I'm getting at is that they need to have made this explicit. They need to have told you in no uncertain terms that this kind of use was unacceptable for them to seriously take disciplinary action against you. This test you talk about - what were you told about it at the time? Did they actually tell you that going on forums at work was wrong? If they didn't then it's unfair of them to say you should have known it was wrong.

Companies really have to spell out what is and isn't acceptable use of internet at work, saying something along the lines of "excessive use and/or access to offensive sites" is not enough.

Ive tried applying 4 jobs with the council. On the application form there's a bit which asks "have you ever been dismissed from a company?" of course i had 2 b honest, and as ive never been offered an interview im wondering if thats why.

It would depend on what you were sacked for before. If it was gross misconduct it might have had a bearing but for other reasons they would probably balance it against the strength of your application.

At the moment there are just hundreds of people all applying for the same jobs and I expect there were just other applications which scored more points than yours on that occasion. :(

I was sacked from a job in the 90s recession and I just immediately signed up for temporary work and did that for 6 months on and off. Then I could happily put on my CV 'reasons for leaving last job - temp work.' I was distraught at the time though - my self esteem took a beating.

I remember I was crying whlst standing at a pedestrian crossing and a bloke asked me what was wrong and I told him. He said, don't worry, it happens to almost everyone in their careers and I'd be all right eventually. It didn't seem quite so bad after that.

Try to find ways of wording the reason for leaving that job so that it causes you the least damage possible without lying. Eventually that job will recede into the distant past as you get more work with better evidence for your abilities.

If it's any help, employers aren't really interested in your past, just whether you can do the job they're interviewing you for. If they ask at interview, tell them it was for personal reasons, in my experience they really won't care why as long as you can prove you can do THEIR job.

Of course they are interested in your past! Why would an employer want to employ a new worker if they have previously been sacked for gross misconduct? I'm not sure if you have ever had to employ someone but if so you're asking to get burnt!