Please settle an argument for me - what % do you need for a first and what for a 2:1?

It's been a while since I was at uni and I can't remember to save my life!

60% for a 2:1. i guess

40-50 - 3rd
50-60 - 2:2
60-70 - 2:1
70+ - 1st

I got 68.something which is a little annoying!

That's what I said!

They thought a first was consistently over 90%

bah! Imagine if that were the case! (though a guy I went to uni with DID actually achieve a First at this level!)

I think theres a bit more to it than that

if you for example get 68.5% you can still get a 1st if you got a 1st in 3 or more of the modules you took, or something like that.

Very true Spyro. A friend of mine managed to sneak a 2:1 even though his overall average was only 58%, the little blighter.

Anyway, it's a stupid system. How anyone can differentiate between an essay that's worth 59% and one's that worth 60% is beyond me.

Originally posted by spyro2000
I think theres a bit more to it than that

if you for example get 68.5% you can still get a 1st if you got a 1st in 3 or more of the modules you took, or something like that.

They are calculated by a percentage in a simlar way to the individual modules.

Originally posted by Greenback


Anyway, it's a stupid system. How anyone can differentiate between an essay that's worth 59% and one's that worth 60% is beyond me.

True, but theres got to be a cut off point somewhere aint there?

I got 58% overall last year, so that put me on 2:2 as I only got over a 2:1 in 2 modules, but ive still got my final year to come this year anyway, so much more hard work needed.

I think as a rule of thumb, if you are on a border between two grades at the end of your degree then you undergo a viva to decide which of the two grades you should be awarded.

Originally posted by TracieJC
I think as a rule of thumb, if you are on a border between two grades at the end of your degree then you undergo a viva to decide which of the two grades you should be awarded.

whats a 'viva'?

An oral exam - examiners from other universities are able to ask you a number of questions on various aspects of your degree. If you exhibit a good understanding of the subjects you have studied over the years, then you will generally be awarded the higher grade :)

Originally posted by TracieJC
An oral exam - examiners from other universities are able to ask you a number of questions on various aspects of your degree. If you exhibit a good understanding of the subjects you have studied over the years, then you will generally be awarded the higher grade :)

oooh id definitely fail that then. :(

Originally posted by spyro2000
True, but theres got to be a cut off point somewhere aint there?

I got 58% overall last year, so that put me on 2:2 as I only got over a 2:1 in 2 modules, but ive still got my final year to come this year anyway, so much more hard work needed.

Ah Spyro, I know how you feel, I finished my 2nd year with 59%... but managed to pull it out of the bag in my final year and get 66% overall, you can do it! :clap:

Originally posted by TracieJC
An oral exam - examiners from other universities are able to ask you a number of questions on various aspects of your degree. If you exhibit a good understanding of the subjects you have studied over the years, then you will generally be awarded the higher grade :)

Sounds a bit complicated. Surely a game of paper, scissors, stone would do the same job?

Originally posted by spyro2000
oooh id definitely fail that then. :(

OooOO, don't say that. If it came down to a viva, I bet you would be suprised by how much you know. It's funny how quickly things come flooding back to you when you're under pressure :thumbsup:

did you have to do one then Tracie?

ps- hope the move went well!

Originally posted by KookyKoo
did you have to do one then Tracie?

ps- hope the move went well!

No, I didn't, my marks were right in the middle of one of the grades. Two of my friends were on the 2:1 / 1st border though, and both walked out with firsts after completing a viva :)

I did have to have a viva as part of the assessment for the first year of my PhD though, and you do remember things much easier than you would imagine.

The move went great thanks - I am absolutely shattered today though :o *yawn* ;)

ah you've even changed your location to Walkley! Get you!

Vivas sound horrendous, glad I've not had to have one (yet)!

Originally posted by KookyKoo
ah you've even changed your location to Walkley! Get you!

Vivas sound horrendous, glad I've not had to have one (yet)!

:D I'm just efficient, me :P

A viva isn't too bad - you just have to remember that you have nothing to lose... you can't get a lower classification than the one you already have, but you might be able to move up to the next one :clap:

hmmm yeah I guess. At undergrad they had two different ways of working out your overall degree mark and you got the higher of the two, if they were different. Ah, seems like so long ago...

A degree used to be an award.

Now it is a final mark, calculated and matriculated. In some of the newer universities, moderation of the award by academic staff has been removed entirely.

A retrograde step IMO.

In my experience, academics still award marks, and fit them into the percentage system in use. So if you got 59% it is because the person marking your paper thought it was a high 2:2, but not 2:1 material.

Educators in HE also seems to be under pressure to use " the full spectrum of marks" resulting in some lecturers (notably in FE, but teaching HE franchise courses) marking all the way up to 100%. This is fine, except the rest of the course is being marked in degrees, and 71% would be considered an outstanding and noteworthy achievment, whereas 100% smells of corruption!

Of course if your paper was arithmetic or multiple guess, then this would not be the case.

do they not use a normalisation curve to achieve the distribution of results that they expect? (ie shifting the boundaries by a few % either way to get the spread of results that they would expect)

It seems to vary from institution to institution. I know Hallam have changed the rules for the last 3 years running. Originally, if you got 69% for example your coursework would be assessed and if it was good enough you would be awarded a first. On top of this they did use a sliding distribution curve to normalise results. Last year they sacked off the curve and the 2% leeway; you had to get bang on 70% to get a first. This year they realised that they weren't doing anyone any favours with that, so have pretty much resorted back to the old system. Not sure what next years plan is going to be.

Im at Hallam and I know that whatever the results are, they want to see an average across the board of 55% so I think they shift the grades accordingly.

Originally posted by Greenback
Sounds a bit complicated. Surely a game of paper, scissors, stone would do the same job?

The assessment system depends on the regulations, which vary from university to university. As for vivas on undergraduate degrees, they are not much used these days because of the sheer number of undergraduates. They are of course obligatory for PhDs, where the viva can last up to four hours.

With regard to degree classifications, the proportion of 2.1s awarded has increased very significantly. I think this is more likely to reflect dumbing down rather than an increase in the quality of undergraduates. In fact, many students now undertaking undergraduate degrees would never have been admitted to university a generation ago. I am not saying that the expansion of the higher education sector is not a good thing. We are deluding ourselves though if we think that this has not had a significant effect on the overall quality of degrees.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
A degree used to be an award.

Now it is a final mark, calculated and matriculated. In some of the newer universities, moderation of the award by academic staff has been removed entirely.

A retrograde step IMO.

In my experience, academics still award marks, and fit them into the percentage system in use. So if you got 59% it is because the person marking your paper thought it was a high 2:2, but not 2:1 material.

Educators in HE also seems to be under pressure to use " the full spectrum of marks" resulting in some lecturers (notably in FE, but teaching HE franchise courses) marking all the way up to 100%. This is fine, except the rest of the course is being marked in degrees, and 71% would be considered an outstanding and noteworthy achievment, whereas 100% smells of corruption!

Of course if your paper was arithmetic or multiple guess, then this would not be the case.

Good post Phan. Absolutely accurate.

At my first university the class allocations were very rigid. 49% a 2:2, 59% a 2:1, 69% a 1st. Your percentage was worked out three ways: a mean average of your 3rd year marks, a median average of your 3rd year marks, and a mean of your 2nd and 3rd year marks. Whichever was highest was what you got. Sounds pretty lenient but I believe the marking itself was fairly tough as the normal number of people you would expect achieved each class.

Can you imagine the administration and expense if they had to viva everyone within a couple of percent of every grade boundary? It would be a significant number given that there are boundaries at 40, 50, 60 and 70 per cent :)

By the way, you ain't lived until you've had a PhD viva... They spend a while reading your thesis and then sit in a room with you for as long as it takes, picking apart every single word you wrote and making you justify everything you said. Imagine the feeling of walking into the room and seeing your thesis with a yellow post-it note stuck to nearly every page :) But the thing is, you've been working on it every day for several years, so you know it fairly well. The major sticking points I found were the subject areas that I briefly touched on which were the examiner's speciality - we had some long conversations about what I thought were trivial details :)

Mine was 4 hours, which is about average for our department.

Originally posted by rich951
Can you imagine the administration and expense if they had to viva everyone within a couple of percent of every grade boundary? It would be a significant number given that there are boundaries at 40, 50, 60 and 70 per cent :)

By the way, you ain't lived until you've had a PhD viva... They spend a while reading your thesis and then sit in a room with you for as long as it takes, picking apart every single word you wrote and making you justify everything you said. Imagine the feeling of walking into the room and seeing your thesis with a yellow post-it note stuck to nearly every page :) But the thing is, you've been working on it every day for several years, so you know it fairly well. The major sticking points I found were the subject areas that I briefly touched on which were the examiner's speciality - we had some long conversations about what I thought were trivial details :)

Mine was 4 hours, which is about average for our department.

I have been on both sides of PhD panels and believe me it can be as trying for the examiners as for the candidate, particularly if its a borderline case or if its a dodgy one. The supervisors are in fact on trial as much as the candidates, because a good supervisor should never advise a student to submit unless he or she is pretty sure that the work is of PhD quality.

Originally posted by rich951
Mine was 4 hours, which is about average for our department.

To bask in reflected glory is a bit naff, but my gf's lancaster university history PhD viva lasted a grand total of 15 minutes, most of which was commendation for her theoretical rigor.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
To bask in reflected glory is a bit naff, but my gf's lancaster university history PhD viva lasted a grand total of 15 minutes, most of which was commendation for her theoretical rigor.

What shameless buggers her examiners must have been. At least they ought to have had the decency to spin it out for an hour in order to justify their fees.

Originally posted by mjlacey21
That's what I said!

They thought a first was consistently over 90%

maybe at Oxford. different unis can set the percentage but most are like the 3rd post

Originally posted by LordChaverly
What shameless buggers her examiners must have been. At least they ought to have had the decency to spin it out for an hour in order to justify their fees.
I think I've got to agree with that... It probably took 15 minutes for the opening preamble with mine, along the lines of "So, summarise what you've done and tell me why it's a genuine advance in human knowledge". Even if everything which is written is totally stunning work, they still need to be examined thoroughly if for no other reason than to prove that it was them that did the work!

Or maybe it's different for wishy-washy subjects like history :wink:

Originally posted by rich951

By the way, you ain't lived until you've had a PhD viva...

I can't wait... *whimper* :P ;)

I ended up with something daft like 58.86% this year (higher than the first year though!!) I got +70 in two of my modules. It only counts for 15% of my final grade, so next year is the big one!!