I for one, I may be alone in this, am disappointed that any thread that degenerates into racism is locked.

Whilst I don't 'enjoy' reading racist comments, such threads obviously spark significant interest and debate.

It gives us all the opportunity to air our views - and as such there will be minority views. But in order to combat these 'minority and racist' views, we must first understand them. By effectively sticking our heads in the sand, we are not accepting that some people have different views to us, and we therefore cannot attempt to educate these people into why we think the way we do.

I'm probably not explaining myself very well, but in order to tackle racism in this country, we need to understand why it exists and what has led these people to have such views.

I for one would welcome more information on this subject, by hiding it and blocking it - we are not tackling the issues head on and not having a chance to present reasoned arguments for or against it.

I hope i'm not offending anyone here, and I do understand (partly) why the mods do it, but surely there needs to be an avenue where we can have open discussions on issues which may offend other people - such as racism? I am genuinely interested in this as an issue, an issue relevant to everyone in Sheffield and welcome the opportunity to discuss the issues.

Originally posted by Hels
I for one, I may be alone in this, am disappointed that any thread that degenerates into racism is locked.

Whilst I don't 'enjoy' reading racist comments, such threads obviously spark significant interest and debate.

It gives us all the opportunity to air our views - and as such there will be minority views. But in order to combat these 'minority and racist' views, we must first understand them. [/B]

I totally agree with you Hels. Although I do not like the overtly political stuff that goes too far, it's still important to see it!

I love the fact that I could be sitting here at this computer, interacting with a potential 14.5K group; and that we get to see and deal with all aspects of the human condition in each thread.

I wonder which thread you refer to? I know that abusive stuff gets removed as soon as... I think sometimes people will see it as censorship when some of their views are removed, whereas other will see it as keeping the peace!

But I thought threads were allowed to run with their contentious views until the warnings to keep the offensive language down were ignored, the 'debate' got too heated, spilled over into other threads, or it became impossible to moderate due to the speed of responses.

I like the moderation on here. We all like it enough to come back, so playing by Geoff's rules can't be all that bad :thumbsup:

(It's damned annoying if you've got something to say and it won't post though ;) )

That spate of BNP campaigning on here was excrutiating (when we had a politics forum before the election). Any new visitors would have thought this was a BNP forum :mad:

(PS - sorry for any spelling mistakes :( )

Originally posted by Hels
I for one, I may be alone in this, am disappointed that any thread that degenerates into racism is locked.

Whilst I don't 'enjoy' reading racist comments, such threads obviously spark significant interest and debate.

It gives us all the opportunity to air our views - and as such there will be minority views. But in order to combat these 'minority and racist' views, we must first understand them. By effectively sticking our heads in the sand, we are not accepting that some people have different views to us, and we therefore cannot attempt to educate these people into why we think the way we do.

I'm probably not explaining myself very well, but in order to tackle racism in this country, we need to understand why it exists and what has led these people to have such views.

I for one would welcome more information on this subject, by hiding it and blocking it - we are not tackling the issues head on and not having a chance to present reasoned arguments for or against it.

I hope i'm not offending anyone here, and I do understand (partly) why the mods do it, but surely there needs to be an avenue where we can have open discussions on issues which may offend other people - such as racism? I am genuinely interested in this as an issue, an issue relevant to everyone in Sheffield and welcome the opportunity to discuss the issues. You are not alone:) I think a lot of racism is generated by the tabloid press, they are forever telling people that foreigners get more than people born in England do in benifits, housing and are given jobs over British people. It causes resentment.

I can understand why mods close these threads down too - in a way - they must take up an awful lot of moderating time with all the name calling and arguing on a personal level that goes on. If people could discuss racism rationally then the threads wouldn't get closed but I don't think thats ever going to happen. If someone has racist views they are never going to convince me so I wouldn't be able to convince them. It's stalemate:|

And how long before you think this thread will be took of the forum you should have done a poll :?:

What I fail to understand, and what I feel I need to understand, it WHY people are racist, homophobic or whatever.

I think I had a very average up-bringing. My parents weren't the best in the world, they weren't the worst either.

I do not consider myself a highly educated person but I am trying to educate myself. I am trying to understand issues that I am not familiar with.

Yes, name calling always comes into discussions where feelings run high, I wish they wouldn't, but maybe just those posts which contain personal insults could be deleted?

I'm sorry Mod's, I know you do a good job and I really do appreciate all the hard work. I really do appreciate that this is a family forum and that's why I keep coming back. :thumbsup:

Sometimes it's experience Hels :(

My sister is often derogatory about asians, but when you know that she has asian friends (so she isn't actuallyracist), and that she lived in Perry Barr in Birmingham (where pouring petrol on your wife and setting fire to her because you think she may have committed some form of indescretion is normal :loopy: ), you know where she's coming from. It's a generalisation. It's just a bit of a gobfull to say 'many of the asian population in the area I lived in, which isn't to say every asian in Britain..... blah blah.

The treatment the asian blokes dole out to white females is responsible for most of her 'attitude'

Of course I suspect that most of the propaganda peddled on here by some users has no substance at all :rant:

I also get frustrated when debates are locked because they descend into racism. It's an issue that should be allowed to be discussed and not censored.

Originally posted by t020
I also get frustrated when debates are locked because they descend into racism. It's an issue that should be allowed to be discussed and not censored.

I agree racism should be allowed to be discussed. But I don't think people should be allowed to say whatever they like on here.

Someone who I had never even heard of before came in the chatroom a few nights ago and introduced herself with something along the lines of "Patchy, you don't like my boyfriend, do you?".

She then started making extremely racist comments, and offended at least one forum member enough to get herself reported, although she has been allowed to continue with her blatantly racist comments since. Several people asked her, for example, why she hates Asian people (who she refers to as "pakis" and "scum").... but got no answer.

Some people come on this forum just to promote racism, and have no interest whatsoever in listening to other people's views.

As the Mod. who locked the thread, can I make a suggestion?

If you want to defeat the racists - engage and defeat their arguments. To be frank, most racists on this forum look like raving idiots to people who read the threads.

And people form the other side of the political divide who engage in the name calling look the same. These threads often look like two groups of individuals bellowing at each other from the standpoint of 'we're right, we're good, you're wrong, you're bad'.

We DO pull a lot of racist and personally insulting threads and posts. We also ban members for racism, as well as for being personally insulting.

I locked off that thread last night because it was getting ridiculous, and it was late. The argument was going nowhere - just people re-iterating their existing standpoints.

There are a number of members around who actually inflame matters on these threads - again from both sides of the political divide.

We may open that thread up again later today; I'm tempted to let it stay closed nd just fade away; people can still see the racists in their true colours if I do that; by pulling their posts all the time they get the opportunity to plead 'censorship'.

Joe

To an extent I agree with Joe on this one.
It's all well and good trying to argue the point with people of a racist nature but at the end of the day it's like trying to educate the village idiot.

People are who they are and the majority of times there viewpoint will never change.
Sometimes you can change and individual... for example (and I maybe putting my neck on the line here) but at the beginning of my Sheffield Forum career;) I had a mixed view on racial tension.
I'd never have classed myself as a racist at the time, but impressionable depending on view of peers, family members and/or media.

I remember something happening a while back regarding islamic extremists and violence. I started a thread (IIRC) about why we allow this violent religion of Muslims into our country and to flourish?
Some people agreed with me, but I'm happy to say that members (and I hope they don't mind me saying there names) Abdul and Phanerothyme gave some insight into the muslim religion.

It didn't take me long to get an urge to look into what they were telling me about Muslim's and their peacful practices and that the people who call themselves muslims and carry out these terror attacks are not real muslims at all.
Basically andthis maybe corny, they got me back on the straight and narrow and gave me more of an informed opinionand judgement. I'm glad to say that I don't have this viewpoint anymore... cheers guys :thumbsup:

So Hels, if we are allowed to continue to debate constructively then yes, changes and education for the benefit can come for some forum members. However for the hard line haters of this world (and I mention no names in this) I ask Why give them a platform for their ignorant views? If they want to do it, let them do it elsewhere where decent and open minded people don't have to endure their racial slur?

DaB :)

I've just logged on this morning and found a thread that got pulled (to do with asylum seekers living within Britain) and it did seem to degenerate rapidly into a deluge of name-calling, insults and a few threats of violence. It is a shame that we find the topic of immigration 'difficult' to debate as it's one that affects us all.

You might be surprised to hear it but I have some time for Royjames. Though his particular blend of politics certainly isn't my own I do agree that immigration shouldn't be an issue we should avoid. Indeed at the last General Election Michael Howard (I reveal now my own brand of politics) was being labelled as 'racist' for tackling the situation. But this is by the by and not the subject of this thread.

What I do seem to find on all these threads is a sort of 'baiting' style (ie. an overtly controversial topic or statement is posted and people are asked to comment / argue / respond). Perhaps it is this 'baiting' style that leads to the rapid degeneration of many threads. But then again I sometimes look at these style of threads and think that there really isn't much to debate. The thread starter just wants to start an argument with someone. Usually this particular type of behaviour is characterised by 'self moderation'. By this I mean that the thread starter posts some bait. They then receive a reply which they perceive to be an insult or a personal attack. They then respond by saying, "Don't insult me / Don't make it personal". Honestly, what did they expect?

In the meantime, I'm much happier sticking to the jovial and upbeat threads such as:

- How many jeans have you got?
- How long before you said: 'I Love You'
- Who has the most slappable face in entertainment?

Originally posted by DaBouncer
It's all well and good trying to argue the point with people of a racist nature but at the end of the day it's like trying to educate the village idiot.





And as Sheffield is reputedly the biggest village in Britain, it figures we should have the largest number of village idiots.... :)

Actually, as JonJParr pointed out above, if people can avoid rising to the bait, the stirrers of either political persuasion will find that the threads sink back in to the lower reaches of the Forum, rarely to be seen again.

Joe

Originally posted by JonJParr
[B]I've just logged on this morning and found a thread that got pulled (to do with asylum seekers living within Britain) and it did seem to degenerate rapidly into a deluge of name-calling, insults and a few threats of violence. It is a shame that we find the topic of immigration 'difficult' to debate as it's one that affects us all.

]

I often enjoy reading some of the debates set by people especailly ones of recently relating to immigration and the BNP.

One of my reasons for reading them is that you get to see other peoples views and quite often learn something new. I'm also interested when people make views which are factullay correct which can often be a rarity in a thread. For example, i refer to redrobbo who although expresses his knowledge from the council is doing this in his own time.

Like JonParr, altough he has his many knockers i wouldn't knock RoyJames comments whether or not i agree with them.

One of the problems on here which end up in people name calling is that people do not RESPECT other peoples views. I disgaree and shake my head at many a comment on here but i do respect that that person has his or her views.

The mods such as Joe appear to do a great job which wont always be appreciated by some

As one who did rise to the bait yesterday (something I try not to do) I did wonder afterwards if we should ignore these kind of postings completely, because by answering and arguing with them all we are doing is giving them the platform they desire.

Jon,

You are quite right. The issues of immigration and asylum are difficult to debate on here in a calm, civilized and mutually respectful manner. This is why I (and probably many others) seldom contribute to the discussions on these topics.

The Forum of course is not unique in this. These issues have always been difficult to debate, or even to raise, ever since the advent of mass immigration into this country in the post-war era. For many years, the issue of mass immigration was kept off the political agenda, even though there is ample evidence that ordinary people were becoming increasingly concerned about its implications. A culture of denial, and of looking the other way, developed within the political elites. When the issue was raised, or when incidents occured which made it impossible to ignore, the standard response of these elites was to minimise the scale of the problem or to attempt to silence any discussion by arguing that it would constitute a threat to race relations. As time went on, and the scale of mass immigration became impossible to ignore, and when the assimilationist doctrines underpinning it became increasingly divorced from reality, the proponents of mass immigration adopted another tactic in order to silence debate on these issues - i.e. the profligate use of the word 'racist', probably the most derogatory term of abuse in the political lexicon, and one which now carries with it the threat of prosecution and even dismissal from one's job.

This word has been grossly devalued by overuse, as George Orwell said of the word 'fascism' shortly after the second world war. It is used on this forum and elsewhere primarily to score quick debating points (or more accurately to avoid debate at all). Just as certain words (such as 'liar') are banned at St. James' Palace, I think there is a good case for banning profligate use of the words 'racism' or racist' on immigration or asylum threads. This would shorten or reduce the length of the threads on these issues no end, because certain posters seem to have nothing constructive to say on these issues other than to accuse other posters of 'racism' on the flimsiest of evidence, or even no evidence at all.

Originally posted by JoeP
If you want to defeat the racists - engage and defeat their arguments. To be frank, most racists on this forum look like raving idiots to people who read the threads.

And people form the other side of the political divide who engage in the name calling look the same. These threads often look like two groups of individuals bellowing at each other from the standpoint of 'we're right, we're good, you're wrong, you're bad'.


It isn't possible to engage and defeat the arguments of an avowed racist. Their arguments originate from a dislike of otherness that is based entirely on a gut reaction, a primal fear, and as such cannot and will not be moderated through logical debate. The only thing a reasonable person can do is expose the racist for what they are.

As far as asylum and immigration are concerned, I've enjoyed the debates on here which have certainly forced me to evaluate my own position on the issue. But too often the more reasonable posters are drowned out by the hard-of-thinking, most often from the right of the political spectrum but also occassionally from the left.

Good points, Greenback. I know from previous correspondence that you are always willing to listen to cogent, well-crafted arguments on topics such as 'race' and immigration, which are not in line with the left/liberal consensus. Mine, for example! Rather than dismiss my hereditarian arguments out of hand, with the mantra, 'race is a social construct', you have always treated my views respectfully, as assertions which demand to be proven or disproven. I thank you for that.

In sharp contrast are the highly-strung fools, who have labelled any arguments which stress the deficits and limitations of multiculturalism, or suggestions, based on academic evidence, that there are geographical variations in human intelligence, as 'racist' and 'fascist'. Such types often whinge on about democracy and freedom of speech. In reality, they are in favour of free speech as long as they agree with what is being expressed.

is timo allowed to use that sort of language (lol)

Originally posted by Greenback
It isn't possible to engage and defeat the arguments of an avowed racist. Their arguments originate from a dislike of otherness that is based entirely on a gut reaction, a primal fear, and as such cannot and will not be moderated through logical debate. The only thing a reasonable person can do is expose the racist for what they are.



Which is why I made the comment about them looking like raving idiots.

Whilst we will clamp down on abuse, incitment and name calling, censoring racist comment makes it too easy for people of opposing political views to terminate arguments on vaguely related issues by yelling 'racist'. Also, censoring posts gives the original posters a credibility to others who will argue that 'they must be right; people are scared of what they say and only win arguments with them via censorship'.

I'm not of the 'I disagree with what you say but I defend with my life your right to say it' school of thought. I do agree in censorship in certain cases, as expressed above. But walking the line between permitting fair debate, letting people dig holes for themselves and censoring when things become too extreme is one that as a Forum we have to do.

And Timo - you beat me to what I was going to say next so I won't say it. :) Nice to see you again!

Joe