Firstly can people with disrespectful jokes or stupid one line comments please stay away from this thread as most of the other MJ threads seem to have been ruined by infantile remarks or old re-used, unfunny jokes. Please mods, keep an eye on this one, it's just a place to find out the latest goings on and hear peoples views in a mature way. :thumbsup:


Well, from latest reports it looks like MJ's body will not be on display to public or media before his funeral, at the request of his family.

He will be buried in Las Vegas temporarily until all the red tape is out of the way to allow him to be buried in the grounds of his home at the Neverland ranch. The family have chosen his favourite idyllic spot near a waterfall.

There will however be a public memorial to MJ this Sunday.

MJ's mother Katherine has been given custody of the children as set out in MJ's will but should she also pass away the children will be looked after by Diana Ross.

Any more news, views & updates - please post them here.

Las Vegas was always a fav for MJ. I remember watching the living with MJ Bashir documentary & where he decided to have a last minute holiday to Las Vegas. It has also been reported that his children are staying with his brother Jermaine.

Well, from latest reports it looks like MJ's body will not be on display to public or media before his funeral, at the request of his family.

I hope they don't. It would be yet another betrayal by his father if it went ahead. Everyone knows how he constantly hid his face from public view so to be laid out for all and sundry is horrible. Who in there right mind would go anyway? Surely any fan would respect that. :(

as in death as he was in life { a freak show }

Looks like Debbie Rowe is going to be giving DNA samples to prove she IS the biological mother of the children.

Also, the public memorial for MJ is going to happen on Tuesday 7th July at the Staples Arena.

Britains got talent star Shaheen Jafargholi to sing at MJ's memorial today.

Shaheen in LA (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2521012/BGT-finalist-Shaheen-sings-at-Michael-Jackson-memorial.html) :thumbsup:

Britains got talent star Shaheen Jafargholi to sing at MJ's memorial today.

Shaheen in LA (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2521012/BGT-finalist-Shaheen-sings-at-Michael-Jackson-memorial.html) :thumbsup:

It also has been reported that Mariah Carey, Stevie Wonder shall be at the memorial but no confirmation if they will be singing. Debbie Rowe & Elizabeth Taylar shall not be there.

Bless Shaheen, I hope he does well. I am sure the funeral/memorial shall be a mixture of emotions for a lot of the fans.

Is it true that Michael Jackson is buried in $25,000 gold plated casket?:o I remember the old news that James Brown also used that casket, and is extremely rare and wow for the price. I read the news about some big actors like Stevie Wonder and Usher, motorcade is sponsored by range rover and many swat team escort.

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Is it true that Michael Jackson is buried in $25,000 gold plated casket?:o I remember the old news that James Brown also used that casket, and is extremely rare and wow for the price. I read the news about some big actors like Stevie Wonder and Usher, motorcade is sponsored by range rover and many swat team escort.

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It has been reported that he shall be buried in a gold plated casket but your guess is as good as mine. I just hope he is in peace where ever he maybe.

With that money? I'm just thinking, in view of all the suffering and poverty that we have that it's wrong to spend money like that. $25,000 that's a lot of money. Just think how many poor and street children can use that money for food. I'm not saying Michael doesn't deserve it(He actually deserve it), I'm just saying I think the money could be spent in a better way, on something or someone else that needs help. Anyway Michael, Rest In Peace!!!

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You watch the funeral live on skynews..................http://news.sky.com/skynews/Sky-Live-TV

I'll be watching on BBC2 at 6 ish .. raising my glass of champagne in memory of Michael Jackson - and wishing him the peace, in death, that he didn't seem to find in life.

I am watching it now on sky news. But i am slightly confused with the funeral. I thought MJ converted to Islam, if so why is MJ been buried as a Jehovahs Witness and not has a muslim, did he go back to been a jehovahs witness. It nice too that the family have change minds to have his body taken to the Staples center so fans too have the chance to say good bye too.

The memorial's beautiful thus far...

The memorial's beautiful thus far...

apart from that stevie wonder song, i thought he was a lot better than that

I'm ashamed to say I didn't see that part (my OH didn't fancy watching it eating his tea) Think it's nice they gave tickets out for free, hope nobody profited from any of it.

Awwwwwwww Shaheen Jafargholi was very good indeed. Very brave of him to do what he did infront of all the people watching and infront of other great legends and known artists.

Awwwwwwww Shaheen Jafargholi was very good indeed. Very brave of him to do what he did infront of all the people watching and infront of other great legends and known artists.

I Agree He Was good very good indeed

I got this far without the sniffles, but Heal the World's done it for me.

Used to be a huge huge huge fan - then kind of lost it somewhere along the way. Having said that I was absolutely gob smacked to hear of his death and and very saddened about all the conjecture that surrounds his passing. The memorial service was very fitting and I really hope that he finds the peace in death that was cruelly denied him in life. (Don't think his kids should have been on stage at the end, although they did seem to cope with it all, Paris was even singing along bless her).

Awwwwwwww Shaheen Jafargholi was very good indeed. Very brave of him to do what he did infront of all the people watching and infront of other great legends and known artists.

couldnt agree more ,how wonderfull,such a brave young man he will go far

Used to be a huge huge huge fan - then kind of lost it somewhere along the way. Having said that I was absolutely gob smacked to hear of his death and and very saddened about all the conjecture that surrounds his passing. The memorial service was very fitting and I really hope that he finds the peace in death that was cruelly denied him in life. (Don't think his kids should have been on stage at the end, although they did seem to cope with it all, Paris was even singing along bless her).

I agree with you has i use to be a huge fan too, but like you i too lost it somewhere but i still enjoy his music that i grew up with, i was glad i got to see him when he was alive to perforrm. What you said is the same thing i would say. Only song that got me tonight was you are not alone, always make me shed a tear even now, And bless his daughter for speakin out too i feel for his kids.

I've been watching a bit of the coverage and I have to say, hearing his daughter speak got me. Bless her heart. No matter what anyone says about MJ, his family loved him, his kids loved him. Breaks my heart to see his kids suffer.

my heart to see his kids suffer.

Don’t you think that those kids can now start to live, they where up there on the stage rather than hiding behind masks, that’s good to be one good thing that as come out of it all.

Don’t you think that those kids can now start to live, they where up there on the stage rather than hiding behind masks, that’s good to be one good thing that as come out of it all.

I suppose it is a good thing. I just hope the media doesn't continually hound them because of the family they were born into and they will be allowed to lead more normal lives.

Thank you Michael for the music....like many have said you shall live on through many of us.

The memorial service was an excellent tribute to him. His brother Marlon spoke very passionately about him & spoke very wisely when he said this was not the end. Hearing his daughter speak got me & seeing his youngest child holding a doll like of his dad was very moving. I cannot imagine how any child must feel when they loose a parent at such a young age. It made me feel very blessed with the loves that I have got around me.

Shaheen, bless that little tinker did a great tribute to the King of Pop.

Awwwwwwww Shaheen Jafargholi was very good indeed. Very brave of him to do what he did infront of all the people watching and infront of other great legends and known artists.

I think Jennifer Hudson deserves special note also, as she must still be raw after the shooting dead of her mother,brother and nephew late last year.

I think Jennifer Hudson deserves special note also, as she must still be raw after the shooting dead of her mother,brother and nephew late last year.

I was thinking the same thing when she was performing.

I was thinking the same thing when she was performing.

Yep that truely was perhaps the bravest of all the performances at the memorial.


On a side note though, as big an event as this event is, it doesn't seem anywhere as big as the media were making out to be.

First they said that perhaps a million people without tickets would come to verge on the Staples centre and the streets of LA dwarfing the crowds that came to see Elvis Presley or Princess Diana.

Latest reports were that only a small crowd of perhaps 400 lined the streets of LA.

Who was the female singer leading We are the World etc. towards the end?

Who was the female singer leading We are the World etc. towards the end?

Don't know, but she was good.

Hiya everyone. Does anyone know where I an watch the whole service, I had programmed my BT vision box to record it, but it cut off after Brooke Shields tribute and Im so upset, thanks x

Who was the female singer leading We are the World etc. towards the end?

Her name is Judith Hill. She did a great tribute to him, very pretty too. This is a linky to her..........http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvtP9yOomB8

Hiya everyone. Does anyone know where I an watch the whole service, I had programmed my BT vision box to record it, but it cut off after Brooke Shields tribute and Im so upset, thanks x

Try bbc/iplayer....They will be showing the service in two parts.

Try bbc/iplayer....They will be showing the service in two parts.

Thanks so much, I did a search but drew a blank, cheers :)

Thanks so much, I did a search but drew a blank, cheers :)

Your welcome :)

I have just checked you are unable to view part 2 just yet. Not sure why as you can watch part 1. Have your Kleenex ready for the last half an hour of the service of part2. Hopefully they should upload the programme in the next few hours.

I have just watched the memorial and it was such a moving tribute to MJ. I was never a big fan of MJ but loved his music. I am so shocked that he is not with us anymore. In my heart I know that he was a pure person and had a pure heart and a pure spirit. He was a gift from God and we were very very lucky to be blessed with him and his music.

MJ may you rest in peace and may God bless you.

Watched the service on BBC2 last night , very moving and for the time they had to put it together i thought very well co-ordinated. So why oh! why did it have to be spoiled for us by the choice of commantaters of the beeb. Paul Gambachini and some pratt named Trevor Nelson. They talked during the silence, made snide comments about the guests and were just totally disrespectful during the whole service. I hear there is to be a dvd out of the service, i hope so because then i can watch it without having to shout out at the box for a pair of idiots to "shut the **** up".

I watched the memorial service last night and i was really moved by the performances. . especialy Ushers, as he walked off stage he could not hold back his emotions and i dont think anybody else could. When his brother Jermain sang the Charlie Chaplin song smile though your heart is breaking. . all our hearts broke. We have never seen or heard his children and his beautiful daughter stood in front of millions and simply said her father was the best daddy she had ever had. . i could not hold back my tears all my family were sobbing.
Michael was the greatest performer EVER he was a guenius with a beautiful soul and i hope he sat watchin in heaven and smiling down on what he has acheived, breaking rascial barries making it so that all races are able to acheive their goal what it is in life.
I am proud to say i am a Michael Jackson fan may he rest in peace.
Once a tortoured soul now a free soul!
RIP MJ

Well done Paris. I'd sort of kept some kind of composure till that moment. Heart-wrenching.

A beautiful memorial, a great send of for the world's best entertainer. MJ was someone without comparison, no-one will ever come anywhere near.

From all the money-hungry and paparazzi MJ is now at peace. Reverand Al Sharpton said it best to MJ's Kids: 'Your father was not strange, it was all the stuff he had to put up with that was strange'

Sod all the tabloid media and their lies.

Goodnight Michael Jackson and thanks for sharing your talent with us all, May you rest in peace now.

Latest reports were that only a small crowd of perhaps 400 lined the streets of LA.

Could that be because the police shut the place down or “lock down” to give it its Americanism.

Could that be because the police shut the place down or “lock down” to give it its Americanism.

Whilst I'm sure it may have had some effect, I think that the police still expected much, much larger crowds.

In fact a report in with one of the heads of the police operation said that after a few hours when there were no signs of the crowds they had originally feared that he took half the officers off their posts.

Even on the bridges which weren't closed to the public only a small number of people gathered.

I think the last report I heard that fans that hadn't got tickets that came to the Staples centre was more like 600 rather than the 750,000 that both the media and police had anticipated.

Essentially I think, just with everything since Jackson's death has been grossly exagerated by the media.

Here are some examples of the Exaggeration:

SkyNews reported that Micheal Jackson would be the first person to take ALL top ten slots in the UK charts:

The reality was that NONE of Jackson singles filled the top ten slots on the Sunday that they predicted Jackson's singles would dominate.

Sky News reported that 500 million had applied for the memorial tickets:

The reality a half - 1.6 million applied.

Even yesterday Sky described in it's report and I quote "Millions" applied for the tickets.....now Millions to me means the minimum of 2 million at the very least.....now since when can 1.6 million be described as "millions":confused:

The original estimate that Sky and other newspaper reported that might flood around the Staples centre was I million, dwarfing Elvis and Princess Diana funeral crowds.

The reality 600 (CBS) came.

I even heard news report that on Euronews that Global internet traffic increased by a third yesterday.

A guradian report quotes the company that carried out the internet traffic measurement who claim that traffic increased by 19% now since when did 19% become a third:confused:

The phrase "Don't believe the hype!" has never seem so apt:!:

7/7 what a day for a funeral

This what we should remember Michael for:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K27IFxx_AnM

Mr Entertainment...

is there anywhere i can watch the full memorial online, i missed it and the sky replay on sky news kept crashing last night. really want to see it. help!

Al Sharpton is the Mcdaddy of God Fathers.........http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MAKLq865bk

Whilst I'm sure it may have had some effect, I think that the police still expected much, much larger crowds.

In fact a report in with one of the heads of the police operation said that after a few hours when there were no signs of the crowds they had originally feared that he took half the officers off their posts.

Even on the bridges which weren't closed to the public only a small number of people gathered.

I think the last report I heard that fans that hadn't got tickets that came to the Staples centre was more like 600 rather than the 750,000 that both the media and police had anticipated.

Essentially I think, just with everything since Jackson's death has been grossly exagerated by the media.

Here are some examples of the Exaggeration:

SkyNews reported that Micheal Jackson would be the first person to take ALL top ten slots in the UK charts:

The reality was that NONE of Jackson singles filled the top ten slots on the Sunday that they predicted Jackson's singles would dominate.

Sky News reported that 500 million had applied for the memorial tickets:

The reality a half - 1.6 million applied.

Even yesterday Sky described in it's report and I quote "Millions" applied for the tickets.....now Millions to me means the minimum of 2 million at the very least.....now since when can 1.6 million be described as "millions":confused:

The original estimate that Sky and other newspaper reported that might flood around the Staples centre was I million, dwarfing Elvis and Princess Diana funeral crowds.

The reality 600 (CBS) came.

I even heard news report that on Euronews that Global internet traffic increased by a third yesterday.

A guradian report quotes the company that carried out the internet traffic measurement who claim that traffic increased by 19% now since when did 19% become a third:confused:

The phrase "Don't believe the hype!" has never seem so apt:!:

You can copy and paste as much of the media as you want KM, but the truth is out there in the amount of grief people felt by MJ's death, the news coverage his death got, the fans around the world, the number of singles and albums in the charts again..and again...and again!

How do you know there were 600 fans outside the Staples centre?? did you personally count each and every one?.. because obviously you got hold of that stat from the media - and, as you keep telling us you think the media lied about the numbers ( as your post states above )

The thread title says "Michael Jackson - Latest News"

Well the latest news is that he is still dead and is likely to remain that way for some considerable time.

How do you know there were 600 fans outside the Staples centre?? did you personally count each and every one?.. because obviously you got hold of that stat from the media - and, as you keep telling us you think the media lied about the numbers ( as your post states above )

Because that's what the police estimated and also bloggers who were on the scene report.

I never said the media lied about the figures, just that they hyped them up by a very considerable margin.

Let's face it Lestat If there were hundreds of thousands then you would have report upon report of this on the media, they always love shooting a big crowd gathering you know.

Because that's what the police estimated and also bloggers who were on the scene report.



And here is one such blogger Eric Richardson who was reporting what he saw and taking and uploading photos in LA and at The Staples Centre.

http://blogdowntown.com/2009/07/4494-emotional-crowd-inside-jackson-memorial-service

He writes:

" A series of emotional speeches and performances brought out tears both on-stage and in the audience attending the Michael Jackson memorial service at Staples Center today, but a crowd that many expected to form outside the facility failed to materialize."

8:15am — Still an orderly scene outside. A steady, orderly stream of those with wristbands and tickets can be seen crossing into the L.A. Live area past the LAPD barricades. There does not yet seem to be any significant build-up of ticketless fans, but no one knows what the situation will be at 10am when the service starts.

1:15pm — The service has ended, and those who were inside Staples Center and Nokia Theatre are headed home. I would generously estimate the crowd outside the barricades at 500.

And here is one such blogger Eric Richardson who was reporting what he saw and taking and uploading photos in LA and at The Staples Centre.

http://blogdowntown.com/2009/07/4494-emotional-crowd-inside-jackson-memorial-service

He writes:

" A series of emotional speeches and performances brought out tears both on-stage and in the audience attending the Michael Jackson memorial service at Staples Center today, but a crowd that many expected to form outside the facility failed to materialize."

8:15am — Still an orderly scene outside. A steady, orderly stream of those with wristbands and tickets can be seen crossing into the L.A. Live area past the LAPD barricades. There does not yet seem to be any significant build-up of ticketless fans, but no one knows what the situation will be at 10am when the service starts.

1:15pm — The service has ended, and those who were inside Staples Center and Nokia Theatre are headed home. I would generously estimate the crowd outside the barricades at 500.

Okay, so thats one blogger. I don't understand why your so worried about the people outside the Staples Center??? surely they took the police advice earlier and didn't come down as they wanted to see the memorial on TV (as they didn't have tickets) . . How many (estimated) people watched the event on TV? maybe you could give us that figure - worldwide... somewhere near a billion wasn't it?

Or are you going to dispute that too.:suspect:

Okay, so thats one blogger. I don't understand why your so worried about the people outside the Staples Center??? surely they took the police advice earlier and didn't come down as they wanted to see the memorial on TV (as they didn't have tickets) . . How many (estimated) people watched the event on TV? maybe you could give us that figure - worldwide... somewhere near a billion wasn't it?

Or are you going to dispute that too.:suspect:

Indeed; media coverage is far and away the best way to judge the popularity of a celebrity.

Bearing this in mind it's no exaggeration to say that Michael Jackson was almost as popular and talented as Jade Goody.

Indeed; media coverage is far and away the best way to judge the popularity of a celebrity.

Bearing this in mind it's no exaggeration to say that Michael Jackson was almost as popular and talented as Jade Goody.

I agree Basil. Just look at the media coverage Saddam's 'yo yo' impression got. By heck, how popular must he have been, eh?

has anyone else noticed that Kingmaker2 has a real hatred for MJ? i find it funny how some people spend hours of their time scouring the web looking for statements to try and prove a point :)

Latest news -- He`s back!. said its all been a publicity stunt. Tyring to sell more
crappy CD`s.

has anyone else noticed that Kingmaker2 has a real hatred for MJ? i find it funny how some people spend hours of their time scouring the web looking for statements to try and prove a point :)

Err have you bothered to actually read to the content of my posts:confused:

I have never expressed any hatred towards Jackson at all, In fact I Had the "Bad" album when it was released, and it was one of the first CD I actually played in my new CD player (CD players were relatively new on the market back then)

If atually have read my posts then you will understand that I am only attacking the "media hype" not the man.:rolleyes:

In any case it didn't take me hours to find my links they were very easily found.

Next question Paranoid!;)

Okay, so thats one blogger. I don't understand why your so worried about the people outside the Staples Center??? surely they took the police advice earlier and didn't come down as they wanted to see the memorial on TV (as they didn't have tickets) . . How many (estimated) people watched the event on TV? maybe you could give us that figure - worldwide... somewhere near a billion wasn't it?

Or are you going to dispute that too.:suspect:

Yeah right ALL previously anticipated 980,000 fans stayed away because of the police warnings!:rolleyes:

As for the viewing figures err again that was a manufactured figure given out on networks like SkyNews who said a billion people would be watching.......before the event even began!:huh:
Now tell how did they work out the figure? did they do a survey in each country to find out who would be watching:confused:

SkyNews said Jackson was about toi make history by filling all top ten slots in the UK singles charts........err they were out by a country mile!

Do you really think their viewing audience estimates are any more accurate?

Here's the Washington post take on the viewing figures:

"Hysterical predictions aside, Michael Jackson's memorial service did not set U.S. television records yesterday.

About 31 million people in the country watched Jackson's last act across 19 networks, according to Nielsen. That's less than half the crowd that collected in front of their sets in August '98 to watch President Bill Clinton apologize for the blue-dress bungle."

"And of course you're seeing and/or hearing the press reports that about a billion watched Jackson's memorial worldwide. In fact, the press began reporting that figure before the funeral was even held. They did not get this number from Nielsen. For all its faults, Nielsen draws the line at reporting viewing numbers before viewers actually have something to, um, view.

No, this number was being swallowed in big gulps by the press compliments of AEG."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/08/AR2009070803095.html?hpid=topnews

his kids! another money earner for the jacksons, did you read that they will be stars. They are so obviously not his kids.

Now the docs are going to be charged with manslaughter!

Yeah right ALL previously anticipated 980,000 fans stayed away because of the police warnings!:rolleyes:

As for the viewing figures err again that was a manufactured figure given out on networks like SkyNews

One question KM, did you watch the memorial?

Okay, now the circus has left town the latest news is that there is no latest news and Michael Jackson is still dead. Can we forget about the death of a drug-addled eighties pop star and get back to more important news?

Okay, now the circus has left town the latest news is that there is no latest news and Michael Jackson is still dead. Can we forget about the death of a drug-addled eighties pop star and get back to more important news?


Nope, because there isn't none. :D if you don't like it - easy, read another thread.

Nope, because there isn't none. :D if you don't like it - easy, read another thread.

The point I'm making and have just started another thread about is that the obsession with Wacko Jacko's death has shoved more serious news off the front page and allowed our lying government to get away with more lying and cheating. Surely even you agree that who's running the country is more important than the death of a pop star?

The point I'm making and have just started another thread about is that the obsession with Wacko Jacko's death has shoved more serious news off the front page and allowed our lying government to get away with more lying and cheating. Surely even you agree that who's running the country is more important than the death of a pop star?

I agree to a certain extent that it's pushed other news to the side for abit, but to be honest before MJ's death - ALL the news, every day, was all about how dire our government is.

From expenses rows, to underfunding the army to political corruption in parliament to racist riots, fat cat bankers and recession, back to MP's expenses EVERY DAY - ALL DAY!

It's a public interest story and more people than you think want to hear about MJ, the record sales alone prove that point.

Why are you people coming on this thread just to get a rise out of Lestat. He is obviously a big fan of MJ and was putting info on for other fans, not to have arguments with people that aren't. :mad:
Go and play somewhere else.

I just wish theyd lay him to rest, Id say in peace, but I doubt that will happen :roll:

One question KM, did you watch the memorial?

I did, but so what?

Again my argument isn't about the man, but the media hype.

Would you not at least concede that SkyNews and other news organisations have no idea how many people would be watching the memorial before the event actually takes place?

They quoted I billion viewers, but the figures from Nielsen suggest that the 1 billion figure that we were told would be watching was off the mark by some distance.

Okay, now the circus has left town the latest news is that there is no latest news and Michael Jackson is still dead. Can we forget about the death of a drug-addled eighties pop star and get back to more important news?

Unfortunately the, affairs of Micheal Jackson will rumble on for some time, especially in the tabloids.

Jackson may be off the headlines temporarily but stories will soon return to the haedlines as we hear the detailed results of the post mortems, and the issues regarding his will and custody of his children lingers on in the court rooms,....
and then there will be all those "Kiss and tell" stories that the likes of The Sun, Mirror,News of the World and Sky News will lap up, as they all clamber to get the "exclusive" interview with Jackson's pizza delivery boy.

You can just hear it now in an upcoming News of the World Front Page.

Exclusive...Jackson Shocker! :

"Pizza Delivery boy claims Jackson wanted more than extra pepperoni on his pizza!"

As an entertainer, he was great. As a person, I think he was a lost soul. I thought it vulgar of his family to have his coffin at the memorial service. Give him some dignity at least.

Why are you people coming on this thread just to get a rise out of Lestat. He is obviously a big fan of MJ and was putting info on for other fans, not to have arguments with people that aren't. :mad:
Go and play somewhere else.

:thumbsup: Thanks Utah, it always happens with MJ threads unfortunately. Even when you ask people politely you still get the ones who carry on posting their usual tripe.

MJ was such a big media figure, with enormous popularity you'll always get the ones who try to dispute he wasn't.

Latest News :
He's still dead

Latest News :
He's still dead

Thanks wibbles, Proves my above point totally.

Hundreds of MJ fans gathered outside the O2 Arena last night to pay their respects to him.

A minute’s silence at 6.30pm marked the time when the doors to the concert would have opened. Fans also signed a memorial wall while impromptu performances were given on a stage as footage of Jackson was broadcast on television screens.

It should also feature clips of Jackson in his heyday, and footage of his rehearsals for the 50-show residency AEG had planned for the O2 this summer.

A Jackson tribute concert at London's O2 arena is due to be announced within days, with Leona Lewis, Usher, Ne-Yo and Justin Timberlake being approached by promoters AEG Live to perform his hits. The one-off gig is due to go ahead on August 29, when Jackson would have turned 51.