As mentioned in an Observer article (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1096375,00.html) today. Anti-Social Behaviour Orders are not going to succeed for obvious reasons.

There's also a fair assessment of the reasons behind the problems of estates like Sheffield's Manor, ...and now the council are set to abandon Parson Cross.

ß

Where is the link.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1096375,00.html

I can see it in my original post :confused:

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Wow, quite an article :sad:

No, turning Vigilante gangs against gangs of anti-social morons just makes the Vigilante gangs as bad as those they're fighting against IMO.

Originally posted by Rich
No, turning Vigilante gangs against gangs of anti-social morons just makes the Vigilante gangs as bad as those they're fighting against IMO.

...so what's the solution? More ABSOs?

No.

Just give those anti-social kids more to do when they're not at school, college or whatever, and they don't have any time to mess about making nuisances of themselves.

But this country's education system is in such a mess nowadays thanks to the likes of David Blunkett, that half of them can't even write or do basic maths so how can they get jobs or do college?!

My thoughts are that if the police can't make ABSOs stick because of witness intimidation these guys who want to be vigilantes should arm themselves with video cameras and spotlights instead of baseball bats.

Name and shame the worst offenders on local TV to make the parents and the parents' peer groups aware of who the culprits are. Too much of this anti-social behaviour is hidden away on the inside pages of the local paper and remains largely unnoticed.

I never dreamed I would feel like this but if a group came to me and said we are going to sort out the problems in our area by any means necessary i.e. violence etc.then I would be inclined to join.

Where I live we are plagued by gangs of youths congregating inside our homes (foyer) smashing things up, smoking weed, graffitting, and actually sh*tting in the shute area where we have to go to put our rubbish.

We had them outside our homes last night going crazy, it was after 11pm when most working people are in bed. They were screaming up to the flat where a girl lives who is the cause of all this, she uses her flat for a scummers meeting place not the council care. The police didn't arrest them even thought they were quite clearly breaching the peace and many were high as kites and drunk.

Most people here are at the end of their tethers, we don't know what else to do. We have contacted our councillor and written a million letters to the council and nothing changes. The girl in question has had over 30 complaints about her and her "friends" behaviour but she is still here!!!

I would welcome a viligante group. What these yobs need is to be shown the same level of intimidation and disgusting behaviour that they show us, not more do gooders saying "Oh give the poor mites something to do then they'll stop shouting abuse at old people and sh*tting outside your homes".

So you want people to go around smashing 14 year old kids teeth in with a baseball bat - good idea :loopy:

fnky obviously it isn't ideal and I really am not a violent person BUT what else can people do?

The police are doing nothing, the council are doing nothing! These kids, in fact I don't know why I call them kids because they aren't really. They may be at an age where they could be described as kids but they certainly don't act like it.

Anyway these "kids" laugh at us, they know they are untouchable, they threaten, intimidate, abuse and harass people even elderly ladies. They don't think twice about acting like that why should we think twice about giving them a taste of their own medicine?

If you have any answers on how to stop them carrying out their reign of misery then please I'm all ears...

Oh and don't say give them something to do because they have had loads of stuff, they've had a youth club they got plastered abused the workers and forced it to close. They've had a play area/meeting place in the park built for them, they tried to burn it down. They've had youth workers come and talk to them and try to get them involved with community projects they abused them and didn't want to know. So please let me hear your ideas?

Well personally I tell them to **** off and they do. I grew up in a 'rough' area and they really don't bother me. People need to stand up for themselves without caving a minor's head in with a bat - it's like bullies at school - if you stand up for yourself they get bored and move on. It's all about intimidation, if they know they can then they will continue to do so, if not they'll find something else to do. If you intimidate them they'll **** themselves and leave you alone.

As for giving them something to do - if you give them something they'll enjoy unlike a youth club where they are expected to learn to paint or some other **** then maybe you'll get somewhere.

But it seems the only thing they want to do is get smashed/drunk and destroy anything in their path. What else can we give them to do?

Also saying stand up to them and they'll get bored is crap I'm afraid. Lots of us have done just that and they haven't got bored it has only made things worse. They are not scared of anyone.

There's loads of things you can give them to do - arrange football teams/matches. Try and sort out some local mechanics training etc. Something they will be interested in and hopefully will be useful to them in the future. Believe it or not most of those kids don't want to be a trouble causing little **** for the rest of their lives but if that's what they have grown up around then it's hardly surprising they take that road. They need showing there is more to life than standing on street corners. I know what it's like I've been there.

If you don't feel comfortable in confronting them yourself then get a few big blokes together to get hold of them and put them in their place - they will get scared and will pay attention. It's the threat of the beating that scares them not the beating itself. A lot can be achieved without hospitalising them.

fnky believe me i hear what you are saying and perhaps when you were standing on the street corners causing trouble you didn;t really want to and you did want someone to come and offer you an alternative. However just in the past 5-6 years things have changed dramatically. It is not just young lads that are causing havoc but young girls aswell and believe you me they are not the sort of girl you can talk to, they are interested in nothing but trouble.

One young lad who is causing the trouble really is awful, he is responsible for a taxi boycott in the area because he keeps throwing bricks at them. You say hello to him and try to show him some respect he sticks the rods up at you and tells you to eff off. He is 11 years old and smokes weed and gets drunk. Yes I know his parents are to blame because I know them. They also take drugs and get drunk all the time, in fact his mother is a nutter who is regularly in court for violent assault.

This is the problem nobody is willing to say anything to the kids because all of their parents are the local hard nuts. If you dare say anything to the kids you'll get the parents round threatening to kill you. Basically your life would not be worth living in the area, you would be better off moving.

Another of the kids a 15 year old girl goes out pubbing and clubbing with her mother, she doesn't attend school because she's busy learning her mothers trade: shop lifting.

A few years back I thought the same way as you but when you have to live with this crap day after day week after week it starts to wear you down. Most of the time now I just turn up my TV so I can't hear them screaming and fighting. Every weekend I look out of my window to see the kids systematically smashing up the bus stop and phone box, you call the police they don't turn up or they do but the kids have gone. It's the same story nearly every week.

The only choice left for most of us is to leave the area we have grown up in and make a life somewhere new. Unforutantly for a lot of the elderly people they have no choice but to stay and put up with their windows being egged and bricked all the time.

We had a small group of youngsters taking drugs near me and the police never came so it was up to residents to do something, Cameras are the answer, they DO NOT like being identified, I approached some of the group while they were in another location,so they were`nt aware of who I was and pulled out my little olympus and they immediately vanished, no backchat, just gone, so when they appeared in my neighbourhood I went out with my camera and we hav`nt seen them since, that was about nine mnths ago

No it was just as bad when I was a kid - we used to get up to the same things they do now, people just look at the past through rose tinted spectacles. Yes girls were trouble causers back then and yes most of us enjoyed getting stoned and drunk too. It's not big and it's not clever but it happened and there isn't much I can do about it now.

As the man above stated cameras can be the answer for them to stop hassling you but it's only going to move the problem on. The key is to keep them happy, if they find something to do that they enjoy they'd pick that over standing on a corner in the rain any day.

A bit off topic but has anyone been watching The Corner on C4 Tuesday nights? Great program looking at the social and economic problems in a run down area of the US?

hello all! My name is Prash, i;m a sstudent at the University Of Sheffield. As part of my project I am looking at anti-social behaviuor in the Manor and other areas around the Parkway- does anyone have any accounts of any incidence's of anti-social behaviour in these areas? What do think caused it? What would you like seen to prevent/combat it? Is there a reason why some areas are afflicted by this problem more then others? any feedback would be most welcome. ARA97PSS@sheffield.ac.uk

-Prash
:-)

Steelblade- What area is this that you think is so bad?

This forum is nothing but bitter whiner's.. get a hobby FFS, you're only bothered about what these kids are doing because you have nothing better to do yourself.

Originally posted by GazB
Steelblade- What area is this that you think is so bad?

This forum is nothing but bitter whiner's.. get a hobby FFS, you're only bothered about what these kids are doing because you have nothing better to do yourself.
This is extremely offensive.

I've spoken to the councillors concerned and can support steelblade's assertion about the problems round where she lives. The police, community leaders and the councillors are all working in concert to try and find a solution to the youth problem.

If anyone has any sensible, legal, ideas post them on here.

Being only 18 myself I remember what it was like being a 'bored youth' as it was only a few years ago.. I can say that the thing that I was lacking was motivation to do something constructive, just like all these kids you are so quick to put down.

Let me guess, you were all sweet cherubs that obeyed every command issued by parents/adults? I think not..

Take a look in the mirror and think what you were doing, and what you needed to motivate you, when you were a youth.

Originally posted by GazB
I was lacking was motivation to do something constructive...

Let me guess, you were all sweet cherubs that obeyed every command issued by parents/adults? I think not..

Take a look in the mirror and think what you were doing, and what you needed to motivate you, when you were a youth.

What motivated us when we were younger? Err, well probably some of us wanted to do something with our lives, get a job and contribute to society.

So we'd go to the library and college instead of hanging out on the streets all night, committing crimes and getting into trouble with Police

Originally posted by Abby
What motivated us when we were younger? Err, well probably some of us wanted to do something with our lives, get a job and contribute to society.

So we'd go to the library and college instead of hanging out on the streets all night, committing crimes and getting into trouble with Police

Now try answering without talking out of your arse. Apart from perhaps the Royal Family, no child/youth thinks "When I grow up, I want to contribute to society".

You're not kidding anyone but yourself...

I have not said I was an angel when I was growing up BUT I did not: ****e outside peoples front doors, graffitti their homes, abuse old people, throw bricks at passing taxis causing a taxi boycott in the area, throw bricks at bus windows potentially endangering people's lives, cause enough of a racket outside people's homes so the police are called, i did not set rubbish shutes on fire, again endangering people's lives, blow phone boxes up nearly killing or seriously maiming an innocent passer by, pull post out of the mail box which could be something extremely important.

Gaz I am not a busy body just a ****ed off resident who is sick to the back teeth of watching the area she grew up in become and absolute ****e hole because of the council's reluctance to evict known trouble makers and their wonderful offspring.

Originally posted by GazB
Now try answering without talking out of your arse. Apart from perhaps the Royal Family, no child/youth thinks "When I grow up, I want to contribute to society".

You're not kidding anyone but yourself...

Am I kidding? Do you know me? Tell us more about your mate with the ASBO - I see you've removed that post. How'd he get it exactly?

You see I had a choice. I could end up like him, and become an embarassment to my family, or I could do something with my life.

I chose wisely :D

Max I can't remember if I told you, but I did contact that lady you told me about and she was really supportive and helpful so thanks for that.

unfortuantly as I've said not much has changed but we have all noticed a stronger police presence in the area. In fact my friend was stopped by them on his way to the shops and asked for his details. He said it was the first time he was happy for the police to be asking his details, it shows they are trying to do something and we can't ask for more than that.

Originally posted by Abby
Am I kidding? Do you know me? Tell us more about your mate with the ASBO - I see you've removed that post. How'd he get it exactly?

You see I had a choice. I could end up like him, and become an embarassment to my family, or I could do something with my life.

I chose wisely :D

Maybe you'd like to meet him and say to his face that he is an embarassment to his family? No? Didn't think so.

Edited :(

Abby watch out mate, he might be one of them fake burberry capped tracksuit wearing "hard" lads.

Mod hat on.

Can we please cool it on this thread. I've had to edit one post already. I've got a keyboard and I'm not afraid to use it.

Originally posted by steelblade
Abby watch out mate, he might be one of them fake burberry capped tracksuit wearing "hard" lads.

Give it a rest and put your apron back on darling.

Originally posted by max
Mod hat on.

Can we please cool it on this thread. I've had to edit one post already. I've got a keyboard and I'm not afraid to use it.

Understood :)

Originally posted by GazB
Give it a rest and put your apron back on darling.


LOL

Right reading through this thread am I expected to believe that only me and GazB did anything wrong as kids? You must have been some weird kids as every one I know of has done something wrong at some point. Well either that or someone's telling porkies.

I don't think ppl are say they've never done owt wrong, just not things like kids are doing now.

Why what new crime have they invented? Kids have and will continue to be abusive, steal cars, beat each other senseless, set fire to things etc.

Originally posted by fnkysknky
Why what new crime have they invented? Kids have and will continue to be abusive, steal cars, beat each other senseless, set fire to things etc.

Ho ho, your posts really brighten my day!

I didn't do any of those things, because firstly I couldn't see any benefit in them and secondly, my parents would have died of shame (after killing me first, of course).

I was replying to steelblade, asking her what crimes these kids are committing that they never used to... I was not saying that you have committed those crimes.

For one, when I was younger I am sure I never heard of anyone blowing things up ie. phone boxes, with fireworks. Did you?

Originally posted by fnkysknky
Why what new crime have they invented? Kids have and will continue to be abusive, steal cars, beat each other senseless, set fire to things etc.
I feel as if I missed out as a kid. The most heinous crime I committed was pinching chocolate bars. Even more embarrassingly, I used to buy one, to cover up the crime, and take two.:blush:

Max, I think this admission calls into question your credentials as a responsible moderator. I call for your resignation.

Originally posted by max
I feel as if I missed out as a kid. The most heinous crime I committed was pinching chocolate bars. Even more embarrassingly, I used to buy one, to cover up the crime, and take two.:blush:

Originally posted by steelblade
For one, when I was younger I am sure I never heard of anyone blowing things up ie. phone boxes, with fireworks. Did you?

Yes I did, it was a pretty regular occurence come Bonfire Night.

Originally posted by Abby
What motivated us when we were younger? Err, well probably some of us wanted to do something with our lives, get a job and contribute to society.

Speak for yourself. That might apply to you and t020, but that means you were born middle aged.

What motivated me as a kid? Excitement, blowing things up, illicit porn and alcohol, bangers, dropping things from high up (esp McDonalds thick shakes), breaking things.

However, I always strictly obeyed the 11th commandment.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Speak for yourself. That might apply to you and t020, but that means you were born middle aged.

You have upset me now :(


However, I always strictly obeyed the 11th commandment.

Do not admit adultery?

Humour thy mother and father?

Keep the Sabbath wholly?

Originally posted by Abby
You have upset me now :(



Do not admit adultery?

Humour thy mother and father?

Keep the Sabbath wholly?

The 11th Commandment - the most important one of all:

Thou shalt not get caught.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Speak for yourself. That might apply to you and t020, but that means you were born middle aged.

What motivated me as a kid? Excitement, blowing things up, illicit porn and alcohol, bangers, dropping things from high up (esp McDonalds thick shakes), breaking things.

However, I always strictly obeyed the 11th commandment.

Yep that sounds about spot on.

As the one who started this thread perhaps I should admit to my own misdemeanours.

We had fun with fireworks - but no more than seeing how high into the air we could get a tin can, or shoving a couple of bangers down a wasp's nest. One lad at school set off a jumping jack in morning assembly and honourably owned up to it when we were all faced with an hour's detention.

My first and last crime was pinching a fountain pen in Woolies (when it was in Waingate where Wilko is now), I got caught and unfortunately for me the store manager knew the headmistress of my school. She called me up on the stage in assembly the following Monday morning, got hold of me by the collar an announced to all that "This boy is a thief !" I got three strokes of the cane from her and a beating from my mother, but stole no more...and the shame hurt more than the physical punishment.

This was in the was in the late forties/early fifties when of course there was no TV, no teenage pop-culture, the good things in life were rationed, very few cars, an innate respect for old people, a strong and binding community spirit (especially in the poorer districts) etc etc.

The monstrous vendettas modern kids inflict on any adult in their community who protests at their unruly and often criminal behaviour just wouldn't have occurred when I was a child. But then Borstal school was the punishment for wilfully disruptive kids and I believe flogging (the birch) was the punishment for crimes of serious juvenile violence.

I know it is difficult for parents of today to understand the outrage felt by we old 'uns to the behaviour of their kids, but people of my age were brought up on the ethic of "do unto others as you would have others do unto you".

This is an ancient code of living, adopted certainly by Christianty but it goes much further back than that and you don't need to be at all religious to see the common sense of it. It has worked for me and I'm proud (but not self-righteously so) that instilling this ethic into my own children and they theirs, has kept them all on the path of common decency and respect for others.

I would be very interested in whether people think the abandonment of corporal punshiment in schools (and in the home too) has had a significant effect on kid's behaviour.

In my day it was apple scrumping. As for scrumping, now if I was a gentleman I MIGHT admit to an odd excursion or two or possbily more. ;)

Originally posted by steelblade
fnky believe me i hear what you are saying and perhaps when you were standing on the street corners causing trouble you didn;t really want to and you did want someone to come and offer you an alternative. However just in the past 5-6 years things have changed dramatically. It is not just young lads that are causing havoc but young girls aswell and believe you me they are not the sort of girl you can talk to, they are interested in nothing but trouble.

One young lad who is causing the trouble really is awful, he is responsible for a taxi boycott in the area because he keeps throwing bricks at them. You say hello to him and try to show him some respect he sticks the rods up at you and tells you to eff off. He is 11 years old and smokes weed and gets drunk. Yes I know his parents are to blame because I know them. They also take drugs and get drunk all the time, in fact his mother is a nutter who is regularly in court for violent assault.

This is the problem nobody is willing to say anything to the kids because all of their parents are the local hard nuts. If you dare say anything to the kids you'll get the parents round threatening to kill you. Basically your life would not be worth living in the area, you would be better off moving.

Another of the kids a 15 year old girl goes out pubbing and clubbing with her mother, she doesn't attend school because she's busy learning her mothers trade: shop lifting.

A few years back I thought the same way as you but when you have to live with this crap day after day week after week it starts to wear you down. Most of the time now I just turn up my TV so I can't hear them screaming and fighting. Every weekend I look out of my window to see the kids systematically smashing up the bus stop and phone box, you call the police they don't turn up or they do but the kids have gone. It's the same story nearly every week.

The only choice left for most of us is to leave the area we have grown up in and make a life somewhere new. Unforutantly for a lot of the elderly people they have no choice but to stay and put up with their windows being egged and bricked all the time.

I must say you seem very well informed on the age. sex and activities of these individuals. am I safe to assume you know the cuplprits well.
To state a 15 yr old goes clubbing with her mother and an 11 yr old old smokes weed are quite damming statements.
Comments like this can be used by these people to turn the tables on there victims,and they go crying to the council and the police then its you thats the bad egg.

As said by others, if these idiots know you are afraid of them,then bingo they have won and will keep winning.
Stoving their skulls in,as good as it sounds sadly is not the answer,remember when these vigulante groups are formed it will be the same mindless morons that harass you now that are its founders.

All this will do is find a way to justify what they do

When my 2 year old kept sticking his finger in plug sockets I tried to tell him it was naughty and it would hurt him. I tried to reason with him and explain but at 2 years old he simply didn't get it. He didn't understand what "it could kill you" meant or that it scared me and his mum, that we worried, that we didn't even like to leave the room because of it.

He didn't do it because he "didn't have anything to do" (he's got hundreds of toys, games, videos and a "full-time" mum and sister to play with). The first time he did it was no doubt out of curiosity but after that it was because he wasn't allowed to. It became exciting, daring and fun. He did it because he thought it made him look big and clever in front of his sister. He also did it to test us.

I tried distraction tactics - "look, play with this" - but it didn't work. So I tried punishing him by taking away his toys and putting him to bed. That didn't work either. Eventually, I smacked him on the wrist. I then smacked him every time he did it until he eventually stopped doing it.

By smacking him I broke my own no smacking rule. I don't want to teach my kids that you can solve things through violence but at the end of the day it was important that he didn't win this battle and that he learn that when daddy says "NO!!" he must do as he is told. It's not just about making my life more bearable, it's about protecting him from himself.

To my mind it's the same for these "anti-social" kids. They simply don't understand (or care) how their behaviour makes people feel or how it will effect their long-term future.

If the usual taking away of toys and sending them to their rooms doesn't work then it is time for more drastic action. The consequences need to quickly get harsher until "the time is no longer worth the crime".

If society (schools, councils, police, courts etc) are unable or unwilling to dish out consequences that have the necessary effect, then people will eventually take matters into their own hands. Whether you think this is right or wrong does really matter - this is a consequence of not having consequences.

Originally posted by Zamo
When my 2 year old kept sticking his finger in plug sockets I tried to tell him it was naughty and it would hurt him.

He did it because he thought it made him look big and clever in front of his sister. He also did it to test us.

A 2 year old showing off? There's a first for everything :)

My uncle who is now a renowned Professor was constantly in trouble for arson when he was a kid