it worked once in History... (apprently,sounds good though)

Once in U.S. history an episode of Islamic terrorism was very quickly stopped. It happened in the Philippines about 1911, when Gen. John J. Pershing was in command of the garrison. There had been numerous Islamic terrorist attacks, so "Black Jack" told his boys to catch the perps and teach them a lesson.

Forced to dig their own graves, the terrorists were all tied to posts, execution style. The U.S. soldiers then brought in pigs and slaughtered them, rubbing their bullets in the blood and fat. Thus, the terrorists were terrorized; they saw that they would be contaminated with hogs' blood. This would mean that they could not enter Heaven, even if they died as terrorist martyrs.

All but one was shot, their bodies dumped into the grave, and the hog guts dumped atop the bodies. The lone survivor was allowed to escape back to the terrorist camp and tell his brethren what happened to the others. This brought a stop to terrorism in the Philippines for the next 50 years.

Pointing a gun into the face of Islamic terrorists won't make them flinch.

They welcome the chance to die for Allah. Like Gen. Pershing, we must show them that they won't get to Muslim heaven (which they believe has an endless supply of virgins) but instead will die with the hated pigs of the devil

Originally posted by kirky
it worked once in History... (apprently,sounds good though)

Once in U.S. history an episode of Islamic terrorism was very quickly stopped. It happened in the Philippines about 1911, when Gen. John J. Pershing was in command of the garrison. There had been numerous Islamic terrorist attacks, so "Black Jack" told his boys to catch the perps and teach them a lesson.

Forced to dig their own graves, the terrorists were all tied to posts, execution style. The U.S. soldiers then brought in pigs and slaughtered them, rubbing their bullets in the blood and fat. Thus, the terrorists were terrorized; they saw that they would be contaminated with hogs' blood. This would mean that they could not enter Heaven, even if they died as terrorist martyrs.

All but one was shot, their bodies dumped into the grave, and the hog guts dumped atop the bodies. The lone survivor was allowed to escape back to the terrorist camp and tell his brethren what happened to the others. This brought a stop to terrorism in the Philippines for the next 50 years.

Pointing a gun into the face of Islamic terrorists won't make them flinch.

They welcome the chance to die for Allah. Like Gen. Pershing, we must show them that they won't get to Muslim heaven (which they believe has an endless supply of virgins) but instead will die with the hated pigs of the devil I'm glad things have moved on a little since then. We don't believe in torture any more thankfully or we would look as bad as the terrorists and contradict everything we stand for.

Mod:

New thread continuing the discussion on the ramifications of the London Bombings.

The original thread can be found here (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48493) .

Now we know we have homegrown bombers, I'm concerned about the prospect of them being suicide bombers.

Given that on 9/11 it appears that several of the terrorists involved didn't appear to realise they were on one way trips, I wonder whether these guys knew that they were on a suicide mission?

Could the people who built the bombs have lied and said that, for example, they had a 10 minute delay when they actually had no time at all?

Of course, it could be that they were genuine suicide bombers, and in that case how the hell have we managed to generate a generation of youth so disaffected with this society thet they will kill themselves and other people in such a way?

Joe

Why do we always have to discuss topics on Joe Pritchard's terms rather than let a thread evolve naturally?

A light touch with moderation works wonders. I can understand why abusive posts should be pulled, but there's an element of the control freak at work here which I don't see on other forums I participate in,

Alastair

On a slightly different tack, - is anyone else a little perturbed about the way the police have delayed the release of the ID of so many of those killed. It seems pretty insensitive to me when they can appear so positive about the ID of the bombers.

The relatives of the 'missing' must be at the end of their tether.

Originally posted by PottShrigley
Why do we always have to discuss topics on Joe Pritchard's terms rather than let a thread evolve naturally?

A light touch with moderation works wonders. I can understand why abusive posts should be pulled, but there's an element of the control freak at work here which I don't see on other forums I participate in,

Alastair

Erm....

Not sure I get your point. I didn't close the other thread, and am posting here as a forum member, not a Mod. I have the right to post on topics, just as you do.

If you object to how I moderate or what I post, then report me to Geoff.

Joe

Originally posted by PottShrigley
Why do we always have to discuss topics on Joe Pritchard's terms rather than let a thread evolve naturally?

A light touch with moderation works wonders. I can understand why abusive posts should be pulled, but there's an element of the control freak at work here which I don't see on other forums I participate in,

Alastair


i know this is supposed to be a forum were we can all express our own views..

but hey its there site......lol

anyway, the london bombings were not called for at all...

i cant believe ( well actually i can ) that they were sleepers living in our country for years,

there could be terrorists everywere around us and we wouldn't even know it.

i hate this country

Originally posted by paulprh


i cant believe ( well actually i can ) that they were sleepers living in our country for years,

there could be terrorists everywere around us and we wouldn't even know it.


I have family living in Burley and recognised some of the backgrounds to todays news footage. Very scarey.

It is weird, though, to think that you might have passed by these houses, maybe even seen these people without realising.

Very odd.

Joe

Originally posted by paulprh


i cant believe ( well actually i can ) that they were sleepers living in our country for years,

there could be terrorists everywere around us and we wouldn't even know it.

i hate this country

I don't believe they were what you call 'sleepers' It seems more likely that they're young disaffected Muslims, born and bred here, who have had the meaning of their faith perverted by extremists.

We have been too tolerant of religious radicals, both home-grown and from abroad preaching their murderous gospel under the protection of our 'freedom of speech' ethic.

The religious incitement bill, much as I dislike it's sloppy 'catch-all' approach, will hopefully prove a double-edged sword and allow the radicals to be silenced.

I have to say I oppose the new bill to silence the releigous debate,everyone is entitled to thier opinion,including those I despise.

Originally posted by Greybeard
On a slightly different tack, - is anyone else a little perturbed about the way the police have delayed the release of the ID of so many of those killed. It seems pretty insensitive to me when they can appear so positive about the ID of the bombers.

The relatives of the 'missing' must be at the end of their tether.

The identities of those killed have not been released to the press to give police time to inform the families - otherwise relatives may find out about their loss from the tv, and that would be very insensitive indeed (and has happened in the past.)

Originally posted by royjames
I have to say I oppose the new bill to silence the releigous debate,everyone is entitled to thier opinion,including those I despise.

When it comes to incitement to hatred based on 'opinion', there are some Muslim clerics as dedicated as the BNP. Hopefully both sides will be made to see the error of their ways.

Originally posted by Sheffette
The identities of those killed have not been released to the press to give police time to inform the families - otherwise relatives may find out about their loss from the tv, and that would be very insensitive indeed (and has happened in the past.)

I was aiming at the time the police are taking to inform the families. If the police are able to identify the bombers from documents found at the sites of the explosions it seems reasonable to assume they are able to do the same for the victims.

Originally posted by Greybeard
On a slightly different tack, - is anyone else a little perturbed about the way the police have delayed the release of the ID of so many of those killed. It seems pretty insensitive to me when they can appear so positive about the ID of the bombers.

The relatives of the 'missing' must be at the end of their tether.

Whilst it may seem insensitive, the process is actually extremely sensitive.

I have some training and, sadly, actual experience in assisting relatives and pathologists in the process of identifying dead bodies, where multiple deaths occurred.

It is a harrowing task. Relatives will have already supplied details of a physical description of their missing family members, including any distinguishing marks (scars, tattoos, etc.), clothing, jewelry and personal possessions. DNA samples (hair especially) will probably be used as well.

These will be matched against bodies, and the numerous body parts. Wherever possible, a relative will be asked to identify the body. However, this identification procedure will be dispensed with where the state of the body is literally too gruesome to view (disfigurement, severe burns, charred corpses, separate body parts).

The bomb sites are scenes of crime. These will be carefully combed by scenes of crimes officers, who will note positions of bodies, body parts and personal possessions prior to removal.
Witness statements from surviviors and onlookers will be taken, and cross-referenced - in order to build up a comprehensive picture of where victims were located when the bombs exploded.

Many people will have reported missing persons, who they suspect may have been victims. Some of these people will not have been victims. Some will not even have been in London. It is essential therefore that bodies, and remains of bodies, are acurately identified. Then, and only then, will relatives receive definite confirmation of the deceased.

In my actual experience (Zeebrugge ferry disaster, 187 dead) I assisted 3 relatives in completing the identification forms, each of which took 5 hours to complete. Based on information supplied, we were taken to a makeshift morgue to make visual identification. In one case, despite all the matching that took place, we were shown the wrong body. This was extremely distressing for the family member concerned, a 21yr. old man, who expected to identify the body of his mother. Coronors, pathologists and the police will be acting with the utmost sensitivity in order to avoid identification mistakes occuring, which can only add to the grief of relatives.

I don't know where my posts have gone.

Here's the most likely 'take' on it:


http://www.onlinejournal.com/Commentary/070805Leonard/070805leonard.html


Also these:

<http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8496293/>

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/alqmaryland.html

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/july2005/090705bombingexercises.htm
http://www.infowars.com/


JoeP, you're not being very welcome. Despite the wishes of those who rule us, we on the bottom still believe in freedom of speech.

Chill out, man.

It's odd that George W. Crackmonkey and his secret service are in the country trying to avoid talking about the enviroment and tryng to gain support for his war on shadows when 'pow' 4 bombs go of in a heavily populated area and only kill 50 odd people.
Just enough to get the people scared enough to jump on the war band waggon and get Tony away from the G8 table and any need for confontation with his 'i'll make you an offer you can't refuse' buddy.
The yanks now have free reign to stamp their right wing puritanical, oil guzzling(bomb'n'bullets is made from oil y'know), fascist stupid ways on the rest of the world.
9/11 is a home grown reason to take over the world.

Guess you don't like us much Rubber! Hope the foaming at the mouth eases in a while.Perhaps we'll send a nice FBI agent over to tuck you into bed. Gnight.

Don't worry about RUBBER too much buck. He'll probably feel differently about things when he reaches puberty ;)

Mod. Note

Misc. postings from the 'main' London Bombings thread bought in here.

Thanks,

Joe

Originally posted by paulprh
.

i hate this country

go live else where then,its not the country you should hate its the filthy scum that threaten our way of life.

the police and inteligence services appear to be moving very fast in tracing the london bombers,but do you think they give out to much information about how they managed to trace the bombers to leeds.

on this mornings news they reported that they traced them through bank cards and driving licences that had been found,
surely this will cause the next nutter thinking of using a bomb to ensure that they carry no id on them or even carry false id,s to confuse the authorites even more.

when 9/11 happened we were told that the terrorists were identified by similar things but it was later shown that some of the owners were still alive and living abroad.

Depoix,

I was gobsmacked about this - they might be fake ID but 'professionals' go so far as to strip the labels out of clothes and shoes, sometiems even buying clothes abroad for the job.

They'd never carry anything that could identify them or any part of their cell.

Very weird. Either very amateurish, or they expected to need their documents after the event. As you don't need a credit card to get to Heaven I do wonder whether they thought they were coming back.

Joe

Originally posted by royjames
I have to say I oppose the new bill to silence the releigous debate,everyone is entitled to thier opinion,including those I despise.

the bill isn't supposed too and won't stifle religious debate. It will do what it's aimed too and stop the incitement of hatred due to religion.

Originally posted by JoePritchard
Depoix,

I was gobsmacked about this - they might be fake ID but 'professionals' go so far as to strip the labels out of clothes and shoes, sometiems even buying clothes abroad for the job.

They'd never carry anything that could identify them or any part of their cell.

Very weird. Either very amateurish, or they expected to need their documents after the event. As you don't need a credit card to get to Heaven I do wonder whether they thought they were coming back.

Joe

Here's a theory about this, from

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1527324,00.html ...

"More deeply, these men will have hoped their deaths will endure. One detail was striking in yesterday's police briefing: it was that property identifying the men was found in each location, including items belonging to one man found at both Aldgate and Edgware Road stations. That cannot have been an accident. It suggests these killers wanted their names to be known; they were proud of what they did.

It is hardly a surprise. For the suicide bomber aims to be a martyr, his face burned on to a thousand webpages, his action a model to be emulated. Who knows, perhaps a video - like those released by the men of Hamas and Islamic Jihad - is waiting to be found in one of those Leeds homes."

Originally posted by JoePritchard
Depoix,

I was gobsmacked about this - they might be fake ID but 'professionals' go so far as to strip the labels out of clothes and shoes, sometiems even buying clothes abroad for the job.

They'd never carry anything that could identify them or any part of their cell.

Very weird. Either very amateurish, or they expected to need their documents after the event. As you don't need a credit card to get to Heaven I do wonder whether they thought they were coming back.

Joe exactly joe,and no mention of farewell notes,parties etc,i want these bombers caught but i wouldnt like a repeat of such mess ups as the men who were falsely imprisoned for bombings they never did,i hope the authorities take their time and get it right,it just seems strange that they were able to obtain explosives,construct the bombs yet still be carrying i d,surely they understood that their families would be investigated once their own identities were discovered

If you are looking for new conspiracy theories, a caller to the Islam Channel on cable TV last night was speculating that the bombs had been planted by the French in retaliation for not getting the Olympics.

Originally posted by JoePritchard
Depoix,

I was gobsmacked about this - they might be fake ID but 'professionals' go so far as to strip the labels out of clothes and shoes, sometiems even buying clothes abroad for the job.

They'd never carry anything that could identify them or any part of their cell.

Very weird. Either very amateurish, or they expected to need their documents after the event. As you don't need a credit card to get to Heaven I do wonder whether they thought they were coming back.

Joe

perhaps they wernt informed it was a one way journey.....

Originally posted by kirky
go live else where then,its not the country you should hate its the filthy scum that threaten our way of life.


i know ur right, this is a nice country without the scum

Originally posted by LordChaverly
If you are looking for new conspiracy theories, a caller to the Islam Channel on cable TV last night was speculating that the bombs had been planted by the French in retaliation for not getting the Olympics.

LOL, YEAH OK..

who you kidding.

we all know who was behind it per usual

Originally posted by JoePritchard
I have family living in Burley and recognised some of the backgrounds to todays news footage. Very scarey.

It is weird, though, to think that you might have passed by these houses, maybe even seen these people without realising.

Very odd.

Joe

exactly, but if the government was tighter and they did severve background checks etc we would have this. either stop them all together from coming here or at least find more out about them first and if they cant they dont come here..


see joe you could have known this person, dont u feel unsafe were you live as there could be hundreds around you and you wouldnt even know

Originally posted by Greybeard
I don't believe they were what you call 'sleepers' It seems more likely that they're young disaffected Muslims, born and bred here, who have had the meaning of their faith perverted by extremists.

We have been too tolerant of religious radicals, both home-grown and from abroad preaching their murderous gospel under the protection of our 'freedom of speech' ethic.

The religious incitement bill, much as I dislike it's sloppy 'catch-all' approach, will hopefully prove a double-edged sword and allow the radicals to be silenced.

so what would you call it then??

they have lived here years as ordinary people, planning and having opportunitys to blow stuff up..

if a terrorist expert on ITV & CNN news says it was a sleeper i think id rather listen to them. as they are experts

Statement issued by South Yorkshire Police......

At South Yorkshire Police we have long established and strong links with all our communities and we stress that no faith or religion sanctions or indeed allows attacks on innocent people like the ones seen in London last week.

We have confidence that the people of South Yorkshire also understand this and will continue to stand united in the face of this adversity. Any division in our community will play in to the hands of those who wish to destroy our way of life.

We are pleased to say that we do not have any reports of incidents linked to events in London. Of course, as ever, if we do become aware of any incidents we will deal with them robustly and not allow ignorance and prejudice to prevail.

No one in our community should ever have fear of being stigmatised or targeted because of their faith, creed or ethnicity and we are committed to providing the right level of support to reassure everyone that they are being protected.

We can understand that people may have genuine concerns about the current climate in relation to terrorism. We reiterate that there is no specific threat to South Yorkshire. We will continue to provide high visibility patrols to reassure the public and people can be assured that the safety and security of South Yorkshire people remains our utmost concern.

The public can help us by remaining calm, resilient and measured, but vigilant.

Statement Ends.

Originally posted by paulprh
exactly, but if the government was tighter and they did severve background checks etc we would have this. either stop them all together from coming here or at least find more out about them first and if they cant they dont come here..


see joe you could have known this person, dont u feel unsafe were you live as there could be hundreds around you and you wouldnt even know

they were born here. So are we to do severe background checks on newborns and determine that indeed they are British.

A sleeper means that they came here with that intention and blend in for years until necessary to be activated.
A traitor would be a closer description and is what they would have been called were this the cold war and they'd blown something up for the other superpower.

Originally posted by paulprh
exactly, but if the government was tighter and they did severve background checks etc we would have this. either stop them all together from coming here or at least find more out about them first and if they cant they dont come here..


see joe you could have known this person, dont u feel unsafe were you live as there could be hundreds around you and you wouldnt even know

These were people who were BORN in the UK! they're here already, I'm afraid, and have a right to be by birth.

I was a teenager in the 1970s; then we were dealing with the IRA and the same argument applied to anyone who lived in a city with a large Irish population.

It wasn't a good argument then, either.

It is scary but running around being terrified is not the way to deal with it.

Joe

Originally posted by Cyclone
they were born here. So are we to do severe background checks on newborns and determine that indeed they are British.

A sleeper means that they came here with that intention and blend in for years until necessary to be activated.
A traitor would be a closer description and is what they would have been called were this the cold war and they'd blown something up for the other superpower. not necesserally,they were groomed for the job,and ordered to lay in wait until ordered to move,i would think that to get a young lad to blow him self to pieces for a cause would take hours of brain washing and indoctrination,if not months,and it must be done by some one the guy respects, and looks up to,i cant imagine a stranger bieng able to exert pressure like that,it has to be some one that is respected in the comunity,some one who can use familiarity to gain the confidence of the young men,

Originally posted by kirky
it worked once in History... (apprently,sounds good though)

Once in U.S. history an episode of Islamic terrorism was very quickly stopped. It happened in the Philippines about 1911, when Gen. John J. Pershing was in command of the garrison. There had been numerous Islamic terrorist attacks, so "Black Jack" told his boys to catch the perps and teach them a lesson.

Forced to dig their own graves, the terrorists were all tied to posts, execution style. The U.S. soldiers then brought in pigs and slaughtered them, rubbing their bullets in the blood and fat. Thus, the terrorists were terrorized; they saw that they would be contaminated with hogs' blood. This would mean that they could not enter Heaven, even if they died as terrorist martyrs.

All but one was shot, their bodies dumped into the grave, and the hog guts dumped atop the bodies. The lone survivor was allowed to escape back to the terrorist camp and tell his brethren what happened to the others. This brought a stop to terrorism in the Philippines for the next 50 years.

Pointing a gun into the face of Islamic terrorists won't make them flinch.

They welcome the chance to die for Allah. Like Gen. Pershing, we must show them that they won't get to Muslim heaven (which they believe has an endless supply of virgins) but instead will die with the hated pigs of the devil


Well this is a classic bit of misinformation surely Kirky?

It is well know that anybody who enrols into 'jihad' is classed as having given up their soul in the way of God - in other words their remains does not qualify whether they go to heaven or not, since when has that ever been the case in any religion?

By this logic, the Muslims who were killed by the Serbs in Bosnia using similar methods will all be denied a place in heaven, no matter how well they may have followed their religion?

Originally posted by Cyclone
they were born here. So are we to do severe background checks on newborns and determine that indeed they are British.

A sleeper means that they came here with that intention and blend in for years until necessary to be activated.
A traitor would be a closer description and is what they would have been called were this the cold war and they'd blown something up for the other superpower.

If they hadnt died, could they have been tried for treason? I dont know the official legal definition but on the surface conducting a terrrorist attack against your own citizens seems treasonous to me.

If those who carried out the attack had been alive you can bet your bottom dollar the do gooders would be rushing to defend them,you know their human rights to kill people.

Originally posted by 1Man&hisBMW
Well this is a classic bit of misinformation surely Kirky?

It is well know that anybody who enrols into 'jihad' is classed as having given up their soul in the way of God - in other words their remains does not qualify whether they go to heaven or not, since when has that ever been the case in any religion?

By this logic, the Muslims who were killed by the Serbs in Bosnia using similar methods will all be denied a place in heaven, no matter how well they may have followed their religion?

thats religion.........full of contradictions..........and holes :)

its what anybody wants it to be and when it suits them

Just reading about the bombers on the sky news site, its all appauling but what worries me the most is one of the bombers worked in a school with young asylum/immigrant children... how many of them and thier familys has he brainwashed..
I would hate to think that scum like this could be moving amongst our precious children. I hope they find the remaining members and bring back the death penalty.. publicly

Originally posted by kirky
perhaps they wernt informed it was a one way journey.....

I thought that too kirky...

Originally posted by nightrider
If they hadnt died, could they have been tried for treason? I dont know the official legal definition but on the surface conducting a terrrorist attack against your own citizens seems treasonous to me.

i don't know, probably not though.
Not that the sentence would have been any different to being tried for multiple murders.

Roy - I think you confuse defending the ways we do things from the likes of you, with defending the people.
There is no reason to change trial by jury and the penalties that are set, and if there were a reason it should be one coming from rational thought and discussion, not emotion and manipulation.

Ignoring religion and colour, I am very disappointed and saddened that it was Yorkshiremen who did this. I thought we were better than this.

Alchresearch ,

Well , before the bombers , we had the Yorkshire Ripper , The Black Panther , John Reginald Halliday Christie was born in Yorkshire [Halifax] , as was John George Haigh {nr. Wakefield }
Those are just the very notorious ones.
We seem to breed our fair share of monsters in Yorkshire and it makes you wonder what we'll come up with next.

'They'd never carry anything that could identify them or any part of their cell. ' - JoePritchard

Totally agree. It just doesn't sit right. Like Atta's unsinged, pristine condition passport found at the WTC (9/11).

Some out here are speculating that they were patsies, and that AQ misled them as to the nature of their mission. They were seen 'happy and content' on CCTV footage at the stations. One was at University (so he had a future to get to), and all appear to have been nice chaps. Not the usual profile for a would-be bomber. So there may be something in this theory.

But I still can't buy that. I think the bombs were planted by more western oriented interests, and when families rang in to say their loved ones were missing they chose 4 out of them who matched the required profile and bestowed 'terrorist' credentials on them.

The aim?
.
To kick UK up the arse. And get them to the same levels of fear as most of the Americans. As was the Madrid bombings (4/11), who were also perceived to be dragging their heels on supporting the war on terror.

To divide us all further. If all eyes are suspiciously on each other
then we won't as easily notice what our money/power driven leaders are up to.

To gain more control over western peoples. They now have an neverending reason to storm in and raid every house on every street in the UK.

Ultimately its 'we the people' who are the victims. And only our leaders (and their backers) will benefit.

It also quashes any support from the muslim community for these now UK 'insurgents'. As I think has happened in Iraq. (Doesn't a common enemy tend to join groups together?) Atacking the newly formed Iraqi/western institutions, police etc I can understand, but normal civilians? 24 children? Would they be that dumb?

Given the numbers of muslims in the UK and the support any AQ organisation could lose from such acts I don't see them doing it (7/7/7) myself.



'I would hate to think that scum like this could be moving amongst our precious children. ' - honeyplanet

That's exactly the response they're looking for. Whoever did it. Don't buy into it, honeypot.

I've been following the 'peter power incident' with some interest, and have found video footage of an ITV news interview (20.21 07/07/05) with him where he restates that the bombings occurred at precisely the locations they were given in their exercise that they were about to run.

The met had a lot of officers on leave last week, but some had been told to 'be available' on the 7th lest something went down

Bank, Kennington Oval, and, I think, one other Tube station were also closed with Police in attendance at about 7:15am

If someone knew this was going to happen, but to take premptive action would 'blow the gaff', then it might have been a 'Coventry' decision i.e. The attack was known about, and was permitted to be carried out so we would not compromise our intelligence sources.

Either way, the fact that this is just not turning up on the news is interesting in its own right.

Anyone else have BBC/ITN contacts. I have pushed this question out as far as I can to people I know, if others could do the same, then perhaps the question could be addressed.

As for Power's Exercise being a cover for government terrorists to go around planting bombs, ptui.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
I've been following the 'peter power incident' with some interest, and have found video footage of an ITV news interview (20.21 07/07/05) with him where he restates that the bombings occurred at precisely the locations they were given in their exercise that they were about to run.

The met had a lot of officers on leave last week, but some had been told to 'be available' on the 7th lest something went down

Bank, Kennington Oval, and, I think, one other Tube station were also closed with Police in attendance at about 7:15am

If someone knew this was going to happen, but to take premptive action would 'blow the gaff', then it might have been a 'Coventry' decision i.e. The attack was known about, and was permitted to be carried out so we would not compromise our intelligence sources.

Either way, the fact that this is just not turning up on the news is interesting in its own right.

Anyone else have BBC/ITN contacts. I have pushed this question out as far as I can to people I know, if others could do the same, then perhaps the question could be addressed.

As for Power's Exercise being a cover for government terrorists to go around planting bombs, ptui.

I agree. It is a nonsense to say the bombs could have been planted by Western "agents".

However, I would not dismiss the possibility that our security services knew about these people and let them "run". There are a whole host of new laws and powers around the corner if the right "atmosphere" can be created.

Fair points. :)

I remember the same arguments over 9/11: Was it LIHOP (let it happen on purpose) or MIHOP (made it happen on porpose).


Maybe you're just afraid to look at such a frightening concept. ;)

I couldn't quite believe what I was seeing on the BBC news site this morning. They actually named the explosive used in the London bombings and by the shoe bomber and said it was easily made from common chemicals.

So I Googled the name of the stuff (+ recipe) and instantly found out how to make it. Whoever released that information to the press may have a lot to answer for in the future.

I just looked again at the BBC news site and it's not there any more. There must have been complaints.

Was the name of the explosive also reported i the daily papers?

*******WHEN RESPONDING PLEASE DO NOT NAME THIS STUFF******

Alastair

And now thanks to yourself, even more people now know how to make it, including myself. I didnt until I saw this post :rolleyes:

There are hundreds of places on the web that tell you how to make bombs. Anyone with A-level chemistry could do it anyway.

We had a science teacher who showed us how A P explosives could be made. It was actually very interesting to hear how this chemical reaction occurs. Having the knowledge is one thing, using it is another.

Originally posted by nick2
Anyone with A-level chemistry could do it anyway.

Even I could, and I've only got O' Level chemistry:o;) .

Originally posted by nick2
There are hundreds of places on the web that tell you how to make bombs. Anyone with A-level chemistry could do it anyway.

true, but seriously though, PottShrigley's comment makes a lot of sense. Some people may not even think about making a bomb and the like until they see stuff like this on the news which tells you how easy it is.

Actually, if people are making this stuff (I know the chemical mentioned - been around on the Net for ages) they're lucky they've not blown themselves to bits.

The manufacturing process requires care, and more than one bomber has gone up with his product.

All I can say is that maybe the BBC Website needed a Moderator... :D

Joe

Originally posted by spyro2000
Some people may not even think about making a bomb and the like until they see stuff like this on the news which tells you how easy it is.

I was the same with choux pastry.

Originally posted by spyro2000
And now thanks to yourself, even more people now know how to make it, including myself. I didnt until I saw this post :rolleyes:

.....but i was careful not to name the stuff. The thing is any trained Islamist will know already.

I just wonder which idiot briefer from the government or security forces released this information?

Alastair

I think you need to give Joe Public some credit here.

If someone told me that mixing salt and sugar together (for example) would make gunpowder, I wouldn't be tempted to do it. I'm guessing neither would the majority of you guys.

People who want to create bombs will do so whether the information is discussed freely or not. I really don't see what the issue is here.

If you set fire to petrol it expoldes, perhaps we shouldn't mention that incase someone decides to do it ?

Years ago the source of all wicked wisdom was soemthing called 'The Anarchist Cookbook' which circulated in paper form for years before the Net came along. If taht was available in the armpit of the world I gre up in, then it was available anywhere.

The yield (chemical wise) of this stuff isn't that great - I think anyone popping in to the local Boots for the chemicals in quantities large enough to cause trouble might get a little visit quite soon afterwards. Given the stability of this stuff in the current weather I'm surprised that there wasn't an accident with it.

I don't believe that your normal person would see something in the media and then go and build a bomb - look at Oklahoma City, the good old 'farmer's friend' bomb. There were not a spate of them across the US, despite the ease of availability of the stuff involved and the numbers of certifiable lunatics running around the extremes of US society.

I think the BBC were a little remiss in publishing what the explosive was, but mainly from a point of view of evidence admissability, rather than making it easy for people to repeat the bombings.

Joe

Yeah you make some Valid points Joe. I suppose as has been said before that If someone wants to make a bomb they will, doesnt matter what they see in the news.

I remember back in the day the Anarchist handbook, I think its still being updated regularly. The one I saw regularly was the Jolly Rogers Cook Book, had al sorts of recipes in there.

Originally posted by nick2
If you set fire to petrol it expoldes, perhaps we shouldn't mention that incase someone decides to do it ?

Thanks for this warning nick2. Suspect it won't stop some folk making petrol bombs if they wanted too though.

EVERYTHINGS available on the web.

its not if you can find out how to make it...........its if your that way inclined to make it, use it, and want to blow people up with it .........i doubt theres actually many of the latter.

More speculation on 'who dunnit?':

'Then we have the ease with which the police identified them. Initially, it was assumed that they were all victims of the bombs, but then they become the culprits.

The government of course is making use of the event to get even more repressive measures passed, and was quick to blame al-Qu’eda and the ‘international terror network’ for the deadly attacks.'


http://www.williambowles.info/ini/ini-0348.html


(London bombings and 9/11)

'This echoes the situation with 9-11, where many people received early warnings, as surveyed in Article (5). But then, the whole incident echoes 9-11. I’ve been expecting 9-11 repeats throughout Europe, aimed at building support for the U.S.-Anglo program of petrodollar imperialism.

Article (4) outlines some of the reasons why this particular op was well-timed for Tony & George: both are falling in the polls, both have populations critical of the cowardly war in Iraq, and both are under political and legal attack – Bush from the Pflame affair and Blair from the Downing Street memos. But my guess is that these aren’t the primary timing considerations. “Why now?”, I believe, is best answered by the G8 summit and the Live 8 scam.'

http://www.williambowles.info/spysrus/false_flag_ops.html


(London bombings and 9/11)

'The weight of evidence that the 9/11 attack on the US was planned by the US government suggests the likelihood that this attack has a similar genesis–that is, that it originated from deep within ruling circles of “the Allies.”

The ruling elites of the US and Britain are playing for huge stakes at home and in the Middle East, which is why the actions of their chosen politicians, Bush and Blair, however deeply unpopular they may be with ordinary citizens, have overwhelming support within ruling circles.

It is only because the stakes are so huge that ruling elites would dare such desperate measures as terror attacks on their own people or illegal wars of aggression abroad.

While the main victims of the war on Iraq are the Iraqi people, the main purpose driving the war and its attendant terror is the class war by the American elite against American working people.

Whoever is responsible for these latest atrocities, we must not let them set whole peoples against each other in a “clash of civilizations.” We must challenge these terror campaigns against the Iraqi and British and American people with the solidarity of working people here and around the world.'

http://www.williambowles.info/guests/2005/london_bombs.html

It would be nice if we could dismiss these ludicrous conspiracy theories for the nonsense they are - i.e. mostly comprising speculation heaped on speculation, leavened with a few killer 'facts' and unanswered questions. Unfortunately they may in some quarters be given more credence than they deserve. For example, a guy on the Islam channel last night was arguing that both the London bombs and the Twin Towers attacks were the work of agents of the US and British governments, as a means of reinforcing their control of our societies and for justifying wars. Earlier in the week, on the same channel, a caller speculated that the London bombs could have been planted by the French in retaliation for losing the Olympics. These claims would be laughable were they not buttressing the culture of denial in certain quarters about the nature and source of the terrorist threat.

Its completely illogical to see these bombings as anything other than what it looks like. Think of the odds. Four suspect muslim lads set off from leeds to london on a thursday morning, all four spilt up and take different trains/buses and all four get killed? Anyone here do probability math? Pure paranoia. I'm surprised you havent mentioned Mossad, The new World Order, the Illuminati, the freemasons and god knows what else.

People like conspiracy theories because they like to feel they know something the rest of us don't. Stop using the internet as a source of infallible information! Its full of crackpots. I mean, william bowles, christ

And by the way, there's nothing dodgy about these guys leaving documentation behind. If they were indeed suicide bombers, they would want people to know. The Glory of Martyrdom etc.






"As I think has happened in Iraq. (Doesn't a common enemy tend to join groups together?) Atacking the newly formed Iraqi/western institutions, police etc I can understand, but normal civilians? 24 children? Would they be that dumb?"

THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN INSURGENTS AND FOREIGN JIHADISTS. Dont you understand the nature of wahhabist terorists? They despise other muslims as heretics, particularly shias. They dont give a **** about blowing up men, women, children, whoever. If the americans left in the morning the baathist/fedayeen/muhabbarat remnants and the foreign fighters under al-zarqawi would turn on each other immediately.

I see another suicide bombing today in Turkey,who as far as I know havent invaded any other muslim countries recently. You probably think the CIA did it, of course.

Echoing the musings of others before me, maybe the bombers were unaware of their fate...

Seen something on the front page of a paper today (i didn't look properly so I may have got the wrong end of the stick) that says the bombers bought return tickets from Luton and apparently there's some other stuff to suggest that they didn't know they weren't coming back.

Will search the online newspaper sites and report back if I find the article(s) I'm referring to.

EDIT: Here you go (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=15742951%26method=full%26siteid=94762% 26headline=exclusive%2d%2d58%2d%2dwas%2dit%2dsuici de%2d-name_page.html)

Maybe the returns were on special offer...Or maybe they were just insurance in case they had to abort their mission. Seems quite logical, doesnt seem iffy to me at all.

Maybe...

The problem in this kind of situation is that any theory can be made plausable as so little is known and so much is based on speculation. I don't know what to believe...

'a guy on the Islam channel last night was arguing that both the London bombs and the Twin Towers attacks were the work of agents of the US and British governments, as a means of reinforcing their control of our societies and for justifying wars. - LordChaverly'

Hm ... sounds about right.


'Earlier in the week, on the same channel, a caller speculated that the London bombs could have been planted by the French in retaliation for losing the Olympics. ' - LordChaverly

Hm ... nah!



'These claims would be laughable were they not buttressing the culture of denial in certain quarters about the nature and source of the terrorist threat.' - LordChaverly

You just haven't had your eyes opened yet. LC. But you will. When you see us all trussed up in barbed wire laws so we can't even sh*t without some authorisation.



'People like conspiracy theories because they like to feel they know something the rest of us don't'

No skny. People like conspiracy theories because they fill in far more gaps than 'official' reports do.

And maybe they DO know more than the rest of us.

Are you afraid to check it all out?

Or are you just gonna walk away from it because you think YOU know more than the rest?



'And by the way, there's nothing dodgy about these guys leaving documentation behind. If they were indeed suicide bombers, they would want people to know. The Glory of Martyrdom etc.' - skny

It is dodgy if they were actually bombers. They're never gonna be painted in the colours of martyrdom in western eyes. And I presume the people who are allegedly paying them already know who they are, and will know which families to leave the cheque with. No point in carrying any documentation really.

Unless they were just innocent travellers ...


'THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN INSURGENTS AND FOREIGN JIHADISTS. ' - skny

Give it time. They'll be referring to them in those terms soon enough. The country will be at War, and the enemy is within - and allthat stuff.

'Maybe the returns were on special offer' - skny

Or maybe they really were just going for a day out with their mates, like they told their families.

Forums all over the place are accepting the probability of them being patsies. The next question is: who set them up?

It can't be AQ, as apparently they are adept at brainwashing youths into committing acts like these for them. Who, we are lead to believe, are stepping up to the call in great numbers. No need to set anybody up.

So now, who does that leave ...


Yes, sheff_minx, I heard of the return tickets and the 'pay as you go' car parking tickets on Radio 4 "Today' programme.

And yes it is difficult to know who to trust. You just have to trust your own intuition on it. And past actions are always a good indication of current and future actions.

"Or maybe they really were just going for a day out with their mates, like they told their families." Really. And like I said,what do you think the odds are that all of them would split up and all be killed in four separate bomb blasts almost simultaneously? They are some pretty stiff odds I would imagine.

"They're never gonna be painted in the colours of martyrdom in western eyes" I doubt western acceptance was their motives, as if they were islamic fundamentalists, which seems likely, they probably regarded the west as a godless hive of infidels and pseudo-muslims.

"No skny. People like conspiracy theories because they fill in far more gaps than 'official' reports do." No. it only takes one person to formulate a conspiracy. It would take tens of thousands of people to engineer the kind of international evil corporate agenda you are suggesting. I think thats unlkely in the extreme. Western countires have done extremely well out of freedom and capitalism. The kind of sinister nazi police states you fear would not be as economically viable. So cop yourself on and start thinking logically.

"Forums all over the place are accepting the probability of them being patsies" I'll bet they are. Internet forums....the source of real facts and hard-hitting reportage.

Your paranoia is commendable in its consistency.

Originally posted by CaroleK

Yes, sheff_minx, I heard of the return tickets and the 'pay as you go' car parking tickets on Radio 4 "Today' programme.

And yes it is difficult to know who to trust. You just have to trust your own intuition on it. And past actions are always a good indication of current and future actions.

Maybe they bought return tickets and paid for car parking so as to make things look normal. If someone saw them buying a one way ticket, they may think that was odd.

Still no 'traditional' news sources have commented about the Visor Security exercise that was being conducted the same morning simulating bombs in the same locations at the same time.

That 5 Live recording is genuine, and so is the footage of him on ITV1 at 20:21 07/07/05.

I'm no conspiracy theorist, and I'm certainly not going to postulate a scenario about which I have no knowledge.

But I do have the growing sensation that the media bubble is obviously ignoring some things in favour of others.

After watching Gavin Esler shout down George Galloway on newsnight, it seems that the only effective British Opposition, the BBC, has now rolled over and played dead.

Despite the fact that the BBC was right, Andrew Gilligan was right and the Iraq war was cooked up on a pack of lies....

So , quis custodiet custodiens?

"Still no 'traditional' news sources have commented about the Visor Security exercise that was being conducted the same morning simulating bombs in the same locations at the same time."

Er, why would they? Visor do those exercises every other day, and so do scores of other "security" companies in london and most other big cities. They probably did one today. Sorry, not relevant.

Galloway is a sensationalist muppet with a very calculated agenda and sociodemographic target.

There's no need to apologise for thinking it's not relevant. Visor do not run exercises like this very often, because the exercise was commissioned by a private company and involved a thousand people in an exercise that simulated three terrorist explosions on the underground network at "precisely" the same time and location as the actual blasts. This has all been stated on the record by Peter Power.

I'm not even proposing that the unbelievable coincidence that left Peter Power (CEO Visor Security) with "the hairs on [his] neck still standing up" over 12 hours later, is anything but that - a coincidence.

But such a staggering coincidence, concerning such an extreme and important incident is not to be ignored either - if only to eliminate a line of enquiry completely.

But like no-one is parliament is saying what they think, at the moment, the same self censorship seems to have gripped the media over the bombings.

My concern is not that Govt 'agents' somehow planted the bombs in order to usher in a new wave of repressive legislation before we are all subjugated by the global government planning to stage a planetary coup d'etat. (although I will not deny that that is a remote possibility.)

My concern is about the supine attitude of the media, who are uncritically accepting all that is spoon fed to them, and seem - superficially at least - to be official mouthpieces, rather than independent news organisation. Especially television news.

"There's no need to apologise for thinking it's not relevant. Visor do not run exercises like this very often, because the exercise was commissioned by a private company and involved a thousand people in an exercise that simulated three terrorist explosions on the underground network at "precisely" the same time and location as the actual blasts. This has all been stated on the record by Peter Power."

There was probably quite a few other exercises going on at the same time that may have involved other private companies and hundreds of people that DIDNT reasonably mimic the incidents involved. I just don't see how its in any way releated, except to divert attention from the real issues. Think about it...Logically..why would some strangely-connected "security company" with sinister motives do this and not just have a plain old fashioned fire drill? Irrational. It's obviously in Peter power's interest to generate the concept that his company is ahead of the competition in predicting catastrophic incidents.

I think if some rag smelt a genuine coup they would report it in a nanosecond.

Originally posted by skny
I think if some rag smelt a genuine coup they would report it in a nanosecond. [/B]

True.

Although the Express and other quality papers won't shy away from dropping another 16 pages of Dodi/Di conspiracy into the main section - I could see why an editor might nix an article this close to the event, that even sniffed of 'conspiracy'.

I just get the feeling that the media is 'behaving' at the moment, as there is a need for unity and solidarity - and it's very important to have no doubt that there is a single, coherent picture of what happened.

Re: the media "behaving" - I've got very much the same impression with the coverage of the relevance of Islam to the attacks. I am amazed that almost without exception everyone I have heard or read says "there is nothing in Islam to condone these attacks", despite the fact that I've been devouring a diversity of media day-in day-out since the bombings.

I admit to not having read all of the Koran (although it is now high on my list of things to do), but the short sections I have read offer more than sufficient justification for this attack. What really amazes me is not that there are suicide bombers that claim the support of Islam, but that most Moslems have happily integrated so well into our society, despite holy strictures telling them to do otherwise.

I can understand the need to promote unity and protect vulnerable minorities in the aftermath of such an event, and this is a very sensitive issue which really needs handling with kid gloves: I specifically don't blame Moslems for these events (like I said, most are happily integrated), I blame the book which they hold in such high esteem. But what really worries me is that the only people I've heard mentioning this so far are the BNP and Melanie Phillips. I am very unhappy to be in the same camp as such right-wing nuts, and wish that all parts of the political spectrum could give more serious attention to this matter, rather than uttering platitudes such as "Islam means peace so these people cannot be true Moslems".

Good article in the guardian on the "denial" culture

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/comment/story/0,16141,1530283,00.htm

"But Muslims need to recognise this as well. It needs to be said, loud and clear, that it was not the CIA or Mossad who brought down the Twin Towers and bombed the tube but Muslims. We need to be clear that, like any faith, Islam is a religion of peace - and sometimes of violence." l

You go ahead and believe all that then skny. Rush on to WWIII and WWIV, because thats where this path, and thoughts you're now having, will lead.

As long as you believe that muslims are committing these attacks they'll make sure they keep coming. Till we have out and out civil war in every street and town in the country.

Which just happens to be EXACTLY where our beloved ******* leaders want us. A toalitarian state where forums like this will be banned and we'll be left totally in the dark ages again.

But if you pull out from it all and look at it all from above you'll see some very interesting landmarks. Look at how our history has been 'created', the direction we're being taken, and the ultimat destination. Current events slot in so ... neatly.

The muslim communities are just slaves. Like the rest of us. And those who govern us don't give a f**k what colour/religion their slaves come in. Most have usually come from ****holes and want a better future for their kids - and who can blame them? They may not understand western ways but its a price they'll pay for a future. And they won't be making any waves.

Until some misguided groups start attacking them for incidents like the London bombings. And who could blame them for fighting back and defending their families?

Enter WWIII.

(Or have we already had that? I can't keep up with it.)

They've been encouraged into this country for market/political/world ordering reasons. To drive our wages down, create political and social division, and to ensure those who are at the top STAY at the top.

They're as much pawns in all this as we are.

The only ones who win are the ******** who control our societies. ALL our societies. And its in THEIR interests that the London bombings have worked.

If anything we should be teaming up with them,educating each other on the REAL **** that is going down. If we can't be riled up into warring with each other then our rulers , and their ambitions, die instead.

Much better option, don't ya think, skny?

No. That post is actually unintentionally hilarious.

"Which just happens to be EXACTLY where our beloved ******* leaders want us" How do you know what they want? What information are you privy to that the rest of us are denied? A totalitaian police state would not be any more beneficial to "them" (ominous catchall term to suggest a sinister cabal of shadowy government and business interests ruling the world) than free enterprise and the massive have and have not wealth of capitalism. You dont have any idea what you are on about. Start smelling what you are shovelling.

Theres no answer to your wacko convictions though. Its always the same. Not enough evidence? "Ohh....something dodgy's going on!!!!" Too much evidence? "Ohh....how CONVEEEEEENIENT! Mossad, corporations, nazi police state, blah blah gibber gibber"

Having heard on the news about some of these men, and their otherwise normal civilised succesful lives and even their friends and families saying how nice they were and this kind of thing was totally out of character.
Is it beyond the possible that they were tricked into carrying these bombs? Not knowing that they were bombs, maybe they thought they were taking books or religious material to different locations. Maybe they were just couriers.

In the past it seems that suicide bombers have left evidence of preperations for their own suicide. Maybe these men were not intending to die like this, leaving their families and community with such shame.

Originally posted by muddycoffee
Is it beyond the possible that they were tricked into carrying these bombs? Not knowing that they were bombs, maybe they thought they were taking books or religious material to different locations. Maybe they were just couriers.
I had wondered about that, but it does seem a little odd that they would have split up the way they did (although like you say, they could be carrying things to different places) and not checked inside the bags they'd been asked to carry.

Slightly suspicious though that three of the bombs went off almost simultaneously - this does suggest some sort of timer device, or a very close eye on their watches (which I guess isn't unusual if they had indeed planned this). But then, the fact that the fourth bomb went off so much later suggests that they probably were manually detonated.

It would be handy if they had left a video like the two british suicide bombers in Israel did, but that would undoubtedly be dismissed by some as a fabrication anyway. It would be nice if all potential suicide bombers were twitching glassy-eyed nutters feared by all their acquaintances but that's just not the case.

I've wondered about them splitting up, as well, DanSumption. If they were on a friends day out then that would seem odd.

But DID they split up? It could just be a tagged on 'fact' to locate them at the same positions as the bombs. Wonder if there's any CCTV footage showing them in these diffrent places, and the times they were there?

Just speculating, skny. ;)

One of the things that puzzles me is from looking at the pictures it appears as if the bus bomber was sat on the top deck, but surely sitting on the ground floor would have created a more devastating blast.

Originally posted by Disco_Cat
surely sitting on the ground floor would have created a more devastating blast.
What an excellent point DiscoCat. Although it could be argued that he was on plan B after failing to access the Tube Network, possibly not planned as well.

I saw a picture of one of them with a huge rucksack on his way on a newspaper. Said to be carrying 5kg of high explosive, I would have thought that would have fitted much better in a small rucksack. And not that heavy, same as just 4 Bottles of wine. [ I just weighed 2 ]

Still leads me to suspect that he was not intending to die that day. Although I'm sure that more details will come out in the investigations.

Originally posted by muddycoffee
[B]I saw a picture of one of them with a huge rucksack on his way on a newspaper. Said to be carrying 5kg of high explosive, I would have thought that would have fitted much better in a small rucksack. And not that heavy, same as just 4 Bottles of wine. [ I just weighed 2 ]

B]

The newspapers yesterday reported that their were abnormalities with the suicide bomber theory, ie no tape which is a major abnormality, but also things like the fact they bought return tickets and car park tickets. Not to mention the fact some of them had pregnant wives.

Would be interesting to know what if anything was in the rucksack with the explosives.

Originally posted by kirky
it worked once in History... (apprently,sounds good though)

Once in U.S. history an episode of Islamic terrorism was very quickly stopped. It happened in the Philippines about 1911, when Gen. John J. Pershing was in command of the garrison. There had been numerous Islamic terrorist attacks, so "Black Jack" told his boys to catch the perps and teach them a lesson.

Forced to dig their own graves, the terrorists were all tied to posts, execution style. The U.S. soldiers then brought in pigs and slaughtered them, rubbing their bullets in the blood and fat. Thus, the terrorists were terrorized; they saw that they would be contaminated with hogs' blood. This would mean that they could not enter Heaven, even if they died as terrorist martyrs.

All but one was shot, their bodies dumped into the grave, and the hog guts dumped atop the bodies. The lone survivor was allowed to escape back to the terrorist camp and tell his brethren what happened to the others. This brought a stop to terrorism in the Philippines for the next 50 years.

Pointing a gun into the face of Islamic terrorists won't make them flinch.

They welcome the chance to die for Allah. Like Gen. Pershing, we must show them that they won't get to Muslim heaven (which they believe has an endless supply of virgins) but instead will die with the hated pigs of the devil

Spot on : I am with you one hundred percent, we have to fight these murdering B******S in whichever way we can, and if what you suggest will stop them, so be it.

They have no concience, character or principal and deserve any dirty trick in the book, there must be thousands of them plotting to murder us, whilst we speak, after this country has given them a luxury haven, where everything is provided.

We have given shelter to the scum of the Earth and the sooner they are kicked out, decent people in the U. K. can sleep easy in their beds and feel safe going about their daily lives, sad to say that all Muslims are sympathetic to the suicide bombers, as one could see on T. V. when they were shouting ( we will kill ten of you to one of us )and also, Muslims were cheering in yorkshire the day the news reported the 7/7 killings in London.

There are 1.6 million Muslims in this country and they are laughing at us, because they know that they can get away with these vile atrocities and we can't do a damn thing about it, the immigration should be reversed immediately, until every last one has gone home and good shut.

Originally posted by halevan
immigration should be reversed immediately, until every last one has gone home and good shut.

What about the Muslims that didn't immigrate here but were born.

Originally posted by halevan
sad to say that all Muslims are sympathetic to the suicide bombers, as one could see on T. V. when they were shouting ( we will kill ten of you to one of us )and also, Muslims were cheering in yorkshire the day the news reported the 7/7 killings in London.



That's strange. I've met plenty of Muslims who are as unsympathetic to suicide bombers as yourself and certainly would never clap and cheer terrorists attacks. Indeed other then the ranting of the BNP I've not seen any evidence to support this claim.

I would say most are unsympathetic to suicide bombers. Its no different to somebody hijacking your identity and using it fraudulently. Who in their right minds wants to be associated with suicide bombers, its not glamorous and there is no glory in it when you are killing vast numbers of innocents.

Interestingly, I understand these guys met in a Kashimiri Community Centre - does their link with Kashmir have more to do with their actions perhaps?

Originally posted by halevan

sad to say that all Muslims are sympathetic to the suicide bombers, as one could see on T. V. when they were shouting ( we will kill ten of you to one of us )and also, Muslims were cheering in yorkshire the day the news reported the 7/7 killings in London.

There are 1.6 million Muslims in this country and they are laughing at us, because they know that they can get away with these vile atrocities and we can't do a damn thing about it, the immigration should be reversed immediately, until every last one has gone home and good shut.

"all Muslims are sympathetic"? You clearly know something halevan that comes as a surprise to me.

I stood in the Peace Gardens during the 2 minute silence. I stood amongst muslims, a few of whom I knew. But no one was shouting, no one was clapping, no one was cheering, and no one was laughing.

I don't know how I missed what you see and hear from 1.6 million muslims. But then maybe it's me who needs to gets my hearing and eyesight tested?

Originally posted by halevan
I don't know how I missed what you see and hear from 1.6 million muslims. But then maybe it's me who needs to gets my hearing and eyesight tested? [

Then maybe you should read the newspapers and watch the T.V.

halevan - just checked your last post. Do you realise that you are now talking to yourself? Have you stopped taking your tablets? :hihi:

Originally posted by 1Man&hisBMW

Interestingly, I understand these guys met in a Kashimiri Community Centre - does their link with Kashmir have more to do with their actions perhaps?

Personally I would say so.

Long before the Iraq war I had the displeasure of interviewing a representative from what is now a proscribed organisation and the conflict in Kashmir was a major topic which they kept coming back to. For this person and his organisation the prospect of a conflict in Afghanistan or Iraq was irrelevant as actions in Chechnya Palestine and as mentioned Kashmir had in effect sealed their hatred of our country and ‘The West’

I’ve looked at some recent material published by front organisations since then and again the situation in Kashmir (which in this is country is deemed to not even warrant minimal news coverage), was a far far greater point of contention then the Iraq war as it received much greater coverage by these groups.

Dad, these are all the points I made to you the other day when you first kicked off! Joe public wants to build a bomb... the information isn't hard to find on the 'net, you don't need any kind of advanced chemical knowledge, let alone a tip off from some dosy BBC sub...

Leah xx

P.S. When did you start worring about the world anyway?

Originally posted by Disco_Cat
Personally I would say so.

Long before the Iraq war I had the displeasure of interviewing a representative from what is now a proscribed organisation and the conflict in Kashmir was a major topic which they kept coming back to. For this person and his organisation the prospect of a conflict in Afghanistan or Iraq was irrelevant as actions in Chechnya Palestine and as mentioned Kashmir had in effect sealed their hatred of our country and ‘The West’

I’ve looked at some recent material published by front organisations since then and again the situation in Kashmir (which in this is country is deemed to not even warrant minimal news coverage), was a far far greater point of contention then the Iraq war as it received much greater coverage by these groups.

Its what I thought aswell. Its well known the Kashmiris are not particularly friendly towards Pakistanis, and indeed even have their own flag and own identity. Their location on the front line has lead to firebrand clerics in their region becoming more commonplace.

Once we start referring to a massive group if individuals as one, ie. 'them', 'immigrants', 'lefties', 'righties', 'Irish', 'Polish' etc....
then we are narrowing the scope of the debate to an un-workable level. I understand that the root of such stereotyping is probably a throw back to ancient instincts. Like the way a cat will not like a dog because it may have been chased by one as a kitten. For animals, stereotyping is a basic defence. As it is, humans have developed much more complex societies than the animal kingdom, where every individual interacts with his/her environment and peers differently. Unfortunately, not all of our human counterparts have developed as quickly as others. They still stereotype the unfamiliars into one big group and treat them all the same. This is based on fear of the Unknown. In the same way as the cat's reaction to the dog is based on fear!

'They still stereotype the unfamiliars into one big group and treat them all the same. This is based on fear of the Unknown. ' = Andy78

You're right. And its this very failing that allows people to be manipulated into wars.


'halevan - just checked your last post. Do you realise that you are now talking to yourself? ' - redrobbo

Hehehe!



' 'Pointing a gun into the face of Islamic terrorists won't make them flinch.

They welcome the chance to die for Allah. Like Gen. Pershing, we must show them that they won't get to Muslim heaven (which they believe has an endless supply of virgins) but instead will die with the hated pigs of the devil ' ' - kirky

... Yeah! Why don't we all just devolve down into something we no longer recognise as human again! (... looks up)

Can't we all sit down and have a pint and a joint instead???


Below is an interesting post from another forum:


Wow, these are some stupid terrorists
Posted by 8-DJ on 7/18/2005, 2:01 pm

The morale in the al Qa'ida camp must have been at an all time high.
Their efforts in the war were finally paying off:
- Bush was losing his public support and his own country was beginning to speak about removing him from office.

- His top aide was under investigation for possible treason.

- England had started to make plans to pull out their troops.

So, it is at this time, we are to believe that an organization smart enough to pull off 911, decided to throw away all the progress mentioned above, to frighten a people whose government only has 5% of the current troops "in the war on terror", and had just decided to pull those troops out?

The word stupidity would not cover this decision.
It is unfathomable.

It has been reported that:

"BBC security correspondent Frank Gardner said a previously unknown group calling itself the Secret Organisation Group of al-Qa'ida of Jihad Organisation in Europe had claimed to be behind the attacks in a statement posted on an Islamist website.
The group’s statement said the attacks were revenge for the "massacres" Britain was committing in Iraq and Afghanistan and that the country was now "burning with fear and panic".

Thus: al Qa'ida carried out the attacks for the massacres committed by the British troops, which are miniscule in comparison to the US.

They further: carried out the attacks in complete obliviousness to the news of the imminent British troop pullout.

They further: carried out these attacks despite the fact that Bush’s poll numbers were in the toilet and heading lower, leading to a possibility of impeachment.

They further: carried out these attacks even though the media had finally begun to cover the stories that could be potentially damaging to the entire war machine that they are fighting against.

Wow, these are some stupid terrorists.


"Cui bono" is a Latin phrase which simply means, "Who benefits" and it is the question we need to be asking ourselves.
What does al Qa'ida gain from this attack?
The only logical answer can be, NOTHING.

It will instill fear in the populace which could lead to a galvanizing of public support for 'the war they are fighting' though.

It may lead to England changing their plans about pulling out their troops though.

It will give the US corporate media an excuse to not cover the stories that had been corroding the support for Bush though.
(Haven't we figured out the real reasons for the overblown presscoverage of the Terry Schiavo, Michael Jackson and Natalee Holloway cases yet?)


Psssst, heard the latest rumor yet?

Come closer .......


It is whispered there still exist people who cannot see through this.

Can you imagine?

' there must be thousands of them plotting to murder us, '
'we have to fight these murdering B******S '
'all Muslims are sympathetic to the suicide bombers' - halevan


Now steady on t'owld lad! What you're regurgitating right now is known as 'brainwashing'. But that's OK, we've all been subjected to it at sometime or other.

They're not laughing at us, they're probably sat at home right now sh*tting themselves that some equally brainwashed bunch of youths is gonna attack them because of the bombings.

I'm sure there ARE some muslims out here who have been whipped up into a mad frenzy - by equally power-hungry leaders - but I expect that most just want what we all want: a living, prospects, family safe and a few illusions they want to experience.

You do have a point on the numbers tho. With immigrants in general as well. There have been far too many sardines shoved into this UK tin. When numbers exceed a certain amount the indigenous populations begin to feel hemmed in, pushed out - and vulnerable. They had to KNOW that! Yet still they looked the other way ...

Oh well, the market rules.



(Psst, watch out for the nutters in the crowd who shout 'kill'!.)

Originally posted by redrobbo
halevan - just checked your last post. Do you realise that you are now talking to yourself? Have you stopped taking your tablets? :hihi:

My goodness, that is absolute class. He actually had a go at himself for not reading properly.....the i r o n y!

"What does al Qa'ida gain from this attack?
The only logical answer can be, NOTHING. "

The mistake YOU are making is seeing al-qaeda as a single, unified organism with a single goal. Its not, its merely a "brand" that every sociopathic extremist islamist is hitching his wagon to. Any way to get a mural on a ghetto wall and 72 virgins....

That argument about "stupid terrorists" is tosh. Totally dumb, as it ascribes some kind of clear goal and definite moral compass to people who dont really tend to be on the same page as the rest of us about, well, anything really. Since when have extremist terrorists acted according to pure logic? The spanish government was already planning troop withdrawal before the madrid bombs.

"So, it is at this time, we are to believe that an organization smart enough to pull off 911, decided to throw away all the progress mentioned above, to frighten a people whose government only has 5% of the current troops "in the war on terror", and had just decided to pull those troops out?" YOU can't make this argument, you cant have it both ways. So did al-qaeda carry out 9/11 or not? You think not, right? If so, that argument is irelevant.


"Haven't we figured out the real reasons for the overblown presscoverage of the Terry Schiavo, Michael Jackson and Natalee Holloway cases yet?" You are nuts. Thats so painfully flimsy as an argument. Americans love celebrity scandal more than politics, and so do most people, yes, even when there are major incidents in the news.

None of those cases even came close to OJ anyway.

The majority of terrorists are, I imagine, stupid people. Particularly the footsoldiers and splinter groups whose sole motivation would be revenge for real and imagined insults to Islam. "Hey guys, lets cut that dutch filmmakers throat, he slagged off allah!!"

They are incapable achieve their goals intellectually or politically, so much less straining to just set off a bomb in a public place.

Originally posted by 1Man&hisBMW
Its well known the Kashmiris are not particularly friendly towards Pakistanis,

This is a verse from an 'Islamic rap' (I've always found hypocritical these sods have no problem using 'western' inventions like Centex and AK47's but I think it is showing increased signs of either utter hypocrisy or perhaps that even these people would like to integrate when they start expressing themselves through hip hop) Anyway I think it's interesting because it shows just how much anger some people are expressing towards Pakistan and Musharraf in particular. An anger that is pretty much totally ignored in this country and America, after all Bush didn't even know who Musharraf was let lone why so many people hate him.




"You’re just some wanabe bollywood star playing a Czar ,tipsy on whisky at the bar that’s you repertoire.

I heard your seminar running your mouth talking about running us out whilst you’re dressed in Laura Bush’s blouse. You’re just a coward a mouse who sold-out. Turned Pak to America’s spouse lets check your vows out: “Do you Pervaz Musharraf solemnly swear to fight Islam to sell-out Kashmir and fighting ban? Do you promise to give your people a decking from us? To gas’em and mash’em and bomb them for us to screw the poorest? Do you promise to hassle and bang-up those who abhor us who dare to challenge the star spangled banner like in Wana? Promise to adore us and follow orders Afghanistan abandon and weaken your borders and make them porous for western standards, values secular branded, that ensure us a nation of enslaved Asians that support us? Do you promise to keep your country in shambles plus dismantle your nuclear powers and chuck in Dr AQ Khan as a bonus for us do you promise huh do you promise? “We wish to assure President Bush of our unstinted co-operation.”(President Pervez Musharraf) Last but not least is America’s sprog full of the faeces more than a bog, President Karimov. Read your speeches playing it tough all in a huff talking bout heads and ripping them off all in puff. Reckon your hard playing the beast we reckon your dog, the female species howling and growling with muzzle off. (Whistle sound X 2) Here doggy doggy what’s the matter puppy? Want some more money to murder Muslims and torture families? Funny how a tyrant like you can suddenly become hot property when you’re probably the most cowardly. And sickest of all the rulers that inflict us with poverty, you stick with HIV infected needles spread sickness and kick us. Boil us and slice us open then stitch us and take some pictures. Muslims bruised and broken a token to prove to Bush that your hard at work and worthy of that 160 million in US aid brokered when you monkeys & mongrels last spoken. I guess he got you open you pedigree chump on a leash Karimov you claim to believe but in a mosque you Mazeltov. (Bad dog)"

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
There's no need to apologise for thinking it's not relevant. Visor do not run exercises like this very often, because the exercise was commissioned by a private company and involved a thousand people in an exercise that simulated three terrorist explosions on the underground network at "precisely" the same time and location as the actual blasts. This has all been stated on the record by Peter Power.

I'm not even proposing that the unbelievable coincidence that left Peter Power (CEO Visor Security) with "the hairs on [his] neck still standing up" over 12 hours later, is anything but that - a coincidence.

But such a staggering coincidence, concerning such an extreme and important incident is not to be ignored either - if only to eliminate a line of enquiry completely.

But like no-one is parliament is saying what they think, at the moment, the same self censorship seems to have gripped the media over the bombings.

My concern is about the supine attitude of the media, who are uncritically accepting all that is spoon fed to them, and seem - superficially at least - to be official mouthpieces, rather than independent news organisation. Especially television news.

What a load of coblers.

I hardly feel qualified to respond to such an eloquent refutation, lacking as I do, the necessary vocabulary of grunts and wheezes I would need to make myself understood to you.

In future you might like to just ignore my posts, and save yourself the trouble of tapping out replies on a keyboard with a dodgy B key. Unless you really meant coblers, whatever they are.

I can't find this story on the BBC website so do not know which substance we are talking about, but I thought it had been said that the explosives used in the actual attacks were not home-made, although the ones found in the properties in Leeds were?

And in terms of finding this information on the net, people knowing how to make explosives are the least of our worries tbh.

Originally posted by nick2
I was the same with choux pastry.

You ever tried making choux pastry Nick? People always say it's really difficult but I find it quite easy (if not a little fiddly).

Originally posted by JoeP
Years ago the source of all wicked wisdom was soemthing called 'The Anarchist Cookbook' which circulated in paper form for years before the Net came along. If that was available in the armpit of the world I grew up in, then it was available anywhere.

The yield (chemical wise) of this stuff isn't that great - I think anyone popping in to the local Boots for the chemicals in quantities large enough to cause trouble might get a little visit quite soon afterwards. Given the stability of this stuff in the current weather I'm surprised that there wasn't an accident with it.

I don't believe that your normal person would see something in the media and then go and build a bomb - look at Oklahoma City, the good old 'farmer's friend' bomb. There were not a spate of them across the US, despite the ease of availability of the stuff involved and the numbers of certifiable lunatics running around the extremes of US society.

I think the BBC were a little remiss in publishing what the explosive was, but mainly from a point of view of evidence admissability, rather than making it easy for people to repeat the bombings.

Joe

when I was a lad I used to have a copy of the anarchist cookbook on disk. Interesting LSD recipe :o

Originally posted by JonJParr
You ever tried making choux pastry Nick? People always say it's really difficult but I find it quite easy (if not a little fiddly).

It's not that difficult, it's just hard work, mixing the flour in knackers your arms.

Originally posted by nick2
It's not that difficult, it's just hard work, mixing the flour in knackers your arms.

You can use your Kitchenaid!

Originally posted by JonJParr
You can use your Kitchenaid!

I've not made it since I bought the new mixer, I might have a go this weekend. A giant pile of banana and chocolate profiteroles would be nice.

Don't worry Panerothyme, halevan's just talking to himself again.

related to the bombings - just got back from Spain and at work today they were all talking about the muslims out celebrating in darnall during the 2 minutes silence - now this can't be true, right or proper?

also watched some islamic scholar on the news last night suggesting it was all a zionist conspiracy and that Israel were responsible for the events of the 7th.

Some days ago, I proposed in a post on this thread, that the "Fanatical Muslim Clerics" be deported. That the muslim leaders should be told to clean out their own communities, and the teachers in the mosques should be controlled in some way.
Red Robbo called it ridiculous. Well, Tony Blair must have been reading the forum.
It Came To Pass!
Now let's hope that the League of Friends? Don't manage to snarl it all up in yet more lenghthy and costly shinanigans.
Just quietly pick them up - hold them incommunicado - and ship them out. I don't care whereto, and I don't care what happens to them when they get there. They have admitted their guilt, by their very public posturing and outpourings of hatred, and exorting their flock to violence. In fact drop them out of the plane over the sea. It solves everyones problems.
Blair is now seeking more powers, to use intercepts and phone records etc. Don't ask Tony - - Just do it. Then quietly pick them up - - hold them until their guilt is established - - then do whatever necessary to remove them from the loop.
Even while the talks with the muslim leaders were going on, there were clerics declaring that they did not listen to these leaders.
There were islamic youths seen protesting on TV that Blair and Bush were killing their "Brothers and Sisters" in Iraq. These youths didn't look very religious to me, more like looking for their five minutes of fame. They didn't seem too concerned about the victims of the bombing.
There was recently the case of an Afghani War Lord, who was found guilty of multiple executions and torture of victims. His second in command had been captured in his own country, and executed, but he had fled to Britain. No doubt allowed in because of the threat to his life in Afgahanistan. The trial took a long time, and cost over £3,000,000. He was sentenced to twenty years, and will undoubtably cost hundreds of thousands more. Whats more, he will certainly be far more comfortable in his little cell, with a bed and colour TV, than islama bin liner in his cave.
Our great and just legal system is regarded as a saviour to these people. In the case of terrorism - - Suspend it! This is a war after all. Let them be tried by a Military court. The prosecution led by the top military barristers, and their defence being a sharia law representative from their own country.
Show them the same consideration that they publicly show their hostages. A series of humiliating video's - - no trial - - and only one verdict.
As for the bombers? Do their victims get any chance of a trial?

Originally posted by sheffco
As for the bombers? Do their victims get any chance of a trial?

You miss the point.

The purpose of a trail is to establish guilt.

We have a legal system where we punish the guilty, not the innocent whilst allowing the guilty go free. That seems like a pretty good system to me.

With regard to the deportation of the 'fanatical muslim clerics', this is an excellent idea. There could not be a better example of how our asylum policies and hospitality have been so flagrantly abused than the behaviour of these repulsive and grotesque peddlars of hate and intolerance. However, I remain sceptical about them being given a one way ticket, or being bungled onto a plane, any time soon. As has been shown time and time again, they are likely to explore every possible legal avenue in order to avoid incarceration, extradition or deportation. There are also enough shyster lawyers and misguided fools in this country to defend them in the name of human rights (a concept which is totally alien to these fanatics, as are those of justice, tolerance and freedom).

Originally posted by sheffco
A series of humiliating video's - - no trial - - and only one verdict.


Would you have done the same with these?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4249943.stm

What I'd like to know is what hard evidence to the police / security services have that these 4 muslim guys actually did the bombings?

Anyone?

Well finding the remains of 4 identifiable bodies with the remnants of rucksacks that contained bombs probably gave it away Jamie ;)

Plus, they were seen on camera at the station, and reported missing after the blasts... maybe I can see where you are coming from, maybe there is somebody higher up in a chain somewhere pulling the strings...?

Originally posted by 1Man&hisBMW
maybe there is somebody higher up in a chain somewhere pulling the strings...?

Who knows?

I wouldn't put it past any government to obscure the truth in order to further their own agenda.

Someone told me they (the bombers) had personal identity documents on them, isn't that a bit careless for trained terrorists?

Originally posted by Jamie
Who knows?

I wouldn't put it past any government to obscure the truth in order to further their own agenda.

Someone told me they (the bombers) had personal identity documents on them, isn't that a bit careless for trained terrorists?

Dumb, but two possibilities :

First is that they didn't realise it was a suicide operation and kind of treated teh whole thing as a 'day at the office' so to say, with the job being planting bombs, switching the timer and then running off.

Second is that they were on a suicide job and wanted people to know who did it. There doesn't appear to have been the videos made that are usually associated with suicide bombers in the Middle East, so perhaps this was their equivalent.

Given the forensic evidence in London and Leeds, CCTV evidence, phone records from this morning, it does look rather like these named fellows did the deed. And even if there was someone further up the chain these guys are still murderers.

Joe

Do people think in the last few years we have always had as many "security" scares/alerts, but they seem more prevelant now because of London 7/7,

And also are we in danger of, instead of staying alert, becoming so used to these scares that we get complacent again.

I don't want to start a huge debate about terrorists I just wondered what other people thought.

Originally posted by Tony
You miss the point.

The purpose of a trail is to establish guilt.

We have a legal system where we punish the guilty, not the innocent whilst allowing the guilty go free. That seems like a pretty good system to me.

There was no point, it was a question.
Do any of the victims of these fanatics get any chance at all?
NO
Indiscriminately chosen, regardless of sex, age, or creed, they have no chance to defend themselves.
Anyone who engages in terrorism against the laws and system of a country is definitely showing his contempt for that country, and should forfeit any rights.
That was my point, if I had been making one.
But as the good Lord Chav say's, that's a bit too strong for the brigade of legal swingers who are the only ones to profit from the endless legal aid cases.

I posted this before I heard about the evacuations in London, and I wasn't trying to say that the scares aren't real.


(just in case anyone thought I was being flipant)

It's a very interesting point.

The thing is that we always should be careful anyway - I've been a lot warier in the last 4 years than I ever was in the 'IRA Years' when I visited London.

We do need to collectively watch our backs, don't panic and don't get railroaded in to over-reacting, which is exactly what the nutters out there want us to do.

Joe

Breaking news
Incidents in London - - 3 stations closed so far

I don't live my life any differently. I have more chance of being killed every time I get into a car, or even everytime I plug something into a socket, then I have of ever dying from a terroist attack. I suppose for smokers to worry about it is even more stupid.

If we all start looking over our shoulders, and getting scared at every shopping bag we see left about, then the terroists have won and got what they wanted.

Originally posted by Snook
I don't live my life any differently. I have more chance of being killed every time I get into a car, or even everytime I plug something into a socket, then I have of ever dying from a terroist attack. I suppose for smokers to worry about it is even more stupid.
I was down in London for three days this week - although I didn't act any different, I certainly felt different. It was a bit strange sitting on a tube thinking about what went on in a very similar carriage a couple of weeks beforehand.

Pure speculation, but the fact that the latest explosions in London appear to be detonators only, may be down to the speed of the police in finding the explosives left in the vehicle at Luton, or the ones discovered in Leeds. Hopefully, the chemists, who appear to have left Britain, didn't manufacture enough for a further attack?

Originally posted by sheffco
Pure speculation, but the fact that the latest explosions in London appear to be detonators only, may be down to the speed of the police in finding the explosives left in the vehicle at Luton, or the ones discovered in Leeds. Hopefully, the chemists, who appear to have left Britain, didn't manufacture enough for a further attack?

Or may be it is a less deadly way to show anger at the governments foriegn policies but with out the the death and destruction real bombs would leave...

There will probably be less volitile reactions to detonators exploding than bombs exploding but the government get the same message..

Not that britain will ever give in too terrorist threats, the IRA were active for years with no real turn around on Northern Ireland policies..

Yes it could be a haux, cos the incident is the same as 2 weeks ago, just on a smaller scale, so it may be a copy of 3 train bombs and a bus. Apparantly there is a 'dumby' nail bomb as well.

it'll be a seperate cell - probably the backup cell to the original operation - going out with a bang before the police catch up with them....

Originally posted by LordChaverly
With regard to the deportation of the 'fanatical muslim clerics', this is an excellent idea. There could not be a better example of how our asylum policies and hospitality have been so flagrantly abused than the behaviour of these repulsive and grotesque peddlars of hate and intolerance. However, I remain sceptical about them being given a one way ticket, or being bungled onto a plane, any time soon. As has been shown time and time again, they are likely to explore every possible legal avenue in order to avoid incarceration, extradition or deportation. There are also enough shyster lawyers and misguided fools in this country to defend them in the name of human rights (a concept which is totally alien to these fanatics, as are those of justice, tolerance and freedom).

I wonder what would have been done during WW2 if someone were to be recruiting for the Nazi party in the UK? What if their words and actions incited violence and bombings in London? If the UK and US are truly at war with terrorism why not put these traitors on trial for treason and execute them? If they are not citizens they could be considered spies and dealt with in a similar fashion.

The police probably didn't realise the real threat in the preachings of crazed blood thirsty muslim clerics..

Well they do now dont they..

Originally posted by Chicago
I wonder what would have been done during WW2 if someone were to be recruiting for the Nazi party in the UK? What if their words and actions incited violence and bombings in London? If the UK and US are truly at war with terrorism why not put these traitors on trial for treason and execute them? If they are not citizens they could be considered spies and dealt with in a similar fashion.

We no longer have the death penalty even for treason though...

Could be these guys were just a bunch of wannabees with sweaty visions of immortality and 72 virgins. Luckily they seem to have been entirely incompetent. I await the speculation that they were not actually terrorists at all but actually trainee members of mI5/mossad/CIA/the stonecutters who are committed to ensuring we remain in thrall to the evil corporations who control our brains and souls and yada yada yada

Im scared! I know i shouldn't be but these terrorists are scaring me. I keep having nightmares where im looking out of my window and all the houses and towns are all bombed and its all gray and the sky is full of explosions... or being on a train and breathing in toxic gas and feeling my breathing getting harder and harder.

Im sure itll all end in chaos. I bet there are loads of them hiding away and they arent going to stop until we all give in to their beliefs. I dont want a life of oppression. If i wanted to be a muslim Id be one, but i dont want to be one. Please dont make me!

Im so scared theyll just mass bomb loads of places at the same time. Then itll end in a war, a civil war.. a massive civil war - islam extremists vs western society. Theyll play dirty too, chemical attacks, bombs, all involving civilians.

I cant imagine this NOT happening to be honest. How can we stop them? We cant! We cant possibly catch every single extemist out there, and even if we do, others will become extremists and replace them... Theres no way we can stop it, not that i can think of anyway.

People keep saying live your life and dont let them win but i cant help it.

Please offer nuggets of reassurance to end this fear.

:help: :(

This thread has to be a joke right its something newround would say at the end of the show, how old are you bloody hell grow up... you will never see a attack in your life time unless yor are really unlucky..........if we give in they win :mad:

Originally posted by Jon
This thread has to be a joke right its something newround would say at the end of the show, how old are you bloody hell grow up... you will never see a attack in your life time unless yor are really unlucky..........if we give in they win :mad:

agreed!!

if you live in fear they have won..... terrorism is that... TERROR the fact people get killed is just a bonus to them...

The IRA were bombing not so long ago and it all calmed down so this probably be the same..
chill out and live life to full dont give in to these scumbags!

going for #6 Jon :confused:

Yeah, looks like a wind-up to me too.

However, I can offer kittykat a nugget of reassurance. If you are so worried about bombs, simply make one of your own. The chances of two people being in the same place with a bomb is so remote, that you'll be quite safe! Simple! :thumbsup:

Originally posted by Deejay
going for #6 Jon :confused: Look deejay i'm not having a go at anyone but if we give in to terrorism they win ok.

Yeah I dont think we should give in to these scum we call terrorists.

Although I do think it will all end in tears for everyone. I doubt this will last much longer, it will probably end up being world war 3, but I dont think anyone will survive. Im just gonna live my life as normal and wait for the inevitable.

Originally posted by Jon
Look deejay i'm not having a go at anyone but if we give in to terrorism they win ok.

I never said you were mate, I just think maybe it was a little harsh, some people can't help the way they feel if you get me.

:)

Originally posted by kittykat
......Please offer nuggets of reassurance to end this fear.
:help: :( [/B] ...

I can't see 'nuggets of reasurance' ending that amount of fear.....

Originally posted by Jon
This thread has to be a joke right its something newround would say at the end of the show, how old are you bloody hell grow up... you will never see a attack in your life time unless yor are really unlucky..........if we give in they win :mad:

Dont be mean. I was just airing my feelings which is what i thought this website was for. I just thought people who know a bit more about it might offer reassurance in the form of statistics or facts. Theres no need for such a nasty tone.

Originally posted by spyro2000
it will probably end up being world war 3,
Funny... That's what I think every time I see Bush climbing out of a helicopter or golf buggy with a bunch of cronies and an inane grin :(

Troll nipped in the bud? ?

Originally posted by kittykat
Im scared! I know i shouldn't be but these terrorists are scaring me. I keep having nightmares where im looking out of my window and all the houses and towns are all bombed and its all gray and the sky is full of explosions... or being on a train and breathing in toxic gas and feeling my breathing getting harder and harder.

Im sure itll all end in chaos. I bet there are loads of them hiding away and they arent going to stop until we all give in to their beliefs. I dont want a life of oppression. If i wanted to be a muslim Id be one, but i dont want to be one. Please dont make me!

Im so scared theyll just mass bomb loads of places at the same time. Then itll end in a war, a civil war.. a massive civil war - islam extremists vs western society. Theyll play dirty too, chemical attacks, bombs, all involving civilians.

I cant imagine this NOT happening to be honest. How can we stop them? We cant! We cant possibly catch every single extemist out there, and even if we do, others will become extremists and replace them... Theres no way we can stop it, not that i can think of anyway.

People keep saying live your life and dont let them win but i cant help it.

Please offer nuggets of reassurance to end this fear.

:help: :(

It is scary.
Lets face it though, in England we are more used to it than other places due to the IRA. We have also been super close to a nuclear war back in the 80's with Russia and I remember having lots of nightmares about that, I think a lot of people thought that would be the end as Russia were actually capable of doing it.
Tony Blair is at last doing something he should have done a few years ago, he is talking with the Muslim leaders in this country and they will hopefully make more of a difference than he can. The people who do this are not practising Muslims, so you need not be afraid of Muslims or being made to be a Muslim. The Bombers in london were not discriminating and choosing to keep Muslims safe.
Everyone feels a little twitchy about their safety. The best people to reassure you are people who have lived through times like this before. Dads and grandads are great for that.

Originally posted by bonny
..... The Bombers in london were not discriminating and choosing to keep Muslims safe.

:confused: Ok, i'ts late, it may be me - but what do you mean here, bonny :confused:

It looks like a reply to this bit DT:
Originally posted by kittykat
.... they arent going to stop until we all give in to their beliefs. I dont want a life of oppression. If i wanted to be a muslim Id be one, but i dont want to be one. Please dont make me!

Originally posted by Draggletail
:confused: Ok, i'ts late, it may be me - but what do you mean here, bonny :confused:

I may be wrong but to me it seems that what bunny is saying is that the bombers didnt care wether any Muslims would get caught up inthe boming. But thats what i got from the statement anyway

Originally posted by kittykat
Im scared! I know i shouldn't be but these terrorists are scaring me. I keep having nightmares where im looking out of my window and all the houses and towns are all bombed and its all gray and the sky is full of explosions... or being on a train and breathing in toxic gas and feeling my breathing getting harder and harder.

Im sure itll all end in chaos. I bet there are loads of them hiding away and they arent going to stop until we all give in to their beliefs. I dont want a life of oppression. If i wanted to be a muslim Id be one, but i dont want to be one. Please dont make me!

Im so scared theyll just mass bomb loads of places at the same time. Then itll end in a war, a civil war.. a massive civil war - islam extremists vs western society. Theyll play dirty too, chemical attacks, bombs, all involving civilians.

I cant imagine this NOT happening to be honest. How can we stop them? We cant! We cant possibly catch every single extemist out there, and even if we do, others will become extremists and replace them... Theres no way we can stop it, not that i can think of anyway.

People keep saying live your life and dont let them win but i cant help it.

Please offer nuggets of reassurance to end this fear.

:help: :(

I'm taking what you've said here at face value, because even if it is a wind up (which I doubt), you've raised a valid point.

Everybody keeps saying, 'don't be scared because that's what they want'. We are told to carry on regardless. 'We're not afraid!' ect.

But let's face it, a basic human instinct is fear. We all have it.

So, have it, feel it, let it be there...

JUST DON'T GIVE IN TO IT!

Would it help to know that all over the country people feel the same way as you? We will get through this as we have done before.

(I remember when I was very young, the Nuclear War seemed to be the next logical step. We were all told to prepare for it by the government; but it never came. Now that was scary!!!)

I'm more scared of how the government are going to use this to take away our already eroded civil liberties.

kittykat...as someone who worked in London during the IRA's last bombing campaign, I have to say that I thought your original post was a wind-up.

If it isn't, then I think you need to stop obsessing over recent events and just get on with leading a "normal" life, which is what most Londoners, and most of those who work in London, have done.

The likelihood of you, personally, being caught up in some sort of bombing incident are millions to one against, and if it does happen, it happens....there's no point in worrying about it....what will be will be, as they say!

So my advice is to stop worrying and get on with enjoying your life, however long or short that may be!

:smile:

P.S. I also have to say, kittykat, that I think your postings are scare-mongering rubbish, and are really not helpful in any way :rant:

Kittykat,

Calm down.

There are many more likely ways in which you could end your days than be killed by terrorists. You're highly unlikely to end up as a Muslim if you don't want to be one.

Assuming this isn't a wind up in poor taste, in my 44 years we've had 4 or 5 nuclear alerts that came close to WW3, innumerable IRA and other bombings, at least 4 warnings by nutters of various persuasions from Nostrodamus onwards that teh end is nigh - and we're all still here.

Now just chill out, take a Dandelion Break, and calm down before the forum members start queueing up to explain matters to you like they did in the film 'Airplane'. :)

Joe

The likelihood of being caught up in one bombing is remote. I've been caught up in two - Manchester when I was little and London on 7/7 - I wasn't in London at the time, but my cousin was on the train at Edgeware Road.

I'm scared - REALLY scared, about what other human beings are capable of and have been reduced to tears several times at the thought of what could've happened and what might be to come. But I am still going about my daily business as usual which is the idea behind the "we are not afraid" campaign - that although individually we may be afraid, we are going to go about our business as usual and show defiance as a nation.

So yeah, it is fine to be scared, but don't let these people stop you going about your daily life because then they win.

Originally posted by kittykat
Im scared! I know i shouldn't be but these terrorists are scaring me. I keep having nightmares where im looking out of my window and all the houses and towns are all bombed and its all gray and the sky is full of explosions... or being on a train and breathing in toxic gas and feeling my breathing getting harder and harder.

Im sure itll all end in chaos. I bet there are loads of them hiding away and they arent going to stop until we all give in to their beliefs. I dont want a life of oppression. If i wanted to be a muslim Id be one, but i dont want to be one. Please dont make me!

Im so scared theyll just mass bomb loads of places at the same time. Then itll end in a war, a civil war.. a massive civil war - islam extremists vs western society. Theyll play dirty too, chemical attacks, bombs, all involving civilians.

I cant imagine this NOT happening to be honest. How can we stop them? We cant! We cant possibly catch every single extemist out there, and even if we do, others will become extremists and replace them... Theres no way we can stop it, not that i can think of anyway.

People keep saying live your life and dont let them win but i cant help it.

Please offer nuggets of reassurance to end this fear.

:help: :(

massive civil war? Not a chance.

Look the chances of ou being caught in any attack are far less remote than being run over by a bus. I'd be more worried about bus drivers :D

This ott reactionalism is a bit much. How old are you? Don't you remember the IRA bombing campaigns?

And there is a way we can stop it. Stop idiotic right wing groups using this as a way to vent their neo-nazist tendencies on random members of the Muslim population and thus perpetuating more anti-British feeling. Stop your political leaders abusing this country's foreign policy.

People will only give their lives to a cause if they have a reason to do so. Take that reason away.

Originally posted by spyro2000
I may be wrong but to me it seems that what bunny is saying is that the bombers didnt care wether any Muslims would get caught up inthe boming. But thats what i got from the statement anyway

You got it.

Kittykat, try thinking of it in these terms.

You have probably more chance of winning the big one on the lottery!!! so what are the chances of that??

Originally posted by robbie
How old are you? Don't you remember the IRA bombing campaigns?


I remember, being about 8 or 9, and hearing about the police raiding a house that was being used to store IRA weapons in London. I was terrified, and couldn't sleep. I was convinced the IRA were outside my bedroom window and would come to get me.

The chances of being affected by terrorists is very low - I was in London on Thursday and the only effect the bombs had on me was I had to get a taxi instead of the tube. Here in Sheffield, the likelyhood of us being affected is very low indeed.

There's no point in being scared about what might not happen and what you can't control.

You live your life in fear and they've won. It's that simple.
:|

Having read quite a few comments over the past couple of weeks regarding all the terrorists bombings ete is all this unrest in britain heading towards something terrible. Listening to all comments from all sides and speaking to a lot of people there seems to be atmosphere that alot of people are sick of there country being attacked internally.Speaking to a lot of the older folk there opinion is that alot of the current problems have been "coming for a while".Blaming gulf wars , human rights, occupation of other countrys is a fair point , but is there something simmering in britain which if this continues could explode. I personally am totally depressed with the current state of affairs and feel there is worse to come, hope not but it all looks ominous in my opinion. We can argue till we are blue in the face about whos to blame but hasnt there got to be some radical changes before its to late.Just to note i have no extreme political believes, im not clever enough.:(

No it isn't, brooksy.

And intelligence isn't needed for extreme political views.

This country was disrupted more by the IRA in the 30 years of 'the troubles' than it has been so far.

The current bombers are murderous thugs, no more, no less.

We don't have civil wars against criminals.

So calm down and stop stirring it.

Joe

No it isn't heading for war, although there'll be more terrorist attcks and more resulting death.

You're more likely to kill yourself then be killed in a terrorist incident. Kinda puts it into perspective?

I really hope we dont have a civil war,it wont acheive anything except more bloodshed.
But as to the comment about simmering unrest that is a fair comment,I know from speaking to many people that they are indeed fed up with the way things are.
Its what you do about it that counts,you have to keep within the laws of the land and NOT do something stupid,its the only way.:thumbsup:

I wasnt trying to stir anything, speaking to a lot of older people its just quite a few of them are of this opinion. I thought that was the whole point , you no freedom of speach and all that. Apologys if you find this offensive?.:(

Originally posted by brooksy
Having read quite a few comments over the past couple of weeks regarding all the terrorists bombings ete is all this unrest in britain heading towards something terrible. Listening to all comments from all sides and speaking to a lot of people there seems to be atmosphere that alot of people are sick of there country being attacked internally.Speaking to a lot of the older folk there opinion is that alot of the current problems have been "coming for a while".Blaming gulf wars , human rights, occupation of other countrys is a fair point , but is there something simmering in britain which if this continues could explode. I personally am totally depressed with the current state of affairs and feel there is worse to come, hope not but it all looks ominous in my opinion. We can argue till we are blue in the face about whos to blame but hasnt there got to be some radical changes before its to late.Just to note i have no extreme political believes, im not clever enough.:(
I doubt if you could call it a civil war!
What we have is a minority in the country that have chosen to wage war against the people.
The first attack was in effect, a declaration of war against the good people of this country.
The terror attacks cannot be blamed on any of the points that you have stated as, these minority groups responsible are working to create fear and destruction for reasons of their own interpretation of the scriptures.

They are, a minority!

No, this country is NOT heading towards a civil war.

And this is not a helpful, sensible or wise topic in the current climate.

StarSparkle

Why not, we all live here. It affects us all dosnt it, why cant people discuss things about things they feel strongly about?.

Of course we aren't.

Civil war happens where there is economic and political turmoil, and despite what you might think, we are a long way from either of those positions.



Anyway, civil war suggests that there will be at least two protagonists, and for the life of me I can't see who is going to fight who in the UK. Can you?

Originally posted by brooksy
I personally am totally depressed with the current state of affairs and feel there is worse to come, hope not but it all looks ominous in my opinion. We can argue till we are blue in the face about whos to blame but hasnt there got to be some radical changes before its to late

In one way I think you are wrong. The sky is not falling on our heads.

However, I do think you are also right - when you say

We can argue till we are blue in the face about whos to blame but hasnt there got to be some radical changes before its to late

The sky may not be falling on our heads, but all that divides us from mayhem is a thin veneer of civility and, believe it or not, politeness. It's a collective effort though, and we all need to work at it; it's thin on the ground in some places, plentiful in others.

Radical changes are always painful, and someone always suffers. And to agree on a set of radical policies, and I mean radical in the sense of getting to the root of the problems, then there's 15 centuries of anachronistic and vestigial practices we need to ditch and a massive education and 're-education' required in order to bring about a nation of citizens acting with "enlightened self-interest". Agreement will be difficult. Especially because of the similarities with Pol Pot.

Of course, the other option is to force radical changes through without the consent of the people involved - not a palatable choice for a 'democratic' system, less problematic for a nationalist dictator.

What would these radical changes be?

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Agreement will be difficult. Especially because of the similarities with Pol Pot.


Not sure I understand that bit ?

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
What would these radical changes be?

Make religion ilegal?:D

Originally posted by venger
Not sure I understand that bit ?

er, erase historical precedents, re-educate the population in how to live and relate to one another and the state (or lack of it)

Khmer Rouge all over it.

You don't think we can institute radical changes and have a simultaneous miraculous revolution in consciousness?

The problem with changing people's minds, especially about a decision that will put them out of a job, is that you generally have to do it with a big stick or even a bullet. Words will generally fail to convince any turkey to vote for christmas. A gun to the head is quite effective.

Originally posted by sccsux
Make religion ilegal?:D

Drive it underground...not good. See OP for details...

To kittykat: feel the fear and do it anyway. I was on the tube last week, it felt a little scary but like thousands of Londoners I did it anyway and survived. No big shakes.

You're highly unlikely to be killed by a terrorist bomb, so try not to worry about it too much, just get on with your life. Now, the collapse of the capitalist system and a new dark ages, that does scare me, but that's (mostly) a different matter.

Perhaps this is the best way to deal with traitors.....Islamic cleric gets life for inciting war. For more details. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8562951/)

Originally posted by Chicago
Perhaps this is the best way to deal with traitors.....Islamic cleric gets life for inciting war. For more details. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8562951/)

It would be a bit pointless here in Britain, Chicago.

Over here he'd probably be let out after six months if he was a good boy and kept his cell (a room usually found in British prisons, containing more comforts than your average working class home) clean. On his release, his social worker would transport him to his new job where he would learn how NOT to work but still receive a hefty income which would be used to top-up his successful claim for wrongful imprisonment.

Several years later he would be arrested once again for inciting war, and the 'powers-that-be' will gasp, "Wow,...we weren't expecting that!!" But he'll be let off because no bugger in the judicial system will want to risk looking a fool twice.

A decade down the line he'll blow up 50 or so innocents, but NOBODY will have seen it coming.:loopy:

Originally posted by saxon51
Over here he'd probably be let out after six months if he was a good boy and kept his cell (a room usually found in British prisons, containing more comforts than your average working class home) clean. On his release, his social worker would transport him to his new job where he would learn how NOT to work but still receive a hefty income which would be used to top-up his successful claim for wrongful imprisonment.

[/B]

Sorry, but are you living in some kind of dream world? Did you just lift that directly from the Sun editorial?

No....personal opinion.

But please tell us what would happen to him if he was in Britain.

Well, he'd probably be tried by a court and given a punishment?

On his release he'd probably be met by the BNP.

Sorry for the somewhat harsh reaction to what you typed but we do not live in a land where young convicts get driven from a cushy prison to a cushy job and a great life.

Sorry kathythebean, I wrote on impulse with regards the lax - if not laughable - judicial system in Britain at the moment and it wasn't meant to be a sweeping statement.

Well, he'd probably be tried by a court and given a punishment?

We all know that the British version of 'punishment' is not exactly severe. With regards terrorism, the terrorist has to blow someone up before action is taken against them. Civil liberties and all that.

On his release he'd probably be met by the BNP.

One would hope so, but the BNP thugs would be the ones to get locked up (I don't support them by the way) and the warmonger would get the compensation.

Sorry for the somewhat harsh reaction to what you typed but we do not live in a land where young convicts get driven from a cushy prison to a cushy job and a great life.

I appreciate this. I was refering to the more adult and responsible criminals who should know better, but choose to do wrong.

I have seen the conditions in British prison cells in documentaries. Heated, square meals, PCs, and TVs. The last cell I saw like this was occupied by a man who had broken into a pensioner's home and killed her pet dog so that he could rob her of her savings. The old lady he robbed didn't have all these things when he robbed her.

I was just having a dig at the non-existent justice in this country.

Just my opinion on what I think about our justice.:thumbsup:

Originally posted by saxon51
With regards terrorism, the terrorist has to blow someone up before action is taken against them. Civil liberties and all that.
Not Brazilian "terrorists". I believe the UK are taking a far tougher line with them nowadays.

Originally posted by sheffco
Some days ago, I proposed in a post on this thread, that the "Fanatical Muslim Clerics" be deported. That the muslim leaders should be told to clean out their own communities, and the teachers in the mosques should be controlled in some way.
Red Robbo called it ridiculous.

Please get your facts correct sheffo. In your original post (which, incidentally, is on a different thread) you made no mention of deporting "Fanatical Muslim Clerics" at all. This is the relevant part of your post -
Originally posted by sheffco

Vengeance is mine, as the saying goes, and if the leaders of the mosques persist in saying that the fundamentalists are not among them, then we should legislate for a more open control on what they preach.

This is not quite what you are now claiming you said. And you have also taken my reply out of context. This is what I posted -

Originally posted by redrobbo

Do you not realise how ridiculous this statement is? In effect, you've found the leaders of the mosques (they're called Imams by the way) guilty of harbouring fundamentalists whether they admit it or not! Talk about a kangeroo court!

And you want legislation for more 'open controls' on what Muslims can preach too? Hmmm, you'll be telling me what to think next, and then legislating to control what I hear. Wasn't there a book on this subject - "1984" I think it was called?

I am quite prepared to debate with you sheffco, and I have no objection to you referring to previous exchanges between us - but would ask that you get your facts correct when doing so. Thank you.

Red

I have no wish to enter into any kind of debate, so we shall just say that "It Came To Pass".
It now remains to be seen, if the Immams will produce any kind of information of the "Hatred Nurturing Cells" that unquestionably exist.
It is interesting to watch the new or little known (Previously) muslim societies that jostle to put forward their views on how the present situation should be handled.
Plenty of advice as to how the proposed anti-terrorism laws should be toned down, but I have yet to see one of these representatives put forward any proposals as to how they will root out the evil in their midst.

Anyone wondering why suicide bombers become suicide bombers, this article from the horse's mouth (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1535115,00.html) makes for very interesting reading.

From now on ,I think we can all rest easily in our beds after the recent message from our Nation's Leader , Tony Blair.
Tony stepped up to the rostrum and faced a familiar sight-----a camera. No smiles this time , of course .
Our Leader puts on his most serious face and finds his most sincere voice. He reassures us that terrorism is evil and his government will be in the forefront to fight this evil menace .
He narrows his eyes and looks into the middle distance. All over the U.K. little old ladies are hanging on his every word. What a man ! What a leader of men ! What a man of principle !
His voice seems almost messianic and the sincerity drips through.......but suddenly all is spoilt ! An even more God-like voice booms out from the Heavens ,

STABLE DOORS........HORSES..........STABLE DOORS.......HORSES................................ ..............................

But you really should take a moment to marvel at the lock that Tony's fitted to that stabledoor...it's brand new and very shiney...it cost a lot of tax-payers money, so ruddy well look at it...no don't question Tony, just sigh in awe at the lock!!!

What gets me is that the members of parliament pontificating that life should go on as normal, including Our Tone, are riding around in bullet proof cars and have security people in tow that obviously cuts down on there chances of being attacked. Most of them are well away from London during the summer recess.

I would imagine few use the tube and even less the 'bus. They should get down amongst the real people in the real world.

I think that Tone uses his son Ewan as a proxy for all that down-to-earth malarky...didn't I read that the hapless offspring of Tone and the human letterbox had run over a pensioner at the weekend?

...and while they're busy searching for the terrorists from last week's attack, next weeks bombers are getting ready for another strike.

Originally posted by alchresearch
...next weeks bombers are getting ready for another strike.
Is it over wages or conditions?

Do they come under UNISON?

Originally posted by Greybeard
When it comes to incitement to hatred based on 'opinion', there are some Muslim clerics as dedicated as the BNP. Hopefully both sides will be made to see the error of their ways.

Wouldnt it be just great if dedicated Muslim clerics and equally dedicated BNPs found they had so much to agree with that they could no longer disagree and then half the job of the mods would be eliminated. Perhaps thats too far fetched. :D

Carmine , I hope they didn't run over the pensioner deliberately ! I mean , I know our population is getting , "top heavy " but that's going too far , surely.
If it is Government policy to cull Senior Citizens in this foul manner , I'm keeping my eyes peeled for , "Two Jags " Prescott.

Just been sent this photo. The left leg of the guy at the back looks a bit iffy as well.

Need to blow it up really to have a good look at it.

http://www.legitgov.org/cctv_image_of_uk_suspects_240705.html

(Hope I posted this in the right thread, Joe. :) )

Originally posted by CaroleK
Just been sent this photo. The left leg of the guy at the back looks a bit iffy as well.

Need to blow it up really to have a good look at it.

http://www.legitgov.org/cctv_image_of_uk_suspects_240705.html

(Hope I posted this in the right thread, Joe. :) )

it's (http://news.yahoo.com/photo/050724/photos_pl_afp/050724214150_vesdc65b_photo1) definitely a poorly doctored image.

One wonders what its provenance is.

Also just found this commentary:


http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx?articleid=245875&area=/insight/insight__columnists/

Sigh, you're looking at artefact's from low quality photograph taken from a low quality CCTV.

The pavement outside also goes into the Telephone box, and the post.

In fact there are quite a few horizontal anomalies. There isn't any evidence of doctoring to my eyes. It's so ridiculous to assume that the authorities have issued an image with 'mistakes' that would be harder to get wrong than right if they had been produced in Photoshop.

Remember horizontal hold? on your old TV set?

You're looking at the equivilent of the face of a demon in the flames of 9/11, or numbers on the rocks of the Moon.

Or Jesus in Peru (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49453&highlight=jesus+peru)

Hehe... or UFO landing grounds.

Originally posted by DanSumption
Or Jesus in Peru (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49453&highlight=jesus+peru)

Dan, can you find me Elvis, too? :hihi:

:) Sierra

Originally posted by Sierra
Dan, can you find me Elvis, too? :hihi:
Certainly, he works in the Oxfam shop on Ecclesall Road (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?postid=511145#post511145)

Originally posted by Tony
Sigh, you're looking at artefact's from low quality photograph taken from a low quality CCTV.

The pavement outside also goes into the Telephone box, and the post.

In fact there are quite a few horizontal anomalies. There isn't any evidence of doctoring to my eyes. It's so ridiculous to assume that the authorities have issued an image with 'mistakes' that would be harder to get wrong than right if they had been produced in Photoshop.

Remember horizontal hold? on your old TV set?

You're looking at the equivilent of the face of a demon in the flames of 9/11, or numbers on the rocks of the Moon.

don't sigh tony, take a closer look.

In fact, anyone with photoshop take a look. Increase the dpi to 300 (resample image) and apply a gentle unsharp mask.

Check for horizontal scanning artefacts. - there's one big one running accross the middle of the image. The horizontal drift is accross the whole image.

The anomaly by the guys arm, where the railing appears to go in front of it looks suss, and there is no horizontal drift on the image near those rows.

Can't see any of the other things you pointed out.

Why is it ridiculous to suppose that one image out of all of them is clearly doctored. This single image appears to have been released by scotland yard, exclusively to AP.

As you say its a low res image of a cctv screen, and because of that, the anomaly stands out visually, even on a cursory inspection.

Regardless of what you think of 'conspiracy theorists', that particular image has been doctored. If you look at the glass behind them you can clearly see the reflected silhouette of the second man, with lighter points corresponding to the white feature at the top of his rucksack. The light coloured baseball cap of the third man appears to be entirely absent from the
reflection.

I'm not attaching any significance to the fact, images get doctored all the time in the press and media.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
it's (http://news.yahoo.com/photo/050724/photos_pl_afp/050724214150_vesdc65b_photo1) definitely a poorly doctored image.

One wonders what its provenance is.
I showed this to a friend of mine, who is something of an expert on photo-retouching. His comments:
It's not retouched - they're literally and figuratively seeing ghosts.

If you look closely - but squinting - you will notice that the guy's sleeve ends just *above* the bar, and that he probably has his left hand in his trouser's pocket. (which is more proof that he's not pasted in, 'cuz the other guys do exactly the same - gangs tend to behave similar).
You can see that the sleeve ends above the bar when you see the darker - slightly curved - row of 2 or 3 pixels which is the end of the sleeve.

The little triangle of pixels underneath the bar could indeed be seen as part of his sleeve, but it isn't. It's simply the outer corner of the stairs behind him, which accidentaly aligns with his sleeve.

Furthermore - and this is actual proof it isn't retouched - look at the guy's head. A bar runs into his head (from his left) as well... if this would have been retouched, it would have been such a bad job, that the retoucher surely is looking for another job right now.

What they see is only 'pixel-ghosting' - typical for lo-res images.
Which actually adds more proof that it isn't retouched: it would be nigh impossible to superimpose an image on such a lo-res image, mainly because you can't trace lo-res images properly, but also because it would be *extremely* difficult to get the pixel-ghosting exactly right (or wrong, depending on how you look at things)... You see the whitish ghost-line on his left side ?
Yes ? Now look at the other guys... same line (because they move forwards, and the camera CCD is too slow, so you get movement ghosting). This is almost impossible to do in retouche.

Originally posted by DanSumption
I showed this to a friend of mine, who is something of an expert on photo-retouching. His comments:

I'd disagree with quite a bit of that.

But the main part - that his hand is in his pocket - is probably right. That curved line of darker pixel is his elbow.

And now of course, he appears in the reflection too :)

What the thinker thinks the prover proves.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
I'd disagree with quite a bit of that.
Which bits?

This isn't really a case of "what the thinker thinks" - I had an open mind on the subject, just asked my friend for his opinion without making any suggestions. Like I said, my friend is quite an expert on this subject, having been retouching photos for more years than I've had hot dinners (he was also development team-leader on the image-manipulation software that was the precursor to Photoshop, so he knows a lot about what is & isn't possible). I'm very much inclined to go with what he says.

Originally posted by DanSumption
Which bits?

This isn't really a case of "what the thinker thinks" - I had an open mind on the subject, just asked my friend for his opinion without making any suggestions. Like I said, my friend is quite an expert on this subject, having been retouching photos for more years than I've had hot dinners (he was also development team-leader on the image-manipulation software that was the precursor to Photoshop, so he knows a lot about what is & isn't possible). I'm very much inclined to go with what he says.

You misunderstand me.

I do agree with him 100%. I wasn't looking for the end of the sleeve above the bar, but below it, so I didn't see or look for the curve of the elbow that shows his arm pointing into his crotch.

- hence "the thinker thinks...."

But I think his "because gangs behave like that" sounded like post justification.

And his assertion that the image has definitely not been doctored is, I would say - especially coming from an expert viewing a downsampled image - a very rash assertion indeed; simply because we cannot possibly tell if the image was doctored before downsampling.

I'm certainly not disputing his abilities.

Originally posted by royjames
I really hope we dont have a civil war,it wont acheive anything except more bloodshed.
But as to the comment about simmering unrest that is a fair comment,I know from speaking to many people that they are indeed fed up with the way things are.
Its what you do about it that counts,you have to keep within the laws of the land and NOT do something stupid,its the only way.:thumbsup:

Islam is a peaceful religion as Blair and the so called moderate Muslims keep telling us.....................

Christians face jail for giving treats to children of Muslims


THREE Indonesian housewives face up to five years in prison for allegedly trying to lure Muslim children into Christianity at a Sunday School “Happy Week”.
Senior Christian figures claim that the prosecution is politically motivated and part of a campaign of persecution by Islamic fundamentalists against Indonesia’s Christian minority — about 8 per cent of the Muslim-majority population.



The three women faced threats from a yelling mob of 150 fundamentalists during a court appearance in West Java last week. It is claimed that the women were teaching lessons in reading and writing to mixed classes of Christian and Muslim children, taking them on trips to parks and swimming pools, and rewarding them with treats such as pencils for memorising Christian prayers and Bible verses. Many of the alleged offences took place at a special Happy Week earlier this year, although the lessons began in 2003.

A claim of “Christianisation” was made against the women by a chapter of the Indonesian Council of Muslim Clerics, which alleged that they enticed Muslim children to participate and that they had tried to convert the children to Christianity by giving them gifts.

The three, Rebekka Zakaria, Ratna Mala Bangun and Ety Pangesti, have been held in prison since May, charged under Indonesia’s criminal law with using lies, deception or enticement to change a child’s religion. They are evangelical Christians who belong to the Church of David’s Camp in Haurgelis, a strongly Muslim fundamentalist area in West Java which is about 2 per cent Christian.

They say that the Muslim children were friends of Christian youngsters and were attending with the consent of their parents. No attempts were made to convert them, they say.

Bambang Widjaya, the chairman of the Indonesian Council of Evangelical Churches, said: “The main motive behind this is political. Fundamentalists want to use this case to launch a political campaign and rally support for their goal of implementing Sharia (Islamic law).

“The Government is too scared of Muslim voters to intervene. In many areas Muslims are tolerant, but in other areas where there are fundamentalists there is discrimination. Fundamentalists are growing in influence in our country.

“These women have been terrorised by mobs, who have even tried to hit them. They are not scared, however. They are very tough women.”

About 10,000 Christians were killed in Indonesia between 1998 and 2003 and about 1,000 churches were burnt down by Muslim mobs, according to campaigners. Although religious conflict has eased in recent years campaigners say that about 100 churches have been closed down in the past five years in West Java.

VARIED BELIEFS

Indonesia is the largest Muslim country: 88 per cent of the 210 million people are Muslim. Others are Christian (8 per cent), Hindu (2) and Buddhist (1)

Radical groups such as Laskar Jihad and Jemaah Islamiyah want a separate Islamic state in the region, and have attacked Christian churches and villages

Such clashes killed more than 5,000 in the eastern Maluku islands (1999-2002) and over 3,000 in Central Sulawesi province since 2000

Christians helping in Aceh after the Boxing Day tsunami were asked to leave for “making Muslims uncomfortable”

Originally posted by eguin
THREE Indonesian housewives face up to five years in prison for allegedly trying to lure Muslim children into Christianity at a Sunday School “Happy Week”.
I'm not quite sure how this relates to the terror attacks in London, perhaps you'd care to enlighten us?

Originally posted by DanSumption
Which bits?

This isn't really a case of "what the thinker thinks" - I had an open mind on the subject, just asked my friend for his opinion without making any suggestions. Like I said, my friend is quite an expert on this subject, having been retouching photos for more years than I've had hot dinners (he was also development team-leader on the image-manipulation software that was the precursor to Photoshop, so he knows a lot about what is & isn't possible). I'm very much inclined to go with what he says.


Well I'm waiting till I see a blown up version of it myself before I decide. And I'm certainly gonna try to get several expert opinions on the matter before I come to any conclusion..


'and the camera CCD is too slow, so you get movement ghosting). '


Well these images won't be much good as evidence in a court of law then, will they.


And eguin, both forced Islamification AND forced Christianisation are both WRONG.



Meanwhile, back on the trail:


'But 16-year-old Hasib Hussain, a namesake of one of the putative bombers and of Pakistani descent, said in the interview that a photograph of a passport purporting to show bomber Hasib Hussain, 19, was his, and not that of the bomber,.'


http://www.rense.com/general67/cdom.htm

I have viewed the CCTV still on 'Photoshop' and in the zoomed out mode I can clearly see the reflections of all three individuals in the window (or whatever it is) behind them. As I zoom in, the so called edited pixels become clearer, but the reflections blend out.

No matter how long I look at it, the evidence for it being genuine and unretouched far outweighs the evidence for it being 'dodgy'.

If you have it on your PC and you can zoom in and out, start off zoomed right in on the suspect part and zoom out slowly whilst looking at the window behind them. You'll see the reflections appear at the same rate as the dodgy pixels disappear,

CaroleK, are you related by any chance to JosephK?

Your posts seem to indicate that you live in a Kafkasesque world where nothing is quite what it seems and where mysterious and powerful forces are at work which manipulate our perceptions of events.

Originally posted by LordChaverly
CaroleK, are you related by any chance to JosephK?

Your posts seem to indicate that you live in a Kafkasesque world where nothing is quite what it seems and where mysterious and powerful forces are at work which manipulate our perceptions of events.

FranzK has it right though...

Or do we live in a world where 'everything is as it seems and that powerful forces are at not at work manipulating our perceptions of public events'

As to the perceptions we see and hear of course this can be manipulated to a certain degree.

That pic doesnt look retouched at all (use pshop myself on a daily professional basis)

Why do conspiracy theorists always think the Evil Invisible Hidden Conspiratorial Government are gonna leave em clues? (that only intrepid internet reporters who live in their parents basement can solve)

Originally posted by CaroleK
Well I'm waiting till I see a blown up version of it myself before I decide. And I'm certainly gonna try to get several expert opinions on the matter before I come to any conclusion..


I suspect that if the first expert opinion you'd heard had said that it was doctored, you'd have believed it.

No, I still have my doubts. For instance they were all billed as going on a trip together, so the high probability of all of them entering the tube together is unsurprising, so no need to doctor.

Unless there weren't four of them going on the trip. I'll have to track down an original article which gives these details.

But opinions of the photo are mixed. Here's an enlargement:

http://wagnews.blogspot.com/2005/07/evidence-luton-cctv-image-is-fake.html


Also, isn't there usually a time facility on CCTV shots?

Seems like the last two bombers were asylum seekers,well who would have thought it eh?
We give them a home, benefits and this is how they repay us,will we EVER learn?:(

Originally posted by royjames
Seems like the last two bombers were asylum seekers,well who would have thought it eh?
We give them a home, benefits and this is how they repay us,will we EVER learn?:(
Seems they were also both men. Why don't you do us all a favour and go shoot yourself now Roy?

Originally posted by DanSumption
Seems they were also both men. Why don't you do us all a favour and go shoot yourself now Roy?


I ought to report your post for being downright nasty but then again your hardly worth the effort.
Silly boy.

Originally posted by DanSumption
Seems they were also both men. Why don't you do us all a favour and go shoot yourself now Roy?


Mod. Note

Uncalled for and unnecessary.

Please don't get in to a slanging match.

Thank You,

Joe

It wasn't a slanging match, it was a valid point (albeit a very facetious one). These terrorists were all men. Therefore, if all men go and shoot themselves, we won't have to worry about these terrorists any more.

Roy is a man, so I thought perhaps he could start the ball rolling.

Or should we just restrict the shooting to asylum seekers?

Originally posted by royjames
Seems like the last two bombers were asylum seekers,well who would have thought it eh?
We give them a home, benefits and this is how they repay us,will we EVER learn?:(

Perhaps a contributing factor has been the attitude towards asylum seekers (and black / coloured immigrants generally) from a some of the locals?

Originally posted by DanSumption
It wasn't a slanging match, it was a valid point (albeit a very facetious one). These terrorists were all men. Therefore, if all men go and shoot themselves, we won't have to worry about these terrorists any more.

Roy is a man, so I thought perhaps he could start the ball rolling.

Or should we just restrict the shooting to asylum seekers?


You are pathetic,you really need to grow up and stop acting like a siily child.

Originally posted by royjames
You are pathetic,you really need to grow up and stop acting like a siily child.
But I like acting like a silly child.

What's your excuse?

Originally posted by DanSumption
But I like acting like a silly child.

What's your excuse?

I doubt your acting too much,your a natural.
:loopy:
Back to the thread, now it seems the terrorists are indeed asylum seekers will the goverment tighten up our borders ?
Not a hope in hell.

Originally posted by Longcol
Perhaps a contributing factor has been the attitude towards asylum seekers (and black / coloured immigrants generally) from a some of the locals?

I'm sure that the identities of the suicide bombers, and the more recent failed suicide bombers, will really change peoples natural born mistrust of some of the ethnic minorities in our midst.
The investigation net spreads, and yet there are still people out there that sympathise with them, and help them evade capture. Families, friends and associates.
The suspicions are, that they are part of a network of cells, controlled by leaders possibly by way of the internet.
Each successful arrest or "Raid" could provide further evidence, via examination of lap-tops or mobile phones.
The snippets of information released to National News services is just the tip of the iceberg.
Congratulations to the security services, and I hope they continue to roll them up

The "original" terrorists on 7/7 who succeeded in killing 56 innocent people werent asylum seekers. They were british.

Originally posted by royjames
Back to the thread, now it seems the terrorists are indeed asylum seekers will the goverment tighten up our borders ?
Not a hope in hell.
And back to my original point, if we're going to pin the blame on a group as large, amorphous and generally law-abiding as asylum seekers (a group, by the way, which only accounts for a minority of the suicide bombers), why not extend that a little to a slighly larger, more amorphous group which does include all of the suicide bombers? Such as, for example, all men. Or all people who live in Britain.

Originally posted by skny
The "original" terrorists on 7/7 who succeeded in killing 56 innocent people werent asylum seekers. They were british.

I heard an Islamic representative on "Hard Talk" BBC, describe them as sons, or grandsons of economic migrants, who were so "Dis-affected" by the British way of life, that they felt they had lost their identity.
With the economic decline in the northern cities, they were easy prey for the more radical muslims who can be seen handing out leaflets and propoganda outside most mosques.
Should we just put them on the list of "Mentally Disturbed"?
Should we blame their family for trying to instill the "village mentality" of religion, arranged marriages, strict rule by "Tribal" elders?
All of this was mentioned by the representative as possible reasons that these "Dis-affected" youths killed themselves and 50 odd innocent victims.

At the end of the day it wasnt white british that planted the bombs,and yes its got to be said.
All of them are either the decendants of immigrants ie asylumseekers or refugees or are indeed fairly new asylum seekers who have shown us just what they think of our country .
Two were even claiming housing benefits and all the rest while planning to blow us up,talk about taking the p*ss.

Originally posted by skny
The "original" terrorists on 7/7 who succeeded in killing 56 innocent people werent asylum seekers. They were british.

Were they though? Of course in a legal sense yes. The fact that they were born and raised here would also qualify them as 'British'. But in fundamental, indeed crucial, ways they were not. Indeed, I doubt very much whether they would have described themselves as British in anything other than a superficial sense, probably defining themselves as 'Muslims living in Britain' or 'Pakistanis living in Britain' or suchlike. They were grotesque examples of the failure of the assimilationist and 'multiculturalist' strategies (if we can call them strategies - they are more like exercises in wishful thinking) pursued by successive governments in this country since the 1950s. These misconceived strategies amount to a monumental folly, the consequences of which are only now becoming fully apparent.

Ah , but Lord Chaverly , you seem to forget that we are being protected by our Great Leader , Tony Blair and his stalwarts , such as Geoff Hoon and Jack Straw.
Didn't it give you heart recently to see Tony stride to the rostrum and stare straight at his best friend , the camera ?
Didn't you hear his voice , quavering with emotion and sincerity as he told us WE had to fight this terrorist menace and that the government would be right behind us ?
Then , if you remember , he stared into the middle distance , eyes slightly narrowed [remember , no smiles on this one , Tone ! ] ,and in his almost messianic voice told us that the terrorists would not win-----the , "Bulldog Spirit " would see them vanquished as dust beneath the Blair chariot wheels.
Unfortunately , it was all spoiled when an even more heavenly voice boomed down from the blue sky :----

STABLE DOOR HORSE STABLE DOOR HORSE STABLE DOOR .................................................. ...

Originally posted by LordChaverly
Were they though? Of course in a legal sense yes. The fact that they were born and raised here would also qualify them as 'British'. But in fundamental, indeed crucial, ways they were not. Indeed, I doubt very much whether they would have described themselves as British in anything other than a superficial sense, probably defining themselves as 'Muslims living in Britain' or 'Pakistanis living in Britain' or suchlike. They were grotesque examples of the failure of the assimilationist and 'multiculturalist' strategies (if we can call them strategies - they are more like exercises in wishful thinking) pursued by successive governments in this country since the 1950s. These misconceived strategies amount to a monumental folly, the consequences of which are only now becoming fully apparent.

These kids were just average Muslims until they were radicalised by the Islamist movement; young men whose minds have been filled with poison by those who would never dream of putting themselves up as martyrs. I know this to be the case, as I have spoken to someone who had contacts with one of the bombers.

Blaming multiculturalism for terrorist atrocities is barking up the wrong tree. Better to address the real, political reasons for these misguided and plain evil actions rather than adopting a paranoid and delusional "they're all out to get us" mindset. 'Cos they're not. The vast majority of Muslims live here perfectly peacefully, and contribute much to society.

Multiculturalism is here to stay, and it's a positive influence on modern-day Britain. Deal with it.

Originally posted by Greenback
These kids were just average Muslims until they were radicalised by the Islamist movement; young men whose minds have been filled with poison by those who would never dream of putting themselves up as martyrs. I know this to be the case, as I have spoken to someone who had contacts with one of the bombers.

Blaming multiculturalism for terrorist atrocities is barking up the wrong tree. Better to address the real, political reasons for these misguided and plain evil actions rather than adopting a paranoid and delusional "they're all out to get us" mindset. 'Cos they're not. The vast majority of Muslims live here perfectly peacefully, and contribute much to society.

Multiculturalism is here to stay, and it's a positive influence on modern-day Britain. Deal with it.

If you repeat the mantras of multiculturalism often enough, then they become a 'delusional mind set'. This is precisely what has happened in the UK in recent decades. The claims of the multiculturalists have tended to be taken at face value and have not been subject to the kind of critical scrutiny they warrant. Of course, multiculturalism can be defined in many ways. But the British variant is at the extreme end of the spectrum and is a direct threat to social cohesion. Unfortunately, it has become so ingrained now in public policy, buttressed by vested interests of one kind or another, that it will be difficult to reverse. But at least a few wise voices are now beginning to challenge the malign conventional wisdoms about 'multiculturalism'.

Originally posted by Fareast
Ah , but Lord Chaverly , you seem to forget that we are being protected by our Great Leader , Tony Blair and his stalwarts , such as Geoff Hoon and Jack Straw.
Didn't it give you heart recently to see Tony stride to the rostrum and stare straight at his best friend , the camera ?
Didn't you hear his voice , quavering with emotion and sincerity as he told us WE had to fight this terrorist menace and that the government would be right behind us ?
Then , if you remember , he stared into the middle distance , eyes slightly narrowed [remember , no smiles on this one , Tone ! ] ,and in his almost messianic voice told us that the terrorists would not win-----the , "Bulldog Spirit " would see them vanquished as dust beneath the Blair chariot wheels.
Unfortunately , it was all spoiled when an even more heavenly voice boomed down from the blue sky :----

STABLE DOOR HORSE STABLE DOOR HORSE STABLE DOOR .................................................. ...


Indeed.

How lucky we are to have such a statesman at the helm in these troubled times. Cometh the hour cometh the man. All that is missing is the V sign and the cigar.

There is another analogy though - and that is with a fireman who sets fires in order to put them out. In addition to the vainglorious folly of invading Iraq, Blair has also contributed to the present crisis by his failure to crack down on Islamo-fascist fanatics preaching hatred and also by his lax immigration policies (if policies they can be called). He likes to see himself as a tough guy. In fact he is as weak as water in this regard. I suspect its due to his mortal fear of being called a 'racist' or something similar. Moreover, the flak he would get from Human Rights organisations would probably nothing comapred to the earache he would get from Cherie when he got home. Perhaps he can reflect on the gap between his self image and reality, and upon his responsibility for the present crisis, during his next freebee holiday.

Originally posted by LordChaverly
If you repeat the mantras of multiculturalism often enough, then they become a 'delusional mind set'. This is precisely what has happened in the UK in recent decades. The claims of the multiculturalists have tended to be taken at face value and have not been subject to the kind of critical scrutiny they warrant. Of course, multiculturalism can be defined in many ways. But the British variant is at the extreme end of the spectrum and is a direct threat to social cohesion. Unfortunately, it has become so ingrained now in public policy, buttressed by vested interests of one kind or another, that it will be difficult to reverse. But at least a few wise voices are now beginning to challenge the malign conventional wisdoms about 'multiculturalism'.

And... without the Orwellian doublespeak?

I mean, "claims of the multiculturalists", "extreme end of the spectrum", "vested interests", "malign conventional wisdoms" - que?

mate of mine sent me this last night,reckons its genuine

http://x1.putfile.com/7/20704162817.jpg

Originally posted by royjames
At the end of the day it wasnt white british that planted the bombs,and yes its got to be said.
All of them are either the decendants of immigrants ie asylumseekers or refugees or are indeed fairly new asylum seekers who have shown us just what they think of our country .
Two were even claiming housing benefits and all the rest while planning to blow us up,talk about taking the p*ss.

So it's as easy as that:

White British = Good
Asylum Seekers/ benefit claimers/ Muslims = Evil

Just admit it, that's what you're opinion comes down to doesn't it?

Another point , connected to the point Lord Chaverly was making about the success or otherwise of multiculturalism.
To take the , "heat " out of it and to use another example.
Let's suppose a young Irish boy , aged 17 , is living in Lille , France , as his father has a job there. The boy begins to take an interest in I.R.A. terrorism and expresses the notion that one day he might hope to join the I.R.A.
Now , there's a pretty good chance that his parents , family and any English friends might dissuade him from such a course.The locals wouldn't be that interested one way or another .
Now , let's suppose the same boy is growing up in a Catholic area of Londonderry. Not all the Catholics are sympathetic to the I.R.A. , of course , but a good few are. It's easy for the boy to find a sympathetic ear and eventually make contact with terrorists than if he was living in France.
In exactly the same way , a Muslim youth is able to gain a sympathetic ear ........etc......if he lives in a community that has not much in common with British culture and contains a fair sprinkling of terrorist sympathisers.
Easier to grow crops in a , "good" soil !!

'An Israeli security firm has been chosen to provide security for London's Underground train network.

Verint Systems, a subsidiary of Israel's Comverse Technology announced that Metronet Rail has selected Verint's networked video solution to enhance security of the London Underground, according to an Israel21c report.'


'And they have the motive. As Jewish musician Gilad Atzmon has pointed out, Israel would benefit from a clash between the West and Islam.'

http://www.rense.com/general67/sisr.htm



The same Israel security was also noted re the events of 9/11:

'Then I went back to the first article and it mentions that ICTS handled security at Logan International Airport, from which two of the 9-11 hijacked planes had departed. <http://afrocubaweb.com/news/israelispying.htm> Sure enough, a visit to ICTS' own web site at <http://www.icts-int.com/> confirms that ICTS is in fact an Israeli owned company, and that it sells services to every airport from which the hijacked planes operated, including security'


'One company had automatic inside access to all of the airports from which hijacked planes departed on 9-11, and to the airports used by Richard Reid, the shoe bomber. An Israeli company.'


http://www.geocities.com/queencaz2002/ISRAELIAIRPORTS.html



Also:

http://www.geocities.com/queencaz2002/9-11andTWAT1.html

http://www.geocities.com/queencaz2002/ISRAELICONNECTION.html

Originally posted by CaroleK
As Jewish musician Gilad Atzmon has pointed out, Israel would benefit from a clash between the West and Islam.' Is that supposed to be proof? Great source.

'I heard an Islamic representative on "Hard Talk" BBC, describe them as sons, or grandsons of economic migrants, who were so "Dis-affected" by the British way of life, that they felt they had lost their identity.' - skny

Dis-affected? Well, that includes most of the population of Britain. Black, white and all the shades in between. The lower two thirds of the whole populace. Of the whole western world for that matter. Its only the top third who have found a 'land of milk and honey'. The rest of us are struggling at the bottom, with only a dis-regarded few speaking up for us.

As for multi-culturalism, the only problems I see with it is that of NUMBERS. They've let far too many in, we haven't got a clue as to how many there actually are.

And then there's location. They've been crammed into particular areas, often poor and already run down areas, in the North and London. Is it any wonder that the animosity between communities is growing.

C4 planted all over Britain. Pre-planted bombs that could go off quite easily with a match like the London bombings incident.

You couldn't have created war on the streets of Britain any better if you had sat down and planned it ...

Originally posted by Tony
Is that supposed to be proof? Great source.


No Tony, I highlighted this bit as an attempt to say: look, I'm not jew-bashing here, other jews are making these comments as well.

OK :)

I don't think that anyone thought that you were Jew bashing, but I still don't see why a musicians thoughts are worthy of reporting as credible support for a conspiracy.

It was the Rense.com site I was offering as support of saying that a different group was responsible for 7/7.

Its a cracking site, with some great journalists writing on the important issues.

No, it quotes a 'Jewish musician' as some sort of back up for a conspiracy theory.

In no part of that do I see how that person has anything more to say than myself or yourself. So why quote them?

Is there something that they aren't telling us? Is it a conspiracy?

Or is it just sloppy writing to try to back up a daft idea?


As for the other stuff, the Israelis know more about internal security of its population than anyone else. I don't see why it is a surprise that an Israeli company should advise on security on the Underground.

'As for the other stuff, the Israelis know more about internal security of its population than anyone else. I don't see why it is a surprise that an Israeli company should advise on security on the Underground.' - Tony

They also just happen to be expert 'terrorists' themselves, as regards the Palestinain people.