Did anyone see this 'fly on the wall' documentary last night? A supply teacher secretly filmed her experiences in various schools, including one in Leeds. In most cases, she could not teach anything, because discipline had completely broken down in the classroom and the pupils paid no attention to her. In practice, she had no sanctions to bring to bear to restore order.

Another interesting aspect was how the schools seemed to be manipulating the statistics in order to enhance their positions in the league tables, or to prevent closure (even in one case sending some of the most badly behaved pupils on an outing on the day of an HMI visit). She pointed out that there was a glaring disparity between the statistical evidence (i.e. of the schools supposedly improving their performance) and the reality of life in these schools as she had experienced it.

I saw it and surprised myself by being shocked at how pupils behavoured.

The trouble with stats is that they can always be fiddled and manipulated to tell the story you want. I saw it all the time when I was in local government and I saw it last night on this programme. The sad thing is that the people producing the misleading dross actually begin to belive their own lies!

I'm watching it at the moment. The kids in one class at the Leeds school have had 28 different supply teachers. It wasn't like that 20 years ago. The kids probably have a lack of stability at home and this is compounded by the ever changing faces at school. I'm not blaming the teachers, it's the way the government costs everything but values nothing.
Everything is temporary these days. There were never any supply teachers when I was at school. All these agencies that have sprung up supplying temporary nurses, teachers, doctors etc. Someone's making a killing from it though.

And then there's the fact that teachers daren't lift a finger to the kids for fear of getting a lawsuit against them for it.. :loopy:

I blame the stupid Yank culture of everyone suing everyone else for whatever they can get.. :rant:

Wasn't she a supply teacher though? Kids are notoriously wild for supply teachers and always have been. The C5 documentary a couple of months ago was exactly the same.

If they want an accurate picture they need to use a full time teacher who's prepared to 'whistle blow'.

Originally posted by alchresearch
Wasn't she a supply teacher though? Kids are notoriously wild for supply teachers and always have been. The C5 documentary a couple of months ago was exactly the same.

If they want an accurate picture they need to use a full time teacher who's prepared to 'whistle blow'.

But a fundamental question is why these schools have so many supply teachers? It must be partly because few full time teachers want to work there - or if they do they will soon want to leave. Once discipline in a school has broken down, its probably very difficult to restore it.

Bring back FULL school uniform

Bring back the cane

Make kids stay in school unless they have a note to go home for school dinners - stop them going to the local chippy and causing mayhem and litter on the estates.

The kids need and may actually welcome some discipline in their lives

Originally posted by sally_sheff
Bring back FULL school uniform

Bring back the cane

Make kids stay in school unless they have a note to go home for school dinners - stop them going to the local chippy and causing mayhem and litter on the estates.

The kids need and may actually welcome some discipline in their lives


..... and then post on here I'm 16 years old why won't anyone employ me .....

I was appalled by the schools covering up their operations. The inspectors are there to see how schools are coping and to create a false impression does no one any favours.

The kids are losing out to bad behaviour and bad management. I am dreading what our employment rates will be like over the next 30 years. Its the beginning of the end, a modern day Egypt going down the sink.

Originally posted by sally_sheff

The kids need and may actually welcome some discipline in their lives

Don't think there's any doubt about that.. But we can't totally blame the school system for the lack of discipline. It begins in the home at an early age and if it is neglected then the older a child gets the more difficult it is to rectify.

Too many parents choose appeasement rather than punishment when faced with bad behaviour; often because appeasement allows them to continue watching TV or reading/posting to an internet forum. :D , whereas administering punishment, and explaining the need for it just takes too much time.

Perhaps what we really need are schools for parents who kids are disruptive at school. And let's not forget diet in this equation, - there was a programme on TV recently that clearly demonstrated how sticking to a good diet could significantly change children's attitudes, both towards their peers and those in authority over them.

i totally agree - and what about instead of talking about teaching kids about gay sex and Islam (neither of which I have a problem with), but neither of which are going to give them qualifications or enrich their life, how about teaching them parenting skills, as many have hardly left school before they become parents, and perhaps there may be hope for the future generation

Kids need discipline in school, but the teachers dont have the power to do it

Originally posted by Ash1507
Kids need discipline in school, but the teachers dont have the power to do it

Blame that on the do-gooders, who are in fact doing the kids no good at all.

POWER TO THE TEACHERS!

I think most people who have had anything to do with schools , continually , these past 30 years , agree that , generally standards of behaviour and academic standards have both gone down.
People blame all sorts of things and the sad thing is , that they are probably all correct ! Society is interlinked , so lack of respect for teachers , the inability of teachers to take any disciplinary action that's effective , the American influence on all kinds of levels , Youf Culture , the increasing break up of family life , the lack of moral authority from the Church and nothing to replace it , the centralisation of authority and all that that entails-------league tables , bent statistics , the lack of pride in local achievements , the promotion of cardboard "heroes " ----all these are interlinked with education and /or schools.
I truly think that there may well be no solution , in the normal meaning of that word. I think it's gone too far now.
And I'm usually an optimist about life !

Originally posted by alchresearch
Wasn't she a supply teacher though? Kids are notoriously wild for supply teachers and always have been. The C5 documentary a couple of months ago was exactly the same.


That surely shouldn't make any difference should it?

If it is atrocious behaviour then neither supply nor full time teacher should have to put up with it.

I work in a school...

The main reason is that there are little or no consequences when they do anything wrong. It's either there's "no time" for a member of staff to deal with it and they are sent away. Either that or they get a few days off school (which they see as a reward more than anything) before they come straight back to continue.

The kids know that teachers have very little in the way of punishment, even the worst behaved kids don't get expelled now. Many schools have 'isolation' units where the kids are sent to work alone and in silence, but the downside is it gives kids a certain rep! Senior Management Teams are too involved in sourcing funding and/or shuffling statistics to actually deal with behavioural issues.

If kids can swear/smoke/drink at home what control do you expect teachers to have over them, in most cases the parents of the kids think their behaviour is: at best funny and at worst totally acceptable.

GIVE TEACHERS MORE POWER!!!!! MUHAHAHA

If there were easy solutions then I'm sure that schools would be making use of them!

Bear in mind that these programmes usually focus on supply teachers and these do tend to get the raw deal in schools. They don't know the kids and hence what buttons to press to get the best behaviour from them and they usually end up teaching topics they have no knowledge of. Perhaps this is why supply teachers get paid at such high rates? ;)

There are certain things which a school can do which will improve behaviour though. One is to have an active headteacher who does not spend all day in management meetings, one who will teach a few classes and is highly visible out and about around the school. Those kids who are disruptive need to be dealt with quickly, e.g. sending them out of the classroom. Teachers cannot simply 'expect' good behaviour, they need to begin with a tough attitude and only after those first lessons can they relax.

On these shows I often see little things being picked up on as problems by teachers. If a child is sneakily eating sweets then this kind of thing can be ignored, it is only when behaviour is disruptive that it becomes a problem, and to make a scene about a child quietly sneaking a toffee into their mouth is confrontational.

Other things such as mobiles disrupting the classrom could be solved by kids handing them into the office at the beginning of the day; parents could be required to sign liability forms if they insist their child carries a phone to school. If they do not like that then they might want to consider whether they agree with the school's rules and if not, then the school is not for them.

As I say, there are many many solutions, but the main point to remember is that it is only a small number of kids who are disruptive. In the main, kids are decent people, and it's all too easy to get carried away by tarring them all with the same brush!

Let's think this through a moment.

Yes, I understand the cause of the problem now.

Kid is allowed to act like a spoilt brat for 18 hours a day, then for the 6 hours he's/she's at school the staff are expected to 'reteach' them the basic rules of decency and respect (interspersed with a few minutes of curriculum), before they go home again for another 18 hours of delinquency.

Of course, they can always be excluded for a day or two, in which case they then get a continuous 48 hours of delinquency practice before returning to another 6 hours of 'retraining' (at the expense of the rest of the school system).

And if they are really lucky, they'll be patted on the head by their parents, told not to worry because all teachers are w@nkers, and get taken for a treat down town.

No, I didn't think that through properly did I...........

It must be the school's fault because after all. the teacher only has 30+ assorted kids to deal with but the parent has as many as two!!!!:rant:

Originally posted by Mathom
Perhaps this is why supply teachers get paid at such high rates? ;)



Small point but one that needs correcting, they don't get paid more because they are not paid for the holidays as regular teachers are. Overall, it works out pretty much the same.

Hello Lord C,
As you know, I lecture and research in Higher Ed. I could no more teach in a British state school [though qualified] than dance with D'Arcy Bussell. I would not last five minutes, and would be up before the beak on a charge of grevious bodily harm in no time. My sympathy is greatly extended to the poor teachers who have to endure the kind of abuse common in the classrooms of today. They are faced with a minority of highly manipulative, extremely aggressive 'kids' who are completely lacking in all social graces, basic human empathy and the will to please.

I tend to dislike unitary explanations for complex social problems. However, in this case, I lay the blame in the main upon the shoulders of that interfering housewife, Mrs Shirley Williams. More than any other person, variable etc, Williams contributed to the decline in the standard of British education in the sixties with her 'Comprehensive revolution'. We are left with huge, sprawling schools of 'mixed ability' children in which there is virtually no discipline and order. 'Shirley's Grandchildren', like horrible, un-caged Calibans are free to 'be themselves' [after three decades of emphasis upon 'free expression'], and there are no longer any workable 'checks' against their selfish, callow idiocy as 'corporal punishment' is now seen as the province of perverts.

My solution would be to use them as cannon-fodder in Northern Ireland, but Messrs Adams and McGuinness are too comfortable in their offices to start up against 'the Bratash' again in the near future. If only we could persuade these nasty 'kiddies' to embark upon a medieval 'Children's Crusade', where they disappear into slavery like the originals did. How very comforting that would be; the idea of 'Smeggy' who has terrorised staff and fellow pupils alike at Rat Street Comp, now a eunoch in some remote Omani sheikdom.

Mr. Timo , I think you've come up with the perfect solution and deserveat least a knighthood and a large pension from Lord Chaverly.
A Children's Crusade ! The very thing ! Although some of these , "children" are hulking great brutes of eighteen , no matter ,they would all be welcome.
It should be very easy to organise. Free baseball caps and continual , loud , accompanying rap music , free greasy X burgers and lots of sweets would encourage them to assemble at a given point of departure. They could be escorted [ gladly]
by their favourite social workers and counsellors. There would be the promise of endless violent American films and bloodthirsty computer games at the end of the journey.
I don't know if our dear friend Shirley Williams is still alive but , if so , she could lead the parade , like a sort of female Pied Piper.
However all this would be a mere ruse. As soon as the motley crew were out of the sight of , "concerned " adults , they would be all placed , by force , onto giant aircraft . These would take each and every one of them to a large deserted island and return empty.
Any child who had not been tempted to join this cavalcade would be given 5 housepoints , a new desk [plenty to spare ] and a large photograph of Mrs. Williams which they could burn in the playground. Problem solved.

Thankyou, Fareast, for your kind words. Actually, I have something far more precious than a knighthood and large pension from Lord Chaverly. I have the distinction of being both his confidant and favourite poster.

I am glad that you approve of my idea for a new, doomed 'Childrens' Crusade'. I have made contact with various Arab and Berber slave-dealers at markets such as Bou Jeloud and Tan Rasat [where the fair skins of Europeans are much prized], and they await a caravan of baseball-capped, gum-chewing oafs and oafesses carrying skateboards with great eagerness. We must paint a picture of the slave market towns as mini Tenerifes, where 'booze' is cheap, drugs and sex are abundant and 'young adults' can be 'really themselves'. Little do our inner-city yobs and yahoos realise that pain, humiliation and endless servitude await them...heh heh heh [echoes of evil laughter etc].

Timo

Not much time at the moment but must just mention this.
I know that in recent years we have not always seen eye to eye with the Arabic World -------but there is surely a limit as to what cruelties we might inflict upon them.
Do you really think it's humane or fair to dump the Youf of Britain and their Apologists , on any group of people. ? Imagine the look of horror on the faces of foreign folk , anywhere in the world , when they see a mass group of Beefburger-eating , rap-fans , dressed in a sea of baggy trousers , complete with face "jewellry" and crude tattoos. What would they make of the language ? In fact , what does anyone make of the language ?
To rub salt into the wound the people of the Arab World would have to read incomprehensible written tracts of gobblegook handed out to them by hordes of Social Workers or the Shierley Williams Fan Club concerning Children's Rights.
Have a heart , old chap ! There's a limit to what we should subject even our enemies to . Even Lord Chaverly's estate workers don't get this treatment.

Timo and Fareast,

Excellent suggestions from you both, as usual.

I wonder what your suggestions for dealing with the juvenile orcs I had the misfortune of encountering yesterday. I was on a 97 bus travelling to town yesterday afternoon when the bus suddenly filled with pupils from Abbeydale Grange school. I knew what a cacophony of foul mouthed gibberish I and other passengers were in for (in fact I wrote about this on another thread only last week). But by the time the bus had reached London Road, the perpetrators had got fed up with trying to provoke a reaction from other passengers by means of shouting four letter words, so instead started shouting Bin Laden's name and phrases such as 'We are going to bomb you', 'we are going to kill you all', sniggering and gibbering as they said it. The rest of the passengers kept their lips tightly shut, probably calculating that it was not worth a confrontation with these youths, who were about 14 years old and probably of Pakistani or Somali origin. But as we neared the town centre, two women got on. They listened to what was being chanted by these youths and turned round to face them . One of the women, a lady of about 30, then gave these morally cretinous and intellectually malformed products of Abbeydale Grange a magnificent verbal bollocking, the like of which was wonderful to behold in its zeal and articulacy (pointing out for example that they should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves amongst other things). She was still laying into them, cowing them in to silence, as I left the bus in the town centre.

Lady, I don't know who you are, but I salute you.

Lord Chaverly, can you give us a bit more information on this wonderful lady's 'bo****king'? Can you remember what kinds of things she said? I'd love a few good ideas for the next time I'm confronted with such stupidity.

How many times have you thought of something that would really make people look like the pillocks they are...........2 days after the event.......

Lord C,
Firstly, may I say how very distressed I am to hear that your 'reduced circumstances' entail your travelling upon public transport. It must be frightful for such a velvet-suited aesthete to encounter the blizzard of obscenity described. All part of our 'multi-cultural melting pot', I fear, in which we are all urged to work tirelessly for 'racial harmony' and 'an atmosphere of mutual tolerance'. Pardon me, dear heart, while I leave the room to be sick.

That is better. The lady concerned does indeed deserve praise. Many, burly adult males would have chosen the easier, quieter option in an age where packs of angry, unwanted young untermenschen regularly administer communal kickings to their elders and betters.

You request suggestions for dealing with such genetic refuse. I can offer three options. Firstly, may I direct you to my 'Most slappable face in entertainment' thread, which contains descriptions of condign revenge and refinements of cruelty that could be adapted to suit this situation. Secondly, may I recommend 'The Scourge of the Swastika' by Lord Russell of Liverpool [an account of Nazi war crimes], which contains some graphic and peculiar punishments, as does its companion volume, 'The Knights of Bushido'. Thirdly, as a favour I shall venture an original, and fitting, punishment of my own. My suggestion would be to simply allow the authorities in Somalia, Pakistan etc to deal with these foul-mouthed 'new Britons'. They would soon find out that 'youthful exuberance' is not tolerated nearly so much in the lands of their fathers. Pain is the usual reward for anti-social behaviour in such lands. Sadly, an 'Asbo' and a trip to Pontins is the usual reward in our own land.

I do believe we are heading towards a final solution------unfortunate phrase , I know , but needs must when the Devil drives and all that.
In this country we have millions of moon-faced , pasty , lazy , insolent , violent , thick , "children " , who we can't wait to get rid of.
Meanwhile , somewhere in deepest Afghanistan , Osama bin Laden is using terrorism to stamp out the evils of Western society. He's not interested in the Middle-aged or elderly . They'll be handing in their dinner plates soon , anyway. He is more interested in our , "Youf" , the future stock of this wonderful , Cool Brittania of ours.
Well , here is our offer to Mr. bin Laden :----you stop your terrorism and you can have our Youf for conversion ! Surely he'd jump at the chance of making , possibly , millions of converts.
Meanwhile our Youf could soon be conned into going to Afghanistan. Most of them wouldn't have a clue where it was or even what it was. We could tell them any old rubbish as long as it got them out there. I'm sure the vast majority of their parent[s] would co=operate in this trick , too.
Imagine Mr. bin Laden's shock as they descended upon him. None of the rosy- cheeked , polite little people he read about in his , "Children's Guide to the World ", in Saudi Arabia , when he was a lad ; the sort of children who were bright , polite and played draughts with their parents in the evenings.
In fact , Mr. bin Laden would be in for a shock beyond his worst nightmare. The caves of old Afghanistan would resound to endless Rap , there would be the constant pong of onions and beefburgers wafting on the night air and the gutteral gruntings of our Youf , day and night. bin Laden would very quickly pack up any plans for conquering the West------what a ghastly inheritence !-----and would retire , a sadder and wiser man. The Youf , after a few months in the mountains of Asia , would be glad to get back to a game of draughts and a cocoa , before bed at 9.p.m.
Worth a try , anyhow , wot ?

Some adults are bigots trying to tell children how they should behave.