Bomb Scare - Sheffield City 5th July. [Archive]

gemma86

05-07-2005, 18:32

I'm probably not going to say anything useful or interesting here, but here's how I've got on this afternoon.

I was on the X78 from Meadowhall and thought that the driver had just taken a wrong turn when he went from heading towards the Wicker onto Effingham Road! I had my headphones in so I don't know if the driver, or the guy who got on the bus and stood talking with him, said anything that the rest of the passengers heard. One girl was mouthing off about her being really late cos the driver had taken a wrong turn. Ha to her seeing as it wasn't the drivers fault! Anyway! I did think had gone the wrong way cos traffic was still going down towards the Wicker. It took about 25 mins to get down Effiingham Road, past the Hilton, round Park Square, along Sheaf Street and into the bus station.

Those cars that were going down the Wicker were turning up the new-ish bit of road that goes from there up to the Parkway.

As the bus got to the end of the road that the Hilton is on, you could see how the road had been taped off from where the bridge starts and and there were police and a small fire brigade van.

As we were going round Park Square, the girl next to me called someone and, as she was so close to me, I heard her say something about a bomb scare.

It didn't take long to get out of town, well, not along past the train station and up towards Granville Road way. It's taken me an extra 20/25 mins to get back from Meadowhall, which I don't think is entirely too bad considering it all.

I would like to give the person/people who have caused it all a kick up the backside though because I was hungry and wanted my tea!

Edit: I was wondering how people actually know it's a bomb scare? As far as I know, Hallam have only called it an 'incident' and I wouldn't imagine the police telling anyone what was happening as it would cause unnecessary panic.

Agent Orange

05-07-2005, 18:39

not long since got in after about an hour battling my way to park square roundabout from charter row overall journey time home was almost near hour and half. fantastic. was wondering why the road opposite bristol hotel was closed.

EyeSpy

05-07-2005, 19:37

Left work at 6.00pm as normal and my route home takes past all the areas mentioned. Roads closed at Wicket up to Waingate, Road behind Markets from Alexandra pub, Road from Irwin Mitchells along courts and down to Wick er again.

Mass amount of police presence and Paramedics and Ambulance Crew.

Just by Ladys Bridge at side of river, near the bus stop outside the old carpet shop was a bomb disposal unit vehicle, numerous individuals with protrective clothing on.

Hopefully, this will have been a hoax, shudder that we have to walk around knowing that some loons are leaving explosives behind.

In all, have to hold my hand up to SYP and say that although their was traffic chaos, the situation was dealt with rater quickly, cant have been easy dispersing people in town at rush hour.

hj dary

05-07-2005, 20:36

This is what the Beeb had to say about it..........

Bomb scare news item...click here... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/4654289.stm)

ttfn.

bostonaire

05-07-2005, 20:40

I LEFT HILLSBOROUGH AT 6PM AND GOT TO MOSBRO AT 7.40 PM!!!!!

Silverjet

05-07-2005, 20:43

I live at Millsands and didn't hear or see anything!!!!!

I've been sat here oblivious!!!!

I could have been blown up!

8balltiger

05-07-2005, 20:45

there was no bomb scare, the police were pulling red subaru's, thats what slowed the traffic

malton_s5

05-07-2005, 20:53

Originally posted by 8balltiger
there was no bomb scare, the police were pulling red subaru's, thats what slowed the traffic

Lol :hihi:

Fareast

05-07-2005, 22:33

Was it true that it was an empty bag that brought Sheffield City centre to a halt recently ?[Haven't had time to check the full story yet]
Think what chaos terrorists could cause with a few bags and a few well-chosen 'phone calls !
Do you think the authorities over-react ?
I know it's not exactly the same , but London had to carry on living and moving , somehow , during the war , when bombs were raining down every night. Also the I.R.A. bombings , in the '70's and eighties seemed to cause less panic than today's events. Are the authorities getting hysterical ? Are they bored and jump at any chance to create a big drama , with lots of flashing lights , sirens , closing roads off .......etc ?
As I said I know you can't compare the past exactly with the present but the contrast between how we reacted then , and how we react now , is too enormous not to be puzzling.

Phanerothyme

06-07-2005, 02:10

Originally posted by Fareast
Was it true that it was an empty bag that brought Sheffield City centre to a halt recently ?[Haven't had time to check the full story yet]
Think what chaos terrorists could cause with a few bags and a few well-chosen 'phone calls !
Do you think the authorities over-react ?
I know it's not exactly the same , but London had to carry on living and moving , somehow , during the war , when bombs were raining down every night. Also the I.R.A. bombings , in the '70's and eighties seemed to cause less panic than today's events. Are the authorities getting hysterical ? Are they bored and jump at any chance to create a big drama , with lots of flashing lights , sirens , closing roads off .......etc ?
As I said I know you can't compare the past exactly with the present but the contrast between how we reacted then , and how we react now , is too enormous not to be puzzling.

a carefully engineered climate of fear perhaps, in order to justify increased police spending on supressing demonstrations and dissent, whilst power is shifted to the executive, who with access to complete personal information records carefully and selectively continue to manipulate the public mind for 'our' collective 'benefit'? It couldn't happen here.

Fareast

06-07-2005, 03:19

Phanerothyme ,

I think you could have hit the nail on the head there ! When you think about it , it's how a lot of bureaucracies and powergroups expand ;--
Exaggerate the problem , demand more government funds to combat the alleged danger or problem , expand your , "empire" and then look round for more problems to justify ones existence.
The strange thing is , everyone [or nearly everyone !] is happy . The police get more power and can do their Clint Eastwood act , complete with helicopters and guns.[And , oh, the joy of ordering people about !] ; the Government can piously declare that they are only spending zillions of pounds of your money because it's absolutely necessary ; the sheep-like public get a double-edged buzz out of it --------they feel , "something is being done " , so they can sleep safely at nights .......plus.......they get a vicarious thrill out of seeing a bit of action.
Hardly anyone asks if all this is really necessary but I suppose if you spend all week in a dead-end job and all weekend putting shelves up and shopping , any excitement of any kind is worth paying for !

shefflad

06-07-2005, 06:45

Originally posted by Fareast
Was it true that it was an empty bag that brought Sheffield City centre to a halt recently ?[Haven't had time to check the full story yet]
Think what chaos terrorists could cause with a few bags and a few well-chosen 'phone calls !
Do you think the authorities over-react ?
I know it's not exactly the same , but London had to carry on living and moving , somehow , during the war , when bombs were raining down every night. Also the I.R.A. bombings , in the '70's and eighties seemed to cause less panic than today's events. Are the authorities getting hysterical ? Are they bored and jump at any chance to create a big drama , with lots of flashing lights , sirens , closing roads off .......etc ?
As I said I know you can't compare the past exactly with the present but the contrast between how we reacted then , and how we react now , is too enormous not to be puzzling.

you wouldnt have been saying that if it had gone bang with you next to it and police had done nothing

venger

06-07-2005, 06:58

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
a carefully engineered climate of fear perhaps, in order to justify increased police spending on supressing demonstrations and dissent, whilst power is shifted to the executive, who with access to complete personal information records carefully and selectively continue to manipulate the public mind for 'our' collective 'benefit'? It couldn't happen here.

:hihi: :hihi: :hihi:

"The bag turned out to be a empty."

Originally posted by shefflad
you wouldnt have been saying that if it had gone bang with you stud next to it and police had done nothing

Fareast, this guy is calling you a stud...a compliment if I ever saw one.

JoeP

06-07-2005, 07:10

Actually, having spent soem time in London in the 70s as a teenage tourist bomb threats did disrupt things. That's why they tend to come down 'hard' on hoaxers.

Also, times change.

We've just had one G8 conference, the next one is due to start, we've upset a lot of folks around the world. And a bag size bomb these days can be anything from a few pounds of Semtex through to a chemical weapon (remember the Tokyo underground), a radiological weapon made out of radioactive materials pinched from a hospital or a crude biological weapon.

I'd rather they took these things seriously - though if either of the latter types of bomb then a 100m cordon is more for effect than benefit.

Joe

Ousetunes

06-07-2005, 07:18

Whilst I don't want to undermine the potential seriousness of the situation, the incident perfectly illustrates one point:

Whenever there is a road closure in or around the city of Sheffield, there is, quite simply, nowhere else to send the traffic.

Instant gridlock courtesy of our councillors. They've shut off every side road, made them one way, no exit, no entry; they've narrowed streets to make access nigh on impossible and given the motorist no alternative but to sit in this man-made mess and to wait to be funnelled through the route they're going through.

If a bomb was to explode - God forbid - then the motorist is a sitting duck, hemmed into his vehicle with absolutely nowhere to go.

Sheffield City Council: Keeping Sheffield Moving.:loopy:

Fareast

06-07-2005, 07:19

Shefflad ,

No-one's saying that we haven't to be careful but the question was about over-reaction and why the authorities seem to come down heavy-handed on anything these days--------well , except , "everyday " , "domestic " violence and crime , which they seem to largely ignore .
However mention , "terrorism " or " bomb" , and there seems to be a sort of circus put into operation , no expense spared ! A city centre is brought to a grinding halt , thousands are inconvenienced-------for one empty bag. Wasn't there a quicker , less dramatic way of dealing with it ?
As I said , if you get this [over] reaction with one empty bag , it gives any serious terrorist the message how easy it is to panic the authorities [and maybe a lot of people too ] into total paralysis.
I truly admire a lot of what the police do and particularly what they've had to do in the past but this government seems to be encouraging them to act like a load of cowboys.
Venger says you called me a Stud. Well , if only !......I feel as if Id been gelded years ago ! Always enjoy life while you can ; believe me , it's no joke growing old , unless you're a Rod Stewart , of course.

owdlad

06-07-2005, 07:22

As usual Joe you make perfect sense, the authorities are in a no win situation with terrorism, but of course that is exactly why terrorism is so effective because it prays on our fears without actually having to do anything.

I spent some time in Birmingham around the time of the Mulberry Bush and Tavern in the Town bombings and no one ever complained about having to evacuate when there was a bomb warning, the IRA did cause death and destruction, but caused a lot more disruption afterwards with just a quick phone call.

The Police are doing the best they can in very difficult times, because for sure at some point Great Britain is going to be hit by one or other of these terrorist groups.

venger

06-07-2005, 07:28

"If you do not wish to be a victim of terrorism, stop participating in it" ~ Chomsky I think ?

pitsmoorlad

06-07-2005, 07:47

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fareast
[B]Shefflad ,
A city centre is brought to a grinding halt , thousands are inconvenienced-------for one empty bag. Wasn't there a quicker , less dramatic way of dealing with it ?
/QUOTE]

Of course there was a quicker way.
"Right lads and ladies, I want one volunteer to go over to that suspicious package, which may be full of Semtex and may be timed to go off at any moment. When the victim, er I mean volunteer, gets to the package I want him or her to kick it a few times, then pick it up, shake it , and have a look inside. If there isn't a bomb in there, then let us know. You'll need to shout though as we'll all be standing over there with our fingers in our ears. Any volunteers one pace forward and write down your next of kin."

Yep that should sort it out quicker.....

Ousetunes

06-07-2005, 07:49

Originally posted by pitsmoorlad
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fareast
[B]Shefflad ,
A city centre is brought to a grinding halt , thousands are inconvenienced-------for one empty bag. Wasn't there a quicker , less dramatic way of dealing with it ?
/QUOTE]

Of course there was a quicker way.
"Right lads and ladies, I want one volunteer to go over to that suspicious package, which may be full of Semtex and may be timed to go off at any moment. When the victim, er I mean volunteer, gets to the package I want him or her to kick it a few times, then pick it up, shake it , and have a look inside. If there isn't a bomb in there, then let us know. You'll need to shout though as we'll all be standing over there with our fingers in our ears. Any volunteers one pace forward and write down your next of kin."

Yep that should sort it out quicker.....

Well said. My thoughts exactly.

foo_fighter

06-07-2005, 07:53

Originally posted by Fareast
...Do you think the authorities over-react ?...
Isn't 20:20 hindsight a wonderful thing.

:rolleyes:

Macca

06-07-2005, 07:58

The bag turned out to be a empty.

Oh My God! Do they not have x-ray type machines that they can use?!

Morons!

foo_fighter

06-07-2005, 08:05

Originally posted by liencam
OMG! Do they not have x-ray type machines that they can use?!

Morons!
It's good to know we have such an expert on the forum, why don't you apply for a job in bomb disposal, then you could teach the "morons" a thing or two.

:shakes:

Lea1979

06-07-2005, 08:12

you know what - it took me two hours to travel about 3 miles last night (yes i should have walked but it was raining really hard and i didn't have an umberella!) but if the heavy traffic was caused due to a bomb scare and roads had to be shut off etc then thats fine. better safe than sorry, no ?

terrorism cannot and should not be taken lightly or tolerated in anyway. We have all lived under the threat and reality of the IRA, most of us i'm sure can remember bombs exploding in London, Manchester, Warrington etc. Bombs going off in city centres can and does happen anything suspicious should be treated seriously. THe police should be praised for their quick action.

Macca

06-07-2005, 08:36

Originally posted by foo_fighter
It's good to know we have such an expert on the forum, why don't you apply for a job in bomb disposal, then you could teach the "morons" a thing or two.

:shakes:

Becuase I'm too busy saving cats from trees and helping old ladies cross the road all day to be quite honest.

Have you never seen the little robots they use to investigate the scene of a bomb scare? How hard can it be to fit them with an X-ray scanner?

foo_fighter

06-07-2005, 08:43

Originally posted by liencam
...Have you never seen the little robots they use to investigate the scene of a bomb scare? How hard can it be to fit them with an X-ray scanner?
So now you're moving into EOD disposal device design then...

...hope it works out for you...

...tell us what the "morons" think about it, it might save some of their lives...

...kind of strange they didn't think about it before, what with all that irrelevant experience they have.

:help:

Macca

06-07-2005, 08:44

Originally posted by foo_fighter
So now you're moving into EOD disposal device design then...

...hope it works out for you...

...tell us what the "morons" think about it, it might save some of their lives...

...kind of strange they didn't think about it before, what with all that irrelevant experience they have.

:help:

Tell me why it's a bad idea, and I'll leave the thread.

foo_fighter

06-07-2005, 08:58

Originally posted by liencam
Tell me why it's a bad idea, and I'll leave the thread.
OK, 3 points I can think of, pick any one you like,

1) Have you seen an x-ray machine? Not exactly the size of a pocket camera are they? Do you think they have one that works on 3xAAA batteries?

2) What if the x-rays set off the device? Then it's no longer a "controlled" explosion. How much additional damage do you think is "acceptable"?

3) Even if it would work, it would still be the EOD team that had to do the investigation (use this device), so you'd still have to close off the area, and wait for them to get to the site of the suspect package before declaring the package "empty". So what happened yesterday would not have been any different.

I'm sure the brave "morons" who actually do this sort of dangerous work may well be able to come up with even more reasons, why don't you ask one the next time you see them, but I really would advise leaving the "moron" bit out of the conversation.

Fareast

06-07-2005, 09:12

Does it mean then , that every time someone puts an empty bag somewhere and then 'phones up with a terrorist threat , the whole of a large city centre becomes gridlocked.?
Only a moron would say we should ignore terrorists threats but we're not talking about that -----we are talking about the [over] reaction to the threat[s]. In the Sheffield case , what I was asking was could the whole operation have been more localised ? Was there any need for ALL the activity that apparently took place ?
I must admit that I'm miles from being a technical expert but I have seen on television where the bomb disposal teams have carried out controlled explosions in N.Ireland .Perhaps someone more au fait with the technicalities could tell us more ?
As someone else pointed out , the result of closing the streets around the area in the Sheffield case , meant that many motorists were , 'sitting ducks" had there been a series of explosions , as there sometimes is in these cases.In other words was it not possible to react to the threat without causing such disruption and possible secondary danger ?
Joe , you're quite right , the bombings in London and Birmingham in the 70's did cause disruption. However , the I.R.A had conducted a sustained bombing campaign which had killed many people. They had a code word so the police knew that a particular threat was deadly serious. But , what have we got in this case ? Where are the constant terrorists bombings that are going off every other week and killing hundreds of people ? We are , at the moment reacting to a POSSIBLE threat of bombings-----nothing concrete from the terrorists seems to have happened in the U.K And , if it did , like it has done in Spain or Turkey , have identity cards or the like stopped terrorist attacks ? If terrorist attacks happen , most authorities have never had the time or opportunity to take precautions. As Owdlad said in a way , we can't , "win" against the terrorist , if they're willing to die for their cause -------but we can somewhat negate their threats by not over-reacting.

Macca

06-07-2005, 09:21

Originally posted by foo_fighter
OK, 3 points I can think of, pick any one you like,

1) Have you seen an x-ray machine? Not exactly the size of a pocket camera are they? Do you think they have one that works on 3xAAA batteries?

2) What if the x-rays set off the device? Then it's no longer a "controlled" explosion. How much additional damage do you think is "acceptable"?

3) Even if it would work, it would still be the EOD team that had to do the investigation (use this device), so you'd still have to close off the area, and wait for them to get to the site of the suspect package before declaring the package "empty". So what happened yesterday would not have been any different.

I'm sure the brave "morons" who actually do this sort of dangerous work may well be able to come up with even more reasons, why don't you ask one the next time you see them, but I really would advise leaving the "moron" bit out of the conversation.

1) I'm sure hospital X-ray machines aren't the limit of our technology in this area. Airport x-ray machines, for example, are a lot smaller. As are metal detectors (another possible alternative) etc. Plus the robots they use aren't exactly AIBOs.

2) do X-rays cause bombs to detonate, or are you postualting?

3) Why? With a strong enough detector, there is no reason that the same proximity would have to be used to detect the contents of the bag.

If I knew Bomb disposal officer I would ask them.

Perhaps the word 'morons' was a bit strong (so was your reaction IMO), but I was only suggesting what could be a quicker way of appraising the severity of the situation.

Mathom

06-07-2005, 09:23

Traffic disruption's a fairly small price to pay if there is a bomb scare, far cheaper in fact than having to mop up after an explosion, and then compensate victoms and their families who would seek recompense for not having been kept away.

It wouldn't be too much to hope that the bomb experts knew what size of cordon they would need and so any motorists ought to have been safe. I say hope...:confused:

As to why such things didn't cause as much disruption in the 70's, it's simply that there was a lot less traffic on the roads then! I don't know the stats but I'd hazard a guess at there being at least twice as much traffic now.

pitsmoorlad

06-07-2005, 09:25

I'm not an expert in this field either but I imagine that all Police Forces work to government issued guidlines which will probably have as rule 1 that the area's cleared of all public presence. Then no doubt the experts assess the situation to try to verify the position, but they will always err on the side of caution. Yes the IRA used codewords to let people know they were genuine. That idea went out of the window when Al Quaeda never phoned the twin towers. Terrorists don't care who they blow up and the next plastic bag may not be empty
So people were late getting home, getting through town and missed their tea. SO WHAT. Would you rather that or have a row of dead bodies waiting to be identified. At least we're all in one piece to talk about this. Don't forget we have to get these things right every time, the terrorists only have to get it right once and there's carnage.

foo_fighter

06-07-2005, 09:35

Originally posted by Fareast
Does it mean then...
Fareast, since you don't actually live (or work) in Sheffield I'm sure it's easy to say the authorities over-reacted...

...but if you (or your loved ones) had been in "potential" danger, would you still be as flippant about the safety measures undertaken.

It's very easy now we know there was no danger to criticise, but what if that had been an explosive device?

:confused:

Originally posted by liencam
1) I'm sure hospital X-ray machines aren't the limit of our technology in this area. Airport x-ray machines, for example, are a lot smaller. As are metal detectors etc. Plus the robots they use aren't exactly AIBOs.

2) do X-rays set off bombs or are you postualting?

3) Why? Witha strong enough detector, there is no reason that the same proximity would have to be used to detect the contents of the back.

1) Even airport detectors are big, run on mains, and wouldn’t fit on an EOD robot.

2) Yes they could, are you willing to stand next to one postulating it wouldn’t?

3) You’ve missed the point, the specialist equipment would still be used by an EOD team, it would still be brought by them, and the area would still have been closed for just as long until they had finished and declared the area safe.

Originally posted by liencam
Perhaps the word morons was a bit storng (so was your reaction IMO), but I was only suggesting what could be a quicker way of appraising the severity of the situation.
My response to you was in no way as over the top as you calling the experts in this dangerous field "morons", go back and read it if you wish...

...and as to the "quicker" way of appraising the situation, what a pity none of the experts from around the world (and we are world leaders in this field due to the IRA campaigns) has your foresight on this matter, what a better place the world (or at least Sheffield) would be.

:rolleyes:

Macca

06-07-2005, 09:48

Originally posted by foo_fighter
Fareast, since you don't actually live (or work) in Sheffield I'm sure it's easy to say the authorities over-reacted...

...but if you (or your loved ones) had been in "potential" danger, would you still be as flippant about the safety measures undertaken.

It's very easy now we know there was no danger to criticise, but what if that had been an explosive device?

:confused:

1) Even airport detectors are big, run on mains, and wouldn’t fit on an EOD robot.

2) Yes they could, are you willing to stand next to one postulating it wouldn’t?

3) You’ve missed the point, the specialist equipment would still be used by an EOD team, it would still be brought by them, and the area would still have been closed for just as long until they had finished and declared the area safe.

My response to you was in no way as over the top as you calling the experts in this dangerous field "morons", go back and read it if you wish...

...and as to the "quicker" way of appraising the situation, what a pity none of the experts from around the world (and we are world leaders in this field due to the IRA campaigns) has your foresight on this matter, what a better place the world (or at least Sheffield) would be.

:rolleyes:

Oh, go and get a coffee, I'm out of here.

Cyclone

06-07-2005, 09:51

how would x-ray work anyway, it doesn't show up plastique, although i might show up a few wires and a clock. But then that could be your earphones and your clock that you left in your bag whilst you nipped into the courts.

Xray's could also quite easily induce a current in the detonation device, thus triggering the bomb.

Metal detectors could do the same, so they're out (and a bomb could be made without metal anyway).

Ultrasound is safer, and I have a vague suspicion that it's already used.

chin_wag

06-07-2005, 09:59

I lived in London during the 80's and 90's and believe me there was massive disruption due to bomb scares.

Every day tube stations were evacuated and lines closed because of suspect packages. My own journey was disrupted at least once a week because of this.

Then there was the 'ring of steel' which involved armed police at checkpoints in and out of the city. As you can imagine getting through these took a long time and caused long queues.

Even when the IRA threat eased tube stations were regularly evacuated.

Although it was a pain I would much rather spend an extra hour getting home than risk getting blown up.

This isn't something that happens often in Sheffield but on the eve of the G8 it was obviously taken seriously. I think we should just thank our lucky stars that it isn't a regular occurance.

foo_fighter

06-07-2005, 10:04

Originally posted by liencam
Tell me why it's a bad idea, and I'll leave the thread.
Originally posted by Cyclone
...Xray's could also quite easily induce a current in the detonation device, thus triggering the bomb...
Good job the "morons" didn't try that then...

...mind you, our resident expert says he's already gone.

:clap:

lauramottram

06-07-2005, 12:22

Originally posted by Ousetunes
Whilst I don't want to undermine the potential seriousness of the situation, the incident perfectly illustrates one point:

Whenever there is a road closure in or around the city of Sheffield, there is, quite simply, nowhere else to send the traffic.

Instant gridlock courtesy of our councillors. They've shut off every side road, made them one way, no exit, no entry; they've narrowed streets to make access nigh on impossible and given the motorist no alternative but to sit in this man-made mess and to wait to be funnelled through the route they're going through.

If a bomb was to explode - God forbid - then the motorist is a sitting duck, hemmed into his vehicle with absolutely nowhere to go.

Sheffield City Council: Keeping Sheffield Moving.:loopy:

ur totally right!

last night i queued up parkway then over towards penistone road, and with my a-z was looking for any other way to go, and like you say there was no other way to go as the side streets were all shut off/deadends/oneways.

1Man&hisBMW

06-07-2005, 12:56

Let is be known, dont leave your emply Netto bags around the city centre, especially outside govt buildings. the contents of such bags are known to be ' unsafe ' ... ;)

Foxxx

06-07-2005, 13:05

Can anyone explain to me why yorkshire terrier buses were running along waingate but First wasn't? We were told that all transport had been stopped and the roads shut down, but YT buses kept appearing! Did the road block only allow YT buses and not first through ir something? It was very strange. This was at about 5.15 last night. When I say, we were told, what I mean was, after a few of us stood at the bus stops like idiots for a while we wondered where all the First buses were, so had to find a man in a yellow coat and ask. He advised we walk up to high street as no buses were running. Why don't the police tell you that bus stops are closed, instead of leaving you stood there like idiots!!! Walked up to high street and got my bus, which then took nearly half an hour to get to the next stop!

Saxon

06-07-2005, 13:09

I think the Police have probably got more on their minds at that point than telling people buses aren't running.

But I do agree someone should have told you - I would suggest maybe someone from the PTE should have been on hand

Fareast

06-07-2005, 13:43

Well , I've never said that normal safety precautions shouldn't be taken ; I think most people with half a brain would agree on that. However , can anyone remember an occasion when a major city was gridlocked for hours , apparently , in the case of an empty bag and at a time when terrorist attacks in the U.K. [ and certainly in Sheffield ] were non-existent ?
People have very short memories . The number of people killed by terrorists in the world and in the U.K has fallen dramatically in the past decade------with the exception of the 9/11 attack. The I.R.A. , the Beider -Meinhof group , the PKK in Turkey have all virtually curtailed their activities . The Basque terrorists , the Red Brigade ? When did they last blow up anything in Europe or the U.K. ?
If we let the mere THREAT of terrorist activity paralyse our cities we are well on the way to giving in to them. Incidentally , I've now read that the police sealed off a 100m. area round the suspected bomb and it was blown up by a controlled device ----------so why was the whole of the city centre in a complete mess and why were motorists put in potential danger if it was a serious threat ?
Also , in my view , the government are , "cashing in " on all this. The more drama , the more scare that's created , the easier it is to bring in identity cards , suspend habeus corpus and ignore trial by jury , where it deems fit to do so .

chin_wag

06-07-2005, 14:12

This does happen elsewhere and the same precautions are taken. It happens so often in London that people have got used to it. I know I did. It just hasn't happened in Sheffield before and I for one am pleased to now be living where such occurances are rare.

This is just one example

Bomb Scare Sparks Town-centre Chaos

A MISLAID pair of shoes sparked a mid-afternoon bomb scare, causing pandemonium in Wood Green.

The area was thrown into disarray after a mystery parcel was spotted by security staff at the High Road branch of Natwest Bank at around 3pm on Tuesday.

Within minutes of an emergency telephone call, police officers cordoned off the immediate and surrounding area ? throwing the busy shopping locality into chaos.

A bomb disposal team was deployed and the area was given the all clear at 5pm after the suspect package was found to be a parcel containing a pair of shoes.

He added: 'We advise people to take care of personal property and make sure they take it away with them.'

Hundreds of afternoon shoppers were sent packing as police carried out a mass evacuation of the area.

Thousands of motorists and public transport passengers were also frustrated as Wood Green effectively became a no-go area.

Wood Green Underground station was closed for nearly two hours on police advice.

Tube trains were ordered to pass straight through the station between 3.24pm until normal service resumed at 5.04pm.

Motorists had their journey times increased as the Wood Green area reached gridlock.

Even an hour after the all clear had been given, commuters had their journeys extended in some cases by more than an hour.

By 6pm, traffic jams had spread to Hornsey, Crouch End and Muswell Hill.

9:30am Friday 19th May 2000

Fareast

06-07-2005, 14:40

Can't argue with that Chin Wag,

However , it doesn't alter the debate about whether the Sheffield Police over-reacted ?
Perhaps all over the country , police forces have been instructed by someone to react in a like manner. It doesn't make it wrong or right .
In fact it could strengthen the argument that this government delights in scares as it makls it far easier for them to pass draconian laws , of all kinds---------this is all despite the fact that actual terrorist activity has fallen during the last decade.

foo_fighter

06-07-2005, 14:58

Originally posted by Fareast
...However , it doesn't alter the debate about whether the Sheffield Police over-reacted ?...
I've said it before, and will ask again...

...how do you know, you weren't even here.

:confused:

pitsmoorlad

06-07-2005, 14:59

Originally posted by Fareast

However , it doesn't alter the debate about whether the Sheffield Police over-reacted ?
decade.
So how would you have had them react?
It can be easy to be critical in cases like this after the event. You're the Chief Constable, what would you have done?

Cyclone

06-07-2005, 15:20

I suppose you have to decide in advance whether you will treat every abandoned bag as a bomb until proven otherwise, or whether you will exercise some, but not such extreme caution until you have some reason to beleive that it actually is a bomb.

What is the real risk of it being a bomb, would a terrorist be so stupid as to leave a bomb in a visible place? Or would they hide the bomb somewhere? If it is a bomb, what is it's likely level of sophistication? Despite die hard and lethal weapon films, the chances are that most terrorist bombs are relatively crude and do not have multiple fail safes and tampering detection circuits.
Also, given the size of the bag you can estimate the maximum possible blast, and thus you don't need to cordon off 100m.
And presumably a sniffer dog could have rapidly given a nearly 100% indication of whether it contained any explosives...

I'm not suggesting that a poor PC gets the job of unzipping it and taking a look, but shutting down the city centre everytime someone forgets a bag seems a bit out of proportion to the real risks involved.

foo_fighter

06-07-2005, 15:30

Originally posted by Cyclone
...Also, given the size of the bag you can estimate the maximum possible blast, and thus you don't need to cordon off 100m....
Unless of course it might contain a chemical, biological, or radiological substance, which could then travel "on the wind" after an explosion...

...but of course, terrorists would never put such a substance in a bomb would they...

:suspect:

Fareast

06-07-2005, 15:33

Foo fighter ,

According to your logic , anyone who offers an opinion on S.F. , on any subject presumably , has to actually BE there !!
Can we offer our opinions on Edinburgh even if we didn't actually go there ?

Seems utterly ridiculous to me but maybe you meant something else ?
Like the vast majority of people on the forum , I would guess , I form my opinions from a number of sources , if possible --------reading what people have said who WERE actually there , the BBC report and ones previous knowledge of such events.
Unless the police , the BBC and a lot of S.F. posters were making it all up for a joke , it appears that Sheffield City centre was thrown into chaos after an empty bag was found . The bag was made harmless by means of a controlled explosion and turned out to be actually empty.
I think Cyclone's observations are worth taking in and seem to be pointing to the fact that a much lower-key approach would have been more appropriate.
Do you think I would have seen any more , incidentally , if I had been in the area ?

Cyclone

06-07-2005, 15:34

Originally posted by foo_fighter
Unless of course it might contain a chemical, biological, or radiological substance, which could then travel "on the wind" after an explosion...

...but of course, terrorists would never put such a substance in a bomb would they...

:suspect:

it might contain many things, the most likely thing being someones gym kit.

you have to work on the balance of probability. Anyone smart enough to build a bomb with a nb or c component is not going to leave it out in plain view just so that the bomb squad get some practice. They could easily hide it away, in a bush, up a tree, in a bin or below a manhole cover.
If you treat every incident as the worst possible threat then you are guaranteed to be safe. But you are also guaranteed to be wasting a lot of everyones time, an awful lot.

Fareast

06-07-2005, 15:44

Foo Fighter,

My knowledge of science and explosives is very limited , to say the least , but one thing puzzles me.

If the police had an inkling that the bag contained chemicals that could , "blow about " and cause untold damage elsewhere , why did they explode the bag before they knew what was in it ?

I think someone with a bit of scientific knowledge should put us right on this question.

chin_wag

06-07-2005, 15:53

I understand why people feel there was an over reaction but I really can't see any alternative if the police feel lives may be at risk. I certainly don't think the govt has instructed the police to act like this in order to scare us.

If they don't cordon off the area they put lives as risk and if they do they make people an hour late home from work. I know which way I'd go if I was making the decisions.

Explosives sniffer dogs are a good idea but they are not very common and what do you do while you wait for the dog to arrive?

You're right that Sheffield is not high on the list of possible terrorist targets which is no doubt why this doesn't happen more often but on the eve of the G8 summit it must have been deemed a serious enough risk by the bomb squad to take the action they did.

Greenback

06-07-2005, 16:01

Originally posted by Fareast
Foo Fighter,

My knowledge of science and explosives is very limited , to say the least , but one thing puzzles me.

If the police had an inkling that the bag contained chemicals that could , "blow about " and cause untold damage elsewhere , why did they explode the bag before they knew what was in it ?

I think someone with a bit of scientific knowledge should put us right on this question.

Chemical/biological weapons wouldn't do much damage in an open environment (the agents would disperse too widely). They would only be effective in a confined area.

depoix

06-07-2005, 16:05

if,s but,s and maybe,s but were all still here thanks to the police and eod lads, anybody said thank you to them by the way ?

in retrospect perhaps a few diversion signs further out would have given people more time to detour the town centre,who knows ?

i would have thought that this would have occured whilst the g8 mob was here the other week instead of a normal week day,but i would rather miss my tea for an hour than my family for ever, should this incident have gone the other way.

and it does go to show that the authorities do have some kind of game plan for such things as this, and all in a days work for the eod lads, any one else fancy the job ?

spyro2000

06-07-2005, 16:09

Originally posted by depoix
if,s but,s and maybe,s but were all still here thanks to the police and eod lads, anybody said thank you to them by the way ?

No, we are all here because it wasnt even a bomb anyway.

foo_fighter

06-07-2005, 17:18

Originally posted by spyro2000
No, we are all here because it wasnt even a bomb anyway.
This time.

As for some of the comments by other people, especially that biological agents would be spread too thinly to be any danger...

...erm, yeh, OK.

:rolleyes:

PS Fareast, you haven't answered my original point regarding not being in Sheffield, you think it was an over-reaction, but you weren't in any (potential) danger, it's a different call under those circumstances.

Cyclone

07-07-2005, 09:28

Originally posted by Greenback
Chemical/biological weapons wouldn't do much damage in an open environment (the agents would disperse too widely). They would only be effective in a confined area.

the whole point would be to spread them widely via the explosion in the bag.
a controlled explosion would have a similar effect, although not such a wide dispersal.

chin_wag

07-07-2005, 09:35

Today's 'incidents' in London show why these things have to be taken seriously. I lived in Central London and felt the shockwave from the Bank bomb go right through me and shake the wall behind me. It was bloody terrifying and I NEVER object to having to wait because of bomb scares. The alternative doesn't bear thinking about.

Those poor, poor souls killed and injured in London today :-((

Cyclone

07-07-2005, 09:39

Originally posted by chin_wag
Today's 'incidents' in London show why these things have to be taken seriously. I lived in Central London and felt the shockwave from the Bank bomb go right through me and shake the wall behind me. It was bloody terrifying and I NEVER object to having to wait because of bomb scares. The alternative doesn't bear thinking about.

Those poor, poor souls killed and injured in London today :-((

there is a clear difference though, if these are terrorist bombs today.
They weren't left in plain view for the police to blow up, as you would expect.

chin_wag

07-07-2005, 09:51

So what do you suggest when the police are wary of a package?

The bomb squad are the experts and it's for them not us to assess the risk. This happens all the time in London and people accept that their safety comes first.

It's very easy to glib after the fact. Hindsights always twenty twenty.

savbaby

07-07-2005, 10:38

originally posted by fareast
...However , it doesn't alter the debate about whether the Sheffield Police over-reacted ?...

do you still think after todays london attacks the police over reacted?

Carl_Malibu

07-07-2005, 10:45

cyclone you CANT argue your way out of that im afraid.

If the police hadnt have cordoned off the area, and there had been major explosions, the police would have been liable for everything that was damaged.

Bitch and moan all you want about being late or whatever, but what would you be saying if there was a bomb there and, lets say, someone you loved was killed, eh?

Cyclone

07-07-2005, 11:00

Originally posted by Carl_Malibu
cyclone you CANT argue your way out of that im afraid.

If the police hadnt have cordoned off the area, and there had been major explosions, the police would have been liable for everything that was damaged.

Bitch and moan all you want about being late or whatever, but what would you be saying if there was a bomb there and, lets say, someone you loved was killed, eh?

can't argue my way out of what?

all I said was that the response shouldn't be fuelled by paranoia and should be set at a level consistent with the perceived level of threat.

scottf

07-07-2005, 11:01

Originally posted by Cyclone
They weren't left in plain view for the police to blow up, as you would expect.

How do you know???

If it was a packed bus then you can bet your bottom dollar it was left in a rucksack or something on the bus buy the terrorist?

Unless there going to break into the bus depot and attach it to the bus there instead- far far too risky!!!

RazorSHarp

07-07-2005, 11:08

Originally posted by scottf
How do you know???

Unless there going to break into the bus depot and attach it to the bus there instead- far far too risky!!!

Scottf.....you not heard of suicide attacks?

scottf

07-07-2005, 11:10

Originally posted by RazorSHarp
Scottf.....you not heard of suicide attacks?

Yeah mate- its just been confirmed that the bus was a suicide attack actually (well someone said that on the other thread in general)

Cyclone

07-07-2005, 11:21

Originally posted by scottf
How do you know???

If it was a packed bus then you can bet your bottom dollar it was left in a rucksack or something on the bus buy the terrorist?

Unless there going to break into the bus depot and attach it to the bus there instead- far far too risky!!!

well the police didn't blow them up, so they weren't.

I'm not saying that they weren't left in view for a minute or two, just not for hours, otherwise these tragedies would have been averted.

Fareast

07-07-2005, 12:27

savbaby ,

Well , if the Sheffield bomb was a sort of dress-rehearsal for the London bombs , or if they were in any way connected , the Sheffield reaction certainly didn't deter London bombers , did it ?
In fact , I would think , terrorists judge their success on how much panic , fear and terror they cause. I don't suppose they care exactly how many people they kill.
All the serious bombings that have occured in the U.K. over the years -------London , Manchester , Birmingham , Brighton ....and so on , have been caused either by concealed bombs ........under pub seats , hidden in hotels.....etc.....
or left in cars. The first thing we usually know about a bomb is after it's gone off.
Again ....no-one has ever suggested that precautions don't have to be taken when ANYTHING suspicious is seen------it always has been the case------the question was , given the nature of the , "bomb" in Sheffield , did they over react. Was there a more low-key approach available ?
It doesn't seem an unreasonable query to me .

chin_wag

07-07-2005, 12:58

Fareast

Sure you're entitled to ask the question but the answer is no, the authorities in Sheffield did not over react.

They did not know the nature of the 'bomb' in Sheffield which is why they treated it as a bomb until they knew differently.

For heaven's sake the only consequence of their action was that people were late home from work! What is so dreadful about that.

What do you suggest they do when they find a suspect package?

Do you not think that there is a reason such things are taken seriously? You may not think their reason's are good enough but as they know what they're doing and you don't I'd rather put my trust in them.

I am no fan of Tony Blair and New Labour but this is not the X Files and not everything is some vast government conspiracy.

I can only conclude that you and your loved ones have been lucky enough to never have been caught up in anything like todays tragedy in London.

Cyclone

07-07-2005, 13:05

treating everything with such an extreme level of paranoia means that anyone can cause massive disruption across sheffield by leaving a cheap rucksak in plain view in a public place.
next teenage craze maybe, happy controlled explosion. they can hang around and film it on their mobile.

scottf

07-07-2005, 13:11

Better to be safe than sorry in my book to be honest!!!

chin_wag

07-07-2005, 13:13

Cyclone

Suspect packages in London have been treated in this way for the past twenty years. It hasn't yet started a teenage craze and Londoners are certainly not paranoid. They just get on with their lives and accept a certain amount of disruption to their daily journeys. Why is that so difficult to accept?

Cyclone

07-07-2005, 13:23

Originally posted by chin_wag
Cyclone

Suspect packages in London have been treated in this way for the past twenty years. It hasn't yet started a teenage craze and Londoners are certainly not paranoid. They just get on with their lives and accept a certain amount of disruption to their daily journeys. Why is that so difficult to accept?

i didn't realise that i was having trouble accepting anything. Is it so hard for you to accept that I don't agree with you?

chin_wag

07-07-2005, 13:40

Fair enough you don't agree with me. I do try not to sound confrontational. Obviously I didn't try hard enough. :(

It still remains that sensible precautions do not equate to an extreme level of paranoia however.

Fareast

07-07-2005, 13:52

Chin wag

Well , no I have been fortunate enough not to have come into contact with any bombs. However , I did live through the '60's and '70's as an adult , , when , I think about 70 people were killed in one blast alone , in Birmingham , in a pub [or was it two pubs at the same time ?]. During that era bombs seemed to have being going off somewhere or other every other week.
However as I said previously , all the , "killer" bombs were of a a very different nature , in lots of ways than the Sheffield one. I think they were all concealed and people had either no warning or very little warning. Then there was all the bombing in that other benighted part of the U.K.------Northern Ireland. So , you don't need to tell me how horrible bombs are or how cowardly and brutal terrorists are.
However , once again , as Cyclone has yet again pointed out , the Sheffield case seems to show that if terrorists were so inclined they could bring every city in Britain to a grinding halt , with very little cost and no danger to themselves. Maybe we're lucky they haven't done that yet.How would you react if you couldn't move arouind on a regular basis because terrorists or their camp-followers , kept disrupting things in such an easy manner.
We must keep a sense of perspective and the only way to spit at the terrorists and lower THEIR morale is to show we can get on with our lives , despite their atrocities. Rest assured , we won't find it easy to stamp terrorism out. If people are willing to die for their cause , there's not too much one can do. The Israelis have been trying for about 50years.

chin_wag

07-07-2005, 14:17

I do understand what you're saying Fareast. The disruption caused is an end in itself. After all terrorism is more about causing fear in the many than death in the few.

<How would you react if you couldn't move arouind on a regular basis because terrorists or their camp-followers , kept disrupting things in such an easy manner.>

For many years I lived in London where my daily journeys to and from work by tube WERE regularly disrupted by suspect packages and apart from sighing loudly I didn't react at all. I wasn't frightened or angry and it didn't put me off travelling by tube the next day. People in London just get on with it and incorporate such delays into their daily lives.

I don't know maybe I lived with it for so long that I find it hard to see any other way of doing it.

How would you deal with the situation btw? I know I'd err on the side of caution but then I'm a chicken

This page is quite interesting.

Guardian - How the army carry out controlled explosions (http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/thisweek/story/0,12977,1043821,00.html)

Perhaps Sheffield doesn't have such equipment which may have increased disruption time?

redrobbo

07-07-2005, 14:37

Originally posted by Fareast
Can't argue with that Chin Wag,

However , it doesn't alter the debate about whether the Sheffield Police over-reacted ?
Perhaps all over the country , police forces have been instructed by someone to react in a like manner. It doesn't make it wrong or right .
In fact it could strengthen the argument that this government delights in scares as it makls it far easier for them to pass draconian laws , of all kinds---------this is all despite the fact that actual terrorist activity has fallen during the last decade.

In the light of the terrorist bombs in London today, is there anyone still thinking that the police overeacted in Sheffield?

Does anyone seriously believe that police forces across the country "have been instructed by someone to react in a like manner"? (And who do you think this "someone" is Fareast?)

Does anyone seriously believe for a moment that "this government delights in scares"?

Terrorist activity may have "fallen during the last decade". Sadly, todays events show that we must remain ever vigilant.

BoroughGal

07-07-2005, 15:18

And the top and bottom of the matter is, that it doesn't make any difference WHO on HERE thinks that the police have over-reacted, they dealt with the incident in the way that is directed by government guidelines.

And they will continue to do so.

Fareast

07-07-2005, 15:44

Well, as far as I know , the Home Office does set out , "guidelines" and police forces are all under pressure to act in certain ways as they have league tables and have to apply for resources from the Central government and so on. There's an Inspector of Constablary whose job it is to make sure that no police force gets too far out of line.
I thought everyone knew that police forces are not as independent as they once were ? Maybe , 'Control" was too strong a word to use but it's control except in name only.
How many more times must I keep saying that I KNOW that we must be vigilant. I've probably lived through more times of social tension than most people on S.F. but it still doesn't answer the question of over-reaction in the face of terrorism.
Do you seriously think that the police never over-react under the threat of terrorism , the perceived threat -----or actual terrorism ?
They very quickly arrested the wrong people after the various I.R.A bombings and those people spent up to 15 years in prison , whilst the real terrorists were free to carry on bombing to their heart's content . This is what happens when you get over-reaction and government pressure-------Do something------arrest somebody-------arrest anybody-------make a show .
All that activity never stopped one terrorist bomb, in fact it let the real bombers carry on regardless and the events in Sheffield did nothing at all to prevent , or , as far as we know , influence the London bombings. All some people are asking , is could the Sheffield incident have been handled without so much disruption ? A lot of people seem to get hot under the collar , just thinking about it.

Strix

07-07-2005, 17:22

Originally posted by Fareast
They very quickly arrested the wrong people after the various I.R.A bombings and those people spent up to 15 years in prison , whilst the real terrorists were free to carry on bombing to their heart's content . This is what happens when you get over-reaction and government pressure-------Do something------arrest somebody-------arrest anybody-------make a show .
Actually, the intelligence services knew who the IRA units were, they just didn't know which unit was responsible for which episode. As mentioned earlier, there were bombings and threats every other week, so the 'removal' of the IRA units was effective in slowing down the rate of 'incidents'.

It sickens me to see the supposed 'innocent' re-arrested for further crimes. Innocent? Really?

And why are we all assuming that we have absolute knowledge about what the police and government know/plan?
There is security knowledge that isn't shared with the media and general public for damned obvious reasons.

I think they're all doing a great job, and it would be refreshing to hear Sheffield stop whingeing about the people who are looking after their best interests ;)

Cyclone

07-07-2005, 17:51

I suppose the ultimate evidence is in whether the paranoia and destruction of innocent luggage ever actually achieves anything.

If 1 in 10 alerts is genuine, ie 9 rucksacks with wet swimming trunks in destroyed for every 1 bomb, then most people would say it is.
When it's 1 in 100 is it?
When it's 1 in 1000, or 1 in 1 Million, is it still worth it?

Given that terrorists probably aren't complete idiots, they realise that leaving a bag in the middle of the street will not achieve the objective of blowing up, it will be destroyed in a controlled way, so why would they do it???

It would be interesting to see how many things were destroyed in controlled explosions that then were found to contain nothing dangerous.

Fareast

07-07-2005, 22:41

Strix ,

Well , I take your point that the public cannot be told everything about what the police know when they're fighting terrorism. However , I genuinely believe that the 4 or 5 Irishmen who were arrested at H......[?] , near Morecambe boarding the ferry for Belfast were totally innocent. I haven't seen , at any rate , any suggestions from any quarter that they were guilty.
I can't remember a lot of detail about the other miscarriages of justice at that time but there was the Mc. Guire case , the Guildford bombings and the Woolwich ones. Later , there was a siege at Balcome St. in London , where I think the police arrested some real , professional I.R.A. terrorists.
The point about the Birmigham bombings was that there was a massive public outpouring of disgust and horror at what had happened------and rightly so-----about 70 [?] young people , totally innocent , had been murdered on their Friday night out.However , this public outrage must have encouraged the authorities to act as quickly as possible. Get somebody for this !
It all looks good in the headlines --------but if the police are pressurised into acting rashly and grabbing the wrong people , it makes matters worse because the really dangerous men are still at large.
If you're right and the police acted correctly , but we can't be told the TRUE facts for security reasons , then we're arguing in the dark here. Everytime someone accuses the police of reacting wrongly , under pressure , you can simply say , "Ah but they can't tell us the real situation". So be it !
Incidentally , I think the police do a great job , in general , but , increasingly , they are over-controlled by , "guidelines" , "targets " and are becoming increasingly under central control. I think , they themselves don't like this and ought to be left to get on with their job in the best way they know. If you put any body of people under pressure , you are quite likely , I think , to get botched results.

Macca

08-07-2005, 06:50

Hi there, just lil' old me again.

Remember this?

Originally posted by foo_fighter
OK, 3 points I can think of, pick any one you like,

1) Have you seen an x-ray machine? Not exactly the size of a pocket camera are they? Do you think they have one that works on 3xAAA batteries?

2) What if the x-rays set off the device? Then it's no longer a "controlled" explosion. How much additional damage do you think is "acceptable"?

3) Even if it would work, it would still be the EOD team that had to do the investigation (use this device), so you'd still have to close off the area, and wait for them to get to the site of the suspect package before declaring the package "empty". So what happened yesterday would not have been any different.

I'm sure the brave "morons" who actually do this sort of dangerous work may well be able to come up with even more reasons, why don't you ask one the next time you see them, but I really would advise leaving the "moron" bit out of the conversation.

Well.

I've just read the article linked to below, and lo and behold, what did I find.....

Originally posted by chin_wag
This page is quite interesting.

Guardian - How the army carry out controlled explosions (http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/thisweek/story/0,12977,1043821,00.html)

X-rays can help to judge whether an explosive device is present, and perhaps how sophisticated it is.

I'm quite reieved that my question has been answered really, because after passing through Kings Cross tube two minutes before the bomb went off yesterday morning, I thought god was simply teasing me by putting me in such close proximity to so many bomb disposal experts......

pitsmoorlad

08-07-2005, 07:08

Just an extra thought on the Sheffield bag / London bombs. I wonder if anyone in Sheffield has come forward and said, "it was my bag, sorry. I put it down and forgot about it."
If no one does, or no-one has, then there's always the possibility that this was a deliberate distraction to make people think that the targets were North of London. Add that to the G8 conference even further North and it could have been planned to make the police etc take their eyes away from London.
Just a thought.

Macca

08-07-2005, 07:56

Originally posted by pitsmoorlad
Just an extra thought on the Sheffield bag / London bombs. I wonder if anyone in Sheffield has come forward and said, "it was my bag, sorry. I put it down and forgot about it."
If no one does, or no-one has, then there's always the possibility that this was a deliberate distraction to make people think that the targets were North of London. Add that to the G8 conference even further North and it could have been planned to make the police etc take their eyes away from London.
Just a thought.

Would you admit to it though?!

foo_fighter

08-07-2005, 08:11

Originally posted by liencam
Oh My God! Do they not have x-ray type machines that they can use?!

Morons!
So, do you still think that they are "morons"?

Macca

08-07-2005, 08:18

Originally posted by liencam
Perhaps the word 'morons' was a bit strong (so was your reaction IMO), but I was only suggesting what could be a quicker way of appraising the severity of the situation.

To see the above....

foo_fighter

08-07-2005, 08:23

Originally posted by liencam
To see the above....
Anyway, glad to see you've answered your own question.

So, I'll refer you to point 3:

3) Even if it would work, it would still be the EOD team that had to do the investigation (use this device), so you'd still have to close off the area, and wait for them to get to the site of the suspect package before declaring the package "empty". So what happened yesterday would not have been any different.

Macca

08-07-2005, 08:32

Originally posted by foo_fighter
Anyway, glad to see you've answered your own question.

So, I'll refer you to point 3:

Nope, as if they had used the equipment discussed in the article, they wouldn't have blown the bag up (seeing as it was empty), and the are would have been cleared a lot quicker.

foo_fighter

08-07-2005, 08:39

Originally posted by liencam
Nope, as if they had used the equipment discussed in the article, they wouldn't have blown the bag up (seeing as it was empty), and the are would have been cleared a lot quicker.
You're missing the point (again).

Experts in their field, attended an incident, used suitable equipment, and no one was hurt.

The time it takes to do this is the time it takes to do this.

If you feel you could do better, get yourself down to the recruitment centre and apply for a job…

…let us know how you get on.

;)

Macca

08-07-2005, 08:47

Originally posted by foo_fighter
You're missing the point (again).

Experts in their field, attended an incident, used suitable equipment, and no one was hurt.

The time it takes to do this is the time it takes to do this.

If you feel you could do better, get yourself down to the recruitment centre and apply for a job…

…let us know how you get on.

;)

How, if the equipment was suitable, could they come to the conclusion that a controlled detonation was the correct action to take?

Strix

08-07-2005, 08:48

Originally posted by Fareast
Strix ,

The point about the Birmigham bombings was that there was a massive public outpouring of disgust and horror at what had happened------and rightly so-----about 70 [?] young people , totally innocent , had been murdered on their Friday night out.However , this public outrage must have encouraged the authorities to act as quickly as possible. Get somebody for this !
............

Incidentally , I think the police do a great job , in general , but , increasingly , they are over-controlled by , "guidelines" , "targets " and are becoming increasingly under central control. I think , they themselves don't like this and ought to be left to get on with their job in the best way they know. If you put any body of people under pressure , you are quite likely , I think , to get botched results.

I'll concede that the midlands force are/were a law unto themselves though, and are arguably the reason we are in the situation we are today where the police have to be 'policed'. This wasn't their only instance of banging somebody up

(I can't remember when it was - possibly the mid eighties - that there was a huge investigation into them, and the current constraints heavily imposed to prevent any other force behaving the same way)

foo_fighter

08-07-2005, 09:00

Originally posted by liencam
How, if the equipment was suitable, could they come to the conclusion that a controlled detonation was the correct action to take?
I don't know, I wasn't there...

...what a pity you weren't, it could obviously have been handled so much better if you'd been in control.

:loopy:

Cyclone

08-07-2005, 09:01

Originally posted by liencam
How, if the equipment was suitable, could they come to the conclusion that a controlled detonation was the correct action to take?

maybe the equipment isn't foolproof or wasn't appopriate or available in this case. Or maybe they just like blowing up empty bags.

Macca

08-07-2005, 09:17

Originally posted by Cyclone
maybe the equipment isn't foolproof or wasn't appopriate or available in this case. Or maybe they just like blowing up empty bags.

That's my point, it appears that the equipment I enquired about wasn't available - although it is used.

Of course the chances of a Pyromaniac working in eod is probably quite high - and I dare say it would be enjoyable to blow something up.