My belief is that traffic lights are triggered by vehicles driving over their field detectors. Now I have never had a problem with this before, but My new motorcycle is mostly alloys and not much steel in it's construction and I believe that due to the lack of iron in it's mass, is doesn't always provide enough field alteration to trigger the lights to change.

This is all very fine when a car comes up behind and sets of the sequence to green, but once or twice I have been on my own waiting in Vain [To Quote the Late Great Robert Nesta].

1) Am I within my rights to procede with caution through the red light after waiting for a minute or two.
2) Does this happen to anyone else
3) Has anyone been prosecuted for proceding through a red light when they [the lights] ignore the fact that you are waiting like a good citizen of the road.
4) Am I going mad?
5) Should I sling bag of 14lbs of iron filings to the bottom of the engine?
6) Should you pull wheelies until you attract a copper and explain that you cannot procede?
7) Does red actually mean go now

Try riding a carbon fibre road bike (pedals). Where I used to work there was an automatic gate that had one of those magnetic field things. I had to lie my bike on it so that the metal wheels were horizontal to get it to operate! You could try that...

I have a similar problem when visiting my b/f, when i leave his road i turn right onto a traffic-light crossroads... on the wrong side of the sensors!!! If its late at night and there's no traffic about, then the lights jsut sit there on red in all directions and ignore me, I end up reversing and driving toward the lights again til it realises i'm there!! But then i have a car, its a bit heavier than a m/bike, dunno what i'd do in that situation, get off and push the bike to the other side of the lights then carry on again?????

My suggestion would be:- Eat more pies!

get through the red light....... millions of motorists drive with no tax and insurance and you are worrying about carefully going through a red light when its not your fault.......

Ah Muddy what a law abiding citizen you are....if no-one is on the roads I go through red lights anyway....especially those at roadworks where the traffic is in single file...I am sure I am not the only one that 'tags' on the end despite the light changing to red....:hihi:

Remember though in the olden days if traffic lights weren't working a police officer would be summoned immediately to direct the traffic by hand.... These days you just have to edge forward and hope you can make it across a junction safely if the lights are out...it happened to me last week as the lights at Darnall were out near the 'demolished' Morrisons!!

:confused:

Originally posted by SHarper
My suggestion would be:- Eat more pies!

lol

What are traffic lights?

No really ~ most lights have movement sensors.

If I am waiting for a long time, I check all directions for safety and bobbies, then GO!

Originally posted by SHarper
My suggestion would be:- Eat more pies!

Unless the pies were full of iron I don't think that would help.

Or you could buy one of these:- www.detnews.com/2003/commuting/0310/26/a01-307303.htm

Originally posted by SHarper
Or you could buy one of these:- www.detnews.com/2003/commuting/0310/26/a01-307303.htm

I am taking you on my next Italian job Mister :thumbsup:

Originally posted by SHarper
My suggestion would be:- Eat more pies!

Cheeky......

Although If I was to put on 20 stone, the rear shock would be much closer to the road surface. Plenty of steel there.

I have been researching this pseudo-predicament for the last few minutes. I was under the impression that traffic lights were controlled by pressure sensors in the road, I am now enlightened.

Apparently, what you need to do is look for a "quadruple induction loop" embedded into the tarmac, these are usually nearer the curb than the normal loops, so that push bikes register. Failing the obvious quadruple loop, ride along overbanding, where the loop has been laid in the direction you are travelling.....

"Eat more pies" is the standard answer to a lot of questions....

you could try flashing your lights, its worked for me ,up to now

Originally posted by bigjay
get through the red light....... millions of motorists drive with no tax and insurance and you are worrying about carefully going through a red light when its not your fault.......

I recently got three points on my license - no excuses - the 30 MPH limit was well signed, a lapse of concentration on my part......

But since then, I'm paranoid about going through traffic lights if they are at amber just in case they change to red as I get through them.

the reason? Most traffic lights have a camera mounted on top to monitor on coming traffic.

So presumably you could get a conviction for going through a red light.

Originally posted by Draggletail
the reason? Most traffic lights have a camera mounted on top to monitor on coming traffic.

So presumably you could get a conviction for going through a red light.

Yes, the camera on the lights on Queens Road is there for precisely that reason.

In general, if I notice that the other lights (assuming a junction) have changed twice, I assume that I've been 'missed' from the sequence and just go anyway when it's safe. If there's only one set of lights, I just wait until I get fed up of waiting.

Originally posted by Draggletail

the reason? Most traffic lights have a camera mounted on top to monitor on coming traffic.



They are not cameras, they are movement sensors which allow the system to manage traffic automatically.

The cameras are usually free standing units, similar to speed cameras.

I don't know whether this is actually legal, and I suppose it's a real pain, but I suppose you could switch off the motor, get off your bike, push it onto the pavement and cross the road, or turn the corner, on foot, and then get back on your bike and carry on as normal....lol

I remember, when we were kids, there used to be rubber sensors in the road near some traffic lights and, when it wasn't particularly busy, we used to jump on the sensors to make the lights change....it used to really wind up the drivers going the other way because the lights had changed, and there was no sign of a vehicle triggering the sensor.....jeeze, I was a vandal:blush:

Originally posted by Ann_x
I don't know whether this is actually legal, and I suppose it's a real pain, but I suppose you could switch off the motor, get off your bike, push it onto the pavement and cross the road, or turn the corner, on foot, and then get back on your bike and carry on as normal....lol

I remember, when we were kids, there used to be rubber sensors in the road near some traffic lights and, when it wasn't particularly busy, we used to jump on the sensors to make the lights change....it used to really wind up the drivers going the other way because the lights had changed, and there was no sign of a vehicle triggering the sensor.....jeeze, I was a vandal:blush:
There are no rubber sensors, they are field detectors they detect steel car wheels and steel mass of large vehicles.

While it is possible to switch off a motorbike engine and push it around. They are extremely heavy and you need to be Geoff Capes to get one up a curb along a pavement etc.. Especially a machine over 500cc.

Originally posted by muddycoffee
They are extremely heavy and you need to be Geoff Capes

Eat more pies..........

Try running upto the light - stick your front brake hard on until rear wheel lifts and the bike is stood vertical on front wheel (STOPPIE). Works for me every time. CAUTION: pre warm tyres first?

Originally posted by stunt_monkey
Try running upto the light - stick your front brake hard on until rear wheel lifts and the bike is stood vertical on front wheel (STOPPIE). Works for me every time. CAUTION: pre warm tyres first?
Oh good, the responsible face of motorcycling returns.

Don't suppose you'd like to explain the technical reasons behind how your method makes the lights change would you?

I'm still a little unsure.

:huh:

Originally posted by stunt_monkey
Try running upto the light - stick your front brake hard on until rear wheel lifts and the bike is stood vertical on front wheel (STOPPIE). Works for me every time. CAUTION: pre warm tyres first?

I repeat, what are traffic lights :P

Originally posted by foo_fighter
Oh good, the responsible face of motorcycling returns.

Don't suppose you'd like to explain the technical reasons behind how your method makes the lights change would you?

I'm still a little unsure.

:huh:

Was starting to miss you foo_fighter :D

Originally posted by venger
...Was starting to miss you foo_fighter :D
Just knew ya would be.

:thumbsup:

Originally posted by muddycoffee
My belief is that traffic lights are triggered by vehicles driving over their field detectors. Now I have never had a problem with this before, but My new motorcycle is mostly alloys and not much steel in it's construction and I believe that due to the lack of iron in it's mass, is doesn't always provide enough field alteration to trigger the lights to change.
I was always under the impression that the lights were triggered by pressure rather than field detectors - otherwise things like Robin Reliants (fibre glass) or those cars with aluminium bodies wouldn't make the lights change. However I am open to correction.

Originally posted by muddycoffee
1) Am I within my rights to procede with caution through the red light after waiting for a minute or two.
2) Does this happen to anyone else
3) Has anyone been prosecuted for proceding through a red light when they [the lights] ignore the fact that you are waiting like a good citizen of the road.
It depends what you call a minute or two I suppose. There are no guidelines in either the Highway Code (http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/16.htm#151) or Police Guidelines (http://www.police-law.co.uk/rainertech/policelaw.nsf/62e6e9cb6e1ab98580256ba9003653ec/ebd8cc7f71b0b96080256baa00579df2!OpenDocument&Highlight=0,traffic) other than to state it is an offence to contravene a road/traffic sign, so if you did go through a red light and you were pulled for it, you would have to show beyond all reasonable doubt that you had been waiting a long time (and I would suggest that a minute or two is not long enough) and that you took all reasonable precautions to ensure that it was safe. You could also try arguing that in your opinion the traffic lights did not seem to be working (correctly) and that you proceeded along the lines of section 152 of the Highway Code - 'If the traffic lights are not working, proceed with caution'. As most traffic lights are controlled by computer, I presume there would be some kind of log/report to show the sequence/waiting times at that particular time.

Originally posted by Draggletail
Most traffic lights have a camera mounted on top to monitor on coming traffic.
Originally posted by venger
They are not cameras, they are movement sensors which allow the system to manage traffic automatically.

The cameras are usually free standing units, similar to speed cameras.
Venger is correct. The cameras you see on top of traffic lights are movement sensors and you will see them on particular types of pedestrian crossings (ie puffins, toucans etc). If you look closely you will see that they also monitor the crossing itself to keep the lights on red while ever there are pedestrians on it. The ones that monitor people running red lights are just like speed cameras to look at but are grey rather than yellow.

Originally posted by venger
I repeat, what are traffic lights :P
Originally posted by Shiesh
....if no-one is on the roads I go through red lights anyway....:hihi:
Not clever and not funny!! Lets hope you never meet yourself coming the other direction. You might think there is no-one coming but who knows? Running red lights is becoming more and more prevalent and is extremely dangerous.

Originally posted by Shiesh
Remember though in the olden days if traffic lights weren't working a police officer would be summoned immediately to direct the traffic by hand.... These days you just have to edge forward and hope you can make it across a junction safely if the lights are out...it happened to me last week as the lights at Darnall were out near the 'demolished' Morrisons!!

:confused:
Exactly the right thing to do - see the quote from rule 152 above. If the traffic lights are not working, treat it as an unmarled junction and proceed with caution. No-one has priority in this situation, even if one road appears to be a more 'major' road than the other although obviously common sense would dictate that in Shiesh's situation above, if you were coming from a side road onto Greenland Road, you would perhaps be more careful than if you were on Greenland Road itself.

So I suppose the answer to muddycoffee's original question is to use your common sense and hope that if you do get pulled, the police also use a bit of it too.

Originally posted by Saxon
I was always under the impression that the lights were triggered by pressure rather than field detectors - otherwise things like Robin Reliants (fibre glass) or those cars with aluminium bodies wouldn't make the lights change. However I am open to correction...
Don't know "historically" what systems used to be out there, but currently there are two common systems, one using microwave detectors (as you mentioned, although they aren't just fitted to pedestrian crossings), and the other using "loop" sensors in the ground to detect electro-magnetic fields (IIRC), these are "triggered" by large metal objects (via changes in the electric field).

It "might" be reasonable to expect the alternator, or other electric systems on a vehicle to trigger the "loop" detector, due to the change in "field", but I'm no expert.

So in answer to muddycoffee's original question (sort of)...

...personally I "blip" the throttle on the bike as I pass over the "loops" (just in case my assumption is correct, and it's quite often happening because of downward gear changes anyway), and it seems to work for me.

Good luck.

:)

This morning I noticed some sensors on broadfield road which appear to be set up to detect Pedal Bicycles in the Red cycle waiting zone. I assume that Draggletail has mentioned.

Unsure as to where the Law stands with this, but If the lights don't change I may advance into the cycle zone to see if the Pedal cycle sensors detect my motorcycle. Surely any Traffic Rozzer would see I am only doing this in an effort to trigger the green lights sequence.

If you want to know about sensors on traffic lights and how they work in conjunction with road pads, contact Mike Lancashire, ABCON, Sanderson Road, Newhall, Sheffield. The company are the main suppliers of equipment and he will always be pleased to answer your questions. I was their chief designer.

Originally posted by BoppinBruce
I was their chief designer.

So you should technically also be able to answer them, no ?

I can, indeed I can, but let thread take natural course. I like to see what people think and how it affects them.

The other option would be to carry a large coil of wire about half a metre across that you could plonk on the sensor.

Originally posted by foo_fighter
It "might" be reasonable to expect the alternator, or other electric systems on a vehicle to trigger the "loop" detector, due to the change in "field", but I'm no expert.

So in answer to muddycoffee's original question (sort of)...

...personally I "blip" the throttle on the bike as I pass over the "loops" (just in case my assumption is correct, and it's quite often happening because of downward gear changes anyway), and it seems to work for me.


I would imagine the alternator on your bike is so small [as a bike battery is small, compared to a car] that it doesn't need much weight in it's copper windings, or iron bit's in it's core. I would have thought that the most likely parts of a modern motorbike, to make a difference to the field detectors, are the front brake disks. As most of the rest is fairly high above the road surface.
And daft as it sounds if Stunt Monkey does a Stoppie on a loop, his large single front disk, is likely to be detected by the loop. And the weight of the whole bike compressing the tyre might make it half an inch nearer to the road meaning it more likely to be detected.

Originally posted by tim_rutter
The other option would be to carry a large coil of wire about half a metre across that you could plonk on the sensor.
Not sure that would work if it was copper wire, Inless you set up a large loop with it on a frame and excited it with a DC charge.

I would think you would need Iron or steel.

stopped reading on page 2, i'll just relate my anecdote.

A few weeks ago all the lights around park square roundabout and down to the bus station locked up. They did it just as I was arriving at park square.
You could tell they'd seized as every point around the roundabout had stopped and none of the entry lanes were moving either, so people started proceeding cautiously through the lights (after a few well placed beeps at the too cautious).
By the time i'd parked and walked up to the swimming pool entrance the entire area was gridlocked.

I think you just have to use your own judgement. I have on occasion been waiting and thinking if they don't change soon i'll just go anyway, and lo and behold they do change eventually.

Originally posted by muddycoffee
Not sure that would work if it was copper wire, Inless you set up a large loop with it on a frame and excited it with a DC charge.

I would think you would need Iron or steel.

Indeed it would have to be ferrous. I'm not sure this idea would work as a marketable product.

During my research yesterday, I did uncover the fact that the crank of your engine is the most likely component to trigger the induction loop....

A logical solution to the 'sluggish traffic light change' situation at quiet times would be to switch the recognised main road to permanent green, and the approaching side roads to flashing amber to indicate 'proceed with caution/give way'.

This way there would be no pointless hold-ups, temptation to 'jump' red or lights stuck on red.

I'll patent that idea in the morning.:thumbsup:

That's interesting Saxon51, In the greek Islands, where I have hired scooters, they seem to have a system like this where their is no amber, and the red just flashes all day. The green occasionally comes on but nobody seems ever to notice.

Originally posted by muddycoffee
That's interesting Saxon51, In the greek Islands, where I have hired scooters, they seem to have a system like this where their is no amber, and the red just flashes all day. The green occasionally comes on but nobody seems ever to notice.

Drat!!!!!

Back to the drawing board.

Originally posted by SHarper


Apparently, what you need to do is look for a "quadruple induction loop" embedded into the tarmac, these are usually nearer the curb than the normal loops, so that push bikes register.
Hmmm.... theres one of these on my route home from work and my bike doesn't seem to activate it... so I get on to the pavement and push the button for the connected pedestrian crossing.... so now I am a menace.

Originally posted by saxon51
A logical solution to the 'sluggish traffic light change' situation at quiet times would be to switch the recognised main road to permanent green, and the approaching side roads to flashing amber to indicate 'proceed with caution/give way'.



There is at least one country that I have been to that does put intersection lights onto "flashing amber" for all-comers at night.

USA?

This lunchtime I had the same problem again. Just outside the Seat Dealership on Abbeydale road, Facing north at the traffic light filter lane to turn down the small steep Bedale Road and onto Broadfield Road. I tried Putting the front wheel on the loop, I tried putting the crank of the engine over it and revving. But I checked my little clock and it was nearly 2 mins and the lights had shown no sign of changing.

And even worse a constant stream of traffic coming the other way which wasn't stopping anyhow, I needed the lights to change to stop the traffic to let me go. It wasn't a situation where I could procede with caution, I could have been there all day.

All of a sudden a couple of builders drew up in a small red pickup and I shoved right forward to make sure the loop had the full benefit of their truck and guess what, the lights changed instantly.

I think that I am going to have to pay some builders to follow me around in future to activate the lights.

Originally posted by muddycoffee
My belief is that traffic lights are triggered by vehicles driving over their field detectors. Now I have never had a problem with this before, but My new motorcycle is mostly alloys and not much steel in it's construction and I believe that due to the lack of iron in it's mass, is doesn't always provide enough field alteration to trigger the lights to change.

This is all very fine when a car comes up behind and sets of the sequence to green, but once or twice I have been on my own waiting in Vain [To Quote the Late Great Robert Nesta].

1) Am I within my rights to procede with caution through the red light after waiting for a minute or two.
2) Does this happen to anyone else
3) Has anyone been prosecuted for proceding through a red light when they [the lights] ignore the fact that you are waiting like a good citizen of the road.
4) Am I going mad?
5) Should I sling bag of 14lbs of iron filings to the bottom of the engine?
6) Should you pull wheelies until you attract a copper and explain that you cannot procede?
7) Does red actually mean go now

If you drive through a red light for any reason you are breaking the law, however, on the rare occasions it has happened to me, after waiting a long time, I proceed very slowly looking both ways being prepared to stop if necessary.

Originally posted by muddycoffee
This morning I noticed some sensors on broadfield road which appear to be set up to detect Pedal Bicycles in the Red cycle waiting zone. I assume that Draggletail has mentioned.

Unsure as to where the Law stands with this, but If the lights don't change I may advance into the cycle zone to see if the Pedal cycle sensors detect my motorcycle. Surely any Traffic Rozzer would see I am only doing this in an effort to trigger the green lights sequence.

As far as the law stands, if you cross the white line behind the pedal cycle zone and you are on a motoribike or in a car then you have jumped the lights. I find that most of the induction loops on lights in Sheffield are good enough to detect my pushbike before the 'pushbikes only zone' so I'm suprised that you're having problems on a motorbike.

The advice I've received is to cycle over the left front corner of the induction loop as that is where it is most sensitive - could be absolute twaddle but it seems to work for me.

Originally posted by ptigga
As far as the law stands, if you cross the white line behind the pedal cycle zone and you are on a motoribike or in a car then you have jumped the lights.

Wrong. See Highway Code rule 154 (http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/16.htm#154) - last sentence

Originally posted by ptigga
I find that most of the induction loops on lights in Sheffield are good enough to detect my pushbike before the 'pushbikes only zone' so I'm suprised that you're having problems on a motorbike.
Yes most are fine, but there are a small number which are a problem. When I have collated it I will put the list here, to see if anyone has any others, and then when we have a comprehensive list I will send a letter to the local streetforce or whoever is responsible for these faulty controls

Originally posted by Saxon
Wrong. See Highway Code rule 154 (http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/16.htm#154) - last sentence
Thanks Saxon,

So in summary, I must wait behind the advance stop line, but If the lights changed when I was in the red zone I should wait behind the second white line in the shaded area for cycles.

I would have thought that only very slow moving motor vehicles would be caught in the red zone in the normal course of things unless the traffic was queuing and drivers had advanced across their line without the exit being clear.

Originally posted by muddycoffee
1) Am I within my rights to procede with caution through the red light after waiting for a minute or two.
2) Does this happen to anyone else
3) Has anyone been prosecuted for proceding through a red light when they [the lights] ignore the fact that you are waiting like a good citizen of the road.
4) Am I going mad?
5) Should I sling bag of 14lbs of iron filings to the bottom of the engine?
6) Should you pull wheelies until you attract a copper and explain that you cannot procede?
7) Does red actually mean go now
1. Not in a million years.
2. Propably.
3. No doubt there is a list as long as your arm.
4. :D
5. Might help.
6. :roll:
7. Errrr... :loopy:

Your problem is that you are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

You CAN'T go through a red light and you will end up in court, probably for Driving Without Due Care and Attention or something similar.

Looks like it's iron filings for you m'boy.

i was told a year or 2 ago by a police officer that if you are stuck at a set of temporary traffic lights(set up for road works etc) and they do not change after 2 min or so then you may cautiously proceed through even if on red but only if you know that it is safe to do so!!!

not sure if this is true or if it applies to static traffic lights too

are you completely that sad to ask about things like this?lol

Originally posted by haddock
are you completely that sad to ask about things like this?lol

:hihi: :hihi: :hihi: You should talk!
http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?postid=489496#post489496 :D :thumbsup: