And i have proof!

Share it then.

Last night i prayed for an end to famine and i also asked god to get rid of all types of cancer.
I have no vested interest and it was a totaly selfless act but guess what.
He didnt do ****.

I agree with you about God, England. I think anyone who believes in any deity should be shipped off somewhere else. Those bloody Anglicans and the like do my nut.

Last night i prayed for an end to famine and i also asked god to get rid of all types of cancer.
I have no vested interest and it was a totaly selfless act but guess what.
He didnt do ****.

Doesn't proove anything at all. You seem to be lacking in thinking skills.

Last night i prayed for an end to famine and i also asked god to get rid of all types of cancer.
I have no vested interest and it was a totaly selfless act but guess what.
He didnt do ****.

I have never felt the urge to pray, not for anything. I do know that most of the people who do make them never get brilliant results.

I agree with you about God, England. I think anyone who believes in any deity should be shipped off somewhere else. Those bloody Anglicans and the like do my nut.

You're not sending the Queen away are you? I quite like her.

Doesn't proove anything at all. You seem to be lacking in thinking skills.

Dont you belong to that mutual appreciation thread that is emerging nearby :rolleyes:

Doesn't proove anything at all. You seem to be lacking in thinking skills.

Explain rather than insult.

Group hug :)

I tend to agree that he doesn't exist and if he does, the way he is portrayed in the likes of the Bible or Koran, I wouldn't worship him anyway. If he can't do something about all the evil in the world then he really isn't a stand up guy in my book.

You're not sending the Queen away are you? I quite like her.

She'd be the first on the boat! Her, Tony Blair, Nadine Dorries, Jonathan "hop skip and jump is not a real sport" Edwards, Cliff Richards and Mel Sugar Tits Gibson.

Well, praying doesn't work for a number of reasons, not least that 'fact' that the Christian god yahveh is supposedly omniscient (meaning he/she/it knows everything past present and future, including whether you'll pray or not and what will happen as a result.)

Interesting that people call yahveh 'him' (and occasionally her). Gender only exists as a function of sexual reproduction, so yahveh can only be male if he has the appropriate genitalia, and that genitalia would require the existence of a female counterpart. So, either yahveh is sexless, and therefore neither male nor female, or yahveh is male and there are female yahvehs, or yahveh is female

Explain rather than insult.

I would explain but you probably wouldn't get it....oh, alright, go on then.....

The fact that god didn't answer your prayers could be explained by any number of reasons other than that he doesn't exist -

a) He exists but doesn't like you
b) He'll answer it next year
c) He exists but is too busy at the moment
d) He exists but chooses not to answer for his own good reasons

You get the idea. You can't disprove God any more than I or anyone else can prove him. It's a matter of faith. You don't have any, simple as that.
No need to get the hump on, really.

Last night i prayed for an end to famine and i also asked god to get rid of all types of cancer.
I have no vested interest and it was a totaly selfless act but guess what.
He didnt do ****.

Well it does state in the bible that 'God' said he/she/it would never interfere with man again following the great floods after Noah's ark. So maybe this was why your prayers weren't answered?:huh:

I would explain but you probably wouldn't get it....oh, alright, go on then.....

The fact that god didn't answer your prayers could be explained by any number of reasons other than that he doesn't exist -

a) He exists but doesn't like you
b) He'll answer it next year
c) He exists but is too busy at the moment
d) He exists but chooses not to answer for his own good reasons

You get the idea. You can't disprove God any more than I or anyone else can prove him. It's a matter of faith. You don't have any, simple as that.
No need to get the hump on, really.
What a load of garbage but then looking at some of your previous posts its hardly suprising.

Well it does state in the bible that 'God' said he/she/it would never interfere with man again following the great floods after Noah's ark. So maybe this was why your prayers weren't answered?:huh:

I thought he said he would never again destroy the earth....not that he wouldn't interfere with man again. Then again, I'm not too up on my Bible reading these days.

Well it does state in the bible that 'God' said he/she/it would never interfere with man again following the great floods after Noah's ark. So maybe this was why your prayers weren't answered?:huh:

I thought he said he would never again destroy the earth....not that he wouldn't interfere with man again.
Either way.. how convenient.

:)

What a load of garbage but then looking at some of your previous posts its hardly suprising.

Listen bro, Halibut's completely right in this case. You have proved nothing with your little example, you cannot prove god doesn't exist. Well perhaps you can, but you certainly have not done so here on this thread.

Oh, and look at my posting history if you like, you'll find I'm one of the more ardent advocates of atheism on this forum. You're making us look bad!:)

Listen bro, Halibut's completely right in this case. You have proved nothing with your little example, you cannot prove god doesn't exist. Well perhaps you can, but you certainly have not done so here on this thread.

Oh, and look at my posting history if you like, you'll find I'm one of the more ardent advocates of atheism on this forum. You're making us look bad!:)

Saying all that. Mr England is right though. Proof or not. :)

Logic and reason leads us to the right answer.

Saying all that. Mr England is right though. Proof or not. :)

Logic and reason leads us to the right answer.

Yeah, you're probably right, but he seems to have started this thread specifically to present his 'proof' of the non-existence of god and not just to say 'god doesn't exist, here's a good reason why not' any in any case, we've had that thread loads of times, and I don't think Grahame'll be around to play with us at this time of night.:)

Yeah, you're probably right, but he seems to have started this thread specifically to present his 'proof' of the non-existence of god and not just to say 'god doesn't exist, here's a good reason why not' any in any case, we've had that thread loads of times, and I don't think Grahame'll be around to play with us at this time of night.:)

I can't argue that Mr England has provide proof. He hasn't.

Praying, at best has provided him some empirical evidence that god doesn't exist. I could also pray too, and there is a 'chance' that what I pray for will happen. That would depend on how reasonable I was being. Within reason, I could pray for 'hope' for people, then go out and help people with none. The latter part, is the good side of religion, but it makes god no more real. It would simply make me a better person, or a helpful person with thoughts away from myself.

That's not enough for people with faith.

It's shame that people who have faith won't have the ability to acknowledge their misconception upon death, because their thoughts and beliefs won't exist anymore.

I can't argue that Mr England has provide proof. He hasn't.

Praying, at best has provided him some empirical evidence that god doesn't exist.No it hasn't, it has just provided empirical evidence that god doesn't answer prayers. This has no bearing on whether god exists or not.

Where are all the theists? I wanna argue for the good guys!

No it hasn't, it has just provided empirical evidence that god doesn't answer prayers. This has no bearing on whether god exists or not.

So why do people pray then? If he doesn't answer prayers then being taught to pray is waste of time.

(not arguing with you btw :hihi:)

Did I waste my younger days praying because that was what I was taught? Yes.

Only the wise wake up.

Well it does state in the bible that 'God' said he/she/it would never interfere with man again following the great floods after Noah's ark. So maybe this was why your prayers weren't answered?:huh:

I don't know how you came to that conclusion when God established a covenant with us.

9.8 Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him, 9.9 "Behold, I establish my covenant with you and your descendants after you, 9.10 and with every living creature that is with you, the birds, the cattle, and every beast of the earth with you, as many as came out of the ark. 9.11 I establish my covenant with you, that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of a flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth." 9.12 And God said, "This is the sign of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all future generations: 9.13 I set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth. 9.14 When I bring clouds over the earth and the bow is seen in the clouds, 9.15 I will remember my covenant which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh. 9.16 When the bow is in the clouds, I will look upon it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth." 9.17 God said to Noah, "This is the sign of the covenant which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth."

God does exist for those who have a religious disposition and for the rest of us it does in the form of a democratic government, not that there is a lot of difference between the two in religious minds as they use the laws of democracy to enforce their religious laws.

They both try to control you and they both tax you, the biggest difference is, is that one is an older concept invented purely by man and discrimates against women and the other is a more acceptable form invented purely by man that we all have a say in and have a vote on.

Religion should be a private thing and nothing to do with life in the real world.

Doesn't proove anything at all. You seem to be lacking in thinking skills.

Couldn't agree more.

I would explain but you probably wouldn't get it....oh, alright, go on then.....

The fact that god didn't answer your prayers could be explained by any number of reasons other than that he doesn't exist -

a) He exists but doesn't like you
b) He'll answer it next year
c) He exists but is too busy at the moment
d) He exists but chooses not to answer for his own good reasons

You get the idea. You can't disprove God any more than I or anyone else can prove him. It's a matter of faith. You don't have any, simple as that.
No need to get the hump on, really.

I can see where you are coming from but living purely by faith that has either been bred into you or taught/handed down in any form when its purely a faith is not reality is it not?

A faith is just that? What is real about superstition?

I can see where you are coming from but living purely by faith that has either been bred into you or taught/handed down in any form when its purely a faith is not reality is it not?

A faith is just that? What is real about superstition?

I'm not sure that you can see where I'm coming from actually - it would be a huge stretch of the imagination to say that I live purely by faith. There are days when I doubt God's existence.
I think you're trying to draw some distiction between a 'learned' or 'inherited' faith rather than one that's been arrived at independently, but I'm not sure that such a distinction makes the one more valid than the other.

I don't think it's possible to prove that yahveh (or any other god) doesn't exist, but it is possible to unpick pretty much everything that xtians, muslims, etc. believe about their god and expose the illogicality and incoherence.

For example; why does god allow evil?

Christians like to use the 'free will' argument to explain the problem of evil. They like to claim that the reason there is evil in the world is because God had to give people free will to choose between evil and good. Supposedly this is because if God had created people how he wanted them to be in the first place, they would be 'mindless robot zombies.' Setting aside the fact that this argument means that God isn't omnipotent this little dodge doesn't work for, among other reasons, the following:

Is there free will in heaven? If not, you can't love god, since the supposed reason for free will is so that people can choose to love god. If there is free will in heaven, you could get kicked out. Satan got kicked out, so why wouldn't you get kicked out too? Given enough time, you're bound to screw up. And you supposedly have an eternity in heaven, so you've got an eternity to exercise your free will and do something wrong.

On the other hand, if you can't get kicked out of heaven, and there is free will there, then that means that eventually someone will commit an evil act (since evil comes from free will) and there will be evil in heaven. If god won't kick out those who exercise their free will and commit evil acts, heaven won't be any different from earth.

Now for the only remaining possibility: that there is no free will in heaven: if there is no free will in heaven, then nobody can love god, since the reason for free will is so that people could choose to love god. So if there is no free will in heaven, then god created people with free will to live out their threescore and ten on earth, then go to heaven to become mindless robot zombies.

But if there is free will in heaven and everybody there still chooses to love god, then that means that god could have created everybody with the capacity to choose love him and still have free will.

If god can't create people who have free will yet still choose to love god, then god isn't omnipotent. 'Omnipotent' means 'able to do ANYTHING.'

Christians say it's impossible not to sin. If you have free will, you have the ability to choose not to sin. Therefore if it's impossible not to sin, you don't have free will.

I tend to agree that he doesn't exist and if he does, the way he is portrayed in the likes of the Bible or Koran, I wouldn't worship him anyway. If he can't do something about all the evil in the world then he really isn't a stand up guy in my book.

What does God have to do with the evil? Its been discussed before.

Example, God didn't make Hitler kill all those Jews- Hitler pressed the button in the gas chamber and same goes for anyone else who commits an act of killing/murder/theft etc.. Humans kill for thier own reasons- evil exists because humans have the free choice to do right or wrong.

Hence when humans commit evil, and commit major sins, such as murder, mass thievery, and other major acts of evil this has nothing to do with God, it is not God's fault, it is the fault of that human being, God is free from what this evil person has done because God does not sanction nor call for it.

Killing someone without a reason (like self defence/ridding the world of an evil person- i.e. execution- an eye for an eye type of thing) is what I am refering to- fighting to defend oneself from tyrancy/occupation/invasion is not murder(unless innocents are killed for nothing- which EVERYONE should condemn be it commited by christians, atheists, muslims, hindus, tamil tigers etc..

So don't use 'emotion' to try and justify the existence of God-that is the first fallacy atheists make. Appealing to emotions is not fact finding or using logic.

As I understand it, children are naturally evil yet they can do no wrong.
An adult is deemed to have understanding of right and wrong, they have the free will to do right and wrong, and the devil will tempt them, God may even instruct them to sin.

Take King David as example, he was instructed to sin, he knows he shouldn't but he does anyway, God then gives him three ways of paying his debt, and david being an adult accepts responsibilities of his sin.

As I understand it, children are naturally evil yet they can do no wrong.


Where did that idea come from?

Where did that idea come from?

Trying to find it, will post it when I do.


Psalm 51:5 = Truly, I was formed in evil, and in sin did my mother give me birth.

1 Corinthians 13:11 = When I was a child, I made use of a child's language, I had a child's feelings and a child's thoughts: now that I am a man, I have put away the things of a child.

Hebrews 5:12-13 = (12)In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! (13)Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.

Isaiah 7:15-16 = (15)He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right. (16)But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.

What does God have to do with the evil? Its been discussed before.

Example, God didn't make Hitler kill all those Jews- Hitler pressed the button in the gas chamber and same goes for anyone else who commits an act of killing/murder/theft etc.. Humans kill for thier own reasons- evil exists because humans have the free choice to do right or wrong.

Hence when humans commit evil, and commit major sins, such as murder, mass thievery, and other major acts of evil this has nothing to do with God, it is not God's fault, it is the fault of that human being, God is free from what this evil person has done because God does not sanction nor call for it.

Killing someone without a reason (like self defence/ridding the world of an evil person- i.e. execution- an eye for an eye type of thing) is what I am refering to- fighting to defend oneself from tyrancy/occupation/invasion is not murder(unless innocents are killed for nothing- which EVERYONE should condemn be it commited by christians, atheists, muslims, hindus, tamil tigers etc..

So don't use 'emotion' to try and justify the existence of God-that is the first fallacy atheists make. Appealing to emotions is not fact finding or using logic.

Evil exists because yhvh either could stop it but allows it or can't stop it. yhvh knows everything, past present and future, so already knew when it created the universe precisely what evil would occur and precisely when. Clearly, yhvh accepts all evil as part of his grand plan to populate heaven with praise-singing zombie sycophants (see my post above).

On the other hand, Epicurus (341–270 B.C.) founded the Epicurean Philosophy. He made many contributions to philosophy, but one of my favorites is his riddle on the nature of God. Most people claim that God is omnibenevolent (all-good), omniscient (all-knowing), and omnipotent (all-powerful). Epicurus had this to say about a god simultaneously meeting all of those requirements:

Is god willing to prevent evil but can't?
Then god is not omnipotent.
Is god able to prevent evil but won't?
Then god is not good.
Is god both able and willing?
Then where did evil come from?
Is god neither able nor willing?
Then why call it god?

don't use 'emotion' to try and justify the existence of God-that is the first fallacy atheists make. Appealing to emotions is not fact finding or using logic.

Using emotion to justify the existence of god is a common fallacy among theists, not atheists.

Using emotion to justify the existence of god is a common fallacy among theists, not atheists.

I have heard plenty times (and this thread is proof) where atheists use 'evil in the world' syndrome to convince themselves that god does not exist- that is EMOTION. It proves NOTHING.

Perhaps you'd care to point out the emotional bits of my last few long posts. When you've done that, can you answer the arguments I've made? As far as I can tell, you're the one getting upset and emotional, not me. I'm sitting here with a little grin on my face enjoying your incoherence!

I'm not sure that you can see where I'm coming from actually - it would be a huge stretch of the imagination to say that I live purely by faith. There are days when I doubt God's existence.
I think you're trying to draw some distiction between a 'learned' or 'inherited' faith rather than one that's been arrived at independently, but I'm not sure that such a distinction makes the one more valid than the other.

Note the highlighted where you only prove to yourself that you believe in a God.

You have to answer yourself what is imiginary or what is passed onto you and what you believe in yourself as a result of your experiences.

Are you religious?

You have to answer yourself what is imiginary or what is passed onto you and what you believe in yourself as a result of your experiences.

I have asked and answered those questions, thanks.
Are you religious?
I don't go to church these days except for weddings and funerals, if that's what you mean.

I have heard plenty times (and this thread is proof) where atheists use 'evil in the world' syndrome to convince themselves that god does not exist- that is EMOTION. It proves NOTHING.

Btw, the problem of evil is something theologists debate much more than atheists. That's because it really is a problem for you if you believe in an all-good, all-powerful deity. It's not a problem for atheists. To me, the world looks just the way I'd expect it to look without a god.

Explain rather than insult.

and

What a load of garbage but then looking at some of your previous posts its hardly suprising.


Pot, kettle?

Realistically, belief in a god is such a personal thing that you're never going to convince someone of the opposite belief, so I don't see the point in trying. I'm never going to convince someone who has strong faith that there is no God. Just not going to happen, and if they're happy, why try?!

For me, it isn't about proving anything doesn't exist. No one has yet prove to me that god does for example, and that's what I rely on. There's no need to dis-prove something until it's proven, or there's strong evidence to suggest it's proven. People believe in horoscopes, but until someone provides me with evidence to suggest they're actually a "genuine" way of seeing the future or whatever, I won't bother myself trying to investigate whether they are.

If someone said they had proof that there was an 8 armed man in the centre of the earth ruling everything, I'd look at the same principle - prove it to me. Until it's proven, I wont believe it. I don't mind if others do though. Their choice.

I dont think anyone should question the existence of god.

I'v had love in good times and also in bad. I've failed some of the bad times which makes me a weak man, but in that time alone i've reflected on my mistakes and put them right.

I think we're selfish because we expect everything to go right and what use would that be when we must go threw the bad times in order to learn?

Dont blame god for the doings of man.

What does God have to do with the evil? Its been discussed before.

I think that poster was highlighting the fact that any God if She/He existed, would never see evil performed on this earth as is does.

Do you think a God can be male or female out of all the Gods on this earth? Do you think a cow can be sacred for example?

Example, God didn't make Hitler kill all those Jews- Hitler pressed the button in the gas chamber and same goes for anyone else who commits an act of killing/murder/theft etc.. Humans kill for thier own reasons- evil exists because humans have the free choice to do right or wrong.

To your way of thinking then, who made Hitler? People maybe? Why does the murder of Jews upset you so much in your deliverance or protection of a certain people, are you Jewish?

I only ask as its in bad taste to bring such things up in a religious debate as the bible never accounted for the likes of Hitler or hating the Jews, this was about did God exist.

Hence when humans commit evil, and commit major sins, such as murder, mass thievery, and other major acts of evil this has nothing to do with God, it is not God's fault, it is the fault of that human being, God is free from what this evil person has done because God does not sanction nor call for it.

You obviously realise its not a Gods fault so it must be a person or people through greed surely? If a God cannot stop someone committing crimes then surely democracy and man made law stops all that nasty stuff?

God is obsolete in all this as he has no say and isn't proven, surely?

Killing someone without a reason (like self defence/ridding the world of an evil person- i.e. execution- an eye for an eye type of thing) is what I am refering to- fighting to defend oneself from tyrancy/occupation/invasion is not murder(unless innocents are killed for nothing- which EVERYONE should condemn be it commited by christians, atheists, muslims, hindus, tamil tigers etc..

An eye for an eye is an old testament term that would would make the world go blind but you condone war and an eye for an eye on the other hand do you not? What is tyranny in your book that you try to disguise your meaning so much when it suits you over religion?

You seem to think that ridding the world of evil people is okay? Who decides who is evil in your mind?

So don't use 'emotion' to try and justify the existence of God-that is the first fallacy atheists make. Appealing to emotions is not fact finding or using logic.

And believing in a faith is logic? I'm all ears to your explanation.

I dont think anyone should question the existence of god.

I'v had love in good times and also in bad. I've failed some of the bad times which makes me a weak man, but in that time alone i've reflected on my mistakes and put them right.

I think we're selfish because we expect everything to go right and what use would that be when we must go threw the bad times in order to learn?

Dont blame god for the doings of man.

You can never blame someone that doesn't exist for the exploits of man or woman.

Religion is a tool often used to control people and more often than not to segregate them less their Bishops/Imams choose to separate them and religion is only a tool to soothe those who suscribe to it which is a personal choice.

The more people move away from it the better we will all be. :thumbsup:

Its' all down to what each individual has their belief in. Life is intrinsically Yin and Yang, everything, be it material or otherwise has an opposite. What one believes, another won't. If there is a God, ultimately when you take it down to brass tacks, does it matter what a person calls him?, or indeed how that person should choose to believe? I have worshipped because I choose to believe, and I have done so with many a different faith.
Conversely, if a person should choose not to believe, should they be harassed by those that do? All of the evil in the world is borne by religious struggles, where one attempts to proffer forcibly their views on another.

Why Am I Here? - A Fundamental Question
Why am I here on earth? Where did I come from? What am I worth? Do I have any intrinsic value? Do I serve a purpose? These are all fundamental questions. They are life's "big questions." How you answer these questions determines how you see the world and how you treat the world. Because you are a part of the world, how you see the world also determines how you see and treat yourself. So, it's important that we resolve these fundamental questions. And it's important that we discover the honest truth. Wrong answers to important questions aren't helpful.

Where do we begin in our search for the truth? We begin at the beginning. Perhaps the most fundamental question is: does God exist? It's fundamental because our answers to the other "big questions" actually hinge on how we answer this significant question. For example…

Why Am I Here? - The Atheistic Worldview
Why I am here? Well, if God doesn't exist, that means that life must have come about through some natural impersonal, unintelligent, and ultimately purposeless process. That means we're ultimately as purposeless as the very process which brought us into existence. Life's just an accident and so are you. You can find short term reasons for living like you're here because your parents wanted to have children, etc., but ultimately you're just an accident and so are your parents. Life is one big accident. You serve no purpose, you'll cause no lasting effect, and in the grand scheme of things your life is utterly meaningless. Without a Creator in the beginning, there was nobody around to put you here on purpose which means you aren't here for a reason. It's that simple.

As far as asking "what am I worth," without God we don't actually have an intrinsic value, at least not an objective one. Our worth is ultimately subjective. You might think you're worth something but someone else might think you're worthless, and as long as there's no transcendent Assessor to have the final say, no one's ultimately right or wrong. In fact, without God there's really no such thing as right or wrong. John Dewey (1859-1952), the famous 20th century atheist explained, "There is no God and there is no soul. Hence, there are no needs for the props of traditional religion. With dogma and creed excluded, then immutable truth is also dead and buried. There is no room for fixed, natural law or moral absolutes."1

Philosophers generally agree: without an absolute God to make the rules, there is no such thing as a moral absolute; there are only preferences. You don't actually have a right to live; you just prefer not to die. Someone else on the other hand might want to kill you regardless of how you feel about it, and who is to say that they're wrong? In the absence of absolute morality, power reigns supreme; the strong survive and the weak get exploited.

Why Am I Here? - The Theistic Worldview
Why am I here? Well, if God does exist, that means He is ultimate reality. If He created you for a reason, that's ultimately why your here. If you're valuable to Him, that's ultimately what you're worth. What He says is right is absolutely right and what He says is wrong is absolutely wrong. We may be free moral agents with the freedom to make moral decisions, but that doesn't mean we can choose what actually is right or wrong; that just means we're capable of choosing to be right or wrong. God makes the rules. The question is: will He enforce them? Will God ever hold us accountable for our moral decisions? The prevailing instinct among the majority seems to be that, yes, God will hold us accountable. It's as if most people instinctually know that one day they're going to have to explain all the bad things they've done (which of course means that they also instinctually know that there is such a thing as moral absolutes).

The point is, if God really does exist, terms like "justice," "purpose," and "morality" aren't abstract notions: God has a purpose for you (that's why He made you), He's the one who instituted morality, and in the end He'll see that justice prevails. That's a comforting thought to some, but it's terrifying to others.

So don't begin by asking, "Why am I here?" Begin by asking, "Does God exist?" If He doesn't exist there's really no point in asking "why am I here?" - everything is ultimately pointless. And if He does exist, you'll discover your reason for living when you discover who He is.

Realistically, belief in a god is such a personal thing that you're never going to convince someone of the opposite belief, so I don't see the point in trying. I'm never going to convince someone who has strong faith that there is no God. Just not going to happen, and if they're happy, why try?!

For me, it isn't about proving anything doesn't exist. No one has yet prove to me that god does for example, and that's what I rely on. There's no need to dis-prove something until it's proven, or there's strong evidence to suggest it's proven. People believe in horoscopes, but until someone provides me with evidence to suggest they're actually a "genuine" way of seeing the future or whatever, I won't bother myself trying to investigate whether they are.

If someone said they had proof that there was an 8 armed man in the centre of the earth ruling everything, I'd look at the same principle - prove it to me. Until it's proven, I wont believe it. I don't mind if others do though. Their choice.

Problem is, the 'faithful' won't extend you the same courtesy. Xtians get a seat in the House of Lords, and a say in the running of the country and the formulation of laws that directly affect your life, purely because of their supposed belief in a bronze age superstition. Despite that, we're actually quite lucky in this country; many Anglican clerics are virtually indistinguishable from atheists or agnostics in their beliefs.

A core tenet of much of Islam is the establishment of a world-wide Islamic Khaliphate ruled under Sharia. In America, religious people are pushing through legislation to change the definition of science as taught in schools in order to allow creationism into the classroom. (Google the Wedge Strategy; it's a plan by American creationists to subvert science teaching in order to undermine acceptance of evolution). In Rome, Afghanistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, India, Pakistan, Africa, America, etc. state sanctioned statements, or acts, of gross stupidity rooted in religious beliefs are regular things.

Try the Hitchens (http://www.buildupthatwall.com/http://) Challenge:

"Name me an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer.

Now name me an evil action or statement made by a believer because of their faith"

You'll scratch you head over the first one, and maybe you'll come up with something eventually, or maybe not. I've never yet heard a convincing answer.
As soon as you read the second one an example will spring to mind, followed by a dozen more within seconds.

I dont think anyone should question the existence of god.


Everyone should question the existence of god. A universe with a god is a very different universe from one without.

In a universe with a god, assuming the xtians are right, if you don't accept zombie jesus you'll burn in hell for eternity and if your life on this world stinks, you'll live forever in heaven, praising god, etc. as long as you believe some bronze age myths. In a universe without that god, you only get this life and you'd better make the best of it that you can. Don't waste time praying when you could be doing something useful for yourself or others, don't live your life like it's the tedious waiting room for a journey of eternal bliss.

Mother Theresa believed that poverty and suffering in this life brought eternal salvation in the next, so she deliberately allowed those she 'saved' to suffer and die. Why people revere her so much is beyond me...don't make the same mistake!

Theresa's own words on poverty proved that her intention was not to help people. In a 1981 press conference in she was asked: "Do you teach the poor to endure their lot?"
She replied: "I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people."

I have asked and answered those questions, thanks.

You never answered what is imiginary or what is passed onto you and what you believe in yourself as a result of your experiences. which is the question I asked.

I don't go to church these days except for weddings and funerals, if that's what you mean.

I don't mean anything, I merely asked you the question above and I would hope for some feedback if you ever expect some from me in the future.

"Name me an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer.

God willing I'll pass through the gates of heaven.

Didn't really need much thought on that one.

You never answered what is imiginary or what is passed onto you and what you believe in yourself as a result of your experiences. which is the question I asked.

Well for one thing I feel you're using the term imaginary in a perjorative fashion and for another when I said 'I have asked and answered those questions' I meant that I have asked and answered them of myself. I choose not to share my feelings about it on here.
I don't mean anything, I merely asked you the question above and I would hope for some feedback if you ever expect some from me in the future.
That's fine with me.

I wonder what God's job description would look like. It would have to make reference to 'moving in mysterious ways.' Is He is on a 'fixed term contract' and what would happen to us if he retired?

I wonder what does He do with His leisure time. He could visit Earth as a mystery shopper, but does being omnipotent takes some of the fun away? Perhaps he is busy creating other universes, hence the lack of plague, pestilance, smiting etc over the last couple of millennia. However he could have sub-contracted the operation to someone in his absence.

I really do feel that God has been neglecting things of late, which may not be a bad thing as He was responsible for the slaughter of a good few million people. I also think He enjoys the controversy He causes. Otherwise He would have done something to silence the doubters and worshipers of false idols.

He made us in His image but do we have the same emotional capacity as God? If so, he must get upset when all the nice fluffy animals get drowned in floods and he must get angry with all the nasty terrorists. He sent two bears to kill some children just for insulting a bald man. His job script really should spell out the need for consistency, particularly regarding equality of opportunity. God doesn't seem to be on record as promoting the rights of Gays or Women.

He built a world that is 3/4 sea and then designed us to live on land, much of which looks pretty but is uninhabitable. He then let the world become over populated, banned birth control and didn't supply enough raw materials, particularly crude oil (Of course He may well know that we are going to invent the 'anti gravity drive in 2030, so it won't be an issue).

Could it be that God told us he is omnipotent but still has some way to go? I feel that my faith is being tested and I am sorry but I want some proof that He is still up to the job or at least meets the minimum person specification. What if He has given up on the job and not told anyone? Who is He accountable to?

I think that poster was highlighting the fact that any God if She/He existed, would never see evil performed on this earth as is does.

Why? Yiu decide what to do- you have a choice. God is not responsible for the actions of humans.

Do you think a God can be male or female out of all the Gods on this earth? Do you think a cow can be sacred for example?

Maybe you can ask that to a hindu...



To your way of thinking then, who made Hitler? People maybe? Why does the murder of Jews upset you so much in your deliverance or protection of a certain people, are you Jewish?

Same point as above- the actions of men (evil) are to them not God. I used Hitler as an example but I can use any example where on has commited evil- it happens around the world. Power and Greed drives it.[/COLOR]


You obviously realise its not a Gods fault so it must be a person or people through greed surely? If a God cannot stop someone committing crimes then surely democracy and man made law stops all that nasty stuff?

God is obsolete in all this as he has no say and isn't proven, surely?

Why does God need to stop it? At end of the day, God knows you are going to die and He has all the time in the world...:D



An eye for an eye is an old testament term that would would make the world go blind but you condone war and an eye for an eye on the other hand do you not? What is tyranny in your book that you try to disguise your meaning so much when it suits you over religion?

You seem to think that ridding the world of evil people is okay? Who decides who is evil in your mind?

I believe in self defence- as I am sure you do. I do not believe in injustice and murder, tyrancy, prejudism etc. I believe in capital punishment- I believe that when there is irrefutable evidence of someones guilt of a serious crime against humanity, then I stand for the DP.


And believing in a faith is logic? I'm all ears to your explanation.

Logic when you look at it factually and desist on using emotion and personal 'worldviews' of an religion.

It goes without saying that absolutely nothing can be proved, confirmed or established through emotion- but by logically and rationally looking at facts.

Anyway, the belief in a God or no God is personal to an individual. I think someone mentioned that earlier and until someone comes to me and PROVES with EVIDENCE that God does not EXIST- using logic and rational, giving 'evidence to support their view (as you can't prove a negative but you can use 'evidence to support an idea/views- which no atheist has EVER done)..until then I will continue believing in God.:thumbsup:

God willing I'll pass through the gates of heaven.

Didn't really need much thought on that one. The lack of thought shows. How is that an ethical statement?

Perhaps I should help you out: "It's wrong to hurt people unnecessarily" is an ethical statement.

"God willing I'll pass through the gates of heaven" is a faith statement.

He built a world that is 3/4 sea and then designed us to live on land, much of which looks pretty but is uninhabitable. He then let the world become over populated, banned birth control and didn't supply enough raw materials, particularly crude oil (Of course He may well know that we are going to invent the 'anti gravity drive in 2030, so it won't be an issue).
?

As any fule no, we don't need to look after the earth or conserve its resources because Jebus is coming back soon! (http://www.raptureready.com/)

Logic when you look at it factually and desist on using emotion and personal 'worldviews' of an religion.

It goes without saying that absolutely nothing can be proved, confirmed or established through emotion- but by logically and rationally looking at facts.

Anyway, the belief in a God or no God is personal to an individual. I think someone mentioned that earlier and until someone comes to me and PROVES with EVIDENCE that God does not EXIST- using logic and rational, giving 'evidence to support their view (as you can't prove a negative but you can use 'evidence to support an idea/views- which no atheist has EVER done)..until then I will continue believing in God.:thumbsup:

Ok, we can't really have this discussion with out knowing precisely what you do believe, so please tell us.

Which xtian denomination do you belong to? What do you actually believe? Are there any bits of the bible or your church's dogma you don't believe? If so, why?

I wonder what God's job description would look like. It would have to make reference to 'moving in mysterious ways.' Is He is on a 'fixed term contract' and what would happen to us if he retired?

Which one would you like to choose?

King of Kings,
Lord of Lords,
Soveriegn,
Creator,
I Am.

Just to name a few.

I wonder what does He do with His leisure time. He could visit Earth as a mystery shopper, but does being omnipotent takes some of the fun away? Perhaps he is busy creating other universes, hence the lack of plague, pestilance, smiting etc over the last couple of millennia. However he could have sub-contracted the operation to someone in his absence.

Pig Flu, Tsunami's, Earth Quakes.
It was only two years ago when Sheffield flooded, was this down to lack of decent drainage or an act of God?
Insurance companies like to use the latter, no matter if they are athiests or not enforcing such policies, ironic huh.

I really do feel that God has been neglecting things of late, which may not be a bad thing as He was responsible for the slaughter of a good few million people. I also think He enjoys the controversy He causes. Otherwise He would have done something to silence the doubters and worshipers of false idols.

Gods intentions are written in revelations.

Can't really be bothered to post in repsonse to the rest of your post, good luck with holding onto your faith though mate.

Listen bro, Halibut's completely right in this case. You have proved nothing with your little example, you cannot prove god doesn't exist. Well perhaps you can, but you certainly have not done so here on this thread.

Oh, and look at my posting history if you like, you'll find I'm one of the more ardent advocates of atheism on this forum. You're making us look bad!:)

No im not.

The lack of thought shows. How is that an ethical statement?

Its my morality and performance and the will of God that may ensure passage.

Not much for lack of thought, not much to think about on it, would you rather me go into the whole morality and performance issue when there is no need?
And if so would you prefer me to give a statement that applies to your conditions?

And i have proof!Trying to prove a negative is exceedingly far harder than proving a positive. As a demonstration I'll highlight this segment of the entry in skepticwiki to give you an idea.

http://skepticwiki.org/index.php/%22You_Can%27t_Prove_a_Negative%22

In general, statements of the form "X exists" are (if true), easy to prove. One simply shows an example of X as a proof. For example, I can prove a claim that "White swans exist" by exhibiting a normal (European) swan. I can similarly prove that "black swans exist" by exhibiting an Australian one.

On the other hand, it is in theory impossible to prove beyond question that "No green swans exist" (or more generally any statement of the form "No X exists"). I can show cages and cages full of five thousand swans, all of which are white and black, but what about the five thousand and first? In order to prove that no green swans exist, I would need to produce and examine every swan in existence, including swans on unexplored Pacific islands and even unknown planets in distant galaxies.

Sir Karl Popper discussed this problem under the name of "Falsifiability," the property of a theory to be able to be dis-proven (which of course, is not the same as it being dis-proven). Under his theories, "science" can only address issues which are falsifiable. A key characteristic of many pseudo-sciences are that they make claims that cannot be dis-proven or even critically examined in the sense defined above.

Well for one thing I feel you're using the term imaginary in a perjorative fashion and for another when I said 'I have asked and answered those questions' I meant that I have asked and answered them of myself. I choose not to share my feelings about it on here.

That's fine with me.

I asked you a question, are you religious or do you not have a religion?

Yes or no and if yes, which religion do you practice?

Surely you can't be ashamed about your religion or even if you are atheist?

If you can't admit a religion because you are ashamed of it then what does that say about your religion and how you see it yourself? More importantly, how do you see yourself?

Why on earth can't you say who you are?

Its my morality and performance and the will of God that may ensure passage.

Not much for lack of thought, not much to think about on it, would you rather me go into the whole morality and performance issue when there is no need?
And if so would you prefer me to give a statement that applies to your conditions?

Do you believe that god would exclude a morally good atheist?

I asked you a question, are you religious or do you not have a religion?

Yes or no and if yes, which religion do you practice?

Surely you can't be ashamed about your religion or even if you are atheist?

If you can't admit a religion because you are ashamed of it then what does that say about your religion and how you see it yourself? More importantly, how do you see yourself?

Why on earth can't you say who you are? Cant the man be a deist (im guessing thats what he sees himself as?) and be able to keep that fact private?

and




Pot, kettle?

Not at all. This halibutt character only came onto this thread to be insulting and was mearly returning the favour.

Not at all. This halibutt character only came onto this thread to be insulting and was mearly returning the favour.Stop being a numpty.:P

Do you believe that god would exclude a morally good atheist?

I believe that God will make his own judgements.
I won't pretend that I can predict what his judgements will be.

I believe that God will make his own judgements.
I won't pretend that I can predict what his judgements will be.

So it wasn't an ethical statement, along the lines of "Do unto others...", it was just a rather speculative faith statement. Anything else to add?;)

;4946412']Stop being a numpty.:P

Is this all you people do here?
Insult?!?!

I would explain but you probably wouldn't get it....oh, alright, go on then.....

The fact that god didn't answer your prayers could be explained by any number of reasons other than that he doesn't exist -

a) He exists but doesn't like you
b) He'll answer it next year
c) He exists but is too busy at the moment
d) He exists but chooses not to answer for his own good reasons

You get the idea. You can't disprove God any more than I or anyone else can prove him. It's a matter of faith. You don't have any, simple as that.
No need to get the hump on, really.

yeah i agree with that, thats why some people rant about stuff....instead of sitting down and thinking about it rationally and logically.
they see things in pure black and white, either this or that......forgetting about all the shades of grey in between.

i dont believe theres a god......but then i cant prove he doesnt exist, similer to those who cant prove he exists.
the only time we'll find out for sure is when we pop it, then we'll find out whos wasted their lives

I believe that God will make his own judgements.
I won't pretend that I can predict what his judgements will be.When it comes to believe i tend to stick with what i can gain knowledge of rather than what many pretend to be able to know.

Is this all you people do here?
Insult?!?!Nope... i responded to your original post and how silly it was before I insulted you! :hihi:

A plane load of Atheist at 30,000feet.
Suddenly the Captain informs them both engines have failed and an emergency ditch in the sea was inevitable.

I wander how many of the Atheist would bow their heads and secretly pray to God for help...

HUM! Just a thought.

A plane load of Atheist at 30,000feet.
Suddenly the Captain informs them both engines have failed and an emergency ditch in the sea was inevitable.

I wander how many of the Atheist would bow their heads and secretly pray to God for help...

HUM! Just a thought.Maybe you should watch this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWhmOwGqcMQ

theres much more proof that god doesnt exist...... use ur head

A plane load of Atheist at 30,000feet.
Suddenly the Captain informs them both engines have failed and an emergency ditch in the sea was inevitable.

I wander how many of the Atheist would bow their heads and secretly pray to God for help...

HUM! Just a thought.

Is this an argument for anything?

Presumably, in similar circumstances, ex-Hindus might sneak a secret prayer to Ganesh, ex-Muslims to Allah, ex-Shintos to their ancestors...what evidence does that offer for the existence of any of these deities? People will clutch at straws when their life is threatened.

I was working abroad a few years ago, and a mortar went off about 50 metres away. The blast kocked me off my feet, I shouted something like: "jesus ***ing christ" as i hit the deck. Does that make me a closet xtian?

theres much more proof that god doesnt exist...... use ur headMaybe you should use yours? If there was any proof that god didnt exist there wouldn't be any theists?...

;4946463']Maybe you should use yours? If there was any proof that god didnt exist there wouldn't be any theists?...
There's overwhelming evidence that the universe is approx. 14 billion years old, the earth approx. 4.5 billion years old and evolution is true, yet there are plenty of young earth creationists.

;4946431']Nope... i responded to your original post and how silly it was before I insulted you! :hihi:

Thats ok then:hihi:

There's overwhelming evidence that the universe is approx. 14 billion years old, the earth approx. 4.5 billion years old and evolution is true, yet there are plenty of young earth creationists.Evidence is very heavily suggestive of truth and fact. The use of the word proof whilst strictly mathematical term to me means absolute proof positive.

I was working abroad a few years ago, and a mortar went off about 50 metres away. The blast kocked me off my feet, I shouted something like: "jesus ***ing christ" as i hit the deck. Does that make me a closet xtian?

What's an xtian?

What's an xtian?Christian? A bit like xmas stands for christmas? I would have thought that was easy enough to work out?:confused:

So it wasn't an ethical statement, along the lines of "Do unto others...", it was just a rather speculative faith statement. Anything else to add?;)

How do you come to that conclusion from me not wanting to blaspheme by attempting to predict what God's judgements will be.

I could argue for and against athiests gaining entrance to heaven, you asked for a statement based on ethics or performance that an athiest cannot make.

I gave you one, and athiest cannot state that God willing they will make it passed the gates of heaven, based on their morality or perfomance because they do not believe in God.

It doesn't take much thinking about, but then to ask me a specific question about my own personal belief and try to use it as a tool to negate my answer to your question, is illogical.

As any fule no, we don't need to look after the earth or conserve its resources because Jebus is coming back soon! (http://www.raptureready.com/)

I got banned from this website twice! Damn fundies (http://www.fstdt.com/fundies/latestcomments.aspx?archive=1).

I gave you one, and athiest cannot state that God willing they will make it passed the gates of heaven, based on their morality or perfomance because they do not believe in God. Surely you cannot make such a statement either since such a question is impossible to answer until after you die? Unless you can get the internet in heaven of course??:hihi:

;4946481']Christian? A bit like xmas stands for christmas? I would have thought that was easy enough to work out?:confused:

I knew the answer really Matt - was hoping to engage EbonyBranch in a discussion about it is all - it strikes me as being a rather childlike attempt to be disrespectful toward other people's beliefs and in any event doesn't sound phonetically anything like the word it's supposed to represent. If you were to say it aloud it'd be something like 'extian' which doesn't make a deal of sense, in the same that saying 'exmas' cards doesn't make sense.

it strikes me as being a rather childlike attempt to be disrespectful toward other people's beliefs

My belief is god does not exist.

Doesn't proove anything at all. You seem to be lacking in thinking skills.


Also my belief the you are a hypocryte!

My belief is god does not exist.


I know, we've already established that.
Also my belief the you are a hypocryte!
Go on then MrEngland, since you're so keen to talk about me, why am I a hypocrite?

;4946463']Maybe you should use yours? If there was any proof that god didnt exist there wouldn't be any theists?...

lol maybe you should use yours, cause the only evidence that god exists is a book.... lol so yeah there is much more evidence that he doesnt evidence so why dont you stop being so ignorant, i dint say he dint exist im just sayin theres more evidence he doesnt.

theres much more proof that god doesnt exist...... use ur head There is no proof that any gods don't exist. However, the evidence that believers put forward to support their beliefs is never sound enough to do the job, so it is reasonable to assume that there are no gods.

I'd love to see sound, verifiable evidence for the existence of anything supernatural, including a deity, but such evidence has never been produced by anyone. Therefore, the most reasonable view is that the supernatural does not exist.

lol maybe you should use yours, cause the only evidence that god exists is a book.... lol so yeah there is much more evidence that he doesnt evidence so why dont you stop being so ignorant, i dint say he dint exist im just sayin theres more evidence he doesnt.Or to be more accurate.... there's a LACK of evidence that god exists. There's a difference between the two that you seem to have trouble comprehending. You should maybe scroll up and read my post on the difficulties of proving a negative. And maybe invest in a spell check dictionary for your browser?

;4946501']Surely you cannot make such a statement either since such a question is impossible to answer until after you die? Unless you can get the internet in heaven of course??:hihi:

Why not?
As I understand it, God will judge me when I die, my ethics and performance may grant me passage.
So God willing I'll pass the gates of heaven.

I don't have to wait until I die to make a statement.

;4946529']Or to be more accurate.... there's a LACK of evidence that god exists. There's a difference between the two that you seem to have trouble comprehending. You should maybe scroll up and read my post on the difficulties of proving a negative. And maybe invest in a spell check dictionary for your browser?

lol actually all this religion stuff is giving me ideas. i reckon i should start writing a book about something supernatural like... a golden set of staires or somet. then maybe ill have changed the world in a few hundred years what do you think?

lol maybe you should use yours, cause the only evidence that god exists is a book.... lol so yeah there is much more evidence that he doesnt evidence so why dont you stop being so ignorant, i dint say he dint exist im just sayin theres more evidence he doesnt.

Where I would like to see such evidence.

Anyway i hope im not being offensive or anything im just saying what i think since theres a thread bout it

How do you come to that conclusion from me not wanting to blaspheme by attempting to predict what God's judgements will be.

I could argue for and against athiests gaining entrance to heaven, you asked for a statement based on ethics or performance that an athiest cannot make.

I gave you one, and athiest cannot state that God willing they will make it passed the gates of heaven, based on their morality or perfomance because they do not believe in God.

It doesn't take much thinking about, but then to ask me a specific question about my own personal belief and try to use it as a tool to negate my answer to your question, is illogical.

Yes, but "Godwilling I'll go to heaven" or whatever it was is not an ethical statement. An ethical statement, that is, a statement of ethics, is along the lines of "It's wrong to hurt the innocent" or "Abortion is wrong" etc. Yours was, at best, a theological statement.

Try this analogy: If I'd asked for an ethical statement that an astrologer could make that an non-believer in astrology couldn't make, "Jupiter is ascendent, therefore I'll have a good day" would not satisfy the request.

Anyway i hope im not being offensive or anything im just saying what i think since theres a thread bout itYou should learn what the term evidence means before using it. :)

;4946576']You should learn what the term evidence means before using it. :)

lol i know wot the term evidence meens

What's an xtian?

xtian (http://www.faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ/scjp-admin/section-14.html)

Yes, but "Godwilling I'll go to heaven" or whatever it was is not an ethical statement. An ethical statement, that is, a statement of ethics, is along the lines of "It's wrong to hurt the innocent" or "Abortion is wrong" etc. Yours was, at best, a theological statement.

Try this analogy: If I'd asked for an ethical statement that an astrologer could make that an non-believer in astrology couldn't make, "Jupiter is ascendent, therefore I'll have a good day" would not satisfy the request.

So would you prefer me to phrase it like this.

Its wrong to deny God.

One that an athiest cannot make, but in my eyes the only difference between the above statement and the original one I posted is that the original one includes the above statement as well as every other ethical statement.
But for your benefit I've narrowed it down to just the one statement, even though this one statement does not include all the other statements that can be claimed within the 'God willing I'll go to heaven".

God DOES exist - I prayed that I would wake up this morning and guess what I did :o Ergo (by your logic anyway) there must be a god

:roll:

Why not?
As I understand it, God will judge me when I die, my ethics and performance may grant me passage.
So God willing I'll pass the gates of heaven.

I don't have to wait until I die to make a statement.

I asked: "Name me an ethical statement made or action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer.

Now name me an evil action or statement made by a believer because of their faith"

You just expressed your belief that, if you're good enough, god might let you into heaven. That's not an ethical statement, it's a theological statement.

I might make the ethical statement that: "It's wrong to steal" and then we can argue about whether that statement holds true in every situation (is it wrong to steal from a rich, selfish person to feed a starving child, etc.) and whether an atheist and a theist have equal access to that ethical statement (if your god says it's wrong to steal, can stealing ever be justified, etc.).

I notice you've ignored the second part of the challenge, which to my mind is the more ...er...challenging bit.

*awaits mods to lock the thread*

So would you prefer me to phrase it like this.

Its wrong to deny God.

One that an athiest cannot make, but in my eyes the only difference between the above statement and the original one I posted is that the original one includes the above statement as well as every other ethical statement.
But for your benefit I've narrowed it down to just the one statement, even though this one statement does not include all the other statements that can be claimed within the 'God willing I'll go to heaven".

I'm afraid there are plenty of atheists who would agree with your statement! There are more 'believers-in-belief' than just plain believers. The set of 'Believers-in-belief' includes all believers plus those who don't themselves believe, but do think that belief is a useful tool to keep the proles in check, or acts as a crutch to comfort the infirm or poor, or provides a good moral framework for believers. There are far too many atheists who would agree that it is wrong to challenge anyone's belief in god, for all kinds of reasons.

Try again!

Why not?
As I understand it, God will judge me when I die, my ethics and performance may grant me passage.
So God willing I'll pass the gates of heaven.

I don't have to wait until I die to make a statement.

By your criteria, there are many millions of people going to Hell simply because they aren't Christians despite how 'good' they might have been. Such a loving God is yours.

By your criteria, there are many millions of people going to Hell simply because they aren't Christians despite how 'good' they might have been. Such a loving God is yours.

lol nice one

Religion is about choice. If it's your choice to believe in God, that's great! If it's your choice not to believe in God, then that's great too!!

It's my choice to have Tuna, Cheese, and Onion on a sandwich, it might not be yours, you might like Ham & Egg, does it make us different people?

I think that sums it all up

Religion is about choice. If it's your choice to believe in God, that's great! If it's your choice not to believe in God, then that's great too!!

It's my choice to have Tuna, Cheese, and Onion on a sandwich, it might not be yours, you might like Ham & Egg, does it make us different people?

I think that sums it all up

You should be ashamed of yourself, all that on one sandwich :hihi:

I know, we've already established that.

Go on then MrEngland, since you're so keen to talk about me, why am I a hypocrite?

Ive no idea why you are a hypocryte. Maybe you were abused as a child or somthing but if you look at my post again youll see i showed how you were being hypocrytical with the quoyed posts.:)

You should be ashamed of yourself, all that on one sandwich :hihi:

You should try it sometime, you'll never look back...:hihi:

Ive no idea why you are a hypocryte. Maybe you were abused as a child or somthing but if you look at my post again youll see i showed how you were being hypocrytical with the quoyed posts.:)

AKA, 'I made it up and there's no evidence.' Good lad! Keep it up!

By your criteria, there are many millions of people going to Hell simply because they aren't Christians despite how 'good' they might have been. Such a loving God is yours.

Did I set any criteria?

I think you'll find I specified I am not going to predict who is and is not going to hell, its not for me to make such decisions, or set such criteria's.

My bold = please point me to where I set that as my criteria.
I think you will find that I can find arguments for and against using scripture where christians and none christians alike have a chance of entering heaven.

Please don't suggest I have said something that I have not, its deceitful.

Religion is about choice. If it's your choice to believe in God, that's great! If it's your choice not to believe in God, then that's great too!!

It's my choice to have Tuna, Cheese, and Onion on a sandwich, it might not be yours, you might like Ham & Egg, does it make us different people?

I think that sums it all up

If you were told from birth that tuna is bad and only heathens eat it and you should eat raw spinach if you want to be accepted by the nice people, then your analogy works a little better.

Good day Mr. England.

I was just wondering, do you still consider what you posted on this thread last night to be proof of the non-existence of god?

If so what do you think of the fact that only 1 person on the forum has agreed with you?

You can't even get the other atheists to agree with you let alone anyone of faith!

AKA, 'I made it up and there's no evidence.' Good lad! Keep it up!

You really have just shown yourself up with that post:hihi:
Go back to the start of the thread an re-read it all.
Then come back when you have something less moronic to say.
I wont hold my breath though:thumbsup:

So would you prefer me to phrase it like this.

Its wrong to deny God.

One that an athiest cannot make, but in my eyes the only difference between the above statement and the original one I posted is that the original one includes the above statement as well as every other ethical statement.
But for your benefit I've narrowed it down to just the one statement, even though this one statement does not include all the other statements that can be claimed within the 'God willing I'll go to heaven".

Digsy you've not provided an ethical statement I'm afraid.

"God willing I'll pass through the gates of heaven" Is an assertion about a reality. You are saying 'if I do all the stuff that God wants I'll get to go to heaven' This is not a statement about ethics.

To find the ethical statement within you need to fish a little bit. You get to 'I need to behave like this in order to match God's criteria', which eventually leads you to 'I should follow the ethical code of x' where x is whatever particular branch of morality you choose.

So you're statement boils down to many different ethical statements, things like 'thou shall not steal' and 'do unto others...' These are ethical statements.

If you were told from birth that tuna is bad and only heathens eat it and you should eat raw spinach if you want to be accepted by the nice people, then your analogy works a little better.

But I am Master of my own choices, and as such will follow my own path however I choose to believe. If I was told that from birth, I would still try tuna. You have to find what you like and stick with it for as long as you want. That you may eat spinach because of your upbringing is of no consequence to me. I'd still be happy to chew the fat with you whatever your choice of food. That's where the world is going wrong.

Live and let live.

You really have just shown yourself up with that post:hihi:
Go back to the start of the thread an re-read it all.
Then come back when you have something less moronic to say.
I wont hold my breath though:thumbsup:

Oh please do. It would be such fun to watch! ;)

Good day Mr. England.

I was just wondering, do you still consider what you posted on this thread last night to be proof of the non-existence of god?

If so what do you think of the fact that only 1 person on the forum has agreed with you?

You can't even get the other atheists to agree with you let alone anyone of faith!

Good day to you too.
The point everyone seems to be missing is im not expecting everyone or infact anyone to agree with me. Im just sharing my thoughts with the forum.
I dont for a minute think what ive put is going to make anyone change their mind.

Oh please do. It would be such fun to watch! ;)

You first deary.:thumbsup:

God willing I'll pass through the gates of heaven.. I notice you don't specify which direction you'll be heading!

Good day to you too.
The point everyone seems to be missing is im not expecting everyone or infact anyone to agree with me. Im just sharing my thoughts with the forum.
I dont for a minute think what ive put is going to make anyone change their mind.

OK then, what did you hope to achieve by posting your 'proof' then?

Public ridicule?

OK then, what did you hope to achieve by posting your 'proof' then?

Public ridicule?

I'm not sure what your problem with this is, flamingjimmy. The op's logic was deeply flawed, but his post has sparked an interesting discussion.

Do aethiests exist then?

OK then, what did you hope to achieve by posting your 'proof' then?

Public ridicule?

Only from the narrow minded god bothers who hate the thought that anyone can possible suggest there is no god.
I still dont see anyone giving any proof that there IS a god so ridicule away mate. Im not the one who believes in an imaginary man in space with absoloutly zero proof. Unless someone would care to furnish me with some.
No?
Didnt think so.:suspect:

I'm not sure what your problem with this is, flamingjimmy. The op's logic was deeply flawed, but his post has sparked an interesting discussion.

Can i ask why you say my logic is flawed?
Is it any more flawed than those that actualy believe in god with nothing to back it up? Not looking for a row. Its a genuine question:)

By your criteria, there are many millions of people going to Hell simply because they aren't Christians despite how 'good' they might have been. Such a loving God is yours.

Ooh ooh I know this one! Apparently, the thinking is that, as the Bible includes references to the old patriarchs of Israel being in heaven, then yhvh makes allowances for this kind of thing. You see Moses, Abraham, etc. could not have accepted Christ because they died hundreds, if not thousands, of years before his birth. So, the theological thinking holds that yhvh must have deemed them saved despite their ignorance of the messiah, and he will apply similar criteria to those who die without hearing the 'good news'.

Also, there are other xtians who hold that yhvh will let everyone into heaven eventually, with those who die 'saved' at the front of the queue and those who die unsaved at the back (after they've spent a few millennia in hell repenting, or something).

Only from the narrow minded god bothers who hate the thought that anyone can possible suggest there is no god.Not from atheists too then, fair enough.
I still dont see anyone giving any proof that there IS a god so ridicule away mate. Im not the one who believes in an imaginary man in space with absoloutly zero proof. Unless someone would care to furnish me with some.
No?
Didnt think so.:suspect:

In that case perhaps starting a thread challenging theists to do so would've been more appropriate.

Not from atheists too then, fair enough.

In that case perhaps starting a thread challenging theists to do so would've been more appropriate.

Maybe so.
Still waiting for the proof though. If im so wrong and my thinking is so flawed how come no one has offered me the proof of a god. That would shut me up and make me look very silly.
So hows about that proof then?

I'm not sure what your problem with this is, flamingjimmy. The op's logic was deeply flawed, but his post has sparked an interesting discussion.

Whilst I enjoy discussing religion as much as the next guy, and I do miss these threads, they've been a bit rare of late, my problem was with the silly way in which the OP went about it.

Still, by all means, let's discuss away, I missed when the theists turned up earlier, c'mon guys come back I'm supposed to be on EbonyBranch's team!

I notice you don't specify which direction you'll be heading!

I notice your notice, and I wouldn't specify which way I'm heading as it would be a blaspheme to do so.

The one thing that I noticed is that athiests like to bitch at people who have faith.

You hardly ever see an athiest bitching at the Jedi's saying yoda don't exist.

Maybe so.
Still waiting for the proof though. If im so wrong and my thinking is so flawed how come no one has offered me the proof of a god. That would shut me up and make me look very silly.
So hows about that proof then?

As I've already told you I'm an atheist so If I had proof that god existed as well then I'd be a very confused young man now wouldn't I?!

You hardly ever see an athiest bitching at the Jedi's saying yoda don't exist.?!? Can you expand on this? Or was it just a joke? in which case I'm still confused!

Can i ask why you say my logic is flawed?
Is it any more flawed than those that actualy believe in god with nothing to back it up? Not looking for a row. Its a genuine question:)

No worries mate. Superficially, your logic is fine. xtians believe in a god who answers prayers, you prayed, your prayer wasn't answered, therefore there is no god. Trouble is, xtians have spent thousands of years dreaming up reasons why their god doesn't answer prayers.

In your case, they might include:

1. you don't believe in god, so he won't listen to you until you do
2. god only answers prayers that match his plan for the salvation of humanity
3. who are you to test god, anyway?
4. etc., etc.

It was a good starting point, but not strong enough. Maybe 'deeply flawed' was a bit unfair, sorry.

As I've already told you I'm an atheist so If I had proof that god existed as well then I'd be a very confused young man now wouldn't I?!

The invitation to supply me proof wasnt exclusive to you. I realise you must think the whole world revolves around you but im sorry to have to say it doesnt.

I notice your notice, and I wouldn't specify which way I'm heading as it would be a blaspheme to do so.

The one thing that I noticed is that athiests like to bitch at people who have faith.

You hardly ever see an athiest bitching at the Jedi's saying yoda don't exist.

The day we get a Jedi master in the House of Lords or they try to introduce midichlorians into biology lessons, I'll start bitchin'!

?!? Can you expand on this? Or was it just a joke? in which case I'm still confused!

If you want, here is a link (http://www.jedichurch.org/) to the Jedi Religion, based on a fictional book and a few movies.

I think I'll rephrase my analogy and say you don't find many athiests disputing the Jedi Force.

Rarely hear athiests saying things like, prove the force is within me.

But yeah its an ironic joke.

No worries mate. Superficially, your logic is fine. xtians believe in a god who answers prayers, you prayed, your prayer wasn't answered, therefore there is no god. Trouble is, xtians have spent thousands of years dreaming up reasons why their god doesn't answer prayers.

In your case, they might include:

1. you don't believe in god, so he won't listen to you until you do
2. god only answers prayers that match his plan for the salvation of humanity
3. who are you to test god, anyway?
4. etc., etc.

It was a good starting point, but not strong enough. Maybe 'deeply flawed' was a bit unfair, sorry.
No need to appologise mate and thanks for the explantion. I just wish some others on here could be so reasonable.
Thanks:):)

The invitation to supply me proof wasnt exclusive to you. I realise you must think the whole world revolves around you but im sorry to have to say it doesnt.

Forgive me, it was the part where a quote from me just preceded it that threw me off.

Forgive me, it was the part where a quote from me just preceded it that threw me off.

Why do you ask for forgiveness from an athiest.
To forgive someone was blaspheme, until Jesus taught Christians how to forgive.
And is a theologists tool for harmony.

Forgive me, it was the part where a quote from me just preceded it that threw me off.

No, no, no. Forgive I didnt realise you were so easily confused.

Last night i prayed for an end to famine and i also asked god to get rid of all types of cancer.
I have no vested interest and it was a totaly selfless act but guess what.
He didnt do ****.

Excuse me for not reading the whole thread.

So you're saying that just because God didn't do what you wanted then he doesn't exist?

Forgive me, it was the part where a quote from me just preceded it that threw me off.
Wish you two would just get a room already! This 'will they. won't they' Mulder-and-Scully shtick is getting old!:)

I knew the answer really Matt - was hoping Wto engage EbonyBranch in a discussion about it is all - it strikes me as being a rather childlike attempt to be disrespectful toward other people's beliefs and in any event doesn't sound phonetically anything like the word it's supposed to represent. If you were to say it aloud it'd be something like 'extian' which doesn't make a deal of sense, in the same that saying 'exmas' cards doesn't make sense.

If you were absolutely sure of the answer then why would you question it unless you had an argument before the poster disappeared?

Which you didn't think would happen.

Excuse me for not reading the whole thread.

So you're saying that just because God didn't do what you wanted then he doesn't exist?

Thats right. If id been asking for material gain i could understand he not answering me. But i didnt. I was totaly selfless and thinking of others. He still didnt answer though.

Thats right. If id been asking for material gain i could understand he not answering me. But i didnt. I was totaly selfless and thinking of others. He still didnt answer though.

How do you know that he hasn't given the information on how to end cancer and famine to someone being born today, to answer your prayers?

Excuse me for not reading the whole thread.

So you're saying that just because God didn't do what you wanted then he doesn't exist?

No, you've missed a bit. It's Yoda who doesn't exist. I think Klingons might be real, though...

How do you know that he hasn't given the information on how to end cancer and famine to someone being born today, to answer your prayers?

Why wouldd he do that?
Surely he has the power to just end it himself. Think of all the people who would needlessly die whislt waiting for this saviour to grow up.

Why wouldd he do that?
Surely he has the power to just end it himself. Think of all the people who would needlessly die whislt waiting for this saviour to grow up.

The more pertinent question would be if he had the power to end cancer and famine why create it in the first place? Or maybe the problems of cancer and famine may be man made ones and as such we have to find the answers our selves.

I suspect that one of the reasons that he didn't answer your prayers was that you don't believe in him anyway.