thought this would interest people who say the migrant crimewave is a myth.

www.thestar.co.uk/headlines/migrant-crime-toll-rising.5172562.jp


the cost to the police force is massive.

Strange how the article in The Star doesn't mention any numbers to back up this claim? Only that its takes three times as long to book non-English speaking prisoners in and that staff are 'stretched' :suspect:

Well, of course, the whole story COULD be false but one aspect of it seems obviously true ; to wit :- It 's only common sense, surely, to see that people who have no command of English, or very little, might well benefit from having an interpreter. Lo & behold, interpreters cost money ! Also, it 's highly probable that because immigrants are disproportionally young males, they will tend to committ more crimes than a cross-section of the population. It 's the same with our own indigenous villains, isn 't it ? Whatever the whys and wherefores it seems pretty clear that immigration, in this particular case, costs the U.K. quite a lot of money and the O.P., quite rightly, suggests that this is often denied by many people. I wonder why ?

And presumably all we native Brits are being right little goody-goodies, and standing by to act as Batman? Crime has gone up in toto,so it seems a little unnecessary to highlight only one area. Incidentally, the individual who offered extreme violence because of something my learner driver did yesterday was very obviously British, as was the guy who broke in to my car twice.

Will do the interpretation industry good though, which has to be a plus in these hard times :hihi:

Where does it say there's a migrant crimewave? It just says it's costing more to process migrant offenders.

Strange how the article in The Star doesn't mention any numbers to back up this claim? Only that its takes three times as long to book non-English speaking prisoners in and that staff are 'stretched'

Then its obviously a false story, no base in fact then, dreamed up by the far right,as ever to make cheeky mischief, and rouse the West side living liberals on here.

And presumably all we native Brits are being right little goody-goodies, and standing by to act as Batman? Crime has gone up in toto,so it seems a little unnecessary to highlight only one area. Incidentally, the individual who offered extreme violence because of something my learner driver did yesterday was very obviously British, as was the guy who broke in to my car twice.
that's the point we have our own criminals without importing any more :rolleyes:

Strange how the article in The Star doesn't mention any numbers to back up this claim? Only that its takes three times as long to book non-English speaking prisoners in and that staff are 'stretched'

Then its obviously a false story, no base in fact then, dreamed up by the far right,as ever to make cheeky mischief, and rouse the West side living liberals on here.

Why do you call the West side living folk liberals, I lived in the west of sheffield for many years and I am anything but a softie liberal twit!

Will do the interpretation industry good though, which has to be a plus in these hard times :hihi:

Would I be right in thinking this would mainly be people of a non English origin though?

Hmmmm 'Migrant crime toll rising'

Nowhere is the Star's article does it say that the number of crimes is rising, just that the time taken to process non english speaking crims is three times longer.

Of course, with the influx of immigrants the crime rate is bound to go up pro rata, which should be dealt with, but as usual the Star prints an article designed to induce hate.

Of course, with the influx of immigrants the crime rate is bound to go up pro rata, which should be dealt with, but as usual the Star prints an article designed to induce hate.

Your pro rata argument is belied by the statistical evidence. According to Home Office figures, the UK prison population in 2008 was around 82,000, of which no less than 12,100 were born abroad. These means that around 1 in 7 prisoners in UK jails is likely to be a foreigner. Moreover, this proportion has risen quite dramatically in recent years, coinciding with the Labour government's abandonment of tough immigration controls.

Can't understand how people can go on defending immigrants. They must have a perverted Left-Wing agenda or be seriously blinkered.

I cant remember the source but I have read recently that overseas workers are twice as likely to be killed in construction site activities as british workers.

Although nothing to do with crime but goes to show that importing workers is not always a cheap option.

thought this would interest people who say the migrant crimewave is a myth.

www.thestar.co.uk/headlines/migrant-crime-toll-rising.5172562.jp


the cost to the police force is massive.

Rubbish. You haven't read the article. Are you suggesting we let off people who can't speak English, or what?

...proportion has risen quite dramatically in recent years, coinciding with the Labour government's abandonment of tough immigration controls.

Maybe, m'lud, these statistics are part of the reasons for Jacqui Smith's office rigorously pursuing Damian Green.

i have worked in sheffield with poles albainians and quite a few others i hadto have safety certificates half these people didnt have and couldnt speak english

Can't understand how people can go on defending immigrants. They must have a perverted Left-Wing agenda or be seriously blinkered.

Defending them in what way? Another one who hasn't read the article.What's your agenda?

Hmmmm 'Migrant crime toll rising'

Nowhere is the Star's article does it say that the number of crimes is rising, just that the time taken to process non english speaking crims is three times longer.

Of course, with the influx of immigrants the crime rate is bound to go up pro rata, which should be dealt with, but as usual the Star prints an article designed to induce hate.

"migrant crime toll rising" is the headline, the article explains that clearly.

"migrant crime toll rising" is the headline, the article explains that clearly.It says OXO on buses but they don't sell it.

thought this would interest people who say the migrant crimewave is a myth.

www.thestar.co.uk/headlines/migrant-crime-toll-rising.5172562.jp


the cost to the police force is massive.

They never can speak English when arrested,but they can when collecting their benefits.

So the article makes a few good points, but the OP isn't supported in the statement about a crime wave, the article makes no mention of increasing levels of crime.

that's the point we have our own criminals without importing any more :rolleyes:
We import nothing but.
Who with any common wants to come here?

Can't understand how people can go on defending immigrants. They must have a perverted Left-Wing agenda or be seriously blinkered.

Well said mate, Its beggars belief. Use your vote June 4th.

Your pro rata argument is belied by the statistical evidence. According to Home Office figures, the UK prison population in 2008 was around 82,000, of which no less than 12,100 were born abroad. These means that around 1 in 7 prisoners in UK jails is likely to be a foreigner. Moreover, this proportion has risen quite dramatically in recent years, coinciding with the Labour government's abandonment of tough immigration controls.

Aren't you confusing the overall crime rate with the prison population? Since most crimes don't attract a custodial sentence, surely your argument is skewed?

Around 1 in 10 prisoners is thought to be ex-services, usually army. More than 70% of the prison population is thought to have 2 or more diagnoses of mental illness. The prison population just isn't representative of the general population.

Which doesn't mean that immigration and crime is necessarily a non-issue, but let's keep it in proportion, eh? And this really is weak journalism, but then what would you expect from the Sheffield Star?

So the article makes a few good points, but the OP isn't supported in the statement about a crime wave, the article makes no mention of increasing levels of crime.

The mention of a crimewave was made by police earlier this year denying it existed. Thats what I was refering to.

The title and content of the article don't match. Very poor journalism. Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story!

"It takes approximately three times as long to book in a person who does not speak English as it does an English speaker"

DOES NOT MEAN

"Migrant crime toll rising"

The title and content of the article don't match. Very poor journalism. Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story!

"It takes approximately three times as long to book in a person who does not speak English as it does an English speaker"

DOES NOT MEAN

"Migrant crime toll rising"

I think we can safely say they are not lowering it.

The mention of a crimewave was made by police earlier this year denying it existed. Thats what I was refering to.

Here's a thought.
Maybe it doesn't exist.

I think we can safely say they are not lowering it.

All you can safely say is that the article that was quoted as evidence makes no mention of it at all. So wild supposition to one side, is there actually any evidence either way?

The title and content of the article don't match. Very poor journalism. Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story!

"It takes approximately three times as long to book in a person who does not speak English as it does an English speaker"

DOES NOT MEAN

"Migrant crime toll rising"

I think we can safely say they are not lowering it.

If they're immigrants how exactly would they lower the crime figure of the indigenous population seeing as they're not part of it :loopy:

Well, if some of you could just post your addresses and signing-on times here, I'll make sure my Russian wife comes round to rob/mug you, assuming she can find the time between college and work.

And presumably all we native Brits are being right little goody-goodies, and standing by to act as Batman? Crime has gone up in toto,so it seems a little unnecessary to highlight only one area. Incidentally, the individual who offered extreme violence because of something my learner driver did yesterday was very obviously British, as was the guy who broke in to my car twice.

It's the situations you describe that annoys so many people - we are more than capable of breeding our own losers and idiots, England doesn't need anymore being shipped in!:hihi:

Well said mate, Its beggars belief. Use your vote June 4th.

What, and vote for the fu*kwit brigade that you are constantly carping on about??? A vote placed with your mates is a vote wasted!:loopy:

Aren't you confusing the overall crime rate with the prison population? Since most crimes don't attract a custodial sentence, surely your argument is skewed?

Around 1 in 10 prisoners is thought to be ex-services, usually army. More than 70% of the prison population is thought to have 2 or more diagnoses of mental illness. The prison population just isn't representative of the general population.


OK how about he refines it to "The more serious criminals are disproportionately foreign-born". Not exactly what you were thinking of I'm sure but it follows in your first para's logic.

As for the second para - indeed that's the point. Can you explain why so many foreign born individuals end up in prison despite our lax sentencing system? Could it be with the total collapse of border control we have had a massive influx of people into the country, a worrying number of which should never have been allowed in?

I do believe migrant crime is rising.
When I was in Thailand and Malaysia I saw loads of Brits trying to buy young girls (and boys) for sex.
The one that was bragging in a street bar, Chinatown, KL got a kicking from a bloke who was as unhappy as I was about his filthy crimes but had a shorter fuse.
Bloody migrant Brits, eh?

Sorry. Was the Op about filthy foreigners in the UK? :D

I do believe migrant crime is rising.
When I was in Thailand and Malaysia I saw loads of Brits trying to buy young girls (and boys) for sex.
The one that was bragging in a street bar, Chinatown, KL got a kicking from a bloke who was as unhappy as I was about his filthy crimes but had a shorter fuse.
Bloody migrant Brits, eh?

Sorry. Was the Op about filthy foreigners in the UK? :D
full of shizen as usual :rolleyes:

Don't talk crap.

well said its a shame about some folk
he may learn one day or not :rolleyes:

Will do the interpretation industry good though, which has to be a plus in these hard times :hihi:

your joking i hope they have all been on a power cruise for years .

Free health, education, accommodation, claim benefits no questions asked... Scream racism when something doesn't go their way AND get away with it. Yeah it must be horrible for them here.

Our goverment offer it, So whats the big deal in them accepting the offers?
we didnt complain too much when we got indians/african to do all our dirty work many moons ago did we?

Our goverment offer it, So whats the big deal in them accepting the offers?
we didnt complain too much when we got indians/african to do all our dirty work many moons ago did we?what dirty work would that be ? ive never seen one job where the workforce was totally
indian or african

they were invited here to fill the jobs that were at the time being done by women due to the war,we lost a lot of men and had to have the women take over the jobs,then due to the loss of the men that died in the war England almost lost a generation,it was thought that we needed more children due to this so immigrants were asked if they would like to come here and work while the women retired and got on with bringing up their families or starting new ones

it had nothing to do with immigrants doing jobs white men wouldnt do,ask yourself this.who did them before immigration ? the white man, then he went off to serve his country and the women of England stepped in to fill those jobs, after the war years it was decided as i explained above,that we needed to boost the population due to war deaths .many of the immigrants were ex british service men who fought during the war, heres a link
http://www.icons.org.uk/theicons/collection/ss-windrush/features/windrush-ten

hardly jobs the white man would not do is it ?

Our goverment offer it, So whats the big deal in them accepting the offers?
we didnt complain too much when we got indians/african to do all our dirty work many moons ago did we?

Think the key word is WORK,not many of us don't object to people who work,itd the scrounging toerags who don't work gets our backs up.

Aren't you confusing the overall crime rate with the prison population? Since most crimes don't attract a custodial sentence, surely your argument is skewed?

Around 1 in 10 prisoners is thought to be ex-services, usually army. More than 70% of the prison population is thought to have 2 or more diagnoses of mental illness. The prison population just isn't representative of the general population.

Which doesn't mean that immigration and crime is necessarily a non-issue, but let's keep it in proportion, eh? And this really is weak journalism, but then what would you expect from the Sheffield Star?

Well my dear Teafan, you are of course right that all statistics are open to question and interpretation. However, in my view the disproportionate number of foreigners in British jails is a significant indicator of the greater propensity of immigrants to these shores to commit serious criminal acts (the ones the indigenous population are more likely to be concerned about, because those in jail are more likely to be either guilty of serious crimes or are repeat offenders). Now I am sure if I had time I could add riders to these figures, or even find some way of explaining them away, but even so I think it likely that the argument I was rebutting (i.e. that immigrants commit crimes on a pro rata basis with the indigenous population) will stay rebutted. As for your points about soldiers and the mentally ill, surely these support the point I was making rather than undermine it - or have I missed something?

Well my dear Teafan, you are of course right that all statistics are open to question and interpretation. However, in my view the disproportionate number of foreigners in British jails is a significant indicator of the greater propensity of immigrants to these shores to commit serious criminal acts (the ones the indigenous population are more likely to be concerned about, because those in jail are more likely to be either guilty of serious crimes or are repeat offenders). Now I am sure if I had time I could add riders to these figures, or even find some way of explaining them away, but even so I think it likely that the argument I was rebutting (i.e. that immigrants commit crimes on a pro rata basis with the indigenous population) will stay rebutted. As for your points about soldiers and the mentally ill, surely these support the point I was making rather than undermine it - or have I missed something?

Possibly. My point was that you can't make reliable inferences about the general population by looking at the prison population. Otherwise 10% of us would be ex-army, and 70% of us would have significant mental health problems.

LC - who suggested that immigrants commit crimes on a pro rata basis with the indigents? Maybe I missed it, maybe it was just a well constructed straw man, please clarify.

LC - who suggested that immigrants commit crimes on a pro rata basis with the indigents? Maybe I missed it, maybe it was just a well constructed straw man, please clarify.

I am happy to clarify. See post 11 on this thread by Vulcan B2 and my reply (post 12).

Possibly. My point was that you can't make reliable inferences about the general population by looking at the prison population. Otherwise 10% of us would be ex-army, and 70% of us would have significant mental health problems.

Forgive me Teafan, but I am having difficulty in understanding the logic of your argument here. What these figures show is that foreigners, the mentally ill and ex-servicemen all have an above-average propensity to end up in jail. The inference I make from this in relation to these three groups is that they all have a greater than average propensity to engage in criminal acts which are deemed serious enough to warrant incarceration.

Now, of course, there could be other explanations, i.e. that these three groups merely have an above-average propensity to get caught, but I personally don't find this argument particularly convincing. It is also quite possible (indeed even probable) that there are different reasons for the criminal propensities of these groups, but none of this in my view undermines the central fact that foreigners have an above average propensity to engage in serious criminal behaviour.

What would be useful to know is whether people born abroad are generally more likely to commit crimes than people born here, or whether it's a case of serious, organised crime merchants taking advantage of freedom of movement in the EU.

The prison stats quoted by Lord Chaverley (link please?) are certainly worrying, but it is possible that this reflects organised crime going pan-European rather than a generally higher offending rate for the wider migrant community.

It would also be useful to know by which route these people in prison arrived in the UK, as there are a number of possible ways; freedom of entry to EU nationals, student visas, the asylum route, the more tightly-controlled non-EU migration, plus illegal entry. That would give a much better picture of what is happening and what can be done about it.

Of course, with the influx of immigrants the crime rate is bound to go up pro rata

Is not the same as saying that immigrants commit crimes at the same level as the indigents... Or at least that's not how I read it.

Edit - to answer some of Teafans points.
Immigrants are far more likely to be young and male, people committing crime tend to be young and male as well (ex servicemen also tend to be male, young I'm not so sure).
If we compare the crime rate amongst immigrants to the entire indigent population it will obviously be much higher.
If we compare it to the a representative demographic, well, that would be more interesting and useful data. What would be really really interesting, would be if we could find some sort of common factor that would allow the likely criminal immigrants to be denied entry.

It might also be worth considering the proportions of legal and illegal immigrants jailed compared to the proportions present in the country.
If the vast majority are illegals then to continue to try to stop illegal immigration is the obvious answer as you can't filter out people who never apply for entry.

"migrant crime toll rising" is the headline, the article explains that clearly.

The Star never explains anything clearly. It gives no indications of numbers involved or any real statistics to back up the story. As usual that rag induces hate. I'm not defending immigrants at all, and those who break the law should be punished, but stories like this incite hate against immigrants as a whole, not just the law breaking minority.

Is not the same as saying that immigrants commit crimes at the same level as the indigents... Or at least that's not how I read it.

Edit - to answer some of Teafans points.
Immigrants are far more likely to be young and male, people committing crime tend to be young and male as well (ex servicemen also tend to be male, young I'm not so sure).
If we compare the crime rate amongst immigrants to the entire indigent population it will obviously be much higher.
If we compare it to the a representative demographic, well, that would be more interesting and useful data. What would be really really interesting, would be if we could find some sort of common factor that would allow the likely criminal immigrants to be denied entry.

It might also be worth considering the proportions of legal and illegal immigrants jailed compared to the proportions present in the country.
If the vast majority are illegals then to continue to try to stop illegal immigration is the obvious answer as you can't filter out people who never apply for entry.

Well, your definition of the term 'pro rata' is different to mine. My definition, which is likely to be confirmed by any dictionary you consult, us that it means in proportion to something. The overall crime rate of foreigners is clearly disproportionate to the indigenous crime rate, if the prison population is used as an indicator.

As for effective measures to cope with this problem, there are several things which could be done. Firstly, we could introduce more effective immigration controls, to end for example the various abuses associated with our asylum and refugee policies; secondly, we could introduce tougher policies in relation to the deportation of criminals found guilty of serious offences (very few of these are actually deported); thirdly, we could introduce more rigorous scrutiny of worker migrants (with background checks of the kind I was required to undertake when I applied to work in the US); we could also crack down on illegal immigration in various ways. Where there is a will there is a way. Unfortunately the Labour government has never had the will to introduce effective immigration controls.

In the same way that so called minor driving offences ( no tax, insurance, not wearing seat belts ) are often an indicator of the person being involved in other illegal activities ( drink driving , drugs , speeding ,car theft , burgulary etc) then a similar approach could be applied to immigrant crime. It is probable that the perpertrator ( if an illegal) has committed other crimes in his travels to get to this country. Getting into this country illegally is a crime isn't it? Once conditioned to commit a crime or two a few more probably won't worry him too much.

Well, your definition of the term 'pro rata' is different to mine. My definition, which is likely to be confirmed by any dictionary you consult, us that it means in proportion to something. The overall crime rate of foreigners is clearly disproportionate to the indigenous crime rate, if the prison population is used as an indicator.

As for effective measures to cope with this problem, there are several things which could be done. Firstly, we could introduce more effective immigration controls, to end for example the various abuses associated with our asylum and refugee policies; secondly, we could introduce tougher policies in relation to the deportation of criminals found guilty of serious offences (very few of these are actually deported); thirdly, we could introduce more rigorous scrutiny of worker migrants (with background checks of the kind I was required to undertake when I applied to work in the US); we could also crack down on illegal immigration in various ways. Where there is a will there is a way. Unfortunately the Labour government has never had the will to introduce effective immigration controls.

But I think that's a problematic thing to do. Trying to extrapolate from 83,000 people to a population of about 65 million is difficult. You can't assume with certainty that the presence of 12,000 foreign-born prisoners indicates a statistically significantly higher offending rate for the entire foreign-born population of the UK. It might do, it might not. To find out, you'd need to look at overall offending rather than offending which leads to imprisonment.

Can you supply a link please for the 12,000 figure, by the way?