I recently read that some Doctors are now working through agencies and are now demanding higher than ever salaries. Apparently this is heavily eating into NHS budgets. My question is are doctors getting greedy? perhaps it's becming like football but on a much smaller scale of course but still with the use of agents negotiating on your behalf. If this is the case then the NHS are in a no win situation, there is obviously a need of doctors and they have to recruit them but if there is none other than through agencies then they are forced to meet pay demands.

Originally posted by "Lickszz"

I recently read that some Doctors are now working through agencies and are now demanding higher than ever salaries. Apparently this is heavily eating into NHS budgets. My question is are doctors getting greedy? perhaps it's becming like football but on a much smaller scale of course but still with the use of agents negotiating on your behalf. If this is the case then the NHS are in a no win situation, there is obviously a need of doctors and they have to recruit them but if there is none other than through agencies then they are forced to meet pay demands.

Are you referring to recruitment agencies? All of these take a fee, I think usually in the form of a percentage of your wage - if doctors getting jobs through agencies accepted the same pay as for a job gained 'directly' they'd effectively be getting a pay cut as their portion of the pay is lower. This is no different to any job you get through an agency.

NHS wages vary hugely between the different types of job - some people earn every penny they work for (most of the doctors) while some earn more than they're worth (managers) and some less (nurses). Even this is a very broad generalisation, though, and is my opinion based on knowing people in the profession and how had they work. The whole organisation does seem to be in a mess - privatising bits of it has not improved the NHS as a whole and I'm quite sure any improvements part-privatisation has brought could have been achieved through a wholly-publically owned NHS. There is a lot of money wasted - if any money should be saved in the NHS then this wasteage should be stemmed before any consideration is made to cutting the wages of the people who make the service work.

I dont believe doctors are becoming greedy. They work all the hours god sends and then still go home to "work". They do on-call at weekends, nights and even when they are on holidays. I think they deserve every penny they get which is not really an awful lot for what they do in comparison to some "managers salaries". It is not the doctors fault the NHS is at breaking point, it is too many government policies which, are changing constantly and a situation of their being "more managers than beds"!!!

Apparently the NHS was once a British heritage, something to be really proud of but the government has seen to destroying that.

Enough said - Im off my soapbox now!!!!

These days most GP's have changed their phone numbers to those premium rate lines so you're lining their pockets that way too :mad:

Originally posted by Chris
Are you referring to recruitment agencies? All of these take a fee, I think usually in the form of a percentage of your wage - if doctors getting jobs through agencies accepted the same pay as for a job gained 'directly' they'd effectively be getting a pay cut as their portion of the pay is lower. This is no different to any job you get through an agency.



This is not quite how agencies work - they do not take their cut from the workers actual pay. The agency worker gets paid the same (or often more) than they would working directly for the organisation. The agency then charges an hourly fee to the organisation which consists of the hourly rate being paid to the worker (which includes a percentage to cover holiday pay), the national insurance contributions the agency has to make for that worker, and then their mark up (their fee). The agency I used to work for would add the worker's hourly rate and NI together and then times that by anything between 1.6 and 2.3 to get the hourly rate they would charge to the client. Hence the organisation employing the agency worker pays much much more than if they were employing that person directly - hence why agency fees drain the NHs of money.

Originally posted by Don_Kiddick
These days most GP's have changed their phone numbers to those premium rate lines so you're lining their pockets that way too :mad:

Are you quite sure? My local surgery has changed to an 0845 number, which is local rate only - NOT premium rate.

The plan being that we now have a single number to call, day or night, so if the surgery is closed, the call will divert elsewhere.

The Health authority is currently looking at the use of 0845 type numbers as often GP surgeries are (very!) difficult to get through to and these numbers do no offer the ringback facility.

I do think that there is a certain amount of greed in the medical profession but in addition the profession is under a deal of pressure from many different angles.

As always in an open market, the market forces work to drive up or down the costs!

Originally posted by redhotjo
I do think that there is a certain amount of greed in the medical profession but in addition the profession is under a deal of pressure from many different angles.

While the salaries for NHS consultants (http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/nhs-knowledge_base/data/5340.html) look pretty rosy, I expect that they will have spent years, if not decades, getting to the top of their respective fields and could expect to earn far much more had they been working in the private sector instead.

Mind you, I suppose you really can't reward who those heal the sick and mend the damaged enough.

Malpractice insurance it why they have to charge what they do, too many sue happy people out there. don't think they've been able to put a cap on it yet .

actually medical insurance is not why they have to put prices up as this is a tax deductable expense and although this has increased over the years with a "sue" and "compensation" culture this is not the reason.
The problem is that there are insufficient drs in the country and as such they can afford to demand higher salaries/locum payments as the health trusts have to meet their service level agreements.

the 0845 number is because HM Govt has introduced it as a matter of policy; the theory is that the people who answer these calls will be able to determine the necessity for hospital care in order to reduce the number of people referred to hospital. As I gather the people who take these calls are some kind of nursing staff and not GPs, I wouldnt be surprised to learn the referrals have increased.

This is not something any of the GPs in the country can do anything about because it is Labour Government Policy. If you dont like it, write to your MP assuming they are at all interested to listen to what you've got to say.

Originally posted by wendygs
the 0845 number is because HM Govt has introduced it as a matter of policy; the theory is that the people who answer these calls will be able to determine the necessity for hospital care in order to reduce the number of people referred to hospital. As I gather the people who take these calls are some kind of nursing staff and not GPs, I wouldnt be surprised to learn the referrals have increased.

This is not something any of the GPs in the country can do anything about because it is Labour Government Policy. If you dont like it, write to your MP assuming they are at all interested to listen to what you've got to say.

I think the previous post was referring to GP surgeries having 0845 numbers - mine does, but it only gets you through to the receptionist, just as the old number did.

actually medical insurance is not why they have to put prices up as this is a tax deductable expense and although this has increased over the years with a "sue" and "compensation" culture this is not the reason.
The problem is that there are insufficient drs in the country and as such they can afford to demand higher salaries/locum payments as the health trusts have to meet their service level agreements.

Okay while I'm furious at this reply... If you knew how much a gp has to pay in expenses.. My husband pays £500 a month in medical insurance, and other fees to keep himself a gp... Not to mention the £250 he spends driving to lazy patients houses (majority not all) to tell them to take paracet. for a headache or cold. You may be thinking he gets compensation for this right?? well not really you see the £500 is paid out of his taxed salary which is £58,000 a year.. which means he is in the higher tax bracket.. and he only gets 22% of the £500 back although he was taxed 40% for it in the first place. If you just take out £500 his salary equals £49,000 a year.. and thats not including the petrol.. after (work) petrol and his fees my husband takes home £2,550 a month.

I'm sorry people but the average person takes home £2,000 a month.. My husband went to cambridge for 6 years has 2 degrees.. his doctorate and a masters in neuroscience. He then went on to become a GP for another 4 years. Thats 10 years of school in which he has saved the lives of many including a little girl who kept sweating and was found to have a very very rare disease.. that even other gps could not pick up on.. (let alone a nurse)..

However, the nhs has set 10 min. appt. for doctors and a heavy workload designed by you got it.. nurses who have become managers.. And in 10 years time.. they plan on replacing GPS with nurses.

And what ****** me off the most is that my best friends husband is an area manager for aldi and makes £65,000 a year and a free BMW with petrol paid. He doesn't have any medical fees to pay either..

So while all you people are whinging at the GPS in your country.. Your GPS are working their asses off because they care about you. My husband is married to me an American.. he could be paid a Higher salary than most docs in america because of the school he went to .. but he refuses to leave this country.. He loves his job.. and his british people...

By the way when was the last time your GP went on strike because of LOW pay..???

You're replying to a thread started in 2003, and last posted on before you nearly a year ago!

I can't really argue most of your points, although why he would have to pay for his own petrol for patient visits I don't understand. Surely he can claim back the cost from the NHS as business mileage?

The only point that is clearly wrong is that the average person takes home £2000 a year. The average wage is about £25,000 which after tax and stoppages works out at much less than 2k/month.

The average wage is about £25,000 which after tax and stoppages works out at much less than 2k/month.

In all my years in South Yorkshire I have never met anyone getting anywhere near as much as £25,000 a year. Looking at the local jobs papers it would seem that the average wage is nearer £13-15,000.
Where do they get these figures from?

It's the national average (or mean), not Sheffield. And it includes the likes of pop stars and footballers earning millions, so makes the figures artifically high.

These days most GP's have changed their phone numbers to those premium rate lines so you're lining their pockets

The quick relief these premium numbers offer that your on about aint got ought to do with doctors. :hihi:

ISTR hearing a radio report this last week or so that all the extra money that hsa gone into the Sheffield PCT's in the last 12 months has been snurped up with increased doctors salaries - not a penny has gone to patient care.

Can anyone expand on that?

I think some doctors have always been greedy

In all my years in South Yorkshire I have never met anyone getting anywhere near as much as £25,000 a year. Looking at the local jobs papers it would seem that the average wage is nearer £13-15,000.
Where do they get these figures from?

nice to meet you, my name's cyclone. Now you have.

Rich - there is nothing artificial about it, is there some reason that high earners should have their numbers excluded from a mean value?
There's also the fact that out of 30 million data points, the at most 1000 top earners even if earning multiple millions will not be affecting the average by very much.

I think £2000 is the average for people with decent jobs. Last time I checked a teacher with 2 years experience takes home £1,800. After gaining experience and expertise she/he can move up to £2,000. Those who go into management roles can take home up to 2,666 and earn up to 48,000 a year.. what my husbands earns after he pays medical fees.
While I think this salary really bites.. with todays prices and housing market.

I do not agree that a teacher and doctor should be in the same salary bracket. My husband has 7 years after his registration as a gp and is involved in managing/developing a practice for the pct as well as being the clinical supervisor. (which he does for free because the PCT doesn't pay for it.) He leaves the house at 7:30 in the morning only to arrive home at 7:45 in the evening..sometimes 9pm if he has a meeting. He also did not eat his lunch today because he was busy with a cancer patient and had lunch time visits

P.S. Most local papers do not post all the jobs to professionals.. An assistant manager at aldi makes about £25,000. A manager 35,000 and so on..

by the way your pcts really bite.. They spend money on training nurses and then don't have a job for them.. My husband is also training ecp's.. which is a nurse who takes on the role of a doctor... He trained them and they don't have any job.. so they are being paid to sit in the surgery and watch my husband perform.... mmmm I think pcts are using gps as a scapegoat for management mistakes.. (after all a paramedic was the chief exec. of an ambulance trust earning about £125,000 a year) Makes one wonder how he got there when he was still attending school for his bach. in management..

If you put doctors at the head of the NHS you would see a great system..
cuz they don't care about money but about their patients.. their ambitious and smart too..

someone I know was recently charged £74 for her Dr to sign a form to say she was healthy enough to become a childminder.

I would like to add that teachers can earn ctc and wtc ... while my husband cannot... so in the long run.. he really isn't making any more then those earning £30,000

mean salary averages do not represent the salaries that the majority of people earn.

though doctors deserve to paid more than any of the economic parasites usually called managers that work in sales, or marketing or somesuch nonsense.

I think £2000 is the average for people with decent jobs. Last time I checked a teacher with 2 years experience takes home £1,800. After gaining experience and expertise she/he can move up to £2,000. Those who go into management roles can take home up to 2,666 and earn up to 48,000 a year.. what my husbands earns after he pays medical fees.
While I think this salary really bites.. with todays prices and housing market.

I do not agree that a teacher and doctor should be in the same salary bracket. My husband has 7 years after his registration as a gp and is involved in managing/developing a practice for the pct as well as being the clinical supervisor. (which he does for free because the PCT doesn't pay for it.) He leaves the house at 7:30 in the morning only to arrive home at 7:45 in the evening..sometimes 9pm if he has a meeting. He also did not eat his lunch today because he was busy with a cancer patient and had lunch time visits

P.S. Most local papers do not post all the jobs to professionals.. An assistant manager at aldi makes about £25,000. A manager 35,000 and so on..


Welcome to the world that the rest of occupy ;)

by the way your pcts really bite.. They spend money on training nurses and then don't have a job for them.. My husband is also training ecp's.. which is a nurse who takes on the role of a doctor... He trained them and they don't have any job.. so they are being paid to sit in the surgery and watch my husband perform.... mmmm I think pcts are using gps as a scapegoat for management mistakes.. (after all a paramedic was the chief exec. of an ambulance trust earning about £125,000 a year) Makes one wonder how he got there when he was still attending school for his bach. in management..

If you put doctors at the head of the NHS you would see a great system..
cuz they don't care about money but about their patients.. their ambitious and smart too..

Im sorry,but i think your love for your husband is clouding your judgement.I have worked in clinical environments for nearly 20 years. Yes there are some excellent doctors about but that does not mean they would be any better at running the NHS than the current management.You talk about the time they spend training,but how much of that is about management??? They are no better qualified than any other clinician,when it comes to management. Also to say that doctors dont care about money is a load of cobblers.We all work for the money.You have done nothing BUT talk about money and how little your husband earns. I think your posts have been really dissmissive of all other clinicians other than the 'sacred' and mighty doctors.

Your experience is of a tiny section of a HUGE organisation,and this appears to be second hand as well?
oh and i would far rather have 'our pct's' than 'your' american system,thank you very much...

I very much agree with the nhs concept.. I think its terrific.. what I don't agree with is people not respecting those who are better qualified.. I believe their was a time when people actually respected doctors. My mother is a nurse... I love her to bits.. but I am definately aware that few nurses including her can really take the kind of pressure.. and efficiently do the job needed by the nhs.

umm as for money every single one of my husbands friends at cambridge who took accounting, law, management.. started at £70,000 in the training posts.

So although you my dear may love money and think everyone else does. It is not the case with an ambitious person who would probably be successful in any venture they sought. They were at the top of the class to get in medical school in the first place.

You were right in post.. I do have a deep seated resentment.. because since I've been married I keep hearing how gps make too much money, they are the reason the nhs is over budget ectr. ectr. It gets to me .. because I'd love to work but can't because we can not afford to put the kids in nursery..and they won't start until their like 4 years old full time. Not to mention that we cannot afford an area with semi decent schools. Its frustrating. but thats a tax issue that I would love to bring on another thread.

I think £2000 is the average for people with decent jobs. Last time I checked a teacher with 2 years experience takes home £1,800. After gaining experience and expertise she/he can move up to £2,000. Those who go into management roles can take home up to 2,666 and earn up to 48,000 a year.. what my husbands earns after he pays medical fees.
While I think this salary really bites.. with todays prices and housing market.

I do not agree that a teacher and doctor should be in the same salary bracket. My husband has 7 years after his registration as a gp and is involved in managing/developing a practice for the pct as well as being the clinical supervisor. (which he does for free because the PCT doesn't pay for it.) He leaves the house at 7:30 in the morning only to arrive home at 7:45 in the evening..sometimes 9pm if he has a meeting. He also did not eat his lunch today because he was busy with a cancer patient and had lunch time visits

P.S. Most local papers do not post all the jobs to professionals.. An assistant manager at aldi makes about £25,000. A manager 35,000 and so on..

So £2000 is an average you've just made up, I see.
As I said, the real average is about £25,000 for a full time male. This is less than £2000/month. Rough calculation puts it at about 1.6k/month.
48k would be for either a head of a large department, deputy of a large school, or a head teacher. Not posts that you reach within a few years of qualifying.

I'm not sure what ctc and wtc are, but I don't see how the fact that teachers can earn them somehow reduces your husbands salary.

There's also the question of why your husband earns so far below the average earnings for a gp in this country. The figures published last year had gp's taking home 80k on average.
70k as a trainee solicitor, lol. Most trainee solicitors get 14k which is the minimum allowed by the law college I think. And they have to do 2 years as a trainee to qualify.
I know a few solicitors, all qualified now, and none of them earn 70k, although the one who owns his own business has that potential i suppose.

Hello everybody, I'm a final year medical student and am returning to the north west to work next year.

I want to be a GP eventually. A full-time salaried GP will earn around £100k per year pre-tax, I think, and potentially quite a bit more for a GP partner, pending meeting targets etc etc. so long as the government doesn't change the current contract too much. Optional on call, one afternoon off a week. That's the life for me hopefully!

But this is after 2 degrees, 6 years at university, around £30k of debt, and my starting salary is something like £30k per year pre tax. I'm not too fussed though, I've enjoyed my training very much. But if my salary falls with inflation and I can't get a training post in 2 years' time (seems very possible), I will be very tempted to leave medicine in the UK, as will most of my colleagues I believe. We know how much we're worth. We know how expensive our education has been to the public. We know how much we can earn in other countries too.

I think the American woman's husband must be doing a part time job (3 and a half days per week). How else you get to £2550 per month I have no idea. That's just over £30k per year, your sums do not add up! Even with £500 per month indemnity fees and petrol costs. If it is the case, he seriously needs to hire a lawyer/ accountant to figure out how he can make the most of his pre tax expenses.

If money is a big issue, learn how to avoid paying so much tax (legally). All the rich folk do it, and a General Practice is much like a private business really. Just don't tell the tax man.

by the way, my figures are taken from my GP attachment which was in Portobello, Edinburgh. I think they were hitting targets fairly consistently

But this is after 2 degrees, 6 years at university, around £30k of debt, and my starting salary is something like £30k per year pre tax. I'm not too fussed though, I've enjoyed my training very much. But if my salary falls with inflation and I can't get a training post in 2 years' time (seems very possible), I will be very tempted to leave medicine in the UK, as will most of my colleagues I believe. We know how much we're worth. We know how expensive our education has been to the public. We know how much we can earn in other countries too.

You're complaining about the salary?? Try being a scientist. 7 Years of university, a higher level of education, same level (if not more debt), to command salaries of 16-18k pre tax as a post doc.

You're complaining about the salary?? Try being a scientist. 7 Years of university, a higher level of education, same level (if not more debt), to command salaries of 16-18k pre tax as a post doc.

I didn't complain. I don't think what a doctor does and what a scientist does really compares though; they are two very different jobs, with different working hours/ conditions. Academics don't usually get paid as much as they're worth in this country. Try the USA if money means alot; land of opportunities :)

The really greedy/smart people go into finance. 3 year degree then a £30k starting salary with a £5k bonus - what my friend is on after a 2:1 degree in accounting from York university, accepted into operations division at RBS. I guess to get money, you've got to study and understand money.

I didn't complain. I don't think what a doctor does and what a scientist does really compares though; they are two very different jobs, with different working hours/ conditions. Academics don't usually get paid as much as they're worth in this country. Try the USA if money means alot; land of opportunities :)

The really greedy/smart people go into finance. 3 year degree then a £30k starting salary with a £5k bonus - what my friend is on after a 2:1 degree in accounting from York university, accepted into operations division at RBS. I guess to get money, you've got to study and understand money.

The conditions are obviously different but I disagree about the hours, I frequently work 60/70 hour weeks. I was getting at the point that in many people's opinion, salary should be reflective of the level of education that is compulsory to do that job.

by the way your pcts really bite.. They spend money on training nurses and then don't have a job for them.. My husband is also training ecp's.. which is a nurse who takes on the role of a doctor... He trained them and they don't have any job..

I totally agree. The management of the NHS is messed up. Much is a result of the bureaucracy in today's medicine. The nurses are trained because of some targets that needed to be met, in order for some managers to get their full salary. But then on the other end of the system, managers are paid to employ as small a number of people as possible to do the same job in the most cost effective way. The system has very little to do with patient care.

Yes there are some excellent doctors about but that does not mean they would be any better at running the NHS than the current management.You talk about the time they spend training,but how much of that is about management??? They are no better qualified than any other clinician,when it comes to management.

Doctors are trained in managing especially when they reach senior positions: they are the leaders in their healthcare team and are constantly involved with the supervision of colleagues. The principal concern of everyone involved in the delivery of health services should be the care, treatment and safety of patients. But doctors have a responsibility to consider the allocation of resources in a way that best serves the interests of the community. Doctors should always use evidence from research and audit to make the optimum use of the resources available. We do this all the time, whether it's prescribing medications, ordering investigations, etc. Doctors play a huge role in the management of health care.

The conditions are obviously different but I disagree about the hours, I frequently work 60/70 hour weeks. I was getting at the point that in many people's opinion, salary should be reflective of the level of education that is compulsory to do that job.

OK you win :) you've proved the point that scientists are totally screwed in this country :)

Does the European working time directive not affect you? You could seriously sue your employers.

Also, if your salary is 16k and you're working 70 hour weeks, you are earning well below the minimum wage

OK you win :) you've proved the point that scientists are totally screwed in this country :)

Does the European working time directive not affect you? You could seriously sue your employers.

Also, if your salary is 16k and you're working 70 hour weeks, you are earning well below the minimum wage

Thank you :D

We have legal rules regarding our 'contact hours' (teaching) with students which are a maximum of 20 hours per week. Many of us work over this, but we all do it so none of us can really put our hands up and say we're going to sue because we're all in the same boat - hence the strikes last year.

I can't believe someone on this thread is complaining that doctors are underpaid. The NHS has always overpaid doctors, Nye Bevan complained that he had to "stuff their mouths with gold" to get them to shut up and accept the NHS in the first place.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/nhs_at_50/special_report/119803.stm

http://society.guardian.co.uk/NHSstaff/story/0,,736087,00.html

What other employer would let contracted staff on massive salaries work part time for competitors? Yet most consultants run off after their NHS surgeries to Bupa hospitals to rake in yet more cash.

Yes I believe doctors have become incredibly greedy

Their minimum is £100,000 one hundred thousand pounds per year, and they are always loooking for more.

Yes I believe doctors have become incredibly greedy

Their minimum is £100,000 one hundred thousand pounds per year, and they are always loooking for more.

What a load of tosh!
Show me 1 doctor earning £100,000 minimum and I'll show you 100 that earn £35-40k minimum.

And when you say 'doctors' are you only referring to GPs or also to hospital doctors, public health doctors etc etc?

OK you win :) you've proved the point that scientists are totally screwed in this country :)

Does the European working time directive not affect you? You could seriously sue your employers.

Also, if your salary is 16k and you're working 70 hour weeks, you are earning well below the minimum wage

postdocs are not paid hourly so I dont think minimum wage laws apply I dont even have working hours. I am paid a salary to get the job done no matter how long it takes. Same for all postdocs as far as I know, many of whom have 7 years training which is very hard (at least it is in physics which is what I do). Not sure where you get 16k from though? Most postdocs I know earn at least 10k more than that and salaries are supposed to be the same in the whole university no matter which area you work in etc.

I dont have much sympathy with that woman given her husband earns more than twice my salary (58k!) and its been in all the papers how the gps got massive salary hikes last year.

What a load of tosh!
Show me 1 doctor earning £100,000 minimum and I'll show you 100 that earn £35-40k minimum.

And when you say 'doctors' are you only referring to GPs or also to hospital doctors, public health doctors etc etc?

Whilst it is grossly inaccurate to state that the minimum salary for doctor's is £100k many people think doctor's earn less than they do. To quote myself from an earlier post, over 50% (i.e. the majority) of GPs earn over £100,000, with the average GP salary now standing at £120,000. Salaried GP positions start at £55k, go up to 80k and involve working only 4 days per week.

To quote an NHS source, a typical graduate in medicine, after working for 5 years will be earning £48,000. F1 and F2 posts (the first two years after graduating) have a standard salary of just over £20k to just over £25k respectively. Whilst this sounds low, in reality this is heavily supplemented and most earn slightly under £30k in their first year.

What a load of tosh!
Show me 1 doctor earning £100,000 minimum and I'll show you 100 that earn £35-40k minimum.

And when you say 'doctors' are you only referring to GPs or also to hospital doctors, public health doctors etc etc?

The wage for doctors has not been included in this round of wage rises due to their recent previous fantastic pay scale of , as I said £100,000.
http://www.newmediamedicine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=428882

When I say minimum, I mean that the all have the capbility to grab more.

Your figures of £35-40k minimum, will only be for doctors not fully qualified, in junior post.

How can I be talking tosh, according to you, when you say that you can show me 100 doctors. How can you do that, you are just being silly.

The wage for doctors has not been included in this round of wage rises due to their recent previous fantastic pay scale of , as I said £100,000.
http://www.newmediamedicine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=428882

When I say minimum, I mean that the all have the capbility to grab more.

Your figures of £35-40k minimum, will only be for doctors not fully qualified, in junior post.

How can I be talking tosh, according to you, when you say that you can show me 100 doctors. How can you do that, you are just being silly.

All that URL shows is that £100,000 is the average salary which is massively different to a minimum. In addition £100,000 is the average for GPs only.

The current maximum salary for an NHS consultant is just over £95,000 (Note I say salary, this does not include additional earnings from private clinics etc. they may run). As for £35-40k, even senior registrars (i.e. fully qualified specialist doctors) can earn under £40k.

Maybe the answer is to start medical schools with one year of financial/business training, and the exam at the end of this year would be to show the student could manage his investments to earn 10,000 pounds a year. Then he can start what is now medical school. By the time he qualifies, he should be earning enough from investment to need NO SALARY from the NHS, but to practice medicine for the love of it.

All that URL shows is that £100,000 is the average salary which is massively different to a minimum. In addition £100,000 is the average for GPs only.

Thank you Twiglet!
I whole-heartedly agree that some GPs are simply in it for the money and are out to get as much as they can and yes I agree that this is wrong. But certainly not all GPs are like this. Also hospital doctors have lot less scope for extra earnings, targets etc especially if not at consultant level.
I'd expect a similar pay scale in any company where they have the equivalent of consultants i.e 5 years at University, possible post-graduate level training and 10-20 years of senior management. Why is £95k for a consultant Cardio-thoracic surgeon any worse than £95k for a senior accountant, solicitor or architect?

Because senior accountants and senior architects don't get anything like that (especially architects) and they don't get paid from the public purse.

Most doctors carry a skill level that would attract something between £40k-£50k in the commercial world. Anything more than that is down to the strength of their union (the BMA) and the naivety / gratitude of the general public.

QUOTE=AGB1;2021489]Thank you Twiglet!
I whole-heartedly agree that some GPs are simply in it for the money and are out to get as much as they can and yes I agree that this is wrong. But certainly not all GPs are like this. Also hospital doctors have lot less scope for extra earnings, targets etc especially if not at consultant level.
I'd expect a similar pay scale in any company where they have the equivalent of consultants i.e 5 years at University, possible post-graduate level training and 10-20 years of senior management. Why is £95k for a consultant Cardio-thoracic surgeon any worse than £95k for a senior accountant, solicitor or architect?[/QUOTE]

You are confusing me the way you flip back and forth with the figures and types of doctors. Your comment of Tosh
QUOTE AGB1,
"What a load of tosh!
Show me 1 doctor earning £100,000 minimum and I'll show you 100
that earn £35-40k minimum."

I have said that the lower paid your fig £35-40k would be for junior lower skilled practitioners.
The op asked the question "Are doctors getting greedy?

I believe yes they are, because as Tony has stated "Most doctors carry a skill level that would attract something between £40k-£50k in the commercial world. Anything more than that is down to the strength of their union (the BMA) and the naivety / gratitude of the general public".
Doctors have managed to get an incredible amount over and above their skill level, as doctors, some are also managing very successful businesses good luck and well done to them.

Whatif - All I'm contesting is your opening gambit that all doctor's minimum wages are now £100k. I think we've seen that this isnt the case.

Tony you sound like an NHS manager! You're not are you? *shudder*. As Twiglet says the max. consultant salary is ~£95k - many will be on £50-65k, which doesnt fall too far outside your estimate of 'something between £40k-£50k in the commercial world'.
Does anyone know what the minimum NHS manager salary is by any chance?

As Twiglet says the max. consultant salary is ~£95k - many will be on £50-65k, which doesnt fall too far outside your estimate of 'something between £40k-£50k in the commercial world'.
Does anyone know what the minimum NHS manager salary is by any chance?


A lot less than that. Also many of them have just lost their jobs just recently (e.g., my mum who no longer works at Rotherham General).

Hmmm...as a graduate on the NHS Graduate management scheme the potential earnings are thus:

'The average salary for first posts on leaving the Scheme is currently £26,000 - £31,000. Beyond that you are looking at possible future earnings of £60,000-£80,000 as a Director of Finance or HR Director of a large health organisation or £100,000+ as a Chief Executive'

http://www.bringingleadershiptolife.nhs.uk.

So starting salaries are similar to newly qualified doctors and potential earnings are roughly similar to consultant level posts.

Hmmm...as a graduate on the NHS Graduate management scheme the potential earnings are thus:

'The average salary for first posts on leaving the Scheme is currently £26,000 - £31,000. Beyond that you are looking at possible future earnings of £60,000-£80,000 as a Director of Finance or HR Director of a large health organisation or £100,000+ as a Chief Executive'

http://www.bringingleadershiptolife.nhs.uk.

So starting salaries are similar to newly qualified doctors and potential earnings are roughly similar to consultant level posts.

It's hardly surprising that the finance director of a large hospital would earn a good wack. I'd also be surprised if they didn't come from an accountancy background (if they don't that might explain the NHS' current problems). Most 'managers' will be, as you say, earning 25k to 30k.

On the other hand the average hospital will employ dozens of consultant level doctors and dozens more at junior level; there'll only be one finance director.

Check this out, bear in mind it is two years old.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4373519.stm

Note the "pay stakes.

Because senior accountants and senior architects don't get anything like that (especially architects) and they don't get paid from the public purse.

Most doctors carry a skill level that would attract something between £40k-£50k in the commercial world. Anything more than that is down to the strength of their union (the BMA) and the naivety / gratitude of the general public.

Define skill level. A "low skill architect" may be drawing designs for public toilets, etc. A "low skill doctor" however may be saving lives as a daily routine, administering potentially lethal drugs, bearing the burden of breaking bad news (telling someone they have cancer is never easy), ETC.

If an architect makes a mistake, a project may get set back. If a doctor makes a mistake, a patient may die. Responsibilities in the two lines of work are clearly different.

All my junior doctor friends have had to work ridiculous hours - 21 days in a row, working weekends too, is not unheard of - and not just number of hours, but very antisocial hours, eg. 8pm to 9am, all beyond their "official working hours". And don't think this ends when you go up the ladder. All hospital consultants still have to do on-call/ overnight medicine, holidays are very inflexible (dependent on your colleagues). Public holidays do not apply to hospital doctors. (Which is why I want to be a GP!). Admittedly, hours are getting better, but that just shows how bad it was before.

Each year, these senior doctor's salaries are actually going down with inflation. Consultant salary pay rises are fixed at £1000 per year, which is less than half the rate of inflation (2.7%) and I don't think wanting your wage to keep up with inflation is being greedy. GPs salaries have been frozen (0%). The "new" contract the government drew up has been beneficial to GPs financially, but this could easily change.

Welcome to the real world. All those issues are ones that everyone else puts up with every day of the week.. including saving lives, and doctors do make mistakes, and people do die, quite often. Like every profession, there are plenty of below average and mediocre doctors, just no poor doctors.

As I said earlier doctors and their union play heavily on exactly what you are playing on... public gratitude / naivety.

Welcome to the real world. All those issues are ones that everyone else puts up with every day of the week.. including saving lives,

care to explain? some examples to support your argument? I don't think everyone....

Apologies for not being entirely clear though. I wasn't suggesting that everyone was saving lives every day, but it's disingenuous to suggest that doctors are modern day saviours.

Many many people have equally (or more) qualified, responsible and difficult jobs, many of which involve saving lives. There are many many doctors that turn up to GP practice to spend most of the day dealing with old ladies swollen feet, and children's coughs... and get paid handsomely for it. They (as a profession) should quit moaning / telling us how wonderful they are.

As I said earlier doctors and their union play heavily on exactly what you are playing on... public gratitude / naivety.

I don't understand your point. I just told you why I think doctors earn every penny they get. How are the public being naive?

Because, as I have also said earlier, they have a skill level worth about £40k - £50k pa in the outside world.

Apologies for not being entirely clear though. I wasn't suggesting that everyone was saving lives every day, but it's disingenuous to suggest that doctors are modern day saviours.

Many many people have equally (or more) qualified, responsible and difficult jobs, many of which involve saving lives. There are many many doctors that turn up to GP practice to spend most of the day dealing with old ladies swollen feet, and children's coughs... and get paid handsomely for it. They (as a profession) should quit moaning / telling us how wonderful they are.

ok i getcha

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one :)

I have no idea about law/ finance/ business, but I do know about the medical world having spent the last 6 years studying and witnessing it, and (hopefully) ,in a few months' time, practising it. I can honestly say that a lot of the doctors I know are amazing. They know an incredible amount, they do extraordinary things everyday and they are usually very modest about it too.

I can understand why Tony has such a view of what GPs do. A lot of GP work is about prevention, prevention is better than cure, but prevention is mostly invisible. They also have to be a Jack of all trades in medicine. A GP must differentiate between the child who just coughs because of an upper respiratory viral infection and the child who coughs because he has pneumonia/ asthma/ cystic fibrosis. And in a cash strap NHS, where not everyone who is seen can have an MRI scan, a GP's clinical skills get you amazing value for money. Most doctors would agree that GPs have a tough job and the new contract really just puts their wage up to what it should be.

To be fair I don't have a problem with doctors earning what they do. I do get fed up with all the moaning that they do though, and I do think that it's very unfair when many allied professions that are equally if not more skilled (scientists for example) are paid pennies by comparison.

When it comes from the public purse I do think that there should be some method that is a little more egalitarian than just recognising those that the public interfaces with... and becomes grateful to. ;)

The op asked are doctors getting greedy.

Well as the middle range of earnings is approx £100,000 with top doctors wanting and getting a lot more.
This comes across to most of us as being a tad greedy.

It has been pointed out that some doctors are on a lot less than £100,000 well yes you will get paid less as in any profession for the obvious reasons. Doctors will get paid the higher amounts eventually in their career if they are half decent.
Other professions fully decent won't get half as much no matter how good or hard working /long hours that they do.
Most people want to earn well, doctors are earning well yet they constantly want more. Being a doctor seems now to be less about the calling of helping people and saving lives, and more about status, and how much more than others one can earn.

I do think that it's very unfair when many allied professions that are equally if not more skilled (scientists for example) are paid pennies by comparison.

Hear hear! Even the medics in training are appalled at what we scientists earn when they come to work for a bit in our lab. I'll have spent 7-8 years training to be a specialist by the time I finish the PhD and look forward to a glorious salary of.....£25k, a lot of which will be used to pay off my more than substantial student debt. We'd never presume to ask for a GP's salary, but sometimes I'd like to see just what would happen to medical progress if we stopped our research!

It has been pointed out that some doctors are on a lot less than £100,000 well yes you will get paid less as in any profession for the obvious reasons. Doctors will get paid the higher amounts eventually in their career if they are half decent.
Other professions fully decent won't get half as much no matter how good or hard working /long hours that they do.
Most people want to earn well, doctors are earning well yet they constantly want more. Being a doctor seems now to be less about the calling of helping people and saving lives, and more about status, and how much more than others I one earn.

Well this year they (at least GPs anyway) got a pay rise of 0% this year which is in effect a 4% pay cut. So it seems the goverment is waking up to the discrepancy in their salaries perhaps.

Most people want to earn well, doctors are earning well yet they constantly want more. Being a doctor seems now to be less about the calling of helping people and saving lives, and more about status, and how much more than others I one earn.

I completely disagree.
Granted being a doctor is still a respectable job, but I don't know any of my fellow doctors in training to be attracted by the 'status' as a sole factor.
We're motivated, hard working individuals who are striving through 5-6 long years to get through a very demanding course, working long hours without an income.
When we qualify, we have to deal with lot of pointless and limiting bureaucracy and red tape-so much so, that the majority of our time is spent dealing with non-clinical duties.
Oh and junior/middle grade doctors are not overpaid if you look at the hours they actually work.

I have no problem with the salaries that GP's earn. To be all things, to all people, potentially at all times, is not something most of us could comprehend.

It's a tremendously difficult job.

I'm not a medic, but I know we'd be a hell of a sorry sight without them.

Not a doctor I'm afraid, but a (former) nurse, who knows a bit about agency work. I was made redundant from the NHS eleven years ago, and was told at the time that I was costing too much because of all my experience, and that they would be able to replace me with two and a bit newly trained nurses. Not that they could, there weren't any those days. So I joined an agency, and was able to go back to the same job the next night, earning me less, but costing the hospital a lot lot more.

I abandoned nursing two years ago; at that point I would take home £120 from a twelve-and-a-half hour nightshift in ITU (the agency were taking something in excess of £300 commission). The vast majority of agency workers, doctors and nurses, do it because the NHS doesn't want to employ them directly, preferring to use them only when they need them.

Agency staff have no security of employment whatever, and live with that additional stress as well as whatever goes with their job. Because of the way the NHS is run, bouncing from each short of staff crisis to short of money crisis, there can be long periods when there's no work at all.

Me? Glad to see the end of 35 years of stress, of feeling undervalued, and the almost total absence of a social life due to the hours (very unsocial). I didn't really realise what I had missed there until I stopped. Really happy now, fulfilled in work that carries no stress whatever, even if earning a lot less.

I completely disagree.
Granted being a doctor is still a respectable job, but I don't know any of my fellow doctors in training to be attracted by the 'status' as a sole factor.
We're motivated, hard working individuals who are striving through 5-6 long years to get through a very demanding course, working long hours without an income.
When we qualify, we have to deal with lot of pointless and limiting bureaucracy and red tape-so much so, that the majority of our time is spent dealing with non-clinical duties.
Oh and junior/middle grade doctors are not overpaid if you look at the hours they actually work.

You say that you completely disagree, but fail to mention one vital point about how much doctors pay is and why they keep wanting more, even when they are already high earners.

I am not naive enough to not realise that we all want more, but doctors are supposed to be in a profession that is more about aiding others.
My point is that most doctors after the intial years of learning and practice do earn good money. So my assertion remains the same, That some doctors are becoming greedy.
You being a doctor might very well have a different point of view to me. if I was a doctor I may well hold your view; but I truly hope that I would not.

The occupations with the highest earnings in 2006 were ‘Health professionals', (median pay of full-time employees of £1,038 a week), followed by ‘Corporate managers’ (£688 ) and ‘Science and technology professionals’ (£662). The lowest paid of all full-time employees were ‘Sales occupations’, at £259 a week.

source (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285)So: medics earn a fortune - they save lives, so fair enough. Corporate managers also earn heaps - they manage companies that keep millions off the dole, so again, fair enough. Third comes those working in science and technical positions - anything involving numbers or technology the average person relies on but is too unskilled to do for themselves.

Last we have people who try to sell us television channels.

I see no problem with either the order or the amount of renumeration for any of these occupations.

You say that you completely disagree, but fail to mention one vital point about how much doctors pay is and why they keep wanting more, even when they are already high earners.

I am not naive enough to not realise that we all want more, but doctors are supposed to be in a profession that is more about aiding others.
My point is that most doctors after the intial years of learning and practice do earn good money. So my assertion remains the same, That some doctors are becoming greedy.
You being a doctor might very well have a different point of view to me. if I was a doctor I may well hold your view; but I truly hope that I would not.

The higher positions- (consultant and GP grades) do earn around a minimum of £60,000. This is after a decade in the system.
I do however think that other healthcare professionals should get a higher income, more in line with doctors.
It is important to consider that the loop holes were created by the government, when the GP contracts were negotiated in the 90s. Basically, the health secretary didn’t think that GPs would hit the targets set upon them. However, GP practises more than hit the targets, and so accordingly got a lot more money.
Even the health secretary has admitted this disastrous mistake. In light of the increases in wages (which was due to the mistake, NOT GPs demanding more, doctors have accepted no increase in their income this year. This will continue happening for a few years I reckon, until the salaries balance out).

Ultimately you hit the nail on the head, everyone wants more money (admit it or not, we’re all greedy). Medicine is an altruistic career in a sense, but it is also a job.
Also bear in mind that doctors come from academically strong backgrounds, and so are privileged enough to choose practically any career they want to. There are many ways of being richer MUCH quicker than going into medicine, so there has to be some passion to become a doctor and help people in need.

The higher positions- (consultant and GP grades) do earn around a minimum of £60,000. This is after a decade in the system.
What does that mean?

What does that mean?

Sorry, I meant that being a doctor doesn’t automatically mean you earn big bucks. As a junior doctor post graduation, you earn around £22,000 on average. You do 58 hours a week (going down to 48 hours after 2009).
The pay goes up slowly as you become more experienced, from senior house officer (3-5 years) to specialist registrar (5-7 years), and finally consultant/ GP level.

Sorry, I meant that being a doctor doesn’t automatically mean you earn big bucks. As a junior doctor post graduation, you earn around £22,000 on average. You do 58 hours a week (going down to 48 hours after 2009).
The pay goes up slowly as you become more experienced, from senior house officer (3-5 years) to specialist registrar (5-7 years), and finally consultant/ GP level.

The £22,000 salary is misleading. As mentioned in an earlier post, whilst this is the basic salary the average F1/F2 earnings are £30k with the allowances that are added on for the hours you mention.

I think dentists (boo hiss!) are getting off lightly in this thread...Whatif wewin havent you got anything to say about them? Surely something ?

The £22,000 salary is misleading. As mentioned in an earlier post, whilst this is the basic salary the average F1/F2 earnings are £30k with the allowances that are added on for the hours you mention.

http://www.bmjcareers.com/cgi-bin/section.pl?sn=salary

It depends on how intense the speciality is, but £30k for an F1 is certainly not common at all.

http://www.bmjcareers.com/cgi-bin/section.pl?sn=salary

It depends on how intense the speciality is, but £30k for an F1 is certainly not common at all.

The link is very misleading. As I said, a doctor doesn't only get basic salary (which is all that link reflects) they also get a banding supplement on top of 20% to 80%, with 50% being the most common, which does make the average house officer earnings around £30k.

Sorry, I meant that being a doctor doesn’t automatically mean you earn big bucks. As a junior doctor post graduation, you earn around £22,000 on average. You do 58 hours a week (going down to 48 hours after 2009).
The pay goes up slowly as you become more experienced, from senior house officer (3-5 years) to specialist registrar (5-7 years), and finally consultant/ GP level.

Ah ok :) I'm not being disparaging to doctors as a profession, including those still in training such as junior / house / some registrars. In fact I've a few pals who are medics (1 a nationally respected psychiatric, another a highly qualified and very well paid GP / sports specialist, another an anaesthetist, and another a junior house man) and a couple who are nurses (1 newly qualified this year, and another an experienced midwife who's bonkers BTW ;)). I guess that my beef is that there is far too much moaning among the 'front line' medical profession, mainly from the union (BMA / RCN) when they aren't actually badly paid at all.

This topic is very political because the general public as a whole feel indebted to those very front liners (because they looked after that granny, etc, etc) and the unions play on this to their own benefit with their members a second best.

The real (commercial?) world is actually an interesting and challenging place that weeds out the chaff, and we shouldn't kid ourselves that the medical profession is wonderful when it is chock full of also-rans with qualifications but not talent who sit along side some very talented and able individuals.

RCN is a different story isn't it, there aren't any nurses making over 100k/year, and the starting salary for a qualified nurse is very low for the responsibilities they have.

But on the flip side they get paid to train unlike 99% of other professions.

Paid to train? No way, unless you count working in junior posts after completing their degrees, just like everyone else.

Paid to train? No way, unless you count working in junior posts after completing their degrees, just like everyone else.

Nursing/Midwifery students get an NHS bursary of just over £7000 a year during their degree. It isn't comparable to a salary but is more than most other people get, although after leaving job prospects are currently low and salaries do not usually increase comparably over the course of a career.

Sorry Twiglet, didn't turm back a page and see you were talking about nurses; thought we were still on about doctors.
When I trained as a nurse things were very different. 48 hours work a week (plus the extra 10 hours beyond that which was expected of you) with a take home of around ten pounds a month.
The bursary scheme is preposterous; they should provide better wages for trained staff instead.

And sorry Tony

But on the flip side they get paid to train unlike 99% of other professions.

There are numerous incentives to get people to teach, so it's not the only profession where people are paid to train...

Back in the mid seventies, teaching, nursing and policing were all paid roughly the same salaries. Since then nursing has consistently been given smaller increases than both of those, despite requiring more training than the policing (less than teaching to be fair) and I think being equally important.

I think dentists (boo hiss!) are getting off lightly in this thread...Whatif wewin havent you got anything to say about them? Surely something ?


I have to go to the dentist this coming week, I think dentist deserve a pay rise to almost match doctors pay .:)

I work with medics... all extremely skilled, intelligent, hard working and caring people who I honestly believe deserve everything they get financially.

What I don't think is right is that the academics that they work alongside often know more about what they're doing and get paid a lot less. Admittedly there isn't as much direct responsibility in none-clinical roles where patients' lives and livelihoods aren't dependent upon your competence and attentiveness, but I think that the pay difference is still too great. Especially when you consider that without academic biological / medical research and drug development, doctors would still be prescribing leeches as a cure-all!

Academics also generally have to train for a longer period and having talked to medical students who do an intercalated BSc in biology, the workload for biology and related subjects is much higher than that on a medical course. Having done a biology degree, I'd agree. To be fair though, I enjoy it, the money isn't that bad (even if it doesn't necessarily completely reflect the training time, difficulty and required skill level of the job), I'm currently being paid a generous amount to train (well, work and get a qualification, effectively) and I'm not going to complain too much!

The link is very misleading. As I said, a doctor doesn't only get basic salary (which is all that link reflects) they also get a banding supplement on top of 20% to 80%, with 50% being the most common, which does make the average house officer earnings around £30k.

Touché; the link did refer to basic salaries, but it’s important to remember that some hospital (such as Chesterfield) only allow doctors work a maximum of 40 hours and so those quoted figures are what they would get paid.

You talk about £30k as if it is excessive for working 58 hours a week. If you work it out, it equates to around £10 an hour. Now I’m not saying that’s insufficient, but I don’t think we’re greedy for it.

I have to go to the dentist this coming week, I think dentist deserve a pay rise to almost match doctors pay .:)

Dentists earn more and work less hours than doctors (but we still love them :D )


Getting back to the original post, a large proportion of consultants work for the private sector as well as the NHS. This tops up their salary, but as long as their NHS duties are not affected (which they aren’t for the most part) there is nothing wrong with this.
I have not heard of ANY doctor complaining about his or her salary working in the NHS. Most, if not all agree that they are paid well.
Obviously that's based on my experiences, and I'm fascinated to see what you read Lickszz. It would disappoint me if there were complaints of poor pay.

Doctors? Greedy? surely some mistake!

Never forget they only joined the NHS because Bevan (Minister at the time) agreed in the words used at the time to "stuff their pockets with gold", according to my ex father in law (also ex GP). JJ