Well well at last the goverment have come clean and told us they think we have maybe 570,000 illegals living here.
Do you remember when at the election Blair said he could not answer how many were here,funny how now the election is over he has a answer??
So nearly one in every hundred here is a illegal,what a shambles we have got into ,and how crooked are the goverment we have for not telling us the truth earlier.
I think they knew they would give votes to the BNP and the Tory party so they coverd it up.
Bent and corrupt just about sums them up.

Roy... so what?

Is that all - one in a hundred - cool - that's hardly any!
Thanx Roy for clearing that up.... I thought there'd be many more. So plenty more room for others and their mates... cool:clap:

I think these figures have been fudged.

The times or some broadsheet published a very similar figure pre election and they (the government) rubbished them!

Now their figures are the same .... what’s the bet the figures are higher and Whitehall thought i t would just go along with the papers on this one as in reality the situation is much worse!

This really gets on my goat. How can the government give a precise figure when it comes to illegal immigrants? How do propose the government keep track of the numbers?! Maybe they can put a register at all ports etc asking for all possible illegal immigrants to declare they are here. The very reason they are classed as illegal is cos they come here without the necessary documents to live or work and they are hardly gonna declare to an immigration officer of their intentions are they!!!

Only 1 in every 100?

I wonder how many people were taken in by the scare-mongerers and wasted their votes on BNP or Tories because of it at the election!

Hang on Patchy,this is only illegals,it does not include 750,000 asylum seekers who are here and either been accepted or refused permision to stay.
So the 1 in a 100 is not the whole picture.

Originally posted by royjames
Hang on Patchy,this is only illegals,it does not include 750,000 asylum seekers who are here and either been accepted or refused permision to stay.
So the 1 in a 100 is not the whole picture.

But if the illegals are here illegally, then surely the government can't be expected to know exactly how many are here? Or is the government secretly importing them for some sinister plot?;)

Errr.....

That's half a million people or thereabuts that are in this country that almost by definition are not contributing to their side of the social contract.

I assume that if these figures are being produced by HMG and are similar to those put forward (and decried as wrong) a few weeks ago then we should probably say they are a 'fair' estimate.

That's half a million people who are not on the radar as far as police, social services, tax, customs, whoever are concerned.

That is something to be worried about, in my opinion.

Joe

Originally posted by JoePritchard
Errr.....

That's half a million people or thereabuts that are in this country that almost by definition are not contributing to their side of the social contract.

I assume that if these figures are being produced by HMG and are similar to those put forward (and decried as wrong) a few weeks ago then we should probably say they are a 'fair' estimate.

That's half a million people who are not on the radar as far as police, social services, tax, customs, whoever are concerned.

That is something to be worried about, in my opinion.

Joe nah, be rate!

Originally posted by JoePritchard
Errr.....

That's half a million people or thereabuts that are in this country that almost by definition are not contributing to their side of the social contract.

I assume that if these figures are being produced by HMG and are similar to those put forward (and decried as wrong) a few weeks ago then we should probably say they are a 'fair' estimate.

That's half a million people who are not on the radar as far as police, social services, tax, customs, whoever are concerned.

That is something to be worried about, in my opinion.

Joe

But surely if HMG knows roughly how many are here then they must have some idea where they are living or where they are working. Maybe they should do spot checks in the kitchens of takeaways. :thumbsup:

Originally posted by JoePritchard

That's half a million people who are not on the radar as far as police, social services, tax, customs, whoever are concerned.

That is something to be worried about, in my opinion.

Joe

And TB wants you to worry about it....almost in the same breath he remided us that ID cards might cure the problem :D

Interesting that our illustrious leader should have the same initials as the acronym for a debilating disease that was recently all but eliminated in the UK but is now on the increase again :P

Originally posted by royjames
Hang on Patchy,this is only illegals,it does not include 750,000 asylum seekers who are here and either been accepted or refused permision to stay.
So the 1 in a 100 is not the whole picture.

Most people aren't concerned about the doctors and nurses etc etc who have been granted permision to stay and work here. And if an asylum seeker is refused permision to stay and does a disappearance, that turns him/her into an "illegal". So I don't know why you say the 1 in a 100 estimate isn't the whole picture.

the reason the government can put a rough estimate on the number of illegals is probably due to the fact that a lot of them are still here after having their cases refused... there aren't many of them that are sent back to their country, which IMHO is wrong, if we decide they shouldn't be here or we don't need them we should send them back and put a big rubber stamp saying "this person shall not enter the United Kingdom for 5 years"

I'm sorry, but as much as I have no problem with people fleeing death and war, I do have a problem with people that come here to sponge off our country and grow large families here, hide around for X number of years then claim resendency under the law that says if they are here for X number of years we can't refuse them (I believe its 8 years)

we have some stupid immigration laws, I'm no BNP follower but I think stricter policies need to be in place so we have only the people that can give our country a powerful workforce, and areas for people who need our help... we have enough homeless people of our own, we dont need more of these people sneaking in and taking more houses!

xafier, - OT I know, - but if you interested in national databases you might be like to read this article in the Times today ;)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1674643,00.html

Originally posted by xafier
the reason the government can put a rough estimate on the number of illegals is probably due to the fact that a lot of them are still here after having their cases refused... there aren't many of them that are sent back to their country, which IMHO is wrong

I agree that people who are turned down should be sent back to where they came from, but Roy claims that the "illegals" are seperate from the "refused". I would dispute his claim.

I also agree that it is wrong for people to be able to claim automatic citizenship if they have managed to hide in the UK for a certain number of years. This is the first I have heard of that though, so I would be interested in seeing where you heard of this law.

Originally posted by JoePritchard
Errr.....

That's half a million people or thereabuts that are in this country that almost by definition are not contributing to their side of the social contract.

I assume that if these figures are being produced by HMG and are similar to those put forward (and decried as wrong) a few weeks ago then we should probably say they are a 'fair' estimate.

That's half a million people who are not on the radar as far as police, social services, tax, customs, whoever are concerned.

That is something to be worried about, in my opinion.

Joe


Well said Joe. I can't believe so many people are willing to dismiss an amount of people that would more than fill Sheffield, presumably just to appear PC. It IS worrying that over half a million people can get into our country and not contribute anything to it.

Originally posted by Greybeard

Interesting that our illustrious leader should have the same initials as the acronym for a debilating disease that was recently all but eliminated in the UK but is now on the increase again :P

And that's a related issue too..

Originally posted by t020
And that's a related issue too..

Which is why I mentioned it ;)

The incidence of TB amongst legal and illegal immigrants is alarming the medical profession. The main worry of course is that illegal immigrants will not seek advice or treatment.

A ticking time bomb that ID cards won't defuse.

Originally posted by Patchy
I agree that people who are turned down should be sent back to where they came from, but Roy claims that the "illegals" are seperate from the "refused". I would dispute his claim.

I also agree that it is wrong for people to be able to claim automatic citizenship if they have managed to hide in the UK for a certain number of years. This is the first I have heard of that though, so I would be interested in seeing where you heard of this law.

theres some stuff on this site about it:

http://www.globalvisas.com/page52_indefinite_leave_to_remain_in_the_uk.aspx

although thats not a government site, and I'm sure its a lot less than 14yrs illegally... I know the actual way they can do it isn't a technical law but some sort of loop hole the government cant fix without doing a lot of changes to our immigration...

I've worked on european immigration myself until last week and now how badly the figures come out compared with the truth... and my mum works on normal immigration and I know she's had cases of people illegally staying but having to approve them due to this law/loop-hole :?

[edit]

http://www.globalvisas.com/page61__long_term_residency_visa.aspx

is a better link... still trying to find official stuff on a government site... but they're HORRIBLE for finding stuff on :(

OK, I bow my head in shame and stand corrected...

if someone stays here for 10 years legally for whatever reasons they can claim full resedency... or 14 years illegally they can also too...

dont believe me? read the pdf from the government site:

http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/ind/en/home/laws___policy/policy_instructions/table_of_contents/chapter_18_-_the_long.html

enjoy :)

Originally posted by xafier
OK, I bow my head in shame and stand corrected...

if someone stays here for 10 years legally for whatever reasons they can claim full resedency... or 14 years illegally they can also too...

dont believe me? read the pdf from the government site:

http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/ind/en/home/laws___policy/policy_instructions/table_of_contents/chapter_18_-_the_long.html

enjoy :)

I think the law for people who have lived and contributed here for 10 years is very reasonable, but I think if someone has lived here illegally for even 50 years they should still be deported when they are found.

As I said earlier, if the government has a rough idea of how many people are here illegally then I think they must have some idea of how to find where they are.

Originally posted by xafier
OK, I bow my head in shame and stand corrected...

if someone stays here for 10 years legally for whatever reasons they can claim full resedency... or 14 years illegally they can also too...

dont believe me? read the pdf from the government site:

http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/ind/en/home/laws___policy/policy_instructions/table_of_contents/chapter_18_-_the_long.html

enjoy :)

you can claim full residency (legals) after 4 or 5 years if my memory serves me correctly

Originally posted by Patchy
I think the law for people who have lived and contributed here for 10 years is very reasonable, but I think if someone has lived here illegally for even 50 years they should still be exported when they are found.

oh, now this is where your totally missing the plot my friend... I'll give you an example...

hot Philipeeno woman comes to UK, marry's old man, has a marriage interview... find out its a sham marriage to try and get UK passport... entry denied... she then decides to do a nursing degree and training... 4 - 6 years... does another 4+ years on another course... as soon as she's got her 10 years, claims resedency and brings over her imidiate family and starts the process over with her family that aren't imediate living with them and making similar plans...

oh and, this is an example of what does actually go on, some people come here solely and study so they can become residents, or they'll try any way possible to rank up the 10 years, or if they're lucky get their 4 years of a work permit and get granted ILR (indefinite leave to remain)

[edit]

Originally posted by robbie
you can claim full residency (legals) after 4 or 5 years if my memory serves me correctly

yeah, if you've got a work permit and your job is classified as a job shortage or specialist skill!

Originally posted by xafier
oh, now this is where your totally missing the plot my friend

Ok whatever you say. I can't argue with a comment like that. :loopy:

I'm suprised at how low this figure is, especially when you look at just how many Australian theme pubs we have now in this country:

http://www.walkaboutinns.com/012venues.html

Originally posted by Patchy
Ok whatever you say. I can't argue with a comment like that. :loopy:

haha, but seriously, you really would be amazed at what some of them try to live in our country...

my mum's had to do interviews with 20yr old women and 70yr old men :? its just WRONG lol, although I'm sure the old man aint complaining ;) haha guess suppose she's doing a service to the country... keeping this old timer off the buses cus he's in bed for a week after every time she lets him have sex... lol

Originally posted by Disco_Cat
I'm suprised at how low this figure is, especially when you look at just how many Australian theme pubs we have now in this country:

http://www.walkaboutinns.com/012venues.html

Do Australians count?

But don't get me started ... Walkabout have totally wrecked the chapel on Carver Street, they appear to have totally disregarded what the magistrates said when they granted them planning permission! :rant:

Originally posted by xafier
my mum's had to do interviews with 20yr old women and 70yr old men :? its just WRONG lol, although I'm sure the old man aint complaining ;) haha guess suppose she's doing a service to the country... keeping this old timer off the buses cus he's in bed for a week after every time she lets him have sex... lol

IF that is true, surely it should be confidential? You should report you "mum" for discussing her clients with you. :confused:

Originally posted by royjames

So nearly one in every hundred here is a illegal,what a shambles we have got into ,

I thought the BNP were opposed to ID cards? If they are then why on earth are they helping spread the governments pro-card hysteria/propaganda for them.

Could it be the BNP aren’t the most politically savvy of individuals.

Originally posted by Patchy
IF that is true, surely it should be confidential? You should report you "mum" for discussing her clients with you. :confused:

and report the rest of the home office while I'm at it? :hihi: its not like she names names or case numbers, storys are storys... most people sign some sort of company disclosure in their contracts... doesnt mean people never talk about their work outside of work :P

Originally posted by xafier
and report the rest of the home office while I'm at it? :hihi: its not like she names names or case numbers, storys are storys... most people sign some sort of company disclosure in their contracts... doesnt mean people never talk about their work outside of work :P

I think you'll find that's the Official Secrets Act you spy. Bet you've been sleeping with Russian women as well ;)

Originally posted by robbie
I think you'll find that's the Official Secrets Act you spy. Bet you've been sleeping with Russian women as well ;)

pfft, they didnt pay me enough to make me keep secrets :P and whats wrong with Russian women? :o I like a nice hairy woman! :hihi:

Originally posted by xafier
and report the rest of the home office while I'm at it? :hihi: its not like she names names or case numbers, storys are storys... most people sign some sort of company disclosure in their contracts... doesnt mean people never talk about their work outside of work :P

Exactly! Like you say, "Stories are stories". Anyone could come on here and say "my mum says....". If she really has told you what you say she has then I think she is in the wrong job.

Full story on the numbers here :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4637273.stm

numbers of persons could range from 310 - 570,000

Originally posted by Patchy
Do Australians count?


I'd have thought an Australian working here illegally would count as an illegal immigrant, although for some reason they don't seem to attract as much hostility from people usually very anti any immigrants let alone ones working illegally.

Immigrants? coming over here? Taking our jobs, homes and wives? (mmm, sarcasm..)

I don't see what all the fuss is about. Fair enough, the illegal ones may not be contributing anything, but then they're not really taking anything; they can't sign on, use the NHS etc. And they still buy stuff, so are at least paying vat!

They've come over here from god knows what situation, to scrape a living doing anything they can. I'm sure it's no picnic for them to be earning probably far less than minimum wage and living in squaller accomodation. But it's obviously better than from where they came.

Has the country fallen or about to collapse as a result of these illegal immigrants? NO. I can't see how it can make any impact at all, it's insignificant.

Originally posted by hade
Immigrants? coming over here? Taking our jobs, homes and wives? (mmm, sarcasm..)

I don't see what all the fuss is about. Fair enough, the illegal ones may not be contributing anything, but then they're not really taking anything; they can't sign on, use the NHS etc. And they still buy stuff, so are at least paying vat!

They've come over here from god knows what situation, to scrape a living doing anything they can. I'm sure it's no picnic for them to be earning probably far less than minimum wage and living in squaller accomodation. But it's obviously better than from where they came.

Has the country fallen or about to collapse as a result of these illegal immigrants? NO. I can't see how it can make any impact at all, it's insignificant.

How are they living to be able to fund these things they buy and pay VAT on do you think? The cash has got to come from somewhere and it CAN'T be legitimate or else they'd be found out. At best they're doing cash in hand jobs and (obviously) not paying any income tax or NI on it. A lot however will be dealing drugs, prostituting, pimping, human trafficking, etc. On top of that they're also contributing to health problems, bringing diseases previously wiped out in this country such as TB. Also, 570,000 is 1% of our population and larger than the population of a city the size of Sheffield! I can't see how this is insignificant. Furthermore, this figure doesn't have a cap - it will keep growing. Where would you draw the line before YOU would consider it significant? 5% of the population? 10%?!

Originally posted by t020
How are they living to be able to fund these things they buy and pay VAT on do you think? The cash has got to come from somewhere and it CAN'T be legitimate or else they'd be found out. At best they're doing cash in hand jobs and (obviously) not paying any income tax or NI on it. A lot however will be dealing drugs, prostituting, pimping, human trafficking, etc. On top of that they're also contributing to health problems, bringing diseases previously wiped out in this country such as TB. Also, 570,000 is 1% of our population and larger than the population of a city the size of Sheffield! I can't see how this is insignificant. Furthermore, this figure doesn't have a cap - it will keep growing. Where would you draw the line before YOU would consider it significant? 5% of the population? 10%?!

You're talking about these people as if they were scum, how dare you assume that "a lot" are involved with drug dealing, human trafficking, prostitution and pimping! Yeah, a handfull. I'm sure there are more of our own british people involved in these activities, tax dodgers, dole scroungers, pimps, dealers.
Yes, they'll probably doing cash in hand jobs, probably for two quid an hour, and who cares if they're not paying income tax or NI, they shou;dn't have to on such low incomes, there's plenty of our native people hanging around sheffield who've never done a day's work in their lives, don't intend to and rake in the state benefits, and probably more than 1% of the population.

Absolutely! I've got a lot more of an issue with our 'fellow countrymen' who fiddle the benefits system... and then complain about asylum seekers taking their jobs!

An illegal immigrant sends a postcard back to his folks:

"Hi mum and dad, i've arrived in Britain.

Journey was good, packed in the back of a truck for 20 hours, 30 degrees, no food or water, two dead.

Got myself some lovely digs, my room mates are nice, all eight of them.
not managed to find work yet, but I begged a pound yesterday and bought a loaf of bread, that should do me for the week. Going to see a man tomorrow about a job, he said he'll give me ten pounds for working fourteen hours non stop.

The neighbourhood are friendly enough only been beat up twice so far.

Anyway, tell my cousins to come over because this is the land of milk and honey"

Yeah, t020, I'm sure the numbers will keep growing, and we'll all have to move over to where they've come from!

One effect that having any illegal immigrants here has --------and it doesn't matter where they come from----------is that their presence tends to depress wages. Why is the minimumm wage so low ? Well , a lot of employers find they can get away with paying even less to illegal workers.
Since the industrial revolution , there's nothing employers love more than a surplus of people willing to work for low wages. The only time the working-classes in this country have made significant progress in their living standards is when there has been a shortage of labour -----or just about the right number.
When the indigenous population see people arriving here and working for less than the minimumm wage , they don't sit down counting and worrying exactly how many illegal immigrants there are. They just know it's wrong in principle and they know from bitter experience that a cheap labour pool is bad news for them, whatever contributions they have made to society in the past.

I've got to support T020 here, with the added concern about national security. Whilst I have no axe to grind with those who seek to come to this country to have a better way of life and contribute by whatever means they can, I believe they must do this openly and in accordance with this country's laws. Such laws are there for good reasons and it worries me that no-one can have any idea what the illegals are actually up to, however sinister it may be.

Treat those staying here illegally as anyone else who commits an illegal act would be treated (and then return them from whence they came).

Originally posted by hade
You're talking about these people as if they were scum, how dare you assume that "a lot" are involved with drug dealing, human trafficking, prostitution and pimping! Yeah, a handfull. I'm sure there are more of our own british people involved in these activities, tax dodgers, dole scroungers, pimps, dealers.
Yes, they'll probably doing cash in hand jobs, probably for two quid an hour, and who cares if they're not paying income tax or NI, they shou;dn't have to on such low incomes, there's plenty of our native people hanging around sheffield who've never done a day's work in their lives, don't intend to and rake in the state benefits, and probably more than 1% of the population.


So what you're saying is that because of where these people have come from, they should be above our law and free to do as they please? I don't talk about them as if they were scum, but you have to realise money they spend comes from somewhere and a lot of it will be from criminal activities, and as I said, at best, tax dodging employment. I'll ask again - when does the problem, for you, become significant? You don't think that a population larger than Sheffield is significant, so when would YOU draw the line? Would you consider it a problem if 20% of our population were tax dodging (at best) asylum seekers illegally living in the country?

Originally posted by t020
How are they living to be able to fund these things they buy and pay VAT on do you think? The cash has got to come from somewhere and it CAN'T be legitimate or else they'd be found out. At best they're doing cash in hand jobs and (obviously) not paying any income tax or NI on it. A lot however will be dealing drugs, prostituting, pimping, human trafficking, etc. On top of that they're also contributing to health problems, bringing diseases previously wiped out in this country such as TB. Also, 570,000 is 1% of our population and larger than the population of a city the size of Sheffield! I can't see how this is insignificant. Furthermore, this figure doesn't have a cap - it will keep growing. Where would you draw the line before YOU would consider it significant? 5% of the population? 10%?!

I presume in this rant you're referring to non-white immigration?

I was listening to that bastion of the establishment radio 4 a couple of days ago who were saying that we actually need more immigration to fill the skills/personel shortage which is becoming worse with our steadily aging population - perhaps they should provide an amnesty to illigal immigrants and assylum seekers so long as they register as being here and do a job of work? Voila two hefty political albatrosses killed at one go!

Originally posted by t020
You don't think that a population larger than Sheffield is significant, so when would YOU draw the line? Would you consider it a problem if 20% of our population were tax dodging (at best) asylum seekers illegally living in the country?

It's interesting you should pluck a figure of 20% out of the air, as this is exactly the percentage of illegal immigrants in Australia who happen to originate from either the USA or Britain. The SCUMBAGS!!!

FYI - the Home Office estimate of 430,000 persons equates to approx 0.7% of the population. In the US there are believed to be 7 million illegals, which is 2.5% of their population...

http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/ind/en/home/news/press_releases/Sizing_the_Unathorised_Migrant_Population.html

Full report on the unauthorised migrant population in UK can be viewed here :

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs05/rdsolr2905.pdf

Originally posted by rtapper
FYI - the Home Office estimate of 430,000 persons equates to approx 0.7% of the population. In the US there are believed to be 7 million illegals, which is 2.5% of their population...

http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/ind/en/home/news/press_releases/Sizing_the_Unathorised_Migrant_Population.html

Full report on the unauthorised migrant population in UK can be viewed here :

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs05/rdsolr2905.pdf This country depends on illegals to do jobs for below minimum wage, no health insurance, long hours, no safety regulations etc, etc, etc. It is not an easy life but probably better than their previous existence for some people who come here without the proper papers.

Originally posted by Patchy
I agree that people who are turned down should be sent back to where they came from, but Roy claims that the "illegals" are seperate from the "refused". I would dispute his claim.

I also agree that it is wrong for people to be able to claim automatic citizenship if they have managed to hide in the UK for a certain number of years. This is the first I have heard of that though, so I would be interested in seeing where you heard of this law. I just wish Roy would stop mentioning the BNP and people VOTING for them, it's scaring me:|

On a related sidenote, a lot of illegal immigrants were causing alot of trouble in a dump that is known as Plumstead in south London, unfortunately, the Met constabulary could not do anything as they were allowed to do what they like as British laws (apparently) do not apply to them.

Perhaps that is a brilliant illustration of varying people's viewpoints throughout this thread?

:)

Originally posted by Greenback
I illegal immigrants in Australia who happen to originate from either the USA or Britain. The SCUMBAGS!!!

Interestingly, many Britains are moving to Australia/NZ as they are sick of the ever-increasing amounts of illegal folk entering Britain.

Many of our "top people" are whizzing off to Aus/NZ and earning very well over there.

:)

British laws apply to everyone in britain. Except diplomats.

Interestingly, the largest number of immigrants in london is australians. Also, many australians are pretty angry about the amount of brits 'taking their jobs' - as are the spanish.

Thats when anti-immigration becomes racist - when you're not bothered about white illegal immigrants, like poles and aussies, but you are about asian and africans.

Originally posted by amhudson119
On a related sidenote, a lot of illegal immigrants were causing alot of trouble in a dump that is known as Plumstead in south London, unfortunately, the Met constabulary could not do anything as they were allowed to do what they like as British laws (apparently) do not apply to them.

Perhaps that is a brilliant illustration of varying people's viewpoints throughout this thread?

:) Whoever it was who said 'The law is an ass' is absolutely right!

Originally posted by kathythebean
British laws apply to everyone in britain. Except diplomats.

Interestingly, the largest number of immigrants in london is australians. Also, many australians are pretty angry about the amount of brits 'taking their jobs' - as are the spanish.

Thats when anti-immigration becomes racist - when you're not bothered about white illegal immigrants, like poles and aussies, but you are about asian and africans. Have you noticed though, a lot of the people who complain about foreigners taking 'their' jobs don't actually want a job? These jobs people are 'stealing' from nationals, why are there job vacancies if the nationals want the jobs?:)

It is very difficult to immigrate to Austalia. They are very strict about who they let in and you have to become an Australian citizen if you want to be a permanent resident.:)

Originally posted by amhudson119
Many of our "top people" are whizzing off to Aus/NZ and earning very well over there.

:)

If they prefer Australia over Britain, I suggest they aren't top people at all (in terms of brains).

The idea that illegals (and even asylum seekers in many cases) can sponge off 'good law-abiding Brits' is an over simplification of the situation. (Needless to say one would expect such ideas by anyone quoting the fascist Enoch Powell).

Unless somebody has residential status in this country they cannot:

- work
- train to become something
- go to university
- claim benefits of any sort
- buy a house
- open a bank acccount (which also means no cash card or cheque book)
- register their children at a school
- buy anything on credit
- vote

In many cases, they also cannot leave the country, even to visit family who they may not have seen for several years.

Furthermore, the decision to leave one's home, friends and family and come to a country where you have virtually no 'rights', where the system + culture may be very different and where you maybe don't even speak the language is NOT an easy decision to make by any means! Most people do so because they see no other solution and many are even frightened for their own lives.

On top of this, many asylum speakers are intelligent well-educated professionals who WANT to work but who are not even allowed to for at least 6 months. If their case drags on for several years (as is sometimes the case), they end up having to clean people's houses and do odd jobs in order to make ends meet. In view of the fact that we actually have a shortage in some sectors (e.g. doctors, nurses, dentists to name but a few) this is a real problem that definitely needs to be addressed for the sake of both our society and our economy!

It may also be interesting to have the statistics for our 'own' tax evaders and 'benefit spongers' and to ask what is being done to address that problem...

So let's stop this ignorant, scare-mongering propoganda for all of our sakes and start to look a little more closely at some of the real issues!

Originally posted by Greenback
If they prefer Australia over Britain, I suggest they aren't top people at all (in terms of brains).
An amazing quote!
And tell me......What is your position in life for you to assertain that people that leave this country due to the taxation, second class citizenship etc' have no brains?

I have my degree in Engineering and am well sought after in my field overseas.
I have been offered a job in Brisbane to which I have declined...Not due to having Brains as you well put it but due to my Grandchildren.

I am however....going to sell up an move to Europe, Holland Exactly as I don't see why I should go on useing my brain to benefit the people that sit on their rear ends and collect from my contributions to this sad country.

Originally posted by tulip
Whoever it was who said 'The law is an ass' is absolutely right!


I agree

Someones just asserted that the met police said immigrants aren't subject to the laws of britain so there was nothing they can do about their criminality and you just believe him straight off?

Originally posted by petunia100
Unless somebody has residential status in this country they cannot:

- work
- train to become something
- go to university
- claim benefits of any sort
- buy a house
- open a bank acccount (which also means no cash card or cheque book)
- register their children at a school
- buy anything on credit
- vote


But they can (and do):

- work for cash in hand
- deal drugs
- prostitute themselves
- pimp women
- help in human trafficking
- pass on disease

Yes...there are lots of problems with illegal immigrants. But isn't it an issue that should be approached with sensitivity? After all, these are people!

I'm not pro-immigration... i'm just anti-hysterical stereotyping of all foreigners. There are lots of unfounded lies spread about immigration in this country.

Originally posted by kathythebean
Someones just asserted that the met police said immigrants aren't subject to the laws of britain so there was nothing they can do about their criminality and you just believe him straight off? Sorry Kathy, I didn't mean to take the word of a complete stranger. I shouldn't have just took their word for it but I do think in a lot of cases there are some stupid laws so I think I let my bias rule my judgement:blush:

Yes, TO20, there is scum like that around, (although we also have our fair share of pimps, paedophiles, thiefs, and murderers) and I am not suggesting for a minute that these people should be allowed to stay!!! However, to put all illegals into this category is a gross oversimplification of the issue for reasons that I previously stated. We must examine all the causes of the current situation, rather than adopting this abhorrent 'send them all back' philosophy (if it is worthy of being termed a philosophy).

Originally posted by t020
But they can (and do):

- work for cash in hand
- deal drugs
- prostitute themselves
- pimp women
- help in human trafficking
- pass on disease
So, nice and easy life then, Craig? You try it! It's always the wimps that have the strongest stance.

And I'm pro-immigration. Make them legal and you stop all those problems over night.

and anyway we've all done one or two of those - if we are honest.

Originally posted by evildrneil
I was listening to that bastion of the establishment radio 4 a couple of days ago who were saying that we actually need more immigration to fill the skills/personel shortage which is becoming worse with our steadily aging population - perhaps they should provide an amnesty to illigal immigrants and assylum seekers so long as they register as being here and do a job of work? Voila two hefty political albatrosses killed at one go!

There is a fundamental weakness in this analysis, in that it ignores the addional demand created by the migrants supposedly needed to fill job vacancies. The analysis would have some cogency if migrants were merely workers, with no need for food, housing, transport or welfare. However, this is obviously not the case. In fact, the more we import labour to fill current job shortages, the more we are creating additional demands for labour. The shortages therefore are not temporary gaps to be filled, but self-perpetuating, resembling an inexhaustible stream or even a bottomless well.

The size of this new demand of course is crucially influenced by the nature of the supply of new labour. If for example, it consists mainly of young, healthy, educated personnel from developed countries here for a shortish period but with no intention of settling permanently, then the effect on the demand side may be relatively limited (although of course they will still add to the demand for food, housing and transport for example). If it is of skilled people from either developed or
developing countries who intend to settle here (and bring their families with them) then the demands for education, health and welfare - in addition to their transport and housing needs - is likely to contribute to new labour 'shortages' and to underpin the argument for importing more migrants to fill these shortages. If if consists largely of unskilled, poorly educated people from developing countries, then the lacuna between the supposed benefits of filling gaps in the labour market and the added costs in terms of creating additional strains on our housing, transport and welfare systems beomes even more marked. The employers of labour benefit from this self-perpetuating cycle, but in my view society as a whole probably does not (particularly a relatively small, densely populated and increasingly congested country like the UK).

Another aspect to this of course is the brain drain from developing countries to the developed world - an impediment to the progress of, and the quality of life in, developing countries which is probably just as significant (probably more so) as debt relief.

Originally posted by LordChaverly
There is a fundamental weakness in this analysis, in that it ignores the addional demand created by the migrants supposedly needed to fill job vacancies. The analysis would have some cogency if migrants were merely workers, with no need for food, housing, transport or welfare. However, this is obviously not the case. In fact, the more we import labour to fill current job shortages, the more we are creating additional demands for labour. The shortages therefore are not temporary gaps to be filled, but self-perpetuating, resembling an inexhaustible stream or even a bottomless well.


Surely for this to be the case then each person working would actually need more than one other person working to support him/her and then they would need more etc. etc. etc. Which would of course mean thet we would always have a huge number of jobs waiting to be filled and as these are filled even more would be created which is patently not the case!

Superpbly answered Evil! :-)

Originally posted by kathythebean
Someones just asserted that the met police said immigrants aren't subject to the laws of britain so there was nothing they can do about their criminality and you just believe him straight off?
actually...one observation I made in Hull about 8 months ago.

A car entered into a petrol station and accidentally hit a car that was being filled up.
The occupants were asylum seekers..with no insurance and the driver did not posess a valid driving licence.
The police were called in......
Quote: We are sorry that we are unable to prosecute as these people were given the money to buy the vehilcle by the DHSS and the insurance was paid for by them.
The driver although unlicensed cannot be prosecuted as they need the vehicle to look for work.

Need I say more??? The law is different for those that the government deems it should be so.
Just as long as you are not British......you are ok!

Originally posted by Delboy3
actually...one observation I made in Hull about 8 months ago.

A car entered into a petrol station and accidentally hit a car that was being filled up.
The occupants were asylum seekers..with no insurance and the driver did not posess a valid driving licence.
The police were called in......
Quote: We are sorry that we are unable to prosecute as these people were given the money to buy the vehilcle by the DHSS and the insurance was paid for by them.
The driver although unlicensed cannot be prosecuted as they need the vehicle to look for work.

Need I say more??? The law is different for those that the government deems it should be so.
Just as long as you are not British......you are ok!

However asylum seekers are not allowed to work unless given special permission and no allowances are given to asylum seekers for vehicles or transport - this anecdote seems more than a little bit spurious to me...

Originally posted by evildrneil
Surely for this to be the case then each person working would actually need more than one other person working to support him/her and then they would need more etc. etc. etc. Which would of course mean thet we would always have a huge number of jobs waiting to be filled and as these are filled even more would be created which is patently not the case!

As well as making little if any sense, what you have written above has no bearing at all upon what I wrote above about the demand creating effects (including negative externalities and socio-economic costs) of migration as a means of filling gaps in the labour market.

Originally posted by LordChaverly
negative externalities

'Little if any sense' - you're the Daddy, Chav.

Originally posted by petunia100
Yes, TO20, there is scum like that around, (although we also have our fair share of pimps, paedophiles, thiefs, and murderers) and I am not suggesting for a minute that these people should be allowed to stay!!! However, to put all illegals into this category is a gross oversimplification of the issue for reasons that I previously stated. We must examine all the causes of the current situation, rather than adopting this abhorrent 'send them all back' philosophy (if it is worthy of being termed a philosophy).

But they do all fall into that category. At best, they're only guilty of the "working for cash in hand", but it still puts them into one of the categories. Also, in gaining access illegally or staying beyond their permitted time, they're undertaking a criminal activity - hardly the best way to start life in a new country is it?

Originally posted by LordSnooty
'Little if any sense' - you're the Daddy, Chav.

Your economic illiteracy is showing. If you had done even 'O' level Economics you would have been familiar with the concept of negative externalities.

The only occasion on which any sense at all has emerged from the puerile drivel you write on this forum was on the recent qualifications thread, when you admitted that you were completely stupid.

Originally posted by LordChaverly
Youe

I rest my case! What was your PhD in? Being An Illiterate Tosser?

Originally posted by rtapper
FYI - the Home Office estimate of 430,000 persons equates to approx 0.7% of the population. In the US there are believed to be 7 million illegals, which is 2.5% of their population...

http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/ind/en/home/news/press_releases/Sizing_the_Unathorised_Migrant_Population.html

Full report on the unauthorised migrant population in UK can be viewed here :

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs05/rdsolr2905.pdf

the US has a natural border with Mexico which any man and his dog can cross quite easily (if they can swim)

Originally posted by Delboy3
An amazing quote!
And tell me......What is your position in life for you to assertain that people that leave this country due to the taxation, second class citizenship etc' have no brains?

That wasn't the point being made. Read. It said people were deserting these shores for Aussieland because of the asylum situation. This is, obviously, complete nonsense - and anyone who would wish to do so is perfectly welcome to as far as I'm concerned. "Second class citizenship"? That's puerile drivel.

Originally posted by Delboy3
I have my degree in Engineering and am well sought after in my field overseas.
I have been offered a job in Brisbane to which I have declined...Not due to having Brains as you well put it but due to my Grandchildren.

I am however....going to sell up an move to Europe, Holland Exactly as I don't see why I should go on useing my brain to benefit the people that sit on their rear ends and collect from my contributions to this sad country.

Good for you. Forgive me if

a) I don't really care

and

b) I say that if you do so your priorities are sadly skewed.

Originally posted by t020
But they can (and do):

- work for cash in hand
- deal drugs
- prostitute themselves
- pimp women
- help in human trafficking
- pass on disease

Is that whites or non-whites?

generally Eastern European whites. (although Jamacans take up a fair wack(as do Nigerians)

still a stupid argument.

the VAST VAST VAST majority of illegal immigrants come to this country, work in poorly paid and exploitataive jobs, live peacefully and don't bother anyone.

Originally posted by robbie
generally Eastern European whites. (although Jamacans take up a fair wack(as do Nigerians)

still a stupid argument.

the VAST VAST VAST majority of illegal immigrants come to this country, work in poorly paid and exploitataive jobs, live peacefully and don't bother anyone.

Too right!

I love that we are still a haven for people, legal or not.

How has cultural diversity not been a wonderful thing for our nation?
(Can anyone actually answer this????)

The old arguments that would see immigrant activity as a threat is beaten away by our near full employment

*feels need to touch wood*

Originally posted by robbie
...the VAST VAST VAST majority of illegal immigrants come to this country, work in poorly paid and exploitataive jobs, live peacefully and don't bother anyone.

Oh and by the way... I hope that anyone who comes to our shores is treated well. If we saw any influx as 'cheap labour', that would be bad.
(Shame on you New Labour).

Originally posted by robbie
generally Eastern European whites. (although Jamacans take up a fair wack(as do Nigerians)

still a stupid argument.

the VAST VAST VAST majority of illegal immigrants come to this country, work in poorly paid and exploitataive jobs, live peacefully and don't bother anyone.

By coming here illegally they're bothering everyone - they're breaking the laws of our nation.

Greenback - it's not a racial issue so put back your favourite card and try another hand.

Having read some of the posts on this thread it never fails to amaze me how naive and stupid some people are.
Look they come here to scrounge and to take the tax payer for a ride,oops sorry thats not PC but hey lets tell it like it is?
The goverment have made a complete mess of all the asylum situation and most people know it and when the economy goes into down turn we will see if the country are so accomodating to these people.?
We need to get rid of EVERY SINGLE ONE of them ASAP.

Originally posted by Deavon
Too right!

I love that we are still a haven for people, legal or not.

How has cultural diversity not been a wonderful thing for our nation?
(Can anyone actually answer this????)

The old arguments that would see immigrant activity as a threat is beaten away by our near full employment

*feels need to touch wood* I can't reply to Roy, who thinks we are all stupid but in this country (US) a lot of the time illegals have a blind eye turned to them because they are willing to do low paid work and it keeps the country going. I don't believe in slave labour in any way, shape or form but a lot of businesses would go under if they had to pay minimum wage, that would mean less jobs for less people.

A lot of people coming to Britain, take jobs that no-one else wants and are actually highly trained professionals doing jobs that are below their abilities. Not everyone can be classed as a scrounger because they want a better life. I'm a foreigner in this country and I don't think everyone automatically thinks I'm bad news because I'm not a U.S citizen. Tabloid papers in England are responsible for a lot of the unrest about illegal AND legal immigrants.

England was actually portrayed as the 'land of milk and honey' to persaude foreigners to take jobs - can anyone blame them for wanting a job in such a 'wonderful' country? The truth soon became obvious to these people who were classified as scroungers and job stealers (can't be both, come to think of it!)



I'd rather be thought of as stupid than heartless. :)

Regarding illegal and legal immigrants and wages :----it's a bit of a "chicken and egg" situation , this , and I would guess a very difficult one even for professional economists to answer , to wit -----------did large scale immigration force wages down [ or at least not to increase so much ] so that locals were better off on the , "dole " , rather than do a menial job ? Or were the locals so idle that they wouldn't do menial jobs for low wages and so this encouraged immigration of all kinds and from all places ?
Whatever , I can imagine greedy employers rubbing their hands with glee as they saw large -scale immigration start in the '50's and continue.It's quite possible that if there'd been no immigration ----or very low immigration , since the '50's ------then , either employers would have had to pay higher wages to attract people to boring or unpleasant jobs----------either that or the jobs would simply not get done or there would be a sort of skeleton service.
What makes a lot of people angry , those who want to work at least , is that a lot of them are working for a very low wage and they see or hear about illegal immigrants , who , their common sense tells them are encouraging a low minimum wage. These are the sort of decent law-abiding people who have paid taxes and obeyed the law since they left education. They're not concerned with the exact numbers [who can calculate that , anyway ?] but with the whole idea of it happening.
It's o.k. , saying we have our own , home-grown scum and scroungers ; it doesn't follow that we need any more !

A lot of problems in this country comes directly from the benefit system where single parents and work shy are encouraged not to work as they are better off on the benefits.

This way of life seems to be passed down from one generation to another with these people.
The lack of education is also linked to the benefit cycle as ..."Why learn to get a job if you will be better off claiming"

The immigration problem is not of the immigrants making and the fault lies soley with the government of the day.

If people were made to go and work for a living and given no incentive to stay at home by removing the benefits system, then the jobs would not need to be filled by outsiders.

Make the work shy do the available jobs for their money and you will find that there are'nt enough vacancies to go around!
There would be no need for immigration and the taxpayer wouldn't have to foot the 42 billion a year required to fund benefits.

Mod. Note

OK folks, calm down and miss out on the name calling, please.

Keep it to the discussion of the matter in hand - I know that it is an emotive subject but such things can be discussed without personal abuse.

Consider this as a general warning - if there is more name calling I'll pull that post and ban the user concernmed for a few days to cool them down.

Thanks in advance,

Joe

Originally posted by rtapper
FYI - the Home Office estimate of 430,000 persons equates to approx 0.7% of the population. In the US there are believed to be 7 million illegals, which is 2.5% of their population...[/url] I heard 35 million in the USA. Interesting how stat's vary isn't it?

Originally posted by Deavon
Too right!

How has cultural diversity not been a wonderful thing for our nation?
(Can anyone actually answer this????)

Honor Killings
Tribal Witchcraft
Trade in Body Parts (Suspected)
Bush meat imports
Forced marriages.
Are just a few things we could do without.

Yep, that's right, honour killings... buy one get one free.

And as for tribal witchcraft... it's rife 'round our end. :roll:

Originally posted by robbie
generally Eastern European whites. (although Jamacans take up a fair wack(as do Nigerians)

eastern europeans are allowed here legally, they can just fly on over and get jobs at minimum wage... even the ones that were here illegally are now legally in the country...

you work for the Home Office, hell you work on part of the team I did :P you know that all these thousands of eastern europeans coming in every day are legally allowed here, they're just asked to tell us that they're working so we can keep track of all of them :)

as for Jamaicans, dont half of them work as cabbies in London? not quite sure how they manage to get cab licenses though :? obviously some dodgyness going off there!

Originally posted by t020
By coming here illegally they're bothering everyone - they're breaking the laws of our nation.

Greenback - it's not a racial issue so put back your favourite card and try another hand.

Sorry, I'm not using a "card", I'm just trying to pinpoint exactly who you are referring to with your sweeping accusations. So?

Derek, I'm more than a little suspicious of your 42 Billion figure! If you remove the benefit system then entire sections of society are left destitute. I'd like to think as a nation we're more advanced than that.

Immigration is vital for the economy, and to balance out the people who leave Britain every year.

Originally posted by Greenback
Sorry, I'm not using a "card", I'm just trying to pinpoint exactly who you are referring to with your sweeping accusations. So?

Derek, I'm more than a little suspicious of your 42 Billion figure! If you remove the benefit system then entire sections of society are left destitute. I'd like to think as a nation we're more advanced than that.

Immigration is vital for the economy, and to balance out the people who leave Britain every year.

Advanced or just Stupid?

We are not advancing anywhere by allowing people to fail at school so that they can live off the system.
My figure of 42 billion was stats from 2004.....the actual figure is higher than I stated.
THe NHS has cost the taxpayer around 56 billion a year +, and that is increasing due to the population that is coming here for treatment for aids etc'.

Why? if you remove the benefit system should anyone go destitute?
Is this because we have too many thick people in the UK that are unable to get a job or lack the initiative to do so?

The whole reason that we are importing labour is, as a lot of people have stated!.....that many of our spongers are too lazy or not prepared to do the jobs that these immigrants are doing.

There would be no need for immigration to balance out anything if people were prepared to get off their rear ends and do something with their lives.

Another point: why is it that the workers of this country have to subsidise the none working shirkers?
I would rather my taxes go towards my old age etc....not to give someone else a pension and a living that they have not worked for.

Originally posted by royjames
Look they come here to scrounge and to take the tax payer for a ride,oops sorry thats not PC but hey lets tell it like it is?

So Roy, how pray tell do illegal imigrants take the tax payer for a ride when they get no income support (or any other payouts from the government), have no medical records so won't be able to use the NHS. I'm having a bit of trouble seeing how they are taking the taxpayer for a ride...

Originally posted by evildrneil
So Roy, how pray tell do illegal imigrants take the tax payer for a ride when they get no income support (or any other payouts from the government), have no medical records so won't be able to use the NHS. I'm having a bit of trouble seeing how they are taking the taxpayer for a ride...
Hi Evildrniel, I have heard that in a lot of cases that documents are forged or stolen......I have at this moment in time been involved with a case where a person that moved out of the country had their NI number used for claiming benefits even though they were not here.

Just look at the scams that are going on day by day, people claiming benefits from different areas with forged documents...It is not that hard for anyone to do and if they get caught!...there is no custodial sentence and in a lot of cases.....they don't have to repay what they have in effect stolen.

Originally posted by Greenback
Sorry, I'm not using a "card", I'm just trying to pinpoint exactly who you are referring to with your sweeping accusations. So?


Illegal immigrants, regardless of race.

Originally posted by xafier
eastern europeans are allowed here legally, they can just fly on over and get jobs at minimum wage... even the ones that were here illegally are now legally in the country...

you work for the Home Office, hell you work on part of the team I did :P you know that all these thousands of eastern europeans coming in every day are legally allowed here, they're just asked to tell us that they're working so we can keep track of all of them :)

as for Jamaicans, dont half of them work as cabbies in London? not quite sure how they manage to get cab licenses though :? obviously some dodgyness going off there!

I meant Bulgarians, Russian, Ukranians, Belarussians, Armenians, Moldovans, Romanians etc etc.

Originally posted by t020
By coming here illegally they're bothering everyone - they're breaking the laws of our nation.

Greenback - it's not a racial issue so put back your favourite card and try another hand.

and why are they bothering you in the sunny suburbs? How does them being here effect you? Apart from having people doing jobs that otherwise would be empty whilst chav and chavette have little chavena number 4 and sit on their bums watching Trisha.

breaking the laws o our nation? No more than most people speed at some point.

As far as I;m concerned as long as the numbers of illegals are kept in check then there isn't a big issue

Illegal migration to this country is impossible to stop.

Good old britain, still the biggest joke in europe and the biggest toilet for illegal immigrants.:loopy: :loopy: :loopy:

Originally posted by royjames
Having read some of the posts on this thread it never fails to amaze me how naive and stupid some people are.
Look they come here to scrounge and to take the tax payer for a ride,oops sorry thats not PC but hey lets tell it like it is?
The goverment have made a complete mess of all the asylum situation and most people know it and when the economy goes into down turn we will see if the country are so accomodating to these people.?
We need to get rid of EVERY SINGLE ONE of them ASAP.

with gas chambers Roy? ( the tone of your post is very very right wing)

It never seems to amaze me how someone who speaks a fair bit of sense on a lot of topics comes up with so much tripe on race related ones.

How are illegals scrounging off of the state? They cannot get benefits. They will use the NHS fair enough in extreme cases but they will also use public transport. They do the jobs that give a company money who pay taxes to the state.

The asylum system is a mess (but then it has always been one big mess

Originally posted by sheffco
Honor Killings
Tribal Witchcraft
Trade in Body Parts (Suspected)
Bush meat imports
Forced marriages.
Are just a few things we could do without.

someone reads the Daily Mail a bit too much.

These all happen but they are very isolated incidents which only effect those in that culture.:D

Originally posted by brooksy
Good old britain, still the biggest joke in europe and the biggest toilet for illegal immigrants.:loopy: :loopy: :loopy:

you'll find that Germany and France have a lot more illegal immigrants than Britain

Well thats ok then pal, cheered me up no end.:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Originally posted by robbie
someone reads the Daily Mail a bit too much.

These all happen but they are very isolated incidents which only effect those in that culture.:D

I don't read any newspaper, I do watch BBC news and the others. Serious programs like Panorama, and Cutting Edge.
Be sure that when the above mentioned problems are the subject of serious documentaries, it is just the tip of the iceberg.
Have you ever sat on PIA flight to Islamabad, and seen a couple of 14 year old girls decked out in "Their" national dress, heading for a wedding with some horrible old man? Who will then have reason to bring all his extended to Britain.

Originally posted by brooksy
Well thats ok then pal, cheered me up no end.:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

well you did call Britan the biggest toilet for illegal immigrants :loopy: :loopy:

Straw clutching and missing the point spring to mind:thumbsup:

Originally posted by brooksy
Straw clutching and missing the point spring to mind:thumbsup:

makeing false right wing propaganda twaddle statements springs to mind:thumbsup:

I was just correcting you I didn't say the fact that France and Germany have more illegal immigrants than us make it alright.

Right wing, i thought it was freedom of speech .Silly me:thumbsup:

Most of em seem to arrive here via france, it was quite intentional on Frances part to site the camps by the chunnel entrance, and on the north coast.
Give em a cheap ticket back, after all, france wants us to be part of europe.

Originally posted by brooksy
Right wing, i thought it was freedom of speech .Silly me:thumbsup:

I don't understand what you are getting at. You made a statement that isn't true so that is free speach.

ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS ATE SHERGAR.AND LORD LUCAN:thumbsup:

Originally posted by robbie

ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS ATE SHERGAR.AND LORD LUCAN:thumbsup: [/B]

Could be worse, you could end up married to one:clap:
I used to have a picture of my daughter at her first communion on my desk. Full length white gown, with veil etc.
The office cleaner asked me what the bride price was?
She was nine years old at the time, and he had to be escorted out of the building. Benefits of Multi-culture? Stick em.

Originally posted by sheffco
Have you ever sat on PIA flight to Islamabad, and seen a couple of 14 year old girls decked out in "Their" national dress, heading for a wedding with some horrible old man? Who will then have reason to bring all his extended to Britain.
Isn't it amazing these days that you can tell so much about a persons journey simply by their mode of dress. :thumbsup:

So exited at the prospect of the future, the whole plane knew the purpose of the visit. So sad, broad cockney accent too.
As I said, you have to be there, to realise what is happening.

I'm sorry but 1 in 100 is HUGE ! That's like take 2 buses at peak hour, and you have someone that shouldn't be there.

I'd expect 1 in 10 000 would be an ACCEPTABLE figure, but 1/100 is just taking the Mickael ! Like there aren't supposed to be any !

Originally posted by Tony
I heard 35 million in the USA. Interesting how stat's vary isn't it? Statistics mean very little do they? The governments juggle figures to suit themselves. When things go wrong they have a scape goat to blame:| You wouldn't believe how different the news is over here to the news in Britain. It makes me very cynical, I don't believe either side of the Atlantics news broadcasts now. I'd rather rely on SF for more accurate reporting!

Whatever the government publish here, you could probably double it.
Is it true, that when they report the figure for immigration, they only count the Heads of family?? Not the possible three wives and numerous children?
One fake marriage could also produce a multitude of extended relations (Dependents).
As a free and far ranging doodlebugger, I once met two very much African sisters at Heathrow, who were offering £2000 for a quick trip to a registry office. All expenses paid, plus the weekend honeymoon in a hotel of my choice???

Originally posted by robbie
someone reads the Daily Mail a bit too much.

These all happen but they are very isolated incidents which only effect those in that culture.:D

Hang on....aren't we supposed to be multi-cultural and integrated?

If it DOES only affect those in those cultures then we've generated a ghetto mentality amongst incomers. Also, as these sub-cultures don't fund their own police, health and social services it does affect us all just like any crime affects us all.

And if we are supposed to be integrated, then we need to ensure that people who come here start taking on board a few basic tenets of living in this country.

Joe

Originally posted by sheffco
Whatever the government publish here, you could probably double it.
Is it true, that when they report the figure for immigration, they only count the Heads of family?? Not the possible three wives and numerous children?
One fake marriage could also produce a multitude of extended relations (Dependents).
As a free and far ranging doodlebugger, I once met two very much African sisters at Heathrow, who were offering £2000 for a quick trip to a registry office. All expenses paid, plus the weekend honeymoon in a hotel of my choice??? But doesn't that show how desperate people are? I don't mean that in an insulting way to you, I mean they would offer money to a complete stranger like that. Aside from that, it is NOT that easy to just get married like that! Stop being a 'doodlebugger'!

Nice to see that...The scroungers seem to be mostly here in the forum..

I'm not one but hey!........tell me....all those that have a lot to say in this thread........are you working? are you screwing the system or are you getting what you think is entitled to you? even though you hav'nt worked a day in your dreary lives?

Originally posted by Delboy3
Nice to see that...The scroungers seem to be mostly here in the forum..

I'm not one but hey!........tell me....all those that have a lot to say in this thread........are you working? are you screwing the system or are you getting what you think is entitled to you? even though you hav'nt worked a day in your dreary lives? I tried to say that earlier but sadly it falls on deaf ears:(

Originally posted by tulip
I tried to say that earlier but sadly it falls on deaf ears:(
Nice to see that someone in this forum has a brain.....Tulip<<<I take my hat off to you as you seem to be of moral standing and have some insight as to what is happening around you as opposed to the deaf, blind, dumb people that frequent the forum......

Originally posted by Delboy3
Nice to see that...The scroungers seem to be mostly here in the forum..

I'm not one but hey!........tell me....all those that have a lot to say in this thread........are you working? are you screwing the system or are you getting what you think is entitled to you? even though you hav'nt worked a day in your dreary lives?

a reply to another comedy racist.

I have worked whilst at uni (and school) and have been working (with a gap since redundancy) since I left uni.

Nice to see that the racists are now fully back in force on the forum :loopy:

Originally posted by robbie
a reply to another comedy racist.

I have worked whilst at uni (and school) and have been working (with a gap since redundancy) since I left uni.

Nice to see that the racists are now fully back in force on the forum :loopy:
Racist????? Geeesh!.....And to what do you base this on??
Realist maybe? not racist Realist maybe......Racist ! no!

Joe had a point there, but as I think he said, some people bring their ghetto type cultures with them.
The Girls in Heathrow? very genuine offer, bit of a laugh at the coffee bar, but I had no doubt that there intentions were honourable. I couldn't spare the time though.
Del boy? where's your head at? benefits for Brits is a far different prospect as benefits for immigrants.
The great social state was created to provide security from the cradle to the grave. Grandfathers, Fathers,and Individuals have paid into it via their contributions. Don't knock it for the genuine claimants.

Originally posted by Delboy3
Racist????? Geeesh!.....And to what do you base this on??
Realist maybe? not racist Realist maybe......Racist ! no! Racism is hatred of people from different countries being hated solely because they are not white Anglo Saxon. Not wanting people to be a drain on the system because they don't contribute to society is a whole different matter. Would it make any differences weather the scroungers were British citizen that hadn't contributed a penny or an Eastern European, an African etc, etc. NO is the simple answer!

Originally posted by sheffco
Joe had a point there, but as I think he said, some people bring their ghetto type cultures with them.
The Girls in Heathrow? very genuine offer, bit of a laugh at the coffee bar, but I had no doubt that there intentions were honourable. I couldn't spare the time though.
Del boy? where's your head at? benefits for Brits is a far different prospect as benefits for immigrants.
The great social state was created to provide security from the cradle to the grave. Grandfathers, Fathers,and Individuals have paid into it via their contributions. Don't knock it for the genuine claimants. But it was meant for people who CONTRIBUTED to the system. If people don't contribute, it doesn't matter whether they are British citizens or not. The system is drained and falls apart - can't you see that? The population of Britain isn't growing because of immigrants being brought there to work and pay taxes is it!

Originally posted by JoePritchard


And if we are supposed to be integrated, then we need to ensure that people who come here start taking on board a few basic tenets of living in this country.

Joe

Thing is, you'd expect the people who already live here to do that. Ignorance of the 'basic tenets' of living in this country (whatever they may be) is not the preserve of immigrants illegal or otherwise.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Thing is, you'd expect the people who already live here to do that. Ignorance of the 'basic tenets' of living in this country (whatever they may be) is not the preserve of immigrants illegal or otherwise. Would you want to integrate with people who looked down their noses at you and called you a scrounger or a job stealer?

On the day that millions of people all over the world are joining together to try and end the poverty in our world... Our resident Nazi starts a thread to undermine all the good spirit and passion from good people everywhere to try and make a positive difference to our global community....I am sick of the rantings of him and his sad followers..Rascist, bigots and rotten to the ****ing core with absolutely no sensitivity to the needs of anyone other than themselves...They complain...they use hatred to get their way and stir up the hatred when it suits their needs...Roy you are a pathetic ,sad ****er...
Respect to Bob Geldof and the organisers of Live 8, all the artists, musicians and everyday people from around the world that are trying to change the world today with something Roy and his cronies have never tried..... kindness...

Originally posted by sheffco
Joe had a point there, but as I think he said, some people bring their ghetto type cultures with them.
The Girls in Heathrow? very genuine offer, bit of a laugh at the coffee bar, but I had no doubt that there intentions were honourable. I couldn't spare the time though.
Del boy? where's your head at? benefits for Brits is a far different prospect as benefits for immigrants.
The great social state was created to provide security from the cradle to the grave. Grandfathers, Fathers,and Individuals have paid into it via their contributions. Don't knock it for the genuine claimants.
Sorry to burst you bubble but the Conservatives brought in the Benefits system just after the war.....
The aim was not to look after assholes from birth to pension as you so put it!

It was originally put there to protect the working man so that if he hit hard times.....It was an insurance!

Your statements just show the contempt that youngsters have today.......YOu claim ...Where does the money come from??
The government??

NO!...from the working people of this country!!!

I take it that you think that you are owed a living by this country! think again........you are NOT........And I for one...will not be paying into the upkeep of the scum in this country!

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Thing is, you'd expect the people who already live here to do that. Ignorance of the 'basic tenets' of living in this country (whatever they may be) is not the preserve of immigrants illegal or otherwise.

You'd also expect us to take more care to respect the basic tenets of other cultures when we go a-wandering the globe - Ibiza, anyone?

Originally posted by brainchild
On the day that millions of people all over the world are joining together to try and end the poverty in our world... Our resident Nazi starts a thread to undermine all the good spirit and passion from good people everywhere to try and make a positive difference to our global community....I am sick of the rantings of him and his sad followers..Rascist, bigots and rotten to the ****ing core with absolutely no sensitivity to the needs of anyone other than themselves...They complain...they use hatred to get their way and stir up the hatred when it suits their needs...Roy you are a pathetic ,sad ****er...
Respect to Bob Geldof and the organisers of Live 8, all the artists, musicians and everyday people from around the world that are trying to change the world today with something Roy and his cronies have never tried..... kindness...
My! I am proud that you call me the resident nazi......Hope you have good legal aid.......Defamation of character, Slander....See you in court

Delboy I think brainchild was talking about royjames?

I don't agree with you on most things but I think you're sound :) Not at all fuhrerlike!

Originally posted by Delboy3
My! I am proud that you call me the resident nazi......Hope you have good legal aid.......Defamation of character, Slander....See you in court

I suspect he meant Roy (as he mentions him)

Bit rough that Del Boy!
I'm not a young scrounger, and have probably paid more in National insurance and Taxes than you will earn in your sorry life.
Amazing you feel so bitter
Woz it sum Fink I detected?

MY appologies if I took the wrong side of the conversation..My thanks to you all...but Hey......I also get fed up now and then being called a racist or a nazi......

Originally posted by sheffco
Bit rough that Del Boy!
I'm not a young scrounger, and have probably paid more in National insurance and Taxes than you will earn in your sorry life.
Amazing you feel so bitter
Woz it sum Fink I detected? Oh, my dads bigger than your dad:thumbsup: I don't think he was refering to every single person on the forum:clap:

Originally posted by Delboy3
MY appologies if I took the wrong side of the conversation..My thanks to you all...but Hey......I also get fed up now and then being called a racist or a nazi......

and I'd like to say that when I said the racists are back I wasn't referring to you (I know it wasn't very apparent)

Originally posted by sheffco
Bit rough that Del Boy!
I'm not a young scrounger, and have probably paid more in National insurance and Taxes than you will earn in your sorry life.
Amazing you feel so bitter
Woz it sum Fink I detected?
Would be nice to see actually what you have paid in your life .....lol

If you think that money is a great thing.....then sorry..I gave up a long time on it due to implications....However....if you can give 100 000 today to charity I am sure that the people on the forum would love you!
by the way! for every pound yu give..i will double it!

Back to the thread - - never mind who has paid or not paid, who is legal here? And who is supporting the illegals?

OK...multiple response time....:)

Phan - quite right. The same rules SHOULD apply to everyone, irrespective of place of birth and status of residence in the UK. However, if you have a crime committed by an illegal immigrant who's not actually showing on the 'radar' of State, then it's hard to catch them unless you get them red-handed.

Delboy - the first stages of the benefits system was first introduced around the time of WW1 by the then Liberal Winston Churchill. The Welfare State as it is understood today came in to being as part of the reforms carried out at the end of the War, so most of it would have been introduced by the Government of National Unity during the war and then the Atlee government.

And in terms of contributing - I currently pay taxes that contribute to the welfare benefits being received by people today. I'm not contributing to my future, so to say, unless I have a private pension. I get taxed on average 40% of my earnings each week.

And finally - yup, back to the subject in hand!

Joe

Originally posted by sheffco
Back to the thread - - never mind who has paid or not paid, who is legal here? And who is supporting the illegals?

In terms of who is supporting them.....

Anyone who employs an illegal immigrant - someone without a work permit and other 'trackable' documents - , anyone who knows of such people employing them, anyone who gives them accomodation - it sounds incredibly Draconian but if you want to get on top of illegal immigration then we need two things; an immigration system that is capable of handling applications and deportations (where appropriate) quickly and effectively and a populous who are willing to blow the whistle.

Joe

Must be a lot of semi-guilty people on this thread then.
Does "Moral Support" count?

There must be an awful lot of people profiting from the trade in people :( How do these people sleep at night? From reading personalised accounts of refugees you can tell that people get promised the earth before they come here.

Sheffco - if Government and individuals make the country 'comfortable' for illegal immigrants and people traffickers then yes, I'd say that that is a form of support.

kathythebean - I'd argue we should be coming down harder on these people than we do. Various governments are known to turn a blind eye to people who are offering passage to the UK. Perhaps threatening them with sanctions might stem the tide?

Joe

Yes, they are the real criminals aren't they! Do you think it's a case of things changing too quickly for the law to keep up? Are there adequate laws to challenge people traffickers? Or is it that we are not yet good enough at international co-operation of governments and police forces?

Originally posted by kathythebean
There must be an awful lot of people profiting from the trade in people :( How do these people sleep at night? From reading personalised accounts of refugees you can tell that people get promised the earth before they come here.

Thats the joy of the capitalist society - get em cheap (in this case workers) and sell em expensive (in this case whatever they produce) and pay them as little as you can get away with!

Blame the lily-pad hoppers I say. They have turned a nelsonial eye to the train and lorry jumpers. Time to return the Algerian, Tunisian, Tchadian, Camaroonian to name a few. I'd sanction that.

Originally posted by JoePritchard
And if we are supposed to be integrated, then we need to ensure that people who come here start taking on board a few basic tenets of living in this country.

Integration is an organic process that happens given time - look at the ultimate cultural melting pot, the US, for evidence of that. To get on in life, some form of adherence to a host country's norms is not only desirable but absolutely necessary.

This isn't the sort of thing that those who advocate Blunkett's Pub Quiz approach to integration want to hear, but then this topic tends to hit the button marked "knee-jerk" with many (cf this thread) and over-simplification gets in the way of realism.

Originally posted by kathythebean
Yes, they are the real criminals aren't they! Do you think it's a case of things changing too quickly for the law to keep up? Are there adequate laws to challenge people traffickers? Or is it that we are not yet good enough at international co-operation of governments and police forces?

I think the mechanisms are in place but the political will is lacking.

Years ago, before computer hacking was an actual crime, hackers were prosecuted by the police sitting down with the Law books and examining what laws COULD be applied to the offences committed. So, even though the specific crime didn't exist it was posisble to bust people. Just as Al Capone was busted for Tax Evasion when all else failed, I find it impossible to believe that Police and Customs can't get the ringleaders.

Greenback - would agree totally on integration. But teh first step has to be the breaking away form the day to day way of life of the 'home country'. radition should be cherished, but on day to day life you adopt the ways and mores of your new home.

Joe

Originally posted by sheffco
Back to the thread - - never mind who has paid or not paid, who is legal here? And who is supporting the illegals? Ah!...you make statements without any backup!

I take it that you yourself are milking the benefits system.....As you have said in earlier posts..you have done uni!..but have you paid in?

easy to make assumptions and give opinions as long as it doesn't affect your income!

Who is worried about supporting illegals when we have our own takers to worry..(bother) about!

Originally posted by robbie

As far as I;m concerned as long as the numbers of illegals are kept in check then there isn't a big issue

Illegal migration to this country is impossible to stop.


So would you regard 570,000 (more people than live in Sheffield, the country's 4th largest city) being "kept in check"? Let's face it, even if you do think 1% of the UK population isn't significant, they won't be leaving anytime soon and the figure will keep on growing. The line HAS to be drawn somewhere before the problem really does start having a major impact on this country's infrastructure.

Originally posted by t020
So would you regard 570,000 (more people than live in Sheffield, the country's 4th largest city) being "kept in check"? Let's face it, even if you do think 1% of the UK population isn't significant, they won't be leaving anytime soon and the figure will keep on growing. The line HAS to be drawn somewhere before the problem really does start having a major impact on this country's infrastructure.

More people leave Britain every year than enter...

Originally posted by Greenback
More people leave Britain every year than enter...

The thread isn't [supposedly lol] about how many people enter Britain each year, but about the number who enter illegally with no checks on who they are or where they are or where they are working and how much tax they are missing out on paying.

mm as to the silly comments from braindead I wont give it another comment except to call me a nazi shows how they have lost the argument.
This thread is about the amount of illegals here not about anything else??
I take the figures as probably on the conservative side,I have this idea that whatever they tell you is never the whole truth.

Originally posted by Greenback
More people leave Britain every year than enter...

So this would amplify the problem even further then, since we'd be losing people who economically migrate to other countries and gaining more asylum seekers. That 1% figure will be 10% before we know it.

It is all well and good for those who champion a 'multicultural' vision of Britain and see no dangers attached to further large-scale immigration to label those who feel foreboding regarding the future of race relations as 'racists', 'fascists', 'nazis' etc. The plain fact is that large scale migrations of peoples cause immense social problems. If that immigration is unregulated and out of control, as it most certainly is in Britain, the problems are even worse.

Gradually and inexorably, 'we the people' are becoming 'we another people'. There is no social mandate for such epic cultural and ethnic change, and it is causing great bewilderment, resentment and anger in the majority 'white', Anglo Saxon-Celtic population. Only a fool could possibly deny this. The media certainly play a part in causing 'moral panics' around asylum seekers etc, but the British people are not stupid. They can see for themselves the slow, but sure changes that are taking place in terms of the ethnic composition of the population walking the streets of cities. Whether proponents of 'diversity' like it or not, the vast majority of the 'white' population do not approve of what is happening. They are not at ease with the idea of a 'multicultural' future.

The problem is, various emotional and political forces conspire to inculate the spurious idea that the British are a 'mongrel' nation of 'immigrants'. Without going into population genetics, this is highly debateable re the majority 'white' population. The vast majority of 'white' British descend from two basic ethnic stocks- the indigenous, 'old British' populations wrongly called Celts, and the 'invader', Germanic tribes; Angles, Saxons, Friesians, Danes etc. The majority are far less 'mixed' than propagandists for 'diversity' wish us to think.

Perhaps at long last, after half a century of systematic evasion and pretence on behalf of successive governments re the effects of mass immigration, the message is finally getting through. Politicians know the public are aware of the scale of illegal immigration, and the terrible social problems that we have imported through successive waves of mass immigration. There is no point in 'fudge' or talk of 'living together in an atmosphere of mutual tolerance' as one dead traitor once said. The country is riven through with race-relations problems, and bitter irremediable grudges betwixt certain ethnic groups make the inner city areas of many large, British cities off bounds for non-locals.

Blair's number one priority, and I mean number one, should be to root out every damned one of these illegal immigrants. I do hope that he will heed public concern and act, that is, after he has dealt with the far more important and pressing problems of smoking in public, fox-hunting etc.

Originally posted by timo
They can see for themselves the slow, but sure changes that are taking place in terms of the ethnic composition of the population walking the streets of cities. Whether proponents of 'diversity' like it or not, the vast majority of the 'white' population do not approve of what is happening. They are not at ease with the idea of a 'multicultural' future.

If that was the case, surely the Conservatives would have been elected @ the last GE, after all, they campaigned using this as a "vote grabber", pandering to the lowest common denominator!



Originally posted by timo
The problem is, various emotional and political forces conspire to inculate the spurious idea that the British are a 'mongrel' nation of 'immigrants'. Without going into population genetics, this is highly debateable re the majority 'white' population. The vast majority of 'white' British descend from two basic ethnic stocks- the indigenous, 'old British' populations wrongly called Celts, and the 'invader', Germanic tribes; Angles, Saxons, Friesians, Danes etc. The majority are far less 'mixed' than propagandists for 'diversity' wish us to think.

The whole human race is a race of mongrels.

Without mass migrations, the human race would have ceased to exist aeons ago!



Originally posted by timo
make the inner city areas of many large, British cities off bounds for non-locals.

Maybe it's your prejudices that make you feel these places you speak of are off bounds to non-locals? I drive and walk through all areas on a regular basis and have never felt threatened in any area (with the noticable exception of Low Edges - not exactly known for it's ethnic population - and it was white, late teens who were the problem;)).




One world.

One people.

Simple, really.


Anyone who thinks that being born on a specific piece of rock upon this planet makes them any different to anyone else is (to put it bluntly) a fool!


Everyone needs to accept that today is as different to yesterday, as today is from tomorrow.

Timo , that was , "bang on" and congratulations. You outlined the problems clearly and without bitterness or childish insults.
One thing extra , I'd like to add.
Over the years , we've been inundated from various quarters [ not least the BBC] that we should somehow , "respect" or perhaps even admire other cultures and religions.
Apart from the fact that , in general , a lot of us don't want to be advised or nagged as to what we ought to admire , I find it ludicrous that we should have positive feelings , automatically for a different culture ......etc.....
The implication seems to be that all values and/or opinions are "equally valid. No-one 's opinion is any better than any other. Let's celebrate everything !
I find the whole of this absolute baloney and condescending. I don't admire much about Christianity and I certainly don't admire much about Hindism or the Islamic religions.I can't find a lot to cheer about in their life-styles , either or , rather , I certainly don't want to celebrate , admire or "respect " it. By that , I mean , by all means let any religion or culture flourish if it can , but I don't have to ,"respect" it , [whatever they mean by that ! ]
The trouble now , is that if we vocalise our distaste for any aspect of certain cultures or religions , we are apt to be branded , as you say , Racists or Fascists.......and so on.
If I can laugh at stuff like , "Life Of Brian" and similar , I want the same privelige as regards the lot. I certainly don't want some BBC or other Do-Gooder trying to tell me what my opinions should be.

Originally posted by t020
So would you regard 570,000 (more people than live in Sheffield, the country's 4th largest city) being "kept in check"? Let's face it, even if you do think 1% of the UK population isn't significant, they won't be leaving anytime soon and the figure will keep on growing. The line HAS to be drawn somewhere before the problem really does start having a major impact on this country's infrastructure.

Being kept in check as compared to the "immigrants are taking over" stance that some (not you I know) seem to try and scare people with on these type of threads.

From the info I've seen there is no indication of a sudden mass migration into this country and yes the numbers will rise steadily. They will keep rising until the immigrants' countries are in a much better state.

How do you stop this? Ok, I'll admit a lot of customs officials are wholey inept and incompetent. Its hard to stop individuals getting in though isn't it. We are surrounded by water and therefore access points to this country.

We need to forget targeting individuals and focus all our resources of stoppin gangs of traffickers. I'm quite happy for the Home Office to offer residency incentives to individuals who will "grass" on people traffickers who bought them in to the country.

people will always look for the best life for themselves and their families. Its the people who exploit them that makes me sick.

Sccsux
By your reckoning it sounds as if someone living in New York city is about the same in background , lifestyle , opinions and experience as someone who's spent their life in the Gobi desert.
Of course there's been a lot of migration over the centuries but it certainly hasn't always been peaceful or pleasant or easy. Think of what the immigrants in America did as regards the native Americans .......or the Australian aboriginees.....or the Spanish in South America........etc.......
There has been peaceful migrations , no doubt , but surely the point Timo was making is that the more organised and controlled the migration , the fewer problems. Conversely , the more disorganised and uncontrolled , the more likely the problems.
If the British are such a narrow minded , racialist-inclined bunch of people , why do you thoink that complaints have only increased about immigration during the last 3 decades ? Do you think it could be to do with numbers ? When we had fewer immigrants we were always regarded as just about the most compassionate country on earth. I wonder what's made us change ?
When people vote for a party , they usually vote on a number of issues. Both the Conservatives and Labour seemed quite close on their immigration policies , so I don't think people voted with that uppermost in their minds.

Originally posted by Fareast
By your reckoning it sounds as if someone living in New York city is about the same in background , lifestyle , opinions and experience as someone who's spent their life in the Gobi desert.



If I thought that, then I'd be extremely naive.



Originally posted by Fareast
Think of what the immigrants in America did as regards the native Americans .......or the Australian aboriginees.....or the Spanish in South America........etc.......

They're not migrations. They're conquests. Also known as Genocide.
All commited by Europeans:(.

I really don't think that this will happen here though (or in these more, allegedly, enlightened times) even if the illegal immigrants increase 3 or 4 fold;).



Originally posted by Fareast
If the British are such a narrow minded , racialist-inclined bunch of people , why do you thoink that complaints have only increased about immigration during the last 3 decades ? Do you think it could be to do with numbers ? When we had fewer immigrants we were always regarded as just about the most compassionate country on earth. I wonder what's made us change?

I don't think the British people are "such a narrow minded , racialist-inclined bunch of people".
But I do think a minority are.



Originally posted by Fareast
When people vote for a party , they usually vote on a number of issues. Both the Conservatives and Labour seemed quite close on their immigration policies , so I don't think people voted with that uppermost in their minds.

I'm aware of this, however, the Tories kept on banging the imigration drum, even when there were more important issues needing discussion;).

sccsux
Well , I dont think the people who originally went to America went with the intention of killing anyone. They had no idea who was there at the beginning. For quite a time afterwards the American Indians and newcomers got on fairly well together , trading and so forth.
However , as more and more people arrived . the newcomers were more and more impatient to expand economically and this led to the battles. It wasn't genocide in the Nazi meaning of the word or they would never have survived on Reservations , poor as they were. You are just using the term genocide as an emotive word to help your argument along.
A similar thing happened in Australia as happened in America , with differences of detail.
What's the point of mentioning that they were Europeans who mainly went to America ? Migration is migration is migration !
The whole point about a large number of people , percentage -wise , moving into a new place , is that if it is done ad hoc and without restraint , it leads to problems. It doesn't matter who is going where , if the situation is illegal or chaotic , then trouble starts.
Incidentally , although , most of the people arriving into America in the 19th. and early 20th. century were from settled countries and were arriving in a fresh land , there were numerous problems of culture , background and religion. Why did all American cities have their , "Little Italies " , "Little Russias" , ,'Chinatowns" and so forth. Even today , Black people , Jewish people and certain others would find it difficult to get into rich country clubs. Have you heard about the problems Black people suffer in America ?
It's a simple fact that any mass movement of people from one place to another can and does carry the seeds of trouble. The more it's done thoughtlessly , the worse the problem.
As a matter of interest , I wonder if this government would run a poll , organised by the Electoral Society on immigration ? And agree beforehand to act on its findings ? I think you'd get a surprise to discover how many , "racialists " there were in Britain. if it was ever carried out.

Originally posted by Fareast
I think you'd get a surprise to discover how many , "racialists " there were in Britain. if it was ever carried out.

I still maintain, we are one race, and should help each other as much as is possible.

Regardless of origins.

And would hope my fellow countrymen (and women :rolleyes:) would think the same.


BTW. Mass killings of the indigenous population is genocide (or "Ethnic Cleansing" if you want to dress it up) in my opinion:P;).




Originally posted by Fareast
What's the point of mentioning that they were Europeans who mainly went to America ?

We (the Europeans) went with the specific intent of colonisation/conquest/enslavery (the Spanish that went to South America were even named conquestadors - which should tell you something)!. Not one was fleeing a regime that would happily torture or kill them, yet that is what faces many imigrants here?

Originally posted by t020
So this would amplify the problem even further then, since we'd be losing people who economically migrate to other countries and gaining more asylum seekers. That 1% figure will be 10% before we know it.

Hahaha really? I honestly can't believe you see the world is such ridiculously simplistic terms. Let me make something clear for you (concentrate hard):

Not all the people who leave Britain are economic migrants

Not all the people who enter Britain are asylum seekers


I know it's complicated, but that's the way the world is. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by timo
Whether proponents of 'diversity' like it or not, the vast majority of the 'white' population do not approve of what is happening. They are not at ease with the idea of a 'multicultural' future.

Multiculturalism isn't the future. It's here, and has been for some time.

I'd also question whether the "vast majority" of white people are as racially and culturally intolerant as you make out. We're a good lot, mostly.

Mod. Note

OK...back on topic, please.

This isn't about the rights and wrongs of immigration per se, but about the ILLEGAL immigration issue.

Joe

Originally posted by Greenback
Hahaha really? I honestly can't believe you see the world is such ridiculously simplistic terms. Let me make something clear for you (concentrate hard):

Not all the people who leave Britain are economic migrants

Not all the people who enter Britain are asylum seekers


I know it's complicated, but that's the way the world is. :rolleyes:


Don't patronise me. I'd say most people who leave Britain are economic migrants and the number of illegal immigrants entering the country is clearly worse than the government thought (no-one can realistically deny that 1% of the population living here illegally is NOT a problem). It's pretty obvious that this percentage will only increase unless things are tightened up, but I fear New Labour's answer will be to change the definition of an "illegal immigrant" so as to fudge their statistics.

Originally posted by robbie
Being kept in check as compared to the "immigrants are taking over" stance that some (not you I know) seem to try and scare people with on these type of threads.

From the info I've seen there is no indication of a sudden mass migration into this country and yes the numbers will rise steadily. They will keep rising until the immigrants' countries are in a much better state.

How do you stop this? Ok, I'll admit a lot of customs officials are wholey inept and incompetent. Its hard to stop individuals getting in though isn't it. We are surrounded by water and therefore access points to this country.

We need to forget targeting individuals and focus all our resources of stoppin gangs of traffickers. I'm quite happy for the Home Office to offer residency incentives to individuals who will "grass" on people traffickers who bought them in to the country.

people will always look for the best life for themselves and their families. Its the people who exploit them that makes me sick.


You're right in thinking I'm not of the opinion that asylum seekers are "taking over" in any way, but I do feel it is a problem that is gradually growing worse. We can't really know to what extent it will really effect things, if at all, only time will tell that.

With regards border control, one would think that the fact our borders are all sea and not land would make things easier to control? A bit like a moat outside of a castle.

Originally posted by sccsux
If I thought that, then I'd be extremely naive.





They're not migrations. They're conquests. Also known as Genocide.
All commited by Europeans:(.



I really don't think that this will happen here though (or in these more, allegedly, enlightened times) even if the illegal immigrants increase 3 or 4 fold;).





I don't think the British people are "such a narrow minded , racialist-inclined bunch of people".
But I do think a minority are.





I'm aware of this, however, the Tories kept on banging the imigration drum, even when there were more important issues needing discussion;). Further to you very sensible points. The Native Americans far from being war mongering and primitive, they actually helped the white settlers to survive in a country were they were out of there depth. They couldn't grow crops and feed themselves and would probably have died during their first winter here. The Native Americans help them feed themselves and stay warm and were thanked by having their own country taken over and were made outcasts! I do realise all Native American tribes were not 'friendly:)

I don't think people in general are anti other nationalities either. Tabloid reports of asylum seekers living in mansions and claiming £200,000 a year in benefits don't help the situation but would if that were true I wouldn't turn it down!:D

I think that being an island like has been said would and should make it easier to control who comes here,but then this is only the case when you have the political will to enforce it,which is plainly not the case now.
To admit that you have around half a million people who should not be here is to admit you have failed to get to grips with the situation.
And while we are on the subject who will know how many of these illegals are terorists waiting to strike at our country?
I beleive that inspite the British being a tolerant people this will certainly change if this is not dealt with in the near future.
We are simply storing up trouble for the future if we dont deal with it properly.

Originally posted by t020
Don't patronise me. I'd say most people who leave Britain are economic migrants and the number of illegal immigrants entering the country is clearly worse than the government thought (no-one can realistically deny that 1% of the population living here illegally is NOT a problem). It's pretty obvious that this percentage will only increase unless things are tightened up, but I fear New Labour's answer will be to change the definition of an "illegal immigrant" so as to fudge their statistics.

There's no evidence to suggest this number will increase - the number of asylum applications has fallen over the past few years, so logically one would assume the number of illegal immigrants entering the country has decreased too (and will continue to do so follwing current trends).

Of course it's a problem. But talk of a mass influx of witchcraft, terrorism, paedophilia etc etc does nothing to address the fact that the issue is in the processing of applications, and simply serves to stoke the fires that royjames's odious BNP lot play upon. Better to concentrate on practical steps, methinks.

Originally posted by Greenback
There's no evidence to suggest this number will increase - the number of asylum applications has fallen over the past few years, so logically one would assume the number of illegal immigrants entering the country has decreased too (and will continue to do so follwing current trends).

Or that they've just given up on the legal method and decided it's easier to enter illegally.


Originally posted by Greenback

Of course it's a problem. But talk of a mass influx of witchcraft, terrorism, paedophilia etc etc does nothing to address the fact that the issue is in the processing of applications, and simply serves to stoke the fires that royjames's odious BNP lot play upon. Better to concentrate on practical steps, methinks.

Of "witchcraft, terrorism, paedophilia" I mentioned.... NONE.

Originally posted by sccsux
I still maintain, we are one race, and should help each other as much as is possible.

Regardless of origins.

And would hope my fellow countrymen (and women :rolleyes:) would think the same.


BTW. Mass killings of the indigenous population is genocide (or "Ethnic Cleansing" if you want to dress it up) in my opinion:P;).






We (the Europeans) went with the specific intent of colonisation/conquest/enslavery (the Spanish that went to South America were even named conquestadors - which should tell you something)!. Not one was fleeing a regime that would happily torture or kill them, yet that is what faces many imigrants here?
Oh! it is so nice to see that the do gooder nice people that frequent this forum can state what they like just so long as it doesnt cost them anything.
The real world is that we have people coming in here that we firstly have no information about.......A number of them have been involved in terrorist activities.....some have even blown themselves up in Iraq....with British citizenship and place of abode.

Easy to say! hey! I don't mind mass ilegal immigration it it isn't costing you anything!

This is personal and I may get banned for my comments but ...Answer one question!.......Do you work to earn a living or do you take money from the tax payer?

My point in here is that everyone that seems to want to help everyone has no income of their own nor do they have any resources to give themselves.

Great to be able to give an opinion without giving anything!

Originally posted by Delboy3
Oh! it is so nice to see that the do gooder nice people that frequent this forum can state what they like just so long as it doesnt cost them anything.

Do you know me?

Thought not!



Originally posted by Delboy3
The real world is that we have people coming in here that we firstly have no information about.......A number of them have been involved in terrorist activities.....some have even blown themselves up in Iraq....with British citizenship and place of abode.

Blame The Shrubs (Junior & Senior) & The Bliar for creating a climate of hatred & fear!



Originally posted by Delboy3
Easy to say! hey! I don't mind mass ilegal immigration it it isn't costing you anything!

And your assumption for this comes from where, exactly? I take it you mean cost in "financial" terms, rather than human costs!




Originally posted by Delboy3
My point in here is that everyone that seems to want to help everyone has no income of their own nor do they have any resources to give themselves.

Great to be able to give an opinion without giving anything!

Do you know me?

Are you my mum?

Then stop spouting garbage about people you know nothing about.

Originally posted by sccsux
Do you know me?

Thought not!





Blame The Shrubs (Junior & Senior) & The Bliar for creating a climate of hatred & fear!





And your assumption for this comes from where, exactly? I take it you mean cost in "financial" terms, rather than human costs!






Do you know me?

Are you my mum?

Then stop spouting garbage about people you know nothing about.
and you hav'nt answered a single question....So I take it that you are a Bum that lives off others hard work....

Great to be able to spout about giving and the poor etc whilst screwing the system .....

Originally posted by Delboy3
So I take it that you are a Bum that lives off others hard work....

And I'll take it you're an arse, OK?

Doesn't mean either of us will be right though.


BTW. If you want to attack me, take it to PM;).

Originally posted by miniminch
So, nice and easy life then, Craig? You try it! It's always the wimps that have the strongest stance.

And I'm pro-immigration. Make them legal and you stop all those problems over night.

and anyway we've all done one or two of those - if we are honest.


YES but how many problems do you think will occur if they do make it legal????


would brithish citizens be just as welcome in there countries??


NO

Originally posted by sccsux
And I'll take it you're an arse, OK?

Doesn't mean either of us will be right though.


BTW. If you want to attack me, take it to PM;).
I dont need PM ......Still you hav'nt answered any of my questions.........

Your posts and comments regarding illegals point to you wanting these practices to carry on regardless......as It seems that you are not paying for this in any way....it just makes me curiouse as to why and how you can put these statements in here whilst scrounging from the system yourself...(I read between the lines )

I bet those figures are miles away from the actual numbers illegally living in this country.

All the people that have gone to Iraq to help rebuild there life.

why is it that even though they are trying to help them they still kidnapp workers and then exicute them??

how do you think the victims family felt seeing there loved one on the news begging for there life.

would they let others go over to their country and live there??

NO, we wouldnt last a day.

so, this is why they will never make it legal.

because rules have to work both ways not just one! but yet british and other countries still welcome them with opend arms to help.

even though it would never happen if it was the other way round..

Originally posted by foxy027
I bet those figures are miles away from the actual numbers illegally living in this country.


I agree,

british government havent got a clue, they just tell us what they think we should know, they wont say how many exactly just in case its absalutley loads, as some places may riot and get very angry

Originally posted by LEANAH
I agree,

british government havent got a clue, they just tell us what they think we should know, they wont say how many exactly just in case its absalutley loads, as some places may riot and get very angry


they should listen to the public more, cos they dont know what there doing at the minute!!!

Originally posted by Delboy3
Your posts and comments regarding illegals point to you wanting these practices to carry on regardless......

Though I have never stated that I wish to see the process continue ad infinatum?

I just think it is a consiquence of our actions and we should at least face up to the possibilty that through the actions of our ancestors, we left prosperous countries in the hands of dictators when the British Empire was disbanded.



Originally posted by Delboy3
as It seems that you are not paying for this in any way....

So, how do I not pay?

Do I offer our services (work) for free?

If I do, then why do I have to fill in tax returns each year (and have done so since the introduction of the self assesment system).

Does this mean I don't have to buy my NI stamps?

Everyone pays.

Even the illegals, in a round about way. Everyone eats. Everyone needs clothing. All have costs. All have taxes:confused:



Originally posted by Delboy3
(I read between the lines )

Get your eyes tested then. They're playing tricks on you.

Read some of my other posts, rather than basing you (ilfound) opinions on me from this single thread!

I'm pretty certain I've mentioned on this forum what it is I do for a living (not everyone feels the need to mention it every five minutes).

Originally posted by Greenback
There's no evidence to suggest this number will increase - the number of asylum applications has fallen over the past few years, so logically one would assume the number of illegal immigrants entering the country has decreased too (and will continue to do so follwing current trends).

Of course it's a problem. But talk of a mass influx of witchcraft, terrorism, paedophilia etc etc does nothing to address the fact that the issue is in the processing of applications, and simply serves to stoke the fires that royjames's odious BNP lot play upon. Better to concentrate on practical steps, methinks.

and as well with the new EU states the number of illegals who have become "legal" is quite high.

Originally posted by LEANAH
I agree,

british government havent got a clue, they just tell us what they think we should know, they wont say how many exactly just in case its absalutley loads, as some places may riot and get very angry

and you have a much better idea of the illegal immigrant number in this country do you? :loopy:

it's obviously miles more because you say so......

these places that may riot?.....

Originally posted by LEANAH
All the people that have gone to Iraq to help rebuild there life.

why is it that even though they are trying to help them they still kidnapp workers and then exicute them??

how do you think the victims family felt seeing there loved one on the news begging for there life.

would they let others go over to their country and live there??

NO, we wouldnt last a day.

so, this is why they will never make it legal.

because rules have to work both ways not just one! but yet british and other countries still welcome them with opend arms to help.

even though it would never happen if it was the other way round..

I suspect that its easier for me to go live in Iraq than for an Iraqi to be able to live here.

Plus, it's a whole different issue. The people executing aid workers aren't normal Iraqis but foreign militants or former Saddam supporters.

I will feel a bit more concerned tomorrow morning when I walk to university tomorrow morning coz..I will feel more number of people around me watching me as an alien .....(although not expressing any feelings towards me).
Is all this discussion worth it...when some one is pointing a finger s/he has three of them pointing towards him/herself.
I feel really insecure after reading the whole of this thread....

Originally posted by spilli
I will feel a bit more concerned tomorrow morning when I walk to university tomorrow morning coz..I will feel more number of people around me watching me as an alien .....(although not expressing any feelings towards me).
Is all this discussion worth it...when some one is pointing a finger s/he has three of them pointing towards him/herself.
I feel really insecure after reading the whole of this thread.... Thats terrible. Please don't feel this way. You are going to uni to get an education, learn skills to do a valuable job and I don't think you should feel insecure about that - you should hold you head up and be proud! The majority of people won't have any ill feelings towards you & the ones that do aren't worth worrying about. Can you say why you feel so bad about this thread? If you feel uncomfortable openly putting a post on here, pm me!

Originally posted by spilli
I will feel a bit more concerned tomorrow morning when I walk to university tomorrow morning coz..I will feel more number of people around me watching me as an alien .....(although not expressing any feelings towards me).
Is all this discussion worth it...when some one is pointing a finger s/he has three of them pointing towards him/herself.
I feel really insecure after reading the whole of this thread.... I am classed as an alien too but in the U.S.A

I Believe its against race.....I consider myself a human being ...I strongly have the same feelings for anyone.....why cant all work towards a better world rather

Sccsux

I don't want to labour the point but I thought everyone knew that from Europe , America was discovered by accident , in the first instant. The Europeans did not arrive with vast armies , intent on taking over the country.
In fact for a long time the Native Americans and Europeans helped each other and traded and it was only as the Eoropean numbers grew and they saw profit in expanding westwards that conflicts then began. Later , one of the main reasons people went to America was precisely to escape persecution in their home countries. [The Protestants from Holland , The Jews from Russia......etc....]
As I said , it hardly matters on the details of why people migrate--------the important point is , is that if migration is illegal and unrestrained , the problems grow------if not , the converse.
The words , "ethnic cleansing " or , "genocide " are both silly to use in describing what happened in America and they just cheapen the language.
The Nazis tried to kill ANY Jew , regardless of background. Some Jews had served bravely in the 1st. World War and even won the Iron Cross. It made not the slightest difference-----the Nazi philosophy was to exterminate every last one , simply because they were Jewish-----no other reason was needed.
In the American case , the Europeans wanted the Native American's land------that was the principal reason for the problems and killings.That's why , once the Europeans had got what they wanted , they largely left the Native Americans alone. The whole scenario was different from the Nazi actions.

Originally posted by spilli
I will feel a bit more concerned tomorrow morning when I walk to university tomorrow morning coz..I will feel more number of people around me watching me as an alien .....(although not expressing any feelings towards me).
Is all this discussion worth it...when some one is pointing a finger s/he has three of them pointing towards him/herself.
I feel really insecure after reading the whole of this thread....

Are you an illegal immigrant living here illegally? If so, so you should feel uneasy (and I hope you get caught soon). If not, what's the problem? This topic is about *illegal* immigrants only.

Originally posted by royjames
Hang on Patchy,this is only illegals,it does not include 750,000 asylum seekers who are here and either been accepted or refused permision to stay.
So the 1 in a 100 is not the whole picture.

Here we go again......yet another racist rant. Only this time royjames now muddies his own his original post (about government estimates on the number of illegal immigrants) with figures on asylum seekers. The former are here illegally, the latter are here legally.

Do try and stay on topic roy....even more so when it's your own topic!

Illegal immigrants fall prey to gangmasters. Remember the Chinese who drowned picking cockle shells on Morecombe Bay?

Originally posted by spilli
I Believe its against race.....I consider myself a human being ...I strongly have the same feelings for anyone.....why cant all work towards a better world rather Most of us can. Don't worry please. I personally wouldn't listen to anything a true racist had to say. Every country is against illegal immigration. Ot's nothing personal against the people who do it, we all would if we needed to escape a terrible life. I cannot condone illegal immigration but I can understand it. Most people who are anti illegal immigration are NOT racists, If you are at uni you must be legal and you will have noticed that people in general will be interested in you rather than against you? What country are you from?:)

To20.....how thick r u ?....I am telling u that I am at Uni and u seem to classify me as illegal.....what business do I have to be illegal....?
sorry mate...I couldnt resist ...
Some of the posts here did mention about legal immigrants ....
hey mate it took me an hour for me to go through all the 900 + posts...

Tulip...I am from India......

Right.....please guys if u have a problem with illegal immigrants please stick with that....dont include legal immigrants......they r here on a purpose which helps both the parties...... Can u imagine how much revenue does a university makes from international students....?....each international student shells out almost 4 times what an home student pays towards tution.!
Is this justified in the first instance...?
I wish my country's education system has all the technology together.!

I am not asking you guys to show a mark of respect for all above...its just ...that lets try to live in harmony and please make my stay in UK trouble free one.....so that I dont need to take any 'XYZ' Memories back to India.....

cheers

S Pilli

Originally posted by spilli
To20.....how thick r u ?....I am telling u that I am at Uni and u seem to classify me as illegal.....what business do I have to be illegal....?
sorry mate...I couldnt resist ...
Some of the posts here did mention about legal immigrants ....
hey mate it took me an hour for me to go through all the 900 + posts...

Tulip...I am from India......

Right.....please guys if u have a problem with illegal immigrants please stick with that....dont include legal immigrants......they r here on a purpose which helps both the parties...... Can u imagine how much revenue does a university makes from international students....?....each international student shells out almost 4 times what an home student pays towards tution.!
Is this justified in the first instance...?
I wish my country's education system has all the technology together.!

I am not asking you guys to show a mark of respect for all above...its just ...that lets try to live in harmony and please make my stay in UK trouble free one.....so that I dont need to take any 'XYZ' Memories back to India.....

cheers

S Pilli Good for you! I hope you will take lots of good memories home with you. I'm sure you will have a lot more possitive experiences than bad ones. I am a bit down myself at the moment. Apparently my post's are offensive to various people and I insulted Royjames amongst others. So, it's a good thing you noticed the insulting tone of this thread too. I just hope you won't classify the British as all the same and take that home with you! :)

Well at least you admit to insulting me,why you felt the need to do so when you dont even know me is another matter?
And to be honest I dont think you can have much info on the situation in this country seeing as you dont live here,maybe you ought to confine your comments to American issues seeing as you live there??
I dont normally go into personal attacks as its pointless,its something that maybe you ought to think about too?

Originally posted by royjames

And to be honest I dont think you can have much info on the situation in this country seeing as you dont live here,maybe you ought to confine your comments to American issues seeing as you live there??


Originally posted by spilli
please make my stay in UK trouble free one.....so that I dont need to take any 'XYZ' Memories back to India.....

cheers

S Pilli

Royjames why did you say spilli lives in the US when he's just said he's in the UK?

Spilli where DO you live? Are you at uni in Sheffield?

yes i am at SHU

Its probably Royjames was pointing towards 'Tulip' who was originally from sheffield but now lives in Idaho..

Right.....please guys if u have a problem with illegal immigrants please stick with that....dont include legal immigrants......they r here on a purpose which helps both the parties......

S Pilli [/B][/QUOTE]


ACTUALLY it doesnt help both parties at all!!

how do you work that out??, if it was helping both parties then british citizens wouldnt have such a big problem with illegal and legal immigrants,

each citizen should have to live permanently in there own country, but are allowed to go for a holiday of no more than 30 days!!

this way british citizens can live in a british country, all one language etc

and same with Iraq, spain, and all other countries.

it is so disrespectfull to english people who have lived here all there lives and there family etc, and then you go to a shop etc and there is legal & prob illegal immigrants speaking their language what no-one else can understand

I think if we are going to allow immigrants to come here they should be able to speak english

K thanks spilli for clearing that one up. :)

So...back onto illegal immigrants.

There is something to be said (by me, at any rate) for being uncomfortable at having a higher standard of living than other people merely because I live here and they don't.

I'm not talking about scroungers, layabouts, drunks, druggies or other wasters who can't be bothered/can't work. I'm talking about people who are willing and able to work to provide for their families and can't because of the conditions (whatever they are) in their country.

What right do we have to stop people moving to our country to try to earn a better life???

What makes it 'our' country? Because we were born here? Because we contribute to the economy and don't want 'them' benefiting from the NHS/social security benefits etc? There're an awful lot of 'illegal immigrants' who want only to be allowed to work and pay their way and contribute to our economy.

What right do we have to make them stay in the country of their birth?


Are all men not equal??

Originally posted by spilli
Its probably Royjames was pointing towards 'Tulip' who was originally from sheffield but now lives in Idaho..

You're probably right :D

I believe ur motto was Speaking English!...

Well, U may not understand how much legal immigration could help in this globalizing world.
Think about Northern General Hospitals...Can u expect a Hospital without doctors......This country has shortage of doctors....which needs to be filled up by some one...thus we see a need for legal immigration...
Think about Universities....Can u imagine how much revenue does the government and universities makes on these international students?
I am not saying legal immigration is healthy......but when in need no one can stop them...
At the same time don't include international students in this legal immigration hassle...I believe we are here to gain knowledge but not at the @ bullying by anyone..

Originally posted by royjames

And while we are on the subject who will know how many of these illegals are terorists waiting to strike at our country?


Just read this post (reading back thru the thread) and really had to comment. What a curious thing to say, royjames! You could have said 'who will know how many bus passengers are terrorists, or how many Meadowhall shoppers or how many mums collecting from my boy's school'!! But no. Why pick on 'illegals'? It's inflamatory talk, plain and simple. Designed to rake up racist thoughts......presumably.

Originally posted by royjames

I beleive that inspite the British being a tolerant people this will certainly change if this is not dealt with in the near future.
We are simply storing up trouble for the future if we dont deal with it properly.

Rivers of blood, royjames, perchance?

Originally posted by spilli
To20.....how thick r u ?....I am telling u that I am at Uni and u seem to classify me as illegal.....what business do I have to be illegal....?
sorry mate...I couldnt resist ...
Some of the posts here did mention about legal immigrants ....
hey mate it took me an hour for me to go through all the 900 + posts...


Not very thick... I was merely making the point that if you're not an illegal immigrant (which I wasn't suggesting you were) then you have nothing to fear. I didn't see any posts about legal immigrants but rest assured I have no problem with them and wish you well with your university course. :)

Is it possible for the silly little boys and girls who resort to calling other posters 'fools', 'arses' and 'thick' to grow up a tad? The forum is turning into a magnet for infantile, maladjusted types who cannot believe that anyone would possibly dissent from their [often callow] opinions. In short, it is becoming a 'drag', in common parlance.

Originally posted by royjames
Well at least you admit to insulting me,why you felt the need to do so when you dont even know me is another matter?
And to be honest I dont think you can have much info on the situation in this country seeing as you dont live here,maybe you ought to confine your comments to American issues seeing as you live there??
I dont normally go into personal attacks as its pointless,its something that maybe you ought to think about too? I'm sorry. You are right I don't know you. I don't think I really insulted you, I made a couple of off the cuff comments that wasn't very well thought out. I think the Enoch Powell quote might have given me the wrong idea about you.

I don't feel able to restrict my views to U.S issues as I am a foreigner in this country, I've only lived here for 18 months. I lived in England for 37 years and I don't think it's changed so much since I left, maybe I'm wrong. The same issues were going on quite a while before I moved from the U.K. I'm certainly not planning to start calling people names - I will leave that to the others.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SHsheff
[B]K thanks spilli for clearing that one up. :)

So...back onto illegal immigrants.

There is something to be said (by me, at any rate) for being uncomfortable at having a higher standard of living than other people merely because I live here and they don't.

I'm not talking about scroungers, layabouts, drunks, druggies or other wasters who can't be bothered/can't work.



so if u cant work your a scrounger???


many people cant work through disabilitys and other reasons, so there bad??

I hope you are also going to apply those rules to British people who go abroad to work for a few years, make loads of money and not pay U.K taxes? They should learn to speak the language of the country they are going to work in and not converse with other English people in their own language. Would British people be allowed to go to say China on a contracting job for 2 years and never speak English?

Originally posted by tulip
I hope you are also going to apply those rules to British people who go abroad to work for a few years, make loads of money and not pay U.K taxes? They should learn to speak the language of the country they are going to work in and not converse with other English people in their own language. Would British people be allowed to go to say China on a contracting job for 2 years and never speak English?


if they can speak cineese also then its ok.

you are an immigrant so ur not going to agree with our opinions.

i totally agree about helping others who generally need it, i support charitys my self and gave money to the tsunami appeal.

but i wouldnt go to iraq to help rebuild it because they dont appreciate what we are trying to do for them.

Originally posted by paulprh
if they can speak cineese also then its ok.

you are an immigrant so ur not going to agree with our opinions.

i totally agree about helping others who generally need it, i support charitys my self and gave money to the tsunami appeal.

but i wouldnt go to iraq to help rebuild it because they dont appreciate what we are trying to do for them. That might be difficult. You will find a lot of people in other countries can speak English even when it is not their native language.

As far as rebuilding Iraq is concerned - it's not what the thread is about- but who made Iraq need to be rebuilt?

I think as a immigrant in a foreign country it gives me an insight into how things work. I am fully legal and this thread was started by someone who wanted to talk about ILLEGAL immigrants. The U.S has it's own policies on immigration and non-English speaking people are allowed passes to work here. A lot of schools here teach Spanish to make life a little easier for everyone.
:)

Originally posted by paulprh


but i wouldnt go to iraq to help rebuild it because they dont appreciate what we are trying to do for them.
Please explain what it is that we are trying to do in iraq!

Before we invaded this sovereign country..they had order and even though Sadam and his henchmen were dictators and tyrants, They did have everything under control where every one knew their place.

What we have done is create instability where there was once an economy and peace...(of a kind!)

I do agree that anyone moving to another country should learn the language and speak it when in the company of those country men.
There is nothing more unmannered than someone talking another language whilst in the company of others that don't under stand it!

I myself speak several languages....but only speak them when I am in the company of people from those different countries.

Originally posted by Delboy3
Please explain what it is that we are trying to do in iraq!

Before we invaded this sovereign country..they had order and even though Sadam and his henchmen were dictators and tyrants, They did have everything under control where every one knew their place.

What we have done is create instability where there was once an economy and peace...(of a kind!)

I do agree that anyone moving to another country should learn the language and speak it when in the company of those country men.
There is nothing more unmannered than someone talking another language whilst in the company hers that don't under stand it!

I myself speak several languages....but only speak them when I am in the company of people from those different countries. We did in Iraq what our governments through history have always done. We interferred for the peoples 'own good' even though they didn't want us to. The governments used the bad treatment of the people in Iraq as an excuse to tug at our heart strings. They tried to convince us that the people of Iraq would benefit - the Iraqi's just didn't know it. I don't think many people of the U.K and the U.S fell for it though!:)

Seems to me we are moving off the topic,illegal immigrants living here.?

Originally posted by royjames
Seems to me we are moving off the topic,illegal immigrants living here.?
Sorry about that Roy!....

There are no illegal immigrants living in the uk!

They are now given work permits so that they can be reclassified as migrant workers.

Originally posted by paulprh
it is so disrespectfull to english people who have lived here all there lives and there family etc, and then you go to a shop etc and there is legal & prob illegal immigrants speaking their language what no-one else can understand


Strange, I went into Nonnas for a coffee the other day and I quite liked sitting listening to some people talking Italian. I didn’t feel as if they were disrespecting me at all. I really don’t see why you feel so violated simply by hearing people talk in a language you don’t understand.

Do you ever go abroad? If so I’d really like to learn how you, your family and friends all manage to instantly learn foreign languages so as to avoid disrespecting locals by speaking a language they can't understand

Originally posted by Disco_Cat
Strange, I went into Nonnas for a coffee the other day and I quite liked sitting listening to some people talking Italian. I didn’t feel as if they were disrespecting me at all. I really don’t see why you feel so violated simply by hearing people talk in a language you don’t understand.

Do you ever go abroad? If so I’d really like to learn how you, your family and friends all manage to instantly learn foreign languages so as to avoid disrespecting locals by speaking a language they can't understand
Dis net soos ek as ek praat n' noger taal op hier.
Julle mense praatjie Engels en dit is nie reg om my te praat in Afrikaans.

Originally posted by Delboy3
Dis net soos ek as ek praat n' noger taal op hier.
Julle mense praatjie Engels en dit is nie reg om my te praat in Afrikaans. :) I think you made your point, about the only thing I recognise is that you speak Afikaans. I know quite a few South Africans but they always spoke perfect English so I didn't learn much - I could make myself look like a know it all and have it translated by someone in South Africa and reply to you but I won't make out I'm something that I'm not, I'd fall flat on my face:D Did you say you had a wife who was South African? I have friends in Oudshorn and Jo'berg, it's such a small country your wife is bound to know them:P

Originally posted by paulprh
Originally posted by SHsheff


So...back onto illegal immigrants.

There is something to be said (by me, at any rate) for being uncomfortable at having a higher standard of living than other people merely because I live here and they don't.

I'm not talking about scroungers, layabouts, drunks, druggies or other wasters who can't be bothered/can't work.



so if u cant work your a scrounger???


many people cant work through disabilitys and other reasons, so there bad??

Only if they fall into the category of "scroungers, layabouts, drunks, druggies or other wasters" :D

Which most of them don't - any more than do the majority of the able-bodied population.

Cummon m8, there's enough debate on here without misreading posts.

:thumbsup:

Originally posted by paulprh
you are an immigrant so ur not going to agree with our opinions.



Rather a sweeping statement that, wasn't it paulprh? And 'sides, tulip has also lived in places where I'm sure she has been as 'native' as anyone else. If anything, her personal experience will have widened not narrowed her outlook.


:thumbsup:

Originally posted by Delboy3
Dis net soos ek as ek praat n' noger taal op hier.
Julle mense praatjie Engels en dit is nie reg om my te praat in Afrikaans.

Mod:

Regardless of this discussion, Sheffield Forum is an English speaking website, so we would appreciate members to only post in English.

Originally posted by SHsheff
Rather a sweeping statement that, wasn't it paulprh? And 'sides, tulip has also lived in places where I'm sure she has been as 'native' as anyone else. If anything, her personal experience will have widened not narrowed her outlook.


:thumbsup: Thanks. I would say that is true. It hasn't just widened my out look but opened my eyes VERY wide! Going through the legal channels is very traumatic and stressful. It is not to be taken lightly. Having to adapt to a new country is hard enough but go through the immigration process is not something I would wish on anybody. Of course it has to be done otherwise you would feel even worse about living in a foreign country, never knowing when you were to be thrown out. I can't begin to imagine how difficult that would be!

Honestly, I can understand why someone would escape a terrible life to move to Britain and live there illegally. Doing it legally would be even more frightening to someone who didn't speak or understand the language.

Being able to speak English would benefit the immigrants too. It amazes me how quickily people from non-English speaking countries pick up our difficult language!

Originally posted by Tony
Mod:

Regardless of this discussion, Sheffield Forum is an English speaking website, so we would appreciate members to only post in English.
Sorry Tony, Just making a point that not only is it rude to speak another language when the majority are English but also that it is frustrating when people do so.....

You also answered a question......The forum is an Engish language only site,
So easy for people to comment on the useage of others language when in a forum that only allows one language!

wait a minute i swear this subject is being posted on already....

amiee xx

Originally posted by tulip
It amazes me how quickily people from non-English speaking countries pick up our difficult language!

So you admit how difficult it is to speak American? All that double-shot-skinny-latte stuff, for eg? :D

Not to mention hold-the-dog-extra-onions-no-cheese..............

Trust me girl I still haven't got the hang of it :(

Originally posted by SHsheff
So you admit how difficult it is to speak American? All that double-shot-skinny-latte stuff, for eg? :D

Not to mention hold-the-dog-extra-onions-no-cheese..............

Trust me girl I still haven't got the hang of it :( :clap: You are totally right there. DO NOT try asking someone for a rubber to erase a mistake, always say you are going to 'smoke a cigarette', don't use the slang term you could be arrested for it! No one knows what a lorry is etc, etc.

On a serious note, having to adapt to a country were we supposedly both speak the same language is hard enough. I wouldn't have survived in a country where I didn't speak the language at all! You have to admire people who get by in England without knowing what anyone is saying.

Originally posted by tulip
I wouldn't have survived in a country where I didn't speak the language at all! You have to admire people who get by in England without knowing what anyone is saying.

I am in awe at amiee's command of the English language.

It's better than that of some who profess to have been born here............but then I guess intelligence will out!!! hehehe

Amiee, where are you from? Spain?? Why are you here? Uni? Work?

i am half portuguese quater spanish quater english.

i lived in portugal till i was 3 and then barbados till i was 16 i moved here when i was 16 because of family problems.

thankyou i speak 4 languages english is my last i guess that why i learnt this one so quickly

amiee xx

Originally posted by amiee_sheff
i am half portuguese quater spanish quater english.

i lived in portugal till i was 3 and then barbados till i was 16 i moved here when i was 16 because of family problems.

thankyou i speak 4 languages english is my last i guess that why i learnt this one so quickly

amiee xx

Well I think your English is very good!

Tho I have just realised that I've mixed up my threads and this isn't the one re immigrants speaking English is it?

It's the one about illegal immigrants being here. And I don't think Amiee is illegal!!

Ooops!

Mod: feel free to whisk these posts to a more appropriate thread if you want to :)

no there were two threads on about it - one wasnt about illegal immigrants this one is but it has shifted to this speaking english thing the other one was on about

we were talking on the other one before then you posted on this one and i saw it and replied

lol dont get yourself confused

amiee xx

STOP PRESS:


five major European countries have agreed to organise joint flights to deport illegal immigrants from the EU.

Interior ministers for the UK, France, Italy, Spain and Germany - known as the Group of Five - announced the plan at talks in France ahead of the G8 summit.

Ministers hope pooling resources will help Europe beat illegal immigration.

France's Nicolas Sarkozy told Europe 1 radio that joint naval operations would take place in the Mediterranean to deter people-trafficking from Africa.

Italy, which would carry out the naval surveillance with France and Spain, says rising illegal immigration from North Africa is controlled by organised criminal gangs.

Immigration 'ceiling'

Joint French and Spanish naval operations could also take place in the Atlantic to curb drug trafficking.

Mr Sarkozy said the proposal to operate joint repatriation flights had been put forward by Spanish Interior Minister Jose Antonio Alonso.

The aircraft would tour the five nations to pick up illegal immigrants of the same nationality, then return them to their country of origin.

Such flights could begin within days, Mr Sarkozy said.

The French minister said he had proposed a "ceiling" on the number of immigrants allowed into the G5 nations each year.

"Immigration is not a problem on one condition - that it is controlled," he said.

Mr Sarkozy said the five ministers had also agreed to harmonise terms to ensure that immigrants who are granted permission to stay are allowed to bring their families to join them.

He suggested inviting Poland to join the group of key European nations, in recognition of the enlarged EU of 25 member states.

The G5 was set up in 2003 and is meeting for the eighth time.

from the bbc.co.uk

oh and I for one would be very happy to swap every fascist we have for an illegal immigrant.

Originally posted by robbie
oh and I for one would be very happy to swap every fascist we have for an illegal immigrant.


And I would love to get rid of every stupid leftie who dont have a clue what the world is all about.:thumbsup:

What, so you like facists do you?

Mod. Note

OK. The usual reminder.

This thread is about illegal immigrant figures in the UK. Please keep to that subject.

Please don't let it get personal.

Thanks,

Joe

Originally posted by royjames
And I would love to get rid of every (stupid) leftie

You'll have to try very hard in Sheffield, being the city it is - Roy, why don't you move to another part of England? - Gravesend, Bradford or Leicester - you'll like them all.

Alex - :)

Note: I bracketed your "stupid" comment, as being left doesn't necessarily mean you’re stupid – “leftie” and “stupid" aren't synonymous.