Do you have any music on a pc or mp3 player that you don't own the rights too, that would included downloaded, copied from a friend, copied of a friends cd, etc...

A friend (cough) does not download "legal" music but has been known to download "illegal" bootleg albums.
Does illegally downloading illegal music somehow make it legal ? :confused:

Originally posted by Cols
A friend (cough) does not download "legal" music but has been known to download "illegal" bootleg albums.
Does illegally downloading illegal music somehow make it legal ? :confused:

Nope, an artist and his/her/their producers/directors/distributers etc own the rights to every concert they do, recording their concert is illegal, infact not only does it break copyright but it also probably breeches the terms and conditions on your ticket.

And obviously if the source is the original recording that the artist made then if its definitly illegal...

I do own some illegal music... but most of the stuff I haven't legally bought is stuff I either cant get a hold of without trouble in this country, or stuff that is £15 a CD because it's rare or not distributed here...

one prime example is a band I love called Hammerfall, fantastic band, but their albums are damn expensive for a band over 10yrs old and they also dont tour here... it sucks, but life goes on :(

I have a question is it ok to buy second hand cd's, because the royalties don't go to the artist and producers and distributers.

is it ok to copy a cd you have taken out of the library?

I have downloaded songs from the net like James Blunt then sent for it from play.com
:suspect: shoot me i don't care ;)

About 4-5 years ago when the original Napster started I downloaded the odd song, but I stopped pretty quickly when I realised it was just like going in to a shop and stealing! Funny how only a small percentage of people are happy to do that but loads of people download music illegally off the net. So it isn't morals that stop people it is the fear of been caught! ;)

the thing is, most people do the odd track...

the people that download a lot off the net illegally are also usually the same people with a CD collection you'd drool at... people like me who buy a lot of real CD's but download a lot too to listen to new bands first...

if you buy a CD and dont like it, you cant take it back, if you download an album and dont like it you just delete it... you've saved yourself money and the ozone from wasting more oil to create the plastic :P

Is it OK to download a track if you already have it on CD? I've done that a (cough) couple of times. It proved quicker and easier than ripping a cd.

Originally posted by xafier
the thing is, most people do the odd track...

the people that download a lot off the net illegally are also usually the same people with a CD collection you'd drool at... people like me who buy a lot of real CD's but download a lot too to listen to new bands first...

if you buy a CD and dont like it, you cant take it back, if you download an album and dont like it you just delete it... you've saved yourself money and the ozone from wasting more oil to create the plastic :P

You can take it back if it is the "wrong one".

No, all of my CDs are either bought-from-the-shop or a direct CD-->CDR from someone's disc that they paid for.

:)

Originally posted by amhudson119
You can take it back if it is the "wrong one".

No, all of my CDs are either bought-from-the-shop or a direct CD-->CDR from someone's disc that they paid for.

:)

copying friends CD's is illegal though mate :P

and yeah, if its "the wrong one" but thats too much faffing about, download an album in 10mins, listen to it... like it then order it off tinternet, dont like it then delete it... simple!

Originally posted by Jon
I have a question is it ok to buy second hand cd's, because the royalties don't go to the artist and producers and distributers.

is it ok to copy a cd you have taken out of the library?

I have downloaded songs from the net like James Blunt then sent for it from play.com
:suspect: shoot me i don't care ;)

it is okay to resell a cd, you are selling on the license that you own.
it's not okay to copy a cd that you borrowed from the library, you don't own a license to that music once you return the disc.

March - is it really the same as stealing from a shop?

Originally posted by march
About 4-5 years ago when the original Napster started I downloaded the odd song, but I stopped pretty quickly when I realised it was just like going in to a shop and stealing! Funny how only a small percentage of people are happy to do that but loads of people download music illegally off the net. So it isn't morals that stop people it is the fear of been caught! ;)


This coming from the same person who would have no qualms with leeching off someone elses internet connection!!

People have been recording films of TV, taping the radio and copying anything that can be copied since the machines to copy stuff were invented.

The problem now is the scale of it, I read in ther paper that a third of all CD's sold are fakes/copies.

I think that if they reduced the cost of stuff people would be less likely to get hold of a copy.

Originally posted by nick2
I think that if they reduced the cost of stuff people would be less likely to get hold of a copy.

Of course, look how many people buy tons of DVD's now they arent £25 a pop! DVD's are cheaper than CD's now or the same... I can produce about 50 CD's for the cost of an album :? how do they figure their costs?

surely they can make a CD including everything for about 50p with the amount of bulk they do it in? if they flogged all CD's for £5 and doubles for say £7.50 they'd sell a lot more than £12 and £18!

Originally posted by t020
This coming from the same person who would have no qualms with leeching off someone elses internet connection!!


Apologise for that please! If you need to go and read the thread please do so to see why. We were debating the legality of it I never said I did it. Don't make me post my internet forum libel case again! You can also delete the original post after making an apology.

Originally posted by Cyclone

March - is it really the same as stealing from a shop?


Don't really know, that is just how I saw it. I guess any punishment would be greater if you actually stole it from a shop. Only ever heard of fines for people downloading music.

Originally posted by xafier
surely they can make a CD including everything for about 50p with the amount of bulk they do it in? if they flogged all CD's for £5 and doubles for say £7.50 they'd sell a lot more than £12 and £18!


Yes it probably does cost about 2p a CD, but then who pays for the artists wages, the wages involved in making the cd, the producers wages, the record companys cut. It all adds up.

Not advocating that they should charge so much, jusy saying it isn' as simple as you made out.

Originally posted by march
Apologise for that please! If you need to go and read the thread please do so to see why. We were debating the legality of it I never said I did it. Don't make me post my internet forum libel case again! You can also delete the original post after making an apology.



:lol:

well wouldnt it be better to sell 1,000,000 albums at £5 than 100,000 at £12?

to be honest I'm really not sure why CD's have never come down in price... surely the cost to produce them has dropped drastically since their first use way back when?

Originally posted by Skatiechik
:lol:


I hope you are laughing with me and not at me! :D

In the past I have bought new single CD albums for £17, and if I found it to be less than astounding at that price I felt extremely stupid and taken advantage of.
but nowadays when it is possible to buy current ones for less than £10 from Tesco, at that price it's much less effort and time and you finish up with a nicer thing to own. I try not to leave anything in my car which looks nickable and often make compilations or back ups for leaving/listening to in the car and I think I should have every right to do that.

I have fiddled with Kazaa and other file sharing programmes in the past but so many of the downloads are corrupt, or not what they say, or even virus or worm attached that I don't use them at all at the moment because I don't want any of my PCs compromising. Although if I feel the need, I may set up a download PC just for downloading in future. Altholugh I have much better/exciting things to do with my time at the moment.

Originally posted by march
Don't really know, that is just how I saw it. I guess any punishment would be greater if you actually stole it from a shop. Only ever heard of fines for people downloading music.

what i was getting at is that if you take a mars bar from a news agent then the mars bar is gone and the newsagent is one mars bar out of pocket.
If you download a music track, no one has actually paid for it in the first place, so no one is out of pocket. What has been lost is the potential revenue that would have been generated if you'd bought the music.
Of course most people that download would claim that they wouldn't actually pay for the music, so there is no lost revenue.

u think im stupid enough to tell you? lol

maybe the guy who started this poll is a police snitch whos gonna get evryone banged up in jail for downloading illegal music!

how dare you! :o

Originally posted by Ditz
u think im stupid enough to tell you? lol

maybe the guy who started this poll is a police snitch whos gonna get evryone banged up in jail for downloading illegal music!

how dare you! :o

yers, because my magic powers will show me how you voted. Not.

and my 4000+ posts over the last 18 months were all just a ruse to get me into your confidence before springing this dastedly trap.

Quite simply, Yes.

And I'm not about to stop ;)

Originally posted by march
Apologise for that please! If you need to go and read the thread please do so to see why. We were debating the legality of it I never said I did it. Don't make me post my internet forum libel case again! You can also delete the original post after making an apology.

Read my post again - I didn't say you DID leech people's connections, I said you'd have no qualms about doing so. That was the implication you gave by continually defending and justifying bandwidth theft. IMO, bandwidth theft is worse than MP3 downloading.

I'm not so sure that reducing the price of CDs to a really low price would always make that much difference. There are always those artists where the fans will buy anything they release whatever the price, and who are unlikely to attract casual listeners even if the CDs are at low prices. Though of course, I wouldn't complain. :)

I'm too scared to rip off tracks from t'internet, but I'm not bothered by borrowing CDs and ripping stuff, it's just like home taping. I reckon people do it because the legal downloading can actually be a real rip off. If you buy a CD for £10 you can rip from it as much as you like, but if you download the same in MP3 format you can only use it so many times, and in many cases, files are corrupt or users find they can't use them on their particular type of MP3 player.

Still, with a CD there's always the slight, though diminished, frisson you used to get from going into record shops, looking at the album covers and enjoying them as objects. Like when you used to come back from dinner at school with a record bag and everyone would go "ooh, what have you bought" :)

Cyclone makes an important point, one thing that winds me up is when people talk about downloading movies or music as "stealing". It isn't - it's copyright infringement! That's not to say it's legal of course :) You aren't depriving them of any actual money by doing it, but I'm also less than totally convinced with the argument that sometimes it increases sales by introducing people to music they wouldn't have actually heard. That may sometimes be true, but I know many people who never pay for any music and have no intention of doing so.

Personally, I have downloaded a reasonable amount but I also try to make a point of buying them when I can. I'm not a fan of the prices charged by the music business, but I recognise that if nobody paid for their products then they wouldn't exist! (and of course you have to overcharge on some artists to speculate on others who will often make a loss for the labels)

Another very good point made was on the prices of dvds.. I often find myself making an impulse purchase of a movie when it's say £8.99, but I have to think hard about paying closer to £15 for a music cd.

If you want to support a band without supporting the label as such, go see them live!

Originally posted by rich951
Cyclone makes an important point, one thing that winds me up is when people talk about downloading movies or music as "stealing". It isn't - it's copyright infringement! That's not to say it's legal of course :) You aren't depriving them of any actual money by doing it,


That's rather strange logic :confused:

If you download a pirated music music CD or DVD film rather than buy it in a shop you're surely depriving someone along the line of their expected income from that CD/DVD; performers, production company....retailer, - yet you don't see it as theft ??

This LINK (http://www2.vnunet.com/News/1146800) suggests that even copying a music CD for personal use is now a criminal offence :o

Originally posted by Jon
I have a question is it ok to buy second hand cd's, because the royalties don't go to the artist and producers and distributers.



ive thought about the exact same thing for years, decades even, ive always bought most of my music from second hand shops over the past 20 years, so i have been killing the music industry singlehandedly legally .................right ossifers lock me up and throw away the key

Originally posted by Greybeard
That's rather strange logic :confused:

If you download a pirated music music CD or DVD film rather than buy it in a shop you're surely depriving someone along the line of their expected income from that CD/DVD; performers, production company....retailer, - yet you don't see it as theft ??

This LINK (http://www2.vnunet.com/News/1146800) suggests that even copying a music CD for personal use is now a criminal offence :o

yes but just because you downloaded an album or movie DOESNT mean you WOULD HAVE bought it??

i dont think even bill gates could buy every movie or album thats released every week .........theres millions

Originally posted by Greybeard
That's rather strange logic :confused:

If you download a pirated music music CD or DVD film rather than buy it in a shop you're surely depriving someone along the line of their expected income from that CD/DVD; performers, production company....retailer, - yet you don't see it as theft ??

This LINK (http://www2.vnunet.com/News/1146800) suggests that even copying a music CD for personal use is now a criminal offence :o
No it's not theft - theft is the "disappropriation of property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it" (I think :)) You might have cost them potential revenue, but that's to be proven - you certainly haven't cost them the money it took to produce, distribute and stock a compact disc. I didn't say I agreed with copying music, but to call it stealing is somewhat histrionic in my book - and is similar to using the rather emotive language of "piracy". There was actually some research recently saying that people bought more music when they illegally sampled it first, but I have my doubts as the validity of it! (in the same way I don't automatically believe any research produced by the RIAA/MPAA)

On the other subject, strictly you've never been allowed to make copies of music you own in this country - we've never had a "fair rights" law. So in theory, you're not allowed to put a cd onto your ipod or minidisc player, or make a copy for the car. There was some EU law in the pipeline which might alter this, but I have no idea what has happened to it :)

Originally posted by rich951
On the other subject, strictly you've never been allowed to make copies of music you own in this country - we've never had a "fair rights" law. So in theory, you're not allowed to put a cd onto your ipod or minidisc player, or make a copy for the car. There was some EU law in the pipeline which might alter this, but I have no idea what has happened to it :)

so in that case then any person over about 8 is a criminal :? I'm pretty sure every single one of us has either copied from the radio to tape, recorded LP's or CD's to tape... recorded CD's onto their mp3 players...

were all criminals :clap: lets party :clap:

Originally posted by xafier
so in that case then any person over about 8 is a criminal :? I'm pretty sure every single one of us has either copied from the radio to tape, recorded LP's or CD's to tape... recorded CD's onto their mp3 players...

were all criminals :clap: lets party :clap:
Don't forget that it's also only legal to record off the tv for time-shifting purposes, so if you don't erase it within a certain length of time you're nicked son! I assume the same goes for the radio..

wonder whether the law legally states the recording media as VHS though or recording in general? cus I own a standalone DVD writer :hihi:

Originally posted by rich951
No it's not theft - theft is the "disappropriation of property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it" (I think :)) You might have cost them potential revenue, but that's to be proven - you certainly haven't cost them the money it took to produce, distribute and stock a compact disc.

I thought you might come back with that kind of argument :)

All I can suggest is that you ask artists, writers, musicians etc., who employ their talents to earn a living, how they would define it.

theyd define it as .......................#a yellow submarine a yellow submarine

errrrrrrrm

used to (although in my partial defense a lot of the stuff was not available over here) but since moving to the Home Office I decided it would be a good idea to stop.

Originally posted by robbie
used to (although in my partial defense a lot of the stuff was not available over here) but since moving to the Home Office I decided it would be a good idea to stop.

you've got to be joking right? :? I think there are more pot heads and illegal dodgy people in the home office than anywhere else in the country :hihi:

that is quite true.

but imagine being busted by the home office for illegal downloading. I'd never live it down.

Originally posted by Greybeard
I thought you might come back with that kind of argument :)

All I can suggest is that you ask artists, writers, musicians etc., who employ their talents to earn a living, how they would define it.

it really doesn't matter how they define it or what they call it.

the fact is that downloading a piece of music you would not have bought does not cost them anything, nor does it cause them to loose revenue.

Originally posted by Cyclone

the fact is that downloading a piece of music you would not have bought does not cost them anything, nor does it cause them to loose revenue.

This doesn't square with the excuse so often used by those who download music that they aren't prepared to pay £15 for a CD, but if it were priced at £5 they would have bought it.

Lots of shoplifters pinch stuff they wouldn't in fact buy even though they could easily afford it...so that's OK then ??

Originally posted by Greybeard
This doesn't square with the excuse so often used by those who download music that they aren't prepared to pay £15 for a CD, but if it were priced at £5 they would have bought it.

Lots of shoplifters pinch stuff they wouldn't in fact buy even though they could easily afford it...so that's OK then ??

if you're going to play stupid I won't even bother discussing this with you.

If you can't see the difference between a copy (ie nothing physically taken) and a theft (ie a physical object removed) then either being deliberately obtuse or just plain stupid.

Originally posted by Cyclone
if you're going to play stupid I won't even bother discussing this with you.

If you can't see the difference between a copy (ie nothing physically taken) and a theft (ie a physical object removed) then either being deliberately obtuse or just plain stupid.


Fine...there's little reward in a discussion where one one party believes the other's POV is stupid, but it does seem to be a frequent fall-back position with you :D

Stupid or not I'm confident that I shall not be receiving a large buff envelope from the BPI threatening a hefty fine or imprisonment.

Originally posted by Greybeard
Fine...there's little reward in a discussion where one one party believes the other's POV is stupid, but it does seem to be a frequent fall-back position with you :D

Stupid or not I'm confident that I shall not be receiving a large buff envelope from the BPI threatening a hefty fine or imprisonment.

I didn't say that your POV was stupid, I said that you were playing stupid.

How can the theft of a physical object be compared to an act of piracy.
If I were to (for example) download or copy some music (from the radio maybe), no one has lost any money, no one can count there stock of music and go "oh, someone's taken a tune and not paid for it". That's a fairly clear cut difference between theft and piracy.
The only time there would be a loss of revenue for the record company would be if I'd decided to buy the album or single, and downloaded it instead. Then they could legitimately say that they'd missed out on my revenue.
Since I hardly ever bought cd's in the first place, I can safely say that if I copyed cd's from friends I would not have deprived the music industry of any revenue.

Interestingly, when you look at the revenue figures for the music industry, the decline in revenue (which they blame on file sharing) is almost exactly in line with the decline in the number of albums and singles released, that's a huge coincidence that they seem happy to ignore...

Originally posted by Greybeard
This doesn't square with the excuse so often used by those who download music that they aren't prepared to pay £15 for a CD, but if it were priced at £5 they would have bought it.



i dont use that arguement ................i always buy the few singles, albums, dvds i really want, tbh theres less and less i really really love these days.
The last proper new release album i bought was the forever faithless album

go to a shop, Buy what you want, bang it on MP3 and Ipod, sell it on ebay for not much less than you paid for it.......

I'm sure that this is legal, and I haven't had one that hasn't sold yet !!

Originally posted by littleboo
go to a shop, Buy what you want, bang it on MP3 and Ipod, sell it on ebay for not much less than you paid for it.......

I'm sure that this is legal, and I haven't had one that hasn't sold yet !!

Nope, its illegal... the moment you sell the CD you dont hold the rights for the song and thus cant legally have the MP3's

how about If I gave it away or it was stolen???

Originally posted by littleboo
how about If I gave it away or it was stolen???

if its not in your possession then you dont have its rights... period, if its stolen then you buy it again or delete it... technically

Originally posted by xafier
if its not in your possession then you dont have its rights... period, if its stolen then you buy it again or delete it... technically

not quite true. If you destroyed the original cd, as you had purchased the right to the music you would still legally own that right, although proving it might be more difficult afterwards.

Of course if you sell on the music, you are selling the rights to listen to it as well. If however the physical cd is stolen, technically it's the theif who has no right to listen to the cd (as well as no right to it physically).

would you?? anyway, I think that the key is Don't download. at the end of the day I'm a law abiding citizen in every other way.......I can't see the local music police pay a visit to Mrs average,middle aged mum of two. who works in a bank, Can you?????

Originally posted by littleboo
would you?? anyway, I think that the key is Don't download. at the end of the day I'm a law abiding citizen in every other way.......I can't see the local music police pay a visit to Mrs average,middle aged mum of two. who works in a bank, Can you?????

would you what?

And no, the police are not likely to be interested as breach of copyright is a civil not criminal matter.

well that's that settled then.

would you delete it?

Originally posted by littleboo
well that's that settled then.

would you delete it?

if I sold the cd? I just wouldn't sell the cd in the first place. All my cd's are also on all 3 of my pc's in mp3 format, but I'm not planning to sell the originals.

Originally posted by Cyclone
if I sold the cd? I just wouldn't sell the cd in the first place. All my cd's are also on all 3 of my pc's in mp3 format, but I'm not planning to sell the originals.

y'know, you could make things easier and just set up a little file server with them all on ;)

personally I wouldn't ever sell a CD, why would you ever sell a CD unless it was utter crap? :?

Originally posted by xafier
y'know, you could make things easier and just set up a little file server with them all on ;)

personally I wouldn't ever sell a CD, why would you ever sell a CD unless it was utter crap? :?

funny that, I have a master copy, a mounted share of that folder (set to syncronise to allow offline use, ie if the main pc goes down) and a copy on my laptop which obviously needs to work when it's not connected to the home network.

Originally posted by Greybeard
This doesn't square with the excuse so often used by those who download music that they aren't prepared to pay £15 for a CD, but if it were priced at £5 they would have bought it.

Lots of shoplifters pinch stuff they wouldn't in fact buy even though they could easily afford it...so that's OK then ??

disagree. I buy a lot of albums. I either buy then of amazon marketplace or cdwow. Its is at least half the price of Virgin.

my argument would be this.

I f I could hear 9with no way of downloading) a full album of a band for a limited period and I liked it I would buy it.

all you get now is a couple of songs or 30 sec samples.

from illegally downloading I have spent at least 200 quid since January buying other/new albums. Plus I will promote them to death.