Those of you who believe in reincarnation, karma etc might find the following quite interesting:

http://www.michaelteachings.com/soul_ages.html

I reckon that I'm an 'Old soul', so hopefully won't need too many trips back to learn lessons, repay karma and generally keep knackering myself out in the process...

Are you a merry old soul?

If so, you have already had a song written about you and are of royal lineage

Seriously though, what possible reasons can you have for believing in 'souls' in the first place?

And how would you define the idea of 'soul'?

I sold my soul to the devil at a lonely crossroads down in Mississippi many years ago in exchange for becoming a genius guitar player like Robert Johnson or Ry Cooder.

I ended up playing like Ralph Macchio instead.

I'm thinking of asking for my money back!

Originally posted by LordChaverly
... how would you define the idea of 'soul'?

soul n.

1. The animating and vital principle in humans, credited with the faculties of thought, action, and emotion and often conceived as an immaterial entity.

2. The spiritual nature of humans, regarded as immortal, separable from the body at death, and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state.

3. The disembodied spirit of a dead human.

4. A human: “the homes of some nine hundred souls” (Garrison Keillor).

5. The central or integral part; the vital core: “It saddens me that this network... may lose its soul, which is after all the quest for news” (Marvin Kalb).

6. A person considered as the perfect embodiment of an intangible quality; a personification: I am the very soul of discretion.

7. A person's emotional or moral nature: “An actor is... often a soul which wishes to reveal itself to the world but dare not” (Alec Guinness).

8. A sense of ethnic pride among Black people and especially African Americans, expressed in areas such as language, social customs, religion, and music.

9. A strong, deeply felt emotion conveyed by a speaker, a performer, or an artist.

10. Soul music.

Originally posted by mojoworking
I sold my soul to the devil at a lonely crossroads down in Mississippi many years ago in exchange for becoming a genius guitar player like Robert Johnson or Ry Cooder.

I ended up playing like Ralph Macchio instead.

I'm thinking of asking for my money back! :hihi:

21 grams lighter like me :hihi:

anyone believe they have been here before. do you feel that you are now paying for mistakes from a previous life do you sometimes meet someone you just dont like from the first meeting even though you dont know them and they seem ok or have you met someone you feel you have known them a long time after just meeting them.have you been places and feel you have been there before but cant rememeber when or know you have never been there but it looks familier..would love to hear your comments.

On miserable weekdays like today (cold, grey, wet and cloudy) I sometimes feel I'm in a Groundhog Day loop...reliving the same day over and over and over again :suspect:

Same time tomorrow eh :)

Check out the following thread...

http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46991

Yup, for sure, and am still trying to establish who/what I was, not that it occupies my mind on a daily basis, nor does it keep me awake at night. I feel that I am learning and have learned lessons from previous lives and sometimes am able to spout knowledge with no idea where I learned it. The key for me is to be aware and open to it at all times.

I seriously am a believer in this and would like to find out my past life...

As when i was a child (believe this or not its up to you) my Mum started telling me off... out of the blue i told her not to shout at me as i was her Mother and i remember when she was a Child and that i remembered the days that i would tell her off...

My Mum's Mum died when she was just 3 years old so you can imagine this knocked her for six and generally spooked her... I really dont know if was me being a Child or if i were speaking the truth... :?

I do however have a picture in my head of myself walking a very old fashioned pram round like a green park area... kinda like a block with a river/pond with ducks... its so clear in my mind... If only i could draw... its so annoying...

Who can get you to your past life? any suggestions?

Been here before? Probably not, but I can understand why many people believe that they have.

I remember one dream that I had when I was a teenager that was so realistic I can't begin to explain just how much it freaked me out.

I'd arrived at what seemed to be an institution or possibly a workhouse with big iron gates, set immediately adjacent to a seriously brooding stretch of moorland. I was terrified, and was aware that I was a child in the dream, and that I'd somehow been "abandoned" and made to come here - not in a dreamy freudian way, but in a very realistic sense of having recently lost my immediate family.

I was led down some stone steps and turned right into a medium-sized very dark room filled with beds, and closer to me, a large sink. There were a handful of people that I could see stood around as I entered, all of whom looked at me. I can remember the look of resigned hopelessness in their faces, and recognised a family friend in the group, at which point I woke up.

Fairly uneventful I know, but the realism far exceded anything I've ever experienced in a dream before or since, and everything in the dream seemed to click, and be correct, and familiar. The layout of the building, the faces, the lighting, everything just seemed non-dreamlike and as you'd expect to see them in real life.

Blinkin'odd, if nothing else, and it scared ten shades of crap out of me at the time.

Oh man......don't say it's all to do again

Do I believe I've been here before? No. Nor I do think I'll be coming back again sometime in the future. This one life is sufficient for me. Don't wish to be greedy.

ant

i loved your dream and i would say there was some reason why
you had this dream.the thing that stood out was that you saw a family friend do you mind me asking if the friend was alive when you had this dream and is he/she still alive.you could have been having a vision of a past life and seeing your friend who should not have been there woke you up this friend in your dream could also be connected to a past life with you. you may have last met in a previous life at a work house. also the dream could have been connected to something that was going on in your life at that time which could be more so if you have not had the same dream again.

I watched the programe on this with Phillip scoffield (soz if spelt wrong) and it was said on there that one actress hadnt actually been here before... it was all a dream that she'd had in the past...

Very strange... I guess it leaves the question open...

Have we/you really been here before... or is it all in our dreams :?

thanks for your comments i hope some more come in . especially the believers. im not sure if i do believe anymore.i feel more that things you feel are clarvoyant or spiritualist tendencies of people that have deceased which i strongly believe more to.

angel05

i do feel that you could once have been your grandmother in a previous life do you look like her or you could have some clairvoyant possibilities which may come to you possibly from your grandmother have you had anything like this since about anything else.

past lifes or spiritual tendencies come more to children than to adults think of a time in history that appeals to you more than any other time what fascinated you when you were younger in games you played these can be links to the past. things you saw or felt as children were sometimes brushed to one side or told you were dreaming

i always believed in reincarnation and that i was accused of being a witch and that i died by hanging as in this life i hate anything around my neck. now i dont go with that theory as much as that i believe this person was probably an ancestor of mine.i went to a spiritualist church a few years ago as i dabbled in astrology and tarot and trying to contact the spirit world myself. it was very interesting i didnt get any messages for myself but a lady there who was a spiritualist herself i described her road where she lived and an old friend that she had grown up with and i had never seen this woman before or where she lived which from that tend to make me believe more that its spiritualism that we feel and not past lifes that come to us.but i still keep an open mind that we may have been here before and would like to believe that we come back again.

Originally posted by summer1955
angel05

i do feel that you could once have been your grandmother in a previous life do you look like her or you could have some clairvoyant possibilities which may come to you possibly from your grandmother have you had anything like this since about anything else.

past lifes or spiritual tendencies come more to children than to adults think of a time in history that appeals to you more than any other time what fascinated you when you were younger in games you played these can be links to the past. things you saw or felt as children were sometimes brushed to one side or told you were dreaming

I've posted things on the Forum before about my strange experiences... I've been told that i may have a slight gift... what it is i am totally unware... I've been advised to look into it... but at the moment i feel to nervous... it was suggested that i will know when the time is right for me explore further... (my Father was a Palm reader back in his day)

As to what you have said about Children remembering things i believe this to be true... as a young mind is very switched on i feel... Kids arnt silly although they may act it at times lol...

I would definitely like to find out more... let the truth be known i say...

People may think i'm strange or making it up... That doesnt bother me as i know what i feel and think... People are entitled to there own opinions on matters/situations like these... I for one wouldnt ram it down anyones throat making them believe... everybodies thoughts and opinions are different... If they weren't life would be boring lol

Its just de ja vou(sp??? lol) it happens when the "whats happening now" part of your brain gets close and confused with the "memory" part of your brain.....

I do sometimes wonder whether I had a past life.. Especially at times when I'm feeling anxious or depressed... But that's been quite often lately for reasons I'd rather not go into as it's personal.

do you mind me asking if the friend was alive when you had this dream and is he/she still alive.you could have been having a vision of a past life and seeing your friend who should not have been there woke you up this friend in your dream could also be connected to a past life with you. you may have last met in a previous life at a work house. also the dream could have been connected to something that was going on in your life at that time which could be more so if you have not had the same dream again.

It was a very familiar face that came to greet me, and I knew it was a family friend, but as soon as I woke up, I realised that it just wasn't a face I know now.

Interestingly, thoughts kept popping into my head for the next few minutes about the friend and the building itself - snipets of memories seemed to be springing back to me.

Odd. But then life is, ain't it?

Don't believe in life after death or reincarnation,

but there is i suppose a possibility that memories like genes, could be passed on up to the point of birth

hence the feeling of have i been here before.

Originally posted by Scat
Check out the following thread...

http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46991

Threads merged - thanks for the link. Personally I feel like I've been here a few times before :P

We have all been here before, whether we wish to accept it or not. The point is - who is who, when, where, and why?

There is a belief that we are reborn again and again to actively experience everything that everyone else experiences, making exactly the same choices as them - otherwise we would not be able to experience what they did as they did. Which would mean that many of us have been Tony Blair and done exactly as he is doing. Imagine if we could tap into those memories of what has yet to be on account of the fact we have done it all before.

Confused? You should try looking at quantum theory and the fact that everything that has happened is happening and will happen all at the same time, and the only difference between then and now is the point of awareness. It also suggests that for every possability there is an alternate reality which is also taking place simultaneously with this one so we are all everyone who has been, is and will be.

Scary thought???

Dragon

<sings>
Have fun when you're alive,
You won't get nothing when you die
Have a good time all the time
Because you won't get nothing when you die
</sings>

My sole is as old as my shoe, and no older.

Pretty frivolous reply to a pertinent question me thinks.

Does that mean that 1) there are people who have no thoughts about the possabilities of having lived previous lifes and (2) there are people mistaken by the belief that there can be only good times without the bad? Who would want to live in utopia where we only enjoy what there is to enjoy, and how would our offspring - if we had any - compare good times to anything?

The good and the bad go hand in hand - both providing us with lessons of life so we can perhaps better ourselves or those around us. I hope that by the mistakes I have made my children have learnt some good lessons and can avoid making those same mistakes.

Dragon

Originally posted by Dragon
It also suggests that for every possability there is an alternate reality which is also taking place simultaneously with this one so we are all everyone who has been, is and will be.

Scary thought???

Dragon

I tend to believe there are an infinite number of alternate realities, where the consequences of every possible choice are played out.

But who knows?

StarSparkle

Originally posted by Dragon
We have all been here before, whether we wish to accept it or not.

What is your evidence for this nonsensical assertion?

Originally posted by Dragon


There is a belief that we are reborn again and again to actively experience everything that everyone else experiences, making exactly the same choices as them - otherwise we would not be able to experience what they did as they did. Which would mean that many of us have been Tony Blair and done exactly as he is doing. Imagine if we could tap into those memories of what has yet to be on account of the fact we have done it all before.

What an interesting belief. I have to confess that I've not come across this notion before. I can't work out whether I've been Tony Blair yet, or indeed if Tony Blair has yet been me. Would it be helpful if we could collect a ticket and form an orderly queue for this experience, like we do at the deli counter?
Originally posted by Dragon

Confused? You should try looking at quantum theory and the fact that everything that has happened is happening and will happen all at the same time, and the only difference between then and now is the point of awareness. It also suggests that for every possability there is an alternate reality which is also taking place simultaneously with this one so we are all everyone who has been, is and will be.

Scary thought???

Dragon

Scary thought? Not really, as I was having an alternative reality moment which was taking place simultaneously, and the only difference between then and now was my point of awareness. Now, if you'll forgive me, I need to make an urgent appointment with a good psychiatrist. Let me know if you want the number.

Originally posted by redrobbo
Scary thought? Not really, as I was having an alternative reality moment which was taking place simultaneously, and the only difference between then and now was my point of awareness. Now, if you'll forgive me, I need to make an urgent appointment with a good psychiatrist. Let me know if you want the number.

You're fully entitled to your own beliefs, of course, Redrobbo - but that doesn't give you the right to belittle what others believe.

I thought better of you.

StarSparkle

Originally posted by Dragon
Pretty frivolous reply to a pertinent question me thinks.
I presume this is in response to my post.

Actually, it was a light-hearted response to what is a pertinent, though misguided question, and also if you look carefully you will see that I was just singing to lighten the mood - the song I was singing was Look! No Strings! (http://www.houseoflyrics.com/d/artists/1397/song/59434) by Chumbawamba. Here's a little more for your enjoyment:

<sings>
High above the streets and houses
Mrs. Meta Battle,
With one hand on the Valium and one hand on the bottle
Somewhere over Indiana, eight miles high
Meta Battle sees the good Lord wandering 'cross the sky
</sings>

Originally posted by Dragon
Does that mean that 1) there are people who have no thoughts about the possabilities of having lived previous lifes
Absolutely not! I would never deny that people have thoughts about the possibilties of having lived past lives. However, all this proves is that people have thoughts about the possibilities of having lived past lives. People have also, at various times in history, had thoughts about the universe being carried on the back of a turtle, and about the Earth being a big disc that, if you sail too far, you'll fall off the edge of. The song I quoted above is also based upon a true story - true inasmuch as Meta Battle claims to have seen Christ flying above the skies of Indiana. Merely thinking something does not make it so.

As for whether we need to be happy all the time - sorry, you're right. I'll go sit in the corner and be miserable for a while now. I agree that nobody can be happy all the time (unless, possibly, with the help of continuous electrical stimulation to certain parts of the brain), but that doesn't make it a bad thing to aim for. If you reach for the stars, you may not get them, but you won't come up with a handful of mud either.

Regarding your statement that "we have all been here before", I would be very interested to hear your proof for this and the methodology by which you have tested it. One of my lecturers at University spent thirty years trying, with a very open mind, to find evidence for people having lived past lives, and she eventually gave up concluding that such a thing was not possible.

Originally posted by DanSumption
Regarding your statement that "we have all been here before", I would be very interested to hear your proof for this and the methodology by which you have tested it. One of my lecturers at University spent thirty years trying, with a very open mind, to find evidence for people having lived past lives, and she eventually gave up concluding that such a thing was not possible.

Science may be described as the art of systematic oversimplification (Sir Karl Popper - The Logic of Scientific Discovery)

And?

Science may also be described as the only reliable method we have for divining truth about the world around us.

None of which tells us why I should believe we had, to quote Jah Wobble, past lives in warmer climates.

And ... I think it is incredibly arrogant of the human race to believe that we can find the answer to everything via scientific methods. What is your 'open minded' friend working on now? To prove/disprove that God exists? If she concludes that it is simply not possible, then she's gonna offend an awful lot of people...

How can we find anything via other methods? Science may be imperfect, but it's all we have. And quoting Karl Popper in an attempt to discredit science is like me quoting Jesus in an attempt to discredit Christianity (which, admittedly, I do do, but not by using quotes where he was clearly correct).

Introspection is all very well, but all it can tell us is what's going on inside our mind, it says nothing about the rest of the world.

This is what my open-minded friend is working on now (http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/). You may have seen her, or more likely her partner Adam Hart-Davis, on TV from time-to-time.

Originally posted by StarSparkle
You're fully entitled to your own beliefs, of course, Redrobbo - but that doesn't give you the right to belittle what others believe.

I thought better of you.

StarSparkle

I have reconsidered my post in the light of your comment StarSparkle.

I stand corrected and chastened. Cheap shot on my part. My apologies to Dragon.

Red

Originally posted by redrobbo
I stand corrected and chastened. Cheap shot on my part. My apologies to Dragon.
Oh, come on RedRobbo. Don't give in to intellectual relativism. You have every right to mock other peoples' beliefs if they are groundless.

No problems with you doubting anything and everything Dan. So - science is great for apparently proving this is how this happens, bu rarely can it prove why.

How does science prove a bumble bee can fly? By proving that it cannot - it lacks the aerodynamics; the wingsize; the body muscle; and so on - and yet it does fly doesn't it? Just a silly example.

So - Dan - are we to assume that you believe science can explain everything? You need to enlighten scientists of this.

There are so many things that can appear to be explained but when it boils right down to it - only your faith supports science.
Tis the old syndrome - what is zero divided by 19?

Dragon

Dragon,

You're confusing me. Perhaps that is your intention.

I don't remember saying that science can prove everything (in fact it can't prove anything, it can only disprove), but that's beside the point. You made the assertion that "We have all been here before, whether we wish to accept it or not" - I am genuinely interested to hear how you know this to be the case. If you've managed to "prove" this using a method other than the scientific method, I'd love to know about it. And if you've intuited it using the same method that has given us entire pantheons of gods, a flat earth and universes carried by a variety of different types of animal, I'd like to know how you can be so certain of your intuitions.

How can I prove it using a scientific method when you have stated your assertion that science can only disprove? Your argument is flawed.

Now are you saying you have no faith in anything or that faith, albeit a temporary belief, is wrong?

Should I really stick 'it is a strong belief that I happen to share that regardless of whether we like it or not - we have all been here before?' Rather long winded, and I made tha assumption that people would choose to either believe or no for themselves.

I can be certain of my beliefs because they are my beliefs. *sigh*

Did something unfortunate happen in your childhood? Did your parents do something to upset you? Are you one of those people who was told not to stick their fingers in the fire cos it would hurt - but for proof you did it anyhow?

When you die you will have all the proof you need. Until then - live with it, or without it - your choice.

And yes - Father Christmas is Real.

Dragon

Originally posted by DanSumption
Dragon,

You made the assertion that "We have all been here before, whether we wish to accept it or not" - I am genuinely interested to hear how you know this to be the case. If you've managed to "prove" this using a method other than the scientific method, I'd love to know about it. And if you've intuited it using the same method that has given us entire pantheons of gods, a flat earth and universes carried by a variety of different types of animal, I'd like to know how you can be so certain of your intuitions.

I'm still waiting for an answer to the same question Dragon - see my earlier post. How do you know that we have all been here before? How do you know this is the case - whether we accept it or not? Or is it just a nonsensical assertion on your part? I'm still waiting for your proof.

Sorry but I aint upto a theological debate at the moment - too much else on my mind. But if you search on the net I am sure you will find cases both for and against this assertion.

I am happy with the belief as it ties in wonderfully with my life and the path I have chosen to follow. Others are more comfortable believing otherwise.

These ideas bring in collective consciousness, quantum theory and many many ideas that are accepted by science as possible because they cannot be disproved, just as they cannot be proven. Using science - which is there to disprove - show me conclusive proof that states such a belief is wrong.

I dare say the flat earth society can come up with some damn good arguments against the earth being a sphere - that is their business. There is a debate going on all the time about the moon landing pictures being fakes, and a big question as to whether anyone has actually landed on the moon. The proof is inconclusive - like everything else.

You will find your believers and those who will not believe regardless of any proofs to the contrary of either. It all boils down to a question of choice.

Sorry I cannot give conclusive evidence there. But then - you prove conclusively that I exist will ya?

Dragon

Originally posted by Dragon
How can I prove it using a scientific method when you have stated your assertion that science can only disprove? Your argument is flawed.
I'm not asking you to prove it using a scientific method, I'm just asking you to back up your statement. I can quite easily say "fairies clean out my kitchen cupboards every night, whether you choose to accept it or not", but without a little more information about why I believe that it's a pretty meaningless statement.

Originally posted by Dragon
Now are you saying you have no faith in anything or that faith, albeit a temporary belief, is wrong?
Abbsolutely! Faith is a cancer which is killing society.

Originally posted by Dragon
Should I really stick 'it is a strong belief that I happen to share that regardless of whether we like it or not - we have all been here before?' Rather long winded, and I made tha assumption that people would choose to either believe or no for themselves.
Ah, now we're getting somewhere. So you admit it is just an intuition. And I presume you are well aware how wrong intuitions can be. Many things (that the earth is flat, that it is the centre of the universe, that the human race are some sort of "chosen" species distinct from all others) seem strongly intuitive, and have been the dominant beliefs for most of our species' existence. It is only recently since we've had the tools and methods to test these claims that we have found them to be wrong. Even then, it generally takes a couple of centuries for the realisation to sink in.

Human intuitions are very often wrong. There are good reasons for this, to do with the way the brain is wired, the way we are adapted for our environments, the way our societies are formed, etc. For the most part, we can accept the evidence of our senses because, millennia of existence have shown us, doing so keeps us fed and warm and has allowed for the propagation of our species. However, abstract intuitions such as "we have lived past lives" have absolutely no relevance in evolutionary terms and are just as likely to be wrong as they are to be right.

Originally posted by Dragon
I can be certain of my beliefs because they are my beliefs. *sigh*
And all tautologies are tautologies.

Originally posted by Dragon
Did something unfortunate happen in your childhood? Did your parents do something to upset you? Are you one of those people who was told not to stick their fingers in the fire cos it would hurt - but for proof you did it anyhow?
Actually I had a very happy, though blissfully ignorant, childhood, during which I believed in former lives, in astrology, and in various other mumbo jumbo. Then I was lucky enough to go to University, where the first cracks of doubt appeared when I read Descartes, and realised how brilliantly argued the first chapter of his meditations was and yet how his writing soon devolved into circular argument once he tried to prove the existence of God. Subsequent brushes with the work of Hume, Hofstadter, Dawkins, Ayer and others made me completely re-evaluate my earlier beliefs and adopt a skeptical, atheist position. In short, I grew up. And to be honest, I also became *even more* blissful.

Originally posted by Dragon
When you die you will have all the proof you need. Until then - live with it, or without it - your choice.
I refer you back to my original post on this topic:

<sings>
Have fun when you're alive,
You won't get nothing when you die
Have a good time all the time
Because you won't get nothing when you die
</sings>

Originally posted by Dragon
And yes - Father Christmas is Real.
Damn! You mean I've been wasting my time putting out stockings for my kids every year?!?

Originally posted by Dragon

But then - you prove conclusively that I exist will ya?

Dragon

Oh that's an easy question to answer Dragon.

The French philosopher René Descartes explained your existence with his famous observation "I think, therefore I am".

Or let's paraphrase Shakespeare 'If we prick you, do you not bleed? If we tickle you, do you not laugh?'

However, for all your postulating, you have dismally failed to prove your assertion. You are entitled to your beliefs, but you are not entitled to tell me that I have been here before, whether I accept it or not. Despite your claims, you clearly can't prove this nonsensical assertion.

I've no doubt that a case could be made for reincarnation using quantum physics, quantum physics is so essentially weird and ungraspable by human minds that it can easily be made to serve all sorts of bizarre theories.

There is a comment from Douglas Adams on the Audiobook "The Guide to the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" where he talks about the recent trend for some physicists to believe in God. I'm afraid I can't remember the exact words, and can't do justice to Adams's eloquence and incisiveness, but it went along the lines of "several physicists believe in God, whereas there are hardly any biologists who believe in God. I put this down to the fact that physicists spend their daily lives grappling with ideas so counter-intuitive and beyond human comprehension that it's not hard for them to fit God in there somewhere. Biologists, on the other hand, deal with the everyday stuff of life, and aren't so prone to flights of fancy".

Originally posted by redrobbo
Oh that's an easy question to answer Dragon.

The French philosopher René Descartes explained your existence with his famous observation "I think, therefore I am".
Ah, no, you can't prove that Dragon exists that way. Only Dragon can prove that Dragon exists by introspection, whereas you can only prove that you exist by introspection. Everything else: me, Dragon, the Sheffield Forum, and the entire world around you, could be (again in the words of Douglas Adams) just "illusions brought on by eating too many Oglanuts."

This is at the heart of one of the greatest problems of philosophy: we cannot truly have knowledge of anything in the world (hence science can only disprove) other than our own existence.

I stand corrected Dan........but now I'd like to know where can I get some Oglanuts! :hihi:

Fairies cleaning out your kitchen - you obviously do not know your fairies. They are far from the pleasant little creatures children are led to believe.
The whole point of the statement was about faith and beliefs. If this was my very own belief then I would equate it with your fairy comment. However - it is a belief shared by thousands of people so that part about fairies is a pretty meaningless statement.

Faith is a cancer that is killing society? Then how come things are getting progressively worse as peoples faith becomes less and less - or so it appears to be. I remember when I was a good little christian in a time when there were more good little christians than anything and we were taught that if we did wrong then god would punish us - so we did not. Guess what - it was safe to leave our doors unlocked, and the crime rate was a lot lot lower than today. The lack of faith appears to be one of the cancers of modern society.

If you want to settle for my claim to be an intuition then that really is okay by me. I will still stick by the assertion. If you want to believe that we get one shot at life then good for you.

Your methodology leaves much to be desired in your continued debate. If not for human intuitions then we would either be extinct or back in caves perhaps? I cannot prove this to be the case but I like the assumption. Again I refer to the scientific papers concerning quantum theories as well as singularities. There are plenty of sites that cover these topics if anyone cares to delve - but those are science based on intuition backed by some pretty impressive human brains.

Why would the abstract theory that we have all lived before not serve a purpose either constructively or otherwise. I know regression through hypnosis is supposed to have been almost completely disproved - though the debate still rages, depending on how you want to look at it, but is there any real harm in old mrs Frumpy believing she was once Joan of Arc? On the contrary - perhaps this gives Mrs Frumpy a reason to talk to someone, and through this we experience the butterfly effect - also neither proven nor otherwise.

You never did answer the question about proof that the fire would burn your fingers?

It is impressive how often during an argument people start reciting lists of authors, but hey - each to his own. I am of the unfortunate disposition in that I read the book and fail to memorise the writers - maybe cos I read too many books?

If you do not want to believe in deity then great - I sort of do believe, but again - that theological discussion is for other posts as they detract too much from the current thread.

And I revert to your original post in that how do you prove you won't get nothing when you die? So round and round in circles. Bit of selective intuition on each persons part me thinks.

No-one can prove or disprove whether we have been here before as someone else. Until science catches up with belief it seems the debate will reamin open by those unwilling to close their minds to possabilities, and lets face it - possabilities are what makes us what we are.

Dragon

ps - Oglanuts are available from various supermarkets either plain or salted, and sometimes dipped in chocolate, but they are quite expensive.

Dragon

Originally posted by Dragon


No-one can prove or disprove whether we have been here before as someone else.

Dragon

But you earlier posted.......
Originally posted by Dragon

We have all been here before, whether we wish to accept it or not.


So now you've retracted your earlier assertion. Glad we finally got that cleared up.

Nope - cos like a fundamentalist plonker I stick by it - whether we like to believe it or not we have all been here before.

Tis the proving of such a comment that is the difficult part, depending on who you are talking to, of course.

I stick by my claim - unless you can prove otherwise to me.

Dragon

A fundamentalist plonker you are,
But Dragon, you get a gold star,
No ifs or buts,
Or Oglanuts,
Can alter your opinion so far!

Hold fast to your beliefs and your creed,
Though their daft, which is what I've decreed,
What else can I say,
I'm only here for today,
But last week was Tony Blair, yes indeed!

DanSumption and Descartes and Shakespeare,
Will not alter your opinion, my dear,
But at the end of this thread,
I'm now off to bed,
And if I die, I'll stay dead, have no fear!

I've enjoyed our debates, they've been fun,
But it's late, and I'm tired, just all done,
But maybe one day,
We'll return to the fray,
And next time find my arguments won?!

Well, as RedRobbo says it seems there's nothing I can say to alter your opinion and vice versa. I would just like to point out that there is a little more to the scientific method than just intuiting theses and then attempting to disprove them. Good science also requires that for the most part you stick with theses that require the least, if you like, "leaps of faith" in order to make your idea stick. I don't deny that it's possible we may have lived past lives, or that a god may exist. However, both theses require so many alterations to the laws of physics and other well-established knowledge that they are so unlikely to be true that we can effectively disregard them.

A few more things... I'd be interested to know where souls come from, i.e. given that there are now more people alive than even existed in history until very recently, does this mean we have an unprecedented number of new souls roaming about? If so, where do these new souls come from? How are they created? And what is the meaning of having a soul which has lived a previous life? How does this affect anything in our day-to-day existence, and how does it differ from not having lived before?

Thanks for the poem Redrobbo. LOL

I seem to recall quite a few scientists ridiculed and threatened with burning at the stake for witchcraft for theories such as the earth being a sphere and gravity. Pretty radical leaps of faith to get those ideas across.

I have no belief in the soul per se. The word came first. The soul is nothing more than awareness and as awareness is possibly divisible in amoeba like manner then it would explain why there are more 'souls' etc.

And all awareness's need not be present in our current reality - going on the quantum line of thinking, but could occupy severral spheres of existance and be capable of crossing from one to another. This could explain a little bit about the need for the human mind to dream - without which there is death.

If there are infinite possabilities then it follows that there are infinite souls to occupy those possabilities, and so the debate continues. You may never understand how faith can be a rock for people to build their lifes upon, and that is the business of the individual.

As for the atheist thing - I do not believe in atheists. When the time comes, as it probably has on several occassions, you still spare a thought for that which you do not believe. There is a god within each and every one of us, and please note - I said within.

Next.

Dragon

Originally posted by Dragon
As for the atheist thing - I do not believe in atheists. When the time comes, as it probably has on several occassions, you still spare a thought for that which you do not believe. There is a god within each and every one of us, and please note - I said within.
That sounds to me very much like a tautology. I.e. it's all well and good to say "there is a god within each and every one of us", but unless you can explain what this means, and how it would differ if there were not a god within each and every one of us, then it's an empty statement.

Interesting debate here. I think you are arguing at cross purposes. Is it better to be happy or right? Is it better to have beliefs - whether they are right or wrong - if they make you happy? Or, as the logical ones of you will argue, is it always better to know the truth even if it makes you unhappy?

In the context of the start of this discussion I think I believe in reincarnation. I have read some pretty convincing things about it and, fundamentally, the idea of it makes me happy. I like the idea of meeting people again. Am I right? I don't have scientific proof for it. But if it makes my life a little bit more bearable, especially when I have lost someone, is that wrong?

If you use logic as your mainstay then you will have one opinion here. If you have belief you will have another. I'm fascinated by both.

The way i see it is this - if you live your life thinking that you are going to be reincarnated then you may well face death in others as well as yourself with a bit more equanimity. Besides this if you are wrong you are never going to know anyway as you will simply cease to exist. You win either way!

Claire x

Originally posted by coley
The way i see it is this - if you live your life thinking that you are going to be reincarnated then you may well face death in others as well as yourself with a bit more equanimity.
I agree with a lot of what you say coley, but this cuts both ways. In some Hindu communities in India, people have been known to kill themselves by self-immolation to protest relatively minor points because they "know" they're going to come back again anyway. It was also Hindus who were responsible for the worst suicide bombing campaign the world has known (the Tamil Tigers), again probably helped along by the fact that they had little to lose, only one reincarnation among so many.

Yes I suppose you could think that if you have more than one life then you can be more cavalier about the one you are living at the moment. I do think though that should you be that way inclined you could twist any religious or non religious belief into justifying your stance.

Isn't the idea of reincarnation though that there is some sort of learning and growth? If you do dreaful criminal acts then you are not likely to go up in ranking are you? From what I understand about Hinduism, and I'm by no means an expert, the idea is to continually improve yourself until you become part of God.

In my own, present, opinion (I am always open to a better argument) I think that we choose before we are born basic events in our life to learn from and the rest happens as it happens.

Claire x

OWDLAD (http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y28/cgksheff/Sheffield%20Forum/eastenders.jpg) used to be a CAT!! (http://www.caroluk.org.uk/mavica/nerosteal.jpg) :hihi:

Reincarnation, stated as fact,
is, I believe, an unwise act.
To declare a virtuous soul,
as truly the ultimate goal,
shows knowledge sadly lacked.

That we should presume
to know our destiny or doom
is conceited and going too far,
as unsure as most of us are,
of our fate beyond the tomb.

Those who sleep and never wake, live forever the reality of their dreams.

Reincarnation, stated as fact,
is, I believe, an unwise act.

And then you go on and spoil it with -

Those who sleep and never wake, live forever the reality of their dreams.

Thus making another assertion that cannot be supported except with reference to faith. Where is the proof of the comment, or is it just supposition?

The problem in such a debate rests in ones ability to accept possability, and where those doors are closed you eventually arrive at a stagnent mind. As mentioned before on this thread - where would we be if someone had not had faith in the theory of relativity and such? They did not just appear in the mainstream overnight.

Perhaps science will eventually have the means to prove or disprove reincarnation, and perhaps some scientists will take the risk of revealling the truth of it, one way or the other, but it iwll be a while yet as the possible repercussions of such a revelation could cause untold damage to the populace and faiths that bind the worlds peoples together.

Dragon

Part of original post by Dragon
Reincarnation, stated as fact,
is, I believe, an unwise act.

And then you go on and spoil it with -

Those who sleep and never wake, live forever the reality of their dreams.

Thus making another assertion that cannot be supported except with reference to faith. Where is the proof of the comment, or is it just supposition?
I should have made clear that the limerick is mine and is expressing my opinion, the closing single line is a quote, source unknown, that is presented as 'food for thought', not fact.

I suspect that the 'ultimate truth' for which men search is there in plain view, if only we had the intelligence to perceive it. This, to me, equates to the goldfish in the bowl being totally incapable of understanding the source of the food it receives each day, although it's plainly obvious to us... ;)

Does not being able to prove something as others would see proof to be mean that something cannot be true until it is proven beyond any shadow of a doubt?

I re-read that and it looks weird but it says what it is supposed to say.

Until science has the ability to encompass all things then there will never be proof suitable for those who choose not to believe. Not my job to convert people. Believe as you will. And being the obstinate so and so that I am - I will stick by my claim that we are all reincarnated souls ;) - until proven otherwise.

Dragon

Originally posted by Dragon
Does not being able to prove something as others would see proof to be mean that something cannot be true until it is proven beyond any shadow of a doubt?

I re-read that and it looks weird but it says what it is supposed to say.

Until science has the ability to encompass all things then there will never be proof suitable for those who choose not to believe. Not my job to convert people. Believe as you will. And being the obstinate so and so that I am - I will stick by my claim that we are all reincarnated souls ;) - until proven otherwise.

Dragon
I re-read it too, several times!!!

I would say that effectively, the answer is No... Many people have implicit faith in unproven 'facts', followers of religions, for example believe in an unproven 'truth'. You yourself state your belief in reincarnation of the soul, despite the fact that both reincarnation and the existence of the soul itself, are as far as I know, unproven, certainly not to general satisfaction.

Therefore I contend that you and others hold things to be true that so far cannot be conclusively proved to be so. Evidently to 'true believers', some things can be true (to them) without needing to be proven beyond a shadow of doubt.

Whether such beliefs actually are the truth matters not, if you believe them to be, then they become so to you, the believer... Such belief requires faith, which can bring great comfort to its' followers. I envy that aspect of it to some extent, but not sufficiently to persuade me to suspend reasoned judgement and follow in the same steps.

Please note, by stating my scepticism of unproven beliefs, I'm not doing so in order to attempt to dissuade religious followers or yourself from, or to disrespect, your convictions. All are entitled to their own opinions and beliefs, insofar as they don't impose them on, or adversely affect the lives of others.