The Battle of Trafalgar was fought on 21 October 1805, and was the most significant naval engagement of the Napoleonic Wars and the pivotal naval battle of the 19th century. A Royal Navy fleet of 27 ships of the line under the command of Admiral Lord Nelson destroyed a combined French and Spanish fleet consisting of 33 ships of the line west of Cape Trafalgar in southwest Spain. The Franco-Spanish lost 22 ships, the British none.

The British victory put an end to Napoleon's plans to invade Britain across the English Channel. After the battle, the Royal Navy remained unchallenged as the world's foremost naval power until the rise of Imperial Germany prior to the First World War, 100 years later.

What does this victory say to us today?

I have a personal opinion that we capitulate far too much to our European neighbours in this day and age. In particular I feel that the French politicians have humiliated us in their recent speeches about the rebate.

Could we not use the spirit and memory of trafalgar in a positive way to help us define our relationship with our European neighbours?

What does Trafalgar (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4081944.stm) mean to you?

:shocked: At this time of night? :shocked:

:suspect: I'll read this again in the morning. G'Night :wave:

I have often thought that the French see themselves as the natural leaders of Europe.
They defend their selfish way of life without any regard for the rules and regulations of Trade agreements. Witness the disruption caused by their blockades of Calais, the farmers blockade of the Auto-Routes, the blockade of British Lamb, their long campaigne against British Beef etc. etc.
It is good to see that their policy of self interest is being unravelled at last, though I don't entirely trust Blair and the man of Straw to follow it through.
After the Insults hurled around in the French press, and their return to Napoleonic comments about "Perfidious Albion" - - well, Remember what happened to Napoleon.
He was Routed in Spain, Egypt, and finally WATERLOO.
The French have never forgiven the British for Our Major part in those defeats, compounded by Churchil's opinions of De Gaulle, who spent most of his war in the clubs and ballrooms of London.
They never have been noted for historic victories, if you discount 1066 and all that. Their arrogance in their former colonies led to the bitter war of independance in Algeria, and indirectly the Viet-Nam/Cambodia war.
The European Constitution, A Major French Dream was soundly rejected by their own people, and then they start bleating about the British.
By all means beat the drum about Trafalgar. At the same time, remind them of "The Louisianna Purchase" "The Storming of the Heights of Abraham" "Their shameful Vichy Government".
Now they are complaining that the internet is predominently an English Language institution. As is "Air Traffic Control", The majority of Oil Companies operate an English speaking policy also.
Pure jealousy, and a feeling that they have nothing to feel superior about.

lol

you rosbif are funny.

Things like 'Oppit Frog come to mind.
They also call us "Crevvace Rouge":thumbsup:

While working in Algeria in the early 70's, I had a French friend (I did have some). To improve his English, and my French, we agreed to swop books.
He used to give me picture books, about "Blec Le Roc", a French mountain man who confounded the red-coats in Canada, before they lost their ambitions there. Hence the Crevvace Rouge name.
I used to give him C. S. Forrester novels - - Horatio Hornblower.
He developed a well rounded command of English.
"Belay That", and "Avast There".
He did eventually ask "Did the French ever win?"

Why the hell shouldn't we celebrate Trafalgar?
We won. Fact. It's part of history, why should we try to disguise it?

Don't recall there being any of this talk when we celebrated the D Day Landings, VE Day or was it because this didn't upset the French?

Why stop at Trafalgar?

Lets celebrate Suez.

Anything to upset the French.

Let's be honest, it doesn't take much.

Na-na-na-na-na, you're not getting our rebate!!!!!!

Agincourt? That'd be another good 'un :D

Ahhh, the French. We're either saving their asses or kicking them.

I think all in all, France should be disconnected from europe, and sent somewhere as far away as possible, they are one of the, if not THE most selfish arrogant, self loving bar stewards that seem to think they have sunlight shining out their posteriors.

I'm sorry, but lossing our rebate, what for? So we can pay lazy french farmers to do bugger all, oh and france, 2 sheep and a cow, is NOT a farm.

It all boils down to the fact they need a good kicking avery now and then to stop the size of their ego getting any bigger.

Joel

I wonder why we're not proud , in this country , of our achievements ?
In almost every country in the world you see people putting out their national flags , celebrating their national days and generally taking a pride in their country. That doesn't mean they're proud of EVERYTHING their country has done -------just proud of at least some of it.
In Britain , there seems to be a large number of people who detest everything that Britain has ever stood for . This seems very curious as we compare very favourably , I think , in historical terms , with most other countries that have had Empires.
I don't think , for example , that we ever behaved as badly as the French did in Algeria and that happened after WE had practically seen all our Empire dismantled.

Just keep reminding the French of the state they were in under German occupation and who bailed them out. They should never be allowed to forget.

You can really feel the love on here can't you?

Little Englanders beating their drum as they slowly slide off the world stage.....

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
You can really feel the love on here can't you?

Little Englanders beating their drum as they slowly slide off the world stage.....

No, I think, for a change, that it's simply "ordinary" English men and / or women who aren't ashamed of standing up and saying well done for achieving something.
In this case it just happens to be a victory over the French.

Why is that such a bad thing?

Sorry but where were YOU in the battle of trafalger? I am English, very proud to be one but when I read threads like these I'd rather be considered European. Did anyone tell you which century we are living in? Have you ever read the English history, not just the glorified accounts of past wartime victories? It's time to move on guys. There are good and bad in all countries but you are representing the bad points in ours!

rant over;)

Just keep reminding them - - They are not a world power any more. Their wine industry has been overtaken by the "New World" vinyards. The fashion centres are New York and London.
Their Army is a joke. Disney land is a flop. They sold exocet missiles to Argentina, Nuclear technology to Iran, they supported Saddam Hussain to protect their Oil ambitions in the middle east. Their speedy surrender caused the Dunkurque evacuation, yet De Gaulle was quick to lead the victory parade in Paris. Super arrogant -Yes, Leaders of Europe- No.

Ally I'd dearly like to consider myself European.
Would be more than ready to ditch the pound and use Euros.
Take off all mention of "Their Brittanic Majesties" from my passport etc etc etc

I just can't see what's so wrong in celebrating a victory.

In the interest of "Entente Cordiale".
Why don't we share the Olympic bid with Paris?
They can have all the synchronised swimming, Ice skating, and puddle jumping events etc.

Yes , I think Philip B. is right-----millions of ordinary people in Britain are not chauvinistic-----they are just proud of some of the things we have achieved and have a respect for our History.
No doubt there are ,"drum -beaters " who deny that anything Britain's done is bad. They are just as ignorant as the ones who drag everything British down. Surely we have got to try and be honest and balanced about our History.
Just as we know more about a situation if we know the background to that situation, so we know more about our present society , if we know what our past has been like-------and surely anyone with half a brain can see that we've done negative and positive things , within the various historical contexts.
So , let's celebrate , when we can . As I said before , we have a lot less to be ashamed of than many other comparable countries !

Originally posted by PhilipB
No, I think, for a change, that it's simply "ordinary" English men and / or women who aren't ashamed of standing up and saying well done for achieving something.

I disagree

Originally posted by sheffco
Just keep reminding them - - They are not a world power any more. Their wine industry has been overtaken by the "New World" vinyards. The fashion centres are New York and London.
Their Army is a joke. Disney land is a flop. They sold exocet missiles to Argentina, Nuclear technology to Iran, they supported Saddam Hussain to protect their Oil ambitions in the middle east. Their speedy surrender caused the Dunkurque evacuation, yet De Gaulle was quick to lead the victory parade in Paris. Super arrogant -Yes, Leaders of Europe- No.

Plenty of patriotism there -

Originally posted by Ousetunes
Anything to upset the French.

Let's be honest, it doesn't take much.

Na-na-na-na-na, you're not getting our rebate!!!!!!

Yes, it's all about Britain isn't it. Here's another fervent Brit with nothing bad to say about his country.

Originally posted by Joelc
I think all in all, France should be disconnected from europe, and sent somewhere as far away as possible, they are one of the, if not THE most selfish arrogant, self loving bar stewards that seem to think they have sunlight shining out their posteriors.

I'm sorry, but lossing our rebate, what for? So we can pay lazy french farmers to do bugger all, oh and france, 2 sheep and a cow, is NOT a farm.

It all boils down to the fact they need a good kicking avery now and then to stop the size of their ego getting any bigger.

Joel

Ah, my heart is bursting with pride for your country too, after these elqouent elegies to a tolerant and friendly nation of xenophiles.

Originally posted by Swan_Vesta
Agincourt? That'd be another good 'un :D

Ahhh, the French. We're either saving their asses or kicking them.


And now that we've seen how the love of country is manifested, let's just check back to the title of the thread
The Battle of Trafalgar (Should we remind the French who won?)=

Yeah, this is just ordinary people standing up and saying well done for achieving something....

I don't really see the point in celebrating something that you weren't involved in. Yes its history that changed the face of Europe at the time, but is pretty irrelevant in this day.

It seems a bit harsh labelling the whole of France based on a few political differences and a few stereotypes. It's the equivalent of any other country labelling us all as football hooligans.

France, like any other country is diverse and varied including its inhabitants. Personally, I have loved spending time there, finding it beautiful and fascinating. Maybe there are some arrogant folk there (not that I've come across many), but irony in this thread is just stunning.

Everyone knows what Nelsons Column in Trafalgar Square stands for. Now what does L' Arche De Triomphe commemorate?

I believe I'm right in saying that at the inception of the "Common Market" as was, did Winston Churchill not offer dual nationality to the French to allow us to join right at the beginning?
This was turned down by de Gaulle but it does perhaps shed some light on which of the two countries has the biggest nationalist opinion of itself.

I appreciate that this is going off on a bit of a tangent but don't these sorts of threads usually do that?

Apologies in advance if this has been posted before, but....


See what you get by entering "French Military Victories" in to Google, then hit the "I'm Feeling Lucky" button;).

Originally posted by sccsux
Apologies in advance if this has been posted before, but....


See what you get by entering "French Military Victories" in to Google, then hit the "I'm Feeling Lucky" button;).

Very good :D:D:D:D

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
I disagree

...

Yeah, this is just ordinary people standing up and saying well done for achieving something....

Well I started this thread and I can assure you that I am a very ordinary person!

I have never fought in a war or done anything to defend the country at all really.

Just thought it would be nice to say something about Trafalgar.

Don't see why that's a bad thing.

And as for the title of the thread... I think it's catchy! That's all.

I find it quite amusing that they have sent their largest warship to the Review of the Fleet.
Perhaps they think they will need it for the re-enactment of Trafalgar. It can't have many battle honours, can it?

It was 200 years ago - are the English as a nation so pitifull that they have to dig up something that old to try and portray themselves in a positive light? I certainly hope not and I personally find the Little Englander jingoism a bit nauseating...

Originally posted by sccsux
Apologies in advance if this has been posted before, but....


See what you get by entering "French Military Victories" in to Google, then hit the "I'm Feeling Lucky" button;).

Now that's (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/france.html) funny!:hihi: :hihi: :hihi:

The mere fact that the French tick people off so much that they feel the need to have a go, tells me they are doing something right.

Let's face it, without the French there would be no USA.

er. oh bugger.

Originally posted by evildrneil
It was 200 years ago - are the English as a nation so pitifull that they have to dig up something that old to try and portray themselves in a positive light? I certainly hope not and I personally find the Little Englander jingoism a bit nauseating...

I whole heartedly agree! I fail to see how celebrating anything that involved a lot of deaths is appropriate. Remember yes, but celebrate? I'm sure that some one will come back with something about what 'they' did. I'd like to point out that the 'they' of that time no longer exist.

Someone said , "Why should we celebrate something we weren't present at ?'
I just can't fathom that at all. We celebrate lots of events we weren't present at :-----Guy Fawkes Day , Birth of Jesus , V.E, day.........etc.....It's part of our history and since people seem to enjoy celebrations , they may as well celebrate an event. It focuses people's minds on what's happened in the past.
In the same way we could say we don't feel guilty or concerned about something awful we did in the past , simply because we werent there.
The whole point I was making is that , as a country we have done bad and good things in the past and just as we must criticise the negative things , we must also be proud of the good things --------because we don't live in isolation------our society's characteristics are made up of what has developed from the past.
The , "fanatics " , the zenophobes and the totally anti-British seem to have little or no historical sense.

Esprit de corps - - bit of French for you. It is built on a pride in the unit or service you are with.
Unfortunately as some have pointed out, the French seemed to just lose honourably, and don't have many victories to count.
The Navy can go back to Drake's time, and though there were a few low periods in their history, there was always the precedents of history to maintain their firm belief in eventual victory.
That may sound "Jingoistic" to a few of the younger people on the forum. It's called Patriotism.
It's not like the football supporters who change allegiance because the local team goes down a division or two. It is about supporting the country where you were born.
The traditions, the ceremonies, and a pride.
Let's hope Blair can continue to put a bit of backbone into his devoted fans.

I do not think we shall ever agree on anything with the french unless they are in a desperate situation such as the liberation.

We do not even agree on the name of the humble condom.

They call it a 'Sac Anglais' we call it a 'French Letter'.

We should probably take Coln Bendit's advice and go away and drink our tea whilst they go and drink their wine.

The trouble is 'They do not like that cold steel up em Mr Mainwaring'.

Make em have it, Tony!

The French are an arrogant race (Like the British)

However, we can usually back our arrogance up whilst they just flounder.

Watching BBC 24Hr News this morning. Good coverage for Trafalgar day. The fact that most of the worlds navy's will be represented says much about the way that it was/is regarded as one of the most significant naval actions in History.
Europe could well have been a very different place.
The French may not have had to resort to back-door methods of becoming the leading light. Not that I am not in favour of insulting Blair too.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
The mere fact that the French tick people off so much that they feel the need to have a go, tells me they are doing something right.


:suspect: Talking of French arrogance and memory failure...
Lest they forget (http://www.greatestjeneration.com/archives/001165.php)

unforgivable :mad:

But at least they're not embittered to one racial group (http://www.pluralism.org/news/intl/index.php?xref=Vandalism+of+French+Cemeteries&sort=DESC) - they hate everyone.

A page from the-doodlebugger.co.uk Web Site.




Algeria 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Home Ray


Back to the Crew


I wasn’t looking forward to this session, with Guy and Doug on leave, that just left Gedha and myself against the rest. They disliked Gedha, because he was better educated than they were, and better at his job. Me - well, I was known as “Le putain d’ Anglais” - look it up. With Queneau to lead them on it was going to be a rough ride. Gedha and I spent most of the out of work hours sipping beer in my room, or sleeping. Even mealtimes were uncomfortable because of the constant sniping, and it was better to leave before the drink took hold. The New Year was going to be the test.

Before he left, Doug and I had prepared for this. - - - The crew toilet was a drilled 50 metre hole, with a box and toilet seat on top, with a hessian surround. We had dropped a baton of dynamite down it, capped on a long lead. The lead was buried, and led to our room where we had drilled the floor to take it. I had a 12 volt battery hidden in my locker. New Years Eve, a day off work, the frogs had been drinking most of the day, Gedha and myself had prepared well, we had food and drink in my room. Being Algerian, the cooks and camp labourers treated him like a God, and I was saint Peter. As the evening wore on, the yells and songs from the mess were getting louder, and the shouted insults becoming stronger. They would draw the line at violence because of the Algerian camp staff, but the intimidation was a bit heavy. We waited patiently. At midnight, as they began to sing the “Marsellaise”, I touched off the cap lead to the battery.- - - - -BOOM ! ! - - - it went off like a cannon - - - - a twenty metre column of s--t and paper fired 100 metres into the air. The frogs staggered out of the mess - just as it pitter pattered back down like heavy rain. I had the door barred, and whipped the remains of the firing line in through the hole in the floor. We toasted the New Year and each other as we listened to the shocked yells from outside. Most of them were so drunk, they didn’t even shower, just carried on and slept like that “salle cochon” that they were. The next day, there were a few shamed faces in the mess, but nothing was said. The labourers and myself had a great laugh about it in the field, and Gedha made sure that everyone knew the story, but not who had done it. - - - - I had made a real enemy of Queneau though, and he wouldn’t forget it. I learned later that he was Homosexual anyway, so he would certainly take a dislike to me.

Doug and Guy returned, and were highly amused at the New Year success. There was no love lost between Guy and Queneau. Why are homosexuals attracted to the kind of person most likely to laugh at them - - - A true doodlebugger.

The crew were still shooting the advance lead, so we began to prepare for the move south. Guy Doug and myself were going on an advance trip to find the location and have a scout around.


Algeria Home Guestbook Page-5 Ray

I guess it explains some of my attitudes towards the French.
Cheers
Sheff

Originally posted by sheffco
I was known as “Le putain d’ Anglais” - look it up. I guess it explains some of my attitudes towards the French.
Cheers
Sheff

I looked on babelfish & it said "I long for the comfort of your touch"

:confused:

I could have spelled it wrong. I speak french with an Algerian accent "Pied Noir". I never did learn how to spell it, but it definitely is an insult.
It was over thirty years ago, and it was a pretty rough and ready way of life.
There were many people at the time who blamed the Allies for the second wave of bombing and invasion. They had settled for the German occupation, and said that the Normandy landings upset their way of life all over again!

I notice the Carrier 'Charles De Gaulle' was the most powerful ship in the commemorative flotilla that assembled in Portsmouth to mark the date of the Battle.

Naval vessels from over 30 countries were present.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
I notice the Carrier 'Charles De Gaulle' was the most powerful ship in the commemorative flotilla that assembled in Portsmouth to mark the date of the Battle.

Naval vessels from over 30 countries were present.

Perhaps this is a (not so subtle) French joke. De Gaulle was resolutely opposed to British entry into the EU and rebuffed our attempts to enter during his presidency in the 1960s. He justified his opposition by arguing that we were too close to the US and therefore would be a kind of Trojan horse for US power and cultura imperialism and that our Anglo-Saxon values were incompatible with 'European' values. There was also a strong streak of resentment in him stemming from his wartime experiences in Britain. Churchill said sometime after the war that the heaviest cross he had to bear during the war was the Cross of Lorraine, apparently because of De Gaulle's haughty and arrogant manner and also because of his sensitivity to perceived slights. We stood no chance of entering the EU as long as De Gaulle was in power. His successor, Georges Pompidou, was more amenable and we finally entered on 1 January 1973. Many people in France though still share many of De Gaulle's views about the UK and the EU.

On the other hand, it may not be a French joke, but simply a reflection of the paucity of European naval power. France is the only EU country with big, traditional, aircraft carriers, even these can be counted on the fingers of one hand. The UK does not, as we found to our great cost during the Falklands war. If you compare European naval power with that of of the US, you get a sharp insight into why the US is a superpower, even a hyperpower, in a military sense. It has a global reach and can mount military operations anywhere, because of the quality and quantity of its air and naval power (a pity though that this formidable military capability is not currently matched by the intellectual power or wisdom - or even common sense - emanating from the current incumbent of the White House).

Well, it's important that the French are represented in these ceremonies at a symbolic level. At least the Charles De Gaulle warship carries a name that the French can be proud of. He was a great military thinker and wartime strategist!

He fought in both World Wars. At the outbreak of World War II, Charles de Gaulle was a colonel commanding a tank regiment in Alsace.

De Gaulle was one of the few in the French cabinet to resist surrender to the Germans and to propose that the government withdraw if necessary to North Africa to continue the struggle.
However when Marshal Petain, who was committed to an armistice with the Germans, became premier, de Gaulle left for London. On June 18 he broadcast the first of his appeals to his compatriots to continue the struggle.

He soon became the very symbol of the entire French Resistance, even though the exiled armed forces at his disposal were few in number. In July 1940 a French court martial sentenced de Gaulle to death for treason.

We all know the reasons that UK downsized the Navy, and the armed forces. Ever diminishing budget allocations.
Why did the French build the Charles De Gaulle (Maybe Asterix).
They have certainly never had any need for it, or shown any intention of using it.
If the Entente Cordiale meant anything, they could have lent it to us.
God knows, we bankrupted GB during the last alliance (WWII).
Now that the economic circumstances are reversed, they are pleading poverty. (Read Bigger Subsidies) Which probably helped them to build it in the first place.
We had to sink their last fleet at Oran, to prevent Viche from giving them to Germany.

Originally posted by LordChaverly
If you compare European naval power with that of of the US, you get a sharp insight into why the US is a superpower, even a hyperpower, in a military sense. It has a global reach and can mount military operations anywhere, because of the quality and quantity of its air and naval power (a pity though that this formidable military capability is not currently matched by the intellectual power or wisdom - or even common sense - emanating from the current incumbent of the White House).


With 12 Carriers and 8 Full Carrier Strike Groups, 14 Ballistic missile Subs, 4 guided missile subs (by the end of this year), 58 attack (antisub/shipping) subs and 702 overseas bases in about 130 countries, (plus an intercontinental air power capability and the largest number of combat aircraft in the world) the US is in a completely unique position to exercise miltary force wherever its regime wants to without any significant opposition whatsoever.

Those who do not remember history are condemned to repeat it and those who cannot move on are condemned to live in it?

Originally posted by sheffco
We all know the reasons that UK downsized the Navy, and the armed forces. Ever diminishing budget allocations.
Why did the French build the Charles De Gaulle (Maybe Asterix).
They have certainly never had any need for it, or shown any intention of using it.
If the Entente Cordiale meant anything, they could have lent it to us.
God knows, we bankrupted GB during the last alliance (WWII).
Now that the economic circumstances are reversed, they are pleading poverty. (Read Bigger Subsidies) Which probably helped them to build it in the first place.
We had to sink their last fleet at Oran, to prevent Viche from giving them to Germany.

But it is also due to France's semi-detached membership of NATO and its hankering for a European military capability independent of US power. France has been the prime mover in the attempts to create an EU military force of some kind. So far, all this has resulted in is the European 'Rapid Reaction Force' (agreed at the Nice European Council in December 2000), centred on peace keeping rather than on peace enforcing activities. This has led to suspicions in the US that France is seeking to undermine NATO and therefore the US military presence in Europe. However, the European RRF is so weak that, even given its limited role, it cannot function without the help of NATO. Given European governments are in no mood to increase military expenditures, this situation is likely to remain for a very long time - as will the inherent conflict between the 'Europeanist' (e.g. French) and 'Atlanticist' (e.g. British) approaches to European security.

[Quote
De Gaulle was one of the few in the French cabinet to resist surrender to the Germans and to propose that the government withdraw if necessary to North Africa to continue the struggle.
However when Marshal Petain?

Proposed to hand over the French Navy (Based in Oran-Algeria) and the submarine pens opposite Gibralta on the Mediterranean/Atlantic coast to the Third Reich. Churchill ordered them to surrender or be attacked and sunk. The last encounter between the French and British Navy, I think!

Originally posted by evildrneil
It was 200 years ago - are the English as a nation so pitifull that they have to dig up something that old to try and portray themselves in a positive light? I certainly hope not and I personally find the Little Englander jingoism a bit nauseating...

Shall we ask the Argentinians who won the Falklands conflict then?

The fact is there was a battle between the French and British navy and we won - cant change that. This battle changed the face of naval warfare and should be commemorated as such but we won and should be allowed to celebrate this.

I'm not saying that England (for i live in England not Britain, i am not Scottish, Welsh or Irish, in fact i'm not French, German, Sapnish, dutch, Polish or any other state within the european union so i amnot european either - a fact my employers dont seem to recognise in our ethnic origin but thats another story) is perfect - far from it BUT it seems that we are scared of celebrating things that are English (or British) either for fear of offending others (St george's day flags been banned for fear of insulting other nationalities) or having to apologise for things happening in war time (to the Germans of all people).

England is the finest country in the world in my opinion and i am proud to be English and i'm more proud to be a Yorkshire man. I will celebrate english victories and remember English losses.

(another work thing here - at my employers we traditionally ring a bell to mark rememberance day - this year they didnt because "didnt want to make people feel forced to observe it" YET ON SEPT 11TH WE HAD A 3 MINUTE SILENCE!!!) why because white, english do gooders are scared of offending anyone and everyone so they make up stupid policies.)

Rant Over - Well done Nelson!

English and Proud of it (as proud as the establishment will let me)
Yorkshire man and loving it!

Originally posted by evildrneil
It was 200 years ago - are the English as a nation so pitifull that they have to dig up something that old to try and portray themselves in a positive light? I certainly hope not and I personally find the Little Englander jingoism a bit nauseating...


why is it wrong to be patriotic??????

Originally posted by evildrneil
Those who do not remember history are condemned to repeat it and those who cannot move on are condemned to live in it?
Can't quite understand this??

It is because we are proud of our history (Good Or Bad), but mainly good that we remember it.
Because we remember other peoples history as well, we don't really want to be dragged into partnerships that cost us dear.
For those people who were recently educated, with "No Win" ethics, I feel sorry. The whole thing about competing is to Win.

The above quotation, to me, means lie down and be walked over. As is more attributable to our european partners of old.
The newer inclusions into the partnership, seem more inclined to fight back (Politically of Course).
Personally, I'm observing Trafalgar day with a couple of glasses of Grog. (Gunfire) to the un-initiated. "For what we are about to recieve???"
A good old military tradition, and thank god we still have a Navy.

GOD (whoever it may or may not be depending on your point of view but since i'm an athiest i shall use it as a point of reference) SAVE THE QUEEN!

Originally posted by sheffbag
why is it wrong to be patriotic??????

Patriotism? What patriotism? Patriotism is defined as "One who loves, supports, and defends one's country" (and incidently derived from the French "patriote"). As far as I can see this thread has been used to dredge up old history to have a go at the French - thats hardly any form of patriotism is it?

As a couple of asides, why on earth are you "proud" to be English, your nationality (unless you are an immigrant) is an accident of both geography and biology over which you have no controll - hardly anything to be proud of? and as far as I was aware England is a part of the European Union - so you are European!

Originally posted by Joelc
I think all in all, France should be disconnected from europe, and sent somewhere as far away as possible, they are one of the, if not THE most selfish arrogant, self loving bar stewards that seem to think they have sunlight shining out their posteriors.

I'm sorry, but lossing our rebate, what for? So we can pay lazy french farmers to do bugger all, oh and france, 2 sheep and a cow, is NOT a farm.

It all boils down to the fact they need a good kicking avery now and then to stop the size of their ego getting any bigger.

Joel Isn't it said somewhere in the forum rule that racist remarks aren't allowed ?

I'm just waiting for someone to say that that isn't racism, it is, really ;)Originally posted by evildrneil
and as far as I was aware England is a part of the European Union - so you are European! No it isn't, it's an island of people who don't want anything to do with anyone else and left along drinking tra whilst watching cricket, and slurring continentals.

You know what ? I'm French by birth, I don't feel European... I'm also British by birth, and I don't feel any more European. Yet you guys, grown up in your inbred villages think you know what you're on about ;)

also everyone talking about Trafalgar, usually forgets that until the Napoleonic defeat there, he ruled all of europe, not bad me reocns, I can't remember the British ever accomplishing that apart form owning a third of France by marriage.

Who Moderates the Moderators?
Chirac himself could not have said better.
It sounds like an attack to me, on anyone who wants to be English, and not be ashamed of it.
But then, we get used to people slating everything British, but they still seem happy to live here.
Not everyone wants to be part of europe, well not the french idea of it.

Originally posted by sheffco
Who Moderates the Moderators?
Chirac himself could not have said better.
It sounds like an attack to me, on anyone who wants to be English, and not be ashamed of it.
But then, we get used to people slating everything British, but they still seem happy to live here.
Not everyone wants to be part of europe, well not the french idea of it.

Moderators are allowed their own views - for example, I think we should celebrate Trafalgar Day properly EVERY year, along with something to celebrate the Battle of Waterloo.

Oh, and I'm a Eurosceptic.

And the Moderators are moderated by Geoff!

:)

Originally posted by evildrneil
Patriotism? What patriotism? Patriotism is defined as "One who loves, supports, and defends one's country" (and incidently derived from the French "patriote"). As far as I can see this thread has been used to dredge up old history to have a go at the French - thats hardly any form of patriotism is it?

As a couple of asides, why on earth are you "proud" to be English, your nationality (unless you are an immigrant) is an accident of both geography and biology over which you have no controll - hardly anything to be proud of? and as far as I was aware England is a part of the European Union - so you are European!

Check my post -
do i berate the French? - No.
Do i say i am proud to be English - Yes
Is that patriotic? according to your definition - Yes

I find your slur on the fact that i am proud to be English amusing to say the least. An accident of geography and biology.

I was born in England therefore i am english, a physical occurance took place in the COUNTRY known as ENGLAND therefore I AM ENGLISH

to take your point, the european union is a man made creation where a number of parliamentary bodies decreed that for the sake of trade and other financial reasons that to work togther underneath an umbrella of "The European union" would be a good idea.

It is not a physical state last time i checked. I dont live in the country of Europe unless i am missing something. I live and was born in the physical country of england. I dont see how you can say i am european, what country of "geographical" area is it. As far as i can see the EU is a man made creation and is not a country so your point is?


And another point since we seem to have lost the thread - why today when we are celebrating the Battle do we have our fleets in "red and blue as not to offend the French" (source BBC News) for gods sake its a re-enactment of a event in history why are we changing the names???

I think the above point shows that the PC Do gooders are taking over the world.

Thanks Joe.

Just thought it was getting a bit anti English.

Thanks too to Scarlet - - I agree, we are an island of no mans.
I can trace my ancestry back to the 1100's or so, and there was a "De" in front of the name, though I like to think there have been a few injections of spirited blood since then.
If the reference to Villages was meaning Sheffield, we used to call it the biggest village in England.
There have been enough references to the real meaning of the Trafalgar Day celebrations on the news channels, and I'm quite sure that they are intended to cock a snook at Chirac, and to remind him that when it comes down to it, the English usually win. After all, he started hurling the insults, and we may not agree entirely with Blair, but we at least are 100% English.

There's nothing wrong with liking the country that you live in. No one has a problem with that. Hoist your union flag or St Georges cross (or European Union flag) if you feel the need. Trust me, you will not be told to take it down. Search the forum and you will probably find that any such stories are generally fictitious propaganda.

I am aware of our history. Am I proud? Not particularly, as I didn't have much of an impact on our history. I have nothing against being British, but I do feel it's unnecessary to keep hold of traditional negativity towards an entire country's inhabitants because of what has happened hundreds of years in the past. It's fair enough to disagree with a countries political stance, but as we are fully aware, politicians rarely speak on behalf of the country's inhabitants. I know that I don't agree with our country's political stance, and hope that I am not personally judged by it.

Originally posted by sheffbag
Check my post -
do i berate the French? - No.
Do i say i am proud to be English - Yes
Is that patriotic? according to your definition - Yes

However the majority of the thread has been used to berate the French which is not patiotic!

I find your slur on the fact that i am proud to be English amusing to say the least. An accident of geography and biology.

Slur? It's a fairly accurate assessment? Did you have any input on who your parents were and where you happened to be born? No? In that case it was an accident of biology and geography and nothing more. I simply can't see why someone should be proud of somthing which they have no input into. I am appreciative of the fact that I was born in the UK rather than, say, Sub-Saharan Africa as my quality of life and life expectancy are much higher - but to be proud of the accident of birth seems to me to be the height of pointlessness.

It is not a physical state last time i checked. I dont live in the country of Europe unless i am missing something. I live and was born in the physical country of england. I dont see how you can say i am european, what country of "geographical" area is it. As far as i can see the EU is a man made creation and is not a country so your point is?

Europe (http://www.countriesandcities.com/continents/europe/countries.htm) is a geographical region which does contain the United Kingdom, so in terms of both politics and geography you are European!

And another point since we seem to have lost the thread - why today when we are celebrating the Battle do we have our fleets in "red and blue as not to offend the French" (source BBC News) for gods sake its a re-enactment of a event in history why are we changing the names???

No it isn't:

Second Sea Lord, Vice Admiral Sir James Burnell-Nugent, said the event was "a celebration of a battle at sea at the time of Nelson - not an exact mock-up of the British and French at Trafalgar".

Originally posted by evildrneil
However the majority of the thread has been used to berate the French which is not patiotic!



Slur? It's a fairly accurate assessment? Did you have any input on who your parents were and where you happened to be born? No? In that case it was an accident of biology and geography and nothing more. I simply can't see why someone should be proud of somthing which they have no input into. I am appreciative of the fact that I was born in the UK rather than, say, Sub-Saharan Africa as my quality of life and life expectancy are much higher - but to be proud of the accident of birth seems to me to be the height of pointlessness.



Europe (http://www.countriesandcities.com/continents/europe/countries.htm) is a geographical region which does contain the United Kingdom, so in terms of both politics and geography you are European!



No it isn't:

Second Sea Lord, Vice Admiral Sir James Burnell-Nugent, said the event was "a celebration of a battle at sea at the time of Nelson - not an exact mock-up of the British and French at Trafalgar".

your quality of life is better - how do you draw that assumption? what are you basing that statement on.

Are you not proud of your surroundings and the country that you were born in?

If any sporting event was on that you enjoyed (i dont know so i wont use football but i presume you have a sporting interest in something be it darts tiddlywinks or rugby) at an internatinoal level would you support England or team GB if they were competing against against one of our Eurtopean neighbours or woudl you say "its alright if the hungarians/slovaks/poles win, we are all european after all"

If we are european then why in the sporting world are we all seperate except for events which are intercontinental challenges such as the ryder cup?

If i am european then why do i need a passport to travel to other european countries?

If i am european why do i have sterling in my pocket and not euro's

if i am european why does my full address say England (or UK) with an british postcode.

Is england a county of europe much the same of yorkshire is a county of England

I have pride in county and country, it may be a mess in places and have a lot of bad things about it but it's ours and its up to us to look after it and be proud of it.

and if the re-enanctment today is "a celebration of a battle at sea at the time of Nelson - not an exact mock-up of the British and French at Trafalgar"

then who else were we battling at the time and why is it all to do with the anniversary of the battle of trafalgar? was there another battle later in the day we dont know about that happened somewhere else perhaps during lunch break we fought the dutch or the mighty andorrain fleet in the humber?

if its nothing to do with trafalgar then why the red and blue colours "so not to uspet the french"?

Originally posted by evildrneil
Patriotism? What patriotism? Patriotism is defined as "One who loves, supports, and defends one's country" (and incidently derived from the French "patriote"). As far as I can see this thread has been used to dredge up old history to have a go at the French - thats hardly any form of patriotism is it?

As a couple of asides, why on earth are you "proud" to be English, your nationality (unless you are an immigrant) is an accident of both geography and biology over which you have no controll - hardly anything to be proud of? and as far as I was aware England is a part of the European Union - so you are European!
Well?
It's a wise man who knows his parents. I have no doubt on that, or their parents, or their parents, and if you are going to cast any slur on that????????
Patriotism is derived from a belief, I don't know which language it is derived from, but I suspect Latin. Patria, meaning Father, ergo, Fatherland.
A belief that your country, is owed an allegiance.
Democracy, as was so abely demonstrated by the french rejecting Chirac, is the process by which you change the government that you disbelieve in. Not the Country.
You people who really believe that they are european can easily take the chunnel and live in the country of your choice.
Wait until the Victor Meldrews of this age are long gone, Please

Originally posted by evildrneil


Europe (http://www.countriesandcities.com/continents/europe/countries.htm) is a geographical region which does contain the United Kingdom, so in terms of both politics and geography you are European!



Ok, the next Australian/New Zelander you meet, you must refer to him as an Oceanianian. Stupid really isnt it. I for one may LIVE in Europe, but I certainly dont regard myself as European. I'm an Englishman, despite the fact I was born in Germany due to my father being in the forces, but england is my home.

At the end of the day, all the european union about is other countires having thier fingers in everyone elses pie. And anyone with any sence who feels the slightest connection to being English/scottish/welsh will tell you that they would like to run thier own affairs, rather then have some fat french/german/italia or whatever telling us what to do.

At the end of the day, we are our own county, our own people, and we should be damn proud of it, and not let go of our nationality which decribes who we are. If the french/germans etc etc etc want to give up thier identity to become a big glob of European mess, let them, the small of garlic and sausages anyway. We as a nation should be proud of who we are, our cutural identity, and out Britishness. To say we once had a massive empire, were all turning a bit wussy now.

And before I get accused at poking at the rest of europe, they do it to us. And besides, we could wipe the lot out in an instant witha chorus of lady in red sung buy a duo of Chris d'Burg and Cherie Blair.

Joel

Mesdammes et Messieurs
Je suis desolee que a'd'jourduis je suis un peu plein de gall, avec le bon homee.
Le Whiskey (Franglais) et en plain flot. Mes idee's son plain shot. Degalasse je suis certainement not.
En suite, je suis en bon commande de mes senses.
Apologies for the spelling, I was taught by uneducated Algeriennes. I spelt that one right.

A La Votre
Sheff

I could really ensure the wipe out Joel with my own version of "When I'm Sixty Four"
Army style.

Originally posted by Joelc
Ok, the next Australian/New Zelander you meet, you must refer to him as an Oceanianian. Stupid really isnt it. I for one may LIVE in Europe, but I certainly dont regard myself as European. I'm an Englishman, despite the fact I was born in Germany due to my father being in the forces, but england is my home.
Joel

True

you try telling people fighting in Kashmir reason that they should stop because they are all Asian

Or walk into a Glaswegian pub at about 10 on a saturday stand on the bar and shout

None of you are scottish - you are all european! therefore since england is a part of Europe you can technically be called english as it is all part of europe you know

be back in the morning to scrape you up off the floor

Do you not feel any national pride at all at any event Evildr?

back in the mornign to see repsonses - have fun and remember

If it wasnt for the British (and her allies) we would be writing this in German!

I do find this 'them and us' mentality fascinating (although very common on this forum). It's as though Britain is one big person and the rest of Europe is one big person. When we speak about the French we are speaking about millions of individuals. Politics aside, there are no major differences between individuals of this country and individuals of France. Everytime that I have visited France (and any other country for that matter) I have chatted with many locals to find that they no different to me than any other person in this country. Equally their opinions differ no more to mine than anyone else's.

As I've said, its fine to disagree with political aspects of any country (including this one), but to slanderously insult a whole country's populace based on some narrow minded viewpoint must surely be seen as unfair.

Final point (i promise) check out the www.trafalgar200.com

website.

where it states

The Royal Navy - inspired for the past 200 years by the remarkable life of Admiral Lord Nelson and the dramatic victory at Trafalgar - is proud to organise Trafalgar 200 and to take a leading role within the wider Trafalgar Festival and SeaBritain 2005.

Dramatic victory at Trafalgar!!!


so what exactly has todays celebration been about

I've enjoyed watching the "Wuss's" popping in for a chat
MEEEEoww!
They have to test their little claws somewhere.
I sometimes think "You are not really English are you"
Lord knows where the appreciation of heritage and history came from.
And what do their parents think?

"Celebrating" the brutal slaughter of thousands of men, no matter which country they happened to be born in, is more than a little bit sick. Sober reflection at the loss of life is a more appropriate response than flag-waving.

War is evil - no doubt about it. innocent people die because of poiticians and evil people

We do remember the dead but we should also celebrate the fact that they gave so we could live a life of liberty.

Lest we forget

The re-enactment, who will be the reds, and who the blues??
And I hope there will be no Blue on Blue's this time.
The Charles De Gaulle should be glad we let it cross the Channel this time. Read Le Manche for the Franglaise.

Originally posted by sheffco
The Charles De Gaulle should be glad we let it cross the Channel this time. Read Le Manche for the Franglaise.

From sheffbag's considered post to this kind of hooligan fodder. Sheesh.

Just - - - post natal gibberish - - all intelligent comments appreciated.
However - - school has just got out.

Originally posted by sheffbag


If it wasnt for the British (and her allies) we would be writing this in German!

I think the English Channel helped a little bit as well - if we'd shared a land based border with Germany would we have been able to hold off an invasion?

Originally posted by sheffbag
your quality of life is better - how do you draw that assumption? what are you basing that statement on.

Is that a serious question? I think its fairly well astablished that the quality of life in the UK is rather better thanin sub-saharan africa!

Are you not proud of your surroundings and the country that you were born in?

Erm no - I like it but why on earth should I be proud about something I had no controll or input over? I am proud of the fact that I worked hard and got good degrees but proud of that accident of geography and biology not at all!

If any sporting event was on that you enjoyed (i dont know so i wont use football but i presume you have a sporting interest in something be it darts tiddlywinks or rugby) at an internatinoal level would you support England or team GB if they were competing against against one of our Eurtopean neighbours or woudl you say "its alright if the hungarians/slovaks/poles win, we are all european after all"

I'm not a big sports fan in all honesty but on the few times I do watch it I prefer to see the better sportsman/team win no matter where they come from.

If i am european then why do i need a passport to travel to other european countries?

If i am european why do i have sterling in my pocket and not euro's

if i am european why does my full address say England (or UK) with an british postcode.

Thats a rather specious argument - thats a political/procedural question and has no bearing on the FACT that the UK is both grographically part of Europe and a part of the European union and therefore you are European.

Is england a county of europe much the same of yorkshire is a county of England

no its a country within the geographical and political entity of Europe. Being English and European are not mutualy exclusive in the same way that being a Yorkshireman and and Englishman are not mutually esclusive.

Originally posted by sheffco
I've enjoyed watching the "Wuss's" popping in for a chat
MEEEEoww!
They have to test their little claws somewhere.
I sometimes think "You are not really English are you"
Lord knows where the appreciation of heritage and history came from.
And what do their parents think?


Yes I know Exactly where my family come from. Ireland and New Zealand. And Yes I am fully aware of the history of this country. And ***** what my parents think. It has nothing to do with what I think!

Don't patronise me and my point of view Lad!

Can you not take the fact that people have a different point of view to you? Are you really that limited?
Christ, I'm so grateful that I can accept other people's point view!

And Please, don't question how English I am. I was born here, therefore I am as English as you! It's just that I'm not arrogant enough to think that makes me any different to the rest of the population. I am an individual person worth nothing, just as you are my friend! Deal with it!

I appreciate history and understand it. I pity your sad allegiance to it. If you wish to live in the past then so be it.

Originally posted by evildrneil
As a couple of asides, why on earth are you "proud" to be English, your nationality (unless you are an immigrant) is an accident of both geography and biology over which you have no controll - hardly anything to be proud of?

Originally posted by evildrneil
Erm no - I like it but why on earth should I be proud about something I had no controll or input over? I am proud of the fact that I worked hard and got good degrees but proud of that accident of geography and biology not at all!

Hi evildrneil.

On several posts here you have referred to your nationality as being an accident. Something you have no control over.

Would it be fair to assume that you feel dispossessed by the society you live in?

How sad.

Originally posted by evildrneil
I simply can't see why someone should be proud of somthing which they have no input into.

Sad also that you think of yourself as someone who treads so lightly in this world that you have absolutely no influence or input into the society in which you live.

Personally I don't look at a country as simply 'geography' and 'biology'; I see countries and nations as wonderfully diverse, active, motile, dynamic collections of people.

Britain itself is a shinning example of a nation that is made up of so many groups of people from so many parts of the world. Each new addition adds to the mix, the culture, the nation.

So that's what the nation is... not just a place, not just a biological line... the nation is all of us, no matter where we first came from, getting up out of bed today, going out, interacting, working, producing, contributing, playing, adding to what has come before.

And when I take my small part in that great daily step forward tomorrow, as a British citizen, I will feel proud.

And nobody can take that from me.

Originally posted by Joelc
At the end of the day, we are our own county, our own people, and we should be damn proud of it, and not let go of our nationality which decribes who we are.
Joel

The nation state is fast becoming a total anachronism.

Hans Morgenthau
- Modern technology has rendered the nation state obsolete as a principle of political organization; for the nation state is no longer able to perform what is the elementary function of any political organization: to protect the lives of its members and their way of life . . . The modern technologies of transportation, communications, and warfare, and the resultant feasibility of all-out atomic war, have completely destroyed this protective function of the nation state.

Well, it would appear that The Naval review was well covered by the news channels, with plenty of references to the size of the Charles De Gaulle. Big isn't Better, as was proven by the comparative size of the fleets at Trafalgar.
Thousands attended in small boats, and along the shores, a truly World event.
The topic was well supported on the Forum too, apart from a small insignificant minority.
I wonder what it is like to have never been a team member.
You know, the one always left behind when the sides are picked. The teacher has to force one side to accept you.
To be the one at a party, where the "Kissing game" breaks up when it's your turn.
I guess you would end up sort of Homogenized. No National pride, because it might offend someone. No feelings of loss, because you always support the winning side (The best one).
No allegiance, because you are only here by accident.
Reminds me of the mouse and the elephant joke.
They walked across a rickety bridge together, and when they reached the other side, the mouse said "Boy didn't we make it shake".
Well I enjoyed the celebrations, and I think we soundly reminded everyone of who won.
P.S. I was very deeply upset, when "The Shiny Sheff" was sunk during the Falklands conflict. Living in Malta at the time, and the TV in every Bar was tuned to the Italian RAI TV. The Maltese public, long friends of the British Navy and the Marines, openly wept at the losses, and cheered every victory.
Cheers
Sheff

Originally posted by evildrneil
Is that a serious question? I think its fairly well astablished that the quality of life in the UK is rather better thanin sub-saharan africa!

is it so - based on what assumption, what is better about europe than africa (based on your theory if we are european then sub saharan is just africa) please verify your statement on "quality of life" and why europe is better than africa


Originally posted by evildrneil
I'm not a big sports fan in all honesty but on the few times I do watch it I prefer to see the better sportsman/team win no matter where they come from.

You serious? You dont feel anything when an english or british team wins or you dont feel a bit disappointed if we get beat - do you not want your fellow country men to succeed in their chosen field? do you not support your fellow biological/geographical accidents? or are you so singular that you dont care if others succeed as long as your european buddies are ok.

Originally posted by evildrneil
Thats a rather specious argument - thats a political/procedural question and has no bearing on the FACT that the UK is both grographically part of Europe and a part of the European union and therefore you are European.

I refer you to your previous post saying that Europe is a political body if you wish to use a political point then i shall reply to it using political questions, (which you didnt answer)


Originally posted by evildrneil
no its a country within the geographical and political entity of Europe. Being English and European are not mutualy exclusive in the same way that being a Yorkshireman and and Englishman are not mutually esclusive.

You can only be from one nationality, where you are born in that country you may be from one continent as well but you are from one country wherever the "accident" may be.

nation

• noun a large body of people united by common descent, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular state or territory.

— ORIGIN Latin, from nasci ‘be born’.

My common culture is english, my language is english, I live in the territory (to use your term country) know as england. My nation is England - I AM ENGLISH!

Bear in mind that the britain has been a member of the european union for approx 35 years does that mean my parents are english and i am not? did we change our nationality the day we signed up to the EU?

If we were european before then why did one of our fellow family members try to take over all of our nation 65 years ago?

Few questions

Do you believe that "in the spirit of the EU", we should give up our rebate in order to fund French farmers who recieve the majority of the EU budget therefore increasing the fiscal strain on this country

With Turkey attempting to join the EU do they stop being turkish and become european? i'm sure the % of people in Turkey who are physically in Asia would be really pleased at that or can they be both?

In light of France and The Netherlands rejecting the constitution does this mean our fellow europeans are wrong or is it a family crisis

If, and i am speaking hypothetically, one of our fellow geographical/biological accidents from another country/nation rises to power and decides to invade other countries would you oppose that and what if they came over, would you roll out the red carpet saying "come on guys, i've put the kettle on"
We ahve gone way off thread but i am intrigued by your comments. As you note i have not made this personal but i am really interested in your views

Originally posted by evildrneil
...Erm no - I like it but why on earth should I be proud about something I had no controll or input over? I am proud of the fact that I worked hard and got good degrees but proud of that accident of geography and biology not at all!...

Do you similarly have no feelings for your parents?...

...after all they are merely an accident of biology, and you had no input in choosing them either.

:confused:

Originally posted by sheffbag
is it so - based on what assumption, what is better about europe than africa (based on your theory if we are european then sub saharan is just africa) please verify your statement on "quality of life" and why europe is better than africa


There were some African students on radio 4 this morning talking very articulately about how they are pretty weary of seeing their continent portrayed as a helpless, starving dustbowl on British TV.
They commented that, yes, Africa needs aid, but Britain and the US get aid as well, and Africa, the US and Europe all depend on help and trade from each other. Trade, not charity.
One lass from Ghana commented that many parts of Africa are very westernised, but you'd not think so from the images on British TV. Kindly though, she didn't blame the British people for thinking those patronising things - after all, if that's all we see.....

Sorry - bit off topic there.

Originally posted by Sheffette
There were some African students on radio 4 this morning talking very articulately about how they are pretty weary of seeing their continent portrayed as a helpless, starving dustbowl on British TV.
They commented that, yes, Africa needs aid, but Britain and the US get aid as well, and Africa, the US and Europe all depend on help and trade from each other. Trade, not charity.
One lass from Ghana commented that many parts of Africa are very westernised, but you'd not think so from the images on British TV. Kindly though, she didn't blame the British people for thinking those patronising things - after all, if that's all we see.....

Sorry - bit off topic there.

it has slid off topic but i am interested in seeing what reply our evildr gives.

Well put young lady

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
The nation state is fast becoming a total anachronism.

Morgenthau was wrong. As one of the seminal influences on the so called 'realist' school in International Relations, and as one of the main architects of the 'power politics' perspective within this discipline, his focus was somewhat narrow and did not take sufficient account of the resilience and adaptability of the nation state to new forces in the global environment.

For example, there are now more nation states in the world than at any time in history. Moreover, all of the global governance institutions (the UN, IMF, IBRD, WTO etc) are comprised of nation states and are powerless to do anything without the agreement of the governments of nation states. The same applies to regional formations, such as the EU, NAFTA, Mercosur or NATO.

The nation state is of course changing and state borders are much more porous than hitherto. There are also of course many new types of international actor. But the state remains a very powerful force within our current global system and will probably do so for a very long time to come, not least because the shift from national to supranational loyalties shows no signs of happening on a large scale.

Originally posted by LordChaverly
[B]Morgenthau was wrong.

too early to tell.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
too early to tell.

Not if you read what Morgenthau actually wrote and the reasons he gave here for the supposed imminent demise of the nation state (he died in 1980 and his major works were written in the early post-war period). The central fallacy of the idea contained in your quote from him is that because the state can no longer defend itself (from nuclear weaponry and other technological marvels) then it can no longer fulfil its basic function and therefore is headed for the dustbin of history. But the state has many other functions. Morgenthau's obsession with power politics in International Relations showed that a way of seeing is also a way of not seeing.

Originally posted by sheffbag
is it so - based on what assumption, what is better about europe than africa (based on your theory if we are european then sub saharan is just africa) please verify your statement on "quality of life" and why europe is better than africa

Try the UNHCR Human Development Index map (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:World_HDI_%28around_2005%29.png) showing a considerably higher development index in Europe then in sub saharan Africa.

You serious? You dont feel anything when an english or british team wins or you dont feel a bit disappointed if we get beat - do you not want your fellow country men to succeed in their chosen field? do you not support your fellow biological/geographical accidents? or are you so singular that you dont care if others succeed as long as your european buddies are ok.

Completely serious - I consider sport to be played as enjoyment and personal competition not as a matter of 'national pride' or any other jingoistic purposes. Just my oppinion of course.

I refer you to your previous post saying that Europe is a political body if you wish to use a political point then i shall reply to it using political questions, (which you didnt answer)

I actually pointed out that Europe is both a political and geographical entitity and in both cases covers England

You can only be from one nationality, where you are born in that country you may be from one continent as well but you are from one country wherever the "accident" may be.

Actually it's quite possible to have multiple nationalitites - you have never met or heard of anyone with dual (or more) nationality???

My common culture is english, my language is english, I live in the territory (to use your term country) know as england. My nation is England - I AM ENGLISH!

And England is a part of Great Britain so you are also British and is a part of Europe so you are also European.

Bear in mind that the britain has been a member of the european union for approx 35 years does that mean my parents are english and i am not? did we change our nationality the day we signed up to the EU?

They were still a part of the geographical entity Europe which is rather more enduring than any political entity and so also European.

If we were european before then why did one of our fellow family members try to take over all of our nation 65 years ago?

Sibling rivalry - this was a time of conquest when the nation state was rather more important to tie people together so they would happily war with other nation states, a condition which is happily becoming less and less prevalent

Do you believe that "in the spirit of the EU", we should give up our rebate in order to fund French farmers who recieve the majority of the EU budget therefore increasing the fiscal strain on this country

Ermmm I think you will find that the CAP payouts account for 40% of the EU budget not all of which goes to French Farmers - simple maths should show that they are not recieving the majority of the EU budget!

With Turkey attempting to join the EU do they stop being turkish and become european? i'm sure the % of people in Turkey who are physically in Asia would be really pleased at that or can they be both?

Of course not - no more than when England joined the EU it stopped being English!

In light of France and The Netherlands rejecting the constitution does this mean our fellow europeans are wrong or is it a family crisis

It means that they didn't want the constitution it does not reflect on them being European!

If, and i am speaking hypothetically, one of our fellow geographical/biological accidents from another country/nation rises to power and decides to invade other countries would you oppose that and what if they came over, would you roll out the red carpet saying "come on guys, i've put the kettle on"

Yes I would oppose it - as I opposed the US led invasion of Iraq. Not in terms of a particular bit of geography being inviolate but in terms of people being able to make up their own minds about their own lives.

Originally posted by foo_fighter
Do you similarly have no feelings for your parents?...

...after all they are merely an accident of biology, and you had no input in choosing them either.

:confused:

Is pride the only feeling you can have then???

Originally posted by evildrneil
Is pride the only feeling you can have then???
So go on then, explain to us what positive feelings you do have for your country.

Originally posted by evildrneil
Try the UNHCR Human Development Index map (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:World_HDI_%28around_2005%29.png) showing a considerably higher development index in Europe then in sub saharan Africa.

Point taken and noted but you should have clarified that early

Originally posted by evildrneil
Completely serious - I consider sport to be played as enjoyment and personal competition not as a matter of 'national pride' or any other jingoistic purposes. Just my oppinion of course.

So when you take part in any group activity you dont mind if your group is beaten by another group?



IOriginally posted by evildrneil
actually pointed out that Europe is both a political and geographical entitity and in both cases covers England

But is it a nation?



Originally posted by evildrneil
Actually it's quite possible to have multiple nationalitites - you have never met or heard of anyone with dual (or more) nationality???

I always thought (and i may be wrong) that people have dual nationality for the purpose of passports. Passports based on your earlier theory is a spacious argument as it is a political item and i repeat my question form earlier, if we are all one great big entity why do i need a passport to travel 26 miles across the english channel. and dual nationality is based on your parents and your birth place is it not. In which case the biological/geographical accident is recognised as been related to another nation hence Dual nationality so it seems you cant choose your parents but you can choose their biological/geographical accident location

Originally posted by evildrneil
And England is a part of Great Britain so you are also British and is a part of Europe so you are also European.

Are you saying i am English after all?


Originally posted by evildrneil
Sibling rivalry - this was a time of conquest when the nation state was rather more important to tie people together so they would happily war with other nation states, a condition which is happily becoming less and less prevalent

Err war is becoming less prevalent? are you sure?


Originally posted by evildrneil
Ermmm I think you will find that the CAP payouts account for 40% of the EU budget not all of which goes to French Farmers - simple maths should show that they are not recieving the majority of the EU budget!

Point taken my mistake, my argument should have been do you agree that britain should give its rebate up yet the CAP which accounts for approx 40% of the entire EU budget which goes to 2% of the working population of which the French are opposed to altering as they recieve a high proportion of this? so in effect the French are saying Give up your subsidy/rebate but we arent going to give ours up?



Originally posted by evildrneil
Of course not - no more than when England joined the EU it stopped being English!

So are the people in turkey going to be European, Asian or do we draw a line in the Bosphorus? (i believe it is the bosphorus that seperates the europe and asian sides isnt it, please correct if wrong)

Originally posted by evildrneil
It means that they didn't want the constitution it does not reflect on them being European!

Why? if the European Union is a political entity and people wish to come out of it then if it ends up collasping (hypothetically) does that mean they are not european or do you withdraw your argument basing it on the political landscape


Originally posted by evildrneil
Yes I would oppose it - as I opposed the US led invasion of Iraq. Not in terms of a particular bit of geography being inviolate but in terms of people being able to make up their own minds about their own lives.

So if your neighbour was abusing their partner/child and you knew about it you would do nothing? after all they are only living their own lives? You all right Jack?

Originally posted by Deavon

What does this victory say to us today?


It was a complete waste of life and ammunition, - the French have been kicking the sand in our faces for the last fifty years :D

What are we going to do about it ? :confused:

Originally posted by Greybeard
It was a complete waste of life and ammunition, - the French have been kicking the sand in our faces for the last fifty years :D

What are we going to do about it ? :confused:

Which takes us back to the original thread, show them who won.

And - In this next six-month period, carry on showing them.
No EU constitution, unless it is Written from a British point of view.
It would appear, from the weight of their social responsibilities, that France and Germany are to become the weak old men of Europe, perhaps they should unite, and add afurther burden onto the budget. Germany has had to count the cost of rescuing East Germany from the communist Utopia.
France is having to placate its outdated agricultural population.
We have had to stand by, and lose our fishing industry to European legislation, Our meat products have been subjected to repeated blockades and bans, our small farms and family businesses have had to combine or sell out, all due to the ridiculous homoginisation of the euro fanatics.
Its time the roles were reversed.
I wish we had a Maggie Thatcher (Maybe Anne Widdicome?) or even George Galloway - - to tell them the way it is going to be, or just let them sink.

Originally posted by foo_fighter
So go on then, explain to us what positive feelings you do have for your country.

Do you mean for my country or my parents? The two are entirely different cases!

Yes , the Germans seem to forget that a great deal of their , "economic miracle " , after the 2nd . World War came from the Marshall Plan , i.e. America ------and the traditionally poorest quarter of their country ,.ie. East Germany was , "looked after " by the Russians.
France and ourselves also benefitted from the Marshal Plan but I'm sure we had to bear a bigger brunt of war-time costs than France , as we stood virtually alone , except for America for six years. [We could hardly expect help from Russia !]
All these things are easily forgotten , when discussing the problems of Europe. In any case , it seems ludicrous to me to expect Europe , with countries from so many different backgrounds and peoples , with wildly different traditions , to suddenly act as one in a spirit of brotherly love. No wonder they are having problems ! Can anyone think of one example from History , where 25 -30 countries , otherwise independent , different languages , different histories , different religions , different cultures and even different currencies , have voluntarily acted together in a sustained spirit of co-operation /
Cloud -cuckoo Land !

Originally posted by evildrneil
Do you mean for my country or my parents? The two are entirely different cases!

err the question was in the quote? for your country

Originally posted by sheffbag
Point taken and noted but you should have clarified that early

I think you would have to go a LONG way to find anyone claiming that the standard of living in sub-saharan africa is better than the standard of licing in Europe!

So when you take part in any group activity you dont mind if your group is beaten by another group?

This is personalising things rather more - I prefer to win in what I am doing thats perfectly normal ego! When watching a game of any type I wuld prefer to see the better player/team/whatever win.

But is it a nation?

taking the definition of a nation to be: "An organized geopolitical unit" then yes.

I always thought (and i may be wrong) that people have dual nationality for the purpose of passports. Passports based on your earlier theory is a spacious argument as it is a political item and i repeat my question form earlier, if we are all one great big entity why do i need a passport to travel 26 miles across the english channel. and dual nationality is based on your parents and your birth place is it not. In which case the biological/geographical accident is recognised as been related to another nation hence Dual nationality so it seems you cant choose your parents but you can choose their biological/geographical accident location

You can't travel without a passport because Britain is not a party to the Schengen Agreement which abolishes internal borders within the EU - were you in France then you could travel through Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden and even some non EU members without the need for a passport.

Dual nationality is typically when your parents hold different nationality - though of course you still have no controll over their (and hence your) nationality.

Are you saying i am English after all?

I never said you weren't - I said that as England is part of Great Britain you are also British and as it is also part of Eurpoe that you are also European!

Err war is becoming less prevalent? are you sure?

The last world war was 1939 - 1945, before that the last world war was 1914 - 1918 and before that the last major conflict was arguably the Boer war 1899 - 1902 or the Zulu wars 1879 so in the 66 years from 1879 to 1945 there have been 4 major conflicts in the 60 years since 1945 there has been (arguably) one major conflict in Vietnam though with many smaller conflicts typically confined to single countries or tribal groups.

Point taken my mistake, my argument should have been do you agree that britain should give its rebate up yet the CAP which accounts for approx 40% of the entire EU budget which goes to 2% of the working population of which the French are opposed to altering as they recieve a high proportion of this? so in effect the French are saying Give up your subsidy/rebate but we arent going to give ours up?

I think that the CAP needs serious restructuring anyway as the largest chunk of it is given to companies such as Tate and Lyle (£127m+) and Nestle (£11.6m+) who then cause serious problems in the developing world by dumping their heavily subsidised products on the open market. The whole EU funding needs a serious look and I think turning it into a them v us argument doesn't really help.

So are the people in turkey going to be European, Asian or do we draw a line in the Bosphorus? (i believe it is the bosphorus that seperates the europe and asian sides isnt it, please correct if wrong)

You pays your money and you takes your choice - what do you think is more important the geography or the geoplitical entity?

Why? if the European Union is a political entity and people wish to come out of it then if it ends up collasping (hypothetically) does that mean they are not european or do you withdraw your argument basing it on the political landscape

Rejection of the EU constitution does not imply wanting to leave the EU. I'm fairly pro-european but if a vote came up on whether we should accept the EU constitution as it stands I would have to vote no - not because I want out of Europe but because the current constitution is such an impenetrable tome that even the politicians and lawyers have problems working out what it means that I couldn't in good conscience say yes to it!

So if your neighbour was abusing their partner/child and you knew about it you would do nothing? after all they are only living their own lives? You all right Jack?

Again a rather specious argument - and an entirely different case to the invasion of one country by another to impose its will. By living in one community you accept the laws and norms of that community (e.g. that you do not abuse your partner child) however the example I gave wasn't acting in accord with the laws and norms of any comunity but simply the imposition of a larger countries will over another.

Originally posted by sheffbag
err the question was in the quote? for your country

However the original wuestion posed was about my feelings for my parents which has now suddenly changed to country which are two entirely different entities...

Originally posted by evildrneil
However the original wuestion posed was about my feelings for my parents which has now suddenly changed to country which are two entirely different entities...
OK, we started with you stating:

“...Erm no - I like it but why on earth should I be proud about something I had no controll or input over? I am proud of the fact that I worked hard and got good degrees but proud of that accident of geography and biology not at all!...”

to which I asked the question:

“Do you similarly have no feelings for your parents?...

...after all they are merely an accident of biology, and you had no input in choosing them either.”

And you replied:

“Is pride the only feeling you can have then???”

I then asked you to:

“…explain to us what positive feelings you do have for your country.

It’s not that complicated is it?

Both your country, and your parents are an “accident of biology” to which you “had no control or input over”, so what feelings do you have for one accident (your country), and why are they so different (if indeed they are) to those you feel for the other accident (your parents).

Originally posted by sheffco
Which takes us back to the original thread, show them who won.


But everyone that was involved in the conflict is dead. There's no one to show. Unless you want to show the modern day French public that Britain won then so therefore would do again. Is that what you'd like to do?

Originally posted by evildrneil
However the original wuestion posed was about my feelings for my parents which has now suddenly changed to country which are two entirely different entities...

A bit difficult to understand, Wot Wiv Der Spelling.
As a very much old bloke, I think he is saying that he is happy where he is, because at the moment, it's a good place to be.
Any country would do, as long as it offered a degree of comfort. Parents could choose their own location, but he would be off like a shot, if standards were lowered.
When it comes to any conflict of "Stand and be counted" type decision. Well, it's better to be on the side of the winner.
There have been a few of these types in history. The chosen winner didn't win, and the clingons got hung as traitors, fifth colomnists etc.
I wonder if the proposed ID cards will need the type of "Positive vetting" that used to proceed anyone taking a sensitive job in the civil service, or in most of the armed forces?
It weeds out, or marks the card of sussy wussy people.

Originally posted by Fareast
In any case , it seems ludicrous to me to expect Europe , with countries from so many different backgrounds and peoples , with wildly different traditions , to suddenly act as one in a spirit of brotherly love. No wonder they are having problems ! Can anyone think of one example from History , where 25 -30 countries , otherwise independent , different languages , different histories , different religions , different cultures and even different currencies , have voluntarily acted together in a sustained spirit of co-operation /
Cloud -cuckoo Land !

The very same thing had occured to me as well, and I have my misgivings about this whole EU thing. I personally don't feel it will ever work the way it's supposed to.

When I was in high school, I took a senior lifesaving course. The very first thing they taught us was to never, EVER let someone who appeared to be drowning get their hands on you. Throw them a rope, a life ring, a seat cushion, but don't get close enough for them to grab you. In their desperation, they'll try to use YOU as a ladder to climb out and you'll both drown.

IMHO, the countries who really want this EU thing are having trouble swimming.

You should all be proud of being English. Your country has a long and glorious history, nothing like our short history in America. Be proud of who you are.

And it wouldn't hurt to remind those hoity toity French just who kicked their b*tts, either.

:) Sierra

Originally posted by Andy78
But everyone that was involved in the conflict is dead. There's no one to show. Unless you want to show the modern day French public that Britain won then so therefore would do again. Is that what you'd like to do?

Not necessarily in the shooting and killing mode, but just to show, that the spirit is still there.
A couple of posts have mentioned the facts about DeGaulle resenting the English, and the French Politicians trying to manourvre the pole position etc. Just to point out, that when it really comes down to the wire. The French never win. Providing we have the people in position that can show the fighting spirit. Something a bit lacking in some of the people around today. Unless you count thugs and hooligans.

Originally posted by sheffco
Not necessarily in the shooting and killing mode, but just to show, that the spirit is still there.
A couple of posts have mentioned the facts about DeGaulle resenting the English, and the French Politicians trying to manourvre the pole position etc. Just to point out, that when it really comes down to the wire. The French never win. Providing we have the people in position that can show the fighting spirit. Something a bit lacking in some of the people around today. Unless you count thugs and hooligans.

When were France last tested? More to the point when were we? Bit of a moot point anyway, because we're not likely to be going to war with France. So I come back to the fact of the matter that any differences are political. Which means it's for our elected politicians to deal with. Britain winning a war hundreds of years ago, doesn't come into it. You can wave your flag in their face and sing 'We won the war'; it doesn't make a jot of difference. So, should we remind the people of France that Britain won the war? Why, what's the point?

Incidentally I take it you're just talking about wars when you say that France never win. Just need to clarify that point.

Originally posted by Andy78

Incidentally I take it you're just talking about wars when you say that France never win. Just need to clarify that point. [/B]

France never win at anything - eventually. Tested?? Well they usually choose to take the moral high ground. Mainly to protect their financial interests.
Iran - Pakistan - Iraq - Africa - they have Companies heftily involved in them all. Highly agricultural at home, the income comes from interests overseas.
If you take tested to mean in the military sense, apart from a couple of insurrections in former colonies, it leaves a long sequence of losses, walk overs and surrenders.
The Gallic shrug means to be able to accept defeat with arrogance.
Unfortunately, a succession of minor political victories in the biased votes of the EU, have given them the impression that they are the natural leaders.
I just hope that there are enough spirited politicians here in britain to once again show them where they really belong.

Originally posted by sheffco
France never win at anything - eventually. Tested?? Well they usually choose to take the moral high ground. Mainly to protect their financial interests.
Iran - Pakistan - Iraq - Africa - they have Companies heftily involved in them all. Highly agricultural at home, the income comes from interests overseas.
If you take tested to mean in the military sense, apart from a couple of insurrections in former colonies, it leaves a long sequence of losses, walk overs and surrenders.
The Gallic shrug means to be able to accept defeat with arrogance.
Unfortunately, a succession of minor political victories in the biased votes of the EU, have given them the impression that they are the natural leaders.
I just hope that there are enough spirited politicians here in Britain to once again show them where they really belong.

My point about France and Britain not being tested recently, meant that we can't compare military might today, based on what happened hundreds of years ago. Nor should we.

Once again, I point out that we cannot talk about France in the general sense including it's citizens. Politicians yes, but shouting about the whole of the French population is ridiculous. Reminding the citizens of France that Britain won a war hundreds of years ago is as irrelevant as modern day romans reminding us of the Roman invasion of Britain.

On the point about France never winning anything, I could name several things they have won in different sports. The Football World cup being a start. I don't really care much for this argument, but brought it up as people have previously drawn parallels between sport and war.

France withdrew from NATO - - thereby sitting quietly on the sidelines, while selling missiles and aircraft to countries that Britain eventually came in conflict with. All ways round - - Mirages to Israel - (just to quieten the middle east pacifists).
Providing protection for the original Ayotolla Quemini, providing the flight back to Iran for him.
Background strategis seem to be their bag.
Football - - I don't really count as a victory, but they are acknowledged as the dirtiest team in Rugby. Maybe Argentenia, another of their allies.

Originally posted by sheffco
France withdrew from NATO - - thereby sitting quietly on the sidelines, while selling missiles and aircraft to countries that Britain eventually came in conflict with. All ways round - - Mirages to Israel - (just to quieten the middle east pacifists).
Providing protection for the original Ayotolla Quemini, providing the flight back to Iran for him.
Background strategis seem to be their bag.
Football - - I don't really count as a victory, but they are acknowledged as the dirtiest team in Rugby. Maybe Argentenia, another of their allies.

I'm getting tired of this now. It's not like we've never sold weapons to other hostile countries.

Regardless of what you count as a victory in sport is never the less a victory. As I'm sure you would remind us if England won something by being dirty or lucky.

Your tired Andy?- - - - I have to take a strong sedative.
I wouldn't really go into all the times I have been involved with the French in Central Africa and the middle East. Put it down to experience, which is what I'm talking about.
Match it if you can.
Otherwise - - purr.

Originally posted by sheffco
Your tired Andy?- - - - I have to take a strong sedative.
I wouldn't really go into all the times I have been involved with the French in Central Africa and the middle East. Put it down to experience, which is what I'm talking about.
Match it if you can.
Otherwise - - purr.

The French or the French Military? I hope that you wouldn't equate the population of Britain with the British Military. You know as well as I that they are totally different things (thank God).

Funnily enough I have plenty of experience of France outside of a military perspective. To save typing the same things again, please go and read my previous posts on this area.

Enjoy your sedative, wont you? I'm sure it'll help curb your aggression.

Originally posted by sheffco
France withdrew from NATO - - thereby sitting quietly on the sidelines, while selling missiles and aircraft to countries that Britain eventually came in conflict with. All ways round - - Mirages to Israel - (just to quieten the middle east pacifists).
Providing protection for the original Ayotolla Quemini, providing the flight back to Iran for him.
Background strategis seem to be their bag.
Football - - I don't really count as a victory, but they are acknowledged as the dirtiest team in Rugby. Maybe Argentenia, another of their allies.

Didn't the UK also sell arms to Argentina? Wasp Helicopters, The US certainly did - as it was an A4 Skyhawk that did for an unfortunate Harrier. Had the US not delivered a shipment of AIM-9 all aspect IR missiles, those Skyhawks would have been a lot more trouble.

Of course only a few years ago 75% of British defence exports were bound for Saudi Arabia. A well known bastion of liberal democracy.

And in 1881 the American Hiram Maxim (http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blgun.htm) sold the machine gun to British AND German govt's.
Business is business - war is war.
200 years ago We still kicked Frenchies ass - you can't deny it.

I thought it was pc gone even crazier that on the TV commentary with the Trafalgar re-enactment the British were being called the 'Red Team' & the Frenchies were being called 'The Blue Team' - so as not to upset Frenchie. :roll: Is there nothing sacred (even history) that the pc brigade will not alter to appease jonny foreigner?

OOHH! Phan, straight in with the facts. I can hardly rant against the british, can I?
After my High Tea, of roast lamb with sausage and thyme stuffing, yorkshires to die for, with butternut sqash, roast potato's, broccolli and carrots, accompanied with a delicate rosemary scented gravy, I was feeling benevolent, so I retired.
All self cooked. The scotch helped too - - otherwise, I may have tucked into a pacifist or two.
I thought most of the forum knew that I equate most things with the British Military. Beat the drum, wave the flag, been there have the T shirt, dun it.
Just a Grumpy old man now, who blames most of the problems with the younger generation, on the peace lovin' left wing infiltration of the education system. Banning competition, and promoting a "No Blame"Culture. A hands off attitude just appears to invite attack.
Britain IS a collection of islands, thankfully cut of from the continent, and it should stay that way.
I don't even regard the French as any kind of military nation, but having spent 30 years or more in some kind of contact with them work and competition wise, I do consider them to be sneaky back stabbers, arrogant beyond their capabilities.
Cheers
Sheff
PS - - Got a Hang-over.

Originally posted by sheffco
I don't even regard the French as any kind of military nation, but having spent 30 years or more in some kind of contact with them work and competition wise, I do consider them to be sneaky back stabbers, arrogant beyond their capabilities.


Sounds like you've just described the British forces or any other military force for that matter. Maybe there's a link somewhere? I do find it amusing that you can only describe things from a military point of view (yes I know, you have the T-shirt). The outside world is a bit different to the sheltered forces world though, and the same principles don't really apply.

Originally posted by sheffco
France withdrew from NATO - - thereby sitting quietly on the sidelines, while selling missiles and aircraft to countries that Britain eventually came in conflict with. You what ? France is very much still in NATO (or OTAN as they call it).
It's on the security council ;)

Originally posted by Captain_Scarlet
You what ? France is very much still in NATO (or OTAN as they call it).
It's on the security council ;)

They must have snuck back in - - I remember huge arguements in De Gaulles time, about who really ran things, and France went off in a huff. Did things there own way, safe in the knowledge that someone would protect them from the Big Bad Red Wolf.

Andy - - - As I said, the 30 years or so were not military ones on my part, but having worked in Algeria, Camaroon, Tchad, Niger, and the Central African Republic, I was in very frequent contact with the Frogs. Ribbet Ribbet types in the jungle, and back stabbers in politics and the office. Having worked for, and alongside French Companies, I have a vast store of annecdotes describing their mercinary and devious tactics.

Your also on a VERY slippery slope complaining about the French selling arms - currently the number one arms seller (by a LOOOOOOOOOOOONG way!) is the US followed by the UK who's arms exports are worth roughly double the exports of France.

But they Wiiiiiish -- -

Just to put matters straight , [I hope !] , I don't think France is a member of NATO now.
The Security Council is part of the United Nations , nothing to do with NATO , unless NATO has got its own security council !

Originally posted by Fareast
Just to put matters straight , [I hope !] , I don't think France is a member of NATO now.
The Security Council is part of the United Nations , nothing to do with NATO , unless NATO has got its own security council !

List of NATO members here:

http://www.nato.int/structur/countries.htm

In 1966, France pulled its troops out of the NATO military command, though it remained a NATO member.

Should we remind the french who won??
Short answer - Nope.

What would be the point?

A visit to Waterloo is interesting. They have a large museum there commemorating the battle. However, one could be forgiven for getting the impression that the French won.

Originally posted by sheffco
They must have snuck back in - - I remember huge arguements in De Gaulles time, about who really ran things, and France went off in a huff.well you were missinformed. France is very much in the 'Organisation du Traité de l'Atlantique Nord'.

It is also at that date the France declared that no country will maintain military bases within its borders (apart form beeing invaded héhéhé) and will not broadcast any type of signal from within.

This is why there are no US bases in France, although some bases have retained their american name (eg: Base 105 at Evreux wher ei did my military service).


Just to prove that if you don't know, you'd better keep your mouth shut ...


And before you continue slurring, I don't care who won... I'm binational, so either way, I'm a winner ;)

Originally posted by ANGELUS
Should we remind the french who won??
Short answer - Nope.

What would be the point?

To summarise: The point is for us to show that we're the biggest, strongest and generally show 'them' that our dad is bigger than theirs.

Everyone in France is arrogant so we need to slap them all in the face with a wet kipper to remind them that we are the greatest. I love this point. Go back and read some of the comments made by the lovely British folk on this thread and bask in the irony. But, it's OK for us to be arrogant apparently, because we are the greatest.

If you don't buy into this, then you are weak and don't deserve to live or pay taxes on this island. Because strength is measured by your ability to shout 'we are the champions!' the loudest and appreciate the glory of war.:suspect:

Originally posted by Captain_Scarlet
well you were missinformed. France is very much in the 'Organisation du Traité de l'Atlantique Nord'.

It is also at that date the France declared that no country will maintain military bases within its borders (apart form beeing invaded héhéhé) and will not broadcast any type of signal from within.

This is why there are no US bases in France, although some bases have retained their american name (eg: Base 105 at Evreux wher ei did my military service).


Just to prove that if you don't know, you'd better keep your mouth shut ...


And before you continue slurring, I don't care who won... I'm binational, so either way, I'm a winner ;)

I do remember the little spat with DeGaulle, The European headquarters was in Paris, called SHAPE, or something like that. DeGaulle postured and posed, and threww his toys out of the cot, so they dismantled the whole internal structure, and just left the shell of the building.
In my experience, a typical french attitude, if I can't be the boss, I don't want to belong.
Bit like me really - I don't want to belong to anything with the french connection.
You can disagree with my views, but I'm afraid you can't tell me to keep my mouth shut.
Bi-national meaning Brit/Frog? Where is your residence, or have you bought a cheap french farmhouse?

Originally posted by sheffco
Bi-national meaning Brit/Frog? Where is your residence, or have you bought a cheap french farmhouse? I wouldn't be on here if I weren' tliving in Sheffield, and I'm rosbif/frog ;) And I don't own a farmhouse in France, I don't own eff all in France actually... Apart from a car, stored in a basement used by the sister (if she buggers it she's dead).

But what's better ? Beeing french/British and understand the problems oif either countries and their concerns, or beeing french and thinkin english are 'Breeteesh Peegs' or english and thinkin 'Why those continental flat heads'.
I'm happy to say having lived in both places half my life, I have acquired a blazé feeling and all this petiness is very small.

but that's typically british isn't that, stick your two fingers up and hide on the other side of the pond.

God bless the pub, the cuppa tea, the expensive buses, the rubbish trains and the "I don't care it's not my business".


EDIT: Have a read of this: OTAN stuff (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/actu/article.asp?ART=47734)

Here's a little more ammunition for all the Francophobes....

An international panel of judges has declared a sparkling wine produced in Sussex to be the best in the world :D

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1517604,00.html

No biggest and strongest about it, just a determination not to be invaded by the backdoor policies, as demonstrated by the french people saying no.
The electorate decided that they wanted to preserve the status quo, and I think britain should do the same.
I'm astounded at Blair's resolution in opposing Chirac, but I hope he keeps it up.
As president of the union, by rote, not election, I hope he works to evict france and germany. (Dream on sheff).

Originally posted by sheffco
No biggest and strongest about it, just a determination not to be invaded by the backdoor policies, as demonstrated by the french people saying no.
The electorate decided that they wanted to preserve the status quo, and I think britain should do the same.
I'm astounded at Blair's resolution in opposing Chirac, but I hope he keeps it up.
As president of the union, by rote, not election, I hope he works to evict france and germany. (Dream on sheff). Saying no is the way forward, both for Britain and France alike.

Saying is the best way to save our interests and make sure WE do what is best for us, not some dingle from Brussels making a decision for us...

I hope that the EU collapses, and if it doesn't I hope that all the countries that are in recession following the laughable introduction of the Euro get booted out.
I WANT France to get booted out of Europe, not to give you the chance to take the p155 just a bit more, but because you're stupid enough to think the EU has anything good to offer.

As long as Bliar and Chirac hate each, the better it is to me, it's because I'm from both countries that I think we ought to kiss each other's youknowwhat. I want each country to be independant just as they once were.
at least France & Britian have a short history of friendship, the only thing Germany has done for the past 150 years is take revenge on the French European supremacy of the Napoleonic era and invading 3 times (yes do not forget 1870).

Why do you think everyone drives on the right hand side on the continent BTW ? Why also do you think the forkl is to the left of the plate, and the knife to the right ?

Say No !

Originally posted by Captain_Scarlet
Saying no is the way forward, both for Britain and France alike.

Why do you think everyone drives on the right hand side on the continent BTW ? Why also do you think the forkl is to the left of the plate, and the knife to the right ?

Say No !

I presume it's something to do with them being a majority of lefties. Personally, I eat American style, with the fork in my right hand, with my cooking, the meat can be cut with a fork.

Something to do with the Code Napolienne, could also be the reason. Bit like the meridian of Paris being the basis of Lambert's projection maps, The french system of 400 grads in a circle, which explains the paucity of great french navigators. I think the above had a bit to do with the french differences with nato troops. ergo they never seemed to be in the area when there was any action.
While working in Algeria, as a surveyor, I had great problems with the conical orthomorphic projections of Lamberts mathmatical elipsoid. I could never get it to tie in with the UTM grid which is accepted worldwide. With the advent of early GPS instruments, Lambert was proved to have got his sums wrong.
By about 400 metres.
Glad you don't have a farmhouse in france, I sometimes wonder if there are a legion of brits out there claiming subsidies.
And as a final gripe, I am far from stupid. Grumpy old man would describe me better. (Hic).

Originally posted by sheffco
I presume it's something to do with them being a majority of lefties. Personally, I eat American style, with the fork in my right hand, with my cooking, the meat can be cut with a fork.

Something to do with the Code Napolienne, could also be the reason. Bit like the meridian of Paris being the basis of Lambert's projection maps, The french system of 400 grads in a circle, which explains the paucity of great french navigators. I think the above had a bit to do with the french differences with nato troops. ergo they never seemed to be in the area when there was any action.
While working in Algeria, as a surveyor, I had great problems with the conical orthomorphic projections of Lamberts mathmatical elipsoid. I could never get it to tie in with the UTM grid which is accepted worldwide. With the advent of early GPS instruments, Lambert was proved to have got his sums wrong.
By about 400 metres.
Glad you don't have a farmhouse in france, I sometimes wonder if there are a legion of brits out there claiming subsidies.
And as a final gripe, I am far from stupid. Grumpy old man would describe me better. (Hic). Good read.

for the record it is Socialists, Comminists, UDF & FN alike who oppose the EU now as well as the Euro. And I'd rather shoot myself in the leg B4 I vote left ;)

and Brits do own 25% of the houses from where I come form, Normandie, which is very touristic. And I can shout at tourists coz neither my trade or of my parents have to do with tourism, so I can moan about traffic jams, slow cars, increased prices...
I don't have a farmhouse, I do have a large house in the suburbs of random town. and Brits don't claim subsidies, they pay council tax ;) Which is all good for the french municipalities (village/town/city councils)

No comments on Lambert then, or was it all a gallic plot to remain aloof and individual?

Originally posted by sheffco
No comments on Lambert then, or was it all a gallic plot to remain aloof and individual? well I haven't studied Lambert's prjection, so I can't comment. But if he's worng, well too bad for him, I'm not going to defend him for the sake of !

Mod. Note

Ummm....can we return to Trafalgar please?

Though bearding the perfidious French is an estimable occupation for any Englishman - even half-breeds like me - but we're now heading in to contemporary events rather than historic moments.

Cheers

Joe

The equivelant of a Gallic shrug to me!
The usual result of a frenchman being shown his errors. I had the envious task of working with some of them, Belgians being included. Must admit, the better ones came from Normandie and Breton. Though some of them could be a bit "Poids Lourd" apologies for spelling. One breton came back from leave after blowing up a TV mast, and was amazed that he wasn't a local hero! It was the local one, so the community went without TV for a while.
He tried though

I'm not allowed to carry on anyway, "She Has Spoken", and I have to eat my lunch.
Switch the topic to Europe, and should we join, if there is one.

As an 18 year veteran of the Royal Navy, I heartily agree that we should celebrate Trafalgar and that one armed, one eyed b--------d who stands on top of that pole in London. He stands as perhaps our greatest hero along with Drake and Wellington.
I hate the word irrelevant when it comes to history. What is relevant today? Tom Cruises romances? Jacko's madness? George Bush's impeachment?
What needs to be understood is not only the victories of the RN, but that the world owes its gratitude to sailors across the centuries who opened it up so that you can fry a tomato with your breakfast, or come over to Orlando and spend all your money. Most of those sailors were serving men of the Royal Navy.
By the way I spent most of my service aboard carriers, especially Ark Royal. We managed to land most of the time. The French were'nt very good at it, the Americans were.

I remember the Ark on it's last visit to Malta. (On it's way home to be sadly retired). My boys visited the ship, and had signed photo's of aircraft taking off, though I can't remember which type. The ladies of Strait Street flocked to meet their hero's.
There is a plaque on one of the Auberges in Valletta, stating that Napoleon resided there for a number of eventful days. I think that was just before another eventful battle in Nelson's career. The Nile I think. We should celebrate that one too.
Trafalgar Day was as much to remember the death of Nelson, as for the victory. Another good Naval tradition, he was carried home pickled.

I remember my last time aboard Ark too. I was stationed at the RNAS Halfar in 1961 when she arrived with several of my friends aboard. I was invited into the chiefs mess along with my wife and 2 year old son. Some of the tiffies took my son away and I didn't see him for hours. In the meantime the rum flowed like water, and in the end I fell into the ships cutter with my son in my arms. He was in much better shape than I.
My last commission aboard, I was a member of 800 squadron flying Seahawks. She also carried Fairey Gannets, and Douglas Skyraiders, as well as Wessex helicopters. She would end her days with McDonnel phantoms.

Having read all these posts, it is clear to me that the idea of a USE, modelled on the constitution of the United States
, is a pipe dream. Apart from that little conflagration in 1861 to 1865, which some are still fighting by the way, the states get on reasonably well together. We have no official language, though obviously English is the unofficial form, and we sort of like it that way. We don't need the sort of problems enforced bilingualism can cause. Look at Canada or Belgium.
Three days from now we'll be celebrating a victory too, with marching bands, lots of burgers and hot dogs, and fireworks.
Only very occasionally someone mentions that we brits got our asses whooped, my stock reply is that you won cos you were us.

Forget Trafalgar - can we remind them who got the Olympics???