well do you, or dont you?

Originally posted by Warreng
well do you, or dont you?

I don't.

I do believe in evolition and that in the past, societies and civilisations who were more focused due to a belief structure making their subjects work towards an "afterlife" had an evolutionary edge over others who didn't.

And that's it in a nutshell.

No....................

Big G god (i.e. christian god) or small g god (i.e. non specified deity)?

I do.

I don`t go to church but I still believe.

God, higher power, the spirit, I believe there is something.

I'm not sure at the moment. If you'd asked me a couple of years ago then it would've been a definate yes. Now I'm leaning towards No. :confused:

wrt all religions: At the moment I'm pondering self-indoctrination
wrt Christianity: 'having a personal relationship with God'

monotheistic god:

if god is all powerful can he make a stone so heavy that he cannot lift it?

if he can, then he is not all powerful

if he cannot then he is not all powerful

if he is not all powerful, should we consider him to be a god? or merely a master?

by what provenance does he derive his authority as king of kings?

If there is a god he is obviously something of a bugger, so if I did believe in him I wouldn't choose to worship him.

M

I don't believe in God in the traditional sense. I like to think there's a spiritual existance that's around me - forces of nature and the elements. I think if God existed, mankind would seek to find a way to destroy it.

I like the expression that Dave Allen the comedian uses: 'May your God go with you'.

i believe in God

Originally posted by elf
God, higher power, the spirit, I believe there is something.
If not, can't be explained.

What's his surname?

Originally posted by nickswfc
i believe in God

If your a Wednesday fan I can well understand why :P

Personally I don't believe in God. Although.. There must be somebody up there giving me some good fortune that I have had in the last couple of years..

Not until i meet him/her/it.

I believe in God, and I do go to church :)

I believe in God, although I haven't been to church for a while!:o

No, definately not. I do however respect the beliefs of other people.

Can't understand people thanking Him/Her for sparing them during disasters, instead of giving Him/Her a gob full for CAUSING the disaster.

If there is a God, he must be a sick bugger!

no, there is no evidence to suggest a deities existance. And i don't need to provide evidence for the none existance of something (for a start it's impossible and secondly, has anyone ever proved fairies don't exist? If not, does that mean you believe in them?)

Yes, believe in God, don't regularly attend church but do have a broadly Christian set of spiritual beliefs.

Originally posted by RoyalRegular
What's his surname?

I've heard it's Johnson. God Johnson but that was from a mate who isn't that reliable. Father Jeffers was his name.

I believe in God - or should I say I feel him near.


I've got a mate who believes in god (just in case there is one!)
Thats faith for yer

No I do not believe in the christian god, nor any other god or goddess or diety you can imagine or create.

Moon Maide THE goddess ;)

i dont believe in god and secondly ithink religion is the biggest culprit 4 trouble in the world. as 4 going 2 church i read a while ago that 80% of church goers were from upper class areas which 2 me suggests a social thing more than any religous beliefs.

Originally posted by Warreng
well do you, or dont you?

I'm flexible on that one ....

Define what you mean by "god" please !?

Further more ...

I abstain from the activity of "believing" ... and NO ... that does not make me an athiest or anything else.

I *feel* an all pervading 'spirit force' that moves through all things and is contained in all things.

I have no need to label it (or myself).

God is the little boy playing the computer game that we are all characters in, 1,000,000 years in the future when A.I. reaches very high levels.

Think that sounds silly? Think about it more carefully and it's infinitely more likely than God in the traditional sense.

I dont believe in god at all. The human brain and its thought process is so complex and there are so many things going round in our minds that we cant really work life out so we have to have some mythical being to explain everything for us and to sort us out when we are stressed or confused. I suppose its a good idea in theory. Also being a species that knows that life comes to an end can probably explain the reason why such a thing was invented.

One thing in defence of god though - when people say how can there be a god is so and so terrible happened. Im SURE that can be explained by that god gave man free will so what we do is our own doing, not gods. He cant just give people free will and then just take it away when he thinks someone is going to do something stupid or what would be the point in giving it us in the first place!

Although i dont believe in him/it, it does annoy me when atheists use that argument.

What about natural disasters like earthquakes and volcanos then? They're not man-made and if God created the earth, why did he create imperfections that would result in suffering?

Originally posted by kittykat
I dont believe in god at all. The human brain and its thought process is so complex and there are so many things going round in our minds that we cant really work life out so we have to have some mythical being to explain everything for us and to sort us out when we are stressed or confused. I suppose its a good idea in theory. Also being a species that knows that life comes to an end can probably explain the reason why such a thing was invented.

One thing in defence of god though - when people say how can there be a god is so and so terrible happened. Im SURE that can be explained by that god gave man free will so what we do is our own doing, not gods. He cant just give people free will and then just take it away when he thinks someone is going to do something stupid or what would be the point in giving it us in the first place!

Although i dont believe in him/it, it does annoy me when atheists use that argument.

How can you defend something you claim doesn't exist?

You did put your finger on it though: we are the only species with an awareness of death and its implications. Being inherently cowardly, we don't like the prospect of that. Therefore we've dreamed up the concept of god, religion et al to make us feel better about death.

Personally I still think Eric Clapton is God - despite some dodgy albums in the 80s (older members will understand that one).

I don't believe in religions interpretation of god, a vengeful, judgemental god. However I do believe in god, an energy that creates constantly, be it negative or positive. In our daily lives we have the power to choose for ourselves which it will be.

Originally posted by mojoworking
Personally I still think Eric Clapton is God - despite some dodgy albums in the 80s (older members will understand that one).

No way !!

Jimi Hendrix blows him away ...

One thing that amuses me is ... why does everyone refer to 'god' as 'he' ... do they expect some old guy with a white beard !?

Originally posted by Jamie
No way !!

Jimi Hendrix blows him away ...

One thing that amuses me is ... why does everyone refer to 'god' as 'he' ... do they expect some old guy with a white beard !?

God is whatever and whoever you think.
He/she/it has no preferences and we have free will, but I know what you mean.

i think that know one knows if God exists or not until they find out or dont find out, because there is no proof and anything is possible so its possible for God to exist or to not exist, and anything is possible because you cant prove that somethign is impossible....

Originally posted by Warreng
i think that know one knows if God exists or not until they find out or dont find out, because there is no proof and anything is possible so its possible for God to exist or to not exist, and anything is possible because you cant prove that somethign is impossible....



What???????

I remember a play on TV last year about the second coming.

Basically God tries to get to grips with the devil and all his little demons, but ends up realising that if God didn't exist, neither would the Devil.


God kills himself for the love of Man.





That was an amazing thought to be left with.

I remember seeing that,it was with Christopher Eccleston who is a brilliant actor,it left me thinking about it for a while after it was finished.

Originally posted by Jamie
No way !!

Jimi Hendrix blows him away ...

One thing that amuses me is ... why does everyone refer to 'god' as 'he' ... do they expect some old guy with a white beard !?

You may be right, but people didn't write "Hendrix is God" on the walls in London circa 1966. Plus Eric has Jimi well beaten on longevity.

Re. your second point. Alan Partridge may have the answer: God (if he exists) could well be a gas

Originally posted by Warreng
well do you, or dont you?


Ask yourself one question !

Is there a Universe ?

Yes there is, we can see it !

We can feel it !

RIGHT !

Is it a Miracale ?

Yes it is !

You've answered you own question !!!

Originally posted by halevan
Ask yourself one question !

Is there a Universe ?

Yes there is, we can see it !

We can feel it !

RIGHT !

Is it a Miracale ?

Yes it is !

You've answered you own question !!!

Erm....are you extracting the urine?

Originally posted by t020
What about natural disasters like earthquakes and volcanos then? They're not man-made and if God created the earth, why did he create imperfections that would result in suffering?
You seem to be of the belief that if there is a God, he/she must be perfect.

Q: Do I believe in God?
A: I believe in the possibility that there may be a God.

Originally posted by Sidla
You seem to be of the belief that if there is a God, he/she must be perfect.



What's the point in one otherwise?

Depends if we're talking about God as a creator or a God who can do anything and intervene when s/he sees fit.

I do not belive in any kind of god, besides the fact that most definitions of god are self defeating.

Furthermore, I believe that religion is dangerous, and I will do my utmost to fight against it in any way possible.

I believe in the supremacy of the individual (where applicable, of course).

I believe in peanut butter and jam sandwiches - they are truly divine.

you mean theres another god besides my hubbie ??
Hes the one I believe in

Yes. But I'm not sure what to call it. I can't think of the eventuality of our existence without something beyond human. Are we a consequence of mere physical phenomena? No. I don't believe we are the same as dust in space.

I don't believe in a god and prefer to stick with scientific findings (evolution etc) rather than what someone made up out of their heads to try and explain the things that we don't understand.

"Did you hear about that on the news the other day?"
"Yes, it must be a sign from from God!"

Oh please!!!!! :rolleyes:

For argument's sake, if we took something electrical/battery powered back about 1500 years (a torch or a cd player perhaps)and showed it to the people living in that time they'd most likely think it was black magic or something similar because their present understanding of life wouldn't allow for such things and their only way out would be to invent some explanation involving the occult or religion.....and probably burn the owner at the stake for being a witch or whatever. I see the deeply religious as a modern day equivalent of these dark-age types who live their lives by the supposed will of some invented higher being. I think it's their easy way out rather than having to face the harsh reality that bad things do happen to people and there isn't some omnipotent being who will take it all away 'some time soon'. A Jehovah's Witness once stood on my doorstep and told me this. Pffff! :rolleyes:

Another thing that really gets me is when I read snippets of text in religious leaflets that get posted through the door that say 'God wants you to do this' and God wants you to do that'. Excuse me? :rolleyes: If that's not an attempt at controlling people I don't know what is.

Thou shalt not??? In the words of Billy Connolly "We f***ing SHALL pal!" :D

The bottom line is that you don't need religion in order to be a good, pleasant person and be friendly and decent with others. I manage that quite well without it and it annoys me when people tell me I need some god in my life to make me complete.

/rant :D

so using the same argument, no one knows if fairies or goblins exist because they can't prove that they don't?

Actually i'm the lord of the universe, prove me wrong... and before you ask, I refuse to demonstrate anything, it's up to you to provide a negative proof, not to me to fail to provide a positive one.

Originally posted by Warreng
i think that know one knows if God exists or not until they find out or dont find out, because there is no proof and anything is possible so its possible for God to exist or to not exist, and anything is possible because you cant prove that somethign is impossible....

I have faith, but am wary of religion it seems to be the main cause of most of the wars and terrorism. I would say I am more of a spirtuall person than a religious one

What about the dinosaurs?

What about them?

They didn't believe in god either. :D

Originally posted by Tony
I remember a play on TV last year about the second coming.

Basically God tries to get to grips with the devil and all his little demons, but ends up realising that if God didn't exist, neither would the Devil.


God kills himself for the love of Man.





That was an amazing thought to be left with.

I don't believe the devil is any more an entity than God is. It seems we always need something else to blame for the ills in our world. Pinning it on God or the devil is a sure fire way to let ourselves off the hook. Only when we all take responsibilty for our decisions and actions will the world change. That goes for governments and religion as well as our personal choices.

Originally posted by Sidla
Depends if we're talking about God as a creator or a God who can do anything and intervene when s/he sees fit.

Ah, the old Theism/Deism thing. Uh-oh...

Originally posted by Cyclone
so using the same argument, no one knows if fairies or goblins exist because they can't prove that they don't?

Actually i'm the lord of the universe, prove me wrong... and before you ask, I refuse to demonstrate anything, it's up to you to provide a negative proof, not to me to fail to provide a positive one.

This is heading down a previous road. One that I agree with you on, mind. All those people looking for 'negative proofs' - our society is based on the concept of 'the burden of proof'. Look it up. Why should God be any different?

Im one of the those delightful fence-sitters otherwise known as an agnostic
dictionary definition for ya
someone who believes that we know nothing of things beyond material phenomena, that a Creator, creative cause, and unseen world are unknown or unknowable things
Id like to believe there's something out there, God(s), aliens some supreme governing force, its certainly a comforting thought when youre moments away from croaking it but I dont know.
We live in an increasingly pluralistic society and unfortunately we have too many people fighting over the basis that their God is best, then on the other side we have the decline of religious belief in favour of science and fact, or in some cases returning back to paganism or lentils and aromatherapy.
It might be a quack philosophy but I stand by the line in the wonderful film Dogma "It doesnt matter what you have faith in, so long as you have faith" a nice all encompassing statement, everybody is right, no matter what they believe in.
and God is always handy to have around, especially when you feel the need to blaspheme :wink:

I like to believe that there is something there... Its not a 'God' just something... lol

What gets me tho is that should that day come that i choose to be Wed... I dont feel i would be happy getting married in a church... All that pretence of being in er... dare i say it 'Gods House' hmmm that wouldnt seem right...

So should that day come which i very much doubt but should it happen i think we will be settling for a wedding overseas (romantic) or a Hotel... very relaxed and oh of course romantic ;)

I have a curious mind and look for answers scientifically. But I still marvel at the wonders of life and the universe and contemplate the question of God. I like to have faith because I find that it’s comforting. Appreciating life is my form of worship, but my faith and form of worship varies as I go through life. Some times it's difficult to appreciate life when that eggshell we call happiness becomes damaged.
Religion, like anything in life, can be good, and equally bad. I respect people's beliefs or religions, and I'll approve of people who have faith whatever it is, providing they are equally respectful to humanity, which, sadly, is not necessarily the case.
Only people are good or evil. Good and evil are defined through our actions, not a religion.

I too marvel at creation also the conscious mind. I am an engineer and the more I look into the world the more amazing and complex it becomes.

But I'm still leaning towards 'there is no God' however the only thing that keeps me returning are these two things; that and FEAR...

I was brought up in a christian home and have been taught about heaven and hell. When you think about it Hell's an awful scary place (as scary as you can imagine!) and so I return to church/God out of fear.

Fear also strengthens my feelings there is no (christian) God. It is claimed that Christianity is different from other religions in that it is based on love and grace. However, if you get to the real root of it, Christianity is merely an ultimatum. ‘Believe in me or suffer eternal torment’. NOT very loving!?

Originally posted by Angel05
i think we will be settling for a wedding overseas (romantic) or a Hotel... very relaxed and oh of course romantic ;)
As long as it's not the hotel (http://www.britanniahotels.com/hotel_home.asp?Page=58) I work at, I'll be happy.

do the people who claim to believe or have faith because it's comforting, safe, nice or scary not too not see that that's a rather shallow basis for having faith. In fact, i'd argue that by rationalising it that much, you're basically demonstrating a lack of faith, but then claiming you have it in order to fool yourself...
Just accept that the world is a big scary place and that when you croak it, that's it, end of story, no angels with harps, certainly no aliens involved (why would there be), dust to dust to steal a quote from a populist self perpetuating meme.

Originally posted by Cyclone
Just accept that the world is a big scary place and that when you croak it, that's it, end of story, no angels with harps, certainly no aliens involved (why would there be), dust to dust to steal a quote from a populist self perpetuating meme.
Prove it....

If people want to believe in life after death then let them, it's not harming anyone.

Actually religion has cause more hurt than anything else in history, be it physical or emotional. And Christianity, far from being the accepting religion it claims to be, is the very thing that has caused people not to be accepted in the first place. :loopy:

Christianity in itself harms nobody. It's people who do not accept that others are free to believe whatever they choose.

so you don't think society has a duty to try to help people labouring under such misapprehensions as the earth being flat, that they can fly, or that there is some almighty power watching over them and that everything they do is in his name?

They can believe whatever they like, but it doesn't mean i shouldn't try to shed a little light into the darkened room of their minds.

I don't have to prove the non-existance of something, you're not a science graduate are you.

Originally posted by Sidla
As long as it's not the hotel (http://www.britanniahotels.com/hotel_home.asp?Page=58) I work at, I'll be happy.

I would have said charming! but hmmm good plug :)

Originally posted by Sidla
Prove it....

If people want to believe in life after death then let them, it's not harming anyone.

You've got that the wrong way round, I'm afraid. The onus is on the believers to prove that it exists. After all, you're the ones that are making the claim in the first place. The fact that you won't (ie can't) more or less wraps it up in favour of the realists, wouldn't you say?

Originally posted by Cyclone
do the people who claim to believe or have faith because it's comforting, safe, nice or scary not too not see that that's a rather shallow basis for having faith. In fact, i'd argue that by rationalising it that much, you're basically demonstrating a lack of faith, but then claiming you have it in order to fool yourself...
Just accept that the world is a big scary place and that when you croak it, that's it, end of story, no angels with harps, certainly no aliens involved (why would there be), dust to dust to steal a quote from a populist self perpetuating meme.

and

Originally posted by Cyclone
so you don't think society has a duty to try to help people labouring under such misapprehensions as the earth being flat, that they can fly, or that there is some almighty power watching over them and that everything they do is in his name?

They can believe whatever they like, but it doesn't mean i shouldn't try to shed a little light into the darkened room of their minds.

I don't have to prove the non-existance of something, you're not a science graduate are you.

You've successfully managed to prove the non existence of an understanding of irony!!!

PS:
Science graduates would probably spell existence correctly.

i'm living proof that they don't, or at least not always.

Please explain what you think is ironic about those two posts of mine? I fail to see it.

seeker after knowledge: I've decided to give up the folly of religion and turn to science for the one true answer...

pedagogue: good, good - glad to see you have come to tthe side of rationality!

sok: so, all wise mr scientist where did we all come from?

p: thats a very interesting question - all the matter in the universe came from the big bang which was an explosion at the start of the universe.

sok: so where did the material in the big bang come from?

p: I'm afraid thats a question you can't ask - all time also came from the big bang so there was no before for it to come from.

sok: but thats rediculous - it must have come from somewhere so what was there before the big bang?

p: *sticks fingers in ears* LALALALALA I can't hear you!

sok: Oh OK, there was a big explosion that created all the time and matter in the universe -I'll go along with that.

p: good, good - now if you look at this elegant mathematical proof you will see why what I say is correct.

sok: *reads proof* ermmmm aren't you missing something - like 90% of the universe?

p: yes - but thats made of material that we can't see - called dark matter.

sok: OK - dark matter. You cant see it but presumably you can measure its in some way?

p: Dark matter is made of weakly interacting particles so it doesnt act in the same way as normal matter. We will be able to measure it, but at the moment our meausuring devices are not sensitive enough to do that.

sok: So how do you know it exists then?

p: Well the calculations show us that we are missing matter so there MUST be something out there, we just don't know what.

sok: So what your saying is, in violation of all known physical laws the big bang just popped into existance created all the matter and time in the universe, 90% of which we can't see or measure but we are supposed to take on faith because it fits in with your theories about the univers - sod this I'm going back to church its far more rational!

Originally posted by Cyclone
i'm living proof that they don't, or at least not always.

Please explain what you think is ironic about those two posts of mine? I fail to see it.

Exactly

and

Everything you have said in these quotes requires a faith on your part.

what does it require faith in, i'm guessing the answer is going to be something along the lines of having faith in what my sense tell me... In which case, that's not faith. But maybe i'm wrong...

Without wanting to delve to deeply into an epistemological explanation or an argument of semantics, faith is simply trusting that something is true. It can be applied to religion, science or spiritualism – whatever you want. But in all cases nobody can actually prove or disprove what is known as a non-foundational belief (a belief upon which there is no evident certainty). Even foundational beliefs can be questioned with questions like “How do I know it’s not really a dream?” There are no satisfactory answers and all explanations tend to become closed system arguments (you go round and round in circles saying “because it just is”).
These differences in belief systems have, historically and recently, escalated into reasons to kill each other, which is why people say “you shouldn’t discuss religion”.
For those out there who know a bit about this, I know this is a vastly simplified version of thousands of years of philosophical thought. But in a nut shell – nobody’s faith is questionable, nor is it unquestionable. It just is, but then again, it might not be.
Our actions and motives, however, are evident and can reflect the kind of person that we are.

the nature of science is not to have faith, it's to question something until you are satsified with it, requiring objective proof. So what it is that you think i have faith in?

Originally posted by Cyclone
the nature of science is not to have faith, it's to question something until you are satsified with it, requiring objective proof. So what it is that you think i have faith in?

You have faith, apparently, in the nature and validity of your own comments. Your faith depends on your certainty that there is no god, “no angels with harps, certainly no aliens involved”. You believe this to be true, ergo, you have faith. If you refer to my initial comment on this thread you will see that this is perfectly respectable. You are just like the rest of the population.
Science is the study of nature. Knowledge of nature is ascertained by means of scientific process: proving or disproving a hypothesis.
If anything it could be argued that the purpose of science is to justify faith. The "nature" of science, as you put it, is to have faith that it will eventually find the truth, whatever that may be. And here's the mind bender... by that very same nature, logically, science can not rule out the possibility of proving that a god exists!
There are scientists who have strong religious beliefs. Does this affect their ability to function as scientists? Script writers like to play around with the "science verses religion" argument. But if this argument was real, then our hubs of learning, i.e. the academic community of universities world wide, would not invest monumental proportions of time, effort and money into the broad spectrum of knowledge which encompasses science, the arts, philosophy and theology.

Originally posted by mojoworking
You've got that the wrong way round, I'm afraid. The onus is on the believers to prove that it exists. After all, you're the ones that are making the claim in the first place. The fact that you won't (ie can't) more or less wraps it up in favour of the realists, wouldn't you say?
Well disprove it then.

Can't everyone just chill out? As long as you're not hurting other people what does it matter what you believe?

Originally posted by Sidla
Well disprove it then.


As I've already said, I don't have to disprove something I don't believe in.

To repeat: the onus is on you god botherers to prove the existance of a higher power. But you won't, because you can't

faith is belief in the absence of evidence. I do not have faith in my comments, i have belief which is rational and supported by what evidence i have. Faith is blind, it considers no evidence and presented with proof either way would not change, my belief however is open to change when presented with new evidence.

Logically nothing can ever be ruled out, i've said this several times, there can be no proof for a negative hypotheses unless it happens to be one of two opposites and you prove the alternative to be true.
Science never claimed that it can prove that god does not exist. Such a statement would be meaningless, neither can it prove that fairies and goblins don't exist, does that mean that anyone who has faith in fairies and goblins is a perfectly rational person and that i should treat there view with respect, not in my opinion. Rather it would seem that the person is willfully living in a fantasy world despite a complete and utter lack of evidence to support the idea that they believe (hence faith).

Originally posted by Mr_E
You have faith, apparently, in the nature and validity of your own comments. Your faith depends on your certainty that there is no god, “no angels with harps, certainly no aliens involved”. You believe this to be true, ergo, you have faith. If you refer to my initial comment on this thread you will see that this is perfectly respectable. You are just like the rest of the population.
Science is the study of nature. Knowledge of nature is ascertained by means of scientific process: proving or disproving a hypothesis.
If anything it could be argued that the purpose of science is to justify faith. The "nature" of science, as you put it, is to have faith that it will eventually find the truth, whatever that may be. And here's the mind bender... by that very same nature, logically, science can not rule out the possibility of proving that a god exists!
There are scientists who have strong religious beliefs. Does this affect their ability to function as scientists? Script writers like to play around with the "science verses religion" argument. But if this argument was real, then our hubs of learning, i.e. the academic community of universities world wide, would not invest monumental proportions of time, effort and money into the broad spectrum of knowledge which encompasses science, the arts, philosophy and theology.

Originally posted by Cyclone
faith is belief in the absence of evidence. I do not have faith in my comments, i have belief which is rational and supported by what evidence i have. Faith is blind, it considers no evidence and presented with proof either way would not change, my belief however is open to change when presented with new evidence.[

Not according to the OED

"Faith: noun 1 complete trust or confidence."

and is marked as synonymous with belief. Do you completely believe the theory of evolution? Thats a theory - it fits the known facts but there is no definative evidence saying it is true. Do you completely believe in the Big Bang theory? If so why - is it any more rational to believe the universe was made in a giant explosion that just popped into existance in violation of all physical laws rather than was created by some external force (i.e. some god)?

GOD ... I love scientific viewpoints and approaches to this topic ... they really do cover all the angles ... hehe.

I have probably posted this before but here it is again.

It is a good forum for religious debate with some shocking and interesting views.

http://selectsmart.com/DISCUSS/list.php?f=33

I dont believe in a God. However I do believe in living by those sorts of rules likethe commandements. Be nice to people. Dont steal. These rules make life nicer to llive. They make sense. The idea of a God does not make sense to me.

I hate being invited to christenings, weddings and funerals because you have to go to church out of respect for the family.

I dont sing or pray and feel a total hypocrite whilst I am there but I go for my friends sake or the family just to keep the cart on ther wheels so to speak. Does anyone else feel like that?

I definitely do not believe in God.:P

there is some evidence to support the theory of evolution you know. We can detect genetic change and predict how it affects the growth of an individual, we can see gradual change in historic evidence of species (through fossils), we can see direct evidence of evolution in short lived species... There's a lot more evidence for that, than everything having suddenly just been created 4000 years ago.

The big bang is clearly not in violation of any physical laws since no physical laws can exist prior to the universes' existance. It's the one that people arguing against science always bring up. The answer is that we don't fully understand the creation of the universe yet, but at least scientists are objectively looking rather than having been told that some super being just created it and with no further evidence accepting that to be the truth.

Originally posted by evildrneil
Not according to the OED

"Faith: noun 1 complete trust or confidence."

and is marked as synonymous with belief. Do you completely believe the theory of evolution? Thats a theory - it fits the known facts but there is no definative evidence saying it is true. Do you completely believe in the Big Bang theory? If so why - is it any more rational to believe the universe was made in a giant explosion that just popped into existance in violation of all physical laws rather than was created by some external force (i.e. some god)?

Originally posted by mojoworking
As I've already said, I don't have to disprove something I don't believe in.

To repeat: the onus is on you god botherers to prove the existance of a higher power. But you won't, because you can't
And you can't prove that there is no God, so please shut up.

No, I don't believe in God. I've met lots of people with religious faith, and they were really nice. Kind and helpful and so on. But I couldn't get over the feeling that they were a bit gullible. I've always found it rather hard to respect the gullible.

As to the scientific viewpoints to this topic...

Religion (which i use here as a synonym for Christianity, which I know the most about) used to cover all the bases. It had explanations for the whole natural world. Religion has basically lost the explanations for most things, leaving just 'inner space', like souls and the afterlife. Science has not come up with explanations for this, as there are no phenomena that need explaining.

Originally posted by Cyclone
there is some evidence to support the theory of evolution you know. We can detect genetic change and predict how it affects the growth of an individual, we can see gradual change in historic evidence of species (through fossils), we can see direct evidence of evolution in short lived species... There's a lot more evidence for that, than everything having suddenly just been created 4000 years ago.

There is evidence for evolution yes - however its still a theory tht fits the observable evidence - and who mentioned anything about things suddenly being created 4000 years ago? This is not a simple balck/white either/or choice here - its not a case of you must believe in evolution OR you must believe in creationism!

The big bang is clearly not in violation of any physical laws since no physical laws can exist prior to the universes' existance. It's the one that people arguing against science always bring up. The answer is that we don't fully understand the creation of the universe yet, but at least scientists are objectively looking rather than having been told that some super being just created it and with no further evidence accepting that to be the truth.

I'm not arguing against science (that would be fairly stupid as I'm a scientist!), however science is merely a tool for looking at the universe and too many people treat is as a religion of rationalism where theories are put forward as the absolute truth. Nothing in science denies the existance of god.

There are indeed a number of ways to oppose evolution. This webpage lists some of them.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/anti-darwin.html

The rest of the site is pretty good as well. I found it really useful for university course work.

Originally posted by Cyclone
does that mean that anyone who has faith in fairies and goblins is a perfectly rational person and that i should treat there view with respect, not in my opinion.

Thank you evildrneil I couldn’t have put that better myself.

Cyclone, Do you honestly stand by this narrow opinion?
We are obviously encountering a closed system argument!
Call me anti-cyclonic, but I certainly couldn't agree with you because I believe you are fundamentally wrong, which is ironic considering I am not a practising worshiper of any religion, just the joys of life.
But I respect your beliefs.
It’s just a shame you can't bring yourself to do the same. The world would be a happier and more peaceful place if we all respected other belief systems and tolerated each other for them without making presumptuous comments founded upon our own unfounded beliefs. I maintain that you would be the last person " to shed a little light into the darkened room of..." my mind. When you say “little” do you mean narrow in terms of the spectrum?
Actually, I like my windows to face south and my doors are open to anyone, whatever their faith. The only thing I ask for, in my room, is that people are kind to one another. You’re welcome into my room, mate, but don’t expect to brighten it.

It strikes me that there should be agreement on what is meant by 'GOD' ... BEFORE discussing if 'he?' exists or not.

Originally posted by Sidla
And you can't prove that there is no God, so please shut up.

Telling someone to "shut up" on a discussion forum is the last refuge of someone who has clearly lost the plot (and the argument).

At the risk of repeating myself for the third time, I'm not the one claiming the existence of god, so I don't have to prove anything. What don't you understand about that?

I respect peoples rights to have differing beliefs to myself. But if they choose to enter into a discussion about them i will attempt to show them why there belief is incorrect and mine is correct. (And if i didn't actually think that, then it wouldn't be my belief).

How do you counter the gremlins argument, do you respect the beliefs of someone who is just plainly misguided and gullible?

Nice play on words, you can call it monocromatic if you like.

Science is a framework to critically analyse things and make your own mind up. Religion is the very opposite where "facts" are given to you and questioning them is contra to the very fabric of faith.

Originally posted by Mr_E
Thank you evildrneil I couldn’t have put that better myself.

Cyclone, Do you honestly stand by this narrow opinion?
We are obviously encountering a closed system argument!
Call me anti-cyclonic, but I certainly couldn't agree with you because I believe you are fundamentally wrong, which is ironic considering I am not a practising worshiper of any religion, just the joys of life.
But I respect your beliefs.
It’s just a shame you can't bring yourself to do the same. The world would be a happier and more peaceful place if we all respected other belief systems and tolerated each other for them without making presumptuous comments founded upon our own unfounded beliefs. I maintain that you would be the last person " to shed a little light into the darkened room of..." my mind. When you say “little” do you mean narrow in terms of the spectrum?
Actually, I like my windows to face south and my doors are open to anyone, whatever their faith. The only thing I ask for, in my room, is that people are kind to one another. You’re welcome into my room, mate, but don’t expect to brighten it.

Originally posted by Cyclone
I respect peoples rights to have differing beliefs to myself. But if they choose to enter into a discussion about them i will attempt to show them why there belief is incorrect and mine is correct. (And if i didn't actually think that, then it wouldn't be my belief).

But you can't show your belief is correct in this case!


Science is a framework to critically analyse things and make your own mind up. Religion is the very opposite where "facts" are given to you and questioning them is contra to the very fabric of faith.

Belief in god does not imply subscription to a religion and, you are confusing religion with doctrine

I refer to God as a creator. A God who can intervene and who is an omnipotent presence in the world I do not believe in.

I believe the universe was created by something, a 'god' if you like, but an intelligence beyond our comprehension.

I do not have to prove this to anyone, because it is my belief and I'm not trying to convince anyone else that it is gospel fact. I am not harming anyone with my belief and I therefore do not wish to feel belittled by people who claim that others who believe in God are away with the fairies somewhere. I am not a stupid person and embrace scientific discovery. If it is discovered one day that in all certainty the universe was not created then I would give up my belief in a higher being.

Quite frankly I'm fed up with the opinion of mojoworking, who has absolutely no time of day for other peoples beliefs. It is people like you who cause the most problems in this world.

Absolutely! I've had an insight into what he's capable of.

Just read the post by mojo!,it really cracked me up as usual.
don't get annoyed at mojo it's just that she's not been given proof.
There's always a place in the great scheme of things for the mojo's of this world so don't get stressed by them.
They're decent Human Beings too.

Don't quite understand what you're driving at there Bulldog, but jumping into bed with Sidla (so to speak) is probably not good for your image :)

Originally posted by mojoworking
Don't quite understand what you're driving at there Bulldog, but jumping into bed with Sidla the virgin god botherer (so to speak) is probably not good for your image :)
An image!
I didn't realise I had one!
In fact I don't want one as i believe Images can be interperated in many different ways and therfore can be misleading.
I speak as I have found and in what I know is right.
There are times and places to divulge experiences that enlighten you beyond the usual and this is neither the time or the place.
Sidla looks like a good egg to me as so do you Mojo.

Originally posted by Sidla
Quite frankly I'm fed up with the opinion of mojoworking, who has absolutely no time of day for other peoples beliefs. It is people like you who cause the most problems in this world.

And there I was thinking this was a discussion forum where points of view could be exchanged in a civilised manner. I was obviously wrong about that.

I fully respect your right to believe in whatever you want, but your faith can't be all that strong if you spit the dummy as soon as you're asked a difficult question. It sounds more like blind faith to me.

(no Eric Clapton jokes, please).

Originally posted by bulldog D
An image!
I didn't realise I had one!
In fact I don't want one as i believe Images can be interperated in many different ways and therfore can be misleading.
I speak as I have found and in what I know is right.
There are times and places to divulge experiences that enlighten you beyond the usual and this is neither the time or the place.
Sidla looks like a good egg to me as so do you Mojo.

Thanks bulldog. I misread your post, thinking the first line was refering to me. Apologies.

There I go, mistaking myself for god* yet again ;)

(*not that he exists, of course) :)

Sidla, while respecting your faith, what mojoworking and cyclone are saying is that you can't prove a negative. To say whether or not God exists, you have to prove that he DOES. There is no way of proving that something doesn't exist, other than if no-one has ever seen it, heard it, felt it, etc, which is the case with God. For example, can you prove that Father Christmas doesn't exist? No, you can't, because you can't prove a negative. All you can do is offer reasons why his existence would be very unlikely, such as visiting many millions of houses in one night. Likewise, to prove God doesn't exist, all that can be done is to offer reasons of why his existence would be very unlikely, such as how did something magically create everything, who created the creator, howcome scientific evidence contradicts the bible, rational thinking rather than brainwashed fairy tales, etc etc. Can you understand this?

My two penneth on this is - I would love to believe in a God but without any proof it is just like any other conspiracy theory.

Show me proof and I'll believe - until then its just a theory.

Originally posted by coopster1974
My two penneth on this is - I would love to believe in a God but without any proof it is just like any other conspiracy theory.

Show me proof and I'll believe - until then its just a theory.

Exactly. The sad thing is, for thousands of years so much death and destruction has been carried out in the name of this "theory".

And in the twentieth century millions upon millions died for the belief in the intellectual religions / theories of Fascism and Communism.

Millions have their lives ripped apart when people who's spiritual beliefs are based around Mammon and the Market Place decide to shut factories, exploit developing countries, whatever.

Organised religion is a human construction and all human social constructions are quite capable of inflicting hurt and harm on those who don't fit.

I'm not sure that God has anything to do with how organised religion has used fear and bigotry to ensure temporal power for many historical religious leaders.

Joe

Fasicism, capitalism, communism, etc... are not religions. They are just competing social models.
I refer you to this definition of religion. You could apply the last definition to one of the social constructs above, in that you could religously be a capitalist, the same way as someone could religiously follow their football club. But that doesn't suggest that football is a religion...
We are quite clearly talking about religion as 1 and 2 here since 3 would not have anything to do with a deity.

1 a) Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b) A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
c) The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
2) A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
3) A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

Originally posted by JoePritchard
And in the twentieth century millions upon millions died for the belief in the intellectual religions / theories of Fascism and Communism.

Millions have their lives ripped apart when people who's spiritual beliefs are based around Mammon and the Market Place decide to shut factories, exploit developing countries, whatever.

Organised religion is a human construction and all human social constructions are quite capable of inflicting hurt and harm on those who don't fit.

I'm not sure that God has anything to do with how organised religion has used fear and bigotry to ensure temporal power for many historical religious leaders.

Joe

Urgh argh bleargh.

I've just spent 2 days writing essays on this topic (again), and have come to the conclusion that I always come to. Christians are socialised into their faith (and unwilling to accept that they would not believe in God had they been born into a different situation), and insecure in thinking that they are responsible for their own actions.

My current pet hate is Swinburne. May he rot in his own stupidity. Here's a quote from my most recent essay (albeit a rather intellectually juvenile one in terms of language!):

Swinburne said that “in the end there will be some one object on whom all other objects depend”, so he is basically emulating Aquinas’s argument of the first cause. He bases his argument on human experience of objects’ dependence on other objects, which is innately flawed, as he is dealing with a non-human concept, and the same way of thinking, and these analogies, do not apply.
For Swinburne (ever the voice of blind faith), if an argument is simple and easy to understand, we should believe it because, supposedly, it is less trouble than thinking about philosophy. He believes that God is the simplest explanation, and to believe in God is to unburden yourself of the responsibility of thinking about life’s questions – all you need to know is that God has a plan for you, and that if we don’t understand something, then maybe we are supposed to be ignorant of this information.

Fair enough, cyclone, although I get the feel that a lot of what's been spoken here has been about belief systems rather than religion per se. Anyway....

In Stalinist Russia and Nazi Germany, particularly in the latter, there were quite large efforts made to mirror the behaviour and structures of organised religion.

In Germany there were extreme elements in the SS who started building a religious aspect around various artefects from history - items like the so called 'Spear of Destiny'. Hitler was almost deified by many of his followers, as was Stalin - look at the way in which images of these two dictators often reflected religious imagery. At the death of Stalin his images were held like icons by the grieving masses.

Take a look at any of the good social histories of Stalinist Russia and Nazi Germany - the similarities between them and traditional organised religions are quite significant.

AND...there's a difference between 'belief in God' and 'adherence to organised religion'. The issues around organised religion in this tread are, in many ways, not related to whether people believe in God or not. I believe, but I question the authority of the Pope over my life, for example. The RC church is a social construct just like any of the other religions - they offer their way of encountering God, and usually say that their way is the only way. I group religions and movements like Communism and Fascism together purely because they all work in that way.

A belief in God can be held by anyone without a bunch of middlemen.....:)

Joe

How does this god you believe in manifest itself Joe?

Moreover, why do you feel the need to believe in a god at all? Does the belief fill a void in your life?

Nosey, Swinburne is right though - for a contented life, unquestioning adeherence to doctrine provides freedom from existential angst,

I have always found the god and religion to be more or less mutually exclusive.

Maybe we should try, as Jamie suggests, sharpen our idea of what we mean by god.

Obviously, this is an impossible word to define. After all, to "define" a thing means putting boundaries around it, and God is Infinity, the very absence of boundaries. Further, being Infinite, God is by definition (!) beyond the capacity of our egoic minds ("I am me, and you aren't") to understand. That is, despite our protestations to the contrary, most of us perceive God [those of us that do] as being "out there" (or "up there", even "in here"), as somewhere or something other than ourselves. And that's the problem! In Truth, there is no such thing as a "God out there". Once again, being Infinite, God is everywhere and no where, everything and no thing. God is our very Self which itself is The Very Self. Thus we often say: There is no God but God, and God is All There Is.

sounds like Tao to me!

Where does the concept of god, particularly "the supernatural being conceived as the perfect and omnipotent and omniscient originator and ruler of the universe" come from?

What is it about the eastern mediterranean that gives rise to monotheism or was it a natural progression of mergers and monopolies from the pantheon of gods to the kingdom of god?

What is "that spiritual feeling", what some evangelists call "a God shaped hole" that many of us feel from time to time - a biological function? A real yearning for the divine benefactor fromwhich we have been alienated? A sublimated desire that life extends beyond death into a realm of the other? Is this a recent feeling, or was it experienced in antiquity?

And what of the theory that the "gods" really did speak to ancient man as literally and ordinarily as we imagine. These "gods" were the self organising subconcious instructions of one hemisphere sent to the other through the corpus callosum by the most effecient means possible - language. Man was like an ant, with no egoic thought of his own.

In a mechanism as yet unknown, this bicameral mind broke down, and the gods became our egos, our 'conscious' minds.

Been reading "The Origins of Consciousness in the breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" by Julian Jaynes again. It's tough going, and ultimately flawed I think (I have heard), but does throw up some utterly startling ideas.

The main one is that "God" died in each and every one of us some time around Homer's epics.

How can an eye see the truth of itself by looking ... when every direction is away from itself ...

Originally posted by noseyrosie
Christians are socialised into their faith (and unwilling to accept that they would not believe in God had they been born into a different situation), and insecure in thinking that they are responsible for their own actions.

Only Christians?

Originally posted by Sidla
I refer to God as a creator. A God who can intervene and who is an omnipotent presence in the world I do not believe in.

I believe the universe was created by something, a 'god' if you like, but an intelligence beyond our comprehension.

I do not have to prove this to anyone, because it is my belief and I'm not trying to convince anyone else that it is gospel fact. I am not harming anyone with my belief and I therefore do not wish to feel belittled by people who claim that others who believe in God are away with the fairies somewhere. I am not a stupid person and embrace scientific discovery. If it is discovered one day that in all certainty the universe was not created then I would give up my belief in a higher being.

Quite frankly I'm fed up with the opinion of mojoworking, who has absolutely no time of day for other peoples beliefs. It is people like you who cause the most problems in this world.

I'm with you Sidla !! and I find a lot of the comments about your beliefs and the inference that you do not have the abiltiy to reason and work things out for yourself totally condescending.
Some of you need to get out of your heads and into your hearts for that is where you will find "God". I have experienced god in my life but no I'm not a born again, I'm not dim witted, I'm not an airy fairy do gooder. I'm just a normal woman with a husband, two kids and a couple of grandchildren. So - please, don't try telling me I don't know what I'm talking about. I figure I have had plenty of time on this planet to ponder the ways of the world and it's workings.

Originally posted by Banksia
I have experienced god in my life but no I'm not a born again, I'm not dim witted, I'm not an airy fairy do gooder. I'm just a normal woman with a husband, two kids and a couple of grandchildren.


Would it be too personal to explain how you had experienced "god"?

with a mirror.

Originally posted by Jamie
How can an eye see the truth of itself by looking ... when every direction is away from itself ...

maybe you are mistaken, or delusional. Can you offer any evidence, preferably something that can be recreated and measured.

Originally posted by Banksia
I'm with you Sidla !! and I find a lot of the comments about your beliefs and the inference that you do not have the abiltiy to reason and work things out for yourself totally condescending.
Some of you need to get out of your heads and into your hearts for that is where you will find "God". I have experienced god in my life but no I'm not a born again, I'm not dim witted, I'm not an airy fairy do gooder. I'm just a normal woman with a husband, two kids and a couple of grandchildren. So - please, don't try telling me I don't know what I'm talking about. I figure I have had plenty of time on this planet to ponder the ways of the world and it's workings.

Personally, I've always thought of "god" as security blanket, and an easy answer to difficult questions. It seems easier for many to explain that which we do not yet understand (for example, the intricate workings of the universe) simply as "god's work". If something terrible occurs, then it's simply down to "god moving in mysterious ways". If an (initially) unexplainable positive event occurs, it's a miracle, executed by an omnipresent, all powerful creator.

There have been so many manifestations, or concepts of god through human history - so many have been abandoned, and yet so many still "exist". The thing that pains me, is not by any means the fact that people believe in a god, but the fact that some people believe so vehemently, that they're prepared to harm and even kill in the name of their true god. But which god is the real god, if any at all? The Christian god? Allah? Jehovah? Zeus? Amun? Shiva? Huitzilopochtli? I know it’s purely down to faith in one’s own belief, and admittedly, I can't prove the non-existence of any god, just as those who believe can't prove that one does exist.

I certainly don't think the belief in a god is in itself harmful, but the way in which that belief is applied in some cases is most certainly harmful - especially when that belief is used to camouflage the believer's own prejudices and bigoted views.

Finally, I’ve always thought the concept of “god’s plan” poses an interesting set of questions pertaining to free will. If god has a plan for each and every one of us, do we ultimately have any freedom of choice? Are we just lead to believe we have the freedom of choice, when in fact every decision we make, and every action we undertake has been predetermined by god? If so, is it god’s will that I, and many others don’t believe, or believe in a rival god? Or is there just a draft plan for each of us, with a few blanks that we’re allowed to fill in by making our own choices every now and then? If this is the case, what happens when we stray off the path, and out of the draft plan?

The problem I have really, is the people who are saying catagorically that they do not believe in God are dismissing all posibility that one may exsist. You seem to think it's a stupid idea.

The fact that the entire universe emerged from a big bang billions of years ago is a pretty daft idea too, but I bet you're not so quick to dismiss it.

Isn't this how wars started in the very beginning? Sigh @ religion. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by mojoworking
How does this god you believe in manifest itself Joe?

Moreover, why do you feel the need to believe in a god at all? Does the belief fill a void in your life?

That's a very interesting setof questions. In fact, they're so interesting that I get the feeling that you're not so much interested in what my answers are as how you can throw them back against me and continue the 'there is no god unless you can prove there is a god' argument.

Or maybe I'm being overly cynical here...let's assume that I am, and that you're genuinely concerned for my personal development.

In my day to day life, by the way, I'm a total pragmatist; I believe in evolution, the Big Bang, quantumn physics; I don't believe in Biblical creation; I do not believe in the Old and New Testament as literal truths.

Anyway...

<B>My experience of my God</B>
A difficult question to answer. I was not bought up in a religious household, and although Christened in to the Church of England as an infant rarely went to Church and even now have never been confirmed in to the Church. I was bought up with a fairly solid scientific education, although one of my aunts was an active member of her local Methodist Chapel. I was very interested in techie stuff as I grew up - my hobbies still include amateur radio, astronomy, mathematical diversions such as fractals, chaos theory, etc. I built a simple computer when I was about 15, estimated the distance from the earth to the moon, built radios, blew things up. That sort of stuff.

In fact, I was probably pretty much an agnostic / atheist, but the more I read and studied the more I realised that science was very much an ongoing investigation - BUT that many scientists seemed to be very dogmatic about what was and wasn't 'True'. In fact, some reminded me of the Creationist churchmen in the US, or the Inquisition of the Vatican in Rennaisance Italy. So I started to be less dogmatic and more open minded and questioning in my own beliefs, and did some reading of Christian philosophy and theology - rather than go to Church and accept a new Dogma, I just wanted to see what the fuss was all about.

Why do I believe in God? I have no idea except that it is an imortant facet of my life. You might as well ask 'Why is my favourite colour blue?' 'Why do I like bread and dripping?'.

As to my experience of my God, well, you have me there. I can't scratch a window with God or say that I've had any Dasmascene style conversions involving glowing lights or Angelic interruptions of my journey through life. I've just developed a faith in something larger than myself and the day to day world, and have occasionally had events and experiences that have backed up that faith in various small ways.

You would probably describe them as coincidence, luck, wish-fulfillment, etc. and there's never going to be anything I can say that will change your mind, just as little you have to say will change my faith and belief in God. However, as I'm not trying to convert you or proselytise, that shouldn't be an issue! :)

I guess that my faith is an anchor point in my life. My ethical and moral compass, and a source of guidance to me in my living. I don't always meet the criteria and occasionally fall off the wagon, so to say, but the direction is set for me to follow.

<b>Does my belief fill a void in my life</b>
Sorry, mojoworking, I would say definitely not. I've had the ups and downs of any adult of 43 years old. I'm happily married, am on good terms with family and friends within the usual constraints of modern life, have numerous friends and aquaintances throughout the UK and the world. I have many hobbies and interests, am gainfully employed and whilst I'd like to have more money I'm OK with what I have. I'm in reasonably good health, I'm a published author, I've made short films, written and presented radio shows and buy my round in the pub without being asked.

I lost my parents when in my mid 30s and although it was a traumatic time I got over it. My wife and I don't yet have children, but who knows.

In other words, I view my life as pretty full and exciting, and have more goals to achieve. I want to get one of my film scripts for a full length feature made, I want to get a novel published and would like to be a millionaire by the age of 50. I think I can manage it....:)


<b>To sum up....</b>
I find it interesting that the start of this debate was 'Do you believe in God' and those who answered in the affirmative were soon put on the spot. Perhaps it's open season on those with spiritual beliefs around here...

I guess I could spend forever arguing this whole thread, but for now, to summarise - I love my life, I love my wife, I believe in and love my God.

Joe

I can't help wondering if 'do you believe in religion' might not be a better question?

My personal belief (and I stress its personal - I'm not trying to force it on anyone and you are perfectly at liberty to disagree) is that there is a god, but that god is so far outside the human realm of experience that our interpritation of it will always be limited. The use of the word it is intentional - I don't believe god is male or female - the bloke with white hair is just an attempt at labelling. And as far as I can see religion is simply a symptom of the human need to label everything but you can only label what you can know or imagine hence all religions are simply flawed languages for talking about god and fighting over which one is correct makes about as much sense as fighting over whether English (for example) is the one true correct language.

Originally posted by Sidla
The problem I have really, is the people who are saying catagorically that they do not believe in God are dismissing all posibility that one may exsist. You seem to think it's a stupid idea.

The fact that the entire universe emerged from a big bang billions of years ago is a pretty daft idea too, but I bet you're not so quick to dismiss it.

I don't claim to understand the big bang theory. In fact much of it baffles me. But what little of it I do understand makes far more sense than the concept of a god.

The big bang could turn out to be a huge hoax as far as I know. But then again very few people get down on their knees and worship the theory, or send it all their money, or go to war and kill their neighbours over it.

In other words, very few people use to as an emotional crutch to help them through their lives.

Originally posted by t020
Would it be too personal to explain how you had experienced "god"?

I was dealing with the breakdown of my marriage and at that time had no spiritual beliefs whatsoever, in fact I thought God was a "crock". It was a time of great personal struggle. Then one day whilst doing the chores a feeling of pure love swept over me. I felt a sense of love and connection with EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE. It was at that point that I knew, in my heart, that all would be well and that I wasn't alone. Now you sceptics can say I imagined it cos I was desperate, but I know what happened that day, it was MY experience. It cannot be analysed and doesn't need to be. A year or so later, when I did embrace spiritual beliefs something else happened. I have told this story before in another thread so I'll keep it short. When I was in a hospital room in the presence of a dying man I experienced an all encompassing feeling of love. Another woman also present felt it too. It lasted a few seconds and was gone but for that short time it felt as though the three of us were connected at a very deep level, a very profound feeling. No one can tell me there isn't some powerful energy out there, I have experienced it twice quite by accident. As I said before you won't find God in your head, he/it/she is in your heart.

Originally posted by mojoworking
I don't claim to understand the big bang theory. In fact much of it baffles me. But what little of it I do understand makes far more sense than the concept of a god.

The big bang could turn out to be a huge hoax as far as I know. But then again very few people get down on their knees and worship the theory, or send it all their money, or go to war and kill their neighbours over it.

In other words, very few people use to as an emotional crutch to help them through their lives.

I understand some of the theory around the Big Bang...it's just that very first part about where the singularity comes from originally that throws me....

You seem to have a real thing about those of us believing in God using it as an emotional crutch to help us through our lives. As I mentioned above, I'm pretty crutchless at the moment, and a lot of people I know with strong spiritual beliefs in a deity seem to be pretty together.

Joe

Just a note to you all, believers or otherwise:

Even if you don't believe in him, he believes in you.

"Prove it"

Have a little faith Ok.

Originally posted by JoePritchard
You seem to have a real thing about those of us believing in God using it as an emotional crutch to help us through our lives. As I mentioned above, I'm pretty crutchless at the moment, and a lot of people I know with strong spiritual beliefs in a deity seem to be pretty together.

Joe

Why else would you believe in something that you can't prove exists unless it was through fear of some kind (of death, maybe?)

faith is the opposite of reason. It abrogates responsability for using your own mind.

Originally posted by Mind_vs_Body
Just a note to you all, believers or otherwise:

Even if you don't believe in him, he believes in you.

"Prove it"

Have a little faith Ok.

Originally posted by mojoworking
Why else would you believe in something that you can't prove exists unless it was through fear of some kind (of death, maybe?)

Having come face to face (and face to snout and face to claw) with the Grim Reaper on about 4 or 5 occasions (bears, wolves, near misses with the car) I'm not particularly scared of dying.

I'd hate to cash out before achieving some of the goals I've set myself, but if it's my time, so be it.

Why isn't it possible for me to have faith without fear? Are you projecting some of your own fears or doubts about your own beliefs on to others?

Just curious....

Joe

Originally posted by JoePritchard
Having come face to face (and face to snout and face to claw) with the Grim Reaper on about 4 or 5 occasions (bears, wolves, near misses with the car) I'm not particularly scared of dying.

I'd hate to cash out before achieving some of the goals I've set myself, but if it's my time, so be it.

Why isn't it possible for me to have faith without fear? Are you projecting some of your own fears or doubts about your own beliefs on to others?

Just curious....

Joe

I hate to press the point, but yet again you've evaded the question. This thread is not about what I believe in (nothing I can't touch, see or smell, since you ask), it's about how and why people have faith in something which is wholly illogical, has never been proved and has caused/still causes more misery in the world than virtually anything you can name.

Of course, as a lightweight/part-time believer, you may feel that much of the above does not apply to you :)

Originally posted by mojoworking
I hate to press the point, but yet gain you've evaded the question. This thread is not about what I believe in (nothing I can't touch, see or feel, since you ask), it's about how and why people have faith in something which is wholly illogical, has never been proved and has caused/still causes more misery in the world than virtually anything you can name.

Of course, as a lightweight/part time believer, you may feel that much of the above may not apply to you :)

I find it a deeply insulting cheap shot that you call me a 'part time' believer. My belief in God is a full time belief; it's just that I don't attend an organised church. I've noticed that your own approach during this whole debate has been to get very personal with people rather than accept that some people have views that differ from yours. My own faith is strong enough so that I don't feel the need to knock other people's beliefs.

The whole issue about faith is that it's impossible to prove one way or another - illogical or not, I just have that faith and that's it. My faith and belief in God hasn't caused me personal misery, but has made me, in my opinion, a better human being. There is no logical reason for my belief and faith; that's why it's faith. I acknowledge that when looked at against the rest of my life it may seem strange that I do have this large chunk of illogic in my life, but that's just the way it is. I can't explain it, and won't deny it. It's a core part of me and makes me who I am.

Many moons ago the thread was launched with 'Do you believe in God' and I answered in the affirmative. If I was also able to prove the existence of God I'm afraid that I wuldn't be sitting here debating the point, now would I?

ANyway....I'm sure we'll probably keep on engaging in this intellectual ******* contest for a while to come yet!

Joe

Yes I do beieve that there is a God and regardless of what is going on in the world He cares. Remember that it is quoted that the devil, satan is the prince of the power of the air so please realise that all things are not totally controlled by God. If man takes it upon himself to do certain things he will do them regardless sometimes of the cost, pain, suffering, longlasting effect to other people.
The church that I go to is an Apostlic Church where you actually see God in action through healing, prayer and the workings of the Spirit. (Holy Ghost, Holy Spirit)
To deny something that I have seen would make me a hypercrite but when you see things happening that you know is impossible; but to believe through faith is absolutely incredible, even more so to feel God for yourself.
Ok so bad things happen in the world everyday and people die through natural disasters and wars but don't you think that God will have mercy upon whom He will have Mercy?. Children die awful deaths but that does not mean that their souls are lost. There is a God in this world and the saying goes that He is alive and well. Regardless of all other religions man needs to worship, adore, believe or hold something dear to his/her heart;and yes it may even be football. Someone previously mentioned the Dave Allen quote, may your God go with you which I always thought that it was strange coming ffrom a catholic, but hey not everyon e believes in the same thing. So what am I serving God for?. Me, I just wanna get to heaven and fly.
Last thing, on the film Men In Black, check out the ending when our world is pictured as a tiny dot in our solar system in our galaxy, in our universe in space in the middle of marble to be rolled in the next play of a game, How the mind works!!!!!

bassplayer

Have you ever considered preaching door to door? I'd happily close it in your face. :D

Originally posted by mojoworking
I hate to press the point, but yet gain you've evaded the question. This thread is not about what I believe in (nothing I can't touch, see or feel*, since you ask), it's about how and why people have faith in something which is wholly illogical, has never been proved and has caused/still causes more misery in the world than virtually anything you can name.

Of course, as a lightweight/part-time believer, you may feel that much of the above does not apply to you :)

*that's 'feel' in a tactile sense, by the way

So do you believe in love? hate?? beauty??? humour???? All illogical intangibles yet I doubt you would have any trouble believing in them?

Once again science is NOT a religion, its NOT the answer to all questions, its simply a tool to help explore the universe.

As a fervent agnostic :) I can't help but wonder whether the other rationalists (mojoworking, cyclone) and I are simply trying to probe the nature of what appears to be blind faith and superstition. Today no one can prove god, because the quality of proof demanded is so high.

Which is a shame. In the good old days, mysterious giant hands would write riddles on the wall, bushes would talk, gigantic chariots of fire would descend wheels whirling within wheels, and generally leaving everyone in no doubt whatsoever that god did exist, and was jolly interested in what was going on down there; to the point of taking a very active hand in the affairs of man.

Proof was everywhere if you could be bothered to look.

Now I have been a 'seeker' and had some pretty low moments in my life where faith in a higher purpose might really have helped, not to mention a warm aura of unconditional love from a higher being.

But when I repeatedly stared into the void, the void just stared back at me.

What other conclusion can I draw? There is only the void, and it its cold and empty out there. Your mileage may vary, but I can say with total certainty there is no god - at least not the omnibenevolent, omniscient one I've been told about.

It's not wrong or irrational to experience fear at the notion that you are entirely alone, nor is it unsual to find strategies for assuaging these feelings; the feelings are the same in all of us I believe, it's just the strategies that differ.

The degree to which you suffer from existential angst really depend on how much you think about it - and to what degree you salve yourself with beliefs about the unknowable.

Why do people even use the label 'god' (or any other) in the first place !?

This is just how I see things OK ...

There is only 'everything there is' and 'nothing' (throughout all dimensions / multiverses / existances).

Everything and nothing ... is all one in the same ... and we are a part (expression) of it.

The simple truth of a human being ... and all the many facets and layers of a person and our deep spiritual natures and connection with all that is and is not (everything and nothing) is one thing.

Religion ... is a totally seperate matter.

Important to distinguise between these two.

I am the ultimate divine authority of my own being and my own life and I have no need to defer to either man or 'god'.

Of course it is no where near as simple as this ... but a painter does not waste time explaining colour to a blind man ... and if you cannot see the magic and mystery of life within and all around you ... then fine ... I have no problem with that.

Come to an end of words ...

As soon as you take a single step down the road of using words to describe 'god' ... you are walking away from the very thing you attempt to describe.

A question for you:

Where is the dividing line between yourself and 'god' ... where does one end and the other begin !?



p.s. I believe the good dr. Neil was right in saying that science is limited in scope and is only a way to describe the world 'out there' that we see around us.

Sorry mate, all I got out of that was blah blah blah blah blah blah.

:rolleyes:

That's OK ... no problem Pauly :-)

Good and Evil definately does exist.... but God and Satan i find a little difficult to believe in or even contemplate.

If a belief in god makes some people happy well thats ok, isn't it?

It seems to me that there are 3 types of people out there.

When Christopher Columbus proclaimed that he believed the world was round, this was the responce:
Person 1: "Maybe you're right!"
Person 2: "Don't be crazy! I demand proof!"
Person 3: "So what?"

I would be the first person.

i believe in those things. They can be quantised, teased apart, measured and ultimately pinned down. There is no faith required on my part, it's not that i've been told about them and have to simply take someones word for it is it.

As Phan said, i'm not trying to attack anyone personally. I just find it difficult to see how someone can be rational and logical throughout most aspects of their life, but give up thinking for this one small section and believe something so illogical and odd.
Actually I can see how it's possible, and it mostly comes down to that existential angst (how often can you use that phrase?). It's a means of seeking comfort, a self-delusion that makes life easier to live. I'd like to think that by not needing such a delusion I see things more clearly. But maybe my logical mind has just rejected something that could make things easier for me because it's just too damned stupid to consider.

Originally posted by evildrneil
So do you believe in love? hate?? beauty??? humour???? All illogical intangibles yet I doubt you would have any trouble believing in them?

Once again science is NOT a religion, its NOT the answer to all questions, its simply a tool to help explore the universe.

I don't. Anyone who thinks about it logically would come to the same conclusion. All that adam and eve stuff and that Noah dude and his boat it's all nonsense. We developed from apes, end of story. God (IMO) originated many years ago when people didn't know any better and needed an explanation to our existence. Then it just kind of stuck.

I believe Jesus existed but was really just an early David Blaine, a very clever man capable of conning people and performing illusions.

Don't get me started on the bible in general, it was written by drunk sheppards, how can it be true. It is full of stories that passed around like chinese whispers becoming further and further from the truth.

I am happy for people to believe in a God if it makes them happy. Although I don't think many people can seriously believe the whole story. I think in a couple of generations believers will be muh rarer.

Originally posted by Cyclone
As Phan said, i'm not trying to attack anyone personally. I just find it difficult to see how someone can be rational and logical throughout most aspects of their life, but give up thinking for this one small section and believe something so illogical and odd.
As I said above, it's not about being irrational. It's about not dismissing the existance of things that do not seem logical. The world being round must have seemed totally illogical a few hundred years ago, but now we realise how obvious it is.

In my opinion, we shouldn't believe that anything you can't percieve doesn't exist, but keep an open mind and believe that things could exist until it is obvious that they don't.

Originally posted by Cyclone
i believe in those things. They can be quantised, teased apart, measured and ultimately pinned down. There is no faith required on my part, it's not that i've been told about them and have to simply take someones word for it is it.

Thats rubbish - how do you quantise and measure for example beauty? Everyones experience of beauty varies and in most cases can't even be pinned down by the person experiencing it! The same applies to pretty much everything in the emotional realm - they are just not amenable to scientific investigation and I for one am glad of that!

Originally posted by Cyclone As Phan said, i'm not trying to attack anyone personally. I just find it difficult to see how someone can be rational and logical throughout most aspects of their life, but give up thinking for this one small section and believe something so illogical and odd. Actually I can see how it's possible, and it mostly comes down to that existential angst (how often can you use that phrase?). It's a means of seeking comfort, a self-delusion that makes life easier to live. I'd like to think that by not needing such a delusion I see things more clearly. But maybe my logical mind has just rejected something that could make things easier for me because it's just too damned stupid to consider.

I'm not sure why you must constantly equate belief in some form of god to be equivilent to not thinking - I've posted on here a brief summery of what I believe - no one told me to believe that its an oppinion I have come to after much thought. I have no existential angst - I've not professed faith in an afterlife or even in a deity that constantly watches over everyone have I?

Oh and BTW the delusion that science can explain everything is as bad as any other and worse than many ;)

Does anyone believe in pure evil?

Originally posted by bonny
Does anyone believe in pure evil?

Hehehehe.....that's a whole new ball game....

Evil exists; I know it when I see it, but I appreciate that that's rather subjective. Pure evil is hard to define; how would you define it?

I believe that there are people with pure evil intent. What I'm not sure about is if they commit an evil act from which good comes, is that act still evil?

Joe

Originally posted by evildrneil
Thats rubbish - how do you quantise and measure for example beauty? Everyones experience of beauty varies and in most cases can't even be pinned down by the person experiencing it! The same applies to pretty much everything in the emotional realm - they are just not amenable to scientific investigation and I for one am glad of that!


You can't compare an opinion of someone's beauty to the existence of god. The best analogy to god would be Father Christmas - both are the main characters in extravagent and highly unbelievable fairy tales, neither can be proven to exist or not exist, and their legends live on when parents brainwash their kids into believing.

Originally posted by Jamie
Why do people even use the label 'god' (or any other) in the first place !?

This is just how I see things OK ...

There is only 'everything there is' and 'nothing' (throughout all dimensions / multiverses / existances).

Everything and nothing ... is all one in the same ... and we are a part (expression) of it.

The simple truth of a human being ... and all the many facets and layers of a person and our deep spiritual natures and connection with all that is and is not (everything and nothing) is one thing.

Religion ... is a totally seperate matter.

Important to distinguise between these two.

I am the ultimate divine authority of my own being and my own life and I have no need to defer to either man or 'god'.

Of course it is no where near as simple as this ... but a painter does not waste time explaining colour to a blind man ... and if you cannot see the magic and mystery of life within and all around you ... then fine ... I have no problem with that.

Come to an end of words ...

As soon as you take a single step down the road of using words to describe 'god' ... you are walking away from the very thing you attempt to describe.

A question for you:

Where is the dividing line between yourself and 'god' ... where does one end and the other begin !?



p.s. I believe the good dr. Neil was right in saying that science is limited in scope and is only a way to describe the world 'out there' that we see around us.

There is no dividing line between God and self... it's one and the same... we create every day... misery or joy.. it's entirely up to us.

Originally posted by evildrneil
I have no existential angst

that you know of

Originally posted by JoePritchard
I find it a deeply insulting cheap shot that you call me a 'part time' believer. My belief in God is a full time belief; it's just that I don't attend an organised church. I've noticed that your own approach during this whole debate has been to get very personal with people rather than accept that some people have views that differ from yours. My own faith is strong enough so that I don't feel the need to knock other people's beliefs.

Joe

No insult intended. By part-time, I simply meant you're not a fire & brimstone religious zealot. I deduced that from this:

Originally posted by JoePritchard
In my day to day life, by the way, I'm a total pragmatist; I believe in evolution, the Big Bang, quantumn physics; I don't believe in Biblical creation; I do not believe in the Old and New Testament as literal truths

Anyway...

<B>My experience of my God</B>
A difficult question to answer. I was not bought up in a religious household, and although Christened in to the Church of England as an infant rarely went to Church and even now have never been confirmed in to the Church. I was bought up with a fairly solid scientific education, although one of my aunts was an active member of her local Methodist Chapel. I was very interested in techie stuff as I grew up - my hobbies still include amateur radio, astronomy, mathematical diversions such as fractals, chaos theory, etc. I built a simple computer when I was about 15, estimated the distance from the earth to the moon, built radios, blew things up. That sort of stuff.

In fact, I was probably pretty much an agnostic / atheist, but the more I read and studied the more I realised that science was very much an ongoing investigation - BUT that many scientists seemed to be very dogmatic about what was and wasn't 'True'. In fact, some reminded me of the Creationist churchmen in the US, or the Inquisition of the Vatican in Rennaisance Italy. So I started to be less dogmatic and more open minded and questioning in my own beliefs, and did some reading of Christian philosophy and theology - rather than go to Church and accept a new Dogma, I just wanted to see what the fuss was all about..

Originally posted by bonny
Does anyone believe in pure evil?

Let's not get back to Maggie Thatcher again, please! :)

Originally posted by mojoworking
Let's not get back to Maggie Thatcher again, please! :)

Oh no, the biggest of all evils is to stop taxpayers funding mining charities. ;)

Originally posted by t020
You can't compare an opinion of someone's beauty to the existence of god. The best analogy to god would be Father Christmas - both are the main characters in extravagent and highly unbelievable fairy tales, neither can be proven to exist or not exist, and their legends live on when parents brainwash their kids into believing.
How do you know Father Christmas doesn't exsist?

Originally posted by Sidla
How do you know Father Christmas doesn't exsist?

That's my point......

Originally posted by Banksia
There is no dividing line between God and self... it's one and the same... we create every day... misery or joy.. it's entirely up to us.

Yep I know ...

We are 'god' ... we are 'IT' ... more precious than we can ever know.

The thing you say about creating our own reality I agree 100% with Banskia.

<poet_philosoper_mode>

It's like rain falling on a pond, making ripples on the surface. The events of your life are like those ripples. The surface of the water changes shape, but the volume of water (contained in pond and rain drops) remains the same.

</poet_philosoper_mode>

OK ... so I'm not that good a poet !!

:p

Originally posted by Jamie
No way !!

Jimi Hendrix blows him away ...

One thing that amuses me is ... why does everyone refer to 'god' as 'he' ... do they expect some old guy with a white beard !?

Media / Films are to blame for that one I assume.

Originally posted by Pauly


Another thing that really gets me is when I read snippets of text in religious leaflets that get posted through the door that say 'God wants you to do this' and God wants you to do that'. Excuse me? :rolleyes: If that's not an attempt at controlling people I don't know what is.

Thou shalt not??? In the words of Billy Connolly "We f***ing SHALL pal!" :D

The bottom line is that you don't need religion in order to be a good, pleasant person and be friendly and decent with others. I manage that quite well without it and it annoys me when people tell me I need some god in my life to make me complete.

/rant :D

Agreed - If god is so great he/her/it can do it it's self!! ;)

It's all a bit vague and wishy washy, isn't it? The believers say "we believe in god, but we don't know why, or what he is, or what he looks like".

They can't satisfactorily explain the existence of a god. Their arguments have more holes than a string vest, yet they get defensive and a little aggressive when put on the spot.

They're a bit like your dad used to be when you asked why you had to do what he wanted: "because I say so"

Originally posted by mojoworking
It's all a bit vague and wishy washy, isn't it? The believers say "we believe in god, but we don't know why, or what he is, or what he looks like".

They can't satisfactorily explain the existence of a god. Their arguments have more holes than a string vest, yet they get defensive and a little aggressive when put on the spot.

They're a bit like your dad used to be when you asked why you had to do what he wanted: "because I say so"

I think there are elements of the defensive and aggressive on both sides of the debate here, mojoworking. You seem quite keen to poke fun and generally belittle others beliefs.

As I've said, it is a matter of faith and on such things believers and non-believers will probably never agree.

If it's so important that you be seen as right, I'll take the Galiileo approach and say 'OK, whatever you say.'. Happy? :)

Joe

Originally posted by JoePritchard
I think there are elements of the defensive and aggressive on both sides of the debate here, mojoworking. You seem quite keen to poke fun and generally belittle others beliefs.

As I've said, it is a matter of faith and on such things believers and non-believers will probably never agree.

If it's so important that you be seen as right, I'll take the Galiileo approach and say 'OK, whatever you say.'. Happy? :)

Joe

That's where we differ Joe. It matters little to me whether I'm seen as right or not. I don't have an axe to grind because I'm not trying to defend an increasingly shaky premise.

I was simply looking for reasons why people believe in god. It seems there are no logical reasons after all.

I’m not familiar with the Galileo quote you use, but he did also say this: “All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them”.

Is God a Name ? a Title ? or a Job description ??.

it's not rubbish. you can measure someones brain waves when they see something that they consider to be beautiful. From that you can tell when other people are experiencing the same feeling. Emotion is just electro-chemical activity in our brains.

Beauty itself is an abstract concept. But it's possible to determine what factors affect how beautiful something is. If it's a face then there are ways to measure it. If it's a landscape then we know what different factors affect it.
There are going to be personal factors involved, but if we had the technology to measure every aspect of someones brain then we could model it and say exactly what they would think was beautiful.
And that's the hardest of the things you said, beauty is an opinion, the others are just emotional responses, visible on a cat scan in real time.

Edited to add a bit.
The reason i equate believe in god to none thinking is that that is what faith is. It's the demonstration of non rational thought, a delusion. You don't believe in father christmas right? You did before you were smart enough to question it, no-one has provided you any evidence for the non existance of father christmas i presume (since such proof is impossible)... So what happened to your faith in father christmas? If that dissolved as your mind became more aware and more rational why the continuing belief in a different although broadly similar mythical figure?

Originally posted by evildrneil
Thats rubbish - how do you quantise and measure for example beauty? Everyones experience of beauty varies and in most cases can't even be pinned down by the person experiencing it! The same applies to pretty much everything in the emotional realm - they are just not amenable to scientific investigation and I for one am glad of that!



I'm not sure why you must constantly equate belief in some form of god to be equivilent to not thinking - I've posted on here a brief summery of what I believe - no one told me to believe that its an oppinion I have come to after much thought. I have no existential angst - I've not professed faith in an afterlife or even in a deity that constantly watches over everyone have I?

Oh and BTW the delusion that science can explain everything is as bad as any other and worse than many ;)

Originally posted by Sidla
How do you know Father Christmas doesn't exsist?
Off course he does, how else is it we get a nice diner on Xhristmas day and presies under the tree ?

Cyclone and mojo, do you accept that there is a possibility that the universe was created by a God or some kind of higher intelligence?

Originally posted by Cyclone
it's not rubbish. you can measure someones brain waves when they see something that they consider to be beautiful. From that you can tell when other people are experiencing the same feeling. Emotion is just electro-chemical activity in our brains.

Yes you can measure someones brain waves - however all you have there is something that you can correlate with someones statements as to beuaty - it does not tell you anything about the concept of beauty does it? And brains have this usefull little facility called plasticity which means that the the localisation of functions in one persons brain do not neccesarilly carry across to any other persons...

Beauty itself is an abstract concept. But it's possible to determine what factors affect how beautiful something is. If it's a face then there are ways to measure it. If it's a landscape then we know what different factors affect it.
There are going to be personal factors involved, but if we had the technology to measure every aspect of someones brain then we could model it and say exactly what they would think was beautiful.
And that's the hardest of the things you said, beauty is an opinion, the others are just emotional responses, visible on a cat scan in real time.


That implies a standardisation of beauty - which is just not the case what person A finds beautiful is not neccesarilly what person B finds beautiful so I'm afraid your argument falls down a little there. As to meausing and modelling the brain to determine theres a couple of points there a) you would first need to determine a persons concepts of beauty and THEN model the brain based on your knowledge and b) nothing like that has been done - looks like your blind faith in science as the arbiter of all things is taking over ;)

Originally posted by Sidla
Cyclone and mojo, do you accept that there is a possibility that the universe was created by a God or some kind of higher intelligence?

yes, if you accept that it is equally likely that a fat jolly man delivers all the christmas presents in the world every year, and that my statement about being the lord of the universe is possibly correct.

I was thinking about a specific study, reported on in new scientist.
Beauty is a concept anyway, do you believe that god is just a concept? With our as yet imperfect scientific understanding of the mind and the brain it stands to reason that there will be functions of that system that we can't fully explain.
It doesn't mean that we won't ever explain them, nor does it mean that we should put them down to some strange mystical force. We just accept that we don't know the answers yet.

Originally posted by evildrneil
Yes you can measure someones brain waves - however all you have there is something that you can correlate with someones statements as to beuaty - it does not tell you anything about the concept of beauty does it? And brains have this usefull little facility called plasticity which means that the the localisation of functions in one persons brain do not neccesarilly carry across to any other persons...



That implies a standardisation of beauty - which is just not the case what person A finds beautiful is not neccesarilly what person B finds beautiful so I'm afraid your argument falls down a little there. As to meausing and modelling the brain to determine theres a couple of points there a) you would first need to determine a persons concepts of beauty and THEN model the brain based on your knowledge and b) nothing like that has been done - looks like your blind faith in science as the arbiter of all things is taking over ;)

Originally posted by Jamie
Yep I know ...

We are 'god' ... we are 'IT' ... more precious than we can ever know.

The thing you say about creating our own reality I agree 100% with Banskia.

<poet_philosoper_mode>

It's like rain falling on a pond, making ripples on the surface. The events of your life are like those ripples. The surface of the water changes shape, but the volume of water (contained in pond and rain drops) remains the same.

</poet_philosoper_mode>

OK ... so I'm not that good a poet !!
Thanks Jamie ! at last someone who understands fully what I'm talking about. Have you read "Conversations with God", I would be interested to know.

:p

Originally posted by mojoworking
It's all a bit vague and wishy washy, isn't it? The believers say "we believe in god, but we don't know why, or what he is, or what he looks like".

They can't satisfactorily explain the existence of a god. Their arguments have more holes than a string vest, yet they get defensive and a little aggressive when put on the spot.

They're a bit like your dad used to be when you asked why you had to do what he wanted: "because I say so"

Deary me ! are you spitting the dummy Mojo ?
It seems you are the one who is aggressive toward people who don't agree with your views. Whether you believe in god is of no consequence, he/it /she believes in you.
I know thats the last thing you want to hear, sorry !
I'll sit back and wait for the tirade now.

Nope I haven't read conversations with god ... is it good?

Who is the author? ... god? (joke!!).

I tend to go more on what I feel for myself inside myself kinda thing ... than anything I read in books (although I do read books).

In my experience ... 'god' is not something that the intellect part of us human beings can grasp.

Asking what is 'god' is like asking what the colour blue sounds like ...

As a human being I experience myself is so many different ways ... including logic and reason as well as spiritual stuff ... and it is all valid and wonderful.

But for sure ... the logic and reasoning part of me (although I love is so much being a games programmer) is such a small part of who and what I am ...

I can't even begin to say how magical it all is. Just to look up and see the stars. How utterly profound that there is actually something out there. Be it "out there" or "in here" ... who knows !?

To the closed minded all I can say is don't believe any of that religious mumbo jumbo. Just experience for yourself the fullness of you're very own being (in your own sweet time of course).

You are a flower about to open ... hehe.

Originally posted by Banksia
Deary me ! are you spitting the dummy Mojo ?
It seems you are the one who is aggressive toward people who don't agree with your views. Whether you believe in god is of no consequence, he/it /she believes in you.
I know thats the last thing you want to hear, sorry !
I'll sit back and wait for the tirade now.

No, not spitting the dummy and I certainly wasn't getting aggressive. I don't know where you got that from. Perhaps you'd like to point out exactly where that happened?

Just trying to get a sensible answer from those who run their lives on blind faith, myths and fairy tales.

Dear mojo ... angel ... you are a beautiful flower about to open up and fully experience who you are ... what colour would you like to be ... you choose !?

Originally posted by Jamie
Dear mojo ... angel ... you are a beautiful flower about to open up and fully experience who you are ... what colour would you like to be ... you choose !?

Oo-er missus!

You are awful...but I like you!!!

Originally posted by mojoworking
You are awful...but I like you!!!

That's becasue I am 'god' ... but it's ok ... so are you !!!

How can you not believe in your self !? *tut* ... ;)

Originally posted by Jamie
That's becasue I am 'god' ... but it's ok ... so are you !!!

How can you not believe in your self !? *tut* ... ;)

What are you on about?

Originally posted by mojoworking
What are you on about?

Well mojo ...

I am saying that we (people) are all a part of 'all that is' (i.e. god) ... so we are all god ... and 'god' is not seperate to who we are.

Of course ... 'god' is a redundant word ... and has no more signifigance (at least to me) than any other word.

In my way of looking at it ... people are god ... and there is no seperate 'god' being (inorganic / discoporate beings are another matter) 'out there' or 'in here' that is not actually you (i.e. your higher self) ...

As you seem to be saying that you do not believe in 'god' ... well ... going by my defenition ... that equates to saying you don't believe in yourself.

But not believing in yourself is just as valid as believing in yourself.

Just ignore me ... it's easier.

the only problem with that explanation jamie is that it doesn't match up with anyone elses idea of "god", so it makes it impossible for us to discuss it.
God is not a word that represents everything in the universe including us. It represents a diety, a single, omniscient, self-aware and entirely seperate entity with mystical powers.

If you want to talk about people being part of the universe, then fine, but don't confuse it by misusing a common word.

yes i do believe in god, father , son ,and holy spirit, ive been born again for the last twenty years or so,,,,,,,,,and when youve seen the healing power of god working on a loved one as i have then you realise how much he loves you..........................

Originally posted by cheeky boy
yes i do believe in god, father , son ,and holy spirit,

Three (or is it four) for the price of one! How does that break down? I mean, how do you know which is which?


Originally posted by cheeky boy
ive been born again for the last twenty years or so,,,,,,,,,and when youve seen the healing power of god working on a loved one as i have then you realise how much he loves you..........................

I know I shouldn't ask, but please elaborate.

Originally posted by cheeky boy
when youve seen the healing power of god working on a loved one as i have then you realise how much he loves you..........................

I had a friend that truely believed in the powers of 'God'

But what i couldnt understand was the fact that she whole heartedly believed in 'God' almost lived by the bible as if it were her manual of living (so to speak... lol)

Now heres the odd bit... She would drink herself stupid whilst taking tablets to do away with herself... she had also been known to use razor blades on her wrists...

She called me on several ocassions after she had been drinking an taken tablets... The first time she called me... she was in such a state i had to call the police... Her boyfriend was apparently with her at all times but seemed to do nothing about it... Hence why i got hold of the police... It was hard work as she lived miles away from me... I didnt know what to do for the best... She has since been in & out of hospital 5 times... We are no longer in contact with one another... Her choice sadly... We had a falling out over 'God' hmmm... Tis a shame as i had known her since my infant years...

I often thought tho... Surely if she believed that much an was living for 'God' as one of his children... Why would she try to do this to herself... Surely she would be going against 'God' in the fact of taking her own life... whereas i thought their believe was that their life was always within the hands of 'God'

I am not a believer myself... but whoever chooses to be that is their choice... I dont hold it against anyone...

Just dont preach... :)

father (God) son(Jesus) Holy spirit.. sent after jesus died and rose into heaven..............one person 3 entities.like an egg the shell. the yoke. the white..........................

youve got a nice user name my friend,,,,,,,,,yes its very difficult when u see friends like yours going through life believing in god and showing all the signs of being a christian, and then trying to kill themselves, a christian life is not an easy life, and thats where faith comes in, we all fail in one thing or another daily.
but knowing that god will forgive us if we ask,then that should be the way forward, your friend is on a ladder a step up and two down, ive been there got the t shirt.
not tried to kill myself but really mess up regulary, just have to get up and ask forgiveness and belive

Originally posted by Cyclone
the only problem with that explanation jamie is that it doesn't match up with anyone elses idea of "god", so it makes it impossible for us to discuss it.

Well Cyclone ... I am sure it doesn't mis-match with other people's ideas re: god and I don't think it's impossible to discuss anything I've said there.

Also ... I did say earlier in this thread that perhaps we should agree on what we mean by 'god' before debating further.

Originally posted by Cyclone
God is not a word that represents everything in the universe including us. It represents a diety, a single, omniscient, self-aware and entirely seperate entity with mystical powers.

As for a single omniscient self-aware being. Yes, that's what god is, 'everything' (and nothing).

your right, you have to agree what a term means before any meaningful discussion can take place.

I don't understand what you think it means. Is it a single entity? If it is, how are we all part of it? If we are, then by definition it's not single is it?

Originally posted by Cyclone
your right, you have to agree what a term means before any meaningful discussion can take place.

I don't understand what you think it means. Is it a single entity? If it is, how are we all part of it? If we are, then by definition it's not single is it?

Difficult (impossible) to understand (by understand I mean intellectually 'grasp') what it is ... and even more difficult to communicate to another person in words.

The word 'entity' is misleading because it implies a created being (which would be something ... and exist in some context / nothing).

Can you imagine 'everything' and 'nothing' at the same time (throughout all time) to be one in the same thing ... existing and non-existing ?

b-------t thATSWHAT IT IS

Sorry Brooksy come again with that!

this whole subject is a total waste of time,firstly as anyone actually studied the history of the planet we call earth. 65000000 years ago wasnt it running wild with dinosaurs, when did god actually make is entrance "whoops"2004 years ago. get real folks it may bring comfort 2 people but does anyone realy believe in this crap.

Originally posted by brooksy
when did god actually make is entrance "whoops"2004 years ago. get real folks it may bring comfort 2 people but does anyone realy believe in this crap.
Nobody's claiming the world wasn't around before Jesus, not even the bible.

interesting thing, holy books like the bible and the koran.

Are they the revealed word of god? If not, then surely they must be fallible, if they are they must be infallible.

If they are fallible, what possible use are they as holy books, how does one distinguish between the dross and the pearls?

No.

http://www.bozzetto.com/Flash/Life.htm

Originally posted by Bookey
Media / Films are to blame for that one I assume.

I think you'll find that the Jews are to blame. They created Jehovah (the same God the Christians later adopted) and Jehovah was male. Sorry, if this offends anyone, but I didn't write the Jewish Book of Law.

I remember seeing a poster somewhere that said "God is Love",
If that is the case then I have touched the face of God for I have truly loved and been loved in my life.
Love is an all consuming fire, it devours every negative emotion and removes doubt, It propels the soul, mind and the body to a greater place.
To go beyond this is to reach a special place, a place by invitation only.
Those that visit never forget and those that visit begin to understand!

Originally posted by Jamie
Nope I haven't read conversations with god ... is it good?

Who is the author? ... god? (joke!!).

I tend to go more on what I feel for myself inside myself kinda thing ... than anything I read in books (although I do read books).

In my experience ... 'god' is not something that the intellect part of us human beings can grasp.

Asking what is 'god' is like asking what the colour blue sounds like ...

As a human being I experience myself is so many different ways ... including logic and reason as well as spiritual stuff ... and it is all valid and wonderful.

But for sure ... the logic and reasoning part of me (although I love is so much being a games programmer) is such a small part of who and what I am ...

I can't even begin to say how magical it all is. Just to look up and see the stars. How utterly profound that there is actually something out there. Be it "out there" or "in here" ... who knows !?

To the closed minded all I can say is don't believe any of that religious mumbo jumbo. Just experience for yourself the fullness of you're very own being (in your own sweet time of course).

You are a flower about to open ... hehe.

The author is a guy called Neale Donald Walsch and yes the writings were inspired by god, whoever and whatever that is. Inspiration from deep within himself.. yes very possible. We are much more than our logical reasoning minds as you already understand. I agree with everything you say, god is knowing, god is experiencing, god is being. God is the up and the down, the hot and the cold, the seen and the unseen, the "out there" and "in here" as you put it. Simple really eh ?

Originally posted by cheeky boy
youve got a nice user name my friend,,,,,,,,,yes its very difficult when u see friends like yours going through life believing in god and showing all the signs of being a christian, and then trying to kill themselves, a christian life is not an easy life, and thats where faith comes in, we all fail in one thing or another daily.
but knowing that god will forgive us if we ask,then that should be the way forward, your friend is on a ladder a step up and two down, ive been there got the t shirt.
not tried to kill myself but really mess up regulary, just have to get up and ask forgiveness and belive

Thank you for the compliment on my name but i guess its one of gods little helpers!

That is too what she told me... she would be forgiven... I really dont understand why someone should do such a thing only to ask for forgiveness...

I think she did most of this for attention and still do think that... Yeah could be a nasty thing of me to say... But just to ask god forgiveness to do over & over again... Surely a family is more important than 'god'...

I am only on this thread to try and understand my former friend... as i am not a real believer in this kinda thing...

What happens in our lives happens for a reason... I have always liked to believe that should something go wrong its happened that way cause it was ment to... or should something go right...

Were all here for a purpose...

Live life to the Max! - Life is far too short!

yes i would agree with you i think, about attention, and as for forgiveness its the only way forward for christians,,,to ask forgiveness and (then), turn away from the suiside attempts.
i know its not easy to understand christianty and god, but its not until you come to know (god, jesus)as your saviour that it becomes clearer..................anyhow im not preeching to you, and thanks 4 replying...............................ron

To Pauly, I ain't trying to preach to you or anyone, just quoting the facts. Think about it, it all adds up, but then again you have your opinions and I would have to respect them just as you would have to respect others.
Sorry for the delay in replying to you, but hey.

Originally posted by cheeky boy
yes i would agree with you i think, about attention, and as for forgiveness its the only way forward for christians,,,to ask forgiveness and (then), turn away from the suiside attempts.
i know its not easy to understand christianty and god, but its not until you come to know (god, jesus)as your saviour that it becomes clearer..................anyhow im not preeching to you, and thanks 4 replying...............................ron

Your welcome to the reply... Its ok i didnt see it as a preach... more like someone helping another out.... I just wanted to try an understand where my mate was coming from... In the fact that to have such a believe... you would also believe in yourself as one of gods children...

Thanx for your replies... it is a tough one i guess...

Cheers S x

Originally posted by Banksia
Simple really eh ?

It's the simple things that had the hardest to understand Banksia !! ... hehe.

just wondering which specific bits in here were supposed to be the facts???

Originally posted by bassplayer
Yes I do beieve that there is a God and regardless of what is going on in the world He cares. Remember that it is quoted that the devil, satan is the prince of the power of the air so please realise that all things are not totally controlled by God. If man takes it upon himself to do certain things he will do them regardless sometimes of the cost, pain, suffering, longlasting effect to other people.
The church that I go to is an Apostlic Church where you actually see God in action through healing, prayer and the workings of the Spirit. (Holy Ghost, Holy Spirit)
To deny something that I have seen would make me a hypercrite but when you see things happening that you know is impossible; but to believe through faith is absolutely incredible, even more so to feel God for yourself.
Ok so bad things happen in the world everyday and people die through natural disasters and wars but don't you think that God will have mercy upon whom He will have Mercy?. Children die awful deaths but that does not mean that their souls are lost. There is a God in this world and the saying goes that He is alive and well. Regardless of all other religions man needs to worship, adore, believe or hold something dear to his/her heart;and yes it may even be football. Someone previously mentioned the Dave Allen quote, may your God go with you which I always thought that it was strange coming ffrom a catholic, but hey not everyon e believes in the same thing. So what am I serving God for?. Me, I just wanna get to heaven and fly.
Last thing, on the film Men In Black, check out the ending when our world is pictured as a tiny dot in our solar system in our galaxy, in our universe in space in the middle of marble to be rolled in the next play of a game, How the mind works!!!!!

bassplayer

Originally posted by Sidla
The problem I have really, is the people who are saying catagorically that they do not believe in God are dismissing all posibility that one may exsist. You seem to think it's a stupid idea.

The fact that the entire universe emerged from a big bang billions of years ago is a pretty daft idea too, but I bet you're not so quick to dismiss it.

That's what I used to think, until I read this verse in the Koran:

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of Creation) before We split them apart? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

Koran 21: 30

So Koranic mention of the Big Bang theory, over 1400 years ago. Now how was anybody supposed to know this at the time, except by divine guidance?

The second sentence is also noteworthy, in that the bodies of humans and animals are made up of a large mass of water.

However, what I find most interesting about the above verse is who God is addressing. Is He addressing the Muslims? No. Is He addressing all of Mankind? No.

He is challenging the Unbelievers. Those who see His signs and refuse to believe Him.

Mojo, t020, and the rest - the ball's in your court :)

Originally posted by Jamie
It's the simple things that had the hardest to understand Banksia !! ... hehe.
Yes, it's the simplicity that folk look past because they EXPECT IT to be complex. :loopy:

i'm sure that just like nostradamus' prophecies you can pretty much read anything you like into something that vague.

You have to wonder, why did all this godly communication go on way back in days of yor, but these days the godly airwaves are strangely silent.
Just speak unto me as a voice in my head and i'll either take myself to the psychiatric ward, or give up my godless scientific ways. Not too much to ask for all powerful being???

Originally posted by Abdul
That's what I used to think, until I read this verse in the Koran:

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of Creation) before We split them apart? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

Koran 21: 30

So Koranic mention of the Big Bang theory, over 1400 years ago. Now how was anybody supposed to know this at the time, except by divine guidance?

The second sentence is also noteworthy, in that the bodies of humans and animals are made up of a large mass of water.

However, what I find most interesting about the above verse is who God is addressing. Is He addressing the Muslims? No. Is He addressing all of Mankind? No.

He is challenging the Unbelievers. Those who see His signs and refuse to believe Him.

Mojo, t020, and the rest - the ball's in your court :)

Originally posted by Abdul
That's what I used to think, until I read this verse in the Koran:

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of Creation) before We split them apart? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

Koran 21: 30

So Koranic mention of the Big Bang theory, over 1400 years ago. Now how was anybody supposed to know this at the time, except by divine guidance?

You're deluded if you think the Koran is mentioning Big Bang theory :). Thats the sort of theory of creation everyone comes up with when they ask themselves "how did we get here"? If you work from first principles

And it was written by a human being, not god. The last thing God wrote (IIRC) was 'Mene Mene Tekel Upharsin' - And that wasn't especially illuminating - not sure if that is the same God as the Koran, some people seem to think so, in which case he already has an identity problem (or there is more than one God)

If the Big Bang theory turns out to be wrong (already yesterday, cosmologists are looking at having to redefine the age of the universe - more disturbing yet amazing info from hubble on the farthest sensable galaxies) how will the Koran cope?

The bible creation story is also remarkably similar - Light from Dark (which is actually much more in tune with Big Bang theory - i.e the murky universe built up a critical strength of starlight and atoms between stars were split and the whole universe literally cleared, allowing the light to shine far and wide)

Presumably it will simply be reinterpreted to reveal it was actually describing the next theory of the origins of the universe.

Lucretius mentions 'atomic theory' in quite some detail in 55 BCE. He didn't claim divine intervention, he just had a head on him and worked from 'flawed' first principles - the conclusions he reached are ultimately wrong, but it just shows you how right you can be without actually having a clue.

As far as I can see, all that God offers people is a certain sense of calm and a haven in a violent world, and cold unfeeling universe. He doesn't confer any direct advantages that are tangible to non-believers that could ever be demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt.

This was not always the case. Back in the good old days, tribes in the desert etc. God was striding about and telling folk what to do (and it was some pretty weird stuff he was saying too).

If God was still doing that today, I think you would find that most people would believe in God, in the same way as they believe in Dogs or Paris or The moon. i.e - obviously there.

Again - Lucretius on the existence of God, 5 centuries before the Koran - and marginally pre- new testament. Pity so much of his stuff was lost with the successive sacking of Alexandria. One can only wonder where we could be now if that library had survived.

This terror, then, this darkness of the mind,
Not sunrise with its flaring spokes of light,
Nor glittering arrows of morning can disperse,
But only Nature's aspect and her law,
Which, teaching us, hath this exordium:
Nothing from nothing ever yet was born.
Fear holds dominion over mortality
Only because, seeing in land and sky
So much the cause whereof no wise they know,
Men think Divinities are working there.
Meantime, when once we know from nothing still
Nothing can be create, we shall divine
More clearly what we seek: those elements
From which alone all things created are,
And how accomplished by no tool of Gods.
Suppose all sprang from all things: any kind
Might take its origin from any thing,
No fixed seed required.


And God is about the least simple explanation for anything bar the uttery paranormal which defies explanation by definition.

Originally posted by JoePritchard
Hehehehe.....that's a whole new ball game....

Evil exists; I know it when I see it, but I appreciate that that's rather subjective. Pure evil is hard to define; how would you define it?

I believe that there are people with pure evil intent. What I'm not sure about is if they commit an evil act from which good comes, is that act still evil?

Joe

Pure evil would mean that you were born evil. So I suppose you would have to believe that a new born baby could be evil.

I personally don't agree that anyone is pure evil, it is outside factors that create evil actions. NAture gives us a quality of paper, nuture puts the writing on the page.

I personally don't belive in "god" in the general sense. I do believe , however, that there are higher forces that we are not fully aware of. I believe we have an etheric body and in turn, a soul, we are connected to everything around and beyond us.
After all energy cannot just dissapear, it changes form.

So my "god" would be the cosmos.

As for religion. I believe Christ did exist and was a man who made a large impact. I don't beleive this would happen again due to the mass media and many forms of communication. He was talked about like chinese whispers from community to community. So it was easy to embelish.
Same goes for all religions as far as I am concerned, the person/man/woman they centre around most probably existed but the writings are metaphors and stories that have been embelished over time.

God is a part of everything, so you can call it what you like, we can only speak of god in terms of what we know, and that isn't much.
We may never even find out as we are only one small part in time and evolution. There may not be "a point" to our existence but we still have a responsibility to the part we play.

Originally posted by Warreng
well do you, or dont you?


It doesn't matter.

Your own belief is the most important.

I'm me, I'm now and that's all.

Yes i do , and have experienced God too in a powerful way a few times.

Coggy

I met an atheist the other day. He was also dyslexic and an insomniac. He told me hed lie awake at night wondering if there was a dog..........cloakroom here we come!


On Gard

Originally posted by Abdul
He is challenging the Unbelievers. Those who see His signs and refuse to believe Him.


But conviction can be a dangerous thing. GW Bush is a convinced Christian fundamentalist and the Taliban are convinced Muslim fundamentalists.

If God made us as we are then God planted in those of us who doubt God's existence the need of proof....Signs ? - what signs ?

On the subject of Creation I found an interesting Islamic view here...

http://www.submission.org/islam/introduction.html

I think we all belive in God in our own way, I know I do, although i don't go to church, i don't like to listen to Preachers that tell me they can speak to God for me, like they have " An IN" with him and I don't, I can do my own talking to him on my own time, don't need the middle man.

I think that religeon has been responsible for more death and suffering than anything else in history.
We dont need all this religeon,all we need is to lead good lives.

Originally posted by royjames
I think that religeon has been responsible for more death and suffering than anything else in history.
We dont need all this religeon,all we need is to lead good lives.
Well now you have reached the nub of the matter.

I think plague, malnutrition and disease have been responsible for more deaths than religion, btw.

Without a deity or moral imperative derived from religious doctrine or praxis, how do you decide what constitutes good and evil?

Utilitarianism?
Enlightened Self Interest?
Tit for Tat?
Might is Right?

or do you adopt a position of total moral relativism, and say that good and evil depends on intention and circumstances?

It's a tough one.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Well now you have reached the nub of the matter.

I think plague, malnutrition and disease have been responsible for more deaths than religion, btw.

Without a deity or moral imperative derived from religious doctrine or praxis, how do you decide what constitutes good and evil?

Utilitarianism?
Enlightened Self Interest?
Tit for Tat?
Might is Right?

or do you adopt a position of total moral relativism, and say that good and evil depends on intention and circumstances?

It's a tough one.

At the moment I quite like the concept of atheistic virtue ethics mesen, although I could just as easily argue a case for utilitarianism or some other theory. But it's a toughie. Most moral theories have their merits, and their flaws.

i belive in god everything will be destroyed when the time comes im a christian and i belive.

How can you believe in something that isnt real?

Next your gonna tell me you believe in the Minotaur/3 headed dog/Medusa etc.

They are all the same thing - A MYTH. They are not real and never have been.

I have to confess to being a 'just in case' agnostic, but my overiding feeling is that 'God' (in all His modern forms) is just the lastest iteration of that self same safety net required by the human condition.

we are all part of god
god is in us all
which makes each one of us a god,
we take control of our own destiny.

you can shape you own future into anything if you have faith in yourself- that makes us all god.

Originally posted by Tony
I have to confess to being a 'just in case' agnostic, but my overiding feeling is that 'God' (in all His modern forms) is just the lastest iteration of that self same safety net required by the human condition.

I think that it was the mathematician Blaise Pascal who denied the existence of God all his life and then was bought in to the Church when on his deathbed.

The story goes that he'd looked at it statistically- if God didn't exist, then no harm in joining the Church, just a waste of his little remaining time. If God DID exist and he joined the Church, well, everlasting life. If God DID exist and he didn't join the Church then he was Purgatory or Hell bound.

So....he concluded that his best gamble was to believe and join.

Joe

I believe there is something but i don't like the term 'religion' in my view religion is used far too often as an excuse for terrorism and war

Originally posted by JoePritchard
I think that it was the mathematician Blaise Pascal who denied the existence of God all his life and then was bought in to the Church when on his deathbed.

The story goes that he'd looked at it statistically- if God didn't exist, then no harm in joining the Church, just a waste of his little remaining time. If God DID exist and he joined the Church, well, everlasting life. If God DID exist and he didn't join the Church then he was Purgatory or Hell bound.

So....he concluded that his best gamble was to believe and join.

Joe

To me that actually sounds more like 'pretending to believe' rather than any deep rooted conviction type of belief.

Originally posted by Jamie
To me that actually sounds more like 'pretending to believe' rather than any deep rooted conviction type of belief.

Totally agree, jamie!

Very expedient!

Joe :)

Originally posted by Marianne
I believe there is something but i don't like the term 'religion' in my view religion is used far too often as an excuse for terrorism and war

Same here. I think deep down we all believe in a "supreme being", whether we admit it or not.

I sometimes pray when I have no other option, although I don't know who I'm praying to.. Sometimes you have to.

I also believe everything happens for a reason, so I never look back on anything wishing it to be different, and I have no regrets about anything because I do genuinely believe it was meant to be!.. Whatever "it" is..

thats a bit presumptious of you, I could just as easily say that deep down we all know that no diety exists and that we're all alone, whether we wish it or not.

If god made us in his own image, we certainly returned the favour - A Famous Bloke

Originally posted by JoePritchard
I think that it was the mathematician Blaise Pascal who denied the existence of God all his life and then was bought in to the Church when on his deathbed.

The story goes that he'd looked at it statistically- if God didn't exist, then no harm in joining the Church, just a waste of his little remaining time. If God DID exist and he joined the Church, well, everlasting life. If God DID exist and he didn't join the Church then he was Purgatory or Hell bound.

So....he concluded that his best gamble was to believe and join.

Joe

Harry Hill said this on Room 101. He was putting God in, by the way. ANyway, it's amusing, but stupid, because if you were only believeing in God to get into heaven, then accorcding to doctrine you wouldn't go anyway, because God knows everything.

I'm kinda of the belief that if enough people believe in something, it makes it real. I'd like to think there is a higher power, and i think most people do... i'm really not into organised religion though, i think that is the devils work.

Originally posted by noseyrosie
Harry Hill said this on Room 101. He was putting God in, by the way. ANyway, it's amusing, but stupid, because if you were only believeing in God to get into heaven, then accorcding to doctrine you wouldn't go anyway, because God knows everything.

Dunno about Harry Hill and Room 101 - jut reporting an old and boring anecdote!

My own belief in God is pretty solid and I'm trying not to get in this debate again, so toodle-pip for now!

Joe

so at what point did the the balance tip in favour of the earth being round rather than flat, or does it only work for specific things, ie. ones for which no proof can be offered.

Originally posted by Snook
I'm kinda of the belief that if enough people believe in something, it makes it real. I'd like to think there is a higher power, and i think most people do... i'm really not into organised religion though, i think that is the devils work.

I beleive he has to exist because think bout it, how did we come here otherwise?

Originally posted by Cyclone
so at what point did the the balance tip in favour of the earth being round rather than flat, or does it only work for specific things, ie. ones for which no proof can be offered.

The world was flat in the minds of those people. Depends if you are limited to the very defined idea of what is real. If in the minds of a whole country the Earth is flat, then this is the reality of those people.

I believe that the presence of a higher being has been proven in many different ways, usually though science, but if you don't want to believe you never will, no matter what the evidence.

Originally posted by cleopatra87
I beleive he has to exist because think bout it, how did we come here otherwise?

Evolution

Originally posted by cleopatra87
I beleive he has to exist because think bout it, how did we come here otherwise?

A spaceship?

ermm, no, they were just wrong. You've somehow elevated a group of people being wrong to having the power to change reality. I'm fairly sure that a group of people can be just as wrong as a single person. Reality just is, we are trying to understand it all the time and a lot of the time we get things wrong. We'd be pretty arrogant to believe that reality changes to match our wrongheaded perceptions.

Show me this scientific proof and i'll convert immediately. I don't want or not want to believe, I make my judgement based on the balance of evidence and am prepared to change my judgement if new evidence is presented (valid evidence, not rather hollow logical arguments like 'how else did we get here', the lack of understanding of something doesn't mean we should just invent some magical force to explain it).

Originally posted by Snook
The world was flat in the minds of those people. Depends if you are limited to the very defined idea of what is real. If in the minds of a whole country the Earth is flat, then this is the reality of those people.

I believe that the presence of a higher being has been proven in many different ways, usually though science, but if you don't want to believe you never will, no matter what the evidence.

Originally posted by Snook

I believe that the presence of a higher being has been proven in many different ways, usually though science

No it hasn't. It may have been proven philosophically but never scientifically. If there is a higher being where did it come from? Using the argument how did we come here otherwise then there must be a higher higher being else where did the higher being come from?

This is a pointless argument now as we, as human beings, are unable to grasp infinity. If God made man, who made God?

It's like looking at the sky at night. We have to put a limit to it, but there isn't one.

That's my contribution over. :confused: :confused: :confused:

Originally posted by max
No it hasn't. It may have been proven philosophically but never scientifically. If there is a higher being where did it come from? Using the argument how did we come here otherwise then there must be a higher higher being else where did the higher being come from?

I didn't mean it in the sense of a 'God' as a being, but the fact that some things in science are so perfect, that some things just don't appear random. Like I said, if you don't want to believe in a power, or a plan, or a god, then you probably will not see things in science as being more than... well, just science.

Originally posted by Cyclone
ermm, no, they were just wrong. You've somehow elevated a group of people being wrong to having the power to change reality. I'm fairly sure that a group of people can be just as wrong as a single person. Reality just is, we are trying to understand it all the time and a lot of the time we get things wrong. We'd be pretty arrogant to believe that reality changes to match our wrongheaded perceptions.

Show me this scientific proof and i'll convert immediately. I don't want or not want to believe, I make my judgement based on the balance of evidence and am prepared to change my judgement if new evidence is presented (valid evidence, not rather hollow logical arguments like 'how else did we get here', the lack of understanding of something doesn't mean we should just invent some magical force to explain it).

Maybe i just don't see things as black and white.

A recent study has shown that prayer helped heart patients recover. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1627662.stm
I'm not saying this is proof of the existance of god, but that people can change their reality with belief. If that isn't true, how would prayer help? So if i live my whole life believing something, it become my reality... maybe i'm being too deep here, but does nobody see what i'm saying? I've always thought reality was an unstable thing anyway, maybe it's just me. :D

As for scientific proof, as i said, 'I believe'. I didn't say you had too. I was making the point that, from what i have seen, somethings seem too perfect to be an accident in this universe. That gives me certain beliefs.

I don't believe in 'God', and i don't but my trust in holy texts. I just choose to believe what i do, and don't ask anyone to join me. Just believe what makes up your reality and you'll be happy.

prayer helping heart patients can easily be explained, the same way that a placebo can make someone feel better. It's all in there head. Not the heart problem of course, but if praying makes them less stressed then that's what has the effect.

its not that reality changes because of the belief though, it's just that different chemicals are released in their brains which has an effect on their overall phsyiology.

I don't think reality is something that's fluid, not until you get down into quantum mechanics and then it's just weird, not fluid.

I can't remember the term, but thinking that what we believe affects reality is overstating our importance in the universe. So what if we believe that stars are pinpricks in the sky, it's not true, it's just that we're stupid.

How do animals fit into your theories, i expect my parents dog has certain believes about things, and i expect that they're rather more simple than my beliefs and my beliefs still may not actually reflect reality. But if the dog really believes, and i really believe.... what, something can't fit too different (opposed) views.

i expect that this argument is futile, as were all the previous ones, you can't argue with faith as there is no logic too it by definition.

Originally posted by Cyclone
prayer helping heart patients can easily be explained, the same way that a placebo can make someone feel better. It's all in there head. Not the heart problem of course, but if praying makes them less stressed then that's what has the effect.

its not that reality changes because of the belief though, it's just that different chemicals are released in their brains which has an effect on their overall phsyiology.



There were some studies down a few years ago which seemed to show that through 'blind' trials people who were thought about or who were the subject of meditation, even if they didn't know they were being thought about, so to say, seemed to benefit.

I'll try and find the references - it was a rather odd set of results but the method and technique used seemed to be sound.

Joe

Originally posted by Cyclone
prayer helping heart patients can easily be explained, the same way that a placebo can make someone feel better. It's all in there head. Not the heart problem of course, but if praying makes them less stressed then that's what has the effect.

Yeah, the placebo effect is sort of what i'm talking about. The reality of the situation is that you are taking something that is doing you no good at all, but in your own reality, it does.

There is room for as many realities as we like, and I think yours is different than mine, and that's fine. There is no point in arguing about it, because neither of us can be proven right or wrong, but i wasn't trying to argue, i respect what you believe, i was just putting my point across and not saying you were wrong.

but that's just an example of you not understanding how the placebo affect works and inventing some mumbo jumbo to explain it.
I could explain it, but i don't it'll make any difference.

Nope... I dont believe in god!

And we evolved...
We were not moulded by some universal life creator up in the clouds!

If there is a God, he has a sadistic sense of humour!

Originally posted by Cyclone
but that's just an example of you not understanding how the placebo affect works and inventing some mumbo jumbo to explain it.
I could explain it, but i don't it'll make any difference.

Honestly, i understand perfectly. The medical facts do not change my opinion. I don't see why anyone should change there opinion on this subject.

i guess that's faith for you then.

Originally posted by Snook
Honestly, i understand perfectly. The medical facts do not change my opinion. I don't see why anyone should change there opinion on this subject.

Originally posted by royjames
I think that religeon has been responsible for more death and suffering than anything else in history.
We dont need all this religeon,all we need is to lead good lives.

I agree, religion has been responsible for much death and suffering over the centuries. However, religion is not of god, it is of dogma.

Not that I have ever really attempted to read the Bible, but I believe that the message Jesus was basically trying to put across is that God is LOVE (no more, no less).

This message has largely been obscured by the Established Church's preoccupation with bigotry and petty power struggles.

Categorically no. I decided this when I was a mere 11 years of age and when heavily and indignantly questioned about my decision I went and read the Bible, which took a long time. And I still don't believe.
I however have an appreciation of beliefs which have scientific possibility and a supporting set of thoughts which are given ground by the world we live in and cycles of life.

I'm not sure that reading the Bible is really a way of finding an answer to this question (besides making you very bored in the process).

Well, it gave me a stronger basis to support my argument of why I don't believe. And it made all the people who had the face on with me back off.
Furthermore, when the Jehovahs witnesses got me ( I was sooooo naive once) I actually had something I could talk about.
I do however, support the ideals of the 10 commandments as a sensible set of social guidance rules. Works for me in general.

I think the Bible is just a set of ideas, some of them very good... some questionable. It's when people start having beliefs instead of ideas that it gets a bit tricky. I don't understand antheists, just as i don't understand extreme religous factions.... both take a lot of belief, and people will kill and die for beliefs... i am not sure where these people get their unwavering commitment from.

Originally posted by Snook
I think the Bible is just a set of ideas, some of them very good... some questionable. It's when people start having beliefs instead of ideas that it gets a bit tricky. I don't understand antheists, just as i don't understand extreme religous factions.... both take a lot of belief, and people will kill and die for beliefs... i am not sure where these people get their unwavering commitment from.

Are you sure you've thought this through? I've never heard of an atheist suicide bomber, or a gang of heavily armed atheists beheading an innocent aid worker. Perhaps I should watch Fox News more often :)