Originally posted by Sidla
How do you know Father Christmas doesn't exsist?

That's my point......

Originally posted by Banksia
There is no dividing line between God and self... it's one and the same... we create every day... misery or joy.. it's entirely up to us.

Yep I know ...

We are 'god' ... we are 'IT' ... more precious than we can ever know.

The thing you say about creating our own reality I agree 100% with Banskia.

<poet_philosoper_mode>

It's like rain falling on a pond, making ripples on the surface. The events of your life are like those ripples. The surface of the water changes shape, but the volume of water (contained in pond and rain drops) remains the same.

</poet_philosoper_mode>

OK ... so I'm not that good a poet !!

:p

Originally posted by Jamie
No way !!

Jimi Hendrix blows him away ...

One thing that amuses me is ... why does everyone refer to 'god' as 'he' ... do they expect some old guy with a white beard !?

Media / Films are to blame for that one I assume.

Originally posted by Pauly


Another thing that really gets me is when I read snippets of text in religious leaflets that get posted through the door that say 'God wants you to do this' and God wants you to do that'. Excuse me? :rolleyes: If that's not an attempt at controlling people I don't know what is.

Thou shalt not??? In the words of Billy Connolly "We f***ing SHALL pal!" :D

The bottom line is that you don't need religion in order to be a good, pleasant person and be friendly and decent with others. I manage that quite well without it and it annoys me when people tell me I need some god in my life to make me complete.

/rant :D

Agreed - If god is so great he/her/it can do it it's self!! ;)

It's all a bit vague and wishy washy, isn't it? The believers say "we believe in god, but we don't know why, or what he is, or what he looks like".

They can't satisfactorily explain the existence of a god. Their arguments have more holes than a string vest, yet they get defensive and a little aggressive when put on the spot.

They're a bit like your dad used to be when you asked why you had to do what he wanted: "because I say so"

Originally posted by mojoworking
It's all a bit vague and wishy washy, isn't it? The believers say "we believe in god, but we don't know why, or what he is, or what he looks like".

They can't satisfactorily explain the existence of a god. Their arguments have more holes than a string vest, yet they get defensive and a little aggressive when put on the spot.

They're a bit like your dad used to be when you asked why you had to do what he wanted: "because I say so"

I think there are elements of the defensive and aggressive on both sides of the debate here, mojoworking. You seem quite keen to poke fun and generally belittle others beliefs.

As I've said, it is a matter of faith and on such things believers and non-believers will probably never agree.

If it's so important that you be seen as right, I'll take the Galiileo approach and say 'OK, whatever you say.'. Happy? :)

Joe

Originally posted by JoePritchard
I think there are elements of the defensive and aggressive on both sides of the debate here, mojoworking. You seem quite keen to poke fun and generally belittle others beliefs.

As I've said, it is a matter of faith and on such things believers and non-believers will probably never agree.

If it's so important that you be seen as right, I'll take the Galiileo approach and say 'OK, whatever you say.'. Happy? :)

Joe

That's where we differ Joe. It matters little to me whether I'm seen as right or not. I don't have an axe to grind because I'm not trying to defend an increasingly shaky premise.

I was simply looking for reasons why people believe in god. It seems there are no logical reasons after all.

I’m not familiar with the Galileo quote you use, but he did also say this: “All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them”.

Is God a Name ? a Title ? or a Job description ??.

it's not rubbish. you can measure someones brain waves when they see something that they consider to be beautiful. From that you can tell when other people are experiencing the same feeling. Emotion is just electro-chemical activity in our brains.

Beauty itself is an abstract concept. But it's possible to determine what factors affect how beautiful something is. If it's a face then there are ways to measure it. If it's a landscape then we know what different factors affect it.
There are going to be personal factors involved, but if we had the technology to measure every aspect of someones brain then we could model it and say exactly what they would think was beautiful.
And that's the hardest of the things you said, beauty is an opinion, the others are just emotional responses, visible on a cat scan in real time.

Edited to add a bit.
The reason i equate believe in god to none thinking is that that is what faith is. It's the demonstration of non rational thought, a delusion. You don't believe in father christmas right? You did before you were smart enough to question it, no-one has provided you any evidence for the non existance of father christmas i presume (since such proof is impossible)... So what happened to your faith in father christmas? If that dissolved as your mind became more aware and more rational why the continuing belief in a different although broadly similar mythical figure?

Originally posted by evildrneil
Thats rubbish - how do you quantise and measure for example beauty? Everyones experience of beauty varies and in most cases can't even be pinned down by the person experiencing it! The same applies to pretty much everything in the emotional realm - they are just not amenable to scientific investigation and I for one am glad of that!



I'm not sure why you must constantly equate belief in some form of god to be equivilent to not thinking - I've posted on here a brief summery of what I believe - no one told me to believe that its an oppinion I have come to after much thought. I have no existential angst - I've not professed faith in an afterlife or even in a deity that constantly watches over everyone have I?

Oh and BTW the delusion that science can explain everything is as bad as any other and worse than many ;)

Originally posted by Sidla
How do you know Father Christmas doesn't exsist?
Off course he does, how else is it we get a nice diner on Xhristmas day and presies under the tree ?

Cyclone and mojo, do you accept that there is a possibility that the universe was created by a God or some kind of higher intelligence?

Originally posted by Cyclone
it's not rubbish. you can measure someones brain waves when they see something that they consider to be beautiful. From that you can tell when other people are experiencing the same feeling. Emotion is just electro-chemical activity in our brains.

Yes you can measure someones brain waves - however all you have there is something that you can correlate with someones statements as to beuaty - it does not tell you anything about the concept of beauty does it? And brains have this usefull little facility called plasticity which means that the the localisation of functions in one persons brain do not neccesarilly carry across to any other persons...

Beauty itself is an abstract concept. But it's possible to determine what factors affect how beautiful something is. If it's a face then there are ways to measure it. If it's a landscape then we know what different factors affect it.
There are going to be personal factors involved, but if we had the technology to measure every aspect of someones brain then we could model it and say exactly what they would think was beautiful.
And that's the hardest of the things you said, beauty is an opinion, the others are just emotional responses, visible on a cat scan in real time.


That implies a standardisation of beauty - which is just not the case what person A finds beautiful is not neccesarilly what person B finds beautiful so I'm afraid your argument falls down a little there. As to meausing and modelling the brain to determine theres a couple of points there a) you would first need to determine a persons concepts of beauty and THEN model the brain based on your knowledge and b) nothing like that has been done - looks like your blind faith in science as the arbiter of all things is taking over ;)

Originally posted by Sidla
Cyclone and mojo, do you accept that there is a possibility that the universe was created by a God or some kind of higher intelligence?

yes, if you accept that it is equally likely that a fat jolly man delivers all the christmas presents in the world every year, and that my statement about being the lord of the universe is possibly correct.

I was thinking about a specific study, reported on in new scientist.
Beauty is a concept anyway, do you believe that god is just a concept? With our as yet imperfect scientific understanding of the mind and the brain it stands to reason that there will be functions of that system that we can't fully explain.
It doesn't mean that we won't ever explain them, nor does it mean that we should put them down to some strange mystical force. We just accept that we don't know the answers yet.

Originally posted by evildrneil
Yes you can measure someones brain waves - however all you have there is something that you can correlate with someones statements as to beuaty - it does not tell you anything about the concept of beauty does it? And brains have this usefull little facility called plasticity which means that the the localisation of functions in one persons brain do not neccesarilly carry across to any other persons...



That implies a standardisation of beauty - which is just not the case what person A finds beautiful is not neccesarilly what person B finds beautiful so I'm afraid your argument falls down a little there. As to meausing and modelling the brain to determine theres a couple of points there a) you would first need to determine a persons concepts of beauty and THEN model the brain based on your knowledge and b) nothing like that has been done - looks like your blind faith in science as the arbiter of all things is taking over ;)

Originally posted by Jamie
Yep I know ...

We are 'god' ... we are 'IT' ... more precious than we can ever know.

The thing you say about creating our own reality I agree 100% with Banskia.

<poet_philosoper_mode>

It's like rain falling on a pond, making ripples on the surface. The events of your life are like those ripples. The surface of the water changes shape, but the volume of water (contained in pond and rain drops) remains the same.

</poet_philosoper_mode>

OK ... so I'm not that good a poet !!
Thanks Jamie ! at last someone who understands fully what I'm talking about. Have you read "Conversations with God", I would be interested to know.

:p

Originally posted by mojoworking
It's all a bit vague and wishy washy, isn't it? The believers say "we believe in god, but we don't know why, or what he is, or what he looks like".

They can't satisfactorily explain the existence of a god. Their arguments have more holes than a string vest, yet they get defensive and a little aggressive when put on the spot.

They're a bit like your dad used to be when you asked why you had to do what he wanted: "because I say so"

Deary me ! are you spitting the dummy Mojo ?
It seems you are the one who is aggressive toward people who don't agree with your views. Whether you believe in god is of no consequence, he/it /she believes in you.
I know thats the last thing you want to hear, sorry !
I'll sit back and wait for the tirade now.

Nope I haven't read conversations with god ... is it good?

Who is the author? ... god? (joke!!).

I tend to go more on what I feel for myself inside myself kinda thing ... than anything I read in books (although I do read books).

In my experience ... 'god' is not something that the intellect part of us human beings can grasp.

Asking what is 'god' is like asking what the colour blue sounds like ...

As a human being I experience myself is so many different ways ... including logic and reason as well as spiritual stuff ... and it is all valid and wonderful.

But for sure ... the logic and reasoning part of me (although I love is so much being a games programmer) is such a small part of who and what I am ...

I can't even begin to say how magical it all is. Just to look up and see the stars. How utterly profound that there is actually something out there. Be it "out there" or "in here" ... who knows !?

To the closed minded all I can say is don't believe any of that religious mumbo jumbo. Just experience for yourself the fullness of you're very own being (in your own sweet time of course).

You are a flower about to open ... hehe.

Originally posted by Banksia
Deary me ! are you spitting the dummy Mojo ?
It seems you are the one who is aggressive toward people who don't agree with your views. Whether you believe in god is of no consequence, he/it /she believes in you.
I know thats the last thing you want to hear, sorry !
I'll sit back and wait for the tirade now.

No, not spitting the dummy and I certainly wasn't getting aggressive. I don't know where you got that from. Perhaps you'd like to point out exactly where that happened?

Just trying to get a sensible answer from those who run their lives on blind faith, myths and fairy tales.

Dear mojo ... angel ... you are a beautiful flower about to open up and fully experience who you are ... what colour would you like to be ... you choose !?

Originally posted by Jamie
Dear mojo ... angel ... you are a beautiful flower about to open up and fully experience who you are ... what colour would you like to be ... you choose !?

Oo-er missus!

You are awful...but I like you!!!

Originally posted by mojoworking
You are awful...but I like you!!!

That's becasue I am 'god' ... but it's ok ... so are you !!!

How can you not believe in your self !? *tut* ... ;)

Originally posted by Jamie
That's becasue I am 'god' ... but it's ok ... so are you !!!

How can you not believe in your self !? *tut* ... ;)

What are you on about?

Originally posted by mojoworking
What are you on about?

Well mojo ...

I am saying that we (people) are all a part of 'all that is' (i.e. god) ... so we are all god ... and 'god' is not seperate to who we are.

Of course ... 'god' is a redundant word ... and has no more signifigance (at least to me) than any other word.

In my way of looking at it ... people are god ... and there is no seperate 'god' being (inorganic / discoporate beings are another matter) 'out there' or 'in here' that is not actually you (i.e. your higher self) ...

As you seem to be saying that you do not believe in 'god' ... well ... going by my defenition ... that equates to saying you don't believe in yourself.

But not believing in yourself is just as valid as believing in yourself.

Just ignore me ... it's easier.

the only problem with that explanation jamie is that it doesn't match up with anyone elses idea of "god", so it makes it impossible for us to discuss it.
God is not a word that represents everything in the universe including us. It represents a diety, a single, omniscient, self-aware and entirely seperate entity with mystical powers.

If you want to talk about people being part of the universe, then fine, but don't confuse it by misusing a common word.

yes i do believe in god, father , son ,and holy spirit, ive been born again for the last twenty years or so,,,,,,,,,and when youve seen the healing power of god working on a loved one as i have then you realise how much he loves you..........................

Originally posted by cheeky boy
yes i do believe in god, father , son ,and holy spirit,

Three (or is it four) for the price of one! How does that break down? I mean, how do you know which is which?


Originally posted by cheeky boy
ive been born again for the last twenty years or so,,,,,,,,,and when youve seen the healing power of god working on a loved one as i have then you realise how much he loves you..........................

I know I shouldn't ask, but please elaborate.

Originally posted by cheeky boy
when youve seen the healing power of god working on a loved one as i have then you realise how much he loves you..........................

I had a friend that truely believed in the powers of 'God'

But what i couldnt understand was the fact that she whole heartedly believed in 'God' almost lived by the bible as if it were her manual of living (so to speak... lol)

Now heres the odd bit... She would drink herself stupid whilst taking tablets to do away with herself... she had also been known to use razor blades on her wrists...

She called me on several ocassions after she had been drinking an taken tablets... The first time she called me... she was in such a state i had to call the police... Her boyfriend was apparently with her at all times but seemed to do nothing about it... Hence why i got hold of the police... It was hard work as she lived miles away from me... I didnt know what to do for the best... She has since been in & out of hospital 5 times... We are no longer in contact with one another... Her choice sadly... We had a falling out over 'God' hmmm... Tis a shame as i had known her since my infant years...

I often thought tho... Surely if she believed that much an was living for 'God' as one of his children... Why would she try to do this to herself... Surely she would be going against 'God' in the fact of taking her own life... whereas i thought their believe was that their life was always within the hands of 'God'

I am not a believer myself... but whoever chooses to be that is their choice... I dont hold it against anyone...

Just dont preach... :)

father (God) son(Jesus) Holy spirit.. sent after jesus died and rose into heaven..............one person 3 entities.like an egg the shell. the yoke. the white..........................

youve got a nice user name my friend,,,,,,,,,yes its very difficult when u see friends like yours going through life believing in god and showing all the signs of being a christian, and then trying to kill themselves, a christian life is not an easy life, and thats where faith comes in, we all fail in one thing or another daily.
but knowing that god will forgive us if we ask,then that should be the way forward, your friend is on a ladder a step up and two down, ive been there got the t shirt.
not tried to kill myself but really mess up regulary, just have to get up and ask forgiveness and belive

Originally posted by Cyclone
the only problem with that explanation jamie is that it doesn't match up with anyone elses idea of "god", so it makes it impossible for us to discuss it.

Well Cyclone ... I am sure it doesn't mis-match with other people's ideas re: god and I don't think it's impossible to discuss anything I've said there.

Also ... I did say earlier in this thread that perhaps we should agree on what we mean by 'god' before debating further.

Originally posted by Cyclone
God is not a word that represents everything in the universe including us. It represents a diety, a single, omniscient, self-aware and entirely seperate entity with mystical powers.

As for a single omniscient self-aware being. Yes, that's what god is, 'everything' (and nothing).

your right, you have to agree what a term means before any meaningful discussion can take place.

I don't understand what you think it means. Is it a single entity? If it is, how are we all part of it? If we are, then by definition it's not single is it?

Originally posted by Cyclone
your right, you have to agree what a term means before any meaningful discussion can take place.

I don't understand what you think it means. Is it a single entity? If it is, how are we all part of it? If we are, then by definition it's not single is it?

Difficult (impossible) to understand (by understand I mean intellectually 'grasp') what it is ... and even more difficult to communicate to another person in words.

The word 'entity' is misleading because it implies a created being (which would be something ... and exist in some context / nothing).

Can you imagine 'everything' and 'nothing' at the same time (throughout all time) to be one in the same thing ... existing and non-existing ?

b-------t thATSWHAT IT IS

Sorry Brooksy come again with that!

this whole subject is a total waste of time,firstly as anyone actually studied the history of the planet we call earth. 65000000 years ago wasnt it running wild with dinosaurs, when did god actually make is entrance "whoops"2004 years ago. get real folks it may bring comfort 2 people but does anyone realy believe in this crap.

Originally posted by brooksy
when did god actually make is entrance "whoops"2004 years ago. get real folks it may bring comfort 2 people but does anyone realy believe in this crap.
Nobody's claiming the world wasn't around before Jesus, not even the bible.

interesting thing, holy books like the bible and the koran.

Are they the revealed word of god? If not, then surely they must be fallible, if they are they must be infallible.

If they are fallible, what possible use are they as holy books, how does one distinguish between the dross and the pearls?

No.

http://www.bozzetto.com/Flash/Life.htm

Originally posted by Bookey
Media / Films are to blame for that one I assume.

I think you'll find that the Jews are to blame. They created Jehovah (the same God the Christians later adopted) and Jehovah was male. Sorry, if this offends anyone, but I didn't write the Jewish Book of Law.

I remember seeing a poster somewhere that said "God is Love",
If that is the case then I have touched the face of God for I have truly loved and been loved in my life.
Love is an all consuming fire, it devours every negative emotion and removes doubt, It propels the soul, mind and the body to a greater place.
To go beyond this is to reach a special place, a place by invitation only.
Those that visit never forget and those that visit begin to understand!

Originally posted by Jamie
Nope I haven't read conversations with god ... is it good?

Who is the author? ... god? (joke!!).

I tend to go more on what I feel for myself inside myself kinda thing ... than anything I read in books (although I do read books).

In my experience ... 'god' is not something that the intellect part of us human beings can grasp.

Asking what is 'god' is like asking what the colour blue sounds like ...

As a human being I experience myself is so many different ways ... including logic and reason as well as spiritual stuff ... and it is all valid and wonderful.

But for sure ... the logic and reasoning part of me (although I love is so much being a games programmer) is such a small part of who and what I am ...

I can't even begin to say how magical it all is. Just to look up and see the stars. How utterly profound that there is actually something out there. Be it "out there" or "in here" ... who knows !?

To the closed minded all I can say is don't believe any of that religious mumbo jumbo. Just experience for yourself the fullness of you're very own being (in your own sweet time of course).

You are a flower about to open ... hehe.

The author is a guy called Neale Donald Walsch and yes the writings were inspired by god, whoever and whatever that is. Inspiration from deep within himself.. yes very possible. We are much more than our logical reasoning minds as you already understand. I agree with everything you say, god is knowing, god is experiencing, god is being. God is the up and the down, the hot and the cold, the seen and the unseen, the "out there" and "in here" as you put it. Simple really eh ?

Originally posted by cheeky boy
youve got a nice user name my friend,,,,,,,,,yes its very difficult when u see friends like yours going through life believing in god and showing all the signs of being a christian, and then trying to kill themselves, a christian life is not an easy life, and thats where faith comes in, we all fail in one thing or another daily.
but knowing that god will forgive us if we ask,then that should be the way forward, your friend is on a ladder a step up and two down, ive been there got the t shirt.
not tried to kill myself but really mess up regulary, just have to get up and ask forgiveness and belive

Thank you for the compliment on my name but i guess its one of gods little helpers!

That is too what she told me... she would be forgiven... I really dont understand why someone should do such a thing only to ask for forgiveness...

I think she did most of this for attention and still do think that... Yeah could be a nasty thing of me to say... But just to ask god forgiveness to do over & over again... Surely a family is more important than 'god'...

I am only on this thread to try and understand my former friend... as i am not a real believer in this kinda thing...

What happens in our lives happens for a reason... I have always liked to believe that should something go wrong its happened that way cause it was ment to... or should something go right...

Were all here for a purpose...

Live life to the Max! - Life is far too short!

yes i would agree with you i think, about attention, and as for forgiveness its the only way forward for christians,,,to ask forgiveness and (then), turn away from the suiside attempts.
i know its not easy to understand christianty and god, but its not until you come to know (god, jesus)as your saviour that it becomes clearer..................anyhow im not preeching to you, and thanks 4 replying...............................ron

To Pauly, I ain't trying to preach to you or anyone, just quoting the facts. Think about it, it all adds up, but then again you have your opinions and I would have to respect them just as you would have to respect others.
Sorry for the delay in replying to you, but hey.

Originally posted by cheeky boy
yes i would agree with you i think, about attention, and as for forgiveness its the only way forward for christians,,,to ask forgiveness and (then), turn away from the suiside attempts.
i know its not easy to understand christianty and god, but its not until you come to know (god, jesus)as your saviour that it becomes clearer..................anyhow im not preeching to you, and thanks 4 replying...............................ron

Your welcome to the reply... Its ok i didnt see it as a preach... more like someone helping another out.... I just wanted to try an understand where my mate was coming from... In the fact that to have such a believe... you would also believe in yourself as one of gods children...

Thanx for your replies... it is a tough one i guess...

Cheers S x

Originally posted by Banksia
Simple really eh ?

It's the simple things that had the hardest to understand Banksia !! ... hehe.

just wondering which specific bits in here were supposed to be the facts???

Originally posted by bassplayer
Yes I do beieve that there is a God and regardless of what is going on in the world He cares. Remember that it is quoted that the devil, satan is the prince of the power of the air so please realise that all things are not totally controlled by God. If man takes it upon himself to do certain things he will do them regardless sometimes of the cost, pain, suffering, longlasting effect to other people.
The church that I go to is an Apostlic Church where you actually see God in action through healing, prayer and the workings of the Spirit. (Holy Ghost, Holy Spirit)
To deny something that I have seen would make me a hypercrite but when you see things happening that you know is impossible; but to believe through faith is absolutely incredible, even more so to feel God for yourself.
Ok so bad things happen in the world everyday and people die through natural disasters and wars but don't you think that God will have mercy upon whom He will have Mercy?. Children die awful deaths but that does not mean that their souls are lost. There is a God in this world and the saying goes that He is alive and well. Regardless of all other religions man needs to worship, adore, believe or hold something dear to his/her heart;and yes it may even be football. Someone previously mentioned the Dave Allen quote, may your God go with you which I always thought that it was strange coming ffrom a catholic, but hey not everyon e believes in the same thing. So what am I serving God for?. Me, I just wanna get to heaven and fly.
Last thing, on the film Men In Black, check out the ending when our world is pictured as a tiny dot in our solar system in our galaxy, in our universe in space in the middle of marble to be rolled in the next play of a game, How the mind works!!!!!

bassplayer

Originally posted by Sidla
The problem I have really, is the people who are saying catagorically that they do not believe in God are dismissing all posibility that one may exsist. You seem to think it's a stupid idea.

The fact that the entire universe emerged from a big bang billions of years ago is a pretty daft idea too, but I bet you're not so quick to dismiss it.

That's what I used to think, until I read this verse in the Koran:

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of Creation) before We split them apart? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

Koran 21: 30

So Koranic mention of the Big Bang theory, over 1400 years ago. Now how was anybody supposed to know this at the time, except by divine guidance?

The second sentence is also noteworthy, in that the bodies of humans and animals are made up of a large mass of water.

However, what I find most interesting about the above verse is who God is addressing. Is He addressing the Muslims? No. Is He addressing all of Mankind? No.

He is challenging the Unbelievers. Those who see His signs and refuse to believe Him.

Mojo, t020, and the rest - the ball's in your court :)

Originally posted by Jamie
It's the simple things that had the hardest to understand Banksia !! ... hehe.
Yes, it's the simplicity that folk look past because they EXPECT IT to be complex. :loopy:

i'm sure that just like nostradamus' prophecies you can pretty much read anything you like into something that vague.

You have to wonder, why did all this godly communication go on way back in days of yor, but these days the godly airwaves are strangely silent.
Just speak unto me as a voice in my head and i'll either take myself to the psychiatric ward, or give up my godless scientific ways. Not too much to ask for all powerful being???

Originally posted by Abdul
That's what I used to think, until I read this verse in the Koran:

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of Creation) before We split them apart? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

Koran 21: 30

So Koranic mention of the Big Bang theory, over 1400 years ago. Now how was anybody supposed to know this at the time, except by divine guidance?

The second sentence is also noteworthy, in that the bodies of humans and animals are made up of a large mass of water.

However, what I find most interesting about the above verse is who God is addressing. Is He addressing the Muslims? No. Is He addressing all of Mankind? No.

He is challenging the Unbelievers. Those who see His signs and refuse to believe Him.

Mojo, t020, and the rest - the ball's in your court :)

Originally posted by Abdul
That's what I used to think, until I read this verse in the Koran:

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of Creation) before We split them apart? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

Koran 21: 30

So Koranic mention of the Big Bang theory, over 1400 years ago. Now how was anybody supposed to know this at the time, except by divine guidance?

You're deluded if you think the Koran is mentioning Big Bang theory :). Thats the sort of theory of creation everyone comes up with when they ask themselves "how did we get here"? If you work from first principles

And it was written by a human being, not god. The last thing God wrote (IIRC) was 'Mene Mene Tekel Upharsin' - And that wasn't especially illuminating - not sure if that is the same God as the Koran, some people seem to think so, in which case he already has an identity problem (or there is more than one God)

If the Big Bang theory turns out to be wrong (already yesterday, cosmologists are looking at having to redefine the age of the universe - more disturbing yet amazing info from hubble on the farthest sensable galaxies) how will the Koran cope?

The bible creation story is also remarkably similar - Light from Dark (which is actually much more in tune with Big Bang theory - i.e the murky universe built up a critical strength of starlight and atoms between stars were split and the whole universe literally cleared, allowing the light to shine far and wide)

Presumably it will simply be reinterpreted to reveal it was actually describing the next theory of the origins of the universe.

Lucretius mentions 'atomic theory' in quite some detail in 55 BCE. He didn't claim divine intervention, he just had a head on him and worked from 'flawed' first principles - the conclusions he reached are ultimately wrong, but it just shows you how right you can be without actually having a clue.

As far as I can see, all that God offers people is a certain sense of calm and a haven in a violent world, and cold unfeeling universe. He doesn't confer any direct advantages that are tangible to non-believers that could ever be demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt.

This was not always the case. Back in the good old days, tribes in the desert etc. God was striding about and telling folk what to do (and it was some pretty weird stuff he was saying too).

If God was still doing that today, I think you would find that most people would believe in God, in the same way as they believe in Dogs or Paris or The moon. i.e - obviously there.

Again - Lucretius on the existence of God, 5 centuries before the Koran - and marginally pre- new testament. Pity so much of his stuff was lost with the successive sacking of Alexandria. One can only wonder where we could be now if that library had survived.

This terror, then, this darkness of the mind,
Not sunrise with its flaring spokes of light,
Nor glittering arrows of morning can disperse,
But only Nature's aspect and her law,
Which, teaching us, hath this exordium:
Nothing from nothing ever yet was born.
Fear holds dominion over mortality
Only because, seeing in land and sky
So much the cause whereof no wise they know,
Men think Divinities are working there.
Meantime, when once we know from nothing still
Nothing can be create, we shall divine
More clearly what we seek: those elements
From which alone all things created are,
And how accomplished by no tool of Gods.
Suppose all sprang from all things: any kind
Might take its origin from any thing,
No fixed seed required.


And God is about the least simple explanation for anything bar the uttery paranormal which defies explanation by definition.

Originally posted by JoePritchard
Hehehehe.....that's a whole new ball game....

Evil exists; I know it when I see it, but I appreciate that that's rather subjective. Pure evil is hard to define; how would you define it?

I believe that there are people with pure evil intent. What I'm not sure about is if they commit an evil act from which good comes, is that act still evil?

Joe

Pure evil would mean that you were born evil. So I suppose you would have to believe that a new born baby could be evil.

I personally don't agree that anyone is pure evil, it is outside factors that create evil actions. NAture gives us a quality of paper, nuture puts the writing on the page.

I personally don't belive in "god" in the general sense. I do believe , however, that there are higher forces that we are not fully aware of. I believe we have an etheric body and in turn, a soul, we are connected to everything around and beyond us.
After all energy cannot just dissapear, it changes form.

So my "god" would be the cosmos.

As for religion. I believe Christ did exist and was a man who made a large impact. I don't beleive this would happen again due to the mass media and many forms of communication. He was talked about like chinese whispers from community to community. So it was easy to embelish.
Same goes for all religions as far as I am concerned, the person/man/woman they centre around most probably existed but the writings are metaphors and stories that have been embelished over time.

God is a part of everything, so you can call it what you like, we can only speak of god in terms of what we know, and that isn't much.
We may never even find out as we are only one small part in time and evolution. There may not be "a point" to our existence but we still have a responsibility to the part we play.

Originally posted by Warreng
well do you, or dont you?


It doesn't matter.

Your own belief is the most important.

I'm me, I'm now and that's all.

Yes i do , and have experienced God too in a powerful way a few times.

Coggy

I met an atheist the other day. He was also dyslexic and an insomniac. He told me hed lie awake at night wondering if there was a dog..........cloakroom here we come!


On Gard

Originally posted by Abdul
He is challenging the Unbelievers. Those who see His signs and refuse to believe Him.


But conviction can be a dangerous thing. GW Bush is a convinced Christian fundamentalist and the Taliban are convinced Muslim fundamentalists.

If God made us as we are then God planted in those of us who doubt God's existence the need of proof....Signs ? - what signs ?

On the subject of Creation I found an interesting Islamic view here...

http://www.submission.org/islam/introduction.html

I think we all belive in God in our own way, I know I do, although i don't go to church, i don't like to listen to Preachers that tell me they can speak to God for me, like they have " An IN" with him and I don't, I can do my own talking to him on my own time, don't need the middle man.

I think that religeon has been responsible for more death and suffering than anything else in history.
We dont need all this religeon,all we need is to lead good lives.

Originally posted by royjames
I think that religeon has been responsible for more death and suffering than anything else in history.
We dont need all this religeon,all we need is to lead good lives.
Well now you have reached the nub of the matter.

I think plague, malnutrition and disease have been responsible for more deaths than religion, btw.

Without a deity or moral imperative derived from religious doctrine or praxis, how do you decide what constitutes good and evil?

Utilitarianism?
Enlightened Self Interest?
Tit for Tat?
Might is Right?

or do you adopt a position of total moral relativism, and say that good and evil depends on intention and circumstances?

It's a tough one.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Well now you have reached the nub of the matter.

I think plague, malnutrition and disease have been responsible for more deaths than religion, btw.

Without a deity or moral imperative derived from religious doctrine or praxis, how do you decide what constitutes good and evil?

Utilitarianism?
Enlightened Self Interest?
Tit for Tat?
Might is Right?

or do you adopt a position of total moral relativism, and say that good and evil depends on intention and circumstances?

It's a tough one.

At the moment I quite like the concept of atheistic virtue ethics mesen, although I could just as easily argue a case for utilitarianism or some other theory. But it's a toughie. Most moral theories have their merits, and their flaws.

i belive in god everything will be destroyed when the time comes im a christian and i belive.

How can you believe in something that isnt real?

Next your gonna tell me you believe in the Minotaur/3 headed dog/Medusa etc.

They are all the same thing - A MYTH. They are not real and never have been.

I have to confess to being a 'just in case' agnostic, but my overiding feeling is that 'God' (in all His modern forms) is just the lastest iteration of that self same safety net required by the human condition.

we are all part of god
god is in us all
which makes each one of us a god,
we take control of our own destiny.

you can shape you own future into anything if you have faith in yourself- that makes us all god.

Originally posted by Tony
I have to confess to being a 'just in case' agnostic, but my overiding feeling is that 'God' (in all His modern forms) is just the lastest iteration of that self same safety net required by the human condition.

I think that it was the mathematician Blaise Pascal who denied the existence of God all his life and then was bought in to the Church when on his deathbed.

The story goes that he'd looked at it statistically- if God didn't exist, then no harm in joining the Church, just a waste of his little remaining time. If God DID exist and he joined the Church, well, everlasting life. If God DID exist and he didn't join the Church then he was Purgatory or Hell bound.

So....he concluded that his best gamble was to believe and join.

Joe

I believe there is something but i don't like the term 'religion' in my view religion is used far too often as an excuse for terrorism and war

Originally posted by JoePritchard
I think that it was the mathematician Blaise Pascal who denied the existence of God all his life and then was bought in to the Church when on his deathbed.

The story goes that he'd looked at it statistically- if God didn't exist, then no harm in joining the Church, just a waste of his little remaining time. If God DID exist and he joined the Church, well, everlasting life. If God DID exist and he didn't join the Church then he was Purgatory or Hell bound.

So....he concluded that his best gamble was to believe and join.

Joe

To me that actually sounds more like 'pretending to believe' rather than any deep rooted conviction type of belief.

Originally posted by Jamie
To me that actually sounds more like 'pretending to believe' rather than any deep rooted conviction type of belief.

Totally agree, jamie!

Very expedient!

Joe :)

Originally posted by Marianne
I believe there is something but i don't like the term 'religion' in my view religion is used far too often as an excuse for terrorism and war

Same here. I think deep down we all believe in a "supreme being", whether we admit it or not.

I sometimes pray when I have no other option, although I don't know who I'm praying to.. Sometimes you have to.

I also believe everything happens for a reason, so I never look back on anything wishing it to be different, and I have no regrets about anything because I do genuinely believe it was meant to be!.. Whatever "it" is..

thats a bit presumptious of you, I could just as easily say that deep down we all know that no diety exists and that we're all alone, whether we wish it or not.

If god made us in his own image, we certainly returned the favour - A Famous Bloke

Originally posted by JoePritchard
I think that it was the mathematician Blaise Pascal who denied the existence of God all his life and then was bought in to the Church when on his deathbed.

The story goes that he'd looked at it statistically- if God didn't exist, then no harm in joining the Church, just a waste of his little remaining time. If God DID exist and he joined the Church, well, everlasting life. If God DID exist and he didn't join the Church then he was Purgatory or Hell bound.

So....he concluded that his best gamble was to believe and join.

Joe

Harry Hill said this on Room 101. He was putting God in, by the way. ANyway, it's amusing, but stupid, because if you were only believeing in God to get into heaven, then accorcding to doctrine you wouldn't go anyway, because God knows everything.

I'm kinda of the belief that if enough people believe in something, it makes it real. I'd like to think there is a higher power, and i think most people do... i'm really not into organised religion though, i think that is the devils work.

Originally posted by noseyrosie
Harry Hill said this on Room 101. He was putting God in, by the way. ANyway, it's amusing, but stupid, because if you were only believeing in God to get into heaven, then accorcding to doctrine you wouldn't go anyway, because God knows everything.

Dunno about Harry Hill and Room 101 - jut reporting an old and boring anecdote!

My own belief in God is pretty solid and I'm trying not to get in this debate again, so toodle-pip for now!

Joe

so at what point did the the balance tip in favour of the earth being round rather than flat, or does it only work for specific things, ie. ones for which no proof can be offered.

Originally posted by Snook
I'm kinda of the belief that if enough people believe in something, it makes it real. I'd like to think there is a higher power, and i think most people do... i'm really not into organised religion though, i think that is the devils work.

I beleive he has to exist because think bout it, how did we come here otherwise?

Originally posted by Cyclone
so at what point did the the balance tip in favour of the earth being round rather than flat, or does it only work for specific things, ie. ones for which no proof can be offered.

The world was flat in the minds of those people. Depends if you are limited to the very defined idea of what is real. If in the minds of a whole country the Earth is flat, then this is the reality of those people.

I believe that the presence of a higher being has been proven in many different ways, usually though science, but if you don't want to believe you never will, no matter what the evidence.

Originally posted by cleopatra87
I beleive he has to exist because think bout it, how did we come here otherwise?

Evolution

Originally posted by cleopatra87
I beleive he has to exist because think bout it, how did we come here otherwise?

A spaceship?

ermm, no, they were just wrong. You've somehow elevated a group of people being wrong to having the power to change reality. I'm fairly sure that a group of people can be just as wrong as a single person. Reality just is, we are trying to understand it all the time and a lot of the time we get things wrong. We'd be pretty arrogant to believe that reality changes to match our wrongheaded perceptions.

Show me this scientific proof and i'll convert immediately. I don't want or not want to believe, I make my judgement based on the balance of evidence and am prepared to change my judgement if new evidence is presented (valid evidence, not rather hollow logical arguments like 'how else did we get here', the lack of understanding of something doesn't mean we should just invent some magical force to explain it).

Originally posted by Snook
The world was flat in the minds of those people. Depends if you are limited to the very defined idea of what is real. If in the minds of a whole country the Earth is flat, then this is the reality of those people.

I believe that the presence of a higher being has been proven in many different ways, usually though science, but if you don't want to believe you never will, no matter what the evidence.

Originally posted by Snook

I believe that the presence of a higher being has been proven in many different ways, usually though science

No it hasn't. It may have been proven philosophically but never scientifically. If there is a higher being where did it come from? Using the argument how did we come here otherwise then there must be a higher higher being else where did the higher being come from?

This is a pointless argument now as we, as human beings, are unable to grasp infinity. If God made man, who made God?

It's like looking at the sky at night. We have to put a limit to it, but there isn't one.

That's my contribution over. :confused: :confused: :confused:

Originally posted by max
No it hasn't. It may have been proven philosophically but never scientifically. If there is a higher being where did it come from? Using the argument how did we come here otherwise then there must be a higher higher being else where did the higher being come from?

I didn't mean it in the sense of a 'God' as a being, but the fact that some things in science are so perfect, that some things just don't appear random. Like I said, if you don't want to believe in a power, or a plan, or a god, then you probably will not see things in science as being more than... well, just science.

Originally posted by Cyclone
ermm, no, they were just wrong. You've somehow elevated a group of people being wrong to having the power to change reality. I'm fairly sure that a group of people can be just as wrong as a single person. Reality just is, we are trying to understand it all the time and a lot of the time we get things wrong. We'd be pretty arrogant to believe that reality changes to match our wrongheaded perceptions.

Show me this scientific proof and i'll convert immediately. I don't want or not want to believe, I make my judgement based on the balance of evidence and am prepared to change my judgement if new evidence is presented (valid evidence, not rather hollow logical arguments like 'how else did we get here', the lack of understanding of something doesn't mean we should just invent some magical force to explain it).

Maybe i just don't see things as black and white.

A recent study has shown that prayer helped heart patients recover. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1627662.stm
I'm not saying this is proof of the existance of god, but that people can change their reality with belief. If that isn't true, how would prayer help? So if i live my whole life believing something, it become my reality... maybe i'm being too deep here, but does nobody see what i'm saying? I've always thought reality was an unstable thing anyway, maybe it's just me. :D

As for scientific proof, as i said, 'I believe'. I didn't say you had too. I was making the point that, from what i have seen, somethings seem too perfect to be an accident in this universe. That gives me certain beliefs.

I don't believe in 'God', and i don't but my trust in holy texts. I just choose to believe what i do, and don't ask anyone to join me. Just believe what makes up your reality and you'll be happy.

prayer helping heart patients can easily be explained, the same way that a placebo can make someone feel better. It's all in there head. Not the heart problem of course, but if praying makes them less stressed then that's what has the effect.

its not that reality changes because of the belief though, it's just that different chemicals are released in their brains which has an effect on their overall phsyiology.

I don't think reality is something that's fluid, not until you get down into quantum mechanics and then it's just weird, not fluid.

I can't remember the term, but thinking that what we believe affects reality is overstating our importance in the universe. So what if we believe that stars are pinpricks in the sky, it's not true, it's just that we're stupid.

How do animals fit into your theories, i expect my parents dog has certain believes about things, and i expect that they're rather more simple than my beliefs and my beliefs still may not actually reflect reality. But if the dog really believes, and i really believe.... what, something can't fit too different (opposed) views.

i expect that this argument is futile, as were all the previous ones, you can't argue with faith as there is no logic too it by definition.

Originally posted by Cyclone
prayer helping heart patients can easily be explained, the same way that a placebo can make someone feel better. It's all in there head. Not the heart problem of course, but if praying makes them less stressed then that's what has the effect.

its not that reality changes because of the belief though, it's just that different chemicals are released in their brains which has an effect on their overall phsyiology.



There were some studies down a few years ago which seemed to show that through 'blind' trials people who were thought about or who were the subject of meditation, even if they didn't know they were being thought about, so to say, seemed to benefit.

I'll try and find the references - it was a rather odd set of results but the method and technique used seemed to be sound.

Joe

Originally posted by Cyclone
prayer helping heart patients can easily be explained, the same way that a placebo can make someone feel better. It's all in there head. Not the heart problem of course, but if praying makes them less stressed then that's what has the effect.

Yeah, the placebo effect is sort of what i'm talking about. The reality of the situation is that you are taking something that is doing you no good at all, but in your own reality, it does.

There is room for as many realities as we like, and I think yours is different than mine, and that's fine. There is no point in arguing about it, because neither of us can be proven right or wrong, but i wasn't trying to argue, i respect what you believe, i was just putting my point across and not saying you were wrong.

but that's just an example of you not understanding how the placebo affect works and inventing some mumbo jumbo to explain it.
I could explain it, but i don't it'll make any difference.

Nope... I dont believe in god!

And we evolved...
We were not moulded by some universal life creator up in the clouds!

If there is a God, he has a sadistic sense of humour!

Originally posted by Cyclone
but that's just an example of you not understanding how the placebo affect works and inventing some mumbo jumbo to explain it.
I could explain it, but i don't it'll make any difference.

Honestly, i understand perfectly. The medical facts do not change my opinion. I don't see why anyone should change there opinion on this subject.

i guess that's faith for you then.

Originally posted by Snook
Honestly, i understand perfectly. The medical facts do not change my opinion. I don't see why anyone should change there opinion on this subject.

Originally posted by royjames
I think that religeon has been responsible for more death and suffering than anything else in history.
We dont need all this religeon,all we need is to lead good lives.

I agree, religion has been responsible for much death and suffering over the centuries. However, religion is not of god, it is of dogma.

Not that I have ever really attempted to read the Bible, but I believe that the message Jesus was basically trying to put across is that God is LOVE (no more, no less).

This message has largely been obscured by the Established Church's preoccupation with bigotry and petty power struggles.

Categorically no. I decided this when I was a mere 11 years of age and when heavily and indignantly questioned about my decision I went and read the Bible, which took a long time. And I still don't believe.
I however have an appreciation of beliefs which have scientific possibility and a supporting set of thoughts which are given ground by the world we live in and cycles of life.

I'm not sure that reading the Bible is really a way of finding an answer to this question (besides making you very bored in the process).

Well, it gave me a stronger basis to support my argument of why I don't believe. And it made all the people who had the face on with me back off.
Furthermore, when the Jehovahs witnesses got me ( I was sooooo naive once) I actually had something I could talk about.
I do however, support the ideals of the 10 commandments as a sensible set of social guidance rules. Works for me in general.

I think the Bible is just a set of ideas, some of them very good... some questionable. It's when people start having beliefs instead of ideas that it gets a bit tricky. I don't understand antheists, just as i don't understand extreme religous factions.... both take a lot of belief, and people will kill and die for beliefs... i am not sure where these people get their unwavering commitment from.

Originally posted by Snook
I think the Bible is just a set of ideas, some of them very good... some questionable. It's when people start having beliefs instead of ideas that it gets a bit tricky. I don't understand antheists, just as i don't understand extreme religous factions.... both take a lot of belief, and people will kill and die for beliefs... i am not sure where these people get their unwavering commitment from.

Are you sure you've thought this through? I've never heard of an atheist suicide bomber, or a gang of heavily armed atheists beheading an innocent aid worker. Perhaps I should watch Fox News more often :)

Originally posted by mojoworking
Are you sure you've thought this through? I've never heard of an atheist suicide bomber, or a gang of heavily armed atheists beheading an innocent aid worker. Perhaps I should watch Fox News more often :)

Yeah, you need to keep up.

Check out the following link for the 'definitive' answer...

www.meaning-of-life.info/IsThereaGod.html

LOL

mouse

not at all, cant stand anything religious

theres some great statistics about people that go to church...something like more people watch neighbours then go to church... something daft like that anyway:D

the father, the son and the holy spigot he he! four weddings was on the other day! very funny

Originally posted by MTheo
not at all, cant stand anything religious

I'm the same. I get quite freaked out by religious stuff and tend to go a bit funny when I have to go in a church, like for friends' weddings. I feel like I'm stuck in a room full of crazy people when they all start singing and talking about Jesus and praying and stuff. :gag:

Maybe I'm just afraid of what I don't understand...

im sure i remember form school/college that jesus existed and it was proved. not sure of his son of God status though.

Originally posted by MTheo
not at all, cant stand anything religious

theres some great statistics about people that go to church...something like more people watch neighbours then go to church... something daft like that anyway:D

But believing in a higher power or a god doesn't mean that you have to be religious in the slightest. Not many people go to church, but i would hazzard a guess that most people in this country believe in some sort of higher power.

I don't really know what the question actually means.

If by God you mean some guy with a long grey beard who sits on a cloud, or something similar, then I don't think anyone believes in that do they?

I think most people think of God as being something quite intangible and kind of tied up with the laws of nature and suchlike.

God is in my opinion a product of fairly lazy thinking - ie a simple concept used to represent something a whole lot more complicated and subtle.

a personification of a belief perhaps, making it easier for us mere humans to grasp the concept of the all mightly?

remember DOGMA when it was that alanis morisette?
funny aswell how we see God as white and we know jesus was dark skinned

Well its a concept of Christianity (and a lot of other religions) that God created us in his own image.

I guess thats kind of a catch all so God is all things to all men, so in all culture where most "worthies" are white men (I don't subscribe to that view I hasten to add) Jesus is depicted as being a white man.

You can put that down as reasons I think Christianity is meaningless rubbish #35.

Originally posted by Yodameister
Jesus is depicted as being a white man.


mmm i think not baby puppy, where was he born?
otherwise no wonder he got grief if he popped out a white boy and his mum and dad are dark!!;)
id love to have a faith like some do, feel the gospel way is nice:)

Originally posted by NatalieSheff
mmm i think not baby puppy, where was he born?
otherwise no wonder he got grief if he popped out a white boy and his mum and dad are dark!!;)
id love to have a faith like some do, feel the gospel way is nice:)

Ummm where have I said that I thought Jesus was white?

Originally posted by Yodameister

Jesus is depicted as being a white man.


chill out little fish, i type faster than i read! :D
the general english public perhaps see him as being pinky not you! youre just depicting him. thats prob quite painful!:hihi:

Anyway, I don't real feel the Jesus has much to do with any discussion about God.

Jesus just had a lot of things said and written about him that were just a result of being desperate to say that the propecies had been fulfilled - basically just people projecting their own fantasies onto reality.

I'm a Christian and I believe in God.

I have done since I was a little girl. :)

I'm not gullable and I have my own reasons for my belief which I think is the same for everyone.

I used to attend church as a child but I have not been for years! :(

My belief is personal and I don't exactly follow the Christian rules when it comes to what is right and wrong, but I do believe that is has a great attitude that we should learn from, such as being kind and considerate towards others.

Afterall, if everyone were kind and loving we wouldn't have the wars, crime and terrible things happening today, would we?

So what, may I ask, is the harm in that?

Originally posted by sparklesista
I'm a Christian and I believe in God.

I have done since I was a little girl. :)

I'm not gullable and I have my own reasons for my belief which I think is the same for everyone.

I used to attend church as a child but I have not been for years! :(

My belief is personal and I don't exactly follow the Christian rules when it comes to what is right and wrong, but I do believe that is has a great attitude that we should learn from, such as being kind and considerate towards others.

Afterall, if everyone were kind and loving we wouldn't have the wars, crime and terrible things happening today, would we?

So what, may I ask, is the harm in that?

There is no harm in that... well apart from all the wars that have been carried out in the name of religion. The message that is suppost be passed down from god is indeed a good one, but the problem is that it got passed to man... who can mess anything up. In this case it was creating religion.

I think it should be a personal thing to be kind and considerate, and I certainly don't need to go to church to be taught that. I'm not so sure that gay people, or muslims, or disabled people, or people who have re-married find Christianity, and some of its followers, to be so kind and considerate towards others.

The same, of course, goes for many other religions, not just Christianity.

Originally posted by sparklesista
I'm a Christian and I believe in God.

I have done since I was a little girl. :)

I'm not gullable and I have my own reasons for my belief which I think is the same for everyone.

I used to attend church as a child but I have not been for years! :(

My belief is personal and I don't exactly follow the Christian rules when it comes to what is right and wrong, but I do believe that is has a great attitude that we should learn from, such as being kind and considerate towards others.

Afterall, if everyone were kind and loving we wouldn't have the wars, crime and terrible things happening today, would we?

So what, may I ask, is the harm in that?

I think that is the way to go personally , if you do believe in higher purpose.

I'd say that christianity is one thing - and the teachings of Jesus are entirely another. It's perfectly possible to try and emulate jesus (apart from the miracles and resurrection) without being a christian and going to church etc.

Christianity, the C of E, the RC church etc in their representative, organized forms, do not bear much relation to the teachings of Jesus IMO.

Much can be learned from Jesus. He was certainly a revolutionary sandal wearing do gooder. More like him, fewer like Pope JP or Archbishop THingy the Druid (Actually I think the current ABoC is a pretty sound character, but it is the mere idea of having high office in the church that seems utterly self contradictory.... my €0.02)

I do believe in them, but if we don't stop over fishing there'll be non left in a few years time for anyone to believe in.

Oh god...sorry, not cod.

God - no!!

Originally posted by uniB
I do believe in them, but if we don't stop over fishing there'll be non left in a few years time for anyone to believe in.

Oh god...sorry, not cod.

God - no!!

What a pathetic post... :loopy:

Originally posted by sparklesista
What a pathetic post... :loopy:

I'm really sorry, I'll try and be more serious in the future, I aplogies for wasting eveyone's time.

No, I don't believe in god.

Better?

Lol! Yes, much better... (sort of) ;)

Nope, I'm a non-believer :)

Do have a joke though (hope no-one takes offence, not meant to be prejudiced).

What does an agnostic insomniac dyslexic do all day?
>> Stay up all night wondering if there really is a dog.

:clap:

If there is a God, I'd like him/her/it to explain the significance of all my misfortune :suspect:

Must be a man: a woman would have the world much better organised :heyhey:

I find it useful to draw comparisons between those who believe in god and those with mental health problems.

Of course, people can live with depression for all of their lives and do no harm to anyone (experiencing the afflication in a necessarily private way) but I wouldn't wish this on anybody.

Likewise, the paranoid or dillusional may have no outward sign of their condition but there is certainly something wrong with them.

However, you would be concerned if your best friend was still convinced that Father Christmad exists. And similarly, I would be worried if a normally rational friend believed that some god was watching over him at all times.

It sounds mad, and it is mad. Just socially endorsed madness really.

M

Originally posted by kittykat
I dont believe in god at all. The human brain and its thought process is so complex and there are so many things going round in our minds that we cant really work life out so we have to have some mythical being to explain everything for us and to sort us out when we are stressed or confused.

Fantastic quote Kittykat..just what I have been trying to explaint to my Jehovah's Witness wife for ages!!! (and im an atheist!!)

I think I said something similar to Kittykat somewhere in this thread and I happen to agree with that part of her quote. My opinion of the deeply religious is that they're weak minded and can't cope with real life on their own. Sorry to offend.

I don't like to disrespect other people's beliefs but sometimes I find it so difficult to understand how people can believe in something that to me seems so illogical and has caused so much suffering around the world.

I was speaking to a young lad at work on Monday and he revealed that he believes in Adam and Eve. When I asked him about evolution he said he didn't believe in it. :loopy: IMHO. We decided not to continue the discussion and changed the subject because we were probably about 30 seconds away from an argument and I didn't want to argue about religion with a work mate as I like to avoid it like the plague. :rolleyes:

Depends what you think god is.

Which god or goddess all depends on your religion.

GOD DO EXIST ,HE DOES NOT LIVE HERE HE INTENDED FOR THIS WORLD TO BE A PARIDISE HE MADE THE WORLD, HIS ANGEL WANTED TO BE LIKE HIM HAVING ALL THE GLORY FOR HIM SELF SO THE WICKED ANGEL BECAME A SERPENT AND TRICKED MAN AND WOMEN TELLING THEM THAT THEY WILL BE JUST LIKE JESUS THAT IS HAVING THE KNOWLEDGE OF LIFE , IF THEY EAT FROM THAT TREE , THEY DID THEY SINED AND SIN ENTERED THE WORLD THAT PROMISE IS STILL TO COME THE PARADISE THAT HE FRIST INTENDED............ NO ONE KNOWES THE HOUR........JOHN 14;6 BE READY.

Originally posted by SIMMER
GOD DO EXIST ,HE DOES NOT LIVE HERE HE INTENDED FOR THIS WORLD TO BE A PARIDISE HE MADE THE WORLD, HIS ANGEL WANTED TO BE LIKE HIM HAVING ALL THE GLORY FOR HIM SELF SO THE WICKED ANGEL BECAME A SERPENT AND TRICKED MAN AND WOMEN TELLING THEM THAT THEY WILL BE JUST LIKE JESUS THAT IS HAVING THE KNOWLEDGE OF LIFE , IF THEY EAT FROM THAT TREE , THEY DID THEY SINED AND SIN ENTERED THE WORLD THAT PROMISE IS STILL TO COME THE PARADISE THAT HE FRIST INTENDED............ NO ONE KNOWES THE HOUR........JOHN 14;6 BE READY.

Security! Security! He's out of bed again!

Now that's just scary!

Originally posted by SIMMER
GOD DO EXIST ,HE DOES NOT LIVE HERE HE INTENDED FOR THIS WORLD TO BE A PARIDISE HE MADE THE WORLD, HIS ANGEL WANTED TO BE LIKE HIM HAVING ALL THE GLORY FOR HIM SELF SO THE WICKED ANGEL BECAME A SERPENT AND TRICKED MAN AND WOMEN TELLING THEM THAT THEY WILL BE JUST LIKE JESUS THAT IS HAVING THE KNOWLEDGE OF LIFE , IF THEY EAT FROM THAT TREE , THEY DID THEY SINED AND SIN ENTERED THE WORLD THAT PROMISE IS STILL TO COME THE PARADISE THAT HE FRIST INTENDED............ NO ONE KNOWES THE HOUR........JOHN 14;6 BE READY.


wot a loony....and they say lettign them out into the community is a way forward!!!

It's a lovely story but shouldn't it start with 'Once upon a time' and end with 'they all lived happily ever after. The End'?

It's so nice to see this show of respect for other peoples views...

I believe in a higher power, but i'm not saying it's god or the devil! It does make you wonder, how was everything created though!!

Originally posted by evildrneil
It's so nice to see this show of respect for other peoples views...

I couldn't agree more! :rolleyes:

I may not believe in what simmer said, but where is the harm in believing it? Millions of people world wide do, are they all insane too?

I really feel sorry for people who are so lacking in empathy and don't understand that people are allowed to have different views. You may not agree with them, and it is interesting to hear discussions on different views... but to be so arrogant as to believe that you are right and somebody else is mentally ill... on something that none of you can prove one way or the other... :suspect:

Originally posted by Mattski
I find it useful to draw comparisons between those who believe in god and those with mental health problems.

I find it useful to draw comparisons between those who believe in nothing other than what they can see with their own eyes and those with 'mental health problems'. [seems like a lot of people are living depressing / shallow / meaningless lives]

Following on from what E.D.N. / Snook have just said ...

I believe it right and appropriate for all people to see "life / god / the nature of reality / <whatever>" in their own terms and with their own terminology. Whatever they are comfortable with as an idividual. What is right and beneficial for one person may not be for another.

I certainly do not think there is one right way to see things that's appropriate for all people and I certainly wouldn't want to force my own views (which I will keep to myself) on to anyone else.

Asking if you believe in the tooth fairy is as good a question !

i believe in different gods and goddesses

Originally posted by venger
Asking if you believe in the tooth fairy is as good a question !

is it?

I have yet to meet any christian , moslem, or other observant individual who discovered that their god, was in fact their parents all along, creating the universe whilst they were fast asleep in bed.

Plenty of children and adults believe in a god, but few adults believe in the tooth fairy. You would need to account for this discrepancy if you want your comparison (between the ludicrousness of believing in god/the tooth fairy) to stand up.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
is it?

I could have used Santa instead!

Not making a comparison between roles of them, merely the validity of the ludicrous claims, in my opinion.

Sorry to so negative, but smell the coffee people.

Originally posted by venger
I could have used Santa instead!

Not making a comparison between roles of them, merely the validity of the ludicrous claims, in my opinion.

Sorry to so negative, but smell the coffee people.


I have to agree with you Venger.

There is no evidence really when you think about it...

The world used to be flat, because we were told it was.

I have been into God, can be quite comfy being disillusioned.

I know I have said this elsewhere but is belief in god (small g god used to refer to generic prime creator rather than any particular dogma) any less rational and reasonable than 'the universe just popped into existance in a giant explosion that created everything out of nothingness'?

Originally posted by evildrneil
I know I have said this elsewhere but is belief in god (small g god used to refer to generic prime creator rather than any particular dogma) any less rational and reasonable than 'the universe just popped into existance in a giant explosion that created everything out of nothingness'?

Well it is a theory, youn can be sure that scientific advances will continue to bring us answers.

Originally posted by venger
Well it is a theory, youn can be sure that scientific advances will continue to bring us answers.

In theory? Its warming to see this dogmatic faith in the religion of science!

Originally posted by evildrneil
In theory? Its warming to see this dogmatic faith in the religion of science!

I have never considered science as a religion.

Not sure I understand that concept.

But then Howard (me) is not the sharpest tool in the box.

Originally posted by venger
Asking if you believe in the tooth fairy is as good a question !

In some ways, yes, I agree with you.

Believing in something, whatever that something is, is a very powerful human activity. So if you genuinely believe that the tooth fairy is real and will help you out in life, then there is real power in that.

Originally posted by evildrneil
I know I have said this elsewhere but is belief in god (small g god used to refer to generic prime creator rather than any particular dogma) any less rational and reasonable than 'the universe just popped into existance in a giant explosion that created everything out of nothingness'?

so you think that because we can't properly explain or conceptualise how the universe came into existance using the toolset of science (yet) that we should head of into lala land and make up some super being that created it.
That strikes me as very loose reasoning. There are plenty of things that we can't yet explain, maybe we should invent gluon fairies or gravity goblins to explain these things. Afterall, we can see them and even measure them. But as yet we can't quite explain them using science.

Originally posted by venger
I could have used Santa instead!

Not making a comparison between roles of them, merely the validity of the ludicrous claims, in my opinion.

Sorry to so negative, but smell the coffee people.

Exactly my point, santa and the tooth fairy are ludicrous beliefs for an adult to hold, as they will find themselves being both of those mystical entities for their children.

God is a much larger concept. Both Santa Claus and The Tooth Fairy are composite creations, (Big man, flying sleigh - small girl, little wings, magic pliers).

Have a look at the ontological argument for the existence of god. It's a bit of a con trick, IMO, but it does highlight the interesting point that the concept of God, as debated here, is pretty much an indivisible idea.

I'm a fervent agnostic. I simply don't think we have enough information upon which to base a sound, pragmatic, theory on whether the being knows as God exists or not.

On a softer level, what is it about the human psyche or perception that leads people to believe in such widely differing accounts of deities? The shape of these deities is no doubt culturally defined in large part, but I fail to see how religions would exist at all were it not for some part of the human condition that recognised or felt the existence of a "higher being".

Science has shed no light whatsoever on this phenomenon, beyond a few blundering steps in neuropsychology.

Science is a religion in that is requires faith in the authority of the peer review system. New scientific enquiries are very difficult to prove yourself, and you need to take a scientists word for it in most cases; since modern scientific discoveries demand esoteric knowledge or colossally high energies or extremely specialised equipment.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indidtinguishable from magic." Arthur C Clark

The reverse corollary would be that believing in god does not preclude the possibility that God is, or gods are, simply very technologically advanced beings.

Believing in god only seems ludicrous or outrageous if you are so completely entrenched in the macroscopic, newtonian and mechanistic axiom that you can't see out.

If you "believe" in science then you believe there is no such thing as matter, everything is a vibration, we are all part of the same universal energy matrix, that we can never ask what lies beyond the universe, and that most of the universe is just invisibly holding the rest of it together.

Newton stood on the shoulders of giants, and many stood upon his - it's becoming a bit of an edifice; with a lot of human endeavour invested in it, it's not unreasonable to suggest that Science is as much influenced by wishful thinking and educated guessing as it is by experimental fact.

I think the difficulty lies in trying to compare a belief in god with a belief in science side by side, as a belief in God means something quite different.

I'm reading a book about the history of Western Philosophy, adn I've just been reading about how people (Berkeley, Leibniz, amongst others) 'proved' the existence of God.

What struck me was that despite the fact their arguments were philiosophical rather than scientific, a lot of their arguments were based on 'common' knowledge about space and time which relativity has totally thrown out of the window.

So what I'm saying really is that God and Physics can't really be seperated. Any major advance in space-time theory further informs the debate of 1 what we mean by 'God' and 2 whether the concept of ''god' is necessary.