This makes me sick.

PETA will be at Crufts this year demonstrating against breeding dogs. I can understand (whilst I disagree in some cases) with people disagreeing with breeding dogs and I certainly don't think that breeding unhealthy dogs is acceptable at all.

However, I will be at Crufts with my pedigree dog on the day that PETA are demonstrating and what they plan to do worries me.

There arguments are ridiculous, quite frankly and they appear to be some of many who are only too happy to humanise dogs.

Here's their link: http://www.veggies.org.uk/event.php?ref=30

And I quote:
When you see that topics being featured on each day are 'Terrier & Hound' (the other victims of blood sports); 'Toy & Utility' (animals are not toys); 'Gundog' (!) and 'working & Pastoral' (animals should not be slaves) there are plenty of opportunities for local campaigns to highlight the message "don't breed or buy whilst stray dogs die".
Terriers and hounds love hunting. Anyone with a terrier or hound will tell you, toys dogs are such named due to their size but I can see how this would reflect differently to the public, I don't know what is unacceptable about 'gundog' and I don't suppose they do either due to '!' being their only argument and as for 'animals should not be slaves' I have a few issues with this statement.
Firstly, pastoral and working dogs are bored stiff if not doing what they love best - 'working'.
Secondly, what is a companion dog there for if it's not doing a job? Even as a companion it's doing a job and most dogs need some form of boundary such as a fence to be contained - are we not keeping dogs against their will in that case??

I highly doubt that not one member of PETA own a dog, and if they do, that dog came from ancestors that were bred for a purpose - if they hadn't been bred for a purpose, then there would be no domestic dogs.


Finally, they claim they will be there on the Sunday protesting. They have suggested people bring items such as:
* Dog costumes
* Cuddly dog toys
* Banners/Placards with slogans such as
o - Rescue, don't breed
o - Mutts can love too
o - Stop breeding dogs to death
o - Crufts: eugenics for dogs

They claim they are against cruelty to animals and yet are willing to dress up in dog costumes which is likely to frighten most dogs who many come across them (hopefully they won't be anywhere near dogs going into the show)

Bearing in mind, I'm doing my best to prepare my dog for this day and make it as stress free as possible because she has changed my life, she's an assistance dog, she's got a purpose and she loves it and they want to dress up in dog costumes and scare the cr@p out of her?!

IF any one of these demonstrators scares my dog I can guarantee that they will never, ever be able to remove their placard from where I'll shove it.

I don't see PETA demonstrating in front of police stations, shouting at search and rescue organisations that use dogs, or telling blind people that they shouldn't own a guide dog because it's slavery.

These people's double standards are beyond ridiculous and I intend to email and tell them so.

I think they are just another media-savvy organisation that use the niaivity of some genuine animal lovers to gain more PR and profit.

Personally.

in a way, I see their point. I happen to love a particular bred of dog which is being bred for length. I have seen some that are propotionate totheir height - but some look like they need 6 legs. Bad backs are a major problem - and it is because they are bred to look a certain way. Its a pity because they are such gorgeous little doggies.

While I don't agree with this sort of 'designer' breeding (for shows) I would never buy a mutt, because you never know what their history is: health wise, temperment, life expectancy, etc.

PETA have some good ideas, but maybe they could turn their attention to 'Dog Farms' where mutts are pumped out for pet shops.

I've started two threads elsewhere on the forum about PETA in the last couple of weeks

They've really lost the plot

Don't drink coffee whilst reading this thread (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=457153) - your keyboard will never be the same again

I found this whilst looking for other PETA things.

http://www.imapundit.com/Posts/2008/11/peta-kills-animals/

I've just waded through a heap of stuff on their own website declaring how wonderful they are looking after animals in war zones, but this information (http://www.halifaxlive.com/content/view/882/2/) wasn't on their website - funnily enough

in a way, I see their point. I happen to love a particular bred of dog which is being bred for length. I have seen some that are propotionate totheir height - but some look like they need 6 legs. Bad backs are a major problem - and it is because they are bred to look a certain way. Its a pity because they are such gorgeous little doggies.

While I don't agree with this sort of 'designer' breeding (for shows) I would never buy a mutt, because you never know what their history is: health wise, temperment, life expectancy, etc.

PETA have some good ideas, but maybe they could turn their attention to 'Dog Farms' where mutts are pumped out for pet shops.this is why I've been taking an interest in working breeds which are still working

the whole basset issue appalls me - and there's no damned reason for it - hunting bassets of today are pretty much what every basset was just 50 years ago. Here's the interesting part though - beagles in the show ring are what they were 50 years ago, it's the hunting strain that have been bred lighter and leaner, often with shorter ears, and a longer muzzle

There are qualifications a hunting hound can obtain in its own field which qualify it to enter Crufts, but how far are the two strains now removed, how would a hunting hound fare at Crufts, and when was the last hunting hound entered there?

oh, and we can thank the animal rights lot for the split from breeding for health and function - we didn't have show only hounds until the about 1960's when (for example) the albany bassets (a pack set up to 'prove' the showing hound) lost KC support - and just look where that got us.

Well done the animal rights lobbyists *slow clap*

Unfortunately as with quite a few of "public" displays of this type, the negative portrayal of the cause usually outweighs the positives to the thinking person.

Sorry - But I think their overall message is good and sound....
There are a number of breeds that have been victims of their own success - by that I mean people have bred to extremes which have caused problems in the breed - German Sheppards and hip problems
bulldogs and breathing problems

the list i 'm sure goes on ... but the basic premise of people attempting to accentuate physical idiosyncrasies through bad breeding causes un healthy dogs !

Should we stop breeding dogs just because there are dogs in need of loving homes.. well perhaps a little extreme but the basic concept is a good one. Personally I think people should consider a mutt before a pedigree but hey one reason for buying a pedigree is known quantity... I own Siamese cats because I love their temperament. But if I didn't want a mad idiot of a cat then yes I'd go rescue.

As for the post about dressing up in costumes scaring dogs OP - then sorry calm down that’s just silly.

This isn't PETA though...??

Veggies catering campaign is a different thing. (And I do miss their green trailer that used to be in the town centre when I lived in Nottingham...serving veggies burgers and "sosages" which were rather tasty...)

They just utilise a video from PETA about the US Kennel Club, so discussion about PETA's practices and shortcomings are a different issue altogether and not directly relevant to the discussion about Crufts.

If it were PETA you can be sure that the website would be a lot more glossy and some celebrity rolled out to endorse it...


As for the issue at hand, well, I do have concerns about certain breeding practices and the way "doggy beauty pageants" such as Crufts* portrays pedigree dogs, and associated vanity issues that CAN occur..I do have an ethical problem with the "valuing" of one dog's life above another, just as I have a problem with the "sale" of any life as a commodity...but that is not to say that all pedigree owners are vain and uncaring.

*Yes, I know that there is more than just a "beauty contest" but again, is a clumsy mutt that trips over its own paws of less worth than a dog who takes well to training?

So as others have said, there are certain issues that are worthy of concern and discussion - the problem is when the message is looked at in "black and white", and all pedigree owners are made to feel like they are targets for criticism, and naturally go on the defensive.

I like the PETA video too... simplistic but amusing:hihi:

Seriously though how do people feel about docking animals tails - cruel ? un-cruel ?

Personally I think there is nothing finer than a waggy tail and I wouldn’t appreciate someone cutting the lower bit of my back bone off.. but then maybe I'm a bit sensitive :)

As for the post about dressing up in costumes scaring dogs OP - then sorry calm down that’s just silly.

Excuse me????

I will reply to the rest of your post another time when I'm not working from a dongle (but would like to stress it's not their POV I have problem with, it's the way they're going about it and their daft arguments against the group names just to try and cause more grief) but 'calm down that's just silly'??

I can promise you I'm not being silly I know a fair few dogs that would be totally freaked out by someone dressed in a huge stupid dog costume and these dogs are going into a highly stimulating environment where they need to remain calm.

I know for a fact that my dog is not used to seeing people wearing dog costumes and following her demonstration when she met someone with foils in her hair, I know that she would be freaked by a huge dog costume.

So don't tell me to calm down thank you very much!

maybe if said person in dog costume cocks his leg a lamp post that would be a bit freaky :)
Or would person in costume get on all fours and start barking ? would that be scary ?

you're telling me that your dog is scared of a bloke in a costume - especially a daft costume with big ears come on.....

oh hang here's a picture of a dog scared out of its mind cos of a person in a costume
https://www.ourdogs.co.uk/News/2002/December2002/News201202/petsa.htm

maybe its the hat it's wearing !

:loopy:
seriously - and very seriously - if your dog is stressed by someone with foils in their hair, is it fair exposing her to a potentially more scary environment ? where there is more noise, more movement and generally more people. Please don't have a go, please do have a think why your dog is scared and are you making her more scared. But hey who am I to say ? Its none of my business.
If peoples remarks upset you maybe you shouldn't post on a public forum ?

No, I'm constantly working with my dog because she doesn't accept new situations as easily as some may. Easier than others.

She has done dog shows before, nothing the size of Crufts but she has done the similar environment.

I'm not only speaking for my dog, there are plenty of dogs who would be freaked out by it. It's nothing to do with the person looking like a dog, so your daft comments about peeing up a post or standing on all fours are not what I'm talking about. A dog does not know that the person is dressed up as a dog because they look nothing like one, what would freak out many dogs is something so unfamiliar. AND I am not the only one to express this concern, on another forum where I first saw this others were concerned about the stress levels caused to the dogs by this demo.

Since my dog was worried by the foils, she's met more people with foils, I've put foils in my hair and played with her, since she was spooked by someone wearing a helmet, I've worn a helmet to play with her, before she could show me that roller shutters frightened her, we spent time around shops that were closing... it's all part of owning a dog that needs lots of socialisation.

I'm now hiring a hall to go training in with other people who have dogs just to get her comfortable with working closely with other dogs in an enclosed environment (she used to be fine with it, but what with phantom pregnancies before her spay and being attacked, she's got skitty) so don't tell me whether I should or should not be taking her - I'm doing my very best and have already organised with Crufts somewhere quiet for us to go if the environment gets too much for her!!

And I've already spent a long time thinking about why my dog is scared, which is why I have come up with a training programme, through which I would certainly hope I'm making her less scared not more!

I'm back... :rolleyes: (Hopeless, I'm totally hopeless).

I felt I should make the point that I have no problem with free speech and with people disagreeing with the breeding of pedigree dogs (I personally like my pedigrees - as well as mutts - and one of mine is a rescue but I have no problem with others' opinions).

My problem lies with how they're dealing with it, the way they're portraying it and their double standards.

As for my rant earlier. I shouldn't have ranted - I wanted to make it known that I would not be taking my dog to Crufts if I felt it would damage her or be problematic for her. I work damned hard with her, as she works hard for me which is why we're through to Friends for Life and no protester is going to tell me I shouldn't be using my dog for a job.

Yes, she finds new situations difficult. Strangely enough, she should cope far better with the Crufts environment than she did with the lady who suddenly appeared (and made a fuss of her) wearing foils.

Okay, so the dog's mad and many people would say 'she shouldn't be scared of that' but she is. And I have no problem with that as long as I can work with her to make her more comfortable.

She may be schizo but she's my schizo and she's an absolute star too. She'll be just fine at Crufts because we're working hard in preparation for it. I realise srtaylo that you don't know me, and don't know what I do with my dog - but nobody is going to tell me what's right for my dog. I spent 2 years listening to other people and then had to 'fix' the problems I'd caused by doing so.

Thank you for your concern, but she'll be fine as long as some demonstrator wearing a huge dog head, doesn't scare the spots off her!

Be very careful about PETA, not many know about the darker side.. not everything is as it seems with this organisation.
http://www.petakillsanimals.com/

From a person point of view and this is only my view but i think the demo has a nice message i wish more would rescue, maybe less dogs would end up being destroyed in the pounds.
Some breeds are bred and as has been shown not for the good of the breed.

Is Takara showing then Lottie??? I always thought dogs were only allowed if they were being shown.

No she's not showing spottie, she's shown before but I never really got into it and now my mobility is too poor.

Takara's qualified for Friends for Life (which is one of the many non-conformation-showing events held at Crufts that people seem to forget about - lots of dogs attend Crufts for agility, obedience, good citizen - not showing) so we'll be there on Sunday with the other 5 nominations for the Friends for Life competition. The link in my signature explains it all :)

Be very careful about PETA, not many know about the darker side.. not everything is as it seems with this organisation.
http://www.petakillsanimals.com/

And again, this is actually nothing to do with PETA....

And again, this is actually nothing to do with PETA....

Sorry you are wrong, I have contacts in the USA and know this is correct.

Sorry you are wrong, I have contacts in the USA and know this is correct.

I repeat, this protest(which I am not involved with BTW) is NOT a PETA protest.

What PETA do in the USA on the video linked about the US Kennel Club is a matter for discussions about PETA.


FACT:

PETA are NOT protesting at Crufts.


FACT:

Discussions about the practices of PETA are therefore COMPLETELY irrelevant to this thread and distract from the issue under discussion, which is Crufts and the associated protest as seen on veggies.org.uk, not PETA

http://www.peta.org.uk/ <- search for "crufts" in their site search. I think if they were behind it they might mention it on their site, no?


So why are people waffling on about what PETA do or don't do? That's like saying that you won't support the WSPA because the RSPCA don't do enough for strays....

From a person point of view and this is only my view but i think the demo has a nice message i wish more would rescue, maybe less dogs would end up being destroyed in the pounds.
Some breeds are bred and as has been shown not for the good of the breed.
That's how it's SUPPOSED to work Spottie - people who love animals are sucked in by the 'message' this outfit use as propaganda, they have celebrities they wheel out to drum up interest, and everybody shoves their hand in their pocket

if you receive an email from a rescue you've never heard of do you click the donate button and get out your credit card? we'd all think you were mad falling for a 'scam' like that

PETA are basically crying wolf (read the links).They're accusing all kinds of organisations of animal cruelty, taking only high profile/media sensitive situations on, raking in money from all corners of the earth, and destroyed a number of dogs which would leave you crying for a week - read the link above your post - they fundraise off the back of having that shelter, yet all they're doing is destroying dogs in there :rant:

PETA are basically crying wolf (read the links).

Can you please tell me why you consider this a PETA campaign?

Going on about PETA and the (in my opinion agreeably suspect) motives of PETA is pretty much doing the same "crying wolf".

If PETA are not organising this protest about Crufts, then what is the point of the criticisms of PETA in this thread?

the relevance of my answer to Spottie is on the pound dog rescue front - PETA are destroying dogs at their supposed rescue centre

I am suggesting that people ALWAYS ask questions about what they are putting money into

Just look at the hoo ha over the RSPCA in Sheffield - it took about two years for it to become common knowledge that any money donated to the national RSPCA wasn't going to wind up building Sheffield its new rescue centre!

the relevance of my answer to Spottie is on the pound dog rescue front - PETA are destroying dogs at their supposed rescue centre

I am suggesting that people ALWAYS ask questions about what they are putting money into

Just look at the hoo ha over the RSPCA in Sheffield - it took about two years for it to become common knowledge that any money donated to the national RSPCA wasn't going to wind up building Sheffield its new rescue centre!

But PETA aren't demonstrating about crufts, which is surely what this thread is about.

Discussions about PETA are a seperate thing and surely divert from the questions about the rights and wrongs of Crufts, dog shows and the issues they raise about pedigree breeding.

One could say that picking up on the questionable practices of one large group, people are "mud slinging" and using PETA as an umbrella for all Animal Welfare/Rights groups and campaigns.

PETA is definately worthy of discussion, as someone who has in the past been heavily involved in Animal Rights to the point of being arrested numerous times (no, I never blew anything up, burned anything down or made threatening phone calls etc and was ALWAYS (before the CJ&POA1994) released without charge or cases dropped) , I can say that I do not care for them one bit. Their tactics and practices are in my opinion seriously flawed.

However focusing on the flawed nature of PETA has sod all to do with the validity or otherwise, of the points the Crufts protest raises - which is surely the point of this thread.

I was interested initially in what points would be raised, because I have always had a deep suspicion of "show dogs" and what constitutes, what practices are uset to breed, a "good show dog", and in the issue of genetic weaknesses in breeds due to "vanity breeding". I also find there is an ethical question about dogs as a commodity to be shown, and more importantly, valued financially. So my initial leanings are in support of the protest but, as I am now older and wiser than when I would follow my knee-jerk reaction, I was hoping to learn more opinions from both camps here about Crufts etc. But sadly that seems not to be, and we are just going to go on about a seperate uninvolved group and what they do.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/688360.stm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1544758/Cruelty-row-on-eve-of-Crufts.html

These may be old and laws could have changed since then but who's to say things similar to this aren't still going on.
For instance there are people near us whose very large breed show dogs are constantly living cramped up with no excersise outside of the yard and sleeping in small huts.
Barking outside left 8 hrs or more. Obviously the dogs would appear to be well looked after at the shows when its time for the families to try and make money out of them.

I find the whole thing of regularly trying to make money out of pets in this way, distasteful to say the least.

My friends have a pedigree Doberman. KC reg all the paperwork and a fantastic temperament. I've convinced them to let me try entering him to crufts next year as IMO he's a fantastic specimine. Not to make money out of him but purely because he is such a fantastic dog. Would you accuse me of just doing it to make money cos that's the feeling I'm getting.

I was interested initially in what points would be raised, because I have always had a deep suspicion of "show dogs" and what constitutes, what practices are uset to breed, a "good show dog", and in the issue of genetic weaknesses in breeds due to "vanity breeding". I also find there is an ethical question about dogs as a commodity to be shown, and more importantly, valued financially. So my initial leanings are in support of the protest but, as I am now older and wiser than when I would follow my knee-jerk reaction, I was hoping to learn more opinions from both camps here about Crufts etc. But sadly that seems not to be, and we are just going to go on about a seperate uninvolved group and what they do.ignoring the bit about what this thread is or isn't about, as I think you've misread the OP if that's the angle you see it from...

the whole point is, that once again journalists have presented a one sided story, leaving out the flip side as it suits, and now everybody and his dog (if you'll pardon the expression) have jumped on the bandwaggon, and are using this as justification for frightening the living daylights out of completely innocent dogs and their owners

Why does anybody think they have the right to intimidate other people over where they choose to go? It is the intimidation factor rather than the animal rights perspective that is causing some casual visitors to question whether they should attend or not - what does that achieve?

If you want to read about the pros and cons of the whole show arena and the involvement of the KC in dog breeding etc, please read the rather long thread provoked by the BBC programme 'Pedigree Dogs Exposed', so we don't all have to retype what we've already written on the subject ;)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/688360.stm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1544758/Cruelty-row-on-eve-of-Crufts.html

These may be old and laws could have changed since then but who's to say things similar to this aren't still going on.
For instance there are people near us whose very large breed show dogs are constantly living cramped up with no excersise outside of the yard and sleeping in small huts.
Barking outside left 8 hrs or more. Obviously the dogs would appear to be well looked after at the shows when its time for the families to try and make money out of them.

I find the whole thing of regularly trying to make money out of pets in this way, distasteful to say the least.

so once again, ONE person becomes EVERYBODY involved in an aspect of dog ownership :rolleyes:

From what I've read, people who are anti-fur are crazed lunatics who set fire to department stores and attack people for the clothes they wear... or is that not what you are? ;)

Why does anybody think they have the right to intimidate other people over where they choose to go? It is the intimidation factor rather than the animal rights perspective that is causing some casual visitors to question whether they should attend or not - what does that achieve?

I suppose that depends on whether you find a person dressed in a dog costume "intimidating". The OP's dog is a nervous dog by nature so is a more unusual case.

People DO have the right to protest, whether or not you agree with their view or not, so in thinking that they have a right to do so, they are correct.


so once again, ONE person becomes EVERYBODY involved in an aspect of dog ownership

That was exactly my point in challenging the PETA posts, that ONE group becomes EVERY GROUP involved in an aspect of animal welfare/rights

Helena C that ridiculous website you refer to was created by the deceitfully named Center for Consumer Freedom (CCF), which is a front group for Philip Morris, Outback Steakhouse, KFC, cattle ranchers and other animal exploiters that kill millions of animals every year. The newspaper USA Today suggested it should rename its website “FatforProfit.com”. Perhaps you should google consumerdeception, or put a bit more effort into your research before posting such misinformed comments.

Lotti, that website you mentioned is clearly not a PETA website and I would suggest you also take the time to better inform yourself before so aggressively spreading your misinformation on public forums.

If you suspect there will be protestors outside of Crufts that might potentially terrify your dog, why do you still intend to go? It certainly can't be for his benefit. If there are any protestors there, they would be there to stand up against dogs suffering painful and debilitating disorders by being bred for exaggerated physical traits. How can that make you so angry?

I find it astonishing that people claiming to care about animals can sit on these message boards attacking people that devote their lives to trying to protect them. Why don't you direct your 'fuming' anger at organisations that cause animals to suffer rather than those doing their best to stop it?

Helena C that ridiculous website you refer to was created by the deceitfully named Center for Consumer Freedom (CCF), which is a front group for Philip Morris, Outback Steakhouse, KFC, cattle ranchers and other animal exploiters that kill millions of animals every year. The newspaper USA Today suggested it should rename its website “FatforProfit.com”. Perhaps you should google consumerdeception, or put a bit more effort into your research before posting such misinformed comments.

Lotti, that website you mentioned is clearly not a PETA website and I would suggest you also take the time to better inform yourself before so aggressively spreading your misinformation on public forums.

If you suspect there will be protestors outside of Crufts that might potentially terrify your dog, why do you still intend to go? It certainly can't be for his benefit. If there are any protestors there, they would be there to stand up against dogs suffering painful and debilitating disorders by being bred for exaggerated physical traits. How can that make you so angry?

I find it astonishing that people claiming to care about animals can sit on these message boards attacking people that devote their lives to trying to protect them. Why don't you direct your 'fuming' anger at organisations that cause animals to suffer rather than those doing their best to stop it?This thread is over a year old hun:)

Thanks. It's a shame that there are still so many inaccuracies in these posts though. I'm glad that anyone reading in future will have some information about the CCF rather than taking those misleading statementes at face value.

I think you'll find mimi if you did you research on the members that have posted on this thread you'd find that most (if not all) have been or are involved in rescue or training in some form or another.

Lottie's dog was actually up for the friends for life section at crufts not the show ring. She also has a rescue dog. Why should she be stopped from going to an event because some idiot decided it would be a good idea to dress up in a fluffy costume to try and get their point across? Why not protest without the costume? Oh that's right cause it get's peoples attention. It shouldn't be attention they were trying to get but should have aimed at presenting a well rounded argument in order to inform people!

Are you seriously arguing that your dog will be scared of people wearing costumes.
I don't actually believe you, even if you are saying that, I've never met a dog that cared about what someone was wearing.

I think that in this case PETA have a point, they probably aren't making it very well and the way they generally behave is not to my taste, but your arguments against their protest are very weak.

I think you'll find mimi if you did you research on the members that have posted on this thread you'd find that most (if not all) have been or are involved in rescue or training in some form or another.

Lottie's dog was actually up for the friends for life section at crufts not the show ring. She also has a rescue dog. Why should she be stopped from going to an event because some idiot decided it would be a good idea to dress up in a fluffy costume to try and get their point across? Why not protest without the costume? Oh that's right cause it get's peoples attention. It shouldn't be attention they were trying to get but should have aimed at presenting a well rounded argument in order to inform people!

Who's at fault here then, someone dressing up, or someone taking their dog to a place where it's known that someone is going to be dressing up...

Who's at fault here then, someone dressing up, or someone taking their dog to a place where it's known that someone is going to be dressing up...


Because then they'll have won. Their whole reason for demonstrating is to put people off going. People go with dogs so they are attempting to freak the dogs out with shouting, waving banners, and dressing up. And if anyone owned a dog will know thats the sort of thing that would freak a dog out. My puppy spent 20 mins barking at a traffic cone the other day.

Yet they are supposedly demonstrating about about animal welfare and are purposely going out there way to freak the dogs out.

As it is there were none there this year so clearly they realised that the media bandwaggon against pedigree dogs is coming to an end because nothing significant has changed about crufts

Who's at fault here then, someone dressing up, or someone taking their dog to a place where it's known that someone is going to be dressing up...

I think if you read the thread the dog owner is just basically saying it is another thing for the dog to cope with if there is a loads of protesters shoving and shouting at the entrance. This was a thread from 2009 and the owner reported back in another thread that the dog was fine with everything :)

As for PETA, I agree there is a lot of misleading information on this thread about them, personally I do not agree with some of their 'shock' methods and the amount of incorrect science they think they can palm off on people. If you are going to change peoples minds you have to present the facts honestly otherwise in my view they are just playing the same game as the organisations they are so against.

I'm very glad the dog was fine, but I'm sorry that her guardian waswilling to take the chance that she wouldn't be.

Suggesting that protestors are there to scare dogs is absurd. They're there to protest a show that actively encourages breeding dogs to have unnatural and debilitating physical traits. Official breed standards state that Pekinese must have a flat profile but that judges should consider signs of respiratory distress, and that dachsunds must have a long back and short legs but must have its body suffciently clear of the ground to allow free movement, or a bulldog's head must be large in proportion to its body but not so much as to make the dog appear deformed. There are even cradles contraptions on the market to allow them to mate with the help of only one person. Basically standards require features that are likely to cause physical problems, but the show dogs themselves should be free of these problems. It's twisted. The RSPCA recently published an independent scientific report that said that the Kennel Club haven't even come close to adequately addressing the breeds whose anatomies still raise serious welfare concerns.

For those of you that think that protestors trying to raise awareness about these issues are the ones in the wrong, then there's something seriously wrong with your moral compass.

Firstly i dont agree with alot of things when it comes to animals and the more people to fight against it the better...HOWEVER how do you expect Lotties dog to grow more at ease around people if she cant go to where she will be around people.

How intimidated would you feel a person three times your size jumping around in a dogs suit?

People may go with there dogs not realising there will be people in costumes. Surely there has to be some other way of demonstrating, big banners, HELIUM balloons always catch peoples eyes, free doggie biscuits ... fair trade were doing free tea and coffee in town.

Stop bickering at each other, Lottie and other members on this forum only have the animals best interests at heart - isnt that what everyones after so why try and prove each other wrong???

I'm very glad the dog was fine, but I'm sorry that her guardian was willing to take the chance that she wouldn't be.

Suggesting that protestors are there to scare dogs is absurd. They're there to protest a show that actively encourages breeding dogs to have unnatural and debilitating physical traits. But will be quite happy for their behaviour to scare animals. Pot, kettle. black springs to mind here :hihi:


Official breed standards state that Pekinese must have a flat profile but that judges should consider signs of respiratory distress, and that dachsunds must have a long back and short legs but must have its body suffciently clear of the ground to allow free movement, or a bulldog's head must be large in proportion to its body but not so much as to make the dog appear deformed. There are even cradles contraptions on the market to allow them to mate with the help of only one person. Basically standards require features that are likely to cause physical problems, but the show dogs themselves should be free of these problems. It's twisted. The RSPCA recently published an independent scientific report that said that the Kennel Club haven't even come close to adequately addressing the breeds whose anatomies still raise serious welfare concerns.

I don't think many people disagree that some breeds have been been bred to extreme, it will take years to breed it all back out. There is certain breeds that I love but would refuse to ever buy as the health implications that run throughout the breed seem cruel to me.

For those of you that think that protestors trying to raise awareness about these issues are the ones in the wrong, then there's something seriously wrong with your moral compass.

Arrhhh, this is the problem. I have I think everyone is intitled to their veiw and to raise the isuues but how they choose to go about it is a completely different matter. When you know people who have had bricks through the windows and their life endangered by people 'raising awareness' there is a big problem. Protests are great but personally I always think they should be before the events not at them! :lol: If you've paid to go your not going to change your mind at the last minute and then will feel intimidated and run right past it all :hihi:

"Are you seriously arguing that your dog will be scared of people wearing costumes.
I don't actually believe you, even if you are saying that, I've never met a dog that cared about what someone was wearing."

I used to ride a Motorbike and the amount of dogs that really freaked out about the helmet was staggering. From dogs in the street to my grandparents dogs who know me by smell. So dogs do care about what people are wearing as most dogs are very responsive to body language and facial expressions so i can really see why a big dog costume could freak a dog out.

Didnt wanna reply as this is an old thread but so many people suggesting this is daft must not have a wide experience with dogs or they would understand why this could bother them.

Gareth

Nicely said Gareth...Dogs just dont like things pretendig to be something different.

Ultimately it's the guardian's responsibility to ensure that their dog is properly cared for. There are plenty of ways to she could help her dog to become more at ease around other people, but taking her to a stadium with thousands of people doesn't strike me as one of them. Why should a nervous dog ever need to be at ease in that type of situation anyway? You can see people in costumes on the high street collecting for charities or what not, it's a ridiculous thing to squabble over as you say. However, the thing that prompted me to comment here is the title of the thread and Lottie's comments about shoving pacards up protestors' rear ends. Hardly justified when they are there to try to speak out against cruel breeding practices, and blaming them for her dog being scared just takes the biscuit. She should be providing a safe environment for her dog and not putting her through any undue stress rather than berating protestors who are there out of a genuine concern for animals.

Ultimately it's the guardian's responsibility to ensure that their dog is properly cared for. There are plenty of ways to she could help her dog to become more at ease around other people, but taking her to a stadium with thousands of people doesn't strike me as one of them. Why should a nervous dog ever need to be at ease in that type of situation anyway? You can see people in costumes on the high street collecting for charities or what not, it's a ridiculous thing to squabble over as you say. However, the thing that prompted me to comment here is the title of the thread and Lottie's comments about shoving pacards up protestors' rear ends. Hardly justified when they are there to try to speak out against cruel breeding practices, and blaming them for her dog being scared just takes the biscuit. She should be providing a safe environment for her dog and not putting her through any undue stress rather than berating protestors who are there out of a genuine concern for animals.

The guardian of the dog I think is very aware of her dogs limits and abilities. I think what they were worried about is a load of protestors shouting and being aggressive to people entering the building, scary enough for many humans and when you are in a wheelchair with your dog who helps you, even more annoying as you depend on the dog.

Protesters will get no where forcig their opinions onto people, instead of insulting Lotti try asking her why it would affect her dog and be polite instead of everyone b***ching off at each other...grrrr

This thread started with a rude and abusive message filled with completely inaccurate information directed at a group that had nothing to do with the protest.

For accuracy's sake, actually protestors have achieved a great deal.

"Never underestimate the ability of a small group of dedicated people to change the world. It’s the only thing that ever has" —Eleanor Roosevelt

PETA are flipping barmy, they ran a compaign to rename 'fish' to 'sea-kitten' to make them endearing so you wouldn't want to eat them :loopy:

I'd love to know what die hard 'animal rights' activists do when their children are ill. Do they just sit there and pray because they sure as hell couldn't take them to the hospital (animal testing and all that).

In this case however I do agree with them in some ways, so many pedigree breeds are frankly, horrible abominations of nature. Nobody needs a cat that's lacking half it's face or a dog that's got five times as much skin as it should have.

If a person suffered some mutation that caused such a problem, you'd feel terribly sorry for them, you wouldn't be thinking how great it would be if they slept with their deformed cousin and had even more deformed babies :loopy:

PETA are flipping barmy, they ran a compaign to rename 'fish' to 'sea-kitten' to make them endearing so you wouldn't want to eat them :loopy:

I'd love to know what die hard 'animal rights' activists do when their children are ill. Do they just sit there and pray because they sure as hell couldn't take them to the hospital (animal testing and all that).

In this case however I do agree with them in some ways, so many pedigree breeds are frankly, horrible abominations of nature. Nobody needs a cat that's lacking half it's face or a dog that's got five times as much skin as it should have.

If a person suffered some mutation that caused such a problem, you'd feel terribly sorry for them, you wouldn't be thinking how great it would be if they slept with their deformed cousin and had even more deformed babies :loopy:

Yeah, what awful people they are, wanting to live their lives in a compassionate way that minimises suffering, and trying to campaign because they think the suffering impossed on animals is wrong. Terrible people :loopy:

This thread started with a rude and abusive message filled with completely inaccurate information directed at a group that had nothing to do with the protest.

For accuracy's sake, actually protestors have achieved a great deal.

"Never underestimate the ability of a small group of dedicated people to change the world. It’s the only thing that ever has" —Eleanor Roosevelt

Yes, but it certainly appears to be a group which has a warped idea of what actually constitutes helping animals. Or do you dispute the figures in this article (http://www.imapundit.com/Posts/2008/11/peta-kills-animals/) about them?

I don't think many people would consider that an animal welfare group which puts down over 90% of the pets it "rescues" is doing a particularly good job.

Right. I ignored this thread being dragged back up because the poster who dragged it back up clearly couldn't tell how old it was. For some reason I looked at it tonight and realised I was being slated so would like to put a few things straight.

First thing - it's a year old, it's over and done with, the protest was pathetic as it happens. Get over it.

Secondly - My dog and I were in Friends For Life, after dedicating her life to helping me and mine to caring for her. I was concerned by how she would cope with the protest - as it happens they were not too close to the dog doors but you can guarantee that if there had been any chance that they had been bigger or nearer and able to scare her I would be kicking up a fuss and ensuring that they were either shut up or moved before my dog even entered the building!

There is no chance whatsoever that I would put her at risk physically or mentally.

I also discovered last year at Crufts that I had to trust myself, and her, a lot more than I did. She aced it. She was so well behaved and she took it all in her stride and she returned this year to do the same.
I should've had more belief in myself that the work I had put in would pay off but I didn't until she had shown me.

As it happens, this year we had children grabbing at her, adults grabbing at her, groups of people kneeling down next to her to have their photo taken with her and we did walk past someone in a big dog costume and guess what? She took it all in her stride. Because of all the hard work I had put in with her and because she's such a damned good dog.

I have three dogs - all pedigree dalmatians, one is Takara who did Friend For Life with me, she came from a breeder, she had a very short show career in which she did well but it just wasn't for us. She enjoyed being centre of attention but to be honest, it just didn't float my boat.
The second dog - a 15 year old rescue dog who came to us at 11.5 years of age when he was put up for adoption and we were sure it would be hard for such an elderly dog to find a new home. He's made a big turn around since coming to live with us and is now 15 years old and doing well.
The final dog is a 6 month old deaf puppy who was in need of a good home as a baby when her breeder had her BAER tested and discovered she was bilaterally deaf. She asked me if I would have her because she trusted me to look after her, train her and not to breed from her.

So before you judge me for not caring and putting my dog in a situation she can't cope with, think about the effects your words could have. My dogs are my life. Completely. Without them I doubt I'd even be here. Takara really turned me around when she came into my life and I owe everything to her. Your throw away comments could mean a lot more to the person they're against.

I'm sure that earlier in this thread I acknowledged my mistake re. who was holding the protest though to be perfectly honest I am not going to trawl all the way through it again, it's history as far as I'm concerned.

Crufts is a dog show and yes they do conformation shows but there is a lot more to it than that and to be honest, I'm sure there are plenty more important things to address.

Who's at fault here then, someone dressing up, or someone taking their dog to a place where it's known that someone is going to be dressing up...

So instead I should've refused to go, dropped out after having done all the lead up, given up on getting my dog the recognition I believe she deserved just in case the rumour was true??

I emailed Crufts, I told them that though my dog was well socialised, well trained, had done dog shows before, and should be fine, she had never done something as big as Crufts and I didn't know how many factors would build up to contribute to her stress levels. I therefore asked them to ensure there would be somewhere I could take her if she had had enough and needed a break, somewhere quiet and away from the crowds. I refused to go until I knew this would be the case.
They reassured me that she would definitely be able to go for a break should she need it but she never did.

Thing is guys, the main reason Takara helps me is my anxiety disorders, she helps with my physical disabilities but it is the anxiety that she helps with most. Anyone with anxiety will dream up worst case scenarios and dwell on them.
She's helped me so much that I've come a long way since then and though I still panicked this year as to whether she'd be ok, once agan she did me proud.

If my anxiety had been at the level it is now, last year - this post would probably have never come up. It worked me up because I knew what sort of stressors build up tension within dogs and even dogs who are normally fine, once the factors build up, it can stress them out.

So yes - it's my fault for taking her somewhere I wasn't sure about but I also had my mum there telling me she would be fine (see, sensible head) and there is NO way that I would've been going through the doors once I got there if there was any chance she might get upset by it.

This year, she got to the car park and realised where we were and got so excited and if she'd had it her way, she'd have dragged me into the dog show!

It's an interesting point you raise about people breeding dalmatians and deaf puppies.
Maybe peta have a point, and dog breeding isn't really about the welfare of the animals anymore, if it ever was.
I'm not about to go out and protest, and my parents have just got a new, pedigree puppy, but if I ever get a dog, which is mainly dependant on being at home more and work less, then to avoid hypocrisy it'll have to be a rescue and/or mongrel.

Yes, there has always been a link between predominantly white dogs and deafness - it's to do with the gene that causes a lack of pigment and any predominantly white mongrel can also carry it. The only difference is mongrels aren't tested for it which means owners can be unaware of any hearing impediment, particularly if the dog is unilaterally deaf. This then puts the dog in danger should the owner try to recall the dog from the side he can't hear from.

Breeders work very hard to breed this out by ensuring every puppy is BAER tested and any dog found to be unilaterally or bilaterally deaf is not bred from as it is a hereditary condition.

Some breeders will even put deaf puppies to sleep, to ensure that the gene is not continued but thankfully my puppy's breeder has come out of the dark ages and refused to do this to Bubble. She now lives a full and happy life with me and my other two, fully hearing dalmatians.

Nobody can tell Bubble is deaf when they meet her, she responds incredibly well to body language and I have very good control of her, she goes off the lead and recalls perfectly, she plays with other dogs nicely, plays with toys and is well trained.

My fully hearing girl has always been quite noise sensitive and I've had to work hard with her to get her over things like fireworks, loud shouting, crashing noises, motorbike exhausts etc. etc.

My deaf girl never gets riled by the postman coming because she can't hear him, she never has to worry about fireworks, loud shouting, crashing noises or motorbike exhausts.

She doesn't care when some idiot in the park is shouting and bawling at their dog thinking it will get them to do what they want, because she can't hear, she can go to a training class and concentrate on me when all the other dogs have started barking because one did.

Oh how sad it is that she is deaf. She must be missing out :rolleyes:

Yeah, what awful people they are, wanting to live their lives in a compassionate way that minimises suffering, and trying to campaign because they think the suffering impossed on animals is wrong. Terrible people :loopy:

Did I say they were awful and terible? No I did not, I said they were 'barmy', which is quite different. I was just wondering how they reconcile their beliefs with the 'real world' as it were, which is a perfectly valid query.

I think its disgusting that the thought of putting a dog down because it is deaf even comes up!!! if its known to be deaf just the knowing it will not get bred and getting it neutered is enough but its obvious by how happy bubble sounds that just cause a dog is deaf doesnt mean it cant lead a happy fun filled life.

i think PETA need to concentrate on the more severe cases at hands such as puppy farms and other cases of animal cruelty before trying to stop people eating fish...sorry...seacats.

For gods sake in future read how old a post is, people can change alot within a year...

I think it's even more disgusting that someone as involved with dogs as Lotti should have to justify her opinions in such a personal manner.

Totally agree with FallenAngel - they can spend their time and resources in posing naked or in dresses made out of cabbage or pretending to be packaged meat or chucking blood at people, OR they could actually take some REAL action and help animals that really need them.

Oh how sad it is that she is deaf. She must be missing out :rolleyes:

You're entirely missing my point, which is that hereditary deafness is something that breeding has created and that breeding pedigrees continues to ensure will happen. Efforts to avoid passing on the deafness are, whilst to be welcomed, an effort to avoid a problem that we have created.
Pedigree breeding is not a good thing, not for the dogs, of which many breeds suffer from various hereditary problems caused by breeding and not for humans.
It isn't a comment on any specific dog, nor did I suggest that they can't enjoy their life even though they have a hereditary problem caused by breeding.
Try to look at the bigger issues here, rather than just your own personal circumstance and dogs.

Did I say they were awful and terible? No I did not, I said they were 'barmy', which is quite different. I was just wondering how they reconcile their beliefs with the 'real world' as it were, which is a perfectly valid query.

I'm sorry, I was ill last night and not in a very good mood. I know that's no excuse and I shouldn't have taken it out on you, it just put my back up a bit. I'll try n be a bit more sensible :thumbsup:

Basically, what I meant to say:

Most animal rights activists/vegans etc will try to live their lives in the most compassionate way possible - they won't unnecessarily consume any animal products in any form, and most buy organic, fair trade etc - basically they're thoughtful about what they consume and the impact they have on the Earth and those living in it (human and non-human animals). "Activists" feel strongly about living compassionately and want to educate others about the awful things animals endure at humans' expense. Most are peaceful, but the odd one will take it too far and give the other 99% a bad name, which isn't fair.

Anyway, whilst most disagree with vivisection, and many campaign against it, if they or their children should need medical attention, then they will take it. The whole distinction is between want and need.

That said, vivisection is not necessary and in fact pretty unscientific. But that's a whole other debate and not something to be discussed in this thread.

You're entirely missing my point, which is that hereditary deafness is something that breeding has created and that breeding pedigrees continues to ensure will happen. Efforts to avoid passing on the deafness are, whilst to be welcomed, an effort to avoid a problem that we have created.
Pedigree breeding is not a good thing, not for the dogs, of which many breeds suffer from various hereditary problems caused by breeding and not for humans.
It isn't a comment on any specific dog, nor did I suggest that they can't enjoy their life even though they have a hereditary problem caused by breeding.
Try to look at the bigger issues here, rather than just your own personal circumstance and dogs.

I actually have to kind of agree with Cyclone here :/ i remember seeing a video in college about dogs and how constant breeding of animals had caused them to develop different disabilitys, such as the English Bull dogs nose is so short it has greater difficulty breathing, the sausage dog (Cant remember the official name for the breed) has been bred to be so short legged it has bad back pain (think someone mentioned that) Bloodhounds suffer eye problems, your big dogs such as great danes and dobermans suffer from heart problems due to their size, and your westies, dalmations and other terriers can suffer from skin problems, and its all down to the constant breeding and in breeding etc.

HOWEVER on the other note none of that is Lotties or any other dog owners fault, its who ever began to breed them, breeders tend to only breed the same breed of dogs, this is all down to our ancesters inbreeding dogs to try and get what they want, and it wouldnt suprise me if someone out there was trying to breed a chiwuaha with a great dane to try and get a Great Chiwuaha (i know i spelt it wrong).

The owners who take the dogs are just there to love them and give the dogs the best life possible so they certainly dont need preaching too, after all they are not the ones breeding them.

HOWEVER on the other note none of that is Lotties or any other dog owners fault, its who ever began to breed them, breeders tend to only breed the same breed of dogs, this is all down to our ancesters inbreeding dogs to try and get what they want, and it wouldnt suprise me if someone out there was trying to breed a chiwuaha with a great dane to try and get a Great Chiwuaha (i know i spelt it wrong).


I met an old man who had a Chihuahua X Staffy recently when walking my dog - that was one odd looking doggie!! :hihi: (Sorry bit off-topic there! ;))

haha i can imagine lol

It's not entirely the owners fault, but they do have to share some of the blame.
Anyone who buys a pedigree is contributing to the demand which is why breeders continue to breed. If people stopped buying them and deliberately sought out mongrel or took rescue dogs then the breeders would soon stop and ultimately there would be less dogs left in rescue centres.

That said, I can't help but love the Weimeraner puppy my parents have got, our older dog died several months ago quiet early at the age of 10, but apart from a little arthritis he never suffered from any breed specific issues as far as we could tell.

People go for pedigrees simply for the fact they KNOW the breed and they know if they are the right dog for them, if you get a mongrel you dont know what your getting, you could get A mongrel and instead if ut just having one inherited disease or disability it could have ten...

The chances of a mongrel having any hereditary disease are much lower than of a pedigree having one. In general they are healthier and more balanced dogs, ignoring environmental influences which can make any dog unhealthy and less stable.
Obviously that's a generalisation, but it is one that is supported by the evidence of studies.

All im saying is me as a mother of a 9 month old would look for breeds that are good with children, i know that St Bernards, Labs, Golden Retrievers, etc have a good reputation with children, and i would look for those types of breed in specific or cross breeds IF i knew what breeds were in them, so for example a lab cross collie...

A person with a disabiity would go for a breed that is known for being patient and not needing as much excercise as a husky would need or a collie would need so a retriever, or a dalmation etc

I could go on but im hoping you get what i mean. Some people also tend to go for dogs that they have known growing up, i had a collie for four years and he was a beautiful smart amazing dog and i would LOVE to have another Collie, my partner grew up with a whippet and he feels comfortable with that breed.

Its risky taking on a mongrel....but people do it and im sure if i met the right mongrel i would take on one.

Lottie obviously feels more comfortable with dalmations and loves the breed and she has rescued one of her dogs...at least they are with good owners, all the owner thinks is "i want to give that doggy a loving home" nothing else, no bad intentions, no singling out, just the love for that dog.

It's not entirely the owners fault, but they do have to share some of the blame.
Anyone who buys a pedigree is contributing to the demand which is why breeders continue to breed. If people stopped buying them and deliberately sought out mongrel or took rescue dogs then the breeders would soon stop and ultimately there would be less dogs left in rescue centres.

That said, I can't help but love the Weimeraner puppy my parents have got, our older dog died several months ago quiet early at the age of 10, but apart from a little arthritis he never suffered from any breed specific issues as far as we could tell.

I dont agree with breeding to show standards however all pedigree dogs are being tarred with the same brush. I brought my Pedgree dogs from working lines. My dogs parents were worked on shoots and as a result as much bigger and stronger a result. They're completely useless as show dogs and are about as far from the breed standard as they can be. However this comes at the cost of dogs with strong working instict and they can become destructive if not properly stimulated.

If we also sought mongrols I strongly belive that the quality of dogs would be lost.There are some brillient breeds out there and it would be a shame to loose them as a result of us all seeking out mongrols.

I know someone who rehomed a jackrussel cross as a puppy. This dog grew to be as big as a lab and is completely unsuitable for his family situation. Its too large and has a strong working instict. God knows whats in it as it essenailly acts like a collie. Whilest my friends a firm believer in proving a home for life he admits hes considered rehoming it as its just not the right dog for him. However if hes got a pedigree he would have more of a clue about what to expect in terms of size and temperment. Whilest its a lovely idea that we all stoll down to rescue centres and pick up whatever mongrol takes our fancy In practice people like to know what they're getting as it allows them to pick a dog to suit their lifestyle and live a happier lives with their dogs as a result

Cyclone - did you completely miss my point at the beginning. Any white MONGREL can be born deaf also.
It is the white gene, and yes - it is a problem created by humans, and yes I am contributing to it by buying them (out of three, I only bought one, by the way) however pedigree dogs will not cease to be. People wanting pedigrees want to know a certain degree about the dog they are getting, the size it will get to, the general temperament and traits of the breed (though every dog's an individual and as much as there are similarities between my three, they're all very different too).
Breeders who are now breeding out these problems can only be applauded in my eyes. If they stopped doing it to ensure no problems were carried on then it would only leave the backyard breeders who don't even bother with health checks.

I hope to some day have other breeds/cross breeds of dogs - whichever end up in rescue really but I will never stop loving dalmatians just because someone on a discussion forum thinks that I'm being selfish by doing so.

I only came on here to fight my corner re. taking Takara to Crufts and I've done that so I shan't be bothering to return to argue about pedigree vs mongrel - I've done it all before and they're all worth the same in my eyes. It's a pointless argument and I won't be part of it.

And thank you to those who have stuck up for me, I do appreciate your support. As I'm sure most people on here know there is absolutely no chance I would ever willingly put any of my dogs into a situation they couldn't cope with.