Totally anonymous poll

whats a racists anyway ? SOMEONE WHAT LIVES IN A NON COUNCIL STATE AREA > :loopy:

Mod. Note

Interesting topic.

Now, the ground rules.

Keep to the subject, and avoid the slanging matches. If one breaks out I'll immediately ban the instigator. If it wanders off subject, I'll delete the posts and, if necessary, ban the posters.

Thanks for your co-operation. Let's see if we can have a thread on this topic without it degenerating.

Joe

Interesting whenever someone says "I'm not a racist, but..." it is normally followed by a racist remark!

Lol ok so what is a racist?,Is it someone who hates people of a different color or is it someone who dislike other people if they are foreign? Even if they are white.
And as we know racism can be a two way street,and I myself have been called a racist for wanting to preserve my culture and identity.
As the saying goes one mans racist is another mans hero.,its hard to define in my book.

Tricky one this - good question.

I would have to say no, I don't judge a person upon their race rather upon their attitudes and actions - a person is just that, a person and not representative of the whole of their race.
My dad gave me the best piece of advice years ago "You can't judge a race on your experience of meeting just one person, every nation on earth's got it's pillocks".

I reckon we're all the same at heart some are greedy, some stupid, some gifted, some saintly, some wicked, some loving but once you get down to it we're all human. As Huey from the FLC eloquently said "We all bleed red, even the racist mother*******"

Just out of interest, what is the point of this poll and what will you deduce from the results? If the majority of people say they are racist what does it mean if you do not know the race of the people who have cast their votes.

As I said I am just asking this out of interest and not trying to be provocative in any way.

im never racist god created us all the same but where i live in tinsley they are racist to white people like myself,boyf and others why?we have done nothing but been nice to thm and what do we get slagged off by thm.

I am not racist - there are good and bad in all races and cultures. Funny though some people I know who say they are not racist still say they wouldn't like there son or daughter to marry outside their own race!

Originally posted by polish_lady
Lol ok so what is a racist?,Is it someone who hates people of a different color or is it someone who dislike other people if they are foreign? Even if they are white.

That's assuming the person being discussed is white :)

A racist is someone who is prejudiced or biased against someone because of their race, which has a wonderfully vague definition; it is a distinct group identifiable by genetically transmitted physical characteristics, or it is a group classified together on the grounds of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution.

It's kind of a catch-all term for an irrational hatred of group of people who are different from the group(s) to which you belong, and is largely equated with xenophobia.

I would not class myself as racist. Just like Swan_Vesta i jude people by their actions. I have two Indian colleagues who annoy the hell out of me with their attisudes. One tries to take everything over, and the other sucks right up to the bosses and gets out of the dirty jobs that the rest of us have to do. I do not dislike these people becuase they are Indian, i dislike them because of their actions.

Why do racist who try to claim they are not racists actually say they are not racialists?

I only ever hear the word racialist used by people with a history of bigoted and racist attitudes and actions, when they claim they aren't it.

Maybe the phrase "not a racialist" means "is a racist" ;)

--
JGH

Tricky question

I am certainly guilty of stereotyping and generalisation.

I do say very negative things about french people for instance.

I should think we are probably all a bit racist, the important part is how hard we try to view each person as an individual rather than as a member of a larger group.

My mate works with asylum seekers from all over the world and she thinks they are all, by definition, wonderful, even though some of the people she works with are not.

That is racist too I suppose and no better.

But we do love to generalise and stereotype so I dont know how we will improve.

Originally posted by theflyingfish
Interesting whenever someone says "I'm not a racist, but..." it is normally followed by a racist remark!

Ah. As opposed to that great Sheffield opener "I'm not being funny right, but..." Because it's always followed by exactly what is advertised - a statement so toe-curlingly unfunny it makes your hair stand on end and your eyes start from your head.

"It's kind of a catch-all term for an irrational hatred of group of people who are different from the group(s) to which you belong, and is largely equated with xenophobia"

Avalon has a point you know. Racism is not, as Spiffy would have it, a black and white issue. The irrational hatred - or rational, depending on how you look at it - of those different to oneself isn't racist. It's just a fear and loathing of otherness. Personally I find the young Asian lads who large it down the Abbeydale road in their vile blinged-up Honda Civics incredibly offensive. But that's because I have room in my philosophy for neither threatening and arrogant behaviour nor bad-taste cars driven in a manner likely to endanger the public. Couldn't give a monkey's about the colour of the offenders' skin, nor the nationhood of their forebears. I just don't dig spoilt, arrogant people. I am personally arrogant to a huge degree, but I don't deploy the trait to make other people feel small or indeed frightened. Quite how Pedro at the Grand Potato puts up with the local yoof innit is quite beyond me.

In short, racism is neither a banner to be waved about willy-nilly by the righteous, nor a catch-all, failsafe knee-jerk reaction to be deployed by minority groups every time one of their number has their conduct questioned. It's time we looked beyond race to try and find the underlying problems that it masks.

Tough one this, but I've gone for 'Aren't We All?' as I believe we all have an inherent "us versus them" attitude, at least in an almost primal sense.

Am I a racist per se? I think not, but others may think otherwise. I don't think it's a get-out clause to be able to say 'My workmate's Indian' or 'Our Doctor's a lovely guy and he's from Bangladesh'. We can all get on with each other with no problems because in the main I believe we all share the same goals.

But I also believe we are all different to some extent and there's nothing wrong in that. (Hence my dislike for a European State at the behest of our individual identities.) We should all celebrate what makes us all different, unique and distinguishable from others.

Ofcause, this relies on toleration & acceptance. But wouldn't the world (or just Europe) be boring if we were all alike?

Thus, let's congratulate each other on our separate backgrounds, religions, colours and cultures - but let's also be honest enough to admit we're not literally cut from the same cloth.

In other words, in order to live side-by-side, let's cut each other some slack.

Naturally, this is my opinion (albeit, it looks a bit stronger in print).

I'm not racist, I dislike all people equally on an individual basis.

There are many, subjective definitions of the term 'racist' which are presented as if they are objective definitions. For example, the sociologist, Anthony Giddens believes that it is 'racist' to categorise human beings in terms of the broad, typological groupings still used in physical anthropology, i.e, Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid, Australoid and Cappoid. By this definition, many working within the latter discipline are 'racists'. I reject this reasoning completely.

Giddens also argues that anyone who believes in 'discredited' ideas about innate differences between human populations in terms of intelligence levels and personality types is also 'racist'. Again, I reject his argument. He appears to be ignorant of a vast literature on the subject of geographical variations in intelligence and personality type, contributed to by the likes of Arthur Jensen, Hans Eysenck, Richard Lynn, Roger Pearson, J.P. Rushton etc. These scholars, with unassailable, world-class reputations in the respective fields of genetics, psychology and anthropology provide cogent evidence to the contrary. There are differences, and not just in terms of phenotypal [ immediate physical appearance] aggregates of physical characteristics between human populations. They are genetically-based, and we should be allowed to say so.

Richard Lynn [an evolutionary psychologist] refutes the label 'racist' . He believes in innate differences between populations in terms of intelligence etc, and acknowledges that those of the left/liberal consensus view his work as 'scientific racism'. In Lynn's view, a genuine 'racist' is someone who lumps together all members of a human group typologically, in order to mistreat them.

In my case, I am inclined to believe the compelling evidence from Lynn et al re geographical variations in human intelligence etc. However, like Lynn, I acknowledge 'overlap' in IQ, and accept that we cannot lump together all members of a human group based on average IQ scores and the results of personality tests. Because I believe in inherited differences, some would call me a 'scientific racist'. I refute that term, and add that I have no desire to judge an individual of any group based on 'averages' from scientific tests, nor do I wish to mistreat anyone.

Life is to short too hate or be a racist!

Originally posted by timo
There are many, subjective definitions of the term 'racist' which are presented as if they are objective definitions. For example, the sociologist, Anthony Giddens believes that it is 'racist' to categorise human beings in terms of the broad, typological groupings still used in physical anthropology, i.e, Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid, Australoid and Cappoid. By this definition, many working within the latter discipline are 'racists'. I reject this reasoning completely.

Giddens also argues that anyone who believes in 'discredited' ideas about innate differences between human populations in terms of intelligence levels and personality types is also 'racist'. Again, I reject his argument. He appears to be ignorant of a vast literature on the subject of geographical variations in intelligence and personality type, contributed to by the likes of Arthur Jensen, Hans Eysenck, Richard Lynn, Roger Pearson, J.P. Rushton etc. These scholars, with unassailable, world-class reputations in the respective fields of genetics, psychology and anthropology provide cogent evidence to the contrary. There are differences, and not just in terms of phenotypal [ immediate physical appearance] aggregates of physical characteristics between human populations. They are genetically-based, and we should be allowed to say so.

Richard Lynn [an evolutionary psychologist] refutes the label 'racist' . He believes in innate differences between populations in terms of intelligence etc, and acknowledges that those of the left/liberal consensus view his work as 'scientific racism'. In Lynn's view, a genuine 'racist' is someone who lumps together all members of a human group typologically, in order to mistreat them.

In my case, I am inclined to believe the compelling evidence from Lynn et al re geographical variations in human intelligence etc. However, like Lynn, I acknowledge 'overlap' in IQ, and accept that we cannot lump together all members of a human group based on average IQ scores and the results of personality tests. Because I believe in inherited differences, some would call me a 'scientific racist'. I refute that term, and add that I have no desire to judge an individual of any group based on 'averages' from scientific tests, nor do I wish to mistreat anyone.

You were almost convincing Timo, but then you mentioned IQ tests and I realised that if you'd done any reading on this subject, you'll know that they are almost universally accepted as flawed as an objective measure of intelligence.

In fact if you've done any really reading on psychology (apart from "scientific racism for beginners"), you'll realise the science is still at the stage where they are debating the question 'what is intelligence?'.

Yours is a world where everything is (ahem) black and white. The reality is, it's all a little more quantum mate.

Wow, I didnt expect a debate on this subject, but there you go. Some very honest opinions out there.

Ive come across lots of racism over the years from all colours, even my own, which is weird.

I wouldnt say everyone is racist as some peple think, but I do feel that everyone is slightly prejudiced towards their own so to speak.

For instance --> 2 people are about to fall off a cliff. You can only save 1. Both are equally far away from you, both are same sex and same weight, and both have an equal chance of survival if you try to save them. Only difference is one is not the same race as you. Who do you save?

Originally posted by Danio
Life is to short too hate or be a racist!
Oh I dunno... With careful time management I am able to fit it all in. :heyhey:

Originally posted by E-Man Groovin
Yours is a world where everything is (ahem) black and white.
The reality is, it's all a little more quantum mate.

It is interesting to me that the most common response to any reasoned (if incomplete) argument is 'your world is black & white but reality is different'.

The question in the poll is 'Would you say that you are racist?' with the answers 'Yes' and 'No'. Of course, there are varying _reasons_ why you say one or the other, but it comes down to 'yes' or 'no'. This is a question of absolutes, you either would, or you would not, say you are racist.

If you say that you are 'a bit' racist, is that a yes? How can it be a no?

The problem with this question is the inherent negativity brought on by the subject matter. A variation, 'would you say that you hold prejudices?', would provoke much less emotional response and, I would wager, a more open and free debate.

People don't like to be pushed into a corner. You probably wouldn't be surprised how many people have relatively minor prejudices against one race or another while considering themselves non-racist, and that's fine. The media definition of a racist is a scum-filled villain, whereas most racial prejudice is held by people who, for one reason or another, have had their views tarnished by one or more negative experiences.

Incidentally, I wouldn't say I am racist, but I would be foolish to deny that I hold any prejudices at all, as would anyone. And I am wearing flame retardent underwear :)

Even the mention of the word racism is enough to have the moderators on this site burning the back of their necks on the interior light. The threat of an instant ban is immediately thrown up into our faces. This is not only to prevent racist remarks (although only by their standards) but it instantly throttles any freedom of speech a user thought he/she had from the get go. Racism simply cannot be discussed on a public forum, I thought you would have realised that by now. People who harbour racist feelings (and that is their right) will not comment for starters, the PC buzzards are circling the thread, and we all know and see on a regular basis how the chosen few get the upper hand with their prefferential treatment by the "editors". So instead of beating around the bush why dont you simply ban all race discussions and get it over with, after all this is the goal of the politically correct.

Originally posted by Ousetunes
Tough one this, but I've gone for 'Aren't We All?' as I believe we all have an inherent "us versus them" attitude, at least in an almost primal sense.

.

I agree with that to a certian degree.

Most people would support a person they shared the same nationality with or city of origin, but would not support someone of the same ethnicity, because they would consider that racist.

What is the difference between a Caucasian English person supporting an English athlete in the Olympics when they’re competing against a German or Japanese athlete and a Caucasian English person supporting a Caucasian athlete against an Aborigine, Negro or Mongoloid athlete.

I don’t see any difference. People tend to support ‘their own’. That’s perfectly natural.

Personally I don’t support people because they happened to be born in the same country as me; I find it xenophobic and exactly the same as supporting a white athlete over a Negro. I judge someone on his or her personality not nationality or ethnicity. I don’t buy into supporting Kelly Holmes or Paula Radcliffe just because they were born in the UK.

We are all individual, we all have a right to be treated like anyother human on this planet, with respect!!!
no matter what colour/sex/religion we are.
we all bleed the same blood.
Human blood.
:)

I just assumed most of you on the forum are racists, look back on the hate list you started, most hate americans and cavs isn't that a start.

i dunno what to say here withoubt causing offence, erm im sure someone sed something racist sometimes in their life, be it saying something about australians, italians, pakistanis and so on.. but its difficult 4 me to determine whats racist and whats not!

For instance --> 2 people are about to fall off a cliff. You can only save 1. Both are equally far away from you, both are same sex and same weight, and both have an equal chance of survival if you try to save them. Only difference is one is not the same race as you. Who do you save?

The one with the biggest boobs!

Originally posted by ryan123
i dunno what to say here withoubt causing offence, erm im sure someone sed something racist sometimes in their life, be it saying something about australians, italians, pakistanis and so on.. but its difficult 4 me to determine whats racist and whats not!
Racism it appears is now defined as anything that goes against the doctrines of political correctness. Thats how they crush freedom of speech, by making "you" believe that "your" opinions are racist.

Originally posted by 21steve
The one with the biggest boobs!

I did say that the ONLY difference was their race ;)

Originally posted by spyro2000
For instance --> 2 people are about to fall off a cliff. You can only save 1. Both are equally far away from you, both are same sex and same weight, and both have an equal chance of survival if you try to save them. Only difference is one is not the same race as you. Who do you save?

The cutest one.

Originally posted by poppins
I just assumed most of you on the forum are racists, look back on the hate list you started, most hate americans and cavs isn't that a start.

American is a nationality, not a race.

Chav is more complicated and involves social group, style and behaviour, but most definitely not race.

So I guess you'd be wrong about most of us.

Originally posted by spyro2000
Wow, I didnt expect a debate on this subject, but there you go. Some very honest opinions out there.

Ive come across lots of racism over the years from all colours, even my own, which is weird.

I wouldnt say everyone is racist as some peple think, but I do feel that everyone is slightly prejudiced towards their own so to speak.

For instance --> 2 people are about to fall off a cliff. You can only save 1. Both are equally far away from you, both are same sex and same weight, and both have an equal chance of survival if you try to save them. Only difference is one is not the same race as you. Who do you save?

neither, because we spend too long worrying about the newspaper report will say and they both fall.

What a ridiculous question, an impossible situation and one that no one could answer until they found themselves in that situation, and finally the type of situation where a decision isn't made rationally.

Most people would probably go to the right, for some reason people just prefer turning right most of the time.

Originally posted by Cyclone
Chav is more complicated and involves social group, style and behaviour, but most definitely not race.


Though hateing people because they wear hoodies and baseball caps and look "intimidating" is as stupid as hateing someone because they are a different colour to you.

Originally posted by Cyclone

What a ridiculous question, an impossible situation...


Maybe so, but im sure you know where Im coming from dont you???

Originally posted by nick2
Though hateing people because they wear hoodies and baseball caps and look "intimidating" is as stupid as hateing someone because they are a different colour to you.

yes, i'd agree.
I don't hate chavs though, so it's okay. Neither for the record do I hate Americans, although I have issues with the American states foreign policies.

spyro - no not really. The question is an impossible hypothetical situation, so it has no relevance to anything. People can always be differentiated by something other than skin colour.
So we might be relatively shallow and rescuse the cutest one as nick suggested. Or we might go right (people do really prefer to turn right, no idea why, but several studies have shown it), or we might rescue the one that shouted loudest, or didn't shout. who can say. What I can say is that I wouldn't base it on skin colour.

Originally posted by Cyclone
So we might be relatively shallow and rescuse the cutest one as nick suggested.

There is nothing shallow about going for looks most people would if they had to choose between two people just by looking at them.

Originally posted by nick2
There is nothing shallow about going for looks most people would if they had to choose between two people just by looking at them.

i wasn't accusing you of being shallow. Of course if they are hanging of a cliff you have to go by the cuteness of their finger tips, which might not match the rest of them.

God help anyone relying on me to save them from falling off a cliff...

I would go for the nearest one I suppose, or the one on the left - I go left as a rule, by force of habit, or more likely I would be looking round wildly for someone to assist me.

I certainly wouldnt be engaging myself in a discussion about which colour I preferred to save.

Yes I am racist, all my family are and we are quite proud of what we are.

We have no trouble telling anyone
________
butt Cam (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/webcam/anal-sex/)

Why are you only 'quite' proud?

E Man Grooving,
I mean you no offence here, but please do not assume that I am unfamiliar with the arguments against IQ tests. I teach and publish in social science, so I am very, very familiar with the literature on the subject. The main argument suggests that IQ tests are 'culturally-biased'. This, I accept to a degree with regard to language-based intelligence. However, the 'cultural bias' argument fails to hold water when applied to mathematical tests of visio-spatial ability.

Believe me, I do not see the world in a reductionist, 'black and white' way. Causality is usually due to a cluster of variables, rather than a unitary explanation in this world. As I said clearly in my posting, I accept the concept of 'overlap' in IQ tests anyway, regardless of whether the strengths outweigh the weaknesses or vice-versa in relation to validity. I make it clear that I do not judge individuals based upon 'average' scores in scientific tests, nor do I wish to harm anyone.

Originally posted by Swan_Vesta
"You can't judge a race on your experience of meeting just one person, every nation on earth's got it's pillocks".


Wise man your dad!

:clap:

I go along with the comments from A J on this,now you have to be P C or you will be tagged with this term, or some other silly remark.
I myself have been called racist simply for wanting to preserve my culture and identity and if this is classed as racist then I for one will hold my hands up and say yes I am racist .
And this also applies to the ethnic minorities in this country,they are also racist in that they keep to themselves and by and large stay in there own communities.

Roy, out of interest, is resorting to racial intolerance the only way to preserve 'your' culture? Just wondering. Dont want to get too off topic. It is just that a clear point of being a racist is believing that certain races are superior to others.

Tomato.

coming from an anarchist, living in pitsmoor point of view id have to say "very anti racist" :)

On such a (generally speaking) predominantly liberal forum is it not an eye opener that over 30% of users so far admit to being out and out racist?

Originally posted by t020
On such a (generally speaking) predominantly liberal forum is it not an eye opener that over 30% of users so far admit to being out and out racist?

liberal forum? where?
did i miss something?

:)

Originally posted by melthebell
liberal forum? where?
did i miss something?

:) Of course this is a liberal forum, as, in the main, Sheffield is a Labour-voting city, with no Conservative constituencies; only one (I believe) is Lib. Dem.

You only need to look at how high the stack of Guardian's are in local stores.

:)

IM WHITE.... AND IM NOT BLIND

THAT MAKES ME RASCIST DOESN'T IT ?????????

Personally I don't think so but as I aint a minority my thoughts don't count.....

DO THEY

Originally posted by jonsastar
IM WHITE.... AND IM NOT BLIND



well at least your not in a minority there then :)

Originally posted by spyro2000
Totally anonymous poll

No it's not :wink:

Originally posted by vidster
No it's not :wink:

lol, well it was certainly suppose to be anonymous. Shows how much I know :)

Originally posted by royjames
I myself have been called racist simply for wanting to preserve my culture and identity and if this is classed as racist then I for one will hold my hands up and say yes I am racist .
And this also applies to the ethnic minorities in this country,they are also racist in that they keep to themselves and by and large stay in there own communities.

It's not racist to want to preserve your culture and identity, whatever you mean by that (Morris dancing, disco music, tea and biscuits with scones?)

Neither is it racist to keep yourself to yourself, that's a very puzzling definition.

(from answers.com) Racism: the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races.

I wouldn't class myself as a racist, I treat anyone the same whether they're black, white or from Mars.. The only real fly in the particular ointment is my disdain for Americans, based on my online experiences on US based forums I've posted at in the past and currently..

The annoying thing is that most of the arguments stem from the fact that I'm not afraid to admit that I'm an Xbox fan by nature, and they don't like that cos they're all Sony fanboys who love their PS2s and woe betide anyone who doesn't share THEIR viewpoint on certain gaming and other issues... :loopy:

all racisms bad no matter which partys doing it..immigrents or the people of the host nation.

Originally posted by melthebell
all racisms bad no matter which partys doing it..immigrents or the people of the host nation.

Im inclined to agree.

Theres no need for racism whatever your colour and no matter what your experiences. 2 wrongs dont make a right.

Originally posted by spyro2000
Im inclined to agree.

Theres no need for racism whatever your colour and no matter what your experiences. 2 wrongs dont make a right.

but can be fun MUHAHAHAHAHAHA


jk :P

With regards to being racist, I dont really think I am. Maybe everyones idea of a racist differs.
I do however sometimes feel that certain topics that involve certain ethnic groups have become almost taboo due to pressure from politically correct aspects of our society. Almost as if the powers that be are deliberately making us feel racist simply because we have issues involving certain groups.
All aspects of todays life should be able to be questioned, thats freedom of speech.
As for the anti-American stuff, well I despise the current governing power of the US, despise their imperialistic aggressive foreign policies. I am not however anti-American, despite some of my posts, which are mainly in jest....poppins ;)

I posted earlier in this thread, my aim was at Joe P and his warning note. I now wish I had not targetted Joe because he was after all doing his job. I apologise to Joe for my post, without the mods with us, posts, in particular posts regarding race would quickly spiral out of control. I have a tendency to react too quickly to some posts and this was indeed such a case. Please accept my apologies Joe.

Originally posted by AJ sheffield

I do however sometimes feel that certain topics that involve certain ethnic groups have become almost taboo due to pressure from politically correct aspects of our society.

well thats wrong too ....even tho i suppose i am quite politically correct being an anarchist, i also hate the way political correctness has gone so far and so stupidly

Originally posted by timo
[nor do I wish to mistreat anyone. [/B]

No, I don't believe you do, Timo. But on other threads you have had a good laugh about how 'crap' the music of 'primitive tribes' is (I am paraphrasing, before you start), compared to what you clearly view as the 'culturally superior' western tradition (which I also love). It's no surprise then that you have a head full of this 'scientific fascism' or whatever it is you're banging on about. 'Lefties' may object to it, by the way, simply on the grounds of, 'what is the point'; so there are genetic differences between people in Uzbekistan and people in Tadcaster? Quelle surprise.

If to be racist is to view ones race (ie white northern european - you know, like the dudes who wrote the 'western tradition') as 'intrinsically superior'....what does that make you?

As for Mr James.......no, I can't be bothered........

Originally posted by Rich

The annoying thing is that most of the arguments stem from the fact that I'm not afraid to admit that I'm an Xbox fan by nature, and they don't like that cos they're all Sony fanboys who love their PS2s and woe betide anyone who doesn't share THEIR viewpoint on certain gaming and other issues... :loopy:

Now you're tackling the *really* big issues. :rolleyes: :hihi:

Originally posted by timo
There are many, subjective definitions of the term 'racist' which are presented as if they are objective definitions. For example, the sociologist, Anthony Giddens believes that it is 'racist' to categorise human beings in terms of the broad, typological groupings still used in physical anthropology, i.e, Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid, Australoid and Cappoid. By this definition, many working within the latter discipline are 'racists'. I reject this reasoning completely.

Giddens also argues that anyone who believes in 'discredited' ideas about innate differences between human populations in terms of intelligence levels and personality types is also 'racist'. Again, I reject his argument. He appears to be ignorant of a vast literature on the subject of geographical variations in intelligence and personality type, contributed to by the likes of Arthur Jensen, Hans Eysenck, Richard Lynn, Roger Pearson, J.P. Rushton etc. These scholars, with unassailable, world-class reputations in the respective fields of genetics, psychology and anthropology provide cogent evidence to the contrary. There are differences, and not just in terms of phenotypal [ immediate physical appearance] aggregates of physical characteristics between human populations. They are genetically-based, and we should be allowed to say so.

Richard Lynn [an evolutionary psychologist] refutes the label 'racist' . He believes in innate differences between populations in terms of intelligence etc, and acknowledges that those of the left/liberal consensus view his work as 'scientific racism'. In Lynn's view, a genuine 'racist' is someone who lumps together all members of a human group typologically, in order to mistreat them.

In my case, I am inclined to believe the compelling evidence from Lynn et al re geographical variations in human intelligence etc. However, like Lynn, I acknowledge 'overlap' in IQ, and accept that we cannot lump together all members of a human group based on average IQ scores and the results of personality tests. Because I believe in inherited differences, some would call me a 'scientific racist'. I refute that term, and add that I have no desire to judge an individual of any group based on 'averages' from scientific tests, nor do I wish to mistreat anyone.

Having only dipped into the work of Lynn and the rest of the race science gang, I can't claim to be an expert on their musings. But it seems to me that until you actually know exactly how the brain functions in terms of interpreting the world around it, it's pointless to start pontificating about relative levels of intelligence. Science hasn't reached that stage yet.

Thus, the terms are so loose as to make the evidence meaningless: how do you possibly compare 'intelligence' between 'races' and 'cultures' that experience and interpret the world in completely different ways? Life isn't a computer programme, and some things cannot neatly be measured using integers and algebraic equations, no matter what academic convention demands.

And what is the point of race science, anyway, apart from to justify the ethos of the right-wing Pioneer Foundation who fund this 'research'?

Snooty,
If you had read my posting on the music thread properly, you would know that I was poking fun at the sometimes dire examples of so-called 'World Music' offered by certain labels. I had previously acknowledged the merits of non-European Classical traditions, i.e, Indian ragas such as 'Raga Yaman'.

Please do not accuse me of ever claiming that white, europid caucasoids are innately 'superior'. I have never said anything of the sort. Actually, if you care to trawl back through previous postings I have made on the subject of geographical variations in intelligence levels, you will find that I cover the evidence from the work of Richard Lynn, and Charles Murray/ Richard Hernstein. These authors claim that Mongoloid peoples [Chinese, Japanese etc] tend to outstrip white caucasoids in terms of visio-spatial intelligence. Whites tend to do better in terms of language-based intelligence tests. Actually, I have never made any claims of my own, merely covered the work of others that I tend to side with. This is quite different from your potentially libellous accusation.

Be careful 'Lord Snooty', your carefully cultivated 'genial' mask is beginning to slip and you are sounding very, very 'chippy'. Be careful too, about what you accuse other posters of on an open internet forum. I have always been good-humoured towards you, and am puzzled as to why you choose to post something as hostile as this in my direction.

I personally believe that everyone is racist. It's human nature and if you don't thonk you are its likely you are just covering it up.

Well, it's definitely not my nature. I think since human beings are inherently social creatures it is not in our nature to be racist, however, we are instinctively selfish - our instincs tell us to survive. As most racism is based on fear of losing what we have to another race this type of racism is based on ignorance rather than hatred. I think even though by nature we are selfish it doesn't mean we have to act upon it, thats why we have intelligent brains (alledgedly!)

Racism based on hate because of the colour of a persons skin rather than fear that another race might take over our little set up is illogical and crass, I don't understand how those peoples minds work and I don't really care because they offer no valid arguments and don't listen to anyone elses point of view.

Originally posted by timo
E Man Grooving,
I mean you no offence here, but please do not assume that I am unfamiliar with the arguments against IQ tests. I teach and publish in social science, so I am very, very familiar with the literature on the subject.

The thing about talking about any objective measure of intelligence is what is it that you are measuring?

It strikes me that intelligence is not a measurement of the ability of a mind, so much as a perception of that ability in the mind of an observer.

When we test intelligence, it does not reveal much about the intelligence of those tested, but actually reveals more about our perceptions of what constitutes intelligence.

In other words, IQ tests tell us naff all about someone's intelligence, but reveal a lot about how the test writers define intelligence themselves.

And of course any definition of intelligence is going to be woefully incomplete.

IQ, Intelligence Quotient, is not just misleading, it's a total misnomer.

Am I a racist? Well no, I don't believe in inherent superiority of any race or people. I do believe we all have vestigial xenophobia to some degree, but this is usually ameliorated by a well developed sense of empathy and self awareness.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
The thing about talking about any objective measure of intelligence is what is it that you are measuring?

It strikes me that intelligence is not a measurement of the ability of a mind, so much as a perception of that ability in the mind of an observer.

When we test intelligence, it does not reveal much about the intelligence of those tested, but actually reveals more about our perceptions of what constitutes intelligence.

In other words, IQ tests tell us naff all about someone's intelligence, but reveal a lot about how the test writers define intelligence themselves.

And of course any definition of intelligence is going to be woefully incomplete.

IQ, Intelligence Quotient, is not just misleading, it's a total misnomer.

Am I a racist? Well no, I don't believe in inherent superiority of any race or people. I do believe we all have vestigial xenophobia to some degree, but this is usually ameliorated by a well developed sense of empathy and self awareness. But that's it, xenophobia is a fear of other races not a hatred. We don't need to be afraid of other races, just their governments and power tripping leaders. Hitler was someone to be affraid of but he wasn't german. Obviously we believe what we see, read and hear, so do another nations - none of us have very much choice in the end.

I'm not a racist - I dislike everyone! :D

By that I mean stereotypes of any 'group'.

And stereotypes create themselves.

I would like to say that.....Yes...I am racist....because a lot of people say that I am due to my opinions regarding people of other cultures.

I am however, married to a person of another race/culture.
My Son has married a wonderfull person from Indonesian stock who is the mother of my grandson.

The issue of racialism is not black on white or vise versa, in fact we are all racial to one extent or other.

If I dont accept someone because of their actions or a general dislike of a person through their personality and they happen to be of a different race...then for some reason one is classed as being a racist.

The problem with this country is that too much emphasis regarding racialism has been forced upon us which in its self has created a situation where people dislike other races because they themselves have been made to feel second class and inferior because of the double standards that the race card can be used against them.

It is quite amazing that A white english person cannot claim racial discrimination in this country as the first question on the document for laying a charge is as follows.

What Ethnic minority group do you belong?

It’s an interesting defence for fascists to say they have not got anything against other cultures they are merely trying to preserve their own, but this doesn’t really hold up.

For arguments sake lets say that from 1950 English culture existed in a pure form, since that date Englishness has been challenged, but by far the greatest challenge has come from one other culture in particular: America.

Our language, films, music, television, fashion and lifestyle have all to borrow a phrase been ‘swamped’ by American culture. So if the fascists are only out to preserve ‘Englishness’ what are they doing to stop Americanisation. This is clearly the biggest threat to our culture.

Bizarrely one look at the out put from people like Roy James and the entirety of their posts seems to be about the danger from Islam, but I can’t remember ever going to the cinema to see a Muslim film or listening to Muslim music, in fact I find it hard to think of any significant changes to my culture bought about by Islam.

So you see Roy if you really cared about protecting English culture you would mobilise against it’s greatest threat Americanisation, but since you and your party are motivated by hatred for other races and religions you focus your efforts only in attacking non white threats to our culture.

Originally posted by AJ sheffield
Even the mention of the word racism is enough to have the moderators on this site burning the back of their necks on the interior light. The threat of an instant ban is immediately thrown up into our faces. This is not only to prevent racist remarks (although only by their standards) but it instantly throttles any freedom of speech a user thought he/she had from the get go. Racism simply cannot be discussed on a public forum, I thought you would have realised that by now. People who harbour racist feelings (and that is their right) will not comment for starters, the PC buzzards are circling the thread, and we all know and see on a regular basis how the chosen few get the upper hand with their prefferential treatment by the "editors". So instead of beating around the bush why dont you simply ban all race discussions and get it over with, after all this is the goal of the politically correct. I have to agree with you. Racism is an important issue but invariably gets out of control. I think people who are totally committed to their point of views and some would classify them as racist, will post their thoughts because thet truely believe in them and it then becomes a slanging match. It's a very emotive subject. People end up saying things to others that they wish they could take back (I have done just that and thought later 'that sounds so petty') you can't unsay something. If you remove the post out of respect and apologize it might be forgiven but once it's been read by the person, even if they accept your apology, they can't unread it!

Hate to say it but Blacks, no problem. But I have a real loathing of most Asians, mainly due to their smell. Sorry but it puts me right off.

In fact I dont like any smelly people so maybe I'm not actually racist?

I voted for the aren't we all option. I've got a mate who is a Sikh, drink with a Shi'ite Muslim and so on through creeds and races and my favourite part of Sheffield is round Pitsmoor and Burngreave.

However I don't do enough about the exploitation of the developed world over the developing world and that's a form of racism.

I hate racism, but perhaps we're all a bit racist... to a point.

For example... I don't think of myself as racist, and I dispise people who persecute others just because of the colour of their skin.

But then again, I dislike Americans. I wouldn't use the word 'hate', but I suppose it's still a bit racist.

It's not a completely irrational dislike. I spent three months working in America so I've come into contact with a fair few of them. And I also aknowledge that not all Americans are the same.

Still dislike the majority of them though. It would be interesting to start a poll with different nations on it and see which was the most unpopular, but don't think the mods would let us.

Originally posted by coopster1974
Hate to say it but Blacks, no problem. But I have a real loathing of most Asians, mainly due to their smell. Sorry but it puts me right off.

In fact I dont like any smelly people so maybe I'm not actually racist? It's very strange that you think most Asians smell! Everyone has a certain smell you know? So do other peoples houses simply because they don't smell like your own. I'm not saying it's a bad smell, just different. You get used to the smell of yourself but other people don't. You will smell to other people. If a person doesn't eat dairy products (vegans - back me up please!) people who do eat dairy products like milk, cheese and cream, smell strange to them.:o

Originally posted by tulip
It's very strange that you think most Asians smell!

I wouldnt exactly say it was "strange"

You will smell to other people.

Yes - of nice things

Originally posted by coopster1974
I wouldnt exactly say it was "strange"



Yes - of nice things Like what? Do you eat garlic? I do and so do my friends and family so we don't smell it on each other. Do you drink alcohol? I don't so I would be able to detect when someones's been drinking. You have made statements about how you think a huge section of the word smells to you and how you only smell of nice things! Have you anything to back it up with?:)

Why yes I have but we would be moving way off topic - keep on track babe.

ps Idaho once - she was very good!

Originally posted by coopster1974
Why yes I have but we would be moving way off topic - keep on track babe.

I suppose it can't be helped if you can't think of anything but if you dislike people for smelling different then I would say, it's a racist opinion. I know you said '& people who smell in general' but you also said 'most Asians' That is a huge part of the population of the world that you are grouping together there, so I think it's still on topic. Just an observation:thumbsup: You could ask a mod.?

I could ask you as you seem to know everything. But then you have probably been brainwashed by the American way of lording it over everyone else.

if you dislike people for smelling different then I would say, it's a racist opinion - puuuuuuuurrlease :loopy:

Have a nice day

Originally posted by coopster1974
Hate to say it but Blacks, no problem. But I have a real loathing of most Asians, mainly due to their smell. Sorry but it puts me right off.

In fact I dont like any smelly people so maybe I'm not actually racist? Well, sorry you did put a question mark there and I presumed you was asking for an opinion.

No, I couldn't be brain washed by Americans as I have my own thoughts and opinions as do the rest of the indivduals who live in this country. America is a vast country made up of many different cultures and nationalities.

I don't know 'everything', Like most people I know very little. I never claimed to be a genius like Steven Hawking:)

have to support tulip here, saying that you don't like people who smell is fine, saying that all asians smell is firstly nonesense and secondly racists nonesense.

I was once given a flyer by the White Nationalist Party that claimed (amongst others crap) that all ethnic minorities smelt. Kind of gives you a clear indication of the sort of people who adopt such ridiculous beliefs.

Originally posted by coopster1974
I have a real loathing of most Asians, mainly due to their smell. Sorry but it puts me right off.

Are you sure the smell isn't the toxic waste dump at Shirecliffe that you're living next to?

Which 'asians' are referred to? Tibetans? Pathans? The Han Chinese? Perhaps the Hmong of Vietnam? The Mongols? Maybe the Wazirs? Are they all 'smelly'? God alone knows what any of those people would make of some of our 'Underclass' of oafs and oafesses?

Originally posted by timo
Which 'asians' are referred to? Tibetans? Pathans? The Han Chinese? Perhaps the Hmong of Vietnam? The Mongols? Maybe the Wazirs? Are they all 'smelly'? God alone knows what any of those people would make of some of our 'Underclass' of oafs and oafesses?


The smell of curry should stay on the plate just like the smell of BO should get washed away.

I smoke and some people find that smell "offensive". Do I care? No - that is their opinion to which they are entitled just like my opinion is stated above.

Originally posted by coopster1974
Hate to say it but Blacks, no problem. But I have a real loathing of most Asians, mainly due to their smell. Sorry but it puts me right off.

In fact I dont like any smelly people so maybe I'm not actually racist?

so Asians smell do they?

Do you smell of the s*** you are spouting?

Originally posted by Abdul
Are you sure the smell isn't the toxic waste dump at Shirecliffe that you're living next to?

Such an intelligent thing to say Abdul. As per usual. So where are we supposed to live in this city then? Does it have to be your street to be ok????

Mod:

Knock it off you two. This is a warning before the bans start flying. :nono:

:loopy: i dont like other countries, sausage eating germans, frog leg eating french, dog eating koreans but ive met indeviduals from all these countries who ive liked a lot.
isnt it time we stopped judging poeple by race and started judging people like individuals?
dont like brummies or cockneys either.
:loopy: :D

Originally posted by Abdul
Are you sure the smell isn't the toxic waste dump at Shirecliffe that you're living next to?

T'is the smell of sweat and curry - not the nicest combination Granted not all do suffer with this smell but the ones that do I try and breathe through my mouth.

Just the same as when I breathe through my mouth when I encounter tramps who stink be they white or otherwise.

That is my opinion. You may not agree but you must respect the fact that I have the right to express it.

Originally posted by bigsteve
:loopy: i dont like other countries, sausage eating germans, frog leg eating french, dog eating koreans but ive met indeviduals from all these countries who ive liked a lot.
isnt it time we stopped judging poeple by race and started judging people like individuals?
dont like brummies or cockneys either.
:loopy: :D Am I missing something?:confused: Are you being ironic? I haven't lived in Sheffield for a long time & I think your sense of humour went over my head!:)

Originally posted by coopster1974
T'is the smell of sweat and curry - not the nicest combination Granted not all do suffer with this smell but the ones that do I try and breathe through my mouth.

Just the same as when I breathe through my mouth when I encounter tramps who stink be they white or otherwise.

That is my opinion. You may not agree but you must respect the fact that I have the right to express it. Oh well, If thats your opinion and you are happy with it. I don't see much sense in disputing it, it's not like anyone can change your mind:thumbsup:

Originally posted by bigsteve
:loopy: i dont like other countries, sausage eating germans, frog leg eating french, dog eating koreans but ive met indeviduals from all these countries who ive liked a lot.
isnt it time we stopped judging poeple by race and started judging people like individuals?
dont like brummies or cockneys either.
:loopy: :D

Whats wrong with brummies? :rant:

I think everyone is racist, just like everyone is sexist, ageist, nerdist, ginger hairist, too tallist, too shortist... I think I've made my point.

Originally posted by Trever
I think everyone is racist, just like everyone is sexist, ageist, nerdist, ginger hairist, too tallist, too shortist... I think I've made my point.

and you are right. not many people will accept it but you are.

we all have ingrained human prejudices

Originally posted by tulip
But that's it, xenophobia is a fear of other races not a hatred. We don't need to be afraid of other races, just their governments and power tripping leaders. Hitler was someone to be affraid of but he wasn't german. Obviously we believe what we see, read and hear, so do another nations - none of us have very much choice in the end.
I suppose my implicit point was that racism and other hateful dogmas that presuppose inherent superiority of one set of human above another, are propagated through processes that trade upon vestigial suspicion of the unfamiliar which I think is evolutionary in origin.

If one is to have dogma, better one that trades upon the inherent altruism and curiosity of the human.

why canoot people accept this.

I have friends from all races.

I don't even notice that they are different to me.

simple

are you a decent person?

yes?, then you are my friend.

no other issues involved.

Originally posted by robbie
and you are right. not many people will accept it but you are.

we all have ingrained human prejudices

Yes true, but is there a difference between being racist and being prejudiced?

I (and I thing we all have) basic prejudices.

However, I treat all people equally.

I couldn't give a stuff ehat backround a person is from.

its how they are as a person

I've had mates for years who I haven't even realised that they aren't whit.

never crosses my mind.

a friend is a friend

Originally posted by robbie
I (and I thing we all have) basic prejudices.

However, I treat all people equally.

I couldn't give a stuff ehat backround a person is from.

its how they are as a person

I've had mates for years who I haven't even realised that they aren't whit.

never crosses my mind.

a friend is a friend Although I agree with most of what you say, I cannot agree that skin colour is not noticeable. I notice the skin colour of my friends just as they notice mine. It's like not noticing someones hair colour. There isn't anything wrong with noticing it. I think some people who had been on a tropical holiday and came back with a deep tan would be very upset if you said "you look as white as ever to me"!. I should imagine someone who had different colour skin would feel offended if you said that you saw them as white, like it was a privilege to be white. I can tell you have good intentions and mean well:)

Originally posted by spyro2000
Yes true, but is there a difference between being racist and being prejudiced? I think so. You could be prejudiced against someones culture and belief but not feel racist toward them. Certain religions annoy me because of hypocrisy but if a person has a faith and they believe in it I respect that. I might not agree with thier religious view but I don't challenge it either. I don't feel that it's my right.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
I suppose my implicit point was that racism and other hateful dogmas that presuppose inherent superiority of one set of human above another, are propagated through processes that trade upon vestigial suspicion of the unfamiliar which I think is evolutionary in origin.
Well done Phanero, you just nicked the Sheffield Forum "most eminently sagacious contention advanced with the assistance of exceptionally erudite vocabulary" award off timo :)

I voted "aren't we all?" although I'm not sure that accurately represents what I think (but congratulations, Spyro, on a poll with a well thought-out set of options: so rare to see on here). I think that, on seeing somebody's race, it's very hard not to consciously or unconsciously take that on board and change your behaviour somehow, whether in a positive or negative way. I'm dead against all forms of irrational discrimination, and certainly wouldn't like to think of myself as a racist in the way that most people define racism, but I do think that race influences everyone's behaviour to some extent.

PS. Spyro - what's wrong with cockneys?

Originally posted by robbie
I (and I thing we all have) basic prejudices.

However, I treat all people equally.

I couldn't give a stuff ehat backround a person is from.

its how they are as a person

I've had mates for years who I haven't even realised that they aren't whit.

never crosses my mind.

a friend is a friend

I find it a bonkers assertion that you could be friends with someone for years and not realise they aren't white!!!

How can that be?
:confused:

A friend is of course a friend (inarguably!) but part of what makes them that person is their family background and culture. Surely?

Originally posted by spyro2000
Wow, I didnt expect a debate on this subject, but there you go. Some very honest opinions out there.

Ive come across lots of racism over the years from all colours, even my own, which is weird.

I wouldnt say everyone is racist as some peple think, but I do feel that everyone is slightly prejudiced towards their own so to speak.

For instance --> 2 people are about to fall off a cliff. You can only save 1. Both are equally far away from you, both are same sex and same weight, and both have an equal chance of survival if you try to save them. Only difference is one is not the same race as you. Who do you save?

The one to my right hand side, as that is my strongest arm.

Originally posted by SHsheff
I find it a bonkers assertion that you could be friends with someone for years and not realise they aren't white!!!

How can that be?
:confused:

A friend is of course a friend (inarguably!) but part of what makes them that person is their family background and culture. Surely?

obviously I knew they weren't white but it never crossed my mind. I only really noticed when someone mentioned about him being ofmixed race.

a friend is a friend. Unless some cultural/religious issue comes up in a conversation I see people for what they do.

Originally posted by tulip
Although I agree with most of what you say, I cannot agree that skin colour is not noticeable. I notice the skin colour of my friends just as they notice mine. It's like not noticing someones hair colour. There isn't anything wrong with noticing it. I think some people who had been on a tropical holiday and came back with a deep tan would be very upset if you said "you look as white as ever to me"!. I should imagine someone who had different colour skin would feel offended if you said that you saw them as white, like it was a privilede to be white. I can tell you have good intentions and mean well:)

I mean I don't think of them being any different from myself. I don't see them as being white. But I don't consider them in terms of being black or Asian.

If I were to apply rigorous critical thinking to this question, I believe it likely that I would conclude that I am comfortable in the company of differing races providing that they are of my culture. If I am truthful, I must admit that I feel awkward among differing cultures, rather than differing races. Now that neither shocks me, however, nor does it worry me to any great extent. That's because I believe that wariness of those whose way of life is unlike our own is a normal part of human nature. A throwback, perhaps from our prehistory or those darker ages when danger came in the shape of peoples from over hills and across seas.

Neither do I believe I'm alone in this. Indeed, my experience of living, working, and travelling between Sheffield communities, and my media-based observations of communities in other parts of Britain, lead me to conclude that most peoples across Britain, and probably the world, prefer to exist alongside those they feel most comfortable and safe with. This natural preference, I believe, means that multicultural societies inevitably become fragmented and eventually fractured societies.

Locally, the evidence to support this premise can be seen across Sheffield. The communities of Darnall, Tinsley, Fir Vale/Page Hall, Abbeydale/Nether Edge are largely Asian. Woodside has a steadily growing Somali population, as has Broomhall. London Road has a thriving Oriental community. Also, a dominant culture tends towards transforming its area into a version of the land that the culture originated from. And so, churches become mosques, synagogues, kurdwaras, temples, and local shops resemble bazarres. Eventually, those who are uncomfortable with the dominant culture move away to be with those of their own culture. And so the dominant culture becomes more dominant.

Of course, there are areas that some call melting pots. The idealists often point at these as examples of different cultures coming together in harmony. Pitsmoor, for instance. West Indians were once almost exclusive to Burngreave but the area is now populated by more recent arrivals: Asians, Somalilanders, Yeminis, Kurds, and other peoples of Arab and African descent. However, to idyllise Pitsmoor as a melting pot is to live in "Richard Curtis land". The demographic reality is that these differing cultures have formed smaller communities within the larger Pitsmoor community, and that consequently Pitsmoor society is turning more fragmented.

Pitsmoor is not unique in multiculturalism fragmenting its society. Indeed, it seems that fragmented societies and the eventual culture clashes that come with them are an inevitable consequence of multiculturalism. The danger lies in how multicultural societies are allowed to evolve by well intentioned but misguided governments who allow political correctness to stifle commonsense approaches to issues such as human rights and law and order.

In the case of Britain, in the short term, we will become like America: a land of many fragmented communities existing alongside each other but no two truly understanding or entirely comfortable with the other. And as we do not have the landmass of America, this close-proximity to each other's cultures will inevitably lead to conflict. Eventually enclaves will form and regions will declare themselves self-governing. Britain will become like the former Yugoslavia, a land of city-states separated by racial, religious and cultural differences. If trade and tolerance exists between these states then all will thrive. If not, then civil war will surely ensue.

In conclusion then, I believe that it is culture that separates us from one another rather than race. Unfortunately, culture is not only skin deep, it is genetic, it has evolved. Thus it is pointless striving for a multicultural society. The human species will be long gone before it evolves a common culture.

Originally posted by robbie
I mean I don't think of them being any different from myself. I don't see them as being white. But I don't consider them in terms of being black or Asian. Yes, I realize what you mean but differences are a good thing. How boring life would be if we all looked, acted, and spoke the same way! All my friends are different from me and each other and thats the way I like it!:D

Originally posted by spartacus
Unfortunately, culture is not only skin deep, it is genetic, it has evolved.
Hmm, yes. Have they managed to isolate the gene for wearing cloth caps yet? Or the gene for preferring tea over coffee? Or, indeed, the McDonald's gene?

Richard Curtis land? Alf Garnett land more bleedin' like.

:loopy:

Originally posted by spartacus


In conclusion then, I believe that it is culture that separates us from one another rather than race. Unfortunately, culture is not only skin deep, it is genetic, it has evolved..

Liked a lot of what you put, spartacus, 'specially in the first half. After that................. and I really can't go with the 'culture is genetic' bit I'm afraid. Have to agree with Dan on that one.

Surely the one thing about culture is that it is NOT genetic? No matter what a person's race or genetic origins, 'culture' is purely down to the immediate environment in which he's brought up and lives. So I don't even think it's skin deep - not unless you're suggesting that it penetrates by osmosis as a person is immersed in a particular culture.

But I do agree that culture has evolved, and continues to do so, by its very nature.

Originally posted by DanSumption
Hmm, yes. Have they managed to isolate the gene for wearing cloth caps yet? Or the gene for preferring tea over coffee? Or, indeed, the McDonald's gene?

Richard Curtis land? Alf Garnett land more bleedin' like.

:loopy: If a baby was born to a Jewish family and then adopted by a Catholic family and brought up as thus the child might rebel against the religious up bringing but it wouldn't be because he/she had a genetic disposition to follow his/her birth parents religion & culture.

Originally posted by tulip
If a baby was born to a Jewish family and then adopted by a Catholic family and brought up as thus the child might rebel against the religious up bringing but it wouldn't be because he/she had a genetic disposition to follow his/her birth parents religion & culture.

I think that was Dans point, he was disagreeing with sparticus who seems to think that culture is something inherent in us rather than something that we learn.

No, I wouldn't say I was a racist.

I'm white (just to clarify - as racist can be from any race to any race) and yes, I have been walking down the street a little late at night as it's turning dark, walked past a group of asian lads on a street corner and crossed over!

HOWEVER! I have also walked past numerous groups of white lads on street corners and crossed over.

So, I know it doesn't go on there skin colour. More on their attitude, stance and status.

If you get what I'm trying to say (it is late and I should be asleep - so may have to edit this in the morning if it makes no sense!)

Lottie

There have been some good points made opposing my assertion that a person's particular culture is inherent. I made the assertion without testing it logically and it might well be wrong. I will get back on that one with evidence for or against it, but probably in a separate thread. The rest, I stand by.

Originally posted by Lotti
yes, I have been walking down the street a little late at night as it's turning dark, walked past a group of asian lads on a street corner and crossed over!

HOWEVER! I have also walked past numerous groups of white lads on street corners and crossed over.
Yes, but did you save any of them from falling off a cliff? :)

Originally posted by Cyclone
I think that was Dans point, he was disagreeing with sparticus who seems to think that culture is something inherent in us rather than something that we learn. Yes, I realise that! I was backing Dan up. rather than putting the quote at the bottom of sparticus' post in case he got wound up with me (It's happened too many times!) It turns out that sparticus is very reasonable but I didn't know that at the time so I'm hiding behind Dan like a big girly:thumbsup:

Due to the bombings in London , recently , and the reactions to them , a lot of S.F posters have said that a many British people are racists.
A couple of years ago a government report accused the Metropolitan police [and perhaps others ? ] of being , "institutionally racist ".
The C.R.E. keep saying that this country is riddled with racism and that , "we must all do something about it " , to paraphrase them.
Now , a very strange thought occurs to me.
For at least 100 years now , Chinese people in ever-increasing numbers have been coming and living in Britain. At the moment , I think the figure is about 350,000 , a sizeable group. Yet , over the years , I have never heard an outcry of any force against the Chinese.
These people are easily identifiable as being of another race , their language is completely different from ours and their cultural background is different too.
Doesn't it strike anyone as odd that the attitude of the British people has been vastly different towards the Chinese , as compared to other groups ?
Is it because the Chinese come here , work hard , retain their dignity , are self-effacing and seem to appreciate the fact that they are living here ?
They never seem to play loud music or annoy their neighbours , they don't seem to get involved in street crime or muggings and always seem polite and quite friendly , wherever they are ?
Could the positive attitude , generally , towards the Chinese and attitudes towards other groups be nothing to do with racialism at all and all to do with how people behave ?
It would be very interesting to know what people think about this.

http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?threadid=45529&highlight=are+you+racist

MOD: Threads merged - thanks for the link :)

Originally posted by Siân
MOD: Threads merged - thanks for the link :)

No prob here's another http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/3708313.stm

and another:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3690187.stm

Originally posted by Fareast
they don't seem to get involved in street crime

and another
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/norfolk/2967848.stm


So to answer your questions, Chinese people in the UK do suffer racist abuse and they also sometimes commit crime.

Maybe you should re write your post and base it on something other then stereotypes. For both Chinese immigrants and those that don't keep their dignity. (whoever they may be)

i voted, yes, aren't we all? as i thin sometimes someone in their life must have sed something racist...

Disco cat ,

Well , I didn't mean that Chinese people never , ever , suffer racial abuse or get involved in crime.
If you read the post properly , the key word is , 'force' , or whatever , meaning not on a big scale as other groups have.
I would imagine that most of the racial abuse against the Chinese is in late night take-aways and /or restaurants , by drunken louts , who can't remember what they were doing the next morning.
Do you seriously suggest that the criticism that is levelled at some racial groups is comparable to anti-Chinese sentiment. ? I never seem to see much reporting of Chinese street crime in any newspapers or on T.V or radio.Is there perhaps a secret pro-Chinese faction controlling the media ?
Just as a matter of interest , has anyone got the official figures for :-
1] Racialist attacks on Chinese
2 ] The number of Chinese convicted for street crime and/or violence
3] The number of Chinese people on ASBO's
4] The number of Chinese people in prison for all offences.
I would bet that in each and every case the figures from above would be lower than for almost every other group.
The question remains , is this the real story behind , "racialism " ?
Someone give us some figures please !

id i sed chinese and japanese people are the best type of people ive met, is that a racist thing to say?

Originally posted by Fareast
Someone give us some figures please !

Why when you've clearly made up your mind?

Originally posted by Disco_Cat
Why when you've clearly made up your mind?

Doesn't the same apply to you? FarEast has asked a serious question, which deserves a serious response rather than the evasions and banal PC mantras in which you seem to specialise.

No , Disco Cat , it seems like you're the one whose mind is made up.
I put my views in a question form , precisely because I don't have the official figures.
However , I do have a strong impression that the Chinese community in the U.K. have generally got along very well with practically everyone else.
Is this because of their life-style and attitude ? Well , I think so but I'm willing to change my opinion if the figures show otherwise.
As to the abuse in late night restaurants and such , I'm sure that if English- born people , going back X generations , opened late-nght cheap restaurants , they'd get plenty of abuse too. It wouldn't be racial abuse , just drunken stupidity and oafishness.

The impression I got from your original post was that you believe black people in a way bring racism upon themselves because amongst other things they fail to retain their dignity (still not sure what you mean by this)

Interestingly enough I had a very similar conversation on this subject today with a representative of Sheffield's Chinese community and he said that it was his belief that racial tensions had been lower against his community because he believed their was not the same degree of competition for jobs between the Chinese community and white society as their was with other ethnicities.

If this is the sort of point you are trying to make then that is one thing, but to suggest as I believe your original post did, that their is an inherent racial characteristic of an immigrant of Chinese origin that makes them less prone to crime, violence or degradation of dignity (again whatever that is) then someone from another 'race', is a misguided belief.

Timo will probably explode with rage when he reads this next point, but I would suggest that should statistics indeed support your theory regarding crime ASBO's etc as well they might, then that would be due to factors such as employment patterns or length of assimilation rather then socially constructed myths such as Race.
(Sorry Timo, but we are Nemesis after all)

Originally posted by Fareast

For at least 100 years now , Chinese people in ever-increasing numbers have been coming and living in Britain.

I think much of the tensions we have been experiencing over the last few years have been heightened by September 11th and the Iraq war, would be interesting to look into racial motivated attacks during the Opium wars.

I didn't suggest for one minute that Chinese people were racially , basically different from any other race. You seem to make these things up as you go along.
I said that there could well be a connection with how the Chinese conduct themselves in this country , generally and our attitude towards them , which is largely benevolent.Anyway the figures if we get them should throw some light on that.
This difference in life-style could easily stem from their historical background------close family ties , a tradition of hard work and discipline and nothong to do with their racial makeup.
You make it sound as if I didn't ought to mention positive aspects of Chinese behaviour , in case it reflects on other groups. Well , if it does so reflect -----hard lines ! People generally get the reputation they deserve.
I don't understand your burble about the Opium Wars. Obviously if there is any kind of war between two countries , there is the probability of increased racial attacks------but here we are discussing the long term , continuous attitudes of people in this country-------is it down to inherent racialism or is it down to objective anti-social behaviour. Most people hate , "Chav"-type behaviour-----is that down to racialism . too ?

Disco Cat,
Believe me, I will not be 'exploding with rage' at your suggestion. Why should I? You have never been discourteous towards me. You simply dissent from my view that there is evidence to suggest that there may be geographical variations in intelligence. You are entitled to do so, and I imagine that more people would agree with your suggestion that 'race' is a social construct than with my hereditarian views. It has never been part of my case to suggest that any ethnic group or 'race' is inferior to another. Nor would I generalise about people based upon 'average' scores in IQ tests.

We have shared this 'nemesis' in-joke for a while now. To be serious, it does not really apply. You have nothing to worry about in my case. I accept that your views are different to mine, and I respect your intellect. I am certainly not a 'racist' in the sense that I lump people together typologically in order to mistreat them. I respect the store of knowledge in all human cultures. I am just pessimistic about the future for multiculturalism, which perhaps reflects a deeper, typically conservative pessimism about human nature per se.

Best Regards.

I just picked up a copy of tonight's Star. The front page headline: "Timo and Disco Cat in 'not nemesis' love shocker"

Less of the 'love' bit, Sumption! LOL.

Its not just white people that a racist! :loopy:

Steve,
Indeed it is not 'just white people' who are capable of racism, ethnic enmity etc. There are hundreds of cases of seemingly irremediable grudges between ethnic/'racial' groups throughout the world, and the majority of cases do not involve whites. The far east has been mentioned [not the splendid, humorous poster who goes by that nomme de plume...], in particular China. There has long been tension in that vast country between the dominant Han ethnic group and others. In Japan, the treatment of the Ainu ethnic minority and the Korean immigrants by the 'divine Yamato race' that make up the bulk of the Japanese population has often been shameful. In both East Asian countries, stereotypes still abound about 'hairy barbarian' Westerners, and 'dog-faced', 'round- eyed', smelly, dirty Europeans. Someone once told me that the Japanese phrase 'Gajin', commonly thought to mean 'foreigner', can be more accurately translated as 'excrement'. I do so hope that he was wrong.

Whites have become convenient scapegoats, and if one were to believe some left/liberal accounts of history, they are solely responsible for slavery, genocide and colonialism. What perfectly ridiculous, sublimely fatuous rubbish that is! Without listing all the atrocities committed by non-white peoples [and we would be here until this time next year], any well-read and informed person will know about the wars, colonialist adventures and genocidal pogroms engaged in by Arab, African, Asian and East Asian peoples against each other. They will be aware of the Arab contribution to the enslavement of black Africans. They might also possess knowledge of the 'white slave' trade practiced by Barbary Coast pirates which lasted over 2 hundred years, resulting in the enslavement, torture and sexual abuse of over two million white men, women and children, many of them from the coastal villages of Cornwall, Devon and the Irish counties of Cork and Kerry.

We hear of how 'terrible' the British Empire was from some sources. Doubtless, in some respects, for many native peoples that is undeniably true. However, I reflect that when the Japanese Armies of WW2 marched through the streets of Singapore they were cheered as 'liberators' who had humbled 'tyrants'. Cheers turned swiftly to bitter tears, as the Japanese proved to be infinitely harsher masters. The vehemently 'racist' Japanese Army [they too believed in the concept of 'master races'] proved themselves capable of brutality on such a staggering scale as to make the senses reel. I have yet to encounter any example of a European army [except the SS Divisions in WW2] coming anywhere near to equalling such, at least in part, racially-motivated savagery.

given that the majority of the population in our country is white, is it any wonder that we aren't overly concerned with the racism of the japanese or others?
Or do you think that their behaviour somehow excuses ours?

I don't think anyone has denied that there are racists individuals from every ethnic background (or if they have then they don't live in the real world).

I agree me ol mukka, white people do get it slapped on them most of the time...

Cyclone,
I am not getting locked into an argument with you here. How on earth can you ask such a ridiculous question as ' Do you think their behaviour excuses ours?' I have never advocated violence of any kind, or 'excused' British or European atrocities.

Mind you, I do advocate slapping the faces of a few celebrities [see ' Most slappable face in entertainment' thread, Entertainment section].

Bang right again , Timo !
It almost goes without saying that throughout history and in all quarters , there have been invasions , wars , massacres and racism ; there's been genocide , border disputes , terrible battles and enforced slavery.
The ironic thing is that in this country there are a sizeable group of people who , out of all this , paint the British , now and in the past , as the chief villains and worst perpetrators of all this carnage---------whereas in reality our conduct has almost always been more civilised than most countries. You quote the example of the Japanese and Singapore and there are countless others.
At the moment I'm in China and the Japanese atrocities in China are still a bone of contention between both countries. I honestly don't know anything about racialism in China but I must say you're probably right. It's such a vast place , there's room for all possibilities here.
I wonder why so many people condemn Britain though ? Is it a sort of political masochism , I wonder ? Is it down to our school History books ? Or is it a guilt complex of some kind ? It could be sheer short-sightedness , brought on my sheer ignorance of the facts too.

Fareast,
Living in China, I imagine you might have witnessed, or seen on tv, some anti-Japanese demonstrations based upon the latter country's seeming refusal to acknowledge wartime atrocities. In particular, the 'Rape of Nanking' still raises Chinese hackles to say the least.

I have taught Japanese students who know virtually nothing about the horrors wrought by the Japanese Co-Prosperity Sphere. They receive a sanitised version of history, in which the Kwai 'Railway of Death' is portrayed as a masterpiece of Japanese engineering. One thing I noticed was their fear of south Korean students. One female Japanese student told me that 'they stare, and hate us'. This might be because of the Korean 'comfort women' issue, or even the notoriously harsh way Korean immigrants are treated in Japan. Hatred is often linked to fear too. I do not believe in inherited racial guilt, and see it as 'racist' in itself as an idea. However, it will take a long, long time for the rest of Asia, and indeed for much of the Occident, to feel at ease with Japan.

Originally posted by timo
Cyclone,
I am not getting locked into an argument with you here. How on earth can you ask such a ridiculous question as ' Do you think their behaviour excuses ours?' I have never advocated violence of any kind, or 'excused' British or European atrocities.

Mind you, I do advocate slapping the faces of a few celebrities [see ' Most slappable face in entertainment' thread, Entertainment section].

that's okay, wasn't looking for an argument.
I'm just puzzled as to what the point is.
Is there really anyone who disagrees with you that there are people of all colours and creeds who are racist?

I believe, fareast, that since the british colonial empire disintegrated not that long ago, in real terms, much of the criticism voiced for it comes from a desire to show that life in the colonies wasn't all peaches and cricket, and that colonial masters could be far from the liberating, civilising influence on the savages that was claimed at the time.

Unfortunately I also agree that a new generation of young activists has grown up in this country with the idea that all the worlds problems are to do with empire and who fail to see the complexities of historical politics.

By 'empire', Kathy, I take it to mean that you refer not just to the legacy of colonialism, but the 'imperial' behaviour of global, transnational corporations [referred to as 'the new state', by Umberto Eco], and the so-called 'forces' of globalisation? You are correct , in my view, to view this new generation of activists as misguided. They seize upon reductionist, unitary explanations because, one suspects, they like 'easy' answers to complex problems.