What do you consider to be the very best English music of the last Century? Obviously, this will be down to subjective opinion, and the examples may be from any category of music .

Personally, I think the award should go to the composer, Ralph Vaughan-Williams for his 'Pastoral Symphony'. As an ambulance man in the Great War, he encountered appalling suffering and destruction. His very English reaction [Welsh surname notwithstanding] was to compose this slow, reflective Symphony which invokes the countryside for which, as the philosopher Roger Scruton has suggested, 'the English imagined themselves to be fighting, and which they were soon, of their own initiative, to destroy'.

Close runner-up, for myself at least, would be the same composer's 'On Wenlock Edge', an unashamedly romantic, impressionistic setting of poems from A.E.Houseman's 'A Shropshire Lad'. One can hear the 'French' influence of Ravel clearly here in the Impressionist harmonies. There are some profoundly moving and evocative passages in this masterpiece of English music.

I would go as far as to say that the above compositions equal almost anything in the national culture of England.

I don't think I know any English composers.

It's the Beatles, I thought everyone knew that ;)

Nick, it doesn't have to be Classical music, just whatever you think is the best 'English' music , i.e, by an English artist , composer, artists etc. The music can be from any category you wish.

I'd say either Beatles or Oasis. . . . . & Dire Straits :thumbsup:

Originally posted by timo
Nick, it doesn't have to be Classical music, just whatever you think is the best 'English' music , i.e, by an English artist , composer, artists etc. The music can be from any category you wish.

Oh right, in that case I realy like Kate Bush, I guess she counts as "pop music" but I think she puts a lot more time, effort and meaning into her work than other artists. I think "The ninth wave" is great piece of music.

Originally posted by timo
What do you consider to be the very best English music of the last Century? Obviously, this will be down to subjective opinion, and the examples may be from any category of music .

Personally, I think the award should go to the composer, Ralph Vaughan-Williams for his 'Pastoral Symphony'. As an ambulance man in the Great War, he encountered appalling suffering and destruction. His very English reaction [Welsh surname notwithstanding] was to compose this slow, reflective Symphony which invokes the countryside for which, as the philosopher Roger Scruton has suggested, 'the English imagined themselves to be fighting, and which they were soon, of their own initiative, to destroy'.

Close runner-up, for myself at least, would be the same composer's 'On Wenlock Edge', an unashamedly romantic, impressionistic setting of poems from A.E.Houseman's 'A Shropshire Lad'. One can hear the 'French' influence of Ravel clearly here in the Impressionist harmonies. There are some profoundly moving and evocative passages in this masterpiece of English music.

I would go as far as to say that the above compositions equal almost anything in the national culture of England.

Excellent choices there Timo. A common description of Vaughan Williams as the most English of composers is well justified, although in my opinion it could also be said of Edward Elgar. If the soul of a nation can be expressed in music, then Vaughan Williams achieved it. In addition to On Wenlock edge, Linden Lee also . deserves a mention, as does his overture The Wasps and his beautiful 5th Symphony (and for that matter many of his other works).


Elgar is of course also a leading contender - not of course just for the Enigma Variations, but also because of his Cello concerto and Violin concerto and indeed for his two symphonies.

Other possible contenders might be Delius, Britten, Bax, Bantock, Warlock, Tippett or Walton. In my opinion none of these come close to Vaughan Williams or Elgar in terms of popular appeal (although others might disagree).

Pink Floyd around the Dark Side of the Moon/Wish you were Here time.

I wasn't born when they recorded/released these albums and didn't hear them until the 90s. I have since listened to both albums far more than any other pieces of music.

The earlier stuff is pretty fantastic but nothing compares to the early 70s stuff they knocked out (The Wall sucks!)

The guitar intro on Shine on you Crazy Diamond makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up everytime I play it.

Lord C,
Some excellent ideas from your good self too, my dear Doppelganger! All the other composers you mention are excellent [especially Elgar, Britten and Delius in my view]. Personally, I would place Elgar's First Symphony at the head of the list you kindly supply. I adore the 'great beautiful tune' which opens the Symphony, and see it almost as the last 'Victorian' statement in English high art music. The Adagio has to be one of the finest ever written. In truth, I can think of only one Adagio that is marginally finer [in my view, of course], and that is Bruckner's Adagio from his 8th Symphony. Elgar's First never fails to cause me great pleasure.

Punk,
I remember buying Floyd's 'Wish you were here' in 75 at the age of 14. I still play it now, occasionally. The same goes for 'Dark Side', 'Meddle', 'Ummagumma', 'Atom Heart Mother' and the early album and singles of Syd Barrett era . They were the first non-pop band I became interested in, and their use of tapes led me to investigate more eclectic music, such as that by composers such as Stockhausen. I love Floyd's material up to 'The Wall'. Like you, I dislike the album immensely. It is basically Roger Waters' great ego-trip, a huge, overblown affair. Waters seemed to get more and more embittered, miserable and self-pitying during and after the 'Wall'. I dislike the 'Final Cut' too, which again is all about Waters' pessimistic take on human affairs, and drips with misery and angst. Maybe 'Dark Side' , 'Wish you were here' and 'Animals' contain bleak themes, but they are well-crafted, interesting and universal in appeal. The late-Waters period Floyd material is practically misanthropic.

The post-Waters material has ben mixed in terms of quality too. For example, there are a few decent tracks on 'Division Bell', but there is a tendency there to slip into a kind of 'Stadium Rock' feel. Yes, Punk, you are probably right that Floyd were at their peak around 'Dark Side'/'Wish'. Actually, Waters is on record as having expressed a sense of futility after the phenomenal success of 'Dark Side' [typical of the man, I would have been in my cups!]. He considered the band to have 'peaked', and that 'there was nothing much left to do'.

If I may add my thoughts to this debate. I too would place the Elgar First symphony in a high place. (There's a performance coming of it next June from the SPO) I'd put it in for personal reasons.

There are some fine composers from this period and I think we might add Tippett to the list for his Child of Our Time.

There are some obscure composers who never seem to hit the headlines. Frederick Cliffe was a contemporary of Elgar, but is largely forgotten nowadays, although his First symphony appeared last year (Outside the time line, though) .

John Foulds was a discovery when I heard his works on the CBSO CD - curious that it took the CBSO to record the works of this ex-Halle man!

I can never get into Tippett. I am not quite sure why. Only last night a friend was trying to convince me to give him another try, along with the music of Edmund Rubbra, whose works don't seem to be much played these days.

No one has so far mentioned Rutter or Tavener or (thank goodness) Birtwhistle. I have never heard of Foulds.

No one has mentioned Sir Arthur Bliss. I once saw Bliss at a concert in Sheffield City Hall ( just making an appearance, he seemed too frail to do much else).
I think there is a case to be made for Arnold Bax - Tintagel in particular, I prefer the music to the location - too willing to cash in on its supposed Arthurian connection (King Arthur's Tea Room, Merlin's filling station etc).

I think Bax's music is in general too shapeless and formless to have wide appeal. With the works of some composers, you wish they would end as soon as possible. With Bax one keeps wondering when the work is actually going to start, although I would agree his tone poem Tintagel is appealing.

I know the movie director Ken Russell is very keen on Bax and tried to start a Bax revival some years ago (with a TV biography), although seemingly without success.

It is amusing that when Bax was Master of the King's Musick, he was living over a pub and was quite an irreverent character, with a colourful love life.

Originally posted by Lestat
Oasis
Good lad! :thumbsup:

It has to be something by the Cardiacs: they take that English pastoral sound, a touch of uplifting hymn-type singalong, some brass-band sensibilities, and turn it all into a whirling malestrom of nonsense with some prog, punk and ska thrown into the mix. Every time I hear them I am struck by just how "English" they sound. If I had to pick one track it would probably be "Manhoo", which I think (purely conjecture) was their own response to the whole Oasis/Blur "we're more influenced by the Beatles than you" spat: Manhoo has Strawberry Fields' steam-organ offbeats, I Am The Walrus's chugga chugga-I'm-sure-there's-somebody-in-the -background-singing-Oompah-Oompah-Stick-it-up-your-Jumper ending. All backed up by two basslines - rumbly rolling perpetual-motion rickenbacker, like a rolling grindstone and farty, parpy tuba, oompah-oompahing far too happily. And the vocals... words cannot.... layer upon layer, upon layer upon layer, million-part vocal harmonies with supra-sopranino-thingy perfect pinky-perky squeaks backing everything up with urgency. A middle eight of operatic howling, followed by a nod-to-prog bridge, accoustic guitar and synths swirling down the plughole, as if Yes got too close to the river. And such gorgeous resolution, and chugga-chugga-downshifting-la-las. Hmmm.... sorry, this is getting more and more pointless. You'll just have to listen to it yourself and make up your own superlatives.

As for classical music, I've never managed to get very worked up about English composers (although I admit to not having listened to much). The Elgar I've heard has been pretty decent, the Delius pretty limp. I do like Harrison Birtwhistle though, but don't really associate him with Englishness.

Dan, I don't associate Birtwhistle with music - although each to their own, as they say.

I would have to say its a choice between Bad Company, Kosheen or Mampi Swift.

Dan,
The criteria here is 'English music', i.e, the origin of the music/composer, not whether you associate the music with a sense of 'Englishness'. I know what you mean re Birtwhistle; his music is hardly likely to make one think of pastoral landscapes, strawberries swimming in the cream, and other cliched images of 'Englishness'. Personally, though I share your taste for 'experimental' musics, I am not keen on what I have heard of Birtwhistle.

Lord C and Hopman [sounds like a pair of Rappers], you refer to some lovely, neglected composers there. Have either of you heard anything by Frederick Stocken? He is currently being lauded as the successor to Vaughan-Williams, and the composer most likely to lead a new, tonal musical revival by certain writers of a conservative persuasion. Stocken's 'Lament for Bosnia' and Symphonic work is seen by some as an antidote to the rather grim, contemporary nihilism of some modern composers. Personally, I have yet to hear a single note. It would be nice to hear a modern composer who didn't ape Glass, Reich and Nyman for a change [much as I like minimalism].

Originally posted by timo
Dan,
The criteria here is 'English music', i.e, the origin of the music/composer, not whether you associate the music with a sense of 'Englishness'.
Cardiacs still make it for me, on both criteria. BTW the version of Manhoo referred to is the 5-minute album one, not the shorter single which seems to lack operatic screaming & prog-noodle middle-eight. Buy the album (http://www.cardiacs.com/singto.html)!

its the Beatles! one of the greatest bands of all time! they invented a new concept with music and did more inventive and creative music then any other band! no one will ever come close to them! they did things to music that no one would have ever thought of! no contest!

I simply cannot accept some of the choices that you bandy so freely on here. Firstly Vaughan –Williams, while I agree that he was an English composer, his work on the ‘Carry On’ films all but precludes him from serious consideration, that, and his ‘spastic colon.’ And when he conducted one of his symphonies with his nose in the air one could hardly take him seriously.

Britten’s grandiose style was also a little ruined by daughter fern’s obese jabbering on the ‘This morning’ Programme. ‘Da Da Dee Da OO now we can go over to Ralf who is knocking up a lamb dish with some low fat yogurt!’ She’s ruined the ‘enigma’ and I would like some ‘variation’ on the ‘This Morning’ format!!!

This brings me to the very English of English composers, Skegness’ own Sir Larry Pert. Pert’s symphonies are little known. He was once described as a ‘total and utter ****!’ by Britten when he first performed his Symphony for Triangle at the Rhyl Sun Centre.

Often, Pert would take his intonation from provincial sounds; the sound of a tattooed oaf vomiting 36 rum and blacks on to a pub car park and a small child being dragged out to sea on an inflatable duck lilo, are all sounds that critics have picked up in his work. In particular the haunting piece deceptively entitled ‘My eyebrow piercing fell in my chip tray’ or Symphony number 12 for G-String (Karen’s lament).

Sadly, just as pert’s popularity was on the rise he was killed. Critics argued that it was ironic that he was cut down in his prime by the very Englishness he came to champion. He was mowed down by a Burberry clad drink driver while going to place a bet at Ladbrokes. His horse won. He was put on a life support machine. Ladbrokes gave odds of 5/1 on his impending death. They made their money back

The guest list at his funeral at ‘Ingoldmell’s parish church’ was testament to his importance. His coffin was floated round the ‘Log flume’ at ‘fantasy Island’ as a sign of respect. 12 times! (The man operating it had gone for a fag and nobody knew how to stop it)

It was at his funeral that they played his last great work, the entrancing, ‘My pit-bill has eaten my underwear’ or Symphony number 13, with the famous ‘Down Boy’ Overture. Generally regarded as a fitting tribute to the man and his work the piece was played entirely by a 64 piece ensemble, all on dog whistles. The whole work was completely out of the range of the human sound spectrum. Ahead of its time, it was played at his funeral as his guests sat in total silence for the duration of the five hour programme.

Glass left in disgust, saying he felt half empty. Stocken lent over to Aitken and Waterman and said ‘this gives me an idea!’ Elgar whispered to Trippet ‘who’s that?..
‘ Bantock,’ Trippet replied.
‘I only asked!’ was Elgar's surly response.

However, most were agreed that Pert’s contribution to the Englishness of his musical generation had import. He had opened our eyes, made us laugh, cry and on occasion, throw a wardrobe out of a window. My nomination then – Sir Larry Pert.

Originally posted by miniminch
I simply cannot accept some of the choices that you bandy so freely on here. Firstly Vaughan –Williams, while I agree that he was an English composer, his work on the ‘Carry On’ films all but precludes him from serious consideration, that, and his ‘spastic colon.’ And when he conducted one of his symphonies with his nose in the air one could hardly take him seriously.

Britten’s grandiose style was also a little ruined by daughter fern’s obese jabbering on the ‘This morning’ Programme. ‘Da Da Dee Da OO now we can go over to Ralf who is knocking up a lamb dish with some low fat yogurt!’ She’s ruined the ‘enigma’ and I would like some ‘variation’ on the ‘This Morning’ format!!!

This brings me to the very English of English composers, Skegness’ own Sir Larry Pert. Pert’s symphonies are little known. He was once described as a ‘total and utter ****!’ by Britten when he first performed his Symphony for Triangle at the Rhyl Sun Centre.

Often, Pert would take his intonation from provincial sounds; the sound of a tattooed oaf vomiting 36 rum and blacks on to a pub car park and a small child being dragged out to sea on an inflatable duck lilo, are all sounds that critics have picked up in his work. In particular the haunting piece deceptively entitled ‘My eyebrow piercing fell in my chip tray’ or Symphony number 12 for G-String (Karen’s lament).

Sadly, just as pert’s popularity was on the rise he was killed Critics argued that it was ironic that he was cut down in his prime by the very Englishness he came to champion. He was mowed down by a Burberry clad drink driver while going to place a bet at Ladbrokes. His horse won. He was put on a life support machine. Ladbrokes gave odds of 5/1 on his impending death. They made their money back

The guest list at his funeral at ‘Ingoldmell’s parish church’ was testament to his importance. His coffin was carried round the ‘Log flume’ at ‘fantasy Island’ as a sign of respect. 12 times! (The man operating it had gone for a fag and nobody knew how to stop it)

It was at his funeral that they played his last great work, the entrancing, ‘My pit-bill has eaten my underwear’ or Symphony number 13, with the famous ‘Down Boy’ Overture. Generally regarded as a fitting tribute to the man and his work the piece was played entirely by a 64 piece ensemble, all on dog whistles. The whole work was completely out of the range of the human sound spectrum. Ahead of its time, it was played as his funeral as his guest sat in total silence for the duration of the five hour programme.

Glass left in disgust, saying he felt half empty. Stocken lent over to Aitken and Waterman and said ‘this gives me an idea!’ Elgar whispered to Trippet ‘who’s that?..
‘ Bantock,’ Trippet replied.
‘I only asked!’ was Elgar's surly response.

However, most were agreed that Pert’s contribution to the Englishness of his musical generation had import. He had opened our eyes, made us laugh, cry and on occasion throw a wardrobe out of a window. My nomination then – Sir Larry Pert.
:clap: :clap: :clap:

A truly patriotic response.

Yes, Miniminch presents an elegant, erudite and rigorous case in favour of Pert as English composer par excellence there. I wonder how Miniminch's own First Symphony is developing. It is whispered that he is proceeding cautiously with his first orchestral opus, as did Brahms.This is just as well, since there will be the inevitable comparisons with Pert, Beethoven etc.

Mini has astonished us all with the news that Vaughan- Williams starred in 'Carry On' films, Benjamin Britten's rotund and football-like daughter presents 'This Morning' on television, and Frederick Stocken co-wrote some of the best selling popular music of the eighties with Aitken and Waterman. I am deeply impressed. However, I wonder if Mini has ever heard of Delius Smith, the Norwich City-obsessed, transsexual television cook/composer?

The Wizzards of Twiddly made the finest english music last century.

A great band that never made it - reeked of englishness.

Originally posted by timo
Dan,
The criteria here is 'English music', i.e, the origin of the music/composer, not whether you associate the music with a sense of 'Englishness'. I know what you mean re Birtwhistle; his music is hardly likely to make one think of pastoral landscapes, strawberries swimming in the cream, and other cliched images of 'Englishness'. Personally, though I share your taste for 'experimental' musics, I am not keen on what I have heard of Birtwhistle.

Lord C and Hopman [sounds like a pair of Rappers], you refer to some lovely, neglected composers there. Have either of you heard anything by Frederick Stocken? He is currently being lauded as the successor to Vaughan-Williams, and the composer most likely to lead a new, tonal musical revival by certain writers of a conservative persuasion. Stocken's 'Lament for Bosnia' and Symphonic work is seen by some as an antidote to the rather grim, contemporary nihilism of some modern composers. Personally, I have yet to hear a single note. It would be nice to hear a modern composer who didn't ape Glass, Reich and Nyman for a change [much as I like minimalism].

Hi Timo,

Perhaps it ought to be LC and Hip-Hopman. No, I've never heard of Stocken. I think its good though that contemporary composers have emancipated themselves from the dead weight of twelve note serialiism and are attempting to compose music that people will pay to listen to. This is true in the US as well as in the UK. I remember when i was living in the US I came across the music of John Adams and went to a performance he gave of his music in Chicago. He gave a talk beforehand and said that when he was a music student in the 1960s, he was listening to Cream and other great rock bands and at the same time was being introduced to serialism by his music teachers. He said he wanted to compose music which would be listened to and he has undoubtedly succeeded. When he gave the performance, he was leaping up and down like an air guitarist and i have a sneaking suspiciion he would really have liked to have been a rock musician. Shaker Dance is probably his most famous work, but he has done a lot of other good stuff as well.

I am a great admirer of the Fast Food Rockers, but I'm not sure if they are English? Black Lace, Kagagoogoo and Dollar are also excellent English gems of the popular music scene. I feel it wouldn't be fair to ignore the contributions by the likes of Various Artists, Anon and St.Winifred's School Choir.

Ask me again in the morning. If you want to. You may not.

Finest English music of the C20th?

The Beatles: Sgnt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band L.P.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
The Wizzards of Twiddly made the finest english music last century.

A great band that never made it - reeked of englishness.
Ha! Yes! I have their LP "Independent Legs". Not quite the best, in my opinion, but a lot of fun especially live.

Re: Stocken - perhaps some confusion with Stock, Hausen & Walkman. Another wonderful English act. I once built an entire website themed around 2-second loops from their album "Organ Transplants".

Ant,
You offer some inspired choices there . The fearsome threnodies and vast themes of Kagagoogoo, the electric lieder of Dollar and the sublime, heavenly music of St Winifred's Choir; as delicate as porcelain, and as elegant in form as a Greek vase. Truly, this is English music at its finest.

The problem is, there is so much good English music of the last Century and it is hard to make definate choices. Charlie Drake's moving portrayal of the difficult passage presented by English immigration to the Australaise, 'My Boomerang won't come back', sung in his pleasing castrato, is surely worthy of consideration. As are the impressionistic, haunting, Satie-esque piano pieces of Reg Varney. Clive Dunn's dignified invocation of old age and the fragility of human memory/happiness in the timeless, 'Grandad' is of great musical significance. As is the exotic, South American-flavoured 'Zhanadu', by the celebrated Quintet, Dave Dee,Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Titch.

What a wonderful treasuretrove of delights English music is!

Originally posted by DanSumption
Ha! Yes! I have their LP "Independent Legs". Not quite the best, in my opinion, but a lot of fun especially live.

Yes, live. Even their best LP, "Man Made Self", isn't a patch on their live performances.

I would also nominate the whimsies of Ivor Cutler, but something tells me he's not actually English, as such.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Yes, live. Even their best LP, "Man Made Self", isn't a patch on their live performances.

I would also nominate the whimsies of Ivor Cutler, but something tells me he's not actually English, as such.

He's not actually English, in the sense that he's Scottish

Phan,
Sadly, Cutler is Scots rather than English. What a pity it is that we Sassanachs cannot claim him as one of ours. He is absolutely hilarious at his best, i.e, 'Life in a Scotch Sitting Room'.

I suppose I'd have to say performers playing traditional and contemporary English music or creating new folk music.
Sooooo... The Carthy clan: Martin Carthy, Norma Waterson, Eliza Carthy who breathe new life into traditional English folk tunes and create their own twists on folk. Eliza Carthy's Anglicana is a good example.

Kate Rusby who again takes traditional tunes and recreates them as well as writing her own stuff in the same vein.

English folk-rock revival groups like Fairport Convention or Steeleye Span who initially took inspiration from the folk / blues/ hippy era music from the states but anglicised it.

I saw Eliza Carthy on Saturday at the Royal Festival Hall (http://www.hayward.org.uk/main/events/94431.html), she was absolutely stunning (Beth Orton, who was on the same bill, was even more so - what a voice! Almost as good were Sinead O'Connor, Patti Smith and Marianne Faithful. But Yoko Ono... well, she was just Yoko Ono).

I've been a Beatles fan since 1983, yet I'd struggle to class their music as 'the finest ENGLISH music of the 20th century'. The reason being that they were so heavily influenced by the sounds eminating from America, the (black) rhythm and blues of singer/songwriters like Chuck Berry, Fats Domino, Little Richard and (to a lesser extent) Carl Perkins.

The Beatles, or rather, Lennon and McCartney honed their songwriting by listening to the songs of these guys and others like Lieber/Stoller, Marlow/Scott, Smoky Robisnon and even Goffin/King. However, the Beatles' sound, which if anything was rather simple, mono, 2 track and played through poor equipment and amps contributed to what you could deem their 'englishness'.

American production and recording techniques were light years ahead of ours, recording in stereo, 8 and possibly sixteen track, not to mention straight into the recording deck (direct inject, negating the need to play through noisy valve amps). So the Beatles' primitive records sound english when compared to the advanced techniques of our American cousins.

By the time the Beatles were recording onto 8 track - and even then, via connecting two 4 track recorders together - they were at the very height of their careers. Pepper's is often lauded as the finest record ever made, but is it english (except for Lennon's witty observations in Good Morning Good Morning 'time for tea and Meet The Wife' or Macca's Vauderville pi55-take in When I'm 64)?

The jury's out for me, and certainly, when the Americans took them to heart in February 1964 the press's first question was "Why do you sing in American?" ('Can you sing for us now?' the press continued. 'No, we need money first' was Lennon's riposte.)

Cracking music and my all time favourite group. But for english, take a look at Morrissey's lyrics and the portraits he creates in some of the Smiths' mighty-fine music. ('And in the darkened underpass I thought 'oh God my chance has come at last', but then a strange fear gripped me and I just couldn't ask'.)

Finally, Ralph Vaughan Williams (pronounced Rayf incidentally) and something like The Lark Ascending or the music based on a theme by Thomas Tallis makes me think of rolling, english landscapes.

A fine subject Timo, yet strangely, I feel grossly unqualified to comment here. Still, I've tried....,

Ousetunes,
You are a damned good poster, and more than welcome on any thread of mine. Do not put yourself down, son. You are more than 'qualified' to offer your opinion any time on this forum.

I'm with you Ousetunes,

The Smiths have got to be my favourite English band, and for goodness sake didn't Morrissey write a whole book about tea??

My favourite piece of English music is the recording of 'The January Man' on Bert Jansch's 'Moonshine' LP. OK, Bert hails from Scotland, but the song was written by Dave Goulder, who is from Leeds, I think. It is, essentially a poem set to music. The lyric runs through the calendar year, with each month personified in turn. A simple idea, but it's executed so movingly, and accompanied with some of Bert's most beautiful fingerstyle guitar work (and contributions from a fantastic harpist). Some people claim to be able to play this - I've had a go, and have a good ear for timing, but although initially it sounds pretty straightforward, on closer inspection it twists and turns like a mofo.

It's one of those recordings which instantly create a mood (I suppose it could be described as wistful and reflective). I love it, and intend - with a heavy heart - to have it played at my father's funeral, because it absolutely suits him down to the ground. He is 'down to earth', a child of nature, in tune with the seasons and lifes simple pleasures. He is as unaffected and innocent as a seventy-five year old could possibly be. Hopefully we won't be saying goodbye to him for a long time yet, but when he goes, I know that listening to this song will help in some small way. That's why I've chosen this piece. Soppy, I admit, but I'm sure I haven't heard even 1% of English music of the 20th Century, so what do I know?

Snooty,
Bert Jansch is brilliant, and without him there would be no Led Zeppelin, or at least Jimmy Page's guitar style would be less rich due to the former's huge influence on the latter.

As is the case with Ousetunes, don't put yourself down Snooty re how much you have heard. I am certainly no expert on music, and there are huge gaps in my basic knowledge. I am just glad that people contribute and cite music that means something to them. It would take a lifetime and a half to hear all the music I want to hear.

Just wanted to counter-balance some of the more self-deprecating posts on here by saying that I know everything that is worth knowing about music, and that my opinion is objectively 100% correct.
:heyhey:

Dan - Objectivity is subjective...

The biggest, and the best british, band/music of the 20th century for me would be
THE BEATLES::thumbsup:

"What is the finest English music of the 20th Century?"

Richard D James' back catalogue.

Originally posted by Agent Gypo
"What is the finest English music of the 20th Century?"

Richard D James' back catalogue. Elgar's version of 'window licker' is a bit funkier, i think.

Agent Gypo,
Apologies for my musical ignorance here, but who exactly is Richard D. James? Watch out, old Miniminch is likely to claim that he is either the brother of 'Carry On' star, Syd James or even the husband of female crime writer, P.D. James...

Richard D James is a producer who goes under various monickers such as The Diceman, Powerpill, AFX and Polygon Window, but is more commonly known as Aphex Twin. I suppose you could say he makes electronic music, or IDM (intelligent dance music). I just call it music.

The guy is a genius, eccentric and nobody has a clue what he will do next.

Geek alert :help:

Agent Gypo,
Ah, I see. I have heard The Aphex Twin, albeit briefly. There are some nice bleeps and blips there, I must say. Do you like the 'ambient', electronic music of Brian Eno? It is like a slow, flattened, vertical verson of The Aphex Twin. I'll definately investigate 'idm' further. It is an area which I must admit to knowing not enough about. There are strong links there to Eno, Kraftwerk [and other German bands], plus some composers like Cage and Stockhausen. I'll get my hood on, point me in the direction of the next 'rave up', sorry, 'rave'.

Timo,

I seem to remember the excellent critic and DJ Stuart Maconie saying something about a Vaughan Williams piece being his all time favourite piece of music. That, and your erudite description has moved me in my philistine way to want to check it out.

Agree with your comments about Roger Waters - undoubtedly dark and self-indulgent, but there were some good tunes on "The Wall"! Post-Waters Floyd is unlistenable to me - the kind of bland stadium rock that helped fuel the punk explosion.

You can pick up a few of his releases for around a fiver;

As Aphex Twin;
Selected Ambient Works 86-91 (self-explanatory)
The Richard D James Album (orchestral snare rushes)

As Polygon Window,
Surfing on Sine Waves (ambient acid house stuff)

There's loads of hard and awkward stuff too, but they're probably the best to break into him.



Not heard too much Eno...

Originally posted by Agent Gypo
The guy is a genius, eccentric and nobody has a clue what he will do next.
And a lovely bloke too, I met him once briefly. It was at a friend's flat (which was being occupied by Spiral Tribe at the time, way back in the days when they were any good), he came over for a cup of tea and a chat. I didn't realise he was Aphex Twin until he'd left, he was just "Richard", and one of the nicest people you could hope to meet.

Originally posted by timo
Agent Gypo,
Apologies for my musical ignorance here, but who exactly is Richard D. James? Watch out, old Miniminch is likely to claim that he is either the brother of 'Carry On' star, Syd James or even the husband of female crime writer, P.D. James... p.d. james was a woman!!!! You'll be telling me George Elliot was a woman as well, next, Timo!!

Originally posted by miniminch
p.d. james was a woman!!!! You'll be telling me George Elliot was a woman as well, next, Timo!!

As far as I know, all the George Elliots who have ever existed have indeed been men. One George Eliot however was a woman. Didn't she write a novel entitled Miniminch? Sorry, I've just remembered, it was MiddleMarch

Originally posted by LordChaverly
As far as I know, all the George Elliots who have ever existed have indeed been men. One George Eliot however was a woman. Didn't she write a novel entitled Miniminch? Sorry, I've just remembered, it was MiddleMarch

Well soak my pants in petrol and light my arse – if old Georgie Elliot wasn’t a top-drawer bit of totty. One question: Did his wife know?

I remember reading Middlemarch at university (well renting the video) I came slightly unstuck when a university professor asked, where is the middle of Middlemarch, to which I replied, you just fast forward it about one hour and you are about right. Well, I’m not a huge fan of ‘chick-lit’ or ‘Clit-lit’ if Germaine is reading!

Originally posted by timo
Snooty,
Bert Jansch is brilliant, and without him there would be no Led Zeppelin, or at least Jimmy Page's guitar style would be less rich due to the former's huge influence on the latter.


I wouldn't quite go that far timo. It's true that Page was a huge fan of Bert's and even lifted Jansch's arrangement of the traditional tune Black Waterside and recorded it on the first LZ album under the name Black Mountain Side.

But he was also lifting stuff from other acoustic players such as Davy Graham (see LZ's White Summer, a direct steal of Davy's arrangement of She Moved Through The Fair), Roy Harper etc.

And don't forget Page's acoustic playing was only a small (but significant) part of the LZ's catalogue, so I suspect the band would still have existed in pretty much the same form with or without Bert.

Originally posted by mojoworking
players such as Davy Graham
<doffs hat, kneels on the floor and kowtows>
An absolute genius, father of the modern folk-crossover scene, sadly under-rated and neglected. My second vote for finest English music of the 20th Century (although it was the touch of Moroccan that made his music really interesting).

Am I right in thinking Davy Graham more-or-less invented DADGAD tuning? There's another bloke who plays in DADGAD all the time, he's brilliant, oh tits, what's his name? He's american, though....it'll come to me. Having heard both Davy Graham's and Bert Jansch's versions of 'Anji/Angie' (there are pedants circling overhead), I have to say the latter is much better - lots more swing and bite. But Davy Graham wrote it, as far as I know. The great thing about DADGAD is you cannot avoid, unless you really go out of your way, that 'eastern' feel (it's the harmonic minor scale, you know).

Actually, I'll take a leaf out of Dan's book for a moment, if I may, and exchange self-deprecation for ironic megalomania. I have, ahem, composed a piece in DADGAD entitled 'Clipper', which evokes (oh no, I sound like John Shuttleworth) the motion of a sleek sailing ship in full sail. It's the finest english music of the 21st century....

I had to go and look at my CD shelves - what a disgrace, even messier than my car. John Fahey is the other DADGAD man - very unassuming, ragtimey things but they really grow on you. There's also a french chap called Pierre Bus-somethingorother, who seems to be a self styled 'Debussy of the guitar'. He's a bit too contemporary for me; I am not liking this jazzy crossover, slightly 'chillout' vibe (perhaps because I can't do it)......

Originally posted by LordSnooty
Having heard both Davy Graham's and Bert Jansch's versions of 'Anji/Angie' (there are pedants circling overhead), I have to say the latter is much better - lots more swing and bite.
Yes, you're right there. Jansch is a more polished and consistent player, Graham's (Davy or Davey (http://www.daveygraham.org/) - he seems to have changed the spelling of his first name over the years) output is much more variable, but I love (most of) it for its rawness and slightly chaotic feel. Also for the imperfections of Graham's slightly thin, vulnerable sounding voice. He did some really nice cover versions of Beatles and Simon & Garfunkel songs too (among others) on his early albums, which I prefer to the originals although again they tend to be sloppier.

Originally posted by LordSnooty
Am I right in thinking Davy Graham more-or-less invented DADGAD tuning?

Yes, Davy is credited with bringing the DADGAD tuning into mainstream folk music in the early to mid-60s. It's since become widely used by virtually everyone in folk: (eg Richard Thompson, Martin Carthy, to name just two). Jimmy Page also uses DADGAD on Black Mountainside from LZ I.

If he hadn't deliberately become an unreliable junkie, I suspect that Davy Graham could have received the acclaim that Bert Jansch is getting now. He was certainly just as influential as Bert, if not more so.

Thankfully, most of his albums are now available on CD. They're definitely worth investigating as, at the risk of lapsing into hyperbole, I really feel that Davy is possibly the finest acoustic blues/folk guitarist there has ever been

whoops.

Was reading this thread listening to PhanFM (private station) when I found myself listening to "You're my drug" by "The Dukes of the Stratosphear", inexplicably followed by "The Ballad of Peter Pumpkinhead". It was then I realised that by some oversight I have neglected to mention XTC and Andy Partridge.

Great band, great singer, lyrics of pure poetry and well crafted pop tunes - delivering more than the usual love oriented waffle.

Somehow, amidst the fallout of the end of my last relationship, I ended up with my ex-partner's ex-husband's vinyl copy of 'Psonic Psunspot' by 'The Dukes...' 'You're My Drug' is a standout, I also love 'Brainiac's Daughter', not least for the bit about the giant cranefly, and the foghorn. I like XTC a lot, but cannot help feel they should'nt have been cutting off their noses to spite their faces (as it were) for so long, by pointedly using a drum machine instead of real drums, as a (very long) dig at Terry Chambers. One of the reasons The Dukes sound so good is they had a proper drummer.

Hmm, never got into the Dukes (or later XTC) myself, but everything English Settlement and earlier was pretty damned marvellous.

Some excellent [and amusing] postings by the Lords C and S, Mini, Mojo, Dan etc.

Ega95jch,
I think the piece referred to by Maconie was most likely to be 'The Lark Ascending' by Vaughan-Williams. It is a piece for solo violin and small orchestra. I am sure you will appreciate it. Incidentally, it is also the favourite music of Jim Moir [Vic Reeves]!

Agent Gypo,
Thanks for the info re Aphex Twin and Polygon Window. I will definately look out for them.

Originally posted by timo

Agent Gypo,
Thanks for the info re Aphex Twin and Polygon Window. I will definately look out for them.

the postings from Gyp made go 'a-hunting' in my own record collection. Timo,you might be interested to know that on a Aphex twin compilation called 26 mixes for cash (http://www.freecds.com/Electronica-Dance/UK-Techno/26-Mixes-For-Cash-234854.html) its got a phillip Glass/ eno remix that has all the Richard d james hallmarks; that is, its originality and ability to leave the listener feeling uneasy. It might be a good place to start. My personal favourite is the 'DRUKQS' CD

I recently completed an avant-garde composition inspired by Vaughan Williams. I'll describe it for you. It begins with the sound of birdsong, sampled from a BBC Sound Effects LP. After a few moments, we hear the report of a twelve-bore shotgun, replicated using a twelve-bore shotgun. The middle section is played on a large swanee whistle, starting with the slide all the way in. Gradually, the slide is let out until the lowest note is reached. The piece ends with a sickening thud on a bass drum. I've entitled it, 'The Lark Descending'.

Snooty, you are an inspiration to us all!

Originally posted by Sheffette
Snooty, you are an inspiration to us all! It’s all those jumpers knitted by his elderly admirers and his ample girth that does it!;)

his ample girth

Crikey, no-one's ever said THAT about me before. Thanks Mini!

Miniminch,
Thanks pal for the kind info on '26 Mixes'. I will start there. It is nice to see that Richard James draws upon Glass and Bowie/Eno there. I really must get Aphixed to the max, as IDM [note the ease with which one slips into this 'youthspeak'] is so terribly crucial nowadays. Seriously, I have liked the bits of Aphix Twin that I've heard, and it is time to plug that gap in my knowledge.

Snooty,
I am surprised that you have, as yet, failed to mention some of your favourites like Al Bowly [was he English?] from the twenties and thirties. I know you appreciate music from this era, and wonder who you might cite as 'great'?

Watcha Timo. Al (Bowlly) was South African but spent most of his career in England. He was more popular here than Bing Crosby at one point! I like his stuff very much, the (almost) best of it dating from his residency at the Monseigneur with Lew Stone. I say 'almost' - my favourite Al Bowlly material is the recordings he made when he was virtually unknown, as a 'new arrival' to England in the early 'twenties, I think. But then, people are often at their best when striving for success. There is a song called 'Madonna Mine' - just a silly sentimental thing - on which he is accompanied by solo piano courtesy of one Monia Liter. It's heavenly.... He went a bit 'soft' after this period. Obviously, he was hardly 'nu-metal' to start with; what I mean is, the yearning went out of his voice and he 'coasted' (wonderfully) through songs, rather than lived in them. A bit like Liam Gallagher, actually.

Only the other day, I received at last a (very rare) austrailian CD issue of the Pennies from Heaven soundtrack - the Potter/BBC one, I mean. There are some beauties on that, my favourite being a bizarre, spooky instrumental called 'Garden of Weed'. I bought the selected sheet music book of PFH a few weeks ago and it is in it! I can manage the first sixteen bars or so - after that it is all over the place. There is another FANTASTIC instrumental on The Singing Detective soundtrack called, hang on (departs to gramaphone library)......'Rockin' in Rhythm' by The Jungle Band - yes - Duke Ellington! This is the tune we hear each time we return to the young Phillip Marlow a-cussin' up in the tree tops. I think we're coming to the reason why I haven't weighed in with my love of 20s/30s music on this thread; the americans did it so much better!

To be objective about all this (yes, yes, objectivity is subjective), although I love this kind of music, I can see it is really just throwaway, commercial stuff. It has, however, gained a kind of patina of age, making it seem perhaps more worthy than it actually is. That said, the level of musicianship, arrangement and composition is much higher than your average 'pop' recording of today. As to what constitutes the 'finest' English music of the last century? I'd have to say Elgar's Enigma Variations. I have no interest in sport whatsoever and hate the olympics, but I would love to hear 'Nimrod' played as our national anthem (when we become a republic). At the moment, the French have got the best tune, in my opinion....

Interesting post, Snooty. I cannot ever see the popular music of the twenties and thirties ever becoming fashionable, but I agree with you re the standard of musicianship. Some of the background music in Laurel and Hardy films is 'throwaway', but some is actually quite good I have noticed . Duke Ellington is great though, and I agree re 'Rockin' in Rhythm'. My favourite of Duke's is the sly, sensuous 'Prelude to a Kiss', which evokes the image of a very sophisticated, vampish young woman looking sideways at a rather gauche young man, waiting for him to pluck up the necessary courage to kiss her.

Re the 'finest' English music of the 2Oth Century, we have had all sorts so far. I still stick with Vaughan-Williams' 'Pastoral Symphony' and 'On Wenlock Edge'. After listening to these two gems, everything else just sounds like a pointless tune-up to me. The criteria here does not have anything to do with patriotism, just geography. Nevertheless, the previous favourites of mine do evoke an idealistic picture of rural England that I unashamedly adore. It is, of course, a delusion. The pastoral idea- that human happiness can be found again by returning to the nature we have left behind- has been the major force in shaping and moulding the vision of picture-England in the last 400 years. Pastoral describes the home - the national burrow- which we are destined never to find because, by definition, it can never be the place where we find ourselves.

One of the finest miniatures ever composed by an English-born creator has to be Charlie Chaplin's "Smile".