Does anyone here have any plans on going down to London to make their views known to George W. Bush? I know Sheffield has an active anti-war group (http://www.sheffieldagainstwar.org.uk/) but is anyone else going down? Is it really worthwile, do you think Bush would actually care even if they are allowed near him? I'm interested in hearing your views.

He's not arriving 'till next week. Plenty of time to burn those US flags on The Mall!

Originally posted by Geoff
Does anyone here have any plans on going down to London to make their views known to George W. Bush? I know Sheffield has an active anti-war group (http://www.sheffieldagainstwar.org.uk/) but is anyone else going down? Is it really worthwile, do you think Bush would actually care even if they are allowed near him? I'm interested in hearing your views.
It's not so much a question of whether a demonstration will have much impact - it's more about people standing up and being counted for what they believe in.

What many anti-bush protestors believe is that GWB instigated an unecessary war in the face of a complete capitulation by Iraq previous to the invasion.

Others are protesting because they believe the imprisonment of not-POWs, not-criminals, and not-terrorists (categorised by the US neologism 'unlawful combatants') without trial, representation or any form of habeas corpus is an affront to the world of 'peace and justice' that the USA claims to promote and export.

Others, like me, simply believe that GWB and Blair are outright liars that started a war for completely different reasons than the ones that they gave, and even now are trying to post-rationalise their actions with completely different reasons for invasion.

Not only should they be ejected from office, but they should both have to face close scrutiny on their parts in bringing about this war, preferably under oath.

Of course a protest will not bring any of these issues to a resolution, but it will hopefully keep the issue high on the poltical and public agenda.

The worst thing that could happen is this story gradually sinks beyond trace as the govt would like it to do as quickly as possible.

im too lazy to do anything about anything :(

so im just going to sit back and watch our gr8 country turn into another crappy America, along with the rest of you, as it dosent really matter what we think and how much time we spend protesting about things, governments have this annoying tendency to act first and appologise afterwards.

tiz a sad world were living in.

Originally posted by BensoN
im too lazy to do anything about anything :(
Are you sure you're not my twin brother, who I know nothing about?

That is exactly what I was about to say.

I find it ironic that some months ago, Bush told Prince Charles that a visit by him to the U.S. would be unwelcome - apparently due to his adverse attitude to the invasion of Iraq.

Interesting that Blair is now planning to welcome Bush to Britain with open arms.

Regarding the Bush visit - does anyone know if there is any kind of protest planned in Sheffield? It would be nice if there was a series of protests all around Britain.

Originally posted by BensoN
im too lazy to do anything about anything
no probs, not everyone is, you sit back and watch it on the telly :)
so im just going to sit back and watch our gr8 country turn into another crappy America, along with the rest of you, as it dosent really matter what we think and how much time we spend protesting about things, governments have this annoying tendency to act first and appologise afterwards.

That is what they want you to think. You know why the police were so nice on March 15th demo? Because there was sweet FA they could do if over a million people decided to do something they didn't like.

Trust me on this, the effect may not be direct, but opinions are influenced, and ALL politicians, apart from the retiring or dead (dead and still lying!), are looking at getting reelected or elected, and will say anything you like if you promise them your vote (of course you still don't have to give it to them!)

Originally posted by Carlwarker
Regarding the Bush visit - does anyone know if there is any kind of protest planned in Sheffield? It would be nice if there was a series of protests all around Britain.
The Stop the War Coalition (http://www.stopwar.org.uk) has slots of information on national and local events. There is one in Sheffield on Saturday more info here (http://www.sheffieldagainstwar.org.uk/events/sheffdemo-151103/).

Plus lots of information on local groups within Sheffield, such as
Nether Edge against (the) War (http://www.againstwar.org.uk/)

See you there. May bring my drum if anyone else wants to turn up and bang on about the war!

why bother going anyway ..lets face it its not gonna change anything an just think for all the police there having to police the jesus sandle brigade will be money wasted when it could be better spent fighting crime rather than wasting it on a bunch of losers
if 100 thousand turn up theyl be saying where speaking for the country etc etc funny thing i always thought the populatin was 60 million or somthing give or take a few hundred thousand a seekers and illegals
100 thousand ..out of 60 million very very impressive

Originally posted by Carlwarker
Regarding the Bush visit - does anyone know if there is any kind of protest planned in Sheffield? It would be nice if there was a series of protests all around Britain.

Yes CarlWalker -
12 at Barkers Pool (City Hall - Ibeleive) and 12.30 at Peace Gardens. I also believe theirs something going on in morning at Town Hall - for kids and adults!

Anyone know more details?????

Originally posted by hiyabeing
Yes CarlWalker -
12 at Barkers Pool (City Hall - Ibeleive) and 12.30 at Peace Gardens. I also believe theirs something going on in morning at Town Hall - for kids and adults!

Anyone know more details?????

Cheers H. Anyone planning on going?

Originally posted by panda79
why bother going anyway ..lets face it its not gonna change anything an just think for all the police there having to police the jesus sandle brigade will be money wasted when it could be better spent fighting crime rather than wasting it on a bunch of losers
if 100 thousand turn up theyl be saying where speaking for the country etc etc funny thing i always thought the populatin was 60 million or somthing give or take a few hundred thousand a seekers and illegals
100 thousand ..out of 60 million very very impressive
100,000 people in one city is impressive. Protesters are just the visable tip of the iceberg and polititions know this. If hundreds of thousands of people get off their a*ses to protest against your policies then you know you have a serious problem.

Strange that you dismiss these people as losers. At least they have an opinion and the get up and go to try and actually influence and change things. The real losers are the sheep who simply follow where they are lead because they are too lazy or ignorant to do anything other.

I too once had a sandal phobia but can now wear them with pride. They are very comfortable you know. ;)

I can't really afford to go to the London protests, but I'll hopefully be at the Sheffield protest.

Just think, if all those who sat there thinking "What difference can I make?" actually got together and joined in, then the thousands could turn to millions, and maybe things could change.

Visit the below site and give Bush hell!!


www.resist.org.uk

in case it got missed in my previous post (I know some of you don't like anything too long)

The Stop the War Coalition (http://www.stopwar.org.uk) has slots of information on national and local events. There is one in Sheffield on Saturday more info here (http://www.sheffieldagainstwar.org.uk/events/sheffdemo-151103/).

Plus lots of information on local groups within Sheffield, such as
Nether Edge against (the) War (http://www.againstwar.org.uk/)

Originally posted by panda79

100 thousand ..out of 60 million very very impressive
Two million or more people accross Britain came out against the war on March 15th.

That's over 3% off the population - I found that to be quite impressive. What was really breathtaking was the disregard Blair, Straw, Hoon, et al. had for this demonstration. Not to mention *all* the other politicians who didn't turn up.

And the mob turned out to be right:
No WMD.
No Active Nuclear Programme
No planning for post conflict period

I knew that the demonstrations would not halt the war, or force the hand of any world government. That is hardly the point.

The longer the public eye dwells on Iraq, the more obvious it will become that the whole rationale for war was a sham.

The more quickly the public eye moves on to something else - Diana Inquiry, Soham, Zimbabwe, Red Cross banning Christmas - the happier the government will be.

The purpose of demonstrating now, is to help focus the public eye on the irrefutable fact that British forces invaded a foreign country on false pretences, in contravention of international law, against the will of the UN, and (before the war started) the majority iof the British public, The EU, the Middle East, even Kuwait.

The truth will out...

i looked at the sheffield stop the war site ... theres some very nice peace loving suicide bombers coming to the losers day out at the city hall at mid day......just a thought have you any consideration to the families tryin to do there xmas shopping i tell you somthing if any of you lot delay my shopping trip i must mention i wear steel capped dm ...have a nice day wont you

Panda79 thats SO rude!!!!!!
I HATE christmas shopping, but I certainly woudn't blame it on being worse coz of Anti-War protestors.
Merely people doing their Christmas (or any shopping) annoys me! Especially having lived in SKegness - I don't stop for no reason in the middle of the street why does everyone else????

small demo, but as an awareness raiser it was fine. Police expected about double the numbers if not more, but it stuggled to break into more than about 150-200 people at the theight. Good natured, reasonable oratory (no spleen venting rhetoric), plus The Sheffield Samba Band (always a bonus)

The boy (2 1/2) had a great time too, melting the heart of a pretty WPC - he's a babe magnet~(up to a point - I'm not a single Dad!)

150 -200 whats the percentage of that then with the population of sheffield ?:confused:

Originally posted by panda79
150 -200 whats the percentage of that then with the population of sheffield ?:confused:
I'm sure you can manage to work that out for yourself. Just divide 150 by the population of Sheffield and multiply the answer by 100.

no i want you to tell me
just think wot the police could have been doing rather than watch a bunch of losers ...oh btw out of 150-200 how many children where they

Originally posted by panda79
no i want you to tell me
If you want me to work it out for you, you'll ned to ask politely
just think wot the police could have been doing rather than watch a bunch of losers
I wonder why you are so hostile to people exercising their right to free assembly. Talk of steel toecaps if protesters were to 'interrupt your shopping' shows some anger and resentment that people are demonstrating at all.

Any particular reason for this antipathy, or it just the terribly important matter of your uninterrupted shopping trip in town that motivates you

As for the police - they draft extra police in on overtime, specials, mounted and traffic cops for events exactly like these. you could level that sort of slanted remark at any cause for public gathering - like a football match.
...oh btw out of 150-200 how many children where they
I didn't actually stop to count the children, but there were a few there, some older than others. Your point being?

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
I'm sure you can manage to work that out for yourself. Just divide 150 by the population of Sheffield and multiply the answer by 100.

Phan, my friend, you'll need the reciprocal for a correct answer!;)

population of sheff say 100,000
number of gung ho numbnuts in sheff 300

300/100000 = 0.003

multiply by 100

0.003 * 100 = .3

0.3% of Sheffield population are gung-ho numbnuts.

reciprocal? don't understand....

Sorry P – I’m a bit ‘blotted’ at the moment, and was trying to confuse our ‘ shopping-addict’ friend.

I only succeeded in confusing myself (and you).:confused:

typical lefties
put it this way you cant be responsible parents if you can take your kids on protests ... but then again u do have to try an make it look it look like you have loads of followers
so what you marching about next week then ..... maybe its some 1 legged black lesbian freedom for black sisters
oh btw my shopping trip was good

oops lol
forgot about thos downtrodden peace loving suicide bombers ull be marching for them

Originally posted by panda79
typical lefties
put it this way you cant be responsible parents if you can take your kids on protests ... but then again u do have to try an make it look it look like you have loads of followers
so what you marching about next week then ..... maybe its some 1 legged black lesbian freedom for black sisters
oh btw my shopping trip was good
What about the Countryside Alliance marchers, would you call them typical lefties and irresponsible parents?

If somebody tried to bring in a law to, I don't know, stop you shopping, would you use your democratic right to march in protest?

yes if i would if i knew it would actually achive anything
but marching against the war is just pathetic

Originally posted by panda79
typical lefties
put it this way you cant be responsible parents if you can take your kids on protests ... but then again u do have to try an make it look it look like you have loads of followers
so what you marching about next week then ..... maybe its some 1 legged black lesbian freedom for black sisters
oh btw my shopping trip was good

Man, you just nailed your colours to the mast there, didn't you?

If I had as a toxic an outlook as you, I'd be inclined to work out my hatred for others in a less public forum.

but to deal with your "points":

The children were mostly there because their parents are taking responsibility for them, rather than going out and making someone else responsible for them while they attend a demo; and are delighted to be able to spend the day with them as many will be working during the week.

Your axiom "you cant be responsible parents if you can take your kids on protests" sounds extremely ill judged and simplistic, but of course I can't wait for you to prove me wrong. (but I won't hold my breath). Divulge to me how that works will you? People who take their children to any protest cannot be responsible parents? Why?

but then again u do have to try an make it look it look like you have loads of followers

Followers? What do you think this is, some sort of religion. There are superficial parallels, but most people there weren't following agenda, but it was a multiplicity of agendas. Followers? Clearly your concept of what even constitutes a demo is only faintly tinged with reality.

As for the idea that children are used to beef up numbers, then you really don't get it do you? I'd try and explain, but you might fuse your cerebral cortex if you thought hard about it.
so what you marching about next week then ..... maybe its some 1 legged black lesbian freedom for black sisters
Why is it this old cliche gets trotted out like some straw man every time some politically unconcious troglodyte thinks they can slam the left with their rapier like wit?

In this case, obviously, it's a valid point, that I simply can't answer - naturally I will be marching in support of a tangled tautology of 1 legged black lesbian freedom for black sisters march - and I cannot deny it.

oh btw my shopping trip was good

really? how did it rate on a scale of one to ten? how did it compare to other legendary shopping trips? A blow by blow account would be really, really interesting.

As for the illuminating gem:

yes if i would if i knew it would actually achive anything
but marching against the war is just pathetic


How do you know if you will achieve anything unless you try to achieve it? I would have thought that much was obvious to even a springer spaniel. Also rather depends on what you are trying to achieve, but as I said before, I'm not the one to try and explain things like that to you.

Originally posted by Carlwarker
Sorry P – I’m a bit ‘blotted’ at the moment, and was trying to confuse our ‘ shopping-addict’ friend.

I only succeeded in confusing myself (and you).:confused:
How's it going there CarlWarker?

Confused hell outta me - you're the maths teacher! I was frantically looking for the error.

PS how are you on real and imaginary numbers, could use some help with these fractal formulae of mine

www.netheredge.com/albums/frax/

:)

[edit]
Almost forgot : www.netheredge.com/albums/demo - spot yourself in the crowd maybe?

my hatred eh
only hatred i see on here is coming from you .. your hatred of america borders on the racist i could go on but why bother oh an you can quote as many times in your posts it just makes you look as pathetic as the marchers today
im sure mr bush cares about a group of losers from nether edge with far too much time on there hands
one of the things i will take you to task on on is about taking children on marches ..it is stupid to take them just think of the saftey issues but if they got hurt on the said marches it would be the fault of the police...its sad misguided fools like you what make me ashamed to be british

very impressive photos reminded me of spot the ball instead its spot the protester

Originally posted by panda79
my hatred eh
only hatred i see on here is coming from you .. your hatred of america borders on the racist i could go on but why bother oh an you can quote as many times in your posts it just makes you look as pathetic as the marchers today
im sure mr bush cares about a group of losers from nether edge with far too much time on there hands
one of the things i will take you to task on on is about taking children on marches ..it is stupid to take them just think of the saftey issues but if they got hurt on the said marches it would be the fault of the police...its sad misguided fools like you what make me ashamed to be british
I never mentioned your hatred, I talked about my hatred...

Hatred of america? substantiate that claim.
racist? substantiate that claim

rest of it - couldn't give a rats ass anymore, you're not prepared to debate, why bother to respond at all?

and don't assume I'm british because my spelling is marginally better than yours.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
How's it going there CarlWarker?

PS how are you on real and imaginary numbers, could use some help with these fractal formulae of mine


Vely vely well, he answered, from within his Ancient Chinese persona (see my avatar).

I've been 'Stoned' (pun intended) on watching Tricky Dicky (BBC4). Quite a ‘colorful’ trip down memory lane – in the early 70s, demonstrating along with draught dodgers (Vietnam) from the States on Watergate in Winnipeg. Earlier (late 60s at U of Sask)), chatting, then writing about in the University Rag, with Fred Hampton, Minister of Information of the Chicago Black Panthers – two weeks before he was shot , along with women and children, when the police invaded their headquarters – there WAS a civil war in the States at that time. Best of all (he smiles with tonight’s glee), being invited to the Press showing of ‘Easy Rider’ (very appropriate tonight). All in all, vely, vely well.

If this uninformed, commercial friend studied the history, just of the last forty years (for me tonight – I’ve just relived some of it), he may realize that demonstrations CAN and DO make a difference – YES (he shouts) – ESPECIALLY against war.

Wow, just realized that I’m within the thread, not just using the Forum as a chat room!

As regards real and imaginary numbers, I’m quite ambivalent about them – although the Natural Numbers are my favourite, they’re just a head trip (literally). It was nice (and fortunate) to be able to travel during the last thirty-odd years just by virtue of a head game.

Think I’ll put some Moody Blues on now – and chill out, while looking at your fractals.

Thank you very much, my friend for the fractals – totally appropriate.

ps. I'll get back to you about the numbers later.

think we got the new morcambe and wise ,,, pan and carl scarry very scary

What a devastating comeback. Refuted all our assertions in one quick post. Amazing.

so whens the next anti war rally then phan im sure it will be MASSIVE and have that very nice mr bush running back to texas

Originally posted by panda79
think we got the new morcambe and wise ,,, pan and carl scarry very scary

The only joker in this pack is you, my friend.:)

me a joker thats a good one
well i dont do protests for lost causes in the city centre now thats a joke its about time the anti war movement moved on to another lost cause ie the a seekers oh btw if you really want to help iraq why dont you send money to various causes im sure that would achive a lot more dont you think

Originally posted by panda79
me a joker thats a good one
well i dont do protests for lost causes in the city centre now thats a joke its about time the anti war movement moved on to another lost cause ie the a seekers oh btw if you really want to help iraq why dont you send money to various causes im sure that would achive a lot more dont you think

I would really like to know what your thinking on the whole Iraq situation is and why you dislike demonstrators so much (apart from the specious points you have delineated so far). That is if you have any thinking whatsoever.

Why is it time for the Anti-war protesters to move to another 'lost cause'? What is it about asylum seekers that makes them a 'lost cause'.

What makes you think I do not donate to charity?

More importantly, what makes you think - and have you run out of it recently?

Why does it matter so much to you that people stand up for what they believe in? Is it because you don't actually believe in anything yourself, and are simply jealous of people with a sense of purpose when your own life has none? I'm only speculating you understand, I'd really like to you set me straight.

[repeatedly edited for spelling and syntax - sigh]

Do you think that there is any connection with the UK on the second highest terror alert?

Couldn't possibly be a good excuse to invoke the terrorism act during Bush's visit....could it? :o ;)

Originally posted by Lickszz
Do you think that there is any connection with the UK on the second highest terror alert?

Couldn't possibly be a good excuse to invoke the terrorism act during Bush's visit....could it? :o ;)

My thoughts exactly L, when I first read about it.

I couldn't spot myself in those photos Phan, but then I didn't get into town until just before 1:00 - just in time to tag on to the end of the march!

Panda79 - erm, I'm sorry my friend, but I find your comments rather disturbing - so much hatred, which doesn't really help anyone. If you disagree so much with Protesters, then why not try and construct a valid argument, and try and refute some of the points made?

You're obviously speaking your mind, albeit in a rather childish way, but is that any reason for people to hate you back? Disagree with you, yes - argue against you, yes, but to start name-calling? No. The predictable names you're calling the left/anti war protesters/any group which is not your own, is making you look just a little bit silly.

I have no desire to attend any protest against the war in Iraq, never have never will.

All this whinging about WOMD, great super smashing but people seem to be missing the point that regardless of weapons like this Saddam was murdering and torturing people.

Protest against the war and help Saddam murder a few more million of his own people. I am quite painfully aware that war brings death and civillians will - no matter how hard the forces try - end up being killed in the crossfire and confusion. The lesser of two evils and I would rather help do something than stand by and do nothing.

On the otherside of the argument, it is time to bring our boys home.

Moon

Originally posted by Moon Maiden
I have no desire to attend any protest against the war in Iraq, never have never will.

All this whinging about WOMD, great super smashing but people seem to be missing the point that regardless of weapons like this Saddam was murdering and torturing people.

You seem to think that the paper thin pretext for invasion (WMD) isn't a serious issue?

I always think that if you are going to go to war, your reasons should be real, rather than imaginary.

It doesn't bother you that you were lied to by your government?

Saddam was not the only one murdering and torturing people, so I can take it you support sending British Troops in to Algeria, The Democratic republic of the Congo, China, Burma, Indonesia, Libya, Russia? (to name but a few) Why was Iraq so Different,

Protest against the war and help Saddam murder a few more million of his own people.

What war? The war is "over". How will Saddam "murder a few million more of his own people"? How will this be brought about by protesting against the visit of GWB?

I am quite painfully aware that war brings death and civillians will - no matter how hard the forces try - end up being killed in the crossfire and confusion. The lesser of two evils and I would rather help do something than stand by and do nothing.

You make it sound like help by invading the country with a large army and doing nothing were the only two possibilities. This was a false dichotomy created by the US administration - either you fight with us or you are against us and with them.

Sorry - not true. There were plenty of ways to help the Iraqi people without bombing the crap out of their country. Sanctions busters, and the red cross/crescent, MSF etc were doing what they could in the face of British and US indifference to the fate of the Iraqi people.

This is not about "collateral damage" to use the quaint Pentagon phrase.

This is about international law, and pre-emptive attack. (You look dangerous so I will kill you)

This is about being lied to by our Prime Minister and our government. Conclusively. ("This is not about regime change this is about weapons of mass destruction" - Tony Blair)

This is about British Foreign and Military policy being effectively dictated by the USA.

This is about committing British forces to the region for at least another five to ten years.

This is about fair competition for the limited resources of the world, and how we go about it. Preferably not through taking it by force.


On the otherside of the argument, it is time to bring our boys home.

Unfortunately some of them will be coming home in coffins for the next five to ten years. For what?

What concerns me about the whole affair is that the government had to lie to the people of this country for them to give a damn about the horrific way in which Saddam was treating his own people because they may not have agreed with his wonderful dictatorship.
I never supported the war in Iraq because of WOMD, of course it would be stupid of me to say that what the government had said was not a conern, my own personal support was based on the chemical weapons attacks on his own people.

Yes I will support any military action in any country where all previous peaceful attempts have failed to bring about the right of freedom to it's people. Which is what happened in Iraq. I have to wonder how much longer the UN would have waited and how many more people would have been slaughtered and totured in the meantime.

Our boys sign up to be soldiers - that is NOT pushing paper in Whitehall expecting to be wrapped in cotton wool during conflict of any description. Some of our boys will come home in coffins, but I am proud of those that do and those who don't for completing a difficult job and I am thankful.

As for political red tape and Bush hatred, your list of reasons are completely irrelevant to my own reasons for supporting military action in Iraq.

Blair does as he is told and not by Bush which seems to be the popular consensus for Bush and Blair haters.

Moon Maiden

Moon, why do those that supported the war keep changing their minds about why?

First of all it was to eliminate the threat from WMD. Then, when it's proven there aren't any we're told it was actual about the "war against terrorism".

Trouble with this was that evidence proving links to Al Qaeda turned out to be untrue - a bit like the evidence of plutonium purchases for the alleged nuclear programme were forged (umm, I wonder who by?). Couple this disinformation with the fact that the threat from terrorism is actually far worse since the war and it's time for another excuse.

Now we are being told that WMD and the fight against terrorism were "secondary issues". The real reason for going to war was to provide the people of Iraq with democracy. Out of all the nations in the world without democracy Iraq were the lucky winners of the liberation lottery.

Well Iraq doesn't have democracy yet and the jury is still out as to whether this invasion will give it to them. One thing is for certain, you can't invade a country, destroying its power-base and much of its infrastructure, "bring home our boys" and expect democracy to bloom. Make no mistake, our boys will be there for years to come unless the US and UK governments shamelessly abandon the people of Irqa and any chance they have of democracy.

Well spoken. I switch to another TV channel if Bush or Blair show up. I don't want to see them anymore. They are responsible for the death of tenthousands. And so are those who support them.