I've previously expressed my distaste for the fact the modern pop music is all about cover versions, karaoke and TV "pop idol" competitions, but now I'm starting to wonder if the reason for this is that songwriters are running out of ideas simply because all the best songs have already been written.

Whilst what we now know as "pop music" has probably only been around for 50 years, the number of bands and songwriters seems to have increased massively with every year. Whether signed to a record label or just an amateur, there's thousands of people writing and recording their own music and every town or city has loads of local bands performing regularly in the hope of being "discovered".

Furthermore Western pop music has very limiting rules. There are only 12 notes in an octave, so if you play a musical note, you only have 11 other options for where to go next, and if you restrict yourself to a particular key, that cuts the options down to 7 notes! Western musicians also tend to stick to the same chords; typically those that are easiest to play on guitar or piano, and few pop songs have more than 3 or 4 chords. Lastly the conventional band line up of guitar, bass and drums means that the sound palette is also extremly limiting.

It would seem therefore that all the best tunes have already been written and there's simply no need for new bands to write new songs. The future of popular music will therefore not be about originality but about reworking old ideas in the form of yet more cover versions and TV singing competitions.

To paraphrase a well known 1990s indie band, has pop eaten itself?

Some interesting points there BasilRathbon. Firstly, I share your distaste for covers, karaoke and pop idol culture that you refer to (although the Beatles, Stones etc did loads of covers, especially in their early days). As for the best songs already been written, no, definitely not. In pop music, there will always be something new and fresh that will capture people's imagininations. Previously "underground" genres find their way into the mainstream year after year. For example, "indie" music as it was once known is now mainstream. Also, the "grime" genre, as pioneered in East London by the likes of Dizzee Rascal, Wiley, Roll Deep and Kano is now shifting into the mainstream - I for one never imagined that would happen back in 2003! The point is, by taking influences from previous examples of popular music, putting them into a big melting pot, and using the same tools of the trade, it is quite possible to foment something original sounding.

Pop music does reinvent itself with regularity, and even if the music in the charts doesn't do it for you, there is always going to be music out there that might take your fancy. The key is finding it.

Pop Will Eat Itself weren't THAT well known either!

This new 'Indie' music - has it ever seen an independant label?

Modern pop music is very dull to me. But that doesn't mean that modern music as a whole is dull. At the moment, I very much like the idea of drone music, the fact that you use the instruments to create an atmosphere, rather than playing what most people would recognise as music.

We have guitars and have had them for a long time, and there isn't much that hasn't been done with them, so why not try using them in an unconventional way? A lot of people I play drone to say they don't get it.

Well, they don't have to get it, they just have to realise that we can set our own parameters when creating music, the same as the early electronic musicians did.

Away from guitars, programs like Fruity Loops are making high end music production more accessible to people who are spilling over with creativity but might not have had the musical know how (or money) to be able to make the music before.

This has helped the grime, electro and dubstep music that is quickly growing in popularity and progressing in quality.

I might be going on a bit here, and I do realise this was sort of aimed at pop music rather than just music in general, but I do find it odd when people who like music and take an active interest in finding new music say they don't think there's anything good out there at the moment. Seek and ye shall find.

As for the 'indie' bands like Kaiser Chiefs, Artic Monkeys etc etc, I find it all a bit boring but there's still a place for it as long as people enjoy it. These bands are still putting the effort into making the music they want to make and people still want to hear it.

It's not just about the 12 notes available (in the western scale - indian scales utilize quarter scales) but what sounds comfortable on the human ear. Music depends on melody over practically anything else - you can run up and down scales in any key but when you come out of that key (usually the home or root key) the question is where to go?

The songs which have almost become 'standard' are those which go where you expect them to go. Good old rock n roll notation (C, Am, F and G for example, or if you prefer, the same progression in another key: E, C#m, F#m, B) has been used on zillions of songs. It becomes familiar and after a while, unless you can make it exciting by way of a middle-eight for example, you begin to run out of options.

A good example is the Beatles' From Me To You, swinging between C and Am in the verse but McCartney flavoured and coloured the song by way of a flattened 3rd (Gm - "I got arms that long to hold you") which took the song elsewhere, melodically. Take Twist and Shout, (E, A, B ad infinitum) and swap it for La Bamba or George Harrison's cover of Rudy Clarke's Got My Mind Set On You. You can literally paste each song onto the same chord sequence (and I think they're in the same key here).

The Beatles were clever, taking obvious chord sequences but taking the melody out of the ordinary, expected journey.

My answer is yes, the best melodies have been written already (in pop music's brief history). We get the same ones churned out daily but arguably recorded on better equipment and with stranger sounds. The production is almost used to cover up the simplicity of the chord sequence and scale - to make it NOT sound like so and so.

If I want to be excited by melody I'm more likely to put on a bit of Antonin Dvorak or some Mozart. Now that requires skill.

I could talk for hours on the subject but alas, I gotta go.

This new 'Indie' music - has it ever seen an independent label?

Certainly has dude. In fact, this music has actually been released on independant labels. Check out the Wiley album "Treddin' On Thin Ice" on XL, or indeed Dizzee Rascal's own indie label Dirtee Stank, which has put out records by up and coming new grime acts such as Newham Generals and Klass A. In fact, the whole genre developed independent of any label, largely through the distribution of mixtapes and also through pirate radio.

It's a true "indie" phenomenon! :thumbsup:

I lost faith in metal a while ago because it all came really generic and samey and you had the new bands trying to be old with a new twist.

The only shining light to me at the time was Dream Theater. However, after discovering the likes of Korpiklaani, Finntroll, Turisas, Alestorm etc. my faith has been restored. Granted, they're not really doind anything new, but they are fun and have enthusiasm and seem to enjoy what they do, which I can respect.

I don't think ALL of the best tunes have been written as there are new ones I hear now that make me smile, but they will have been based on those from musical history.

But then again, who cares as long as you enjoy it; whether it's original or not.

But then again, who cares as long as you enjoy it; whether it's original or not.

Agreed. That's got to be the only benchmark, surely? Ooh, Words and Things - lovely article in there recently about music http://www.wordsandthings.co.uk/words&things/specialfeature.html
Wicked dude!

There are no original songs any more, it's all "seen it all before" pop pap, or crap cover versions that suck compared to the originals (Alexandra Burke's version of Hallelujah anyone?)

I'll say. They'll never better Agadoo.

There are no original songs any more, it's all "seen it all before" pop pap, or crap cover versions that suck compared to the originals (Alexandra Burke's version of Hallelujah anyone?)

Sweeping generalisation! I've heard many songs already this year that don't fall into either of those categories.

Not only have the best tunes been written but also the best songs. Will there ever be another Cole Porter or Irvin Berlin ? (Dont mention Andrew Lloyd Webber please !! ):rolleyes:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KGuFn0RPgaE

I think this answers the point sufficiently.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KGuFn0RPgaE

I think this answers the point sufficiently.

Classic choon dude!

There are no original songs any more, it's all "seen it all before" pop pap, or crap cover versions that suck compared to the originals (Alexandra Burke's version of Hallelujah anyone?)

Where have you seen this pop pap before Rich?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=80XH6uc1R-I

Whether you like it or not, there is original stuff out there.

Some fascinating information here, very interesting to someone who knows absolutely nothing about the subject.
I've never been a fan of a particular genre or artiste but dip into bits of all sorts of music, from opera to rock to folk to country and yes even Agadoo (because the kids liked it). For me it very much has to have a recognisable melody, followed by an interesting interpretation. I could never stand the likes of Tony Bennett, Sinatra etc for the sheer mind numbing boredom of their delivery(to me anyway)

Yes.

But I think we are all missing the point of pop music.

Pop music is written for teenagers. It's not really for me or for the majority of people on here - it's for kids who are discovering what they like and what direction they want to look at in music and what they will look at retrospectively as well as what genres they will try to listen to. I was listening to a new band called Silent Call (?) yesterday and someone had put on their youtube wall, "wow so ahead of their time, this is the future of music" whereas i thought, oh good call, someone who sounds like Feargal Sharkey and his band sound like the Undertones but with a Manchester accent.

That's why it doesn't matter if Pop groups do cover versions. When you are 12, everything is new! (I remember my own shock discovering that Paul Young had not written Wherever I lay my hat and infact it was a jaunty little number by Marvin G)

There are only so many notes and so many combinations and as any of us who've ever tried to learn an instrument, loads of them that sound bad. But it's the combination of different sounds and instruments that make something sound fresh.

(I remember my own shock discovering that Paul Young had not written Wherever I lay my hat and infact it was a jaunty little number by Marvin G).

I only found out quite recently that the Yazz & The Plastic Population classic "The Only Way Is Up" is a cover! Seriously, I was shocked! That was a primary school fave of mine!

Sweeping generalisation! I've heard many songs already this year that don't fall into either of those categories.

Sweeping generalisations from Rich? Surely not!

Sometimes it's nice to let a thread simmer for a few days before returning to it, and I have to say I've been intrigued by most of the replies so far. What's interesting is that a lot of the new genres other posters have referred to are in essence rhythmic rather than melodic; I'm not too well up on all this grimestep-twocore-crunk stuff that the kids are listening to these days but esentially much of it is primarily about the words - more often rapped or shouted than sung - with the backing being largely drum loops and a simple bass line repeated. Not my cup of tea personally, but isn't the whole purpose of new music genres to baffle and annoy older generations?!!


Edna's point about how pop music is essentially for teenagers and each generation is convinced they've just invented a completely new form of music is also spot on. When I hear much of what I understand as modern indie, I hear echos not just of the Undertones but also XTC, Gang Of Four and Wire, but were you to mention this to the teenagers who listen to such music they'd just look at you blankly.

Nevertheless, the retreat from melody in favour of rhythm and the rehashing of 30-year old musical styles and timbres does seem to suggest that many contemporary artists are finding coming up with new tunes too much of a challenge.

Sometimes it's nice to let a thread simmer for a few days before returning to it, and I have to say I've been intrigued by most of the replies so far. What's interesting is that a lot of the new genres other posters have referred to are in essence rhythmic rather than melodic; I'm not too well up on all this grimestep-twocore-crunk stuff that the kids are listening to these days but esentially much of it is primarily about the words - more often rapped or shouted than sung - with the backing being largely drum loops and a simple bass line repeated. Not my cup of tea personally, but isn't the whole purpose of new music genres to baffle and annoy older generations?!!


Edna's point about how pop music is essentially for teenagers and each generation is convinced they've just invented a completely new form of music is also spot on. When I hear much of what I understand as modern indie, I hear echos not just of the Undertones but also XTC, Gang Of Four and Wire, but were you to mention this to the teenagers who listen to such music they'd just look at you blankly.

Nevertheless, the retreat from melody in favour of rhythm and the rehashing of 30-year old musical styles and timbres does seem to suggest that many contemporary artists are finding coming up with new tunes too much of a challenge.


Point taken with the repeated basslines etc Basil. The reason I put that particular link up is because the album it comes off takes in many Indian and Chinese influences and it's rather interesting to hear that, although I know it's been done before too. I suppose it's only new within a genre.

I think of the bands that you mentioned there as influences to the modern indie bands, yes, they can all be heard. Gang of Four and Undertones more so than the others I think.

Maybe the teenagers look at you blankly because as well as taking the new music in, they're trying to take the older stuff in too. And there's a lot of it!

Myself, at 26 I listen to as many new albums that come out as possible. But I also have friends who are aged 40+ who know their music and I pick their brains as to what to give a listen as often as possible. This has led to me getting into stuff like Killing Joke, Wire, Throbbing Gristle and a whole world of music I would otherwise have never been listening to.

As for things being radically new in music, there is of course only so much that can be done with music technically due to the limited number of notes etc.

White Lies To lose my life (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=l3P4MAwdBtI)

just reminds me of
Tears for fears Change (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=2P7zp9ykwl8) Let it go to 0:16

with the beat (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=m3fe14TcC5I) from this under it.

Or mebbe it's just me not having much sleep this week! :rolleyes:

I really don't think that all the best tunes have been written - not by a long way. Music is not just about melody. It is about a combination of melody, harmony and rhythm. When you think about it in this sense, the possible permitations are absolutely massive! There is still plenty of good new music being made, and i'm still discovering plenty of older music that i enjoy. I don't think that musicians will ever stop creating things that are different or creative - it might not all be to everyone's taste but then what is?

White Lies To lose my life (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=l3P4MAwdBtI)

just reminds me of
Tears for fears Change (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=2P7zp9ykwl8) Let it go to 0:16

with the beat (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=m3fe14TcC5I) from this under it.

Or mebbe it's just me not having much sleep this week! :rolleyes:

Well, here's the thing, I like White Lies but they aren't anything new. Me and a mate were discussing them the other day and I said I like the album but I wouldn't want to be in a band that sounds like that. It is very close to what has been done before.