Mr Blunkett announced his plans for an I.D. card system to be introduced in the UK within 10 years today. Whilst I personally support the idea of the card (a system which has been used successfully in many other countries worldwide) I still have some reservations about the amount and type of information they will contain.

Fingerprints, for example. I've never been fingerprinted, so if someone wanted to set me up for something (okay, so it's unlikely...) they'd have to get me to actually hold it, rather than copy them from a digitised record... And the retina-scan idea - that's just way too 'Demolition Man' for me!!

What do you think??

As long as these things are INCREDIBLY difficult to forge, I think it's a very good idea. Just 1 ID card that sums up your entire person. It saves too much paper and plastic lying about. Bank cards, driving licences, passports, proof of age etc, etc. All these things will no longer be needed.

Originally posted by Sidla
As long as these things are INCREDIBLY difficult to forge, I think it's a very good idea. Just 1 ID card that sums up your entire person. It saves too much paper and plastic lying about. Bank cards, driving licences, passports, proof of age etc, etc. All these things will no longer be needed.
You're telling me that these ID cards will replace the need for:

BANK CARDS
PASSPORTS and
DRIVING LICENCES all together?

I highly doubt that!

Originally posted by DaBouncer
You're telling me that these ID cards will replace the need for:

BANK CARDS
PASSPORTS and
DRIVING LICENCES all together?

I highly doubt that!
That's the plan I think, unless I'm getting confused somewhere along the lines. Which is very possible.

Might have been wrong about the bank information, but the ID card will be your driving licence and passport.

The facts. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3259285.stm)

I can't see any benefits to it to be honest if you don't have to carry them around with you. Exactly what will we achieve by implenting them? Plus that's one more Government database for people to abuse.

A definate no no..........All the criminalss will get away with it, can't see them volunteering.

I agree with compulsory ID cards for all. I have nothing to hide, so don't care if the government holds all my information. These cards would cut crime, asylum seekers, and underage shoppers.

Originally posted by t020
These cards would cut crime, asylum seekers, and underage shoppers.

Do any shops still care? I bought £160 of computer equipment on Sunday and the shop gave me back my card after it was 'swiped' and BEFORE I'd even signed the slip!

Originally posted by alchresearch
Do any shops still care? I bought £160 of computer equipment on Sunday and the shop gave me back my card after it was 'swiped' and BEFORE I'd even signed the slip!

They would if heavier fines were placed. Perhaps ALL transactions of alcohol, tobacco, Lottery, etc, could only be allowed to go through with an ID card, otherwise the sale would be treated as though the seller had committed a crime and would be subject to a fine. That way, they'd not have the choice.

People will just forge them anyway like they do with everything else.

Originally posted by fnkysknky
People will just forge them anyway like they do with everything else.

Yes, forging ID cards will be big business.

If only an ID card was required instead of a passport, NHS card, NI number card, bank card and drivers licence then I'd welcome it.

As it stands, it goes against what a democracy stands for...the Government are accountable to us (as they humbly admit when they get kicked out). With ID cards, we will be accountable to them.

I too have nothing to hide, but I don't want to carry one with me at all times. Will this become an arrestable offence?

I hope t020 is right - in Labour being kicked out of power at the next election, if nothing else ;)

Originally posted by Abby

I hope t020 is right - in Labour being kicked out of power at the next election, if nothing else ;)
And replaced with what, exactly?

Originally posted by t020
They would if heavier fines were placed. Perhaps ALL transactions of alcohol, tobacco, Lottery, etc, could only be allowed to go through with an ID card, otherwise the sale would be treated as though the seller had committed a crime and would be subject to a fine. That way, they'd not have the choice.

Okay - and you think they'll FINE people rather than arrest them??? And what happens if they steal your I.D. card? How will you drive/buy things/travel?!

Originally posted by t020
They would if heavier fines were placed. Perhaps ALL transactions of alcohol, tobacco, Lottery, etc, could only be allowed to go through with an ID card, otherwise the sale would be treated as though the seller had committed a crime and would be subject to a fine. That way, they'd not have the choice.

That would be an incredibly dark world to live in - bordering on totalitarian. Treated as a criminal for making a purchase (admittedly, you only list a number of items, but the principle is still the same) without your ID card? Not for me thanks.

I'm not a criminal, and believe I contribute positively to this society, but I have plenty to hide, since I don't want all (any) of my personal details stored in a government data warehouse. I want to remain as anonymous as I can - my business is exactly that: mine.

If these cards become compulsory, than I'll do everything I can to avoid getting one, but I'll be punished for wanting to remain as anonymous as I can. Sorry, but that's just wrong in my opinion. I can only hope that I'll have left this country for good before they're introduced. :(

Originally posted by t020
These cards would cut crime, asylum seekers, and underage shoppers.
We would be breaking international laws if we cut down on asylum seekers. Each case must be judged on its merits and to prevent people entering this country seeking asylum would be ethically and legally wrong.

If you are talking about preventing people entering this country claiming asylum fraudulently then I fail to see how id cards will prevent this. Are you suggesting that we issue everyone an id card when they enter this country? What about the ones who arrive illegally? How do we issue cards to those whose entry we know nothing about?

Similar questions exist when you try and explain how they would cut crime and underage shoppers. The underlying motive in both these activities is the acquisition of something to which you are not legally entitiled. Id cards or no id cards, greed will still be the driving factor and no law in the world will stop people supplying and obtaining goods illegally.

I'm not picking on you t020, these are just problems which will have to be addressed before id cards are considered.

Originally posted by Hodge
I'm not a criminal, and believe I contribute positively to this society, but I have plenty to hide, since I don't want all (any) of my personal details stored in a government data warehouse. I want to remain as anonymous as I can - my business is exactly that: mine.

Exactly my point!

:clap: :clap: :clap:

ID cards will not stop crime, will not stop illegal immigrants and will not stop terrorism. Does anyone really think it will? If so please explain how.

Information in databases can be wrong, can be misused, can be illegally sold and can be hacked. The risks are huge. It is not about having "nothing to hide" it is about not living in a world where your every move, action and even thought is being monitored and ultimately controlled.

Even the bloody yanks think this is a step too far!

The main problem being with the idea of ID cards, is the technology for implemantation is not there. The largest retina eye scan database in excistence at the moment is 30,000 records.

Also some of their reasoning for the purposes of the ID card considereably weak.

Apparently it will stop benefit fraud? How I dont know as most benefit fraud is done from people working on the quiet for cash in had. How is the ID card supposed to stop this?

The ID card should apparently stop fraud at hospitals and doctors surgeries, by showing a card for treatment. The fact we already have to register for a doctors and our information is kept on database at hospitals with name and address on, just shows that there is already a system in place for this.

I for one will not carry and ID card, and will refuse them to take biometric information from me. Plus I will certainly not be voting for labour in the next general election (not that I ever have done)

Skatie

I do not see the problem with ID cards, I think paranoia has set in here, let's look at what we already have and don't complain about :
You want to travel abroad - you need a passport.
You want to drive - you need a License.
You want to work or claim benefits - you need a National Insurance number.
You want health or dental treatment - you register with the doctor and dentist.
You want a mortgage or loan or credit - you give them your details.
You want to surf the Internet - you register with an ISP.
And so on....
What's the big deal ?
As long as I don't have to pay for an ID card, I don't mind having one, and while there may be arguments that the system is open to fraud and will not prevent bogus claims etc, I am sure it will help prevent some of this.
Chill out people !

Originally posted by Skatiechik
The ID card should apparently stop fraud at hospitals and doctors surgeries, by showing a card for treatment. The fact we already have to register for a doctors and our information is kept on database at hospitals with name and address on, just shows that there is already a system in place for this.

This is the bit that really gets me - what if I'm out without my card and manage to lose a leg or something. Will the hospital just leave me to bleed to death until someone fetches the card for me??!!

Originally posted by Michael_W
I do not see the problem with ID cards, I think paranoia has set in here, let's look at what we already have and don't complain about :
You want to travel abroad - you need a passport.
You want to drive - you need a License.
You want to work or claim benefits - you need a National Insurance number.
You want health or dental treatment - you register with the doctor and dentist.
You want a mortgage or loan or credit - you give them your details.
You want to surf the Internet - you register with an ISP.
And so on....
What's the big deal ?


If you want to volunteer information for these services you can. You do not HAVE to, whereas if you have an I.D. card with fingerprints, retina scan, licences etc you don't have a choice - they already have all you information on file. There is nothing to stop them putting notes on there for other things - political affiliation, common places you visit, relatives names, friends etc... - I don't feel I have anything to hide, but I don't like anyone knowing exactly where I am, what I'm doing and where I'm likely to go next. It's a privacy thing really...

Best thing is they expect us to pay £77 for one!! What's the population of the UK at the moment - around 60 million? £77 x 60 million = £4,620 million for the government. It's like another sodding tax :mad:

I think ID cards are a good idea in threory - as long as it's done properly. I'm in agreement with others here - i.e. I don't want to have to pay for it, I don't want to have to carry it at all times, I want it to replace the drivers license, passport, etc.

I'd like to see it be used by reputable companies so that you don't have to give your address to them over the phone - and so that when you change address, you don't have to phone/write to hundreds of different places to tell them you've moved!

I've nothing to hide. If they want to add information like my relative's names, where I visit, how I surf the web, where I live, etc... so what?!? If I know your name, I can find out where you live by looking you up on the electoral roll. I can also find out more information by checking your census details. If you're not ex-directory, I can find out your phone number.

If your ISP wants to find out which sites you've visited, they can do. If your telephone line providers wants to find out who you've phones, they can do. If your credit card company wants to find out where you've been spending money, they can do. So... if the government wants to find out all these things, they probably can do already! I suspect they have better things to do than "watch" you unless you're a criminal - in which case, ID cards can only be a good thing!

:thumbsup:

Originally posted by Tony Ruscoe
I've nothing to hide. If they want to add information like my relative's names, where I visit, how I surf the web, where I live, etc... so what?!? If I know your name, I can find out where you live by looking you up on the electoral roll. I can also find out more information by checking your census details. If you're not ex-directory, I can find out your phone number.

That's not entirely true about the electoral roll - there are 2 versions kept - the main one and an edited one. The edited one is what is available to the public and you can choose to be kept off it if you so wish.

Originally posted by fnkysknky
That's not entirely true about the electoral roll - there are 2 versions kept - the main one and an edited one. The edited one is what is available to the public and you can choose to be kept off it if you so wish. Good point well made.

The government would have access to the main one even if I didn't though - and that's what I was utlimately getting at but thought that whilst I was at it, I'd point out that some information that you think is going to be kept private actually isn't.

Originally posted by Tony Ruscoe
Good point well made.

The government would have access to the main one even if I didn't though - and that's what I was utlimately getting at but thought that whilst I was at it, I'd point out that some information that you think is going to be kept private actually isn't.

I think the most disturbing aspect of this proposed scheme is the pooling of personal information, which is currently housed separately. In fact there are specific laws that prohibit agencies and govt organisations from pooling information put in place to protect civil liberties.

The information may not be secret as a whole, but combine lots of sensitive information and you can reveal secrets that were hitherto unobtainable unless you could correlate accross several unconnected sources of data.

The national ID card scheme will be backed by a heavy duty 'back end' system. Aside from the fact the tender will go to ICL/Fujitsu or Siemens, whose previous records are impeccable - there is no doubt that the information contained in this system will certainly be compromised.

With the scheme in place, corrupt officials or data thieves will only have one database to raid for all the information, rather than 10 or 12 different ones.

Your personal information, with an ID card scheme using biometrication etc, will actually be more vulnerable to abuse than less.

ID cards are an unecessary waste of money.

Bravo Phan :D

Conlusive I think... :cool:

bad idea.

it wont stop terrorism whatsoever.
so what if they find the suicide bommers I.D cardin the wreckage?

i doubt very much it will cut crime.
can you imagin a Heroin addict thinking 'o0!, i now have an I.D card, i wont rob this unfortunate soul's home to feed my addiction/craving, instead i will go out and get a job.
i dont think so.

and finally, what has happent to all the counterfits and fraudsters?
who would easily find a way arround the system, weather it would be to steel one of the retana scanners or build one, there is some clever people out there!!
or have all these people suddenly vaneshed of the earths face, without trace?

i cannot see the public benefits of these cards whatsoever
its just another tightening of the noose that sits happily arround our freedom/human rights.

£77 each they will cost us and are going to be compulsery,,,i would imagin if your card was lost/stolen a replacement would come at a cost too, yet another taxation the goverment
are enforcing upon us.
:mad:

Where'd you get that £77 from? If that's true then I've changed my mind about the idea. Fair enough, if people are stupid enough to lose them than by all means charge them, but if they are compulsory they should be issued free of charge.

Originally posted by Sidla
Where'd you get that £77 from? If that's true then I've changed my mind about the idea. Fair enough, if people are stupid enough to lose them than by all means charge them, but if they are compulsory they should be issued free of charge.
The £77 being quoted is the increased charge for passports as the plan is to issue the 2 together for the first 10 years.

A bit hard to forge an iris scan or finger print stamp. Not quite the same as forging a signature. Stealing or forging a card would not be much use unless the person happened to have an identical finger print/ iris.

The reason we need ID cards apparently is because of the villians, fraudsters, illegal immigrants etc etc. These are among the same group of ruffians who Blair was to impose 'on spot' fines and march them to the nearest cash machine!

Perhaps the House of Commons tea boy has had a whisper in Blunketts ear that these people have absolutely no intention of buying an ID card! So what does David do? He brings the ID cards in through the back door by building them in with passports and driving licences at a hyped up middle classes stealth tax which will increase the cost of a passport from £42 to £77 and a driving licence from £31 to £73.

A plain ID card would be available for those without a driving licence or passport for around £35.

A Government for the people and low inflation? :mad: :confused:

Originally posted by t020
A bit hard to forge an iris scan or finger print stamp. Not quite the same as forging a signature. Stealing or forging a card would not be much use unless the person happened to have an identical finger print/ iris.

It's stored as a digital representation - it's simple to forge.

Originally posted by fnkysknky
It's stored as a digital representation - it's simple to forge. We were talking about this at work the other day. Anything that's digital will always come down to 0s and 1s at the end of the day. Fair enough, it might be encrypted in several ways, but if something can be decrypted by one person, it can also be decrypted by another if they try hard enough / have the resources.

It's just all about risk I guess. Minimize the risk and it will work probably 99.99% of the time.

I have also discovered they will be made compulsory for foreign nationals living in Britain by 2006.

As a foreign national I will keep you all informed of my progress in rendering the card useless.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
I have also discovered they will be made compulsory for foreign nationals living in Britain by 2006.

As a foreign national I will keep you all informed of my progress in rendering the card useless.

That sounds like terrorism to me!

Originally posted by Abby
I hope t020 is right - in Labour being kicked out of power at the next election, if nothing else ;) And you think the Torys won't exploit them.
Have you taken leave of your senses, a Shiregreen-er a Tory.
I'd keep that quiet Abby round there or they will have your gutts for garters.:P

I always wondered what would happen if you were sat at a traffic lights with a camera on when an ambulance came rushingforward, forcing you to go through a red light and pull out of the way making the camera flash.

Would you still get fined and points?

Originally posted by Tony Ruscoe
Good point well made.

The government would have access to the main one even if I didn't though - and that's what I was utlimately getting at but thought that whilst I was at it, I'd point out that some information that you think is going to be kept private actually isn't.
As it stands the government doesn't have access to electoral rolls. Electoral rolls are held on local authority databases and are protected by the data protection act. In fact, there are many circumstances in which it would even be illegal for internal departments within the same local authority to share information it holds about people.

This of course doesn't mean the police, MI5 or whoever can't ever obtain information about you from LA's or other organisations, it just means they can't do it (legally) without good cause.

It is this protection that we will lose if all our information is held centrally by government. Would they misuse it though? Of course they would! The temption would be too great... my precious!

Originally posted by alchresearch
That sounds like terrorism to me!
heh heh, nah

I accidentally carry the card into the MRI scanner - zap!

Or the piezo ignition unit from a disposable should burn the chip out, and a nice powerful magnet to wipe the stripe. Still looks ok, but doesn't work. Scan that you schmucks.

On balance I am not happy with ID cards

I dont mind having a document that proves who I am when needed, indeed I already have a stack of them I could show you
i. a birth certificate
ii. a driving licence
iii. a passport
iv. various library cards and similar, some with a photo on

PRO
On that basis I dont mind having an ID card, it would even be useful for people who dont drive or travel abroad and who therefore dont have a passport or driving licence. So, if it starts off as a voluntary card that you can opt in to, I wont object.

CON
But if it becomes compulsory I will be cross because I can already prove who I am over and over again.

PRO
I dont always carry my cards and papers around with me, sometimes I am just nipping out to the shop with my purse and I havent got my bag with me. If the ID card can be left at home and produced later that will be fine.

CON
However if I am supposed to have it on me at all times then I will be very unhappy because I would have to change the way I live my life. (And how would naturists manage?)

BIGGEST CON
My biggest fear about ID cards is that if they were compulsory, the establishment and in particularly the police, would use it as an excuse to stop and search people who were black or looked like a Kosovan ( ;) )
"I just want to see your ID card". It would become a tool to menace and oppress people.

Hundreds of years ago I drove a mark I Ford Escort, a model which was notoriously easy to steal. I used to get pulled up by the police an average of twice a week and asked to produce my docs in the police station, not because of how I drove but because of what I drove. The police figured that young drivers in Escorts had a good chance of being car thieves so they pulled me over regularly. We know what they think about our comrades from overseas, exactly the same thing would happen.

I dont yet see the point of them - what value is it to society? If nobody ever asks to see my card, what use is it, and if they are asking to see it, why will that be? When they can manage now without one?

I am waiting to understand.

Also I watched a TV documentary the other night where they forged an ID card with fingerprints (they lifted them off a glass in a pub and did things with liquid adhesive ...) and they also obtained David Blunkett's birth certificate legally from the Records Office and had a driving licence made up for him, properly, at the DVLC but with the journalists photo on. And this is a blind man, with a famous name, yet still no-one twigged at the DVLC.

So if they can forge them now, they will always be able to.

So if they wont work and I cant see what the point of them is, then I dont want them.

I am going to take a hell of a lot of persuading

And finally, speaking personally, I like to think I do have a few secrets to hide, most of us do dont we? surely none of us are entirely blameless or without skeletons? I dont want everyone knowing everything about me. It is bad enough that CCTV follows my every move down the street....

Belle - well said!! Sometimes I don't even need to type the words for them to be printed anyway ;)

Originally posted by t020
A bit hard to forge an iris scan or finger print stamp. Not quite the same as forging a signature. Stealing or forging a card would not be much use unless the person happened to have an identical finger print/ iris.
It's not the forging of iris scans or finger prints - it's the fact that both will be on a data base permenantly and that people could steal them from said database... And have you never seen demolition man???!!

Originally posted by Belle
BIGGEST CON
My biggest fear about ID cards is that if they were compulsory, the establishment and in particularly the police, would use it as an excuse to stop and search people who were black or looked like a Kosovan ( ;) )
"I just want to see your ID card". It would become a tool to menace and oppress people.

They do that anyway...