This is following on from my Love to be love to hate posts, and was advised to start a new thread
It's strange then isn't it that black professional women outnumber thier male counterparts by 10 to 1. This has not happened by coincidence thier must be a reason why people from ethnic minority backgrounds do badly at school and their working lives.
Is it possible to debate this subject without getting all politically correct?
There are race based issues in this country that do apply to specific groups, so please don't be so short sited as to think people and their issues are all the same.
I am also fully aware of the fact that the majority white population also has the 'chav' phenonemom, the reasons this has come about are likely to be different then those of other races.
In this country we are now paying for the liberalism of those in power in the 70's who had this wonderful idea that all people were equal and should be treated as such.
Strange then looking at the state of education that the government wants to create centre's of excellence so people of school age can do something that suits their abilities.
Is this because they have realised that peoples needs and abilities are different?
Anyone who wants a serious debate please reply

Originally posted by LornaF
This is following on from my Love to be love to hate posts, and was advised to start a new thread
It's strange then isn't it that black professional women outnumber thier male counterparts by 10 to 1. This has not happened by coincidence thier must be a reason why people from ethnic minority backgrounds do badly at school and their working lives.
Is it possible to debate this subject without getting all politically correct?
There are race based issues in this country that do apply to specific groups, so please don't be so short sited as to think people and their issues are all the same.
I am also fully aware of the fact that the majority white population also has the 'chav' phenonemom, the reasons this has come about are likely to be different then those of other races.
In this country we are now paying for the liberalism of those in power in the 70's who had this wonderful idea that all people were equal and should be treated as such.
Strange then looking at the state of education that the government wants to create centre's of excellence so people of school age can do something that suits their abilities.
Is this because they have realised that peoples needs and abilities are different?
Anyone who wants a serious debate please reply

Firstyly have you got a link to these official stats that you talk about??? I dont remember anyone surveying me. I think a lot of this has to do with the self fulfilling prophecy. No matter what anyone says I feel that it is more likely that a black male youth will be stopped for no reason than a white male youth by police. This gives black youths a bad name. Its a bit like "if they think im like tha, then i may aswell be like that".

i know a lot of young white kids who could literaly get away with murer, but if a black kid even waled the streets by himself would be stopped by police immediately

At the end of the day though, no matter what the so called stats say, you cant say that being a certain race makes you cause trouble more than another race. Race is race, it doesnt determine how you act.

Originally posted by LornaF
In this country we are now paying for the liberalism of those in power in the 70's who had this wonderful idea that all people were equal and should be treated as such.

Nice start then I got to this bit, a typical right wing, hang 'em and flog 'em reaction to any problem. So I thought, not much point in a debate when the originator has already made their mind up on the causes of a problem.

Nice, this is the sort of matierial that you would find on nick at night!

max I believe lorna F is half afro carribean, so its not just in built prejudice here.

I see Max has put his big foot in the right place again....

Lorna, I have lived in Africa etc over the past 25 years or so...your facts are to my own personal knowledge as correct as you have written them.

In the UK ...it has been well publicised that young black boys are lagging behind in education for some reason.
I think that one possible cause could be the social pressures of fitting in and belonging .....( most times it is the wrong crowd that they end up belonging to)

The racist issues that we all hear about are not as prolific as we are led to believe but this has added another dimension to the problems that these children face as they grow up as a minority in a school that has a majority of other races.

Women tend to work a lot harder for what they want and are normally achievers through great sacrifice, either family or social life.
Men...are not willing to give up the social life with friends as opposed to sitting at home or in a group studying or learning to do something for the future.
This is however, not only associated with people of a particular race.....

One member has mentioned that a black <<prefers to call them brown) person is more likely to be picked up by the police than a white person, again.....I see your thread going with a race card and cries of right wing ideals and opinions.

This is not the case!.....The percentage of whites stopped and searched per capita of population was higher than that of brown people.

Brown people have however been involved in more Shootings and Knifings than whites over the past decade so the stop and search may seem to be aimed at the brown population for that one particular reason but in reality is not!.

Originally posted by Delboy3


This is not the case!.....The percentage of whites stopped and searched per capita of population was higher than that of brown people.

Brown people have however been involved in more Shootings and Knifings than whites over the past decade so the stop and search may seem to be aimed at the brown population for that one particular reason but in reality is not!.

I hear what you are saying, but once again, people are using figures without any backing up of these figures.

Im using personal experience. In all the areas of lived in or been to, the police will ALWAYS stop a person of colour rather than one who appears to be white.

And even if the case of there being more people of colour involved in shootings, then whats that got to do with them getting stopped more than white people. No one seems to say anything about the majority of paedophiles being white or the majority of rapists being white. so why does it matter.

Lorna I am currently studying for an exam tomorow on exactly the issues you talk about!

Can I suggest that if you want to know the history of race relations in this country, and see some research about the different achievement levels of ethnic minorities in education and employment that you read either of these books:

The Future of multi-ethnic Britain by Bhikhu Parekh

Racial disadvantage and ethnic diversity in Britain by Andrew Pilkington

or for a more light hearted approach 'Who do we think we are' by Yasmin Alibhai-Brown

All are excellent introductions to the subject and can be found in most good libraries including shef central and shef uni, also on amazon or in blackwells.

There is a wealth of research on these topics and too much diversity of findings to put into this little box I'm typing in!

Lastly Carl whilst I'm not accusing lorna of anything I resent your implication that only white people can be prejudiced!

Originally posted by spyro2000
No one seems to say anything about the majority of paedophiles being white or the majority of rapists being white. so why does it matter.

And where is your source for those claims? In terms of proportion of total race population, I'd guess that blacks are higher than whites, although this could be biased and discriminative press coverage. It would be nice to see *the facts*.

Originally posted by t020
And where is your source for those claims? In terms of proportion of total race population, I'd guess that blacks are higher than whites, although this could be biased and discriminative press coverage. It would be nice to see *the facts*.

Yes I want to see the facts also. I dont know where people get all these "facts" from, I certainly havent seen any, and would like to see stats. I dont claim to know the real true figures. But no matter what the figures are, im sure that race doesnt have anything to do with the type of person you are.

Originally posted by spyro2000


And even if the case of there being more people of colour involved in shootings, then whats that got to do with them getting stopped more than white people. No one seems to say anything about the majority of paedophiles being white or the majority of rapists being white. so why does it matter.
I do believe that you have answered your own question however I would just like to say that if you take rapes etc and put them in different population groups/areas, you will find that your statement regarding whites having more rapists is not factual.

What you cannot do is take a percentage of something that is in reality a majority population then state that there are more of these types of crimes committed by one race.

If you take the numbers of the different races and then work out your percentages by the individual numbers.......I am sure that you will see a difference as to what your statement implies.


And....If you can understand what I have just posted.....then you have cracked it!

Originally posted by Delboy3
I do believe that you have answered your own question however I would just like to say that if you take rapes etc and put them in different population groups/areas, you will find that your statement regarding whites having more rapists is not factual.

What you cannot do is take a percentage of something that is in reality a majority population then state that there are more of these types of crimes committed by one race.

If you take the numbers of the different races and then work out your percentages by the individual numbers.......I am sure that you will see a difference as to what your statement implies.


And....If you can understand what I have just posted.....then you have cracked it!

all fair comments. But the point I am trying to make is that colour has nthing to do with it. If someone is born black, doesnt automatically make them a criminal in the making.

as for the figures, yes I see where you are coming from. Im sure that in a country like lets take somewhere like Ethiopia for example. I bet there is hardly any white people there ( I do not know, its just an example), so if the white person that lived there commited murder, then surely when the stats came out it would show that compared to population size that white people where the biggest murderers.

Am I making sense or am I babblling on now?

Originally posted by spyro2000
all fair comments. But the point I am trying to make is that colour has nthing to do with it. If someone is born black, doesnt automatically make them a criminal in the making.

as for the figures, yes I see where you are coming from. Im sure that in a country like lets take somewhere like Ethiopia for example. I bet there is hardly any white people there ( I do not know, its just an example), so if the white person that lived there commited murder, then surely when the stats came out it would show that compared to population size that white people where the biggest murderers.

Am I making sense or am I babblling on now?

I agree with you...I am not making out that one race is any better than the other but there are more shootings etc carried out by people of one race more than another......
I have given my opinion in answer to the statement that was made, playing the race card regarding stop and search.
In reply it was stated that...so what if these people are involved in more shootings and knifings......THe question has it's own logical answer regarding the stop and search situation but the fact remains that the number of people stopped and searched does not relate to one colour or particular race of people more than the other.

Originally posted by Delboy3
I agree with you...I am not making out that one race is any better than the other but there are more shootings etc carried out by people of one race more than another......
I have given my opinion in answer to the statement that was made, playing the race card regarding stop and search.
In reply it was stated that...so what if these people are involved in more shootings and knifings......THe question has it's own logical answer regarding the stop and search situation but the fact remains that the number of people stopped and searched does not relate to one colour or particular race of people more than the other.

Yeah agreed.
as regards to my comment of "so what if more people of colour...", well what i actually meant was that as far as I am aware (once again I do not know for definite so dont ask for figures) it isnt that there is more people of colour commiting these crimes, but a higher percent compared to the total of the population. So in essence, there is probably a higher number of white people commiting these crimes, but a higher percentage of people of colour compared to their total population in this country, So I dont see why people of colour should for example be stopped more in the street, when going by what I have just said, would mean that you are more likely to catch a white person with a knife.

There is research on stop searches and criminal behaviour, with the methodology clearly set out so you can decide whether you believe the findings or not. Unfortunately most of it is in academic journals which you either have to access from university libraries or pay for :(

IMO this is the reason why academic research is viewed so poorly - someone will do a long study with many findings and caveats and quantifiers and detailed considered results and the press will report it as "OXFORD UNIVERSITY FINDS THAT BLACKS SHOOT MORE" or "WHITES TO BLAME FOR INDIAN UNDER-ACHIEVEMENT" or whatever!

Originally posted by spyro2000
Yeah agreed.
as regards to my comment of "so what if more people of colour...", well what i actually meant was that as far as I am aware (once again I do not know for definite so dont ask for figures) it isnt that there is more people of colour commiting these crimes, but a higher percent compared to the total of the population. So in essence, there is probably a higher number of white people commiting these crimes, but a higher percentage of people of colour compared to their total population in this country, So I dont see why people of colour should for example be stopped more in the street, when going by what I have just said, would mean that you are more likely to catch a white person with a knife.
OK! one example.....My son has been stopped several times....his car searched and himself made to feel embarrased and harrassed.

He is White!.....He is young, Drives a nice car, rides around with a few friends.

I don't think that the colour issue is relevent......The police are trying to stop violent crime, car theft and only have this option to work with.

WE all, are subject to random stops...whether it be for alchohol or other reasons.

Unfortunately Delboy3 research does point to the fact that black people (men) are stop-searched more frequently. I could post the link but you wouldn't be able to access it as you are not part of the university, and I wouldn't want to copy and paste it cos Id probably be in breach of copyright!

Of course this is just a few studies I have read. But I appreciate your comments about us all being subject to random stops.

Originally posted by Delboy3
OK! one example.....My son has been stopped several times....his car searched and himself made to feel embarrased and harrassed.

He is White!.....He is young, Drives a nice car, rides around with a few friends.

I don't think that the colour issue is relevent......The police are trying to stop violent crime, car theft and only have this option to work with.

WE all, are subject to random stops...whether it be for alchohol or other reasons.

Well Ill have to agree to disagree on the matter of stop and searches, so maybe its best to leave it there, specially seeing as the thread isnt even about that :D

But you do make some valid points

cheers

Originally posted by kathythebean
Unfortunately Delboy3 research does point to the fact that black people (men) are stop-searched more frequently. I could post the link but you wouldn't be able to access it as you are not part of the university, and I wouldn't want to copy and paste it cos Id probably be in breach of copyright!

Of course this is just a few studies I have read. But I appreciate your comments about us all being subject to random stops.

What uni are you at? would you be able to PM me the details, as I wouldnt mind a gander, cheers.

Originally posted by kathythebean
Unfortunately Delboy3 research does point to the fact that black people (men) are stop-searched more frequently. I could post the link but you wouldn't be able to access it as you are not part of the university, and I wouldn't want to copy and paste it cos Id probably be in breach of copyright!

Of course this is just a few studies I have read. But I appreciate your comments about us all being subject to random stops.

Please give the stats then for the number of whites in the UK stopped and the number of black people stopped over lets say the last 3 years....

What you are doing is lets say we have 100 whites and 10 blacks.......
3 of the blacks get picked up for search......whilst 10 whites also get picked up.

Your percentages would make it look like 30% of black people are stopped and searched whilst only 10% of the whites were subjected to a search.

Delboy the kind of research I'm talking about has taken that into account....Its not the whole number of people stopped in three years, its random samples etc.

Sorry spryo yes I'm at shef uni, will PM you tomorow when I've got a bit more time, I'm off to do some more work now!

Originally posted by kathythebean
Delboy the kind of research I'm talking about has taken that into account....Its not the whole number of people stopped in three years, its random samples etc.

Sorry spryo yes I'm at shef uni, will PM you tomorow when I've got a bit more time, I'm off to do some more work now!
OK! to take into account the millions of people that are white as opposed to the minority that is black.......are you saying that more blacks are picked up and searched than whites??
This is an interesting revelation.

It is off subject but it would be nice to hear how they get the figures when taking the whole population into context

I belive that it is a great shame for everyhuman on this planet that the INDIVIDUAL do something that the MAJORITY gets the blame for. We all bleed red blood no matter what our skin is. we are all individual and should be treated that way.

Originally posted by madowl
I belive that it is a great shame for everyhuman on this planet that the INDIVIDUAL do something that the MAJORITY gets the blame for. We all bleed red blood no matter what our skin is. we are all individual and should be treated that way.

Couldnt agree more madowl.

for example if a black person did commit a crime, it shouldnt be listed as "black man commits crime" but "man commits crime"

ooops, now awaits the onslaught of people asking why they should even mention gender lol :heyhey:

I think that because of various historical reasons to do with requiring immigrant labour, the second world war and dozens of other bits and bobs, there are plenty of places in the country where your race is an economic indicator. i.e in certain areas of the country, being an african or afro-caribbean means you are much more likely to be poor/deprived, and being a caucasian makes you more likely to be comfortable/affluent.

Property and violent crime is higher in poor communities. There may be a direct correlation between race and crime, but I bet any money you like that the causal links (if there are any) are actually economic and not genetic or racial.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
*snip*There may be a direct correlation between race and crime, but I bet any money you like that the causal links (if there are any) are actually economic and not genetic or racial.

I tend to agree with that Phan ... although I do think also that gender and culture is definitely a factor in scholastic under achievement. Therefore, possibly leading to a greater tendency to be involved in criminal activity. I think that was one of the points implied by the OP?

If anyone else has mentioned this already, please forgive me ... maybe I'm having a craft moment :)

Take a look at the prison population,its has a far higher percentage of non whites than is the current ethnic minorites of this country.
And thats because the etnnic minorities,especially the afro carribeans are more likely to commit crime than the white population.
It might not be PC but its the truth,so lets not try to hide behind some liberal PC bull,tell it how it really is.
Street crime especially muggings are mainly commited by blacks,I now await the ususal cries of racist.?

hmmm... are they more likely to investigated by the police than whites????

perhaps they are more likely to get caught because the police are prejudice (not in all cases) and therefore more likely to investigate, monitor or even stop and search on the basis of 'reasonable suspician'

besides where are you getting your information from roy could you state a source?

quick google search produced a march 2003 article http://www.cre.gov.uk/Default.aspx.locID-0hgnew03f.htm

A higher percentage of black and Asians are more likely to be living in poor areas than their white counterparts. Therefore they are more likely to commit crime. Therefore, there is a higher percentage of blacks in prison than in society (relatively)

Racism is a factor but its more economic and socio-economic.

because they are more likely to live in poor areas they are more likely to have poor schools, dirty streets, more prevalant drug iproblems, vandalism, poor heathcare, poor facilities and a lot less life chances.

its the same in the States.

Originally posted by robbie
A higher percentage of black and Asians are more likely to be living in poor areas than their white counterparts. Therefore they are more likely to commit crime. Therefore, there is a higher percentage of blacks in prison than in society (relatively)

Racism is a factor but its more economic and socio-economic.

because they are more likely to live in poor areas they are more likely to have poor schools, dirty streets, more prevalant drug iproblems, vandalism, poor heathcare, poor facilities and a lot less life chances.

its the same in the States.
I cannot accept that you can state that poor people are more likely to commit crime.
On the contrary, there are more crimes committed by middle class youths than the so called poor class.

I was bought up in a working class enviroment where at xmas we were lucky to get a piece of coal wrapped in silver paper as a present.
Youth crime was more or less unheard of as there were detterrants such as Borstal and the possibility of getting a criminal record which was at that time deemed to be a very bad situation to be in.

The youth today have no discipline and there is no detterrent for anyone not to commit a crime.

It is not through boredom or being poor that these crimes are committed....It is the lack of LAW and order, Lack of respect and no chance of going to jail scenario.

I know of a lot of Black people that have worked hard against the odds for what they want and have acheived their goals through hard work and committment.
The main problem is that a lot are content to sit on the sidelines with their hands out instead of learning and working for what they want as it is easier to steal from someone else that has done so.

Poor, Deprived?? NO! LAZY!!!!!!!

Originally posted by robbie
...

Racism is a factor but its more economic and socio-economic.

because they are more likely to live in poor areas they are more likely to have poor schools, dirty streets, more prevalant drug iproblems, vandalism, poor heathcare, poor facilities and a lot less life chances.

So poor = crime does it? I’m sure there are a lot of poor people as you describe them who would take offence at that!

Poor Schools - If everyone at these deprived under funded schools failed their exams or came out with little qualifications to their names, you can say this, but there will always be people who will be high achievers who are not held back by this!

Dirty Streets - Have you looked outside, there are lots of streets in Sheffield and the UK that are dirty ... and how exactly does a dirty street make you a criminal?

Drug Problem - Drugs are EVERYWHERE, and they permeate every part of our society. People have a choice whether or not to partake. Its not like you get a vile of crack with your giro!

Vandalism - Again its everywhere, graffiti is everywhere and just count the number or demolished bush shelters there are in town after a Friday night. Plus the main perpetrators are drunken youths of all classes coming out of pubs and clubs.

Poor healthcare - Anyone who uses the NHS has the same level of care within limits. If I go to the Northern General, I will get the same level of treatment as a hobo!

Poor facilities - like what? looking at children’s playgrounds these days, they seem to be much better equipped than when I was a nipper! You where lucky not to get maimed by something in a playground back then!

less life chances - You make your own way in this world ... if you have the getup and go, you can become what ever you want, alternatively if you want to site on your ar*e and bum off the state, you are free to do that ... its that doing nothing is easier than working!

so now it's okay to single out ethnic minorities as being more likely to commit crime but not economic background?

In this country we are now paying for the liberalism of those in power in the 70's who had this wonderful idea that all people were equal and should be treated as such.


what's your equally wonderful alternative? Make assumptions about individuals based on stereotypes and treat certain groups differently?

We are all individuals and we are all different, but we all deserve to be treat equally.

Originally posted by Cyclone
so now it's okay to single out ethnic minorities as being more likely to commit crime but not economic background?



what's your equally wonderful alternative? Make assumptions about individuals based on stereotypes and treat certain groups differently?

We are all individuals and we are all different, but we all deserve to be treat equally.
It is always nice to hear that everyone should be treated equal no matter what the circumstance.

Take for instance a youth that works hard, takes out a major loan for bettering his/her education......Spends 5 or more years studying to forge a secure future knowing full well that when they graduate that they are stuck with a bill to pay off over the same period as a mortgage..and taxes to pay for the onews that never bothered.

Then take the youth that drops out of school because he/she cannot be bothered to study and thinks of nothing more than going out with friends and having a good time.......not bothering to look for a job because they will get some form of benefit like, rent paid, council tax, Dental, Perscriptions etc...and get 50 pounds a week to spend on themselves without having to lift a finger.
The new system of paying youngsters to look for a job with a free Ipod or Xbox and 700 pounds in the pocket for just attending, so that they can now write a CV out....that has no qualifications or knowledge of the jobs on offer.


I personally would not treat anyone equal that has no intention of doing anything for themselves or living off the sweat of others.

would you be happier if I qualified that we should treat everyone equally until they give us a reason not too?

So being a lazy workshy chav is a reason to treat someone differently. Being black, white or whatever is not. The latter is discrimination, the former is forming an opinion.

Originally posted by Delboy3
I cannot accept that you can state that poor people are more likely to commit crime.
On the contrary, there are more crimes committed by middle class youths than the so called poor class.

I was bought up in a working class enviroment where at xmas we were lucky to get a piece of coal wrapped in silver paper as a present.
Youth crime was more or less unheard of as there were detterrants such as Borstal and the possibility of getting a criminal record which was at that time deemed to be a very bad situation to be in.

The youth today have no discipline and there is no detterrent for anyone not to commit a crime.

It is not through boredom or being poor that these crimes are committed....It is the lack of LAW and order, Lack of respect and no chance of going to jail scenario.

I know of a lot of Black people that have worked hard against the odds for what they want and have acheived their goals through hard work and committment.
The main problem is that a lot are content to sit on the sidelines with their hands out instead of learning and working for what they want as it is easier to steal from someone else that has done so.

Poor, Deprived?? NO! LAZY!!!!!!!

sorry but I've studied this and it is right. I understand your point but poor people are more likely to commit crime (if they live in poor areas). Also the crime is generally focussed in poor areas.

could it possibly be something to do with the feeling of self worth?

Originally posted by serapis
So poor = crime does it? I’m sure there are a lot of poor people as you describe them who would take offence at that!

Poor Schools - If everyone at these deprived under funded schools failed their exams or came out with little qualifications to their names, you can say this, but there will always be people who will be high achievers who are not held back by this!

Dirty Streets - Have you looked outside, there are lots of streets in Sheffield and the UK that are dirty ... and how exactly does a dirty street make you a criminal?

Drug Problem - Drugs are EVERYWHERE, and they permeate every part of our society. People have a choice whether or not to partake. Its not like you get a vile of crack with your giro!

Vandalism - Again its everywhere, graffiti is everywhere and just count the number or demolished bush shelters there are in town after a Friday night. Plus the main perpetrators are drunken youths of all classes coming out of pubs and clubs.

Poor healthcare - Anyone who uses the NHS has the same level of care within limits. If I go to the Northern General, I will get the same level of treatment as a hobo!

Poor facilities - like what? looking at children’s playgrounds these days, they seem to be much better equipped than when I was a nipper! You where lucky not to get maimed by something in a playground back then!

less life chances - You make your own way in this world ... if you have the getup and go, you can become what ever you want, alternatively if you want to site on your ar*e and bum off the state, you are free to do that ... its that doing nothing is easier than working!

go and study some facts from lots of different countires. It is all the same. If you live in a bad socio economic environment you are more likely to commit crime. cut the PC rubbish 9and I used to be like you0 and embrace the facts.

If you grow up in deprivation you have a lot less life chances then those in a good area. Someone mentioned self0fullfilling prophecy and its true.

Kids in deprived areas look at futur life look at the probable future and realise that they don't stand a chance.

please, just go and read some studies and this is backed up all around the world.

Originally posted by serapis
So poor = crime does it? I’m sure there are a lot of poor people as you describe them who would take offence at that!

Poor Schools - If everyone at these deprived under funded schools failed their exams or came out with little qualifications to their names, you can say this, but there will always be people who will be high achievers who are not held back by this!

Dirty Streets - Have you looked outside, there are lots of streets in Sheffield and the UK that are dirty ... and how exactly does a dirty street make you a criminal?

Drug Problem - Drugs are EVERYWHERE, and they permeate every part of our society. People have a choice whether or not to partake. Its not like you get a vile of crack with your giro!

Vandalism - Again its everywhere, graffiti is everywhere and just count the number or demolished bush shelters there are in town after a Friday night. Plus the main perpetrators are drunken youths of all classes coming out of pubs and clubs.

Poor healthcare - Anyone who uses the NHS has the same level of care within limits. If I go to the Northern General, I will get the same level of treatment as a hobo!

Poor facilities - like what? looking at children’s playgrounds these days, they seem to be much better equipped than when I was a nipper! You where lucky not to get maimed by something in a playground back then!

less life chances - You make your own way in this world ... if you have the getup and go, you can become what ever you want, alternatively if you want to site on your ar*e and bum off the state, you are free to do that ... its that doing nothing is easier than working!

and a point for point reply.

1. they atre the monority.

2.most areas have dirty streets. However a dirty street in Fullwood is so far removed from one in Parsons Cross.

3.where do big dealers live? bad areas. where can you buy drugs on the corner? bad areas. drugs are everywhere but you'll find that serious drugs 9crack/heroin) are situated in bad areas. I can walk out my door and buy dope, speed and e's easily. To buy heroin or smack is a whole different ball game.

go and look at Crookes/Fullwood/Dore/Totley high street and then go and look at Hillsborough, Burngreave/Parsons Cross and Souther and tell me they look the same.

4. rubbish. Hospitalwise you are right. Doctorwise you aren't/

5 again , go and compare a "rec" in Crookes and Parsons Cross.

6. Rubbish, ask people from deprived backrounds if they have the same chance of going to Oxbrudge as those from rich families.

Originally posted by onedizzybird
could it possibly be something to do with the feeling of self worth?

yes, a lot.

Originally posted by robbie
If you grow up in deprivation you have a lot less life chances then those in a good area. Someone mentioned self0fullfilling prophecy and its true.

Robbie, I'm sure you mean well, but I can't agree with your views. If you believe everything you read on the forum, my friends and I went to schools in the worst areas of the city. Yet those of us who studied hard became doctors, lawyers, teachers and IT engineers.

However, the ones who messed about and chased girls ended up either in prison for dealing drugs, or addicted to them, working in takeaways or driving taxis.

We all had the same 'life chances'. Why did some succeed and other fail? Because the ones who succeeded were encouraged by their parents to do well - that's probably why more children with middle class parents do well in their studies; it has nothing to do with the cleanliness of the streets :)

Originally posted by robbie
Kids in deprived areas look at futur life look at the probable future and realise that they don't stand a chance.

Not true! When my friends and I were at school, we didn't sit and sulk because we thought education was pointless. We did well because we knew that it was the best way to improve ourselves and our status in life.

I worry that too many low-achieving Asians and Blacks are locked in a 'victim' mentality where they feel that things will never improve but unless they break out of that, then their situation will not get better. I will admit to feeling annoyed when certain members of our communities are provided with expensive benefits such as housing grants etc. Perhaps if these same people had studied harder and made more of a contribution to society, then they wouldn't need to be given handouts so often.

But I suppose Labour Councillors will do anything to appease their constituents during a local election :roll:

Yes, I'm very bitter.

Originally posted by LornaF
There are race based issues in this country that do apply to specific groups, so please don't be so short-sighted as to think people and their issues are all the same.


LornaF raises an important point here about race-based issues.
There are, proportionally, a greater number of black people admitted to psychiatric hospital. Again, proportionally, there are a greater number of black boys who leave school without educational qualifications. There is no doubt that these are race based issues.

The government are currently undertaking some work in relation to the high numbers of black people being admitted to psychiatric hospital. The Commission for Racial Equality have recently been openly debating whether black boys should, for some lessons, be educated separately. Whilst this particular suggestion might be unpalatable, what is needed is a wider recognition of these types of problems, and a debate on the possible solutions.

Originally posted by Abdul

However, the ones who messed about and chased girls ended up either in prison for dealing drugs, or addicted to them, working in takeaways or driving taxis.

I happen to think that driving a taxi is quite a skilfull occupation.

Originally posted by Abdul

But I suppose Labour Councillors will do anything to appease their constituents during a local election

Care to elucidate?

Originally posted by redrobbo
I happen to think that driving a taxi is quite a skilfull occupation.

Sir, I went to school with some of these people. They do the job because nobody else wants to employ them, nor do they have much in the way of qualifications.


Originally posted by redrobbo
Care to elucidate?

There are rumours that Labour councillors provide benefits to ethnic communities (easy access to housing grants, or allowing relatives from overseas) so the councillors will be guaranteed the support of the community at the next local election.

I believe it's called 'Bridging the Gap' ;)

(Sorry, I'm being very cynical tonight)

Originally posted by Abdul
Robbie, I'm sure you mean well, but I can't agree with your views. If you believe everything you read on the forum, my friends and I went to schools in the worst areas of the city. Yet those of us who studied hard became doctors, lawyers, teachers and IT engineers.

However, the ones who messed about and chased girls ended up either in prison for dealing drugs, or addicted to them, working in takeaways or driving taxis.

We all had the same 'life chances'. Why did some succeed and other fail? Because the ones who succeeded were encouraged by their parents to do well - that's probably why more children with middle class parents do well in their studies; it has nothing to do with the cleanliness of the streets :)



Not true! When my friends and I were at school, we didn't sit and sulk because we thought education was pointless. We did well because we knew that it was the best way to improve ourselves and our status in life.

I worry that too many low-achieving Asians and Blacks are locked in a 'victim' mentality where they feel that things will never improve but unless they break out of that, then their situation will not get better. I will admit to feeling annoyed when certain members of our communities are provided with expensive benefits such as housing grants etc. Perhaps if these same people had studied harder and made more of a contribution to society, then they wouldn't need to be given handouts so often.

But I suppose Labour Councillors will do anything to appease their constituents during a local election :roll:

Yes, I'm very bitter.

you and your frineds may well have but I'm talking overall percentages here.

I'm not for one second saying that the fact that someone grew up in poverty in a bad area prevents them from succeeding. In fact in some cases its propbably more of a spur to succeed. Howvere, overall I belive my argument sticks.

Originally posted by robbie
I'm not for one second saying that the fact that someone grew up in poverty in a bad area prevents them from succeeding. In fact in some cases its propbably more of a spur to succeed.

Unfortunately, I think it's just an excuse for many to fail!

Originally posted by redrobbo
LornaF raises an important point here about race-based issues.
There are, proportionally, a greater number of black people admitted to psychiatric hospital. Again, proportionally, there are a greater number of black boys who leave school without educational qualifications. There is no doubt that these are race based issues.

The government are currently undertaking some work in relation to the high numbers of black people being admitted to psychiatric hospital. The Commission for Racial Equality have recently been openly debating whether black boys should, for some lessons, be educated separately. Whilst this particular suggestion might be unpalatable, what is needed is a wider recognition of these types of problems, and a debate on the possible solutions.

I think that if all cultures were completely mixed in all secotrs 9areas/wealth etc) there would be equal rates of all problems between cultures.

I completey and utterly disagree with same faith schooling. The people I know who have the hardest time integrating in adult life have been to restrictive schools 9same faith/religion or private schools)

Originally posted by Abdul

There are rumours that Labour councillors provide benefits to ethnic communities (easy access to housing grants, or allowing relatives from overseas) so the councillors will be guaranteed the support of the community at the next local election.

I believe it's called 'Bridging the Gap' ;)

(Sorry, I'm being very cynical tonight)

Thank you for your reply Abdul.

Please note that government departments determine eligibility for benefits, not councillors. Similarly, government departments determine the admission of overseas relatives, not councillors.

The Labour controlled city council has a policy of Closing The Gap. The aim of this is to improve the standards in housing, education, health inequalities, etc., in the more deprived areas of our city.

As a (Labour) councillor myself, I am happy to dispel these rumours you've heard.

Red

Its been good reading this thread, some interesting mixed views and comments.

Being black myself, I dont particularly conform to this 'black sterotype'. I was brought up by a working class family in an ethnic minority area of Birmingham. And from personal experience I think that the area I grew up in had a lot to do with the outcoe of a lot of the youths. I grew up watchin many blacks and asians get into trouble, and I also used to get involved in a lot of 'bad stuff'. But as someone posted earlier, I personally took a look around me and made my own decision that this kind of lifestyle is wrong, and that no matter what colour you are, you can get somewhere in life. I am doing extremely well now and am on the way to becoming a secondary school teacher hopefully, yet I see that the vast majority of my friends still living the self fulfilled prophecty and getting into trouble. But saying that, after I got accepted into uni, I saw a lot of the other black and asian kids in my area turn their life around. It seems like it took just one of us to make the breakthrough, now a whole heap of others are following suit and have realised they can do something decent with their lives.

p.s. sorry about the bad grammar and lack of paragraphs, but im very tired and not feeling too well and need to get to bes asap.

Spyro,,, May I say .WELL DONE!!!

As you have so rightly posted, the opportunity is there for everyone to do well should they so wish to.
This situation is not only about Ethnic minorities though!

White youths also have the same situations that you have been brought up in and living in so called bad areas, (as one forummer mentioned)

How do these areas become bad?
It is the very people that move into these areas that make the area like they are.
They are the ones that litter, have little or no regard for others property.

Some people could argue that these people do not have the education to succeed yet there are free courses available to anyone out of work, If they wanted to get out of the benefits scenario they could do, but that would mean working 40 hours or more a week to get less free cash to spend than what they are already getting sat on their rear ends.


I grew up in Fox Hill and Parsons Cross and my children grew up on the flower estate, One person has already commented that parson cross is a bad area or deprived in some way.

My parents were poor but encouraged us to do something with our lives to which I did the same with my children.

Some people use the word deprived in here yet do not know what deprivation is, nor have they experienced it.
I have not seen anyone unable to clothe their children or not have a roof over their heads and no food in the house.
I do see a lot of parents that have children, do not work, yet spend their handouts down at the local pub 7 nights a week.
Something that even I cannot afford to do!

Again, There is no difference as to the education that is taught to one race than the other.
All children have it in themselves the ability to succeed should they wish to do so.
The drugs situation is personal to who ever decides to take them.
They are not forced by anything other than pressure from their friends and thus have the ability to decline the offer if they dont want to take them.

Instead of blaming everything on the so called poor people...you should blame the benefits system that has created this situation...
Do away with the benefits and people would have to work and strive to get qualifications.....as there would be nothing for them if they did not!

it's a viscous cycle though. Parents were failed by (or they failed) in the education system.
They do nothing to help or encourage their own children, who procede to fail themselves.

Generally the people who drop out of the system like this will end up on the lower end of the socio economic scale. So we now have poor, poorly educated people raising children with no encouragement to work hard at school.

Of course being poor these people can only afford to live in certain areas, so the cheaper areas get a large proportion of these people.

Sometimes someone breaks out and makes it despite their parents lack of interest. Or their parents break the mold and encourage the children despite not having been well served themselves by education. But for most they stay stuck in the cycle.
Given the generally lower se groupings of some minority ethnicities you could attribute poor school results to that, rather than the other way around.
Identifying cause and effect in these things is very difficult as a myriad factors are all contributing to the outcome.

Originally posted by Cyclone
Sometimes someone breaks out and makes it despite their parents lack of interest.
That really is jargon, e-mail some of this stuff to Nick Margerrison I'm sure he would be has happy as a pig in a blanket he heard some of this matierial!
I say...
Good topic, So far...

jar·gon ( P ) Pronunciation Key (järgn)
n.
1) Nonsensical, incoherent, or meaningless talk.
2) A hybrid language or dialect; a pidgin.
3) The specialized or technical language of a trade, profession, or similar group. See Synonyms at dialect.
4) Speech or writing having unusual or pretentious vocabulary, convoluted phrasing, and vague meaning.


which are you accusing me of using, and what makes you think that. It looks to me like a fairly simple and straightforward sentence about the poverty trap.

Originally posted by Cyclone
which are you accusing me of using, and what makes you think that. It looks to me like a fairly simple and straightforward sentence about the poverty trap.

Sorry o burst the bubble here but this thread was about un achieving black kids in school.

we have all gone off subject in one way or another but untill now the debate and opinions have been very informative from both worlds.

Lets try to keep the debate on an even keel and do like we have all tried to do by having a civilised debate on the issues at hand.

Originally posted by nickatnight
That really is jargon, e-mail some of this stuff to Nick Margerrison I'm sure he would be has happy as a pig in a blanket he heard some of this matierial!

No need. He's a user (of the forum, natch)

Check posts by username 'Nicholarse'

from the horse's mouth, as it were.

Originally posted by Delboy3
Sorry o burst the bubble here but this thread was about un achieving black kids in school.

we have all gone off subject in one way or another but untill now the debate and opinions have been very informative from both worlds.

Lets try to keep the debate on an even keel and do like we have all tried to do by having a civilised debate on the issues at hand.

I believe that I was very much still on topic.
Children from non white ethnic backgrounds have a worse academic record than white children. Reasons postulated include that white people are inherently smarter, which is a conclusion drawn from flawed data, the IQ test.
I suggested (or someone else did) that black children specifically were likely to be from a lower socioeconomic group than white children (on average of course). Nobody seems to disagree strongly with that.
We then extend the argument to be that children from poor familes on average do less well at school.
You can think of it as a cycle, or the poverty trap. I then expanded on that in case anyone didn't understand.
And finally I was accused of using 'Jargon' in what I thought was a pretty straightforward sentence. Happy?

Originally posted by Cyclone
I believe that I was very much still on topic.
Children from non white ethnic backgrounds have a worse academic record than white children. Reasons postulated include that white people are inherently smarter, which is a conclusion drawn from flawed data, the IQ test.
I suggested (or someone else did) that black children specifically were likely to be from a lower socioeconomic group than white children (on average of course). Nobody seems to disagree strongly with that.
We then extend the argument to be that children from poor familes on average do less well at school.
You can think of it as a cycle, or the poverty trap. I then expanded on that in case anyone didn't understand.
And finally I was accused of using 'Jargon' in what I thought was a pretty straightforward sentence. Happy?

I thought you made perfect sense Cyclone. dont quite see what the problem is.

also bear in mind that children from East Asian backgrounds have a better educational performance than white children (on average)

This is often put down to family pressure to succeed and work ethic.

Great to hear opinions so far. I think there's a whole mixture of issues that make up our current social failings in the UK, some which are unique to certain groups whether they be ethnic minority , caucasion, refugee
All the words above desricbe someone who could belong to
any one of 100's of races
I belieive its important to understand the issues that arise and where they come from or you risk pushing people into the aforementioned 'self prophecy'.
I believe it is dangerous to see everone as the same, as the issues that a person may have are individual and be more specific to their race than others.
It's a shame when individuals fall into stereotypes rather than try to rise above them when there are so many harworking people out there
I think we should be proud to live in a democratic, fair country that is Britain and should also want to strive to be to belong to a hardworking and respectful British Asian, British Yemini, British Carribbean, etc community.
Everyone has their prejudices, so people must realise that their actions may have effects on the long terms views of certain races as a whole, and i don't think that's fair one those who work hard to contribute to soceity.

well put.....And I applaud and respect you for getting out of the rut yourself