whats it about?

Originally posted by Swan_Vesta
Nice one Joe - I'll have a look in the Oxfam bookshop on West st this weekend. I've been thinking about reading it for a while but haven't got round to doing anything about it.

why don't we have a big get together and have a reading session perhaps we could do it once a month and take turns in reading....:thumbsup:

Now Kirky,

Are you taking the michael now? :)

Apologies if I get this wrong, but here goes....

It's the Word of God as revealed to Mohammed and forms the basis of the Islamic faith. It's about 1400 years old.

Islam is the third of the Abrahamic faiths, the other two being Judaism and Christianity. Followers of all three faiths are known colectively as 'Children of the Book'.

There are many similarites between the three faiths, the main differences between Islam and Christianity in religious terms being, I believe :

In Islam, Christ is respected as a Prophet, rather than as the Son of God. Mohammed is seen as the last Prophet, and the Koran as the final instructions to man from God.

In Islam, there is no resurrection.

Souls of the righteous go straight to Heaven in Islam, rather than having to wait until the 'end times' as is the case in Christianity.

There are many other differences, naturally, but I think this is the essential detail.

And apologies to anyone if I've mis-represented their faith!

Joe

i read it online kirky, cant remeber the link or owt but ya might find it if ya google.

no disrespect ment or owt like that but..... :suspect: :gag: @ the rules n wot not wimmins have to follow. I THINK NOT !!!

Originally posted by JoePritchard
Souls of the righteous go straight to Heaven in Islam, rather than having to wait until the 'end times' as is the case in Christianity.


I thought (I don't actually "believe") souls went straight to heaven in Christianity too, where do they go then if it's not to Heaven (or Hell) ?

For those of you who are serious, I can give you a contact who will provide you with an arabic/english translated Koran, for a donation rather then a price.

If you need the details drop me a PM.

At the risk of sounding like a complete bore;

Wouldn't it be nice if a thread about the Koran had more informative posts?

I'm not religous myself but I try to show a bit of reverence towards other people's beliefs when the occassion demands it.

Before you ask, no I haven't read it nor understand it. I wish I did, and out of 25 replies so far only one has actually furthered my understanding the subject of the thread.

Deavon - I totally agree with your post. I believe people should respect each other and the different religions in this world.

I have an English version of the Koran - purchased from Waterstones I believe. I pick it up from time to time but do find it quite a difficult read. What I found easier to read was a book about Islam and it's teachings with supporting quotes from the Koran which simplified it greatly.

I'm not Muslim but like to understand how and why people of other faiths believe what they believe, and where the beliefs came from.

Originally posted by JoePritchard
In Islam, there is no resurrection.

Souls of the righteous go straight to Heaven in Islam, rather than having to wait until the 'end times' as is the case in Christianity.

Many thanks, Joe, for one of the few sensible posts on this subject.

However, Muslims do indeed believe in resurrection; This Day of Resurrection is mentioned extensively throughout the Koran (see Chapters 83, 84 and 101 for a quick reference) and is known by several names including the Day of Judgement and the Day of Reckoning. It is the time when God will raise up mankind and judge us on the deeds we performed in the Dunya (worldly life).

As I understand it, one is ideally supposed to read it in the Arabic. And not the modern stuff. Because, as the word of the Prophet(PBUH) accurately handed down over generations, one would not want to misunderstand the points in His teachings.
I guess if you're interested, you need arabic classes. Or talk to members of the islamic faith.

A couple of books that give a wider insight into Islam and the development of Muslim culture are Ruthven's 'Islam : A very short introduction' and Albert Hourani's 'A History of the Arab Peoples'.

The latter is a very good introduction to the wider history and culture of the Arab nations.

As to the destination of souls in Christianity after death, in Roman Catholicism the souls of the dead who don't go to Hell go to Purgatory, an intermediate place between this world and Heaven.

Joe

Originally posted by ferret
As I understand it, one is ideally supposed to read it in the Arabic. And not the modern stuff. Because, as the word of the Prophet(PBUH) accurately handed down over generations, one would not want to misunderstand the points in His teachings.
I guess if you're interested, you need arabic classes. Or talk to members of the islamic faith.

It would help to understand Arabic, but it is by no means a prerequisite.

As a language, Arabic is still spoken today (unlike, say, Aramaic, which Jesus spoke) so Arabic to English translations of the Koran can be very accurate.

The translations by Abdullah Yusuf Ali have been highly recommended to me.

Originally posted by ferret
As I understand it, one is ideally supposed to read it in the Arabic. And not the modern stuff. Because, as the word of the Prophet(PBUH) accurately handed down over generations, one would not want to misunderstand the points in His teachings.
I guess if you're interested, you need arabic classes. Or talk to members of the islamic faith.

Yes, that's my understanding; I guess my own interest as a Christian is to learn more about my fellow man.

However, I do believe that I've gained some insight in to and understanding of Islam from my reading of the Koran in English.

Abdul - yes, I remembered that when I returned to this thread this evening. Apologies!

I hope I didn't make TOO many mistakes!

Joe

I know I was having a laugh earlier but I would NEVER disrespect another persons beliefs.

Originally posted by Abdul
It would help to understand Arabic, but it is by no means a prerequisite.

As a language, Arabic is still spoken today (unlike, say, Aramaic, which Jesus spoke) so Arabic to English translations of the Koran can be very accurate.

The translations by Abdullah Yusuf Ali have been highly recommended to me.


I agree, with those that I have spoken to, the translation is probably the most accurate of all religeons. Apologies to those who may not agree.
The very idea that corrections can be made in mosque by worshippers as Qu'ran is being read, is to me quite something.
It would indeed lead to the most accurate thread all the way back through history.
My feeling is though, that over time, misrepresentations could occur. This in unqualified hands is potentially where the problems would occur.
I feel its vital to spread a message to all faiths in whatever format is acceptable, BUT with the attached message that the main arguments are common to Islam, Christianity and Judaism.
The details are very difficult, I believe, to bring over to a novice believer of the faith.
And I speak as a non-muslim.
Also, I have been told of 'Golden Chains' that are keepers of information, making certain that there can be no errors. Do you have any information on this?

I went down to the second hand bookshop at the weekend as planned and enquired if they had any copies of the koran but unfortunatley the had sold their only copy earlier that week.

On the upside, the very helpful chap behind the counter was a muslim and told me to go to the mosque where they'd be happy to give me a copy for free.

Originally posted by Deavon
At the risk of sounding like a complete bore;

Wouldn't it be nice if a thread about the Koran had more informative posts?

I'm not religous myself but I try to show a bit of reverence towards other people's beliefs when the occassion demands it.

Before you ask, no I haven't read it nor understand it. I wish I did, and out of 25 replies so far only one has actually furthered my understanding the subject of the thread.

I apologise for the previous posts. I was being daft as it was Friday and I found myself in a particularly silly mood.

To echo what Nick2 posted, I would never knowingly disrespect anyone's beliefs. If I have done that inadvertently, then I am sorry.

For anyone truly interested in reading the Qur'an i would recommend visiting "AL NOOR" 6 Ellesmere Road, Pitsmoor, Sheffield, South Yorkshire,

The guy that runs it is called Mohammed and is very helpful, he coverted to Islam a number of years ago.

Although I havent read the Qu'uran, I am authoritatively assured by devout Muslims there is nothing in their Holy Book which speaks of suicide bombers which they also consider detestable.

The Koran is available in most librararies and is educational reading, as are most Holy books.
It is said however that its true meaning cannot be gained unless it is read in Arabic
It is however worth reading and all of us could take lessons from it

I've read it. It's not much different from the Bible in parts..Hard going tho and obviously reading an english translation takes away from the fact that the Qur'an is supposed to be in Arabic and every copy is identical

Mod note:

I've just removed a couple of dozen stupid posts. Please stick to the point without the so-called 'comedy'.

Final warning.

i havent read it, BUT i have read the bible and can imagine its a similer sort of epic that pre dates the lord of the rings, nothing more nothing less

whats it about?
Dont know, I wouldnt waste my time:rant: It's a load of Bull****e anyway...

i havent read it, BUT i have read the bible and can imagine its a similer sort of epic that pre dates the lord of the rings, nothing more nothing less

Its actually very different. Both the old and new testaments are histories of a kind (however 'unhistorical' in reality and regardless of how much or how little has a factual basis), in that moral messages are unfolded and disclosed through events and through the lives of people of various kinds. The Koran is not like this at all. Both the old and new testaments have a coherent, logical structure in that their contents are sequenced in accordance with the unfolding of the events they describe. The Koran, by contrast, largely consists of 'messages' from God, supposedly revealed to Mohamed (who was illiterate anyway) and then written down by his followers, plus interpretations of these messages. It is mainly a series of behavioural injunctions, written in no particular order, and it is therefore no wonder that people whose conception of holy books derives from the bible can make little sense of it. Lord of the Rings it ain't.

There is an english translation here (http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/) - I wouldn't take it as being 100% correct though.

The Koran, by contrast, largely consists of 'messages' from God, supposedly revealed to Mohamed (who was illiterate anyway) and then written down by his followers, plus interpretations of these messages. It is mainly a series of behavioural injunctions, written in no particular order, and it is therefore no wonder that people whose conception of holy books derives from the bible can make little sense of it. Lord of the Rings it ain't.

I think it would be fair to say that all these holy books were made up by a very few literate people and subscribed to by millions of illiterates. How sad that in the 21st century, little has changed.

Its actually very different. Both the old and new testaments are histories of a kind (however 'unhistorical' in reality and regardless of how much or how little has a factual basis), in that moral messages are unfolded and disclosed through events and through the lives of people of various kinds. The Koran is not like this at all. Both the old and new testaments have a coherent, logical structure in that their contents are sequenced in accordance with the unfolding of the events they describe. The Koran, by contrast, largely consists of 'messages' from God, supposedly revealed to Mohamed (who was illiterate anyway) and then written down by his followers, plus interpretations of these messages. It is mainly a series of behavioural injunctions, written in no particular order, and it is therefore no wonder that people whose conception of holy books derives from the bible can make little sense of it. Lord of the Rings it ain't.

hm
so its not a swashbuckling story book then ? :(

I have an arabic to english version too (from when some people tried to convert me :hihi: )

Free to a good home......

The Koran is not only regarded as the infallible word of Allah, as revealed to Mohammed by the Angel Gabriel, and as a guide to the rules of conduct fundamental to the Arab way of life. Aside from its supposed greatness as a book of divine, prophetic literature, it is viewed by many scholars, such as N.J.Dawood, as a literary masterpiece of surpassing excellence.

I read Dawood's standard English translation around a decade ago. To be perfectly frank, aside from being genuinely impressed by the thunderous poetic beauty of many of the verses, I found the general content disconcerting. Without wishing to appear facetious or disrespectful, there seems to be a threat on every page. Growing up as a lapsed Anglican [the church has been taken over by damp-eyed, anorak-wearing guitarists who jump up and down for Jesus], my image of the Almighty is a much gentler one than the image presented in the Koran. Allah, if Dawood's translation can be viewed as reasonably accurate, is most certainly compassionate. However, rarely if ever, had I encountered so many ferocious threats of harrowing torment designed for sinners than in the Islamic holy book.

Sir John Betjeman once remarked that, 'there's refuge in the C of E'. I found little of refuge or comfort in the Koran. To be honest, it scared me half to death.

The Koran is not only regarded as the infallible word of Allah, as revealed to Mohammed by the Angel Gabriel, and as a guide to the rules of conduct fundamental to the Arab way of life. Aside from its supposed greatness as a book of divine, prophetic literature, it is viewed by many scholars, such as N.J.Dawood, as a literary masterpiece of surpassing excellence.

I read Dawood's standard English translation around a decade ago. To be perfectly frank, aside from being genuinely impressed by the thunderous poetic beauty of many of the verses, I found the general content disconcerting. Without wishing to appear facetious or disrespectful, there seems to be a threat on every page. Growing up as a lapsed Anglican [the church has been taken over by damp-eyed, anorak-wearing guitarists who jump up and down for Jesus], my image of the Almighty is a much gentler one than the image presented in the Koran. Allah, if Dawood's translation can be viewed as reasonably accurate, is most certainly compassionate. However, rarely if ever, had I encountered so many ferocious threats of harrowing torment designed for sinners than in the Islamic holy book.

Sir John Betjeman once remarked that, 'there's refuge in the C of E'. I found little of refuge or comfort in the Koran. To be honest, it scared me half to death.

Its not meant to scare you, I suppose if you are offered a sweet medication on one hand but a sour on the other, people would take the sweet one. In Islam there is no 'confession' to another person, its you and god. The main message is that you can still repent and mend your ways, by asking forgiveness and avoiding the punishment. When revealed, it was a time where many idols were worshipped. Whether or not you agree with the punishments or the exact wording of the text itself is another matter, but lets not forget it was revealed over a period of 20+ years.

The poster is correct - The Analogy of the Quran is much deeper than simply literalism. The threats have a hidden meaning which is apparent.

The Quran literally means "Recitation" in Arabic, as in to "recite". Reading English Translations is good but you can never get the full meaning unless listened to in Arabic.

As for the hidden meanings, remember that yes the reminders (you call threats) are a similtitude of Heaven and Hellfire, which is core to the Islamic beleif (and all the 3 great monotheistic religions). Naturally in Hellfire you wouldnt expect fluffy sheep would you :)

To further the analogy of it being seen as "too many threats" - there are 114 chapters of the Quran.

Every single one of them starts with "In the name of God, the beneficient, the mercifull". As a reminder, indeed the Mercy of God is his biggest attribute in the Islamic faith.

The one chapter which does not start is Surah Taubah- which is the chapter revealed on Jihad.

This is because God is laying the strict rules of warfare in this chapter. Much different to the anarchy seen today.

Churches are not allowed to be targeted, Synagogues, Women, Children, Lame, Elderely, even a small group of Animals - nor trees - orchards , anything which benefits livelyhood and mankind are not allowed to be targets.

Only the oppressors who wage ware against you are ordered to be killed, or made captive - as you wish.

Finally, the 1 final missing "In the name of God, the Benificent, the Mercifull" is found in another chapter, twice. Exactly as it is started (same text) 113 times in the beginning of the other Surahs.

Thus making up the full 114 chapters/numbers and the amount of times it appears :)

Here is a wikipedia link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran

If you wish to receive a Quran for referance/general knowledge/information/conversion/whatever purpose.

Please PM and i would be glad to assist.

Peace.

You can buy a copy from W,H,Smiths

I'm currently flicking through a copy of same - can't find the action bit.

Here is an interesting website which is run by ex-Muslims (yes, there are some - indeed many, but they tend to prefer to keep a low profile for obvious reasons). The site includes close textual exegesis of the Koran and offers a very different take on this book to the 'little book of tolerance and calm' approach which is fast becoming a conventional wisdom in the West. The site also includes a very active forum, in which ex-muslims, practising muslims and never-were muslims engage in no holds barred debate. It also includes links to many other sites.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/index.htm

To follow on from Lord Chaverly, There is an ex-Muslim, 'Mark Gabriel' (He changed his name after leaving Islam) who has wrote a few books on the topic.
He was a Professor of Islamic history at Al-Azhar university in Egypt, (Islams finest) and an Imam in a Cairo Mosque, so is without doubt qualified on the subject.
You can get his books from Amazon (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index%3Dbooks-uk%26field-author%3Dmark%20gabriel%26results-process%3Ddefault%26dispatch%3Dsearch/ref%3Dpd%5Fsl%5Faw%5Ftops-2%5Fbooks-uk%5F8288959%5F2/026-6656521-2546809), well worth the investment.

To follow on from Lord Chaverly, There is an ex-Muslim, 'Mark Gabriel' (He changed his name after leaving Islam) who has wrote a few books on the topic.
He was a Professor of Islamic history at Al-Azhar university in Egypt, (Islams finest) and an Imam in a Cairo Mosque, so is without doubt qualified on the subject.
You can get his books from Amazon (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index%3Dbooks-uk%26field-author%3Dmark%20gabriel%26results-process%3Ddefault%26dispatch%3Dsearch/ref%3Dpd%5Fsl%5Faw%5Ftops-2%5Fbooks-uk%5F8288959%5F2/026-6656521-2546809), well worth the investment.

To follow on from kay_cee, it appears there's a fair amount of controversy re 'Mark Gabriel'

Taken from wikipedia.com

Gabriel's real name has not been revealed and his biography has not been independently verified. In addition to his qualifications from Al Azhar University, Gabriel has a doctorate in Christian education and a master's in world religion from Florida Christian University in Orlando, which is an unaccredited diploma mill. He describes himself as founder and president of Hope for the Nations, a "missions organization dedicated to bringing the Good News to the entire world, including Muslims and Jews" (Gabriel, 2003, p. 220). Gabriel prays "for the entire world, including Muslims and Jews, to come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ" (ibid., p. 187).

Gabriel's website, markagabriel.com, is no longer available. It was run by Bradlee Sargent, an American-born computer programmer who "saw the importance of evangelizing Muslims in 1983, when he lived in Saudi Arabia." [1] Sargent is a member of the Arabic Evangelical Church, [2] organized by Syrian-born Arab Christian Peter Shadid, [3] (pdf) which aims to guide the Muslims of Central Florida "away from the Islamic teachings of Mohammed and toward Christianity".

The books published by Gabriel are promoted by Stephen Strang's Strang Communications. Strang believes that "Y'eshua is getting us ready for his return. And I believe that Y'eshua is getting us ready, all of us, the Gentile church included, for the great influx of believers. Of Jewish people whose eyes are finally opened to their need for a Messiah." [4]

And the controversy is where exactly, Zafar??

His former Muslim name can't be found as Mark will keep it well hidden in order to try and protect his remaining Muslim family back in Egypt.
Mark himself cannot return there due to various death threats in accordance with Muhammeds ruling in Bukharis Hadith, volume 9, book 84, number 58 - The ruling on killing apostates.

Wikipedia confirms his Al-Azhar qualifications, so I really don't see the point to your challenge.

Apart from of course, you can't bare to see a Muslim leaving Islam, and so you just resort to trying to discredit the person, instead of just accepting the fact.

Pah.

if they dont know who he is how they gonna kill him?

And the controversy is where exactly, Zafar??

His former Muslim name can't be found as Mark will keep it well hidden in order to try and protect his remaining Muslim family back in Egypt.
Mark himself cannot return there due to various death threats in accordance with Bukharis Hadith, volume 9, book 84, number 58 - The ruling on killing apostates.

Wikipedia confirms his Al-Azhar qualifications, so I really don't see the point to your challenge.

Apart from of course, you can't bare to see a Muslim leaving Islam, and so you just resort to trying to discredit the person, instead of just accepting the fact.

Pah.

Kay_Cee,

Before you go off on a tangent, my point is that unless there is confirmation of a person or a group (referring to the link LordC pasted) its difficult to confirm 'facts'.

Alot of authors (some using pseudonyms) can make claims about their CV which can not be corroborated. Its probably a 'shock' to you that alot of top company exec's make fibs on their CV's so why cant authors? especially ones where their names/details are shrouded in secrecy!

LordC pasted a link to a group claiming to be 'Ex-Muslims', but its just a website, there is no way to confirm who these people claim to be.

I have no problems with people choosing to drop their religion, its THEIR choice. Why should I loose sleep ?

Questioning does not equal discrediting and to the contrary it appears that anyone who espouses anything anti-islamic seems to be 'hero' for you.

Z

Zafar & 4U2NV;
As I'm sure you are aware, it is extremely dangerous for a Muslim to leave Islam. Muhammed decreed the death penalty for those who did so.

Whilst ever this decree stands (probably forever) Muslims who leave Islam must, at the very least, be careful about the personal information they give out.
So yes, Zafar, it may be difficult to establish facts and confirm information relating to their background which present Muslims jump on and use as a way to dicredit their testimony.

I could take you tommorow night to a group in Sheffield of (mainly) Iranian converts to Christianity who meet in homes across the city.
But I won't.
Why? It could be dangerous for them, some of them have suffered physical persecution even in our country because of their conversions.

Because I won't take you, does that mean they don't exist? No. But disbelieve it if you want Zafar, I care little.

Is this book fiction or non-fiction .

Kay_Cee,

Before you go off on a tangent, my point is that unless there is confirmation of a person or a group (referring to the link LordC pasted) its difficult to confirm 'facts'.

Alot of authors (some using pseudonyms) can make claims about their CV which can not be corroborated. Its probably a 'shock' to you that alot of top company exec's make fibs on their CV's so why cant authors? especially ones where their names/details are shrouded in secrecy!

LordC pasted a link to a group claiming to be 'Ex-Muslims', but its just a website, there is no way to confirm who these people claim to be.

I have no problems with people choosing to drop their religion, its THEIR choice. Why should I loose sleep ?

Questioning does not equal discrediting and to the contrary it appears that anyone who espouses anything anti-islamic seems to be 'hero' for you.

Z

zafar,

The tone of your post seems to one of scepticism concerning the credentials and veracity of the 'ex-muslims' on the site I cited above. The site is run by Ali Sina, about whom there is little doubt - he is definitely an ex-muslim and has given many interviews to the press concerning his apostacy and views on Islam. If you read some of the posts on the site's forum, I think there can be little doubt that they are ex-muslims too (why would they go to such lengths to invent an apostate history? - and why do you find it so hard to believe that some muslims indeed do abandon Islam?).

Of course, Ali Sina is by no means the only muslim apostate to achieve prominence in this way. Probably an even more famous case is that of Ibn Warraq (another ex-muslim from the Indian subcontinent, like Sina himself). Warraq has written a quite well known book entitled 'Why I Am Not A Muslim', which is a very interesting and informative read.

In any case, I suggest you take the analyses of the Koran on these sites at their face value. The depth and breadth of knowledge they display at the very least demonstrate that the writers have a great deal of knowledge about Islam and the Koran, whether you believe them or not.

I do wish the majority of other muslims shared your tolerance of muslim apostates. A more common reaction is to send the believers into paroxysms of rage or into a state of denial (involving the strong possibility of ostacism where a family member is involved and condign punishment where a muslim government is involved). No compulsion in religion? I only wish it was generally true in muslim societies. Unfortunately, the opposite seems generally to be the case.

Here is Warraq's site.

http://www.secularislam.org/

whats it about?


It's a fantasy novel init

People

This is the "Have you read the Quran" thread. Not the have people left Islam thread?

If you wish to comment on that character or any iranian people do it on a seperate thread and please dont smudge/grey this thread. Cant we keep it concise?

Finally none of you are experts in Apostasty in Islamic Law.

So dont try and do a PHD thesis online when you know nothing except one or two links. Well you can of course if you want, but it wouldnt be an authority.

Zafar & 4U2NV;
As I'm sure you are aware, it is extremely dangerous for a Muslim to leave Islam. Muhammed decreed the death penalty for those who did so.

Whilst ever this decree stands (probably forever) Muslims who leave Islam must, at the very least, be careful about the personal information they give out.
So yes, Zafar, it may be difficult to establish facts and confirm information relating to their background which present Muslims jump on and use as a way to dicredit their testimony.

I could take you tommorow night to a group in Sheffield of (mainly) Iranian converts to Christianity who meet in homes across the city.
But I won't.
Why? It could be dangerous for them, some of them have suffered physical persecution even in our country because of their conversions.

Because I won't take you, does that mean they don't exist? No. But disbelieve it if you want Zafar, I care little.

The act of apostacy is a serious offence in all of the monothesic religions.

Indeed what does it say in the Torah ?

Deuteronomy 13:6-10:

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which [is] as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; [Namely], of the gods of the people which [are] round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

HOWEVER, this has to be taken in the context of the Law of the land.

If the law of the land dictates that becoming an appostate is a criminal offence then it would be silly to openly tell everyone that you've commited a crime! Its a no brainer!

Under the UK law its not an offence, so people are free to choose and follow their beliefs.

My point re the web is that anyone can claim anything, therefore there should be some caution before taking everything as being the Gospel truth.

For instance a person could easily setup a website claiming to be a convert from Judaism and then going on to make a whole series of derogatory and inflammatory remarks about Judaism. There isn't a central register of 'converts'.

In the current climate, its kind of en-vogue to be an ex Muslim who slates Islam or other muslims.

Its true that muslims see apostates as 'criminals', just as orthodox Jews will see apostates in a similar light. Its only a problem when they take it upon themselves to break the laws of the Land in 'punishing' them.

I've met many Iranians during my time working in the South, and contrary to the 'fundamentalist' picture painted in the press, the vast majority of them were western leaning secularists (perhaps alot were exiles from the time of the Shah's removal?).

We tended to disagree in debates about religion and Arab/Persian history but there is nothing wrong with disagreeing. Alot of Iranian's dont hold Arabs in high regards, but similarly alot of Arabs dont hold the Iranians in high esteem.
Perhaps its not too dissimilar to the English/Irish phenomenon.

Finally the notion of apostacy is nothing new, so I dont have a problem 'believing' you.

Z

Asalaam Alaikum

Good point Zafar:)

I borrowed an English version of the Koran, but after a short time I put it down as it is all repetion and just as bad as the Bible. It gets so boring reading the same phrases page after page, so the reader is not learning anything, I returned it in perfect condition and have never been interested since.

Koran/Bible same load of ******** .

My point re the web is that anyone can claim anything, therefore there should be some caution before taking everything as being the Gospel truth.

For instance a person could easily setup a website claiming to be a convert from Judaism and then going on to make a whole series of derogatory and inflammatory remarks about Judaism.

You are very correct Zafar to be sceptical, questioning and suspicious of the content of that found on the net. It is full of the ramblings of the delusioned, disingenous and downright barmy theories of some of the world's charlatans. Pity really that you can't apply the same to the ramblings of some guy in Saudi Arabia who 1500 years ago claimed the angel Gabriel came for a chat with him in a cave :loopy: :loopy:

You are very correct Zafar to be sceptical, questioning and suspicious of the content of that found on the net. It is full of the ramblings of the delusioned, disingenous and downright barmy theories of some of the world's charlatans. Pity really that you can't apply the same to the ramblings of some guy in Saudi Arabia who 1500 years ago claimed the angel Gabriel came for a chat with him in a cave :loopy: :loopy:

You mean it's not true then? You'll be telling me the tooth fairy was made up by well meaning dentists next :D

You are very correct Zafar to be sceptical, questioning and suspicious of the content of that found on the net. It is full of the ramblings of the delusioned, disingenous and downright barmy theories of some of the world's charlatans. Pity really that you can't apply the same to the ramblings of some guy in Saudi Arabia who 1500 years ago claimed the angel Gabriel came for a chat with him in a cave :loopy: :loopy:


Now that's logic beyond any sane argument.

People ask for proof about anything and everything, and goodness knows half of the Forum contributors think that the press tell nothing but lies. So why ever should we take seriously books written back in times when half of people believed in witches and the other half thought the world was flat?

You mean it's not true then? You'll be telling me the tooth fairy was made up by well meaning dentists next :D

No the tooth fairy is very real, she came and visited me only last week here in Aigburth and we went down the pub together. She's a tight cow though because after I got the first round in which wasn't cheap (she drink's brandy and babycham) she buggered off because she was going out clubbing with David Icke!:huh: :huh:

Now that's logic beyond any sane argument.

People ask for proof about anything and everything, and goodness knows half of the Forum contributors think that the press tell nothing but lies. So why ever should we take seriously books written back in times when half of people believed in witches and the other half thought the world was flat?

Parental responsibilities, in this context, should start and end by providing children with information to enable them to make informed choices and decisions. Unfortunately, this is seldom the case. Pressures in adulthood are no longer the sole domain of family and friends, but media moguls, movie stars and other worthless role models eat into the psyche of the vulnerable. It therefore follows that to have a crutch to lean on, be told what to think, how to behave, what to wear and eat, is infinitely preferable, for some, to having to use the one thing that should make us unique, a brain. This is why the power of self definition and destination is removed by the few, at the very early stages of the many. It's commonly known as control. To deny this in any shape or form only goes to prove my point, as if it needed proving at all.

There isn't a central register of 'converts'.



Please would you mind clarifying this particular comment. Thank you. wgs

Here is an interesting website which is run by ex-Muslims (yes, there are some - indeed many, but they tend to prefer to keep a low profile for obvious reasons). The site includes close textual exegesis of the Koran and offers a very different take on this book to the 'little book of tolerance and calm' approach which is fast becoming a conventional wisdom in the West. The site also includes a very active forum, in which ex-muslims, practising muslims and never-were muslims engage in no holds barred debate. It also includes links to many other sites.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/index.htm

This is an even more interesting website run by muslims to give people more of an insight about the Quran.

http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1.htm

this is only one of 1000's websites that exist for people to gain knowledge on what is the fastest growing religion in the world!

This is an even more interesting website run by muslims to give people more of an insight about the Quran.

http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1.htm

this is only one of 1000's websites that exist for people to gain knowledge on what is the fastest growing religion in the world!

Islamists seem to take enormous delight in repeating the phrase that 'Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world'. What they often fail to mention is that this, if indeed it is true, is due almost entirely to the higher birth rates in muslim communities, allied to the severe moral, social and (in many cases) legal penalties for apostacy. Historically, the spread of Islam has largely been through conquest and forced conversion rather than through voluntary conversion.

The act of apostacy is a serious offence in all of the monothesic religions.

Indeed what does it say in the Torah ?

Deuteronomy 13:6-10:

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which [is] as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; [Namely], of the gods of the people which [are] round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

HOWEVER, this has to be taken in the context of the Law of the land.

If the law of the land dictates that becoming an appostate is a criminal offence then it would be silly to openly tell everyone that you've commited a crime! Its a no brainer!

Under the UK law its not an offence, so people are free to choose and follow their beliefs.

My point re the web is that anyone can claim anything, therefore there should be some caution before taking everything as being the Gospel truth.

For instance a person could easily setup a website claiming to be a convert from Judaism and then going on to make a whole series of derogatory and inflammatory remarks about Judaism. There isn't a central register of 'converts'.

In the current climate, its kind of en-vogue to be an ex Muslim who slates Islam or other muslims.

Its true that muslims see apostates as 'criminals', just as orthodox Jews will see apostates in a similar light. Its only a problem when they take it upon themselves to break the laws of the Land in 'punishing' them.

I've met many Iranians during my time working in the South, and contrary to the 'fundamentalist' picture painted in the press, the vast majority of them were western leaning secularists (perhaps alot were exiles from the time of the Shah's removal?).

We tended to disagree in debates about religion and Arab/Persian history but there is nothing wrong with disagreeing. Alot of Iranian's dont hold Arabs in high regards, but similarly alot of Arabs dont hold the Iranians in high esteem.
Perhaps its not too dissimilar to the English/Irish phenomenon.

Finally the notion of apostacy is nothing new, so I dont have a problem 'believing' you.

Z

I am pleased that you have no problem in believing me with regard to the existence of muslim apostates. You are of course right to argue that apostacy exists in all religions (and so it should). However, I tend to think that the reaction to apostacy within the muslim religion is fundamentally and qualitatively different to that of all other major religions, whether montheistic or not. In particular, the muslim religion seems to be the only one today which meets out condign punishments to apostates (in many muslim countries it is a criminal offence to forgo the Islamic faith, with severe penalties - in some cases death and in others long terms of imprisonment - attached). Within muslim communities in the West, apostates are likely to suffer ostracism from their families, which is why they are likely to keep a low profile).

Islamists seem to take enormous delight in repeating the phrase that 'Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world'. What they often fail to mention is that this, if indeed it is true, is due almost entirely to the higher birth rates in muslim communities, allied to the severe moral, social and (in many cases) legal penalties for apostacy. Historically, the spread of Islam has largely been through conquest and forced conversion rather than through voluntary conversion.

#The biggest lie invented.

Islamists seem to take enormous delight in repeating the phrase that 'Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world'. What they often fail to mention is that this, if indeed it is true, is due almost entirely to the higher birth rates in muslim communities, allied to the severe moral, social and (in many cases) legal penalties for apostacy. Historically, the spread of Islam has largely been through conquest and forced conversion rather than through voluntary conversion.

PROVE IT.:loopy:

PROVE IT.:loopy:


No - disprove it.:loopy:

No - disprove it.:loopy:

Unbelievable asked first or is the fact that that LC just made all that up and in fact cant prove jack?:hihi:

:P no!!!!!!!!!! who's the author "stephen king"

No - disprove it.:loopy:

To be fair,Bartfarst,it was LordC who made the statement-the onus is on him to validate his claim with proof-as im sure he'll be along to do,any minute....

I am pleased that you have no problem in believing me with regard to the existence of muslim apostates. You are of course right to argue that apostacy exists in all religions (and so it should). However, I tend to think that the reaction to apostacy within the muslim religion is fundamentally and qualitatively different to that of all other major religions, whether montheistic or not. In particular, the muslim religion seems to be the only one today which meets out condign punishments to apostates (in many muslim countries it is a criminal offence to forgo the Islamic faith, with severe penalties - in some cases death and in others long terms of imprisonment - attached). Within muslim communities in the West, apostates are likely to suffer ostracism from their families, which is why they are likely to keep a low profile).

I dont believe its a question of apostacy 'should' exist, its just a fact of life so to speak. Companies acquire new customers and also suffer from churn, i.e. customers who take their business elsewhere. Growth is simply a measure of the existing customer base + new customers - churn.

I suspect that you percieve the Islamic faith as being fundamentally and qualitatively different because of the coverage given to it in recent times, especially since the so called War on Terrorism was instigated, along with the celebrity status bestowed upon Islam bashers.

I imagine the older generation of Jewish people can probably relate to some of the experiences that muslims are currently undergoing in terms of how Judaism was villified by enlightened European Intellectuals.

There is a certain level of imbalance and selectivity regarding the criticism of Islamic beliefs and practices which doesn't extend to other faiths or indeed other cultures.

Many of the practices which are highlighted are ignored when it comes to other faiths and their beliefs. I've already listed what Judaism prescribes visa vi Apostacy, but what about Hinduism and the practice of wife burning or the practices of Christians in places such as Africa or South America ?

You mentioned that Islamic growth has historically been through conquest, but you fail to qualify that with say Christian growth in the past and the linkage with European imperial conquests. Indeed never mind Africa, Asia, South America and imperial conquests, the growth of Christianity within Europe itself is a long and often bloody story of forced conversions, beit in the Northern European states or the later inquisitions in modern day Spain.

However in the end, I believe that the general argument of this group did this in the past or that group did that in the past is a redundant argument as:

1) No one can say for definate what actually happened.
2) We all live in the present, and many of those who carried out the alleged acts have been dead and buried for years, decades or indeed tens of centuries.
3) It serves no real purpose other than to create divisions and hurt people's sensitivities.

You said that within muslim communities in the West, apostates are likely to suffer ostracism from their families, which is why they are likely to keep a low
profile.

This is probably true, but as I've never heard of anyone from my background/culture becoming an apostate I cant qualify it with any hard numbers, HOWEVER, what I can say from experience is that many ethnic communities have ostracised family members for other reasons, particularly related around marriage.

This form of ostrasicm within families crosses cultures and faiths, as many a Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh member could testify to.

Z

Islamists seem to take enormous delight in repeating the phrase that 'Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world'. What they often fail to mention is that this, if indeed it is true, is due almost entirely to the higher birth rates in muslim communities, allied to the severe moral, social and (in many cases) legal penalties for apostacy. Historically, the spread of Islam has largely been through conquest and forced conversion rather than through voluntary conversion.

LordC,

Whilst there is probably truth in the comment about higher birth rates, Its worth noting that there does seem to be an increased conversion or reversion taking place in the west towards Islam post 11th of Sep 2001.

Without hard facts and numbers, I think we can all recognise 'English' muslims on our streets and city centres. This is certainly not something I saw growing up.

Its also worth noting that 'growth' for other Faiths such as Christianity etc is mostly occurring in area's of the world with higher birth rates than Europe such as South America / Africa.

Lastly, the idea of these parts of the world having 'higher' birth rates is slightly misleading. The number of children being born in many poorer parts of the world isn't any higher than it use to be, its just that the birth rates in the 'developed' parts of the world have been plummeting and the chances of babies dying in the poorer parts has declined.

Having said that I suppose the current changes in climate will play in altering the mortality rates in the poorer parts of the world.

Z

2) We all live in the present,
Z

Unless, of course, you are unfortunate enough to live under Sharia law -whereby you live in the Dark Ages.

LordC,

Whilst there is probably truth in the comment about higher birth rates, Its worth noting that there does seem to be an increased conversion or reversion taking place in the west towards Islam post 11th of Sep 2001.


Pure speculation backed up with nothing and therefore not worth noting at all.


Without hard facts and numbers, I think we can all recognise 'English' muslims on our streets and city centres. This is certainly not something I saw growing up.


Yes, after successive Islamist terrorist outrages we are all a little more aware of Muslims on our streets.


Lastly, the idea of these parts of the world having 'higher' birth rates is slightly misleading. The number of children being born in many poorer parts of the world isn't any higher than it use to be, its just that the birth rates in the 'developed' parts of the world have been plummeting and the chances of babies dying in the poorer parts has declined.

Less developed countries have both relative (in comparison with developed countries) and absolute (the number of babies born) birth rates that are high. The number of children being born in many poorer parts of the world is thus higher than in the past.

My point re the web is that anyone can claim anything, therefore there should be some caution before taking everything as being the Gospel truth.

For instance a person could easily setup a website claiming to be a convert from Judaism and then going on to make a whole series of derogatory and inflammatory remarks about Judaism. There isn't a central register of 'converts'.

Z


I am more than happy to verify zafar's observations about the merit of on-line reporting which is borne out by my recent experience of a link that was sent to me which displayed several scenes supposedly involving the arrest and murder of a Palestinian.

As this deeply concerned me, I made inquiries and ultimately discovered all parties, ie Arabs, Muslims and the West were highly sceptical of this on-line reportage which was considered to lack any substance and foundation.

I was glad to report back to my information source that although profoundly disturbed by the photographs, no evidence existed to support the allegations.

In addition, I am sure that if we cast our minds back, we will all remember the unacceptable way in which some photo-journalists chose to misrepresent the scenes from the Kuwaiti oil refineries some years ago.

Unless, of course, you are unfortunate enough to live under Sharia law -whereby you live in the Dark Ages.

Not the Dark Ages, but the time of the Spanish Inquisition and the general Terror would be appropriate.

I do rather think that Islam is merely 500 years behind Christianity. After all, Mohammad was about the same time behind Jesus.

For the majority, Islam will die out in another half millennia or so. Until then, patience ;)

PROVE IT.:loopy:
Islamic conquests in the first 120 years after Mohammeds death
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_conquests

1,400 years of Christian/Islamic struggle:
http://www.cbn.com/CBNNews/Commentary/IslamHistory0212.asp

Jihad in the West:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1233577/posts

Chronology of conquests in the name of Allah:
http://www.crossroad.to/glossary/islam-chron.htm

Jihad and Dhimmitude:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=4857

I would think there's plenty of proof there. And the eminent historian J B Kelly said "Had Charles Martel not triumphed at Tours, Arabic might well have been the language of Cambridge and Oxford". And history tells us that Islam was spread by the sword and stopped by the cannon and musket at Vienna in 1683.

Not the Dark Ages, but the time of the Spanish Inquisition and the general Terror would be appropriate.

I do rather think that Islam is merely 500 years behind Christianity. After all, Mohammad was about the same time behind Jesus.

For the majority, Islam will die out in another half millennia or so. Until then, patience ;)

I was just about to quote the same thing, or near enough.

The obsession with Christian expansion left the Catholic Church with a rather brutal and embarrassing past for quite a while, and it took the Church’s attitude hundreds of years to mature.

It would seem that large elements of the Islamic faith are willing to embrace the same sort of obsessive and uncompromising view of their faith’s importance and supremacy over faiths, and are blind to the infantile, naive and ignorant image that they present to others.

I dont believe its a question of apostacy 'should' exist, its just a fact of life so to speak. Companies acquire new customers and also suffer from churn, i.e. customers who take their business elsewhere. Growth is simply a measure of the existing customer base + new customers - churn.

I suspect that you percieve the Islamic faith as being fundamentally and qualitatively different because of the coverage given to it in recent times, especially since the so called War on Terrorism was instigated, along with the celebrity status bestowed upon Islam bashers.

I imagine the older generation of Jewish people can probably relate to some of the experiences that muslims are currently undergoing in terms of how Judaism was villified by enlightened European Intellectuals.

There is a certain level of imbalance and selectivity regarding the criticism of Islamic beliefs and practices which doesn't extend to other faiths or indeed other cultures.

Many of the practices which are highlighted are ignored when it comes to other faiths and their beliefs. I've already listed what Judaism prescribes visa vi Apostacy, but what about Hinduism and the practice of wife burning or the practices of Christians in places such as Africa or South America ?

You mentioned that Islamic growth has historically been through conquest, but you fail to qualify that with say Christian growth in the past and the linkage with European imperial conquests. Indeed never mind Africa, Asia, South America and imperial conquests, the growth of Christianity within Europe itself is a long and often bloody story of forced conversions, beit in the Northern European states or the later inquisitions in modern day Spain.

However in the end, I believe that the general argument of this group did this in the past or that group did that in the past is a redundant argument as:

1) No one can say for definate what actually happened.
2) We all live in the present, and many of those who carried out the alleged acts have been dead and buried for years, decades or indeed tens of centuries.
3) It serves no real purpose other than to create divisions and hurt people's sensitivities.

You said that within muslim communities in the West, apostates are likely to suffer ostracism from their families, which is why they are likely to keep a low
profile.

This is probably true, but as I've never heard of anyone from my background/culture becoming an apostate I cant qualify it with any hard numbers, HOWEVER, what I can say from experience is that many ethnic communities have ostracised family members for other reasons, particularly related around marriage.

This form of ostrasicm within families crosses cultures and faiths, as many a Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh member could testify to.

Z


Zafar,

I agree with you that Christianity has been a prosylitising religion and has in the past been spread by the sword. In my comments about Islam being spread largely by conquest, I was responding to a previous poster who was repeating the triumphalist mantra about Islam being the 'fastest growing religion'. I was therefore commenting on the nature of Islamic expansionism in the past and implicitly was challenging another popular mantra of the PR-savvy Islamists so beloved of the Western media - i.e. that 'there is no compulsion in religion'.

The latter statement dates from the early part of Mohammad's career - i.e. when his forces were still weak. As these forces became stronger, this tolerant stance was dropped in favour of a much more aggressive, expansionist and intolerant posture. Far from being a 'gentle Jesus meek and mild figure', Mohammad was an aggressive warrior who took part in over 60 military actions (mostly raids of one kind or another) and personally ordered captives executed and their wives and children carried off as booty. He also personally decreed that the punishment for apostasy should be death and indeed had various 'apostates' executed. The reason why apostasy in Islam even today is generally regarded as a terrible crime is that it is viewed as a kind of treason against God.

There is no doubt that Islam was spread by the sword throughout the Arab peninsula and also to Iran, parts of India, Africa and even parts of Europe by military campaigns and forced conversions. I believe you are of Pakistani ethnic origin, so you may be interested to discuss and debate how Islam reached and conquered part of the Indian sub-continent. I am referring here to the brutal conquest and islamification of Sindh and other areas of what is roughly Pakistan by Arab invaders such as Mohammed bin Qasim in the early 8th century and beyond. Again, historians have very different views on what actually happened during this period, but there is a considerable body of evidence to suggest that this process of Islamification of Hindu populations resulted in large measure from forced conversions. There is also much evidence that this conquest was very bloody and resulted in mass slaughter and enslavement of those who resisted.

I am not sure if you are familiar with the writings of V.S.Naipaul, but he has a theory that Pakistani muslims are still a 'colonised' people, in that they are colonised by the Arab culture and religion imposed on their ancestors many centuries ago (he has said the same about Iranians). Given the incalculable degree of misery and suffering caused by wars between muslims and hindus on the Indian sub-continent over many centuries, arguably the arrival of the Syrian Qasim in the region in the 8th century is a much greater cause for lament than the arrival of the East India Company in 18th century. At least the British Raj had a policy of non-conversion by force (and indeed actively discouraged the activities of Christian missionaries).

Not the Dark Ages, but the time of the Spanish Inquisition and the general Terror would be appropriate.

I do rather think that Islam is merely 500 years behind Christianity. After all, Mohammad was about the same time behind Jesus.

For the majority, Islam will die out in another half millennia or so. Until then, patience ;)

Yes, I've thought along these lines too. Is it the case that Islam is simply adolescent - young (by comparison), surly, in yer face and convinced of its own longevity and importance (there is no God, but Allah, either you're one of us or you're kafir)?
Houellebecq explores this theme in The Possibility of an Island and compares the current Islamist fervour with the rise of communism. Ultimately, he suggests, once all the angry young men grow up and the people tire of its dogma and authoritarianism, Islam, like the other so-called great faiths and -isms, will go into terminal decline. However, as Sam Harris asks in The End of Faith, in the age of WMD and hyper-terrorism (Bin Laden and crew make the IRA seem like a bunch of Boy Scouts) can we afford the luxury of assuming that this natural life cycle we come to pass? In other words, will Islamic terrorism and our cackhanded responses to it(stomping on our civil liberties in the name of the war on terror), do for our liberal, nominally secular democracies before Islam fades away?

I would think there's plenty of proof there. And the eminent historian J B Kelly said "Had Charles Martel not triumphed at Tours, Arabic might well have been the language of Cambridge and Oxford". And history tells us that Islam was spread by the sword and stopped by the cannon and musket at Vienna in 1683.

:hihi: what about the spanish inquisition (Torquemada)?
forced conversion to christianity or death. hmmm

I can't believe this thread is still going :)

Islam means 'Submissive' We have never been known as a people to surrender so I think that, with a few exceptions they are barking up the wrong tree

Don't mean to revive an old thread, but Islam doesn't mean submissive at all.

People sometimes say, "Islam means Peace." Like to know where they got that intrepretation from because my mother tongue is arabic and no way the words means peace.

SALAAM means Peace not Islam.

So, is the definition of Islam?

Islam comes from the ROOT word in Arabic SA’LA’MA which contains the following 5 words:

Surrender, Submission, Obedience, Purity/Sincerity and Peace.

To who?

To the One God or as Muslims say, "Allah."

If you look at the Arabic Dictionary:

ISLAM is a VERB that means: SURRENDER your will to god “Allah”; OBEY his commandments; be in total SUBMISSION to what He wants you to do all the time; and do all the above PURELY / SINCERILY for his sake alone; in order to achieve PEACE between your soul and Him the one and only creator.

As for Islam being young - all the messengers, prophets, like Moses, Jesus, Abrahim and thousands more (peace be upon them) came from the same God. But many misunderstood, misintrepreted their message and corrupted it. So the final message is Islam, The Holy Qur'an and the example of Muhammad peace be upon him. Does that mean we as Muslims should disrespect Christainity and other religions? No. Because for many who missed the point, and I am talking about fellow Muslims too - Muhammad (peace be upon him) also came to correct character. So, we must respect other people's belief and talk with wisdom and do not curse their belief but discuss and learn from one another.

Again, apologies to revive the thread but saw something here I needed to answer, as it is the Intention and action with it that matters.

The resurrection of this thread reminds me of how good Sheffield Forum once was. Where did all the intelligent posters go?

The resurrection of this thread reminds me of how good Sheffield Forum once was. Where did all the intelligent posters go?
They have been hoarded away. When Zafar declined and moved away, I sense that was the end of an era too. That goes with BT. LordC's style also changed too. I notice this subtle difference in what people write. Even I was radicalised... and I felt myself changing too from what I read on this board. It is scary. Only the stupid people stay and not move on and find enlightenment in all of this confusion and angst. I know this happened to myself for definite.

I've read what theHook have written. I also understand when people write in English that "Islam means Peace", I knew they meant the literal word or the meaning of the word when translated meant peace, and not their opinion of the religion meaning peace. A lot of non-believers who attack or challenge the religion more often than not do so out of a need to misconstrue a meaning to suit what they think and see from where they are standing.

I see this happen a lot even in translation of chinese words, never mind whether it is Arabic words. It drums up confusion and misunderstanding on how individual apply a religion to how they describe, or form an opinion of it.

They have been hoarded away. When Zafar declined and moved away, I sense that was the end of an era too. That goes with BT. LordC's style also changed too. I notice this subtle difference in what people write. Even I was radicalised... and I felt myself changing too from what I read on this board. It is scary. Only the stupid people stay and not move on and find enlightenment in all of this confusion and angst. I know this happened to myself for definite.

I've read what theHook have written. I also understand when people write in English that "Islam means Peace", I knew they meant the literal word or the meaning of the word when translated meant peace, and not their opinion of the religion meaning peace. A lot of non-believers who attack or challenge the religion more often than not do so out of a need to misconstrue a meaning to suit what they think and see from where they are standing.

I see this happen a lot even in translation of chinese words, never mind whether it is Arabic words. It drums up confusion and misunderstanding on how individual apply a religion to how they describe, or form an opinion of it.

I have to agree with you there because I really like learning about other religions and cultures but sometimes, it gets tiring at times cause I don't know if someone really wants to know, or being sarcastic or want to argue. Just gets tiring that's all.

So, I kind of gave up sitting down talking or sharing much on Islam or arabic online at all. Although I got a christain mate a few doors away in which we talk for a few hours and we never had an argument. Knowledgeable person on different religions which is why I like chatting to him. Yes, he's Christain and I am Muslim but, I learn a lot from him on a lot of things and well, got to know much about life in England too.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

Far and away the best quran translation and resource.

Once you have read it, then you can make a call on what islam is really about.

9/11
London Bombings
Lockerbie
Glasgow Airport
ect ect ect
All Read The Koran and followed its beliefs
Do not Drink Alchohol..........They Do!
They aint allowed to Gamble........They Do
And as Long as they treat them all the same they are allowed to have 5 wives!!!!!!
Jeeeeeez thats one hell of a guide book!

9/11
London Bombings
Lockerbie
Glasgow Airport
ect ect ect
All Read The Koran and followed its beliefs
Do not Drink Alchohol..........They Do!
They aint allowed to Gamble........They Do
And as Long as they treat them all the same they are allowed to have 5 wives!!!!!!
Jeeeeeez thats one hell of a guide book!

i'll see your london and lockerbie, and I'll raise you an Omagh, a warrington, and a birmingham, and trump you with a hyde park corner, a tower of london and an oxford street.

"All Read The Koran and followed its beliefs" erm....actually, I think you'll find that's a cartload of Bull...

They may have read the Qur'an, but, in the Qur'an it's expressly forbidden to commit suicide. that's not following the beliefs of the Qur'an.

Also, NO muslim is permited five wives. he is permitted up to four, but there are strict rules about it.

In the UK, polygamy isn't allowed, although, if the marriage has taken place in a country where polygamy is permitted, the marriage may be recognised in the UK.

Under Qur'anic rules, (you are correct in that comment!) a man can only take a further wife if he can afford to do so, and support the wife. The second and subsequent wives must be treated exactly the same as the first wife, with no favouritism, either to the wife (whichever wife she is, in the "order" of marriage), or the children of that marriage.

Do not Drink Alchohol..........They Do! in the bible, it supposedly says not to drink. (paul, in 1 timothy 5 v 23 permits timothy to "take a little wine for the sake of your stomach" ) how many so-called christians go out and get bladdered on friday and saturday night?

In the 10 comandments, it says "thou shalt not steal.. how many thieves classify themselves as being christian? it also says "thou shalt not commit adultery"... can you say "Jimmy Swaggart" or "Jim Bakker". thou shalt not murder... many christians have committed murder.

<snip> thou shalt not murder... many christians have committed murder.

They "say" they are Christians? :)

I thought (I don't actually "believe") souls went straight to heaven in Christianity too, where do they go then if it's not to Heaven (or Hell) ?

Stocksbridge bypass I think

They "say" they are Christians? :)

Just as you 'say' you're a Christian.

That Grahame, they'd say - when'd he ever murder folk? He's no true Christian!

I went down to the second hand bookshop at the weekend as planned and enquired if they had any copies of the koran but unfortunatley the had sold their only copy earlier that week.

On the upside, the very helpful chap behind the counter was a muslim and told me to go to the mosque where they'd be happy to give me a copy for free.

I know for sure some of our mutual friends have copies, why not borrow one of theirs?

Just as you 'say' you're a Christian.

That Grahame, they'd say - when'd he ever murder folk? He's no true Christian!

In Christianity the Bible tells us it is wrong to kill and it is part of the Ten Commandments. As you know words are cheap and people can say whatever they like but the proof of the pudding is in the eating, meaning actions speak louder than words. You can tell a person by what they do. Jesus said: -

“Every tree is known by the fruit it bears;…A good person brings good out of the treasure of good things in his heart; a bad person brings forth evil."


According to the Encyclopedia Britannica this is Islam: -

Offences against the person, from homicide to assault, are punishable by retaliation (qiṣāṣ), the offender being subject to precisely the same treatment as his victim. But this type of offence is regarded as a civil injury rather than a crime in the technical sense, since it is not the state but only the victim or his family who have the right to prosecute and to opt for compensation or blood money (diyah) in place of retaliation.

For six specific crimes the punishment is fixed (ḥadd): death for apostasy and for highway robbery; amputation of the hand for theft; death by stoning for extramarital sex relations (zinā) where the offender is a married person and 100 lashes for unmarried offenders; 80 lashes for an unproved accusation of unchastity (qadhf) and for the drinking of any intoxicant.

Outside the ḥadd crimes, both the determination of offences and the punishment therefore lies with the discretion of the executive or the courts.

In Christianity the Bible tells us it is wrong to kill and it is part of the Ten Commandments. As you know words are cheap and people can say whatever they like but the proof of the pudding is in the eating, meaning actions speak louder than words. You can tell a person by what they do. Jesus said: -

“Every tree is known by the fruit it bears;…A good person brings good out of the treasure of good things in his heart; a bad person brings forth evil."


According to the Encyclopedia Britannica this is Islam: -

Offences against the person, from homicide to assault, are punishable by retaliation (qiṣāṣ), the offender being subject to precisely the same treatment as his victim. But this type of offence is regarded as a civil injury rather than a crime in the technical sense, since it is not the state but only the victim or his family who have the right to prosecute and to opt for compensation or blood money (diyah) in place of retaliation.

For six specific crimes the punishment is fixed (ḥadd): death for apostasy and for highway robbery; amputation of the hand for theft; death by stoning for extramarital sex relations (zinā) where the offender is a married person and 100 lashes for unmarried offenders; 80 lashes for an unproved accusation of unchastity (qadhf) and for the drinking of any intoxicant.

Outside the ḥadd crimes, both the determination of offences and the punishment therefore lies with the discretion of the executive or the courts.

Ok, Grahame, you've only focussed on certain aspects of Islam, eg the death penalty.

Surely that article you have quoted from also backs up my points, about suicide being a "sin", and haram in Islam, and confirms my points about second and subsequent marriages?

does it also go into the laws on warfare, (eg that civillians, the young and the elderlynot being legitimate targets? doesn't it teach in islam that, in warfare, things like crops and livestock should not be destroyed? etc

what about the compassion in Islam? giving to the needy? feeding and "watering" of strangers?

whats it about?

10,000 pages.:hihi:

there used to be some great debates on here, i used to really enjoy it. i suppose its a case of topics becoming reptitive and being spoilt by people who have blinkered narrow minded views (stand up and take a bow grahame and bago to mention 2), that you just cant debate with.

i dont really bother with serious debate on here anymore..

this article talks about compassion,

http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/15122001/1512200144.htm

"The Qur’an again and again shows its sympathy for the weaker sections of the society in which it includes, among others, the orphans, the widows, the poor and the exploited, the slaves and other politically or socially and economically oppressed people. It emphasises different ways of helping them. This is all on the grounds of compassion. Compassion really means sensitivity to others suffering. A person cannot be compassionate unless he/she is sensitive to others suffering. And this suffering includes, as we will show, not only human beings but also animals and plants."

Also from the same article:-

"This is a great pity that Muslims themselves except the sufis and their followers have forgotten the emphasis of the Holy Qur’an on the quality of compassion. The Sufis lay tremendous stress on compassion. Their very fundamental doctrine is what is called sulh-i-kul i.e. peace with all which means no violence and no aggressiveness. The majority of Muslims of course follow sufi approach. It is only some frustrated fringe groups of Muslims who keep on talking of jihad and power.

It is important to note that in Qur’an there is no concept of war of aggression and no concept of permissiveness of violence. Even where permission of war has been given it has been given to defend and protect rights of the oppressed and exploited, and not for achieving power. There is no verse in the Qur’an which permits violence for conquering territory or for achieving power. In fact war has been qualified in the Qur’an by the words fi’ sabilillah i.e. in the way of Allah. Thus a war can be fought, if at all necessary, not for any personal ambitions or for grabbing territory or for personal animosity or for revenge but only in the way of Allah."

Ok, Grahame, you've only focussed on certain aspects of Islam, eg the death penalty.

Surely that article you have quoted from also backs up my points, about suicide being a "sin", and haram in Islam, and confirms my points about second and subsequent marriages?

does it also go into the laws on warfare, (eg that civillians, the young and the elderlynot being legitimate targets? doesn't it teach in islam that, in warfare, things like crops and livestock should not be destroyed? etc

what about the compassion in Islam? giving to the needy? feeding and "watering" of strangers?

I was replying to something you said about murder PT, I can look up the other points you mention if you would like me to.


There is a web site here if you are interested about Islam
http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/skm60428.htm

:|
Islam means 'Submissive' We have never been known as a people to surrender so I think that, with a few exceptions they are barking up the wrong tree

Submissive only to Allah!!!!

9/11
London Bombings
Lockerbie
Glasgow Airport
ect ect ect
All Read The Koran and followed its beliefs
Do not Drink Alchohol..........They Do!
They aint allowed to Gamble........They Do
And as Long as they treat them all the same they are allowed to have 5 wives!!!!!!
Jeeeeeez thats one hell of a guide book!

So.....have you read it?

If not, just say 'No' and stay on topic rather than get in to a rant about Islam.

Thanks.

I was replying to something you said about murder PT, I can look up the other points you mention if you would like me to.


There is a web site here if you are interested about Islam
http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/skm60428.htm

there are many errors in the text contained in that link, grahame. Much spin, much misquoted material, and taken horrendously out of context.

I also say that it seems clear to me that the author has an "agenda" against Islam, instead of being tolerant, and accepting that there are different faiths that folk will follow.

So.....have you read it?

If not, just say 'No' and stay on topic rather than get in to a rant about Islam.

Thanks.

For them to perpetuate the errors, they can't have read it, or they would not still believe that a Muslim man can have five wives.

10,000 pages.:hihi:
lot of bog paper there then

I was replying to something you said about murder PT, I can look up the other points you mention if you would like me to.


There is a web site here if you are interested about Islam
http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/skm60428.htm

Grahame, considering your stated views elsewhere on Mosaic Law and inerrancy in the bible it does seem utterly bizarre that you should be taking issue with Islam, when your own views correlate fairly well with the more reactionary of those in Islam :huh:

There is much value in Islam as there is in Christianity. I particularly like this passage:
[2:62] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

This level of tolerance in the Koran allows people like the Rev. Ann Holmes Redding to say they are both Christian and Muslim. (Ref) (http://geoconger.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/us-priest-says-islam-christianity-united-cen-60807-p1/)

Whilst things like the Trinity are a little problematic, the Trinity was originally heresy for early Christians like Ireneus and so disbelief in the Trinity is not necessarily mutually exclusive with Islam.

Grahame, considering your stated views elsewhere on Mosaic Law and inerrancy in the bible it does seem utterly bizarre that you should be taking issue with Islam, when your own views correlate fairly well with the more reactionary of those in Islam :huh:

There is much value in Islam as there is in Christianity. I particularly like this passage:
[2:62] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

This level of tolerance in the Koran allows people like the Rev. Ann Holmes Redding to say they are both Christian and Muslim. (Ref) (http://geoconger.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/us-priest-says-islam-christianity-united-cen-60807-p1/)

Whilst things like the Trinity are a little problematic, the Trinity was originally heresy for early Christians like Ireneus and so disbelief in the Trinity is not necessarily mutually exclusive with Islam.

You are misquoting. This is what it really says. (SHAKIR) "Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in ALLAH and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve."

They want Christians and Jews and everyone to believe in the Islamic Allah, otherwise we are all infidells.

This is what the Quran says about those who do not believe in Allah.
(009.111 SHAKIR) "Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on Him in the Taurat and the Injeel and the Quran; and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge which you have made; and that is the mighty achievement."

Well shiver mi timbers,thought it was FIVE wives not only FOUR.......The poor Buggers,gotta feel sorry for em aint ya,is probably why they got so much money (just imagine how much benefit they recieve with 4......FOUR wives and god knows how many kids)!!!

You are misquoting. This is what it really says. (SHAKIR) "Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in ALLAH and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve."

They want Christians and Jews and everyone to believe in the Islamic Allah, otherwise we are all infidells.

This is what the Quran says about those who do not believe in Allah.
(009.111 SHAKIR) "Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on Him in the Taurat and the Injeel and the Quran; and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge which you have made; and that is the mighty achievement."


with the greatest respect, Grahame, that's "Bull!"

Allah, the Islamic God, is the "God" of Abraham/ Jews/ Christians. God is one and the same. look at the name of God in Arabic:- Allah. Look at the name of God in Hebrew:- Ellell... how different are they? well, they aren't. not at all different. They have the same root, (it's like Ibrahim/ Abraham, Yitsak/ isaac, Ismail/ Ishmael. addam/ adham. it's like the words that a Muslim says when he wishes peace, by saying "Salaam Aleikum" in hebrew, what would we say? "Shalom Alecheim".

Islam comes from Abraham through his oldest son, Ishmael. Judaism, and Christianity come from Abraham through his younger son, Isaac. Do you honestly think that a man (regarded as a prophet in the three Abrahamic faiths) who was, according to both the Qur'an and the Torah, (the old testament) as being particularly pious, a man who "knew" the heart of God would teach one of his precious, and longed-for sons to worship an idol, a moon-god, whilst simultaneously teaching the other son that there is but one God?

(as a Christian, will you look at the "Shema" the call to prayer, of the Jew. What the Jew declares is "Hear, O Israel! The Lord thy God is One. Thou shalt worship the lord thy god with all of thy heart, all of thy soul, all of thy strength".

How does a Muslim start his call to prayer? "La illah-lil'ullah" :- I declare that there is no God but God, and only He is worthy of worship" there we have it. the declarations of faith do not differ..

Please, explain to me how these calls/ creeds differ?

with the greatest respect, Grahame, that's "Bull!"

Allah, the Islamic God, is the "God" of Abraham/ Jews/ Christians. God is one and the same. look at the name of God in Arabic:- Allah. Look at the name of God in Hebrew:- Ellell... how different are they? well, they aren't. not at all different. They have the same root, (it's like Ibrahim/ Abraham, Yitsak/ isaac, Ismail/ Ishmael. addam/ adham. it's like the words that a Muslim says when he wishes peace, by saying "Salaam Aleikum" in hebrew, what would we say? "Shalom Alecheim".

Islam comes from Abraham through his oldest son, Ishmael. Judaism, and Christianity come from Abraham through his younger son, Isaac. Do you honestly think that a man (regarded as a prophet in the three Abrahamic faiths) who was, according to both the Qur'an and the Torah, (the old testament) as being particularly pious, a man who "knew" the heart of God would teach one of his precious, and longed-for sons to worship an idol, a moon-god, whilst simultaneously teaching the other son that there is but one God?

(as a Christian, will you look at the "Shema" the call to prayer, of the Jew. What the Jew declares is "Hear, O Israel! The Lord thy God is One. Thou shalt worship the lord thy god with all of thy heart, all of thy soul, all of thy strength".

How does a Muslim start his call to prayer? "La illah-lil'ullah" :- I declare that there is no God but God, and only He is worthy of worship" there we have it. the declarations of faith do not differ..

Please, explain to me how these calls/ creeds differ?

Which of the three "equal" creeds do you believe in?

Well shiver mi timbers,thought it was FIVE wives not only FOUR.......The poor Buggers,gotta feel sorry for em aint ya,is probably why they got so much money (just imagine how much benefit they recieve with 4......FOUR wives and god knows how many kids)!!!

It is a better man than me that can deal with 4 mother-in-laws :hihi:

It is a better man than me that can deal with 4 mother-in-laws :hihi:

A scary concept!

But less scary if you are religiously allowed to keep them in sacks and beat them up if they venture an opinion on anything.

Which of the three "equal" creeds do you believe in?

I am a Deist, I believe in God, I believe in One God.

That does not mean, however that I cannot acceppt that folk can, and do, believe in many gods, one god, or no god at all.

Does that answer your question?

You are misquoting. This is what it really says. (SHAKIR) "Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in ALLAH and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve."

They want Christians and Jews and everyone to believe in the Islamic Allah, otherwise we are all infidells.

This is what the Quran says about those who do not believe in Allah.
(009.111 SHAKIR) "Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on Him in the Taurat and the Injeel and the Quran; and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge which you have made; and that is the mighty achievement."

There is plenty worse that is in the bible that I can quote back to you. Of course the quotes about slavery, genocide, suppression of women, religious intolerance, death penalty etc. can all be sidestepped if you accept that the bible isn't inerrant. Which fortunately most Christians do accept.

Similarly Islam has a long tradition of interpretation of its scriptures with its teachings being interpreted in different ways. For example, Abu Hanifah the founder of the oldest Sunni school taught that whilst wine was prohibited alcoholic drinks brewed from grains were ok, so long as not drunk to intoxication. There are feminist strands to Islam, and there are homosexuals in Islam. Queer Jihad estimate 5% of the Islamic population is homosexual (Ref) (http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_isla3.htm).

Not everyone takes their Scriptures literally. And even those that do profess a literalist inerrancy manage for the most part to ignore the more barbaric passages whatever religion they follow.

As Richard Bulliet puts it "Jim Jones, David Koresh and Meir Kahane do not typify Christianity and Judaism in the eyes of the civilized West, but those same eyes are prone to see Osama bin Laden and Mullah Muhammad Omar as typifying Islam,"

I am a Deist, I believe in God, I believe in One God.

That does not mean, however that I cannot acceppt that folk can, and do, believe in many gods, one god, or no god at all.

Does that answer your question?

No, it does not answer the question.

Are you a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, or something else you made up yourself?

No, it does not answer the question.

Are you a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, or something else you made up yourself?

Deist is a perfectly good answer. If you don't know what it means you could look it up.

It certainly isn't made up. It is a tradition of belief that evolved in Europe from trying to reconcile Christianity with the diversity of beliefs discovered during the Renaissance in particular but not exclusively Confucianism. It is however no more Christian than it is Zoroastrian.

Almost all the important Philosophers of the enlightenment are associated with Deism. Whilst its popularity has declined it is still around. Einstein, for example, is probably best described as a Deist (Ref) (http://www.einsteinandreligion.com/prayer.html) and there are plenty of Deist websites (http://www.deistalliance.org/).

At end of the Day it dont matter whether u read the Koran,the Bible,the Sun or the Beano.Religion is the cause of so much death and hatred and no one.....NO ONE out of the millions of people on earth can prove that ANY god exsists,be it God,Allah or David Beckham!!
Read whatever "book" u want and believe in whatever garbage someone with a hook for a hand rants about from a street in London,there is NO proof a god exists!!!
Anyone see him in the next few days take a pic.....willl make a fortune!!!

Deleted by me as it was in reply to other posters and not strictly on the theme of whether I have read the Koran, even though l have. I will save the posts for a more general debate on Islam.

.

The same as above.

.

At end of the Day it dont matter whether u read the Koran,the Bible,the Sun or the Beano.Religion is the cause of so much death and hatred and no one.....NO ONE out of the millions of people on earth can prove that ANY god exsists,be it God,Allah or David Beckham!!
Read whatever "book" u want and believe in whatever garbage someone with a hook for a hand rants about from a street in London,there is NO proof a god exists!!!
Anyone see him in the next few days take a pic.....willl make a fortune!!!

The point is faith.
Islam is all about being nice to others. Old hooky and his daft mates are bad muslims.

The point is faith.
Islam is all about being nice to others. Old hooky and his daft mates are bad muslims.

Old hooky as you call him, and I am glad you do because I have forgotten his real name, used to quote the Quran as his authority in the diatribes he delivered. He was very well versed in the Koran and he was a very unpleasant character, so when you say Islam is about being nice to people can you give me the references from the Koran about being nice to people of other faiths, because I haven't seen any and I look to you for enlightenment.

Thanks. :)

Old hooky as you call him, and I am glad you do because I have forgotten his real name, used to quote the Quran as his authority in the diatribes he delivered. He was very well versed in the Koran and he was a very unpleasant character, so when you say Islam is about being nice to people can you give me the references from the Koran about being nice to people of other faiths, because I haven't seen any and I look to you for enlightenment.

Thanks. :)

enlightenment in this verse, grahame... (for a start)

"And argue not with the people of the Book (Christians and Jews) except by what is best, save such of them as act unjustly. But say: We believe in that which has been revealed to you, and our God and your God is one, and to Him we submit.” (Holy Qur'an surah 29:46)

from the web article "Da'wah or Dialogue":-

The Qur’anic verse 3:63 represents true spirit of Islam in this respect: “O People of the Book, come to an equitable word between us and you that we shall serve none but Allah and that we associate no partners with Him, and that some of us shall not take others for lords besides Allah. But if they turn away, then say: bear witness, we are Muslims” (Holy Qur'an, 3:63)...

...Islam teaches Muslims to live in peace with others, including religious, linguistic, racial or national other. The Qur’anic verses like 5:48 or 4:35 or 22:40 or 30:22 or 6:109 are very important in this respect. In fact the verse 5:48 throws challenge to us to live with plurality of faith and laws and the Qur’anic emphasis is on excelling the other in good deeds and not competing with the other in religious rituals or ways of worshipping. Thus Qur’an accepts diversity as given, as the Will of Allah rather than rejecting it.

For a good Muslim living with diversity in a spirit of tolerance should be a commitment and he/she should fulfil this commitment for pleasure of Allah. A Muslim should also continuously enter into dialogue with wisdom with the other to promote the Will of Allah. Millions of Muslims today live as religious minority in countries of Asia, Africa, North America and elsewhere. Everywhere, whether in majority or minority they should become active agents of promoting better understanding among diverse faith, linguistic, racial or cultural groups.

If Muslims actively involve themselves in fulfilling this duty world will be much better place to live in. Living in peace and harmony is as important a duty as believing in unity of Allah (wahdaniyyah). Tawhid (belief in unity of God) is not only a theological concept but it is also a sociological concept. On sociological level the concept of tawhid results in unity of whole humankind as His creation. Qur’an often addresses humankind as nas (people) bani Adam (children of Adam) which emphasises this sense of human unity. Thus the Qur’anic concept of tawhid is all inclusive concept.

Thus unity and sense of inclusiveness can be promoted only by promoting the spirit of dialogue and spirit of tolerance. It is real spirit of tawhid"

(with grateful thanks to the Milli Gazette)

Old hooky as you call him, and I am glad you do because I have forgotten his real name, used to quote the Quran as his authority in the diatribes he delivered. He was very well versed in the Koran and he was a very unpleasant character, so when you say Islam is about being nice to people can you give me the references from the Koran about being nice to people of other faiths, because I haven't seen any and I look to you for enlightenment.

Thanks. :)

isnt there a quote aboout respecting other people of the book, meaning other religous people?

isnt there a quote aboout respecting other people of the book, meaning other religous people?

you are correct, Preacherman...
the first verse from the Qur'an in my post (above ) is that very verse:-

"And argue not with the people of the Book except by what is best, save such of them as act unjustly. But say: We believe in that which has been revealed to you, and our God and your God is one, and to Him we submit.” (Holy Qur'an surah 29:46)

oh yeah, i tend not to bother reading long religous verses...

enlightenment in this verse, grahame... (for a start)

"And argue not with the people of the Book (Christians and Jews) except by what is best, save such of them as act unjustly. But say: We believe in that which has been revealed to you, and our God and your God is one, and to Him we submit.” (Holy Qur'an surah 29:46) <snip>


This is what I mean PT. All those references you posted tell Christians and Jews not to argue with the book, i.e. the book of Islam, but to submit to Allah.

My question was "What is there in the Koran about being nice to people of other faiths?"

The Koran says you submit to Allah or else. :(

This is what I mean PT. All those references you posted tell Christians and Jews not to argue with the book, i.e. the book of Islam, but to submit to Allah.

My question was "What is there in the Koran about being nice to people of other faiths?"

The Koran says you submit to Allah or else. :(

i read that quote as the 3 religions sharing the same gob by a different name (which is true isnt it), and respecting jews and christians because of this fact.

and can you tell us whats nice about the old testament? i could be a preacher and talk about plagues and smiting and people would question christianity..

i read that quote as the 3 religions sharing the same gob by a different name (which is true isnt it), and respecting jews and christians because of this fact.

and can you tell us whats nice about the old testament? i could be a preacher and talk about plagues and smiting and people would question christianity..

You raise a couple of points Preacher man and I will go into the detail of why Allah is not the same God as the God of Christians and Jews at a later date if you wish.

To answer your question about the Old Testament there is much in it that is both nice and not so nice and if you study the Koran carefully you will find that Islam contains much of the Old Testament teaching i.e. an eye for an eye etc.

As a Christian I follow the teaching of Jesus Christ who told us to love our neighbour and even went so far as to tell us to love our enemy. This is a far cry from Islam that is very harsh both to its own people and as for those who refuse to submit to Allah they talk about slaying us. :(

I don't see the point in reading any holy book that is open to such a ridiculously vast range of interpretations.

If I read an organic farmhouse cookbook, and it tells me rear livestock with respect, thats what I do. I don't throw stones at it and accuse them of being a whore.

EDIT: I have actually read parts of the Qu'ran, but gave up in favour of "THE NON LEAGUE
FOOTBALL GROUNDS OF GREAT BRITAIN", which is a homage to my own personal religion.

Those chickens have loose morals which must be stamped down on.

have you actually read the quoran graheme? and i mean a decent version, not off some christina website or publication with a biased view?

As a Christian I follow the teaching of Jesus Christ who told us to love our neighbour and even went so far as to tell us to love our enemy. This is a far cry from Islam that is very harsh both to its own people and as for those who refuse to submit to Allah they talk about slaying us. :(

1. What if my neighbour is Peter Sutcliffe. Or Paris Hilton?

2. Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the bible suggest that any non-believers or heretics will burn in the fires of hell? If not, the Catholic Church certainly made a few groats from the ignorant masses over the years using this pretence.

have you actually read the quoran graheme? and i mean a decent version, not off some christina website or publication with a biased view?

There is only one Quran isn't there? I read the one that Andrew posted a URL to and I have downloaded it in ebook form to my computer.

1. What if my neighbour is Peter Sutcliffe. Or Paris Hilton?

2. Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the bible suggest that any non-believers or heretics will burn in the fires of hell? If not, the Catholic Church certainly made a few groats from the ignorant masses over the years using this pretence.

You have to love them, and for me Hell is where God is absent.

You raise a couple of points Preacher man and I will go into the detail of why Allah is not the same God as the God of Christians and Jews at a later date if you wish.

To answer your question about the Old Testament there is much in it that is both nice and not so nice and if you study the Koran carefully you will find that Islam contains much of the Old Testament teaching i.e. an eye for an eye etc.

As a Christian I follow the teaching of Jesus Christ who told us to love our neighbour and even went so far as to tell us to love our enemy. This is a far cry from Islam that is very harsh both to its own people and as for those who refuse to submit to Allah they talk about slaying us. :(

I have already explained about how the "Allah" of Islam, and the "Ellel" of the Jews and , Christians are the same. which bit of my explanation could you not read for your blinkers?

WRT your second paragraph:- What "harshness" toward non Muslims? Under Islam, non-muslims were protected, by laws against interference.

They were protected against forcible conversion. (look, in comparison, at the Inquisition, or the massacre of Jews in York in the C13 or comapre it with the Crusades, where the "christians" were guilty of indiscriminate slaughter, of Muslim, Jew and even their fellow Christian)

Certainly had to be some money-making in there somewhere. I think the Catholic church of Rome is probably one of the wealthiest institutions I know of, in terms of assets.

On the other hand, at least they maintain the Musei Vaticani, Basilica di San Pietro (the largest religious building in the world, worth a look) Notre Dame, that one at Les Halles I forgot the name of, Milan and Seville cathedrals, St. Paul's and Westminster cathedral and a huge number of other great works of architecture for people who like grandiose things (such as I) to go and explore.

I have already explained about how the "Allah" of Islam, and the "Ellel" of the Jews and , Christians are the same. which bit of my explanation could you not read for your blinkers?

WRT your second paragraph:- What "harshness" toward non Muslims? Under Islam, non-muslims were protected, by laws against interference.

They were protected against forcible conversion. (look, in comparison, at the Inquisition, or the massacre of Jews in York in the C13 or comapre it with the Crusades, where the "christians" were guilty of indiscriminate slaughter, of Muslim, Jew and even their fellow Christian)

"For six specific crimes the punishment is fixed (ḥadd): death for apostasy and for highway robbery; amputation of the hand for theft; death by stoning for extramarital sex relations (zinā) where the offender is a married person and 100 lashes for unmarried offenders; 80 lashes for an unproved accusation of unchastity (qadhf) and for the drinking of any intoxicant."

They stone people to death who have had extramarital sex relations. How would people in this country reconcile themselves to this?

Certainly had to be some money-making in there somewhere. I think the Catholic church of Rome is probably one of the wealthiest institutions I know of, in terms of assets.

On the other hand, at least they maintain the Musei Vaticani, Basilica di San Pietro (the largest religious building in the world, worth a look) Notre Dame, that one at Les Halles I forgot the name of, Milan and Seville cathedrals, St. Paul's and Westminster cathedral and a huge number of other great works of architecture for people who like grandiose things (such as I) to go and explore.

liverpools anglican cathedral is worth a look around, its size is just phenomanal! so much so the catholics decided they couldnt compete and built one in a modern design!!

"For six specific crimes the punishment is fixed (ḥadd): death for apostasy and for highway robbery; amputation of the hand for theft; death by stoning for extramarital sex relations (zinā) where the offender is a married person and 100 lashes for unmarried offenders; 80 lashes for an unproved accusation of unchastity (qadhf) and for the drinking of any intoxicant."

They stone people to death who have had extramarital sex relations. How would people in this country reconcile themselves to this?

it's only in the last forty years that this country refrained from imprisoning people who were guilty only of being Homosexual. how do you reconcile yourself to that?

Incidentally, of these punishments, e.g., having ones hand chopped off, for theft, how often is that actually the punishment delivered, in the countries governed by Shariah Law?

We see the documentary footage from the Taleban-ruled Afghanistan, where the woman is beheaded in the football arena, allegedly for adultery. However, this seems to be the only stock-footage/ proof of these sort of happenings, and seems to be rolled out, over and over, again and again, as supposed "evidence" of the brutality of Islam.

it's only in the last forty years that this country refrained from imprisoning people who were guilty only of being Homosexual. how do you reconcile yourself to that?

Incidentally, of these punishments, e.g., having ones hand chopped off, for theft, how often is that actually the punishment delivered, in the countries governed by Shariah Law?

We see the documentary footage from the Taleban-ruled Afghanistan, where the woman is beheaded in the football arena, allegedly for adultery. However, this seems to be the only stock-footage/ proof of these sort of happenings, and seems to be rolled out, over and over, again and again, as supposed "evidence" of the brutality of Islam.
It is their law PT. :(

liverpools anglican cathedral is worth a look around, its size is just phenomanal! so much so the catholics decided they couldnt compete and built one in a modern design!!

I have visited both Cathedrals in Liverpool, (I have rellies over there) and think that they are both absolutely stunning buildings, and have individual merits. The modern, bold architecture of "Paddy's Wigwam" ( :lol: ) with its beautiful serene, blue-lit (from the stained glass) interior is amazing, the Anglican Cathedral with it's "rosiness" from the stone, and it's awe-inspiring sheer size is also a beautiful sight to behold.

It is their law PT. :(

that's not an answer, Grahame.

that's not an answer, Grahame.

You tell that to them.

no, grahame, I'm asking it of you.

no, grahame, I'm asking it of you.

You and your friend had a right go at me for taking a stand against homosexuality, and now you are aligning yourself to Sharia law which is far stricter and harsher and yes these so called crimes are dealt with as-and-when they arise. I really don't understand your position here.

You and your friend had a right go at me for taking a stand against homosexuality, and now you are aligning yourself to Sharia law which is far stricter and harsher and yes these so called crimes are dealt with as-and-when they arise. I really don't understand your position here.

None of the muslims I know live by Sharia law.

None of the muslims I know live by Sharia law.

But I understand there is a movement to have Sharia law in Britain?

P.S. Would you describe your Muslim friends like many professing Christians who only have a nominal or non-existent faith?

Would you describe your Muslim friends like many professing Christians who only have a nominal or non-existent faith?

The majority of them go to mosques, all eat halal food, go through Ramadam etc, so I would not describe them as having a nominal or non-existent faith. None of them want Sharia law in Britain.

Faith in what?......Something that no one can prove exists,you might as well kneel in front of a cornish pastie and express undying commitment to it...at least u can see the pastie

And Islam is not all about being nice to others,its about religion,its about certain people following a religion that refuses to accept ANY other religion and its about TOTAL control,which is what they want.
If their religion is SO important to them why do they leave the country of their origins and move to a country that is profoundly christian based?
How many christians do you know who live in an Islamic country???
Have you ever heard of a christian flying a plane into a building in an islamic country???
Have you ever heard of a christian blowing themselves and countless others to pieces on a train or a bus in an islamic country???
And PT please dont reply to this because i dont respect your opinions,you are blinckered and for some reason trying to justify a belief that is WRONG.

The majority of them go to mosques, all eat halal food, go through Ramadam etc, so I would not describe them as having a nominal or non-existent faith. None of them want Sharia law in Britain.

Cheers for that. Dare I ask why they don't want Sharia law if it is part of Islam?

Cheers for that. Dare I ask why they don't want Sharia law if it is part of Islam?

As you know there are different parts of the Bilbe that contradict each other which often leads to different interpretations. I guess it is the same with the Koran.

As you know there are different parts of the Bilbe that contradict each other which often leads to different interpretations. I guess it is the same with the Koran.

I suppose, personally I put it down to misunderstanding.

One day I would really like to discuss what New Testament Christianity is really about, without all the bickering, and to try and reach a harmonious and unaminous agreement, if such a thing is possible. :D

Faith in what?......Something that no one can prove exists,you might as well kneel in front of a cornish pastie and express undying commitment to it...at least u can see the pastie

And Islam is not all about being nice to others,its about religion,its about certain people following a religion that refuses to accept ANY other religion and its about TOTAL control,which is what they want.
If their religion is SO important to them why do they leave the country of their origins and move to a country that is profoundly christian based?
How many christians do you know who live in an Islamic country???
Have you ever heard of a christian flying a plane into a building in an islamic country???
Have you ever heard of a christian blowing themselves and countless others to pieces on a train or a bus in an islamic country???
And PT please dont reply to this because i dont respect your opinions,you are blinckered and for some reason trying to justify a belief that is WRONG.

but christian america's actions are justified? from overthrowing legitamite regimes to instal usa friendly dictators (saddam), and having an foriegn economic policy of destroying local markets so its corporations can take over, reinventing the slave trade and having the blood of uncountless inocents on their hands...

I suppose, personally I put it down to misunderstanding.

One day I would really like to discuss what New Testament Christianity is really about, without all the bickering, and to try and reach a harmonious and unaminous agreement, if such a thing is possible. :D

Good luck to you, but if orthadox Christians, Catholics, Anglicans and what ever branches of Christianity cannot stop bickering and fail to reach a harmonious and unaminous agreement I doubt if Jesus himself could achieve that aim.

Good luck to you, but if orthadox Christians, Catholics, Anglicans and what ever branches of Christianity cannot stop bickering and fail to reach a harmonious and unaminous agreement I doubt if Jesus himself could achieve that aim.

Very true. :)

"How many christians do you know who live in an Islamic country???"

There are actually quite a lot of British people living in Saudi Arabia (Jim Davidson for one) and Bahrain, for example, many of whom I am sure would consider themselves Christians.

"Have you ever heard of a christian flying a plane into a building in an islamic country???
Have you ever heard of a christian blowing themselves and countless others to pieces on a train or a bus in an islamic country???"

I have certainly, growing up in Northern Ireland, heard of plenty of Christians prepared to blow people from a different version of Christianity up. I think if you are attempting to argue that Muslims have a monopoly on terrorism then that is a non-starter.

"Cheers for that. Dare I ask why they don't want Sharia law if it is part of Islam?"

Just as a Christian can consider adultery to be a sin, without campaigning for it to be illegal.

There is an interesting article in the Telegraph about Sharia law.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/02/19/nsharia19.xml

Faith in what?......Something that no one can prove exists,you might as well kneel in front of a cornish pastie and express undying commitment to it...at least u can see the pastie

And Islam is not all about being nice to others,its about religion,its about certain people following a religion that refuses to accept ANY other religion and its about TOTAL control,which is what they want.
If their religion is SO important to them why do they leave the country of their origins and move to a country that is profoundly christian based?
How many christians do you know who live in an Islamic country???
Have you ever heard of a christian flying a plane into a building in an islamic country???
Have you ever heard of a christian blowing themselves and countless others to pieces on a train or a bus in an islamic country???
And PT please dont reply to this because i dont respect your opinions,you are blinckered and for some reason trying to justify a belief that is WRONG.

this is a free country, and the forum doesn't have many restrictions on who can and who can't answer a post, if they aren't subjected to a ban...

so I will answer your points, one by one, thanks...

And Islam is not all about being nice to others,its about religion,its about certain people following a religion that refuses to accept ANY other religion and its about TOTAL control,which is what they want.

NO, look at the comments I have previously made, in this thread about tolerance in Islam


If their religion is SO important to them why do they leave the country of their origins and move to a country that is profoundly christian based?

because most Muslims in the UK, just like with the carribean immigrants, came from former colonies, like Pakistan, and Bangladesh, and many came over here as a result of a drive in the 40's 50's and 60's to do menial tasks, that the white man thought beneath him.

it was nothing to do with their religion.

Why did the European man go to places like india, africa, south america etc, to colonise, when most religions were polytheistic, or pagan ("heathens" as they so kindly dubbed them) and most certainly not Christan, back then?

How many christians do you know who live in an Islamic country???

Plenty. My uncle, for one... He worked on the oil plants, in Saudi. My schoolfriend whose parents resettled back in the UK after being Missionaries.. Is that enough, or should I get the Phone directory, and name every one of the non-muslims in arabic/ muslim countries? next question?


Have you ever heard of a christian flying a plane into a building in an islamic country???
What's that got to do with anything and the price of eggs? 911 was a one-off, thank god, perpetrated by misguided and angry people. I do not condone it in any way or consider it representative of islam. I challenge you to show me any other Muslims who have hijacked a plane, and flown it into a building... BEFORE or SINCE...?

Have you ever heard of a christian blowing themselves and countless others to pieces on a train or a bus in an islamic country???

not in an Islamic country, , but I've heard of plenty of christians blowing trains up in places like Spain (can you say "ETA, the Basque Seperatist Group"?). I know of plenty of christians who are guilty of bombing people sat innocently in a pub, (think the IRA, in Birmingham, think that cretinous BNP supporter Copeland, who bombed the Nelson in London killing a pregnant newlywed and her unborn child. I know of plenty of christians who thought it big and clever to drag a group of british soldiers out of their car in Northern Ireland, and Batter them to death. I know of plenty of Christians who thought it appropriate to set off a bomb at a remembrance day RELIGIOUS SERVICE in Omagh.

May I have your next pointless and inflammatory question?

and by the way, briggy... I respect YOUR right to have an opinion on this matter, what is your problem that you do not respect my right to have mine?

I do not tell a Christian, a Muslim or a Jew that he cannot believe HIS faitih.

I don't tell a Pagan they cannot have theirs.

I do not demand that an Atheist believe, when he does not.

I live and let live.

PT. How do you reply to the charge that Islam plans world domination?

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4GGIH_en-GBGB238GB238&q=islam+take+over+world&meta=

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4GGIH_en-GBGB238GB238&q=islam+plans+world+domination&meta=

PT. How do you reply to the charge that Islam plans world domination?

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4GGIH_en-GBGB238GB238&q=islam+take+over+world&meta=

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4GGIH_en-GBGB238GB238&q=islam+plans+world+domination&meta=

I know PT can speak for himself, but surely Grahame you can form a better argument than that ?

I think as it stands it is easily countered with :

non-hierarchical submissive pacifists plan global domination (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=non-hierarchical+submissive+pacifists+plan+global+domi nation&spell=1)

or any other string of nouns I can put into a search engine.

:hihi:

PT. How do you reply to the charge that Islam plans world domination?

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4GGIH_en-GBGB238GB238&q=islam+take+over+world&meta=

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4GGIH_en-GBGB238GB238&q=islam+plans+world+domination&meta=

The fact that you typed in "islam+take+over+world" and "islam+plans+world+domination" does you and your views no favours what so ever. Earlier you said you would like to:

discuss the new testiment "without all the bickering, and to try and reach a harmonious and unaminous agreement"

Why can't you take this attitude towards other faiths?

I know PT can speak for himself, but surely Grahame you can form a better argument than that ?

I think as it stands it is easily countered with :

non-hierarchical submissive pacifists plan global domination (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=non-hierarchical+submissive+pacifists+plan+global+domi nation&spell=1)

or any other string of nouns I can put into a search engine.

:hihi:

I'm simply asking a question. I am having difficulty getting those pages you posted to load so I will have to reply generally and say there are people like the “World Health Organisation” that has world wide plans, but Islam is so violent it frightens me and I do not want England to be taken over by these people. What I'm saying has nothing to do with religion, any people of violence scare me half to death and we don't need more violence.

Look at this.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/74495/will_islamic_fanatics_take_over_the_world/

Do we want these scenes here?

I'm simply asking a question. I am having difficulty getting those pages you posted to load so I will have to reply generally and say there are people like the “World Health Organisation” that has world wide plans, but Islam is so violent it frightens me and I do not want England to be taken over by these people. What I'm saying has nothing to do with religion, any people of violence scare me half to death and we don't need more violence.

Look at this.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/74495/will_islamic_fanatics_take_over_the_world/

Do we want these scenes here?

as wildcat says, the keywords you have put into the search engine show that your bias is so skewed, that it rivals DNA for twist.

I have answered your questions, respectfully, frankly and openly, I have refuted your ludicrous allegations with facts, rather than conjecture, and yet you still will not listen to reason,

I've had enough now, I'm going to treat your bigotry with the contempt it deserves, and not even dignify it with an answer.

The fact that you typed in "islam+take+over+world" and "islam+plans+world+domination" does you and your views no favours what so ever. Earlier you said you would like to:

Why can't you take this attitude towards other faiths?

Wherever you see Islam in the world you see violence and when you see danger like say a car careering towards you, there is no other choice but to take some sort of action for your own safety and well being. In other words it is something that is being thrust on us as a nation and if we are not careful we won't have any say in the matter, and in our own country as well. It is frightening, there are already mosques, next will be sharia law. If you felt threatened like this, if a tiger was about to pounce on you wouldn't you want to do something about it?

as wildcat says, the keywords you have put into the search engine show that your bias is so skewed, that it rivals DNA for twist.

I have answered your questions, respectfully, frankly and openly, I have refuted your ludicrous allegations with facts, rather than conjecture, and yet you still will not listen to reason,

I've had enough now, I'm going to treat your bigotry with the contempt it deserves, and not even dignify it with an answer.

That's not an answer PT.

Wherever you see Islam in the world you see violence and when you see danger like say a car careering towards you, there is no other choice but to take some sort of action for your own safety and well being. In other words it is something that is being thrust on us as a nation and if we are not careful we won't have any say in the matter, and in our own country as well. It is frightening, there are already mosques, next will be sharia law. If you felt threatened like this, if a tiger was about to pounce on you wouldn't you want to do something about it?

Why do you judge all muslims by the action of a few.

Why do you judge all muslims by the action of a few.

A few months ago there was an art exhibition in which there was a chocolate effigy of Jesus. Christians protested and the exhibition was closed down but they didn't go on the rampage like the followers of Islam have done, and they didn't issue fatwas for the death of the artist as happened to the Dutch cartoonist and Salman Rushdie.

They will kill you if you disagree with them. What are they like?

A few months ago there was an art exhibition in which there was a chocolate effigy of Jesus. Christians protested and the exhibition was closed down but they didn't go on the rampage like the followers of Islam have done, and they didn't issue fatwas for the death of the artist as happened to the Dutch cartoonist and Salman Rushdie.

They will kill you if you disagree with them. What are they like?

I have disagreed with plenty of muslims, and have not suffered any death threats.

There are around 1 billion muslims on the planet, the vast majority want to live a quiet life true to themselves, their family and their understanding of their religon.

I'll ask you again, why do you judge all muslims by the action of a few.

I have disagreed with plenty of muslims, and have not suffered any death threats.

There are around 1 billion muslims on the planet, the vast majority want to live a quiet life true to themselves, their family and their understanding of their religon.

I'll ask you again, why do you judge all muslims by the action of a few.

Because they take their lead from the Koran that talks about slaying and stoning people even in the 21st century and all followers of Islam live their lives by the Quran, that means everyone.

Because they take their lead from the Koran that talks about slaying and stoning people even in the 21st century.

So you admit that you are fearful and dislike people because of their faith, even you do not know them. That's 1 billion people who you dislike and fear. You said earlier that you wanted to talk about what the new testiment means to you, is this what it means to you?

So you admit that you are fearful and dislike people because of their faith, even you do not know them. That's 1 billion people who you dislike and fear. You said earlier that you wanted to talk about what the new testiment means to you, is this what it means to you?

The New Testament teaches love for our neighbour and even our enemy and Jesus gave examples like the Good Samaritan to make his point.

The New Testament teaches love for our neighbour and even our enemy and Jesus gave examples like the Good Samaritan to make his point.

Can you not follow Jesus's teachings, or are you going to turn your back upon him and condem 1 billion people because of the actions of an evil few.

Are you not capable of following Jesus's teachngs, or are you going to turn your back upon him and condem 1 billion people because of the actions an evil few.

I shall follow the teaching of Jesus in "fear and trembling."

The New Testament teaches love for our neighbour and even our enemy and Jesus gave examples like the Good Samaritan to make his point.

Have you read anything that we have all posted about tolerance in Islam ??

How can you not understand that typifying Islam by the views of Osama bin Laden and Mullah Muhammad Omar, is exactly the same as typifying Christianity and Judeism by the views of Jim Jones, David Koresh or Meir Kahane ?

The sort of prejudice and intolerance that comes from the selective understanding of Islam leads to the beatings that were far too common when I was growing up in London. I had friends who were firebombed purely for the colour of their skin and their religion, and I am sorry but it gets me angry.

I don't know what more to say.

Read this Grahaeme...
http://www.towardspeace.com/stories/mates.html

take a few deep breaths and then reflect upon the meaning of :

of Christian love... perhaps this passage:

Romans 14:1-23 "Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him...One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind...But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ...Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way."

I shall follow the teaching of Jesus in "fear and trembling."

So that means no then, but you expect others to follow christianties teachings and condem them when they don't. Can't you see a contradiction here?

Have you read anything that we have all posted about tolerance in Islam ??

How can you not understand that typifying Islam by the views of Osama bin Laden and Mullah Muhammad Omar, is exactly the same as typifying Christianity and Judeism by the views of Jim Jones, David Koresh or Meir Kahane ?

The sort of prejudice and intolerance that comes from the selective understanding of Islam leads to the beatings that were far too common when I was growing up in London. I had friends who were firebombed purely for the colour of their skin and their religion, and I am sorry but it gets me angry.

I don't know what more to say.

Read this Grahaeme...
http://www.towardspeace.com/stories/mates.html

take a few deep breaths and then reflect upon the meaning of :

of Christian love... perhaps this passage:

Romans 14:1-23 "Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him...One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind...But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ...Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way."
That's fine and I am like the Christian boy in the story and I accept the passage of scripture you post.

So where in the Koran can you show me where it teaches tolerance to those who don't submit to Allah.

So that means no then, but you expect others to follow christianties teachings and condem them when they don't. Can't you see a contradiction here?

What do you mean it means no. It is a yes, I follow the teaching of Jesus Christ.

And you cannot show me where in the Koran it teaches tolerance towards the unbeliever. You want everything from me while you are not prepared to meet Christians half way. That says it all.

What do you mean it means no. It is a yes, I follow the teaching of Jesus Christ.

So now you do not fear and dislike 1 billion people because of their faith? If you go looking for hate you will find it.

So now you do not fear and dislike 1 billion people because of their faith? If you go looking for hate you will find it.

I think you are contradicting yourself.

Shouldn't tolerance be a two way street?

That's fine and I am like the Christian boy in the story and I accept the passage of scripture you post.

So where in the Koran can you show me where it teaches tolerance to those who don't submit to Allah.

My first or second post on page 4 or 5 had a reference. You said the reference wasn't to your god because in the translation you referred to God was called Allah.... Arabic for God. PT explained this to you in some detail and that the passage was about tolerance for all religions. Islam has historically been tolerant of other religions, with the holy land having been shared with other religions for centuries under Islamic protection despite the brutality of the crusades. I am sure there are many more quotes but I don't have the time for this now.

The fundamental point is all the muslims I have met and spoken to in this country are good people, I am sure there are some bad ones and we all know about the extremists BUT they are not typical.

People generally aren't obsessional about every single part of their religious texts. They are interpreted and adapted to fit their circumstances. Islam can accommodate homosexuality and it can accommodate feminism. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with the religion that cannot also be argued against any other religion.

It is particularly frustrating arguing with you when in the past you have defended Mosaic Law, which is no better than the worst bits of Sharia for a liberal like me.

My first or second post on page 4 or 5 had a reference. You said the reference wasn't to your god because in the translation you referred to God was called Allah.... Arabic for God. PT explained this to you in some detail and that the passage was about tolerance for all religions. Islam has historically been tolerant of other religions, with the holy land having been shared with other religions for centuries under Islamic protection despite the brutality of the crusades. I am sure there are many more quotes but I don't have the time for this now.

The fundamental point is all the muslims I have met and spoken to in this country are good people, I am sure there are some bad ones and we all know about the extremists BUT they are not typical.

People generally aren't obsessional about every single part of their religious texts. They are interpreted and adapted to fit their circumstances. Islam can accommodate homosexuality and it can accommodate feminism. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with the religion that cannot also be argued against any other religion.

It is particularly frustrating arguing with you when in the past you have defended Mosaic Law, which is no better than the worst bits of Sharia for a liberal like me.

As I say I follow the teaching of Jesus Christ.

I think you are contradicting yourself.

Shouldn't tolerance be a two way street?

Is that what Jesus taught, tolerance is a two way thing? Where have I contradicted myself?

Is that what Jesus taught, tolerance is a two way thing? Where have I contradicted myself?

So perhaps you can show me in the Koran where it teaches tolerance to what you call "Unbelievers."

So perhaps you can show me in the Koran where it teaches tolerance to what you call "Unbelievers."

Did Jesus teach that tolerance is a two way thing? And where did I contradict myself?

Allah is not the Christian God.

The same is NOT TRUE concerning Islam. They are not worshipping the same God as Jews and Christians. Let's look at the clear facts. Mohammad grew up in Mecca in Arabia, belonging to the Quraysh tribe in charge of idol worship at the Kabah shrine, containing the black stone and at least 360 idols.

The word for god or idol in Arabic is "ilah." Allah was the name for the main idol worshiped in Mecca. The name was probably originally derived from the two Arabic words "al" and "ilah", meaning "the god" or "the idol."

Allah was also used as THE PERSONAL NAME among the Arabs for the moon god. Its symbol was the crescent moon found on many idols from pre-Islamic Arabia. Every year there was a pilgrimage to Mecca to worship Allah at the black stone. People were taught to turn towards Mecca several times a day. One month every year, beginning and ending with the crescent moon, was dedicated to fasting.

Mohammad built upon all of these already known forms of idol worship. The only thing that was new was that Mohammad declared the pagan moon deity "Allah" to be the only true god and forbade the worship of all the other idols in Mecca. The basic confession within Islam is, "Allah is greater [greater than all the other idols]. There is no god but Allah and Mohammad is his prophet."

Professor Augustus H. Strong makes an accurate assessment in his "Systematic Theology" when he declares that Islam "is heathenism in monotheistic form." Mohammad simply took the chief deity within the pantheon in Arabia, and made it the only god, keeping the pagan practices associated with this idol worship.

http://contenderministries.org/islam/trueislam.php

What is the Koran, and whats it about? is it a thriller or a comedy?

whos the hero?

Where can I get a copy

Allah, the Moon god.

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-moon-god.htm

Grahame, do you not want to answer my questions?

Grahame, do you not want to answer my questions?

Answer my question and tell me why you worship the "pagan moon god."

Answer my question and tell me why you worship the "pagan moon god."

What are you on about, I am agnostic if it means anything? Anyway back to planet earth, You said:

I follow the teaching of Jesus Christ.

You then said:

Shouldn't tolerance be a two way street?

And you also said:

I think you are contradicting yourself.

So did Jesus think that tolerence should be a two way thing? And where have I contradicted myself?

Allah is not the Christian God.

<snip>

Professor Augustus H. Strong makes an accurate assessment in his "Systematic Theology" when he declares that Islam "is heathenism in monotheistic form." Mohammad simply took the chief deity within the pantheon in Arabia, and made it the only god, keeping the pagan practices associated with this idol worship.


I don't see the relevance of any of this. By the same argument Christianity comes from contributions Zoroastrianism (heaven and hell), the trinity comes from gnosticism (according to Ireneus), monotheism itself comes from Akhennatun. The religion even comes from hebrew traditions that were by no means simple from baptists and essenes. Early Christianity reflected these conflicts with Montanists, Marcionist, Gnostics, Arians, Adoptionists, Jewish Christians and Pauline Christians. By the time Christianity was unified it had incorporated Mithraism, Manicheism, and Helenistic philosophy. It is also argued that turning water into wine in John and the communium come from Bacchus.

I can go on, but it is not relevant. What is relevant is that Islam sees itself in the tradition of Abraham and of Jesus, both are incorporated and revered as Prophets. As such it forms part of the tradition that includes Christianity whether you like it or not.

So perhaps you can show me in the Koran where it teaches tolerance to what you call "Unbelievers."

"Let there be no compulsion in religion; truth stands out clear from error" (Sura 2.256)

"When the enemies of the Muslims kindle a fire for war, Allah extinguishes it. They strive to create disorder in earth, and Allah loves not those who create disorder." (Koran 28:78 )

[3.18]If they shall dispute with thee, then say: I have surrendered myself to God, as have they who follow me. Say to those who have received the Book, and to the common folk, [3.19]Do ye surrender yourselves unto God? If they become Muslims, then are they guided aright: but if they turn away -- thy duty is only preaching; and God's eye is on His servants.

Try looking on any Islamic site for an understanding of what the religion means, take this one for example.

http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com/the_pacifism_of_islam.html

Lets be honest, some lefties will defend this regressive, sexist, homophobic, death cult right up until the point they get their heads cut off as kaffirs.

Wake up lefties, islam is just to right of Hitler, and even the nazis eschewed suicide bombing..what you've got are the nazis combined with the worst of the wartime japs. And you are supporting this rubbish.

Lets be honest, some lefties will defend this regressive, sexist, homophobic, death cult right up until the point they get their heads cut off as kaffirs.

Wake up lefties, islam is just to right of Hitler, and even the nazis eschewed suicide bombing..what you've got are the nazis combined with the worst of the wartime japs. And you are supporting this rubbish.

Lets face facts, some people cannot see the sheer lunacy of tarring around 1 billion people with the same brush because of the actions of an evil few. To compound this insanity they also seem to think that if other people do not share their wisdom they must be some how be left wing terrorist supporting communists.

It is a strange world.

Lets face facts, some people cannot see the sheer lunacy of tarring around 1 billion people with the same brush because of the actions of an evil few. To compound this insanity they also seem to think that if other people do not share their wisdom they must be some how be left wing terrorist supporting communists.

It is a strange world.

Neatly put JFK.

Allah is not the Christian God.

The same is NOT TRUE concerning Islam. They are not worshipping the same God as Jews and Christians. Let's look at the clear facts. Mohammad grew up in Mecca in Arabia, belonging to the Quraysh tribe in charge of idol worship at the Kabah shrine, containing the black stone and at least 360 idols.

The word for god or idol in Arabic is "ilah." Allah was the name for the main idol worshiped in Mecca. The name was probably originally derived from the two Arabic words "al" and "ilah", meaning "the god" or "the idol."

Allah was also used as THE PERSONAL NAME among the Arabs for the moon god. Its symbol was the crescent moon found on many idols from pre-Islamic Arabia. Every year there was a pilgrimage to Mecca to worship Allah at the black stone. People were taught to turn towards Mecca several times a day. One month every year, beginning and ending with the crescent moon, was dedicated to fasting.

Mohammad built upon all of these already known forms of idol worship. The only thing that was new was that Mohammad declared the pagan moon deity "Allah" to be the only true god and forbade the worship of all the other idols in Mecca. The basic confession within Islam is, "Allah is greater [greater than all the other idols]. There is no god but Allah and Mohammad is his prophet."

Professor Augustus H. Strong makes an accurate assessment in his "Systematic Theology" when he declares that Islam "is heathenism in monotheistic form." Mohammad simply took the chief deity within the pantheon in Arabia, and made it the only god, keeping the pagan practices associated with this idol worship.

http://contenderministries.org/islam/trueislam.php

Hi you are not being unbiased in your reply nor are you giving all the facts. You are quoting my friend. Jesus christ or what ever is your foot note is kind of swaying in your belief! My husband will gladly meet you and not simply qoute as you have done! PM and make a time and date!

Hi you are not being unbiased in your reply nor are you giving all the facts. You are quoting my friend. Jesus christ or what ever is your foot note is kind of swaying in your belief! My husband will gladly meet you and not simply qoute as you have done! PM and make a time and date!
You on drugs or what.you are replying to different posts on different threads and not making any sense whatsoever

Lets face facts, some people cannot see the sheer lunacy of tarring around 1 billion people with the same brush because of the actions of an evil few. To compound this insanity they also seem to think that if other people do not share their wisdom they must be some how be left wing terrorist supporting communists.

It is a strange world.

Most Nazis were not evil. They just had to follow a foul regresive evil way of living or be rejected by their monkey socieity/. Like the muslims of today., we do them no favors by keeping in their cage.

Skipped right through your reply PT ,respect your right to voice an opinion,i just think your talkin crap!
Another terrorist attack has just been foiled at a German Airport,which was planned to CELEBRATE!!! the killing of thousands of innocent people in 9/11
Anyone got any ideas what "faith" they follow???

Lets face facts, some people cannot see the sheer lunacy of tarring around 1 billion people with the same brush because of the actions of an evil few. To compound this insanity they also seem to think that if other people do not share their wisdom they must be some how be left wing terrorist supporting communists.

It is a strange world.

"An evil few", which in Britain actually equals half the Mosques - half the Muslim population. Let's face facts outside Britain also it's a pretty putrid waste of space. Ask the Germans.

"An evil few", which in Britain actually equals half the Mosques - half the Muslim population. Let's face facts outside Britain also it's a pretty putrid waste of space. Ask the Germans.

So are you saying that half the muslim population in the UK are terrorists? You really think that there are around half a million terrorists here? Or are you saying the Mosques them selves are evil.

I thought that the German terror attacks were plannned by a tiny minority, not by the majority of muslims living in Germany.

So are you saying that half the muslim population in the UK are terrorists? You really think that there are around half a million terrorists here? Or are you saying the Mosques them selves are evil.


Have there been any surveys done regarding what percentage of muslims support or sympathise with the islamic terrorists?

Have there been any surveys done regarding what percentage of muslims support or sympathise with the islamic terrorists?

The ICM opinion poll also indicates that a fifth have sympathy with the "feelings and motives" of the suicide bombers who attacked London last July 7, killing 52 people, although 99 per cent thought the bombers were wrong to carry out the atrocity.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/02/19/nsharia19.xml

Most Nazis were not evil. They just had to follow a foul regresive evil way of living or be rejected by their monkey socieity/. Like the muslims of today., we do them no favors by keeping in their cage.

What rubbish. On the plus side, it's not quite as utterly repulsive as some of your other posts.

Lets be honest, some lefties will defend this regressive, sexist, homophobic, death cult right up until the point they get their heads cut off as kaffirs.

Wake up lefties, islam is just to right of Hitler, and even the nazis eschewed suicide bombing..what you've got are the nazis combined with the worst of the wartime japs. And you are supporting this rubbish.

Let's be honest - if you can't debate a topic sensibly, you will be suspended from this site.

Stop trying to stir up hatred.

Let's be honest - if you can't debate a topic sensibly, you will be suspended from this site.

Stop trying to stir up hatred.




Andrewchase is only stating his opinion.

I personally am worried about the growth of Islam in this country. and the impact it may have on out children/grandchildrens generation.

The lefties seem to live in their own dreamworld. They hate intolerance, yet Islam is the ultimate form of intolrance.

That post may be controvesial, and may even earn a ban. If it does, then so be it.

Freedom of speech, not everyone supports it.

The lefties seem to live in their own dreamworld.

I think it's this bit that most people have a problem with. You seem to be implying that if you're not a frothing anti-Islamist then you must be a leftie.

I know a good many people who have what could be described as right of centre views but they don't consider that all Muslims are terrorists or that their religion supports terrorism.

Andrewchase is only stating his opinion.

I personally am worried about the growth of Islam in this country. and the impact it may have on out children/grandchildrens generation.

The lefties seem to live in their own dreamworld. They hate intolerance, yet Islam is the ultimate form of intolrance.

That post may be controvesial, and may even earn a ban. If it does, then so be it.

Freedom of speech, not everyone supports it.

No, it won't earn a ban, but if you do try and stir up hatred on here it will.

Most Muslims that I've met are as tolerant or as intolerant as the rest of us. There are bigots of all creeds - Muslims, Christians, Atheists, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews.

What we won't put up with is people making posts designed to wind up the temperature.

This thread was kicked off with a specific intention and question - 'Has anyone read the Koran'.

It is not another 'Muslims are bad' thread - so if you haven't read it and don't want to read it, don't post here.

There - can't make it simpler than that.

just a curious question please nobody take any offense..
but i used to date a guy who is a muslim and did sort of flick through the book just out ofr curiosity, and i personally thought that the koran (Qu-oran, cant remember the true spelling soz!) contradicts itself ALOT!! in one case it says that men and women are equall right?? well why is it that men can have 5wives but women cant have 5 husbands?? that isnt being equall!!!

is it not true that there is good and bad in every culture.
but the koran does encourage voilence a little bit, in christianity (as far as i remember) says somewhere that if you are slapped on one cheek you give them the other, but in the koran they tell them to kill those on there land and to stone a woman to death if she is accused of adultery (NOT actually PROVEN guilty but just accused) and a muslim friend of mine told me that alot of young people are given a false statement that if they become marta's (suicide bombers) they will go to paradise and be met by either a hundred or a thousand virgin's... is this true??

is the koran a mans religion?? with woman following it only because thats how they were raised??!!

All the Abrahamic Religions are quite male-centered, even Judaism. There are no female prophets (at least I don't think they are) and whilst Christianity has Mary and Judaism has a number of strong female 'characters', for want of a better term, all of the faiths are pretty much male oriented.

Islam is probably the most overtly militaristic, although some aspects, like the meaning of Jihad, have tended to be distorted in the same way that some of the tenets of other religions have been bent out of shape. Having said that, Islam tolerated Christianity and Judaism in Medieval Spain for many years - taxes were imposed and there was a rule about not converting Muslims, but they did allow freedom of worship, which is probably more than Christian rulers did at the same poiint in History.

Adultery...What's important is to differentiate between what's in the Koran and what's been added to Muslim societies by things like Shariah Law. There IS a difference between a legal system based purely on the word of the Koran, and a system informed and based on the Koran and taking in to account the Hadiths (commentaries on the Koran).

I did a quick search:

"Those who commit adultery among your women, you must have four witnesses against them, from among you. If they do bear witness, then you shall keep such women in their homes until they die, or until GOD creates an exit for them. "

The latter phrase 'until GOD creates an exit' has been interpreted as meaning until a man will marry them.

"The couple who commits adultery shall be punished. If they repent and reform, you shall leave them alone. GOD is Redeemer, Most Merciful"

I can't find anything about capital punishment in teh Koran for adultery, but it has been introduced under Shariah Laws.

Interestingly enough, in the Old Testament Book of Deuteronomy, adultery IS punishable by death.

Someone stop me if I'm wrong here, BTW - but please point me at the relevant quote.

As for the martydom business - it's suppsoed to be 72 Virgins, but at the same time the Koran, like the Bible and the Torah, teaches against suicide.

Mod. Note

If you want posts to stay on here, please don't post stuff containing masked swearing, because I will remove it.

Thanks.

just a curious question please nobody take any offense..
but i used to date a guy who is a muslim and did sort of flick through the book just out ofr curiosity, and i personally thought that the koran (Qu-oran, cant remember the true spelling soz!) contradicts itself ALOT!! in one case it says that men and women are equall right?? well why is it that men can have 5wives but women cant have 5 husbands?? that isnt being equall!!!
is it not true that there is good and bad in every culture.
but the koran does encourage voilence a little bit, in christianity (as far as i remember) says somewhere that if you are slapped on one cheek you give them the other, but in the koran they tell them to kill those on there land and to stone a woman to death if she is accused of adultery (NOT actually PROVEN guilty but just accused) and a muslim friend of mine told me that alot of young people are given a false statement that if they become marta's (suicide bombers) they will go to paradise and be met by either a hundred or a thousand virgin's... is this true??

is the koran a mans religion?? with woman following it only because thats how they were raised??!!

I know, i know, I said I was out of the debate.

just to comment. (NB have joined both posts together for simplicity.)

1) The spellings Koran, or Qur'an are both acceptable, Qur'an is preferable, afaik

2) You obviously haven't read (or taken any notice of) anything that anyone else has posted in this thread, or you would have seen my explanation, earlier, correcting someone else's erroneous comment that a man is permitted to have 5 wives. it's not, it's up to 4 wives, but I also explained that there are conditons on taking second or subsequent wives.

3) Adultery... see JoeP's comment above this one about the penalty being stoning to death, in Christianity, but not in Qur'anic Islam..

4) It's most certainly NOT thousands of virgins for suicide bombers... it's only 72, and that for Martyrs, IIRC, not suicides, as suicide is forbidden in Islam.

5) Violence in Christianity:-

The old testament is full of violence and bloodshed (See the OT books of Exodus, Deuteronomy and Joshua for laws giving death penalty, and the mass slaughters committed on the peoples who lived in the lands the children of israel took over.

As for the martydom business - it's suppsoed to be 72 Virgins, but at the same time the Koran, like the Bible and the Torah, teaches against suicide.

And they all teach against fornication. Whatever, I wonder, is a young male suicide bomber supposed to do with 72 virgins ? :)

And they all teach against fornication. Whatever, I wonder, is a young male suicide bomber supposed to do with 72 virgins ? :)

cross his legs of course:cool:

cross his legs of course:cool:

I would have said 'lose count' - but this is a serious thread so a little less levity please :|;)

I would have said 'lose count' - but this is a serious thread so a little less levity please :|;)

If you say so, hmmm!!

I know, i know, I said I was out of the debate.

just to comment. (NB have joined both posts together for simplicity.)

1) The spellings Koran, or Qur'an are both acceptable, Qur'an is preferable, afaik

2) You obviously haven't read (or taken any notice of) anything that anyone else has posted in this thread, or you would have seen my explanation, earlier, correcting someone else's erroneous comment that a man is permitted to have 5 wives. it's not, it's up to 4 wives, but I also explained that there are conditons on taking second or subsequent wives.

3) Adultery... see JoeP's comment above this one about the penalty being stoning to death, in Christianity, but not in Qur'anic Islam..

4) It's most certainly NOT thousands of virgins for suicide bombers... it's only 72, and that for Martyrs, IIRC, not suicides, as suicide is forbidden in Islam.

5) Violence in Christianity:-

The old testament is full of violence and bloodshed (See the OT books of Exodus, Deuteronomy and Joshua for laws giving death penalty, and the mass slaughters committed on the peoples who lived in the lands the children of israel took over.

Excuse me PT, I wasn't going to say anything, but with reference to number 3 JoeP said, "I can't find anything about capital punishment in teh Koran for adultery, but it has been introduced under Shariah Laws."

You know perfectly well that in Christianity Jesus saved the life of the woman caught in adultery who was about to be stoned to death.

Some quranic verses to have a read of.

2.99, 2.121, 2.171, 3.48 ,5.53, 8.55, 9.28, 9.30, 98.6

Draw your own conclusions.

Excuse me PT, I wasn't going to say anything, but with reference to number 3 JoeP said, "I can't find anything about capital punishment in teh Koran for adultery, but it has been introduced under Shariah Laws."

You know perfectly well that in Christianity Jesus saved the life of the woman caught in adultery who was about to be stoned to death.

The Levitical laws (given in leviticus and deuteronomy) prescribe death for adulterers
in fact, lots of crimes carry the DP in leviticus and Deut'. just look at this one chapter...


leviticus 20
Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever [he be] of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth [any] of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.


Lev 20:3 And I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name.


Lev 20:4 And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man, when he giveth of his seed unto Molech, and kill him not:


Lev 20:5 Then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him, to commit whoredom with Molech, from among their people.


Lev 20:6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.


Lev 20:7 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I [am] the LORD your God.


Lev 20:8 And ye shall keep my statutes, and do them: I [am] the LORD which sanctify you.


Lev 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood [shall be] upon him.


Lev 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with [another] man's wife, [even he] that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.


Lev 20:11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.


Lev 20:12 And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood [shall be] upon them.


Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.


Lev 20:14 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it [is] wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.


Lev 20:15 And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.


Lev 20:16 B: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.


Lev 20:17 And if a man shall take his sister, his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter, and see her nakedness, and she see his nakedness; it [is] a wicked thing; and they shall be cut off in the sight of their people: he hath uncovered his sister's nakedness; he shall bear his iniquity.


Lev 20:18 And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.


Lev 20:19 And thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister, nor of thy father's sister: for he uncovereth his near kin: they shall bear their iniquity.


Lev 20:20 And if a man shall lie with his uncle's wife, he hath uncovered his uncle's nakedness: they shall bear their sin; they shall die childless.


Lev 20:21 And if a man shall take his brother's wife, it [is] an unclean thing: he hath uncovered his brother's nakedness; they shall be childless.


Lev 20:22 ¶ Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out.


Lev 20:23 And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.


Lev 20:24 But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I [am] the LORD your God, which have separated you from [other] people.


Lev 20:25 Ye shall therefore put difference between clean beasts and unclean, and between unclean fowls and clean: and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by fowl, or by any manner of living thing that creepeth on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean.


Lev 20:26 And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD [am] holy, and have severed you from [other] people, that ye should be mine.


Lev 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood [shall be] upon them.

Some quranic verses to have a read of.

2.99, 2.121, 2.171, 3.48 ,5.53, 8.55, 9.28, 9.30, 98.6

Draw your own conclusions.

no, andrew, DON'T draw your own conclusions, from just reading those verses in isolation.

Read them in context and with understanding. As with ANY verse from scripture.

As has been demonstrated many, many times in the past, you can take a verse, or a selection of verses, from any scripture, OT, NT, the Qur'an, or the Baghvadhgita for that matter, and tell the ill informed, and unenlightened that it can mean absolutely anything.

For crying out loud, if one was cynical enough, you could take the verse from the gospel (Matthew 27:5-8 ) the one where Judas went out and hanged himself, to argue that the bible tells us we must commit harikari! (or at least that it's Scriptural to do so)

jeeesh. :roll: :roll: it's true what they say, isn't it? :roll: :roll:

"Of all the senses, common sense is the least common of them all!"

no, andrew, DON'T draw your own conclusions, from just reading those verses in isolation.

Read them in context and with understanding.

As has been demonstrated many, many times in the past, you can take a verse, or a selection of verses, from any scripture, OT, NT, the Qur'an, or the Baghvadhgita for that matter, and tell the ill informed, and unenlightened that it can mean absolutely anything.

For crying out loud, if one was cynical enough, you could take the verse from the gospel (Matthew 27:5-8 ) the one where Judas went out and hanged himself, to argue that the bible tells us we must commit harikari! (or at least that it's Scriptural to do so)

jeeesh. :roll: :roll: it's true what they say, isn't it? :roll: :roll:

"Of all the senses, common sense is the least common of them all!"

Wise words. But who are they aimed at. Exploding Jews? Exploding Christians? Exploding Brahmists?

No, none of them actually go boom.

Lets not keep ignoring the elephant in the room, eh?

Excuse me PT, I wasn't going to say anything, but with reference to number 3 JoeP said, "I can't find anything about capital punishment in teh Koran for adultery, but it has been introduced under Shariah Laws."

You know perfectly well that in Christianity Jesus saved the life of the woman caught in adultery who was about to be stoned to death.

I know you don't like the site on Christianity but the answer to your question is on religioustolerance.org.....

Roman Catholic Archbishop of Lagos, Dr. Anthony Olubunmi Okogie, said that the "official text of the Qur'an only sanctions a punishment of so many lashes for such an offence not stoning to death...[the] punishment of stoning was introduced later by Omar, the second Calif for reasons best known to him. <snip> "...the Islamic legal scholar Tarik Abdul-Rahman states they are part of the Hadith (collections of sayings and acts of the Prophet), and go back to the Pentateuch (first five books of Hebrew Scripture)." 7 Execution by stoning is thus in harmony with the 613 laws which make up the Mosaic code in the Bible. (Ref) (http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_adul2.htm)

Some quranic verses to have a read of.

2.99, 2.121, 2.171, 3.48 ,5.53, 8.55, 9.28, 9.30, 98.6

Draw your own conclusions.

2.99 Verily We have revealed unto thee clear tokens, and only miscreants will disbelieve in them.

2.121 Nay, but whosoever surrendereth his purpose to Allah while doing good, his reward is with his Lord; and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

2.171 The likeness of those who disbelieve (in relation to the messenger) is as the likeness of one who calleth unto that which heareth naught except a shout and cry. Deaf, dumb, blind, therefore they have no sense.

3.48 And He will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel,

5.53 Then will the believers say (unto the people of the Scripture): are these they who swore by Allah their most binding oaths that they were surely with you? Their works have failed, and they have become the losers.

8.55 Lo! the worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the ungrateful who will not believe.

9.28 O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.

9.30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

98.6 Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings.
(Ref) (http://www.textinmotion.com/index.jsp)

These seem relatively innocuous to me. :huh:

2.99 Verily We have revealed unto thee clear tokens, and only miscreants will disbelieve in them.

2.121 Nay, but whosoever surrendereth his purpose to Allah while doing good, his reward is with his Lord; and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

2.171 The likeness of those who disbelieve (in relation to the messenger) is as the likeness of one who calleth unto that which heareth naught except a shout and cry. Deaf, dumb, blind, therefore they have no sense.

3.48 And He will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel,

5.53 Then will the believers say (unto the people of the Scripture): are these they who swore by Allah their most binding oaths that they were surely with you? Their works have failed, and they have become the losers.

8.55 Lo! the worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the ungrateful who will not believe.

9.28 O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.

9.30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

98.6 Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings.
(Ref) (http://www.textinmotion.com/index.jsp)

These seem relatively innocuous to me. :huh:

When you've as much froth around the mouth as andrewchase you could probably read it as being the end of civilisation....

As with all religious quotations two words spring to mind, mumbo and jumbo. You can read the Koran or the Bible and come to the same conclusion. Isn't it time we stopped respecting the religious views of others?

Isn't it time we stopped respecting the religious views of others?

Yup.

I don't expect any respect for what I do or don't believe, but as soon as something thinks magic faireys are real they demand respect and the lefties all pile in and play the intollerance card if you don't support the muslims "right" to murder homosexuals because mohammed said you should.

As with all religious quotations two words spring to mind, mumbo and jumbo. You can read the Koran or the Bible and come to the same conclusion. Isn't it time we stopped respecting the religious views of others?

Depends what you mean. I am an atheist and think all religions are "mumbo jumbo". Disrespect is however a very bad way to go about changing anyones mind.

Yup.

I don't expect any respect for what I do or don't believe, but as soon as something thinks magic faireys are real they demand respect and the lefties all pile in and play the intollerance card if you don't support the muslims "right" to murder homosexuals because mohammed said you should.

You're really scraping the bottom of the cliche barrel now - and inventing 'all the lefties piling in' if you don't support 'the muslims right to murder homosexuals' is another sign that you've nothing sensible to contribute.
Have you ever actually seen a 'lefty' post in support of the right to muder homosexuals?
Of course you haven't, you're making it up.

Yup.

I don't expect any respect for what I do or don't believe, but as soon as something thinks magic faireys are real they demand respect and the lefties all pile in and play the intollerance card if you don't support the muslims "right" to murder homosexuals because mohammed said you should.

Muslims have no right to murder homosexuals, neither does a Christian or an atheist.

The point is Muslims don't want to murder homosexuals, and there are many Muslim homosexuals to prove the point.

You're really scraping the bottom of the cliche barrel now - and inventing 'all the lefties piling in' if you don't support 'the muslims right to murder homosexuals' is another sign that you've nothing sensible to contribute.
Have you ever actually seen a 'lefty' post in support of the right to muder homosexuals?
Of course you haven't, you're making it up.

Islam mandates the murder of homosexuals. If you support islam as a valid way of living them you support killing gays.

Disrespect is however a very bad way to go about changing anyones mind.

Indeed it is - especially in a society in which many of our problems are attributed to a lack of respect.

Muslims have no right to murder homosexuals, neither does a Christian or an atheist.

The point is Muslims don't want to murder homosexuals, and there are many Muslim homosexuals to prove the point.

Could you quote relevant modern leading muslims on this point (al azhar sheiks) ?

Islam mandates the murder of homosexuals. If you support islam as a valid way of living them you support killing gays.

Utter nonsense andrew as you well know. You could make the same statement about Christianity and it would be equally nonsensical.

As with all religious quotations two words spring to mind, mumbo and jumbo. You can read the Koran or the Bible and come to the same conclusion. Isn't it time we stopped respecting the religious views of others?

no, absoutely not! I think, as I said times-many in my previous posts, that it's about time we respected the rights of others to fulfil the laws this country has about freedom of religion, and that it's up to the individual concerned, and their own conscience, to practice what they wish, beit Christainity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Pganism, agnosticism, or humaism or atheism. (or jedi for that matter!!!!!)

Islam mandates the murder of homosexuals. If you support islam as a valid way of living them you support killing gays.

is that what's called a "straw-man" argument?
if you support "X", then automatically , you "must" support "Y" .. whether you actually do, or not?
eg, "if you are a 'green' voter, then you automatically must want to blow-up all 4x4 cars..." that sort of thing?

Islam mandates the murder of homosexuals. If you support islam as a valid way of living them you support killing gays.

There's a verse in Leviticus that says adulterous couples must be put to death. If you support Christianity as a valid faith you must support killing adulterers.

See - your argument is a wholly fase one.

is that what's called a "straw-man" argument?
if you support "X", then automatically , you "must" support "Y" .. whether you actually do, or not?
eg, "if you are a 'green' voter, then you automatically must want to blow-up all 4x4 cars..." that sort of thing?

Aye, it's based on a logical fallacy alright.

Could you quote relevant modern leading muslims on this point (al azhar sheiks) ?

There are plenty of sources here: Safra Project (http://www.safraproject.org/sgi-progressiveislam.htm)

There are plenty of sources here: Safra Project (http://www.safraproject.org/sgi-progressiveislam.htm)

As I said, any al azhar shieks talking sence? (your link was very nice but not remotely maistream)

no, absoutely not! I think, as I said times-many in my previous posts, that it's about time we respected the rights of others to fulfil the laws this country has about freedom of religion, and that it's up to the individual concerned, and their own conscience, to practice what they wish, beit Christainity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Pganism, agnosticism, or humaism or atheism. (or jedi for that matter!!!!!)

What I meant was anyone has the right to believe in whatever religious nonsense they like, but they shouldn't expect anyone else to think they are right or demand any special privileges for their religious belief.

In fact your example of Jedi is spot on. We should give believers in the major religions about as much respect as we do to those who proclaim to be Jedi :hihi:

As I said, any al azhar shieks talking sence? (your link was very nice but not remotely maistream)

Egypt has become repressive towards gays recently. But the sentences they are passing are 3 years in prison similar to UK law until 1967. Reprehensible though this is there are many Muslims who are appalled by this and are fighting for their human rights. These people need support not condemnation.

If you want to do something about human rights, why don't you join amnesty or one of the groups who are actually doing something about it rather than spending your time criticising "lefties" and alienating Muslims?

Mod. Note

Oh dear...oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

I warned folks last night to keep on topic and not get into an anti-Islam rant.

A couple of people can't or won't read my requests.

They're now nursing bans.

Now - either be civil and keep to the topic or don't post on this thread. It isn't hard.

The Levitical laws (given in leviticus and deuteronomy) prescribe death for adulterers
in fact, lots of crimes carry the DP in leviticus and Deut'. just look at this one chapter...


leviticus 20
Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever [he be] of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth [any] of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

<snip>

What you are doing there PT is quoting Old Testament law which is similar to Islamic law as practised today.

I thank God for Jesus who said in the New Covenant (Testament): -

First, "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you... whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also." Mat. 5:38-39

Second, Jesus forgave the woman "caught in adultery, in the very act." To those arguing that she should be put to death, Jesus said: "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first." John 8:7

Third, Jesus taught believers to forgive: "But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Mat. 6:15

Fourth, Paul taught believers to: Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse... Repay no one evil for evil... do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I Will repay," says the Lord." Rom. 12:14, 17, 19

So you concede that the bible contains passages every bit as unpleasant and murderously intolerant as anything in the koran and that being a tolerant Christian means you have to deliberately ignore huge chunks of the bible?

Given a political & idealogical kicking equivalent to that received by british Xians over the last few centuries have you any reason to believe that many Muslims wouldn't become as adept at ignoring the nasty bits of the Koran as Rowan William & his like are at ignoring most of the bible?

Oh dear plekhanov, we were having a nice constructive debate.

You know I'm a Christian which offers a message of love and if the followers of Islam would like to come up to speed and change their laws to reflect the teaching of Jesus then I would be well pleased.

Oh dear plekhanov, we were having a nice constructive debate.
So that's why JoeP was threatening to ban people just a few posts ago (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2621585&postcount=240) is it? Do you have to start your response with personal abuse?

You know I'm a Christian which offers a message of love and if the followers of Islam would like to come up to speed and change their laws to reflect the teaching of Jesus then I would be well pleased.
But as you concede in your previous post the bible contains all manner of unpleasantness.

When Christian's could they followed those commands they did, it's thanks to the growing strength of secular liberalism & the weakness of Christianity in the UK over the last few centuries that has forced most British Xian's to pretend Leviticus doesn't exist and play nice not any inherent niceness in the bible. The well documented history of violent Christian intolerance to heretics & pagans of powerful evidence of that.

The solution to the problem of Islamism isn't Christianity as you bizarrely seem to be claiming but the thing which tamed Christianity - secular liberalism. One day it would be nice to cure people of religion entirely but till then the best we can hope for is to neuter it, as Europe has largely succeeded in doing to Christianity.

So that's why JoeP was threatening to ban people just a few posts ago (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2621585&postcount=240) is it? Do you have to start your response with personal abuse?


But as you concede in your previous post the bible contains all manner of unpleasantness.

When Christian's could they followed those commands they did, it's thanks to the growing strength of secular liberalism & the weakness of Christianity in the UK over the last few centuries that has forced most British Xian's to pretend Leviticus doesn't exist and play nice not any inherent niceness in the bible. The well documented history of violent Christian intolerance to heretics & pagans of powerful evidence of that.

The solution to the problem of Islamism isn't Christianity as you bizarrely seem to be claiming but the thing which tamed Christianity - secular liberalism. One day it would be nice to cure people of religion entirely but till then the best we can hope for is to neuter it, as Europe has largely succeeded in doing to Christianity.
Old Testament law is not for today and Islamic law is based on the Old Testament which Islam adopted approximately 500 years after Christ’s death. They ‘say’ Jesus was a prophet but they ignore his teaching preferring to focus instead on Old Testament law which was outdated by the time of Mohammad. The apostle Paul writing to the Hebrews confirmed the new law or covenant as taught by Jesus Christ is for everyone including Muslims.

Hebrews chapter 8 starting at verse 6.
"But as it is, Jesus Christ has obtained a ministry that is much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second…..Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.

For this is the new covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall not teach, each one his neighbour and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.

For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more." In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."

.

That's just your personal interpretation of the bible, many other Christians in fact the clear majority both throughout history and alive today view things very differently. Medieval Christians following Deuteronomy butchered heretics, American Christians following Exodus bomb clinics that amongst other things perform abortions, African Christians following their understanding of Leviticus are today in the process of schisming from the Anglican church because it isn't homophobic enough for them and following their interpretation of Genesis preach against using condoms to help prevent the AIDS epidemic (though I realise that in these last two cases you probably agree with them).

There's more than enough nasty stuff in both the bible & the Koran and sadly most believers in each faith believe a distressingly large portion of it. Just because thanks to the influence of secular liberalism in forcibly toning down British Christianity you happen to believe in relatively less of the particularly evil bits of the bible that doesn't magically stop most other Christians from doing so.

You are clearly trying to argue in this thread that Christianity is in some way nice & Islam horrid but the facts do not support your position. When it held sway in Europe Christianity was truly monstrous as it continues to be elsewhere, it's just bizarre how you seem to be arguing that Christianity should get the credit for being forced to become something European churches bitterly fought against every step of the way.

As you know I have been a Christian for most of my life and I have only known goodness, kindness and love throughout although I admit not everyone is perfect and often I have been less helpful than I should have been. People have their own views on things and not everyone sees Christianity in the same way so all I can say to you is to "Taste and see that the Lord, he is good."


Yours in Christ,

Graham.

Yes and? I never said that Christian’s can’t be nice but that like the Koran the Bible is chock full of unpleasant, nasty and downright evil instructions and examples to believers that have and do inspire people to commit both petty and monstrous acts of cruelty.

Furthermore that British Christians tend not to commit monstrous acts of cruelty is because religion is so weak in the UK, not because Christianity itself is nice.

As you know I have been a Christian for most of my life and I have only known goodness, kindness and love throughout although I admit not everyone is perfect and often I have been less helpful than I should have been. People have their own views on things and not everyone sees Christianity in the same way so all I can say to you is to "Taste and see that the Lord, he is good."


Yours in Christ,

Graham.

Fine words, easy to say but far harder to follow. For example you are quick to condemn around 1 billion people on the actions of a few by saying that Muslims will:

kill you if you disagree with them.

You also say that:

Shouldn't tolerance be a two way street?

This is not the message of Jesus, he was big on tolerence towards every one. Infact perhaps you could follow his teachings by offering goodness, kindness and love towards everyone.

We don't follow the teaching of the Old Testament and neither do we follow the teaching of the Koran. I'm not a Buddhist but I find myself leaning towards them in some respects although not in others.

And yes JFK I agree with your last sentence, but like plekhanov I find it hard when I hear of the things that are done in the name of religion, and I expect if you were present at a stoning I hope you would be as disturbed as I think I would be and I hope you are not asking me to be in agreement with things like that. :)

.