Where do I start, at the beginning.
Been here a few years, first week in this property, I asked the guy who mows the communal grass adjacent to my back garden if he was going to mow the garden.
Council Gardener: "no sorry mate, your garden, your responsibility".
Me: "no worries".

We have paid a gardener to come mow the garden ever since.

My 2 year old can now open the back door, and there is only us stopping her from running into the road, the kitchen, bathroom etc being out of operation for awhile, whilst the council fit the bathroom, kitchen etc, we need somewhere to store stuff.
So I got a few quotes from a few quality sheffield businesses for erecting a fence, draws up my plans which can be viewed below, and the wife has bought me a shed for xmas (which we intend to store fridge freezer, etc whilst the council do their work).

http://www.adohost.net/rightview.jpg
http://www.adohost.net/leftview.jpg
http://www.adohost.net/topview.jpg
http://www.adohost.net/frontview.jpg

Along with the dimensions and a drawing of work proposed.
My wife hands it in to the housing on the 24th for approval, wanting the work done asap, I phone the council and get told to wait until today to contact them if I don't hear anything.
I know someone came out yesterday, because I noticed the footprints, looks like they walked around outside my maisonette a little and then walked away (I assumed it would have been the housing).
They never knocked, or made any attempt to discuss the plans with me whatsoever, yet they would have been yards away from me.

So not hearing anything I start phoning around today, trying to chase it up, speak to a few people, and then I get put through to one of the ladies who had been out the previous day.
She says she's been out and it looks like a communal garden so I won't be allowed to erect a fence and shed (that is now in my hallway), and that they have plans that state it is communal.

So I pointed out that my two neighbours own their houses and in their deeds the land is part of the lower maisonette, as was when they signed the original tenancy, the same tenancy agreement I signed, and I would like a copy of their evidence as I intend to hand it to my neighbours if they are claiming that private land is indeed communal land.

After holding, she says I can't have the evidence as it has other properties on it, needless to say they have just ruined our life.
I then explain that there are 6 blocks of maisonettes Identical in structure and within 2 minutes walking distance of each other, and all 6 have at least one fence on its back garde, MOST HAVE THEM ALL FENCED OFF, like the block opposite, one house have erected a fence over the last few months.

If I have a grievance about everybody else's fences I should file a complaint about them erecting fences without permission, and they will investigate it, (which i might do as it will shoot them in the foot when they have to deal with over 100 cases of none permitted fences, and give them a whole load more work, I'll inform all the households with fences of my actions to and to expect the council to take them down, and that they should contact the council for more info).

I contacted the solicitors, little they can do, its a border issue and I need more evidence, I have to contact Cab and have them arrange for the volunteer surveyors come out and work out where the borders belong.
I share a mutual friend with the original lawnmower, so I need a statement from him, stating his understanding of the area he was told to work on.

I'm also going to claim back all the money I have spent on my gardener, the shed that they made me waste money on believing I could place it in my garden.
And that is before I receive the letter stating what I've been told today, that I can't build a fence and put my xmas present up.

Sheffield Homes, Merry F'in Xmas its WAR.

What on earth am I paying full rent and council tax for, going through the proper procedures, when others pay naff all and build their fences anyway.
Any advice you folks have would be appreciated.

Could you ask your neighbours for their proof that their gardens are private and hand that to council?

I feel for you, I was in a council maisonette (my parents), and when we were "encouraged" to buy, we would basically be buying the internal as all the outer was "communal" and if they decided to knock down we'd have no rights whatsoever.

Let us know how you get on

Just have done, in the process of getting a copy of the plans. :)
Going to get in touch with the old lady across the street to see if she has some old photo's of the area when our back gardens had their original fences

Perhaps this site will help you, digsy.

http://www.landregisteronline.gov.uk/

Granma.

Thanks for that Granma, I'll pay my neighbour the £3 for a copy of the plans.
I wonder if I can bill the council for sorting this border dispute for them.

I've just found the ordinance survey map for the area.
And it shows no definite boundary around the back of the garden, so I checks to see what legal standing the ordinance survey maps have, none.

http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/site/contact/boundaries.html

The lady I spoke to today, says she was looking at the ordinance survey map for the area and it appeared to be a communal garden.

So basically, ordinance survey do not put a boundary around a property if their is no visible one there, in our case only slabs jutting out of the ground a few inches define our boundaries, so the ordinance survey have not mapped it.
And the lady making the decision is basing it upon this map (that has no legal standing) and her opinion on what a communal garden looks like, which goes against what me and ALL my neighbours believe.

So for the council to give permission, I have to go against the original decision, build a barrier, invite the ordinance survey team out to redo the area, have the map changed to show the new barrier, then apply for permission on a wall I have already built in order to put the lines on the map that the council will check to see if a wall can be put there (Which clearly can be, as it would be), then they come out, see the wall already up and call out the wrecking crew as seen on T.V. to satisfy some power trip.

I can see the kitchen, central heating and bathroom being finished, before I get my wall up, even though I could have it done within the week.

I though Mr Brown said he was cutting the red tape. meh.

I'll keep you folks updated.

Digsy, if you can make the trip, this place has copies of original deeds.

http://www.wakefield.gov.uk/CultureAndLeisure/HistoricWakefield/Investigate/WhereToGo/Archives/default.htm

Have you been to the Local Studies library & the Sheffield Archives?

Granma.

Its also worth looking at other similar properties in your area - have they got fenced gardens, or are they all communal? If others are fenced, that suggests a precedent has been set.

Yeah part of my argument were that all the other 5 blocks have at least 1 fence on the back.
After looking at the ordinance survey, 3 out of 6 blocks have the back yards marked out, 1 has 1/2 marked out (even though all of them are fenced off), 2 without any back gardens marked out, our block has no fences, the other block has 2 fences up that are not marked on the ordinance survey, one of them being my dads old neighbour and his fence has been up for over 5 years now.

My neighbour that owns their own home, has been talking about having a fence around their back yard this year, so they also have an interest in what I am doing.

But the response I got to this, I have to grass up the 12 or so houses, that do not have barriers marked on the ordinance survey and report them for erecting fences.

Which has nothing to do with me trying to erect a fence in what I believe is my back garden.

I would be tempted just to put up the fence and the shed. What's the worst that can happen. Speak to your neighbours before you do to check that they have no issue with it. If no one in the council can tell you for certain and you have proof of that conversation.. particularly if they don't mow what they consider to be yours. You can see lots of maisonnettes over the city where the lower flat has erected fences. Its going to be pretty harsh if they start ripping these all up. I have the plans for my house and they differ from what I can see but I really don't think any of my neighbours would be bothered to rip up hedges and gardens that have been in place for at least 30 years or so to gain a square foot here or there. Even if they did I expect there is something somewhere that refers to common practice, or considered to be the boundary after x years or some loop hole. No one wants to give advice where no dispute exists because its so complicated. If you really do need clarification that sort of advice probably costs but still would not protect you if someone somewhere really wanted to challenge it.

Well i've been thinking about it, the ordinance survey maps that the management team are basing their decisions on show no barriers because, the barriers are only a few inches high (if that).
But I don't want to pay nearly £1000 to have it installed, just to have the council come rip it out and charge me for doing so, probably have it recorded and slapped on t.v. so they can brag about it.

The wall will in effect be mine until the council pay me for it, damaging it would be illegal.
What I need to establish though is if it is communal land or part of this tenancy (as I believe the latter to be).
Because if I build a wall on communal land, then they can come and rip it down and charge me for it, if I don't remove it myself.

I'm just not very happy that the "it should be ok, it only takes a few weeks to get the decision, cant see why you shouldn't be allowed one" that I get from everyone in the housing other than the 2-4 people making the decision, and that now it looks like I'm going to be waiting months instead of days, just to unwrap my xmas present, if ever.

Perhaps you could ask one of your local councillors if they could get the decision speeded up, and perhaps get some support as well for your plans.

Yeah I was trying to get in touch with them yesterday.

Hi Digsy
It's your neighbour who also has an invested interest in the planning permission you are seeking to acquire due to the fact that we have bought our property. I have plans clearing stating the boundary of our garden - front and back. I have made copies today and will drop them round when I get home about 7ish. These were produced by City of Sheffield Neighbourhoods Directorate and clearly state "The tenant has private use of the garden areas to the front and rear of the property. Communal facilities are listed as access footpaths, halls, stairs and landings, walkways, drying area, TV aerial and grassed amenity area. I would just go ahead and get your fence up!!
Will see you later

Thanks Katy,
I've spent the day looking up the Guidance on Unfair Terms in Tenancy Agreement (http://www.oft.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/DAAEFE58-1AAB-422A-AFED-BDE6C654A4EE/0/oft356.pdf) as well as many other useful stuff, legislations, advice blogs, bits and bats, dead ends and a few cooking recipes.
In the process of getting in touch with the counsellor, Sharrow CAB is impossible to get through to, I remember trying a few months ago tna.
So I think I'll email them, and try ringing them again tomorrow, no letter confirming what I was told on Friday, the person responsible for this case is off until Wednesday, nobody is sure whether she has sent the letter yet or not.

I'm now looking up the rules of war, researching border conflicts, and how to make my own wind/solar powered gun turrets (http://www.engadget.com/2005/09/23/homemade-automated-sentry-gun-turret/) to defend my tenancy border.

Phoned the housing this morning, and they are coming back out again.
I've ordered the plans for the 142 property housing plan from when this estate was built, so I can see the original designs and intentions for this block from the archive.

Also been speaking to the other neighbours, and all bar 1 are in agreement that each garden belongs to each property, with 1 saying she likes it as a communal garden and she will try and put an estoppel to any plans, even from the ones that own their property (one of whom happens to be her neighbour).
I'm glad she's not my neighbour, she not in a position to dispute my borders, she's in someone else's neighbourhood.
So I guess she's not going to be happy, as there are now 4 of us out of the 6 that are willing to build a barrier around our rear gardens.
2 of them home owners.

Thanks for the leads Granma, got some good info from them.

Just to add, it is the neighbour that likes it as is, that has set the precedence by campaigning to have barriers placed around the communal grassland, so cars cannot park on the grass.
I've now got to build myself up to going to the archives on monday, was going to send my wife, but she might not understand the schematics, and I'm looking for 2 particular details.

One of the sides of my garden, is part owned with a private owner, I have permission from him to erect the fence.

One of the things I suspect may be happening is this, the block I live in has 12 properties and all 12 properties were in the original plans as 1 building.
When my neighbours bought their properties that chunk of the building was seperated from the block plans, and not all flats seperated.

So in order to have my flat separated from the rest of the block is to put in an application for the right to buy (why do we have to beg for the right to buy?, makes no sense.), or get them to define exactly where my tenancy border ends.
Then I will check the archived version and see if there is a definite border around the back yard, and how it was intended to be used.

I blew some steam off at the lass in charge of this case on Friday, as I get closer to the de facto and de jure of my situation, I can see how confusing it is to get your head around.

Apparently an advisor who knows about borders and maps will be visiting too.

As a matter of interest the border around my back garden can be seen from space.

Hazard a guess as to which one is my garden, it don't look communal to me.

http://www.adohost.net/google.gif

One of the things I suspect may be happening is this, the block I live in has 12 properties and all 12 properties were in the original plans as 1 building.
When my neighbours bought their properties that chunk of the building was seperated from the block plans, and not all flats seperated.

So in order to have my flat separated from the rest of the block is to put in an application for the right to buy (why do we have to beg for the right to buy?, makes no sense.), or get them to define exactly where my tenancy border ends.
Then I will check the archived version and see if there is a definite border around the back yard, and how it was intended to be used.

I blew some steam off at the lass in charge of this case on Friday, as I get closer to the de facto and de jure of my situation, I can see how confusing it is to get your head around.

Apparently an advisor who knows about borders and maps will be visiting too.

As a matter of interest the border around my back garden can be seen from space.

I'm glad you're getting somewhere with this. Just want to mention RTB - if there weren't any rules about who qualifies, can you imagine the free for all? Please don't see it as begging, its actually safeguarding tenants' rights to be able to buy their homes at a discount.

Yeah I was semi-pleased with the conversation I had with the lady this morning, It left me with some hope, it sounded less like war and more like peace talks :hihi:
She said that they would work towards my interests, which is good to hear, because it is of beneficial interest to me, my neighbour that owns his property (he gets one side fenced at no expense), and the council as it will increase the value of the property.
To be honest though, I'm still going to look at the original plans, so I can see for myself how it was intended as built, mainly because I may want to purchase the property at some point.

I may yet get to put up my Pressie :)

I've spoken to lady across the street and it appears no fences have ever been around my tenancies property.
And when the area was designed they were specifically told no fences or barriers would be allowed to the front or rear of a property, or on any of the public/communal land as it was all to be open plan.

Which means the council would have had the right not to accept my fence.
But they have set the precedence by putting up barriers over the last few months.

One thing that has just sprung to mind though, is this, if I put in a right to buy and this property is separated and defined from the rest of the block, I still have the exact same tenancy agreement before and after I put in the right to buy.
So why will I not have the right to private access of the land to the rear of my property without putting in a right to buy application.

That makes this contract unfair, as I have to apply for something I don't need in order to get something I do, and all because of the type of property I had no option of moving into.

Then there is the other side of the coin, if the land was designated for private use in the original plans, and the council are now claiming it to be communal land, and that land is just a portion of the chunk of land my tenancy sits on.
Then I don't need to pay rent or council tax as I'm just using communal land, which is free for public use, and thus they owe me 2 years rent and council tax or so.

This link looks promising.
here (http://www.rotherham.gov.uk/rotherham/Templates/Inner/Inner1_printerfriendly.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRORIGINALURL=%2Fgraphics%2FResidents%2FPlanning%2 FDevelopment%2BControl%2FHouseholder%2BGuidance%2B Leaflets%2FEDSBoundaryWall.htm&NRNODEGUID={047ECC93-C355-4620-90AF-83097B38524D}&NRCACHEHINT=Guest)
Should be the same for Sheffield and Rotherham, Islington seem to believe no permission is needed too.

I particular like this bit In many cases a wall or fence is exempt from Planning Control because it is covered by a general planning permission, granted by law.
So I am automatically permitted one by law?

Then I spotted this bit Council Houses

Whether or not you need Planning Permission and Building Regulations approval, you will need permission from the Neighbourhood Management Service.
Which means I do need them to approve.
And I'm right back to where I was this afternoon, looking at finding out the tenancy border and finding out the plans and intentions for this property.
I'm assuming the planning department use these maps here (http://planning.sheffield.gov.uk/publicaccess/mapping/map/map_detailview.aspx?module=P3) to base their decisions upon.

If you zoom into your area and take a look around, see how accurate it is.
Then click on the legend and see how accurate it is.

I really hope the guy that is coming tomorrow really does know about the plans and has seen them first hand and knows what he is talking about, and that they really are going to work towards my best interests, because I am going to be really disappointed when I view the originals and if it turns out he's wrong.
And I'm going to be furious if it turns into what I don't want, which is intimidation tactics and false information to back up illegitimate claims.
The latter is not my idea of the service I want for money the money I pay.

Well I aint slept for a good 30 hours, this has really got me thinking.
If they deem the land to be communal, the front and back, and then I put in an application for the right to buy, with my neighbours title plans as precedence, it will mean that the land they have designated a few weeks before as communal land will become "THE TENANT HAS PRIVATE USE OF GARDEN AREAS TO THE FRONT AND REAR OF THE PROPERTY". (sorry for the caps, thats how it appears on the plans), 2 weeks after being designated communal.

The question I'm going to pose to them today is:-

Why on earth do I have to fill out a begging slip to claim my right to buy, in order to obtain the plans that give me private use to an area I have always had private use of?.

I mean the boundaries apply to human nature, the gas man was at one of the neighbours houses, he walked around the back, and walked along the borderline between the grassed amenity area and our back yards, if it looked communal he would have ignored the border and walked right across our gardens.
Which is something that I have never seen anyone do in the time I have been here, the only people that have stepped foot on our back garden is my family and the people we invite onto it.

Can you tell this is giving me a headache, literally.

I just thought of another question, if it turns out to be communal land.

How long has it been communal land?

If it has always been communal, and I get plans stating the communal land to the rear and front of my tenancy is indeed the same land as the as my tenancy, then why have I been paying rent and tax for living on communal land?

I can see why nobody has responded to any of this though, probably because nobody has a clue, they just don't bother getting permission to find out.

I'm guessing if I had asked on how to prevent the council from pulling down my illegal fence, we'd be on page 4 by now with tons of advice.

Rant on Rant on me ole Digsy
on how to erect your 6ft fence,
for those who view,
with a means to do as you do,
to think oh no and wince.

I had a positive response today, the housing had been to the premises (must have been between 9:30-10:30) trust me to fall asleep during the hour I've been waiting for seems like forever, doh.
Noticed right to buy material when the deliveries arrived.
Tried to contact cab all day to follow the volunteer surveyor route, no chance of getting through to Sharrow branch the capacitor in their phone socket must be broke.
Phoned Heeley branch and informed the lady of what assistance I needed, I need her to refer me through to the csvs, new procedure, she'll have to look into it, I pointed her here for reference so if your reading this I need you to phone T + 44 (0)870 333 1600 and book me a surveyor.
If she don't read it I'll ring her if I need to follow it up.
Phoned the right to buy place and had a conversation with the bloke there, got some good info, but I think he lost interest at the point where I said "well I just need a border dispute sorting and your application gives me my resolution".
He said they only draw up the plans towards finalisation of purchase, which I know is incorrect as they would have to give me a detailed description with the offer then send me for the property, I.E. the plans, but it will cost them £500 to do so.
The csvs would be my prefered option anyway.
But then I got some really good news.
I managed to get through to the lass dealing with it, whilst they had been the guy she brought confirmed the boundaries to be as we suspected, and the chances are I will be granted permission to build a fence.
But then there is a question as to how high a fence can be built, it has to conform with the surrounding area, and there maybe something written somewhere that only 3ft high picket fences are allowed.
But I look around and all the houses with fences are indeed about 3ft high and picketed, but then council have erected a chickenwire fence around the amenity area that is about 5ft high and does not conform to the surrounding area, there is a 5 ft bush like barrier across the street, and this is just in open view.
In these peoples back gardens they have 6ft high walls, fences, privets so on and so forth.
I have as much equal right to build a six foot fence on my back yard and a 3ft picketed fence on the back, if everyone around me does.
I also have the right to privacy, my back garden I wish to use for private matters, and a 3ft fence is not very private.
But I'll leave that bit for the appeal if need be, I have faith and hope it wont get that far, and they will have hindsight to see my rights, before making a final decision, that I don't have to appeal.

Hi its hayley signed up just to see this,yes its sertantly a very very very very long rant and you have me very confused about the situation but i think - build your fence and your shed and they will allow it just to shut you up,:D.
I know one thing that you most sertantly will have all the bases covered what ever thay throw at you!

Have you thought about getting the information off the council under the Freedom of Information act

The ladies superior has got back to her and said that it is indeed communal land and he is not permitting a fence, they are putting it in writing and sending it me.
He is going to come out with lady and her male colleague who defined the border.
No doubt I will be appealing.

The sheffield archives have recieved what I suspect to be the area plans, when this estate was built, It is believed that the plans for this block are contained within the 140+ property plan pack (6 packages) that was done when the area was built.

I don't ever recall giving him authority to make this decision on my behalf, he is clearly not acting towards with my best interests in mind.

I left a message on my local councillors voice mail the other day, a lady called me on his behalf and said he would be contacting me the following day, still not heard from him.

And people wonder why I don't like to interact with people, well here is one reason, most of this has been done without going out, no doubt if others that can go out, had to go through this procedure they would have many wasted journeys.
God help us.

Why are Sheffield Homes giving people my money and then telling them to make an attempt at infringing my rights?.

I'm drawing up a list of questions and I'll phone them ALL tomorrow with them.

I'm glad she's not my neighbour, she not in a position to dispute my borders, she's in someone else's neighbourhood.
So I guess she's not going to be happy, as there are now 4 of us out of the 6 that are willing to build a barrier around our rear gardens.

Maybe she might start a thread on here about having her human rights removed! :loopy:

Whose removing her human rights?
Plus since when has a democracy meant 1 person can infringe the rights of the many.
That's not democracy that's tyranny.

She will have the same right to private access of her garden as the rest of us.
And she has the same right to erect a fence legally.

I've just been in the kitchen getting a drink of water, and I looked out of my kitchen window, what do I see, a 6ft fence, spanning across the communal area out front.
How long has that been there I wonder?

Tell me salmonbones lets assume you are a council tenant (you may not be but lets just assume for a second you are)
Would you allow the council to take your back garden because one of your neighbours wanted rights to use it?
Would you allow your neighbour permission to estoppel you in building a fence in your back garden.
Well that is what we want to prevent happening to us, now its obvious you have no compassion for the majority of us on this block that want legal fences on our back gardens.

I'm quite happy for the lady to come and debate in public, I welcome it, I have witnesses that were present when she told me porkies, claiming the neighbours who have donated me their plans put in for a galvanised fence to the council and was refused.

She went schtum when I told her that it was funny 'cos whilst she has been away, all of us have been discussing it amongst ourselves, and it turns out no such event happened.
She shrugged her shoulders and said, I'll still stop them anyway.
We also suspect her of putting an estoppel to us having recycling facilities.

The ladies superior has got back to her and said that it is indeed communal land and he is not permitting a fence, they are putting it in writing and sending it me.
He is going to come out with lady and her male colleague who defined the border.

Just a thought, if thats the case, then everyone else who has put a fence up will have to remove it, tell them that when it comes in writing, and watch em backtrack quicker than Gordon Brown :hihi::hihi:

Yeah I thought about that the other day, they tried offering it me as some kind of remedy, its somewhere in this compendium on how to erect a legal fence when in a communal block of flats.
"well if they have illegal fencies, report them and we will investigate".
I haven't put in a request to have other peoples fences pulled down, I've put in a request for a gravel board fence to be erected on these premises.

You ask for one thing and then they offer you the absolute opposite of what you want.
That is not and has never been working towards my interests never mind anyone else's. and it is me and the wife that pay the full rent and council tax for it, no chance.

But it turns out we are in luck anyway, even if it is communal ground, we may be able to build a communal wall to keep the communal rabbits in but give them a free range feel, and a nice big shed for them to live in.

And there is a guy I met on here tonight that has a hawk and may want to use any communal area we have for demonstrations and stuff, I'm really excited I think the kids on this block will love it.
I just have to clear it with my neighbours first.

Morning folks, I've just re-read everything I've put, man is this driving me insane.
Can you tell.
I apologise to all those that think this to be just the rantings of a lunatic, but I've been using this thread to express my thoughts and opinions on this matter, because I promised the Mrs I wouldn't do it if front of her or the kids and ruin their build up to Christmas.

Although it feels like I'm wading through fog, and I don't really understand why the council are claiming my land to be communal, having sleepless nights, not being able to eat, just waiting and waiting and waiting for remedy.

I have had a lot of support from people across the board, and I'd like to thank everyone for their snippets of help and information, I'm still learning the process of putting up a legal fence whilst in a lower maisonette.

And am still waiting for remedy, I keep looking for this communal land, but all I can see around me is the land contained within my tenancy agreement, and the grassy amenity area.
I'm waiting for a letter at the moment, and debating on whether to pay the £50 or so for the plans for the whole area, so I don't miss anything that might be contained within a document that is not the drawings for this block.
I really am not looking forward to having to attempt a trip to the archives.

Risk the chance of a blackout in the archives and look more of a **** than I probably already do for wanting to build a fence that a neighbour can't have pulled down at request.
Or pay to have them delivered.

.....well you'll have to come back and find out after the break.
(commence countdown theme tune)

Another one of my neighbours has pointed out a good fact to me today.
which made me think of another very good question today, but it is one that I am keeping private for the time being.
And a friend phoned me about his concerns that I am giving up my right to privacy, with making this matter public.

So I had to explain that from the way I see it, I already have my privacy, few neighbours saw me until recently, few knew much more than I sit on the back garden every now and again for a cig and that I have children and a wife.
A few neighbours have been privileged with addition information.
Some even know me by name.
Even my family and friends only ever find anything out via proxy and gossip, and I'd say 80% of what is said is not true anyway.
So I have my privacy anyway.
The people on the forum will only every know what information I have chosen to privilege them with and the rest is hearsay and gossip, needless to say, what they don't know is what I chose to keep private.
And I don't consider this compendium I am writing to be private else I would have written it in private.
What I do in my back garden I consider to be private, and would like some privacy.

That is unless some magical land appears to replace it, I wonder if it is called narnia, lapland or shangri la.

As a matter of interest the border around my back garden can be seen from space.

Hazard a guess as to which one is my garden, it don't look communal to me.

http://www.adohost.net/google.gif

I'm afraid it does look communal to me and the border isn't obvious. It just looks like the mowing pattern.

It is the strimming pattern.
I don't do the neighbours area, so it grows over the line in some places and makes it look uneven, but if I didn't mow it done, it would never get done, because the concrete slabs that divide our gardens, and amenity area would break the lawnmowers blades (the original reason given by the gardener that mows the amenity area, and confirmed by the lady handling my case and her male colleague), and if they don't then they've obviously sunk, and need raising back to level.

here are a few facts though.

1) apparently only 3ft high picket fences are allowed in the area as it is deemed open plan.
2) within eyesight of my windows I see, a 6ft picket fence, 8-10 foot wall (planning application permitted), 6ft wall, 5ft chicken wire fence, a 6ft plant/bush/tree of some sort, and its no longer open plan because the council have spent the last few months, putting up fences a day, even saw the photographers shooting them do it, must have been for some paper.
3) Its apparantly the land out back that is not attached to this property and is communal.
4) The land has no barrier between itself and this property (that our contract covers), it has a barrier on all its other 3 sides, (that alone should be enough evidence to prove the architect designed it to be a part of this property, as they have a knack of putting some form of boundary around a property, unless of course it is communal).
5) Each segregated plot, connected each to its own property on the ground floor, has the same area of ground the width of which matches the width of every room in every flat on the ground floor (minus the plaster and browning).
6) I'm going to take photos of it tomorrow and show you the little concrete fence I already have on my garden.

It hasn't been done for a few weeks now, what with the cold weather setting in and what not, so its as high as my neighbours and is beginning to overgrow the barrier, going to have to cut it again soon.

I'm just going to go off topic from the garden issue a minute and take you on a little journey.
How would you folks like a piece of this cake, cos this is just some of the stuff we have had to put up with as a communal block and neighbourhood.
Council come and chop down the tree that retained all the water that now collects preventing us from using the dry storage area (bin room that now gets wet) during rainy weather.
We ask for recycling bins, as we have a problem with the bin shoot always getting blocked, 5 out of the 6 flats were in agreement of it (tried twice a day for 2 weeks to talk to the 6th, nobody was home), it rarely backs up to the top floor so they never notice, but us on the ground floor have to leave bin bags outside the front, we have a whole kitchen bin cupboard (has been a weeks worth of rubbish in their), where we have to place them until the shoots are unblocked, others just have to try and cram what they can in, and leave the rest by the exit, probably getting on the nerves of all the neighbours on the top floor.

Parking in the area appears to be sparse, so neighbours are forever swapping places in the areas they can park, but when nothing is available, they parked where ever they could, one spot used was the amenity area.
They have now blocked that up, and I know exactly what happens when more than 3 cars piled up in that spot, it blocked our front entrance and no prams can get out.
But now they have blocked it up, it only takes 2 cars now to block everything off, and I don't expect people to change their driving habits.
There is a good thing that comes out of it though, the cars blocking the bin room will stop you getting drenched when it rains.
Not to mention losing a couple of good neighbours.
And now they are claiming that our back gardens are not ours and are communal (which I don't believe to be true), and that we can't build fences when everyone else in the area can.

As far as I am aware the only things I have asked them for is to fix the door on the outside storage area we have, just to find its a health hazard with the previous tenants disgusting mess in there, there is a leak in the roof and mould on the walls, me and the dude that opened it just looked in disgust, its not been opened since and the hinge looks like its rusted shut again, no chance am I going to put my health at risk breathing in god knows what, doing what should have been done before we moved in.

To have recycling facilities (and I was not the only one that had phoned them and put a request in for it), even had our councillors involved.

And for this fence to be put up.

1 out of 3 aint good (especially when the 3rd costs them nothing and probably increases the value of the property), when others can have them jumping through hoops.

Why on earth do I have to fill out a begging slip to claim my right to buy, in order to obtain the plans that give me private use to an area I have always had private use of?.

Its not a begging slip.

You buy it, its yours to do with as you want, within the applicable laws.

You don't buy, you don't have the right.

Why do some people think they have a god given right to things for NOTHING.

Its not a begging slip.

You buy it, its yours to do with as you want, within the applicable laws.

You don't buy, you don't have the right.

Why do some people think they have a god given right to things for NOTHING.

I don't understand what you mean bythat?
The fence will be paid for with our money.
I don't know about the right to buy, and we have not been here for 5 years anyway so we can't, I was just informed that it might be an option.
And one I chased up to find a dead end, I'm not blaming anyone or complaining one bit about not being qualified for the right to buy, as my wife does not want to buy this property, we all like it here, but I don't think we would buy it given the present conditions that come with it.
My point was why do you have to apply for the right to buy in order to get the boundaries defined, and a plan stating private use of the garden.
The begging slip bit was a joke, you see to apply for, can be construed as asking for assistance, asking for assistance can be construed as begging, you may not have noticed but a lot of this thread is crammed with sarcasm, useful information and other stuff, my reason for it, is because this is a long winded compendium on how to drive Digsy insane, and people may need the odd chuckle.
You just don't appear to share my humour is all, and probably taking everything I put too seriously, this is only a request for a fence remember.

Oh and where I said the bin shoot rarely backs up to the top floor, my daughters friend that lives upstairs has just been around and informed me that they get it quite often.
She says her mom goes out every now and again with a bucket of bleach to quench the stench.

Who believes they have a god given right to things for nothing.
Can you give an example.
People asking for recycling services maybe?
Or maybe your just indirectly attacking someone for wanting to PAY for a fence to be installed on the back garden that they pay rent for without fear of having someone complain and have it pulled down, wasting their money?

I am not talking for myself on this one, I am talking about my neighbours too, because they too intend to install fences, and they too may face these problems.

Thankfully I'm getting more support than criticism on this one, well maybe not on this forum (although I do know there are some of you out there that care).
And I've made some new friends along the way.

On Wednesday I was shown a map of the area (that included my neighbours land that own their property and have plans stating the garden is for private use, as the finger (of the person with map) was swept across the whole area (consisting of 6 back gardens, 2 of which are for private use and state so in the plans and deeds, when they said "all this is communal land".
They stood outside in the cold for an hour or so, quite a few of them too (only two of them introduced themselves), they had called up a guy from "street force", to see why they are not cutting the garden, "they did not believe that they had to cut it, as the concrete barriers would damage the blades on the lawnmowers, and it would cost them a whole lot more to have someone come out independently with a strimmer and cut the gardens".

The girl in charge of my case (who I finally managed to apologise to in person for my outburst the other week) I believe to be genuinely holding our best interests at heart informed me that if no appeal was made within 21 days the decision made by the council would be permanent, and no fences would ever be allowed to be erected.
So the way I see it now is that we have to fight against some decision made by someone somewhere in the history of this estate that goes against the wishes of the majority of this block.

We are not going to let it ruin our Christmas, in fact neither me nor the Mrs are going to write out any appeals until after Christmas day, I'll just have to stare at my crimbo pressie as I pass it on the way to the loo, and kitchen, that's if it is indeed a complete shed as I won't find out until I put it up.

I couldn't stay outside and talk to them for too long, and whilst I was I found myself looking at the floor a lot, mainly for two reasons, the area out back is uncomfortable to look at for someone with my condition, and the lady I was speaking to was so pretty, I could feel the bashfulness approaching as well as the panic.

So for the meantime I will bid you all farewell, wish you all the merriest of festivities and will keep you all updated after the festive fuss.

Just to add though, one of the pieces of advice was that we could have a larger house with a back garden already fenced off quicker than it would take to build the fence, so after discussing, we are going to take this option too.

As I read the map offered, knowing what I know, then the map would have read, amenity area, and opposing block area are separated from this blocks area, no clear lines defining the privately owned (private to use) land from the supposed communal land.
So no lines separating the land we have claimed and tended to as our own from the land that is designated for private use (as per the titles plans).
So by the plans shown, all our area (going by the plans on the privately owned maisonettes and that shown by Sheffield Homes), all the maisonettes have a private area that is not marked out on the Sheffield Homes version of the map.

Another Ironic thing to note is the block opposite us, has a designated area (on the same map shown, that doesn't match the ordinance survey maps originally quoted, and did not in fact exist in physical terms this time last year, and if I wanted to be overly fussy it still does not represent the truth, as the corner property that erected their fence a few months ago has not conformed to the plans, which would give them a bigger garden as they have the corner bit, that they have not fenced off and is cut by Street Force, even though it is on the map as not communal land), so they can build their fences (even though the designated area is not segregated into separate allotments associated with each property.

The one phrase that I did lip read one of the group stating is "the amount of land we have lost because of this very issue", which then made me think, what issue are they referring to, someone wanting to put up a fence by the proper method, or people erecting them without proper permission, or is there some other issue that I am not aware of.

We recieved a call a couple of days ago verifying that we have been given permission to undertake the work.


Woohoo, our kids are gonna love it this summer now that they can play in the back garden.

A big big big thank you to Naomi at sheffield homes (the lady in charge of our case), Bob Mccann and all the others that helped to give us a positive start to the year.
I don't know what efforts have been taken, as I know nothing of what happens behind the scenes, but we are thankfull to everyone who have helped.

Very thankfull.

We recieved a call a couple of days ago verifying that we have been given permission to undertake the work.


Woohoo, our kids are gonna love it this summer now that they can play in the back garden.

A big big big thank you to Naomi at sheffield homes (the lady in charge of our case), Bob Mccann and all the others that helped to give us a positive start to the year.
I don't know what efforts have been taken, as I know nothing of what happens behind the scenes, but we are thankfull to everyone who have helped.

Very thankfull.


Congratulations, I hope it all works out ok, you deserve it after all the messing about.

Over twenty years experience of dealing with that lot though means I have to advise you to make sure you get it in writing!

We recieved a call a couple of days ago verifying that we have been given permission to undertake the work.


Woohoo, our kids are gonna love it this summer now that they can play in the back garden.

A big big big thank you to Naomi at sheffield homes (the lady in charge of our case), Bob Mccann and all the others that helped to give us a positive start to the year.
I don't know what efforts have been taken, as I know nothing of what happens behind the scenes, but we are thankfull to everyone who have helped.

Very thankfull.

Nice to hear you've had a positive outcome. Enjoy your garden this summer. :thumbsup:

Thank you for the nice replies, my wife has decided to drop the idea of having a fence altogether, too much hassle.

It was sounding positive from the phone call we recieved, but on obtaining this form to sign (another application), it looks like its been custom made specifically for my wife to sign, with conditions that contradict what we are trying to achieve.

I.E.

When I recieved the call, I asked how long the permission would last for, 90 days was the response, which I thought ok, I've read its three years elsewhere, and spoke to one person that built their fence 4 years after permission was granted.

But part of the conditions are that after 90 days, my wife re-applies for permission, which I believe would not have been included had I not asked.

And the one that made us think screw them, was this one:-

5. I understand that if permission is granted, Sheffield homes may withdraw it at any time if this causes a nuisance to any of my neighbours.

Define nuisance, if I go by what the wiki's and tort law tells me, then all they have sent me is an application for them to do exactly what we don't want them doing, which is pulling the fence down if a neighbour reports it as a nuisance, which is what one of the people in our neighbourhood have said they will do.
Define neighbours, does it mean the two lovely people I have either side of me, or does it mean everyone in the area?

Needless to say, my wife submitted her hand written application before christmas, why have they sent out another application, months on?

We've decided to start looking at buying a barge instead, and will use the money towards that.
My wife's uncle might have one for rent/sale.

And it would be nice to stick the middle finger up to sheffield homes when they lose the rent and council tax.

Considering there is no difference in laws between England and Scotland, the only accepted application I can find online is this one (without spending weeks hunting).
http://www.ukplanning.com/clackmannanshire/doc/Committee%20Report-5736192.doc?extension=.doc&id=5736192&location=VOLUME5&contentType=application/msword&pageCount=1
(BE WARNED IT IS A LINK TO A .DOC DIRECT DOWNLOAD)

And the person did not get any letter with conditions, all they had to do was hand write the plans (which we did last year), and the people that wanted to have it pulled down, did not get it pulled down.
But more importantly this section from the Councils Planning Considerations, struck me.

Whereas planning permission is invariably not required for fences around the back gardens of houses, the garden on this occasion is adjacent to a public footpath, hence the need for permission. - from the linked document above

So why do Sheffield Homes, say that people are illegally erecting fences, and that we have to apply for permission, when clearly other councils following the same laws and rules don't, one rule for one and one for another.


The grounds of concern are summarised as follows:-
the fence has an obstructive visual impact;
the fence threatens the open character of the communal area;
there are no other fences in a similar position in the surrounding properties;
the original developer’s plans describe the area as open space.


These were the arguments made against the above case by 6 different people, but there was 7 people that supported it.
As far as I know there is only 1 person with a problem with me building a fence, and the council want my wife to sign a paper saying she gives them permission pull it down should ANY neigbour report it as a nuisance.

Not only that, Meg Munn (labour councillor), pointed out a very interesting fact the last time she was up here.

It appears the gate that seperated all our communal area out front, from the public path and road, has vanished, you can see the paint marks on the wall that shows it once existed, and the post holes in the concrete.
And it is Sheffield Homes responsibilty to replace it, so i'm going to be getting onto them about that as well, it will achieve what we want, which is to have a secure area for our children, it will work on a communal level and not just for our kids, and more importantly, it won't cost us anything.

They always do this, whether it's fencing, planning, repairs etc etc. What the law says and what policy does are two entirely different things. It's enough to make you ill. Like the barge idea :)

Meanwhile fight them, don't let it drop. Let a solicitor take a look at it all because it's almost certainly not right. I could say a lot more about bad/ sharp practice and my experiences but it wouldn't be allowed on here, I suppose. Remember, to them it's a game or just a job, to you it's your home.