From Sky News:


Firefighters Take Unofficial Action
Firefighters are taking unofficial industrial action in a row over a pay deal intended to end the long-running fire service dispute.The action started last night in Norfolk and is expected to spread to other parts of the country.Unofficial sources said the action has already spread to parts of Scotland, Derbyshire, Wiltshire, Humberside, Norfolk, South Yorkshire and Nottinghamshire.

One firefighter involved in the action said firemen and women decided to answer only 999 calls in protest at an expected 7% pay rise being paid in two stages.

The Fire Brigades Union reacted angrily at the weekend after hearing that 3.5% will be paid on Friday, with the remaining 3.5% coming in the New Year.

Strikes, high crime rates, unions trying to flex their muscles, taxes spiralling out of control? Anyone would think we were under a Labour government.....

You could argue that they are manipulating the situation with it been this close to Guy Fawkes.

Originally posted by Lickszz
You could argue that they are manipulating the situation with it been this close to Guy Fawkes.
If you read the article you'll find that they are answering 999 calls, it's the daily stuff they're not doing like training, school visits, safety checks, etc. So the Guy Fawkes issue is a red herring.

I don't know how you'd feel if you were promised a pay rise then told that you would only get half, the other half being dependent on changes in your working practices. They spent months negotiating the award and then the authorities reneged on the deal.

Firefighters chose the career they're in. They get nearly £10,000 a year more than me in my day job. I'd gladly swap!

If they don't like the pay... get another job!

Originally posted by DaBouncer
Firefighters chose the career they're in. They get nearly £10,000 a year more than me in my day job. I'd gladly swap!

If they don't like the pay... get another job!
If you read the posts you'll see that this isn't about pay, it's about trust and broken promises. The pay award had been agreed but the employers then attached conditions afterwards.

It's ALL about pay. Whether an agreement has been broken or not is just another argument for the Firefighters Union.

This ALL started with pay. If pay hadn't been the issue there would be NO issue.

Yes the government shouldn't be giving the award in 2 stages, but they are doing the same with civil servants too.

Fact is tho, they should have the same rules as police. The police service are not allowed to strike, or be member of a union.
The same should apply to the fire service. End of!

Originally posted by DaBouncer
It's ALL about pay. Whether an agreement has been broken or not is just another argument for the Firefighters Union.

This ALL started with pay. If pay hadn't been the issue there would be NO issue.

Yes the government shouldn't be giving the award in 2 stages, but they are doing the same with civil servants too.

Fact is tho, they should have the same rules as police. The police service are not allowed to strike, or be member of a union.
The same should apply to the fire service. End of!

Why? So the government can continue to lie and take the **** out of them? After spending 15 days striking they came to an agreement. The 7% rise would be awarded this week as long as they signed up to the new working practices. The firefighters signed up to them months ago and are now being told they are only being awarded half the raise as the new working practices have to be verified and that will take until March. It's absolutely disgraceful and firefighters morale is at an all time low.

As for them changing career if they aren't happy about pay - that's ridiculous. They have been promised this pay rise for a long, long time. The disputes have been going on and off for years. Why shouldn't they be angry? What would you do if you were told you were going to get a raise only to get nothing, again! Firefighters are highly trained individuals who regularly put themselves in a lot more risk than your average guy walking down the street and should be rewarded as such. Nobody should have to put up with the crap they have had to over the last year or so.

[Edited by Tony Ruscoe - Swearing removed]

Neither do police officers but they aren't allowed to strike.
I'm sorry but if I was unhappy in my job as far as money is concerned then I would leave and find a job that suited the money I required.

They knew full well what the pay was when they signed up.
Firefighters 'like the rest of us' HAVE been getting pay rises each year (whether it being a fraction of inflation... same as MY job).

Police are not allowed to strike as there service is VITAL, the same should apply to the fireservice end of!

Striking is putting yours and mine lifes at risk. But that isn't my main argument. These firefighters wont allow the army to use the fire engines that WE (the tax payers) pay for. They have NO F****** right to do that. Fine if they don't want to provide the service they are paid VERY WELL for then they should let the army do it, with OUR fire engines.

You dont like your money, why blackmail the rest of the country? Find another job!

and the reason they didn't want the squaddies to use the fire engines was that they have absolutely no training on them whatsoever - letting someone loose in a 13 tonne specialist vehicle isn't the brightest of ideas.

Again back to the idea of changing job if you don't like the pay. Firefighting is a career not just a job. It's hard to get in to the service and there is a hell of a lot of training. People can't just walk in and out of it like a bar job etc.

How you get the idea of very well paid I do not know. It's below the national average for a start. Do you realise the horrific sights firefighters come across not to mention the dangers? One of my mates who was a firefighter in London (stationed in Sheffield now) had to attend a call where some guy had fell on the third rail in the Underground. His head had expanded to 3-4 times it's normal size - that would be seriously disturbing to a lot of people. Yet some arsehole pushing a pen around a desk will get more money than those who deal with stuff like that everyday. I suppose you'll be saying nurses are paid well next...

I must admit I have to support the firefighter in this one. It's precisely because they are an essential service that I believe they should be treated better. Whilst their wages of £16k may seem high to some people, they do have to run in and out of burning buildings on a daily basis, and I earn more for sitting at a pc all day making phone calls!! I think the attitude that they shouldn't be allowed to strike is a valid point, but if you removed their right to strike then how would they protest when they get ripped-off?

Originally posted by fnkysknky


How you get the idea of very well paid I do not know. It's below the national average for a start.

National average of who? I don't know many people on that kind of salary who would consider it 'average'.

'That kind of salary' - explain...?

National average wage is about £400 per week before tax...

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285

Which would give a rough salary of £19,200 per year. Which is more than I earn, and a lot more than the basic fireman's wage...

According to the National Statistics Office the national average gross wage for 2002 was £464.70

(http://www.moneynet.co.uk/about_us/survey.pdf - page 4)

(great minds think alike) :D

Originally posted by fnkysknky
According to the National Statistics Office the national average gross wage for 2002 was £464.70

(http://www.moneynet.co.uk/about_us/survey.pdf - page 4)

I bet most of the working UK population are on a lot less than that, and I'm one of them. I don't know where they get this 'average' from.

The information comes from the tax office, originally. It is a statiscal average only, and so will include all wages (so there will be some ridiculous ones at the top end that throw the balance slightly) but even so, it is an average wage. Even if you go by region it's still over £400...

Originally posted by fnkysknky
I suppose you'll be saying nurses are paid well next...
Don't try and undermind me or put words in my mouth.
For one I DONT think nurses are paid what they are worth.

Back on to firefighters.
Firefighters are currently on £20,000 per year. Now in Sheffield you tell me where a 'pen pusher' can get £20,000 basic with no qualifications? No where mate. Firefighter don't have to have any qualifications to join up. Granted a lot do, but it isn't necessary!

Yes in London £20,000 is pathetic, but they knew the wage when they joined, so why complain now.
No I don't think they ate paid enough either, but holding a country to ransom and risking my life, your life, anyones life for the sake of a salary is ********.

They should have trade unions discuss this properly rather than risking the lifes of you and me.

Pushing up their salary's to £30,000 EACH basic, is stupid and no governmnt worth it's status would give in to such unreasonable demands.

If you agree with the Firefighters on this one, lets just of YOUR mind changes if your house is on fire or your family car is in a serious accident and NO ONE comes to help.

I'm sorry but it's out of order. They should not be allowed to strike... end of.

They work 4 days on and 4 days off, and if they work nights and dont get a call (a friend of mine is a fireman in the Derbyshire district) they slep all night! OK yes I'll admit they put up with some horific scenes, but so do the police and the army. An army soldier who is military trained to a higher degree than a fireman gets just over £200 per week wages (basic starting salary).

Why should we give fireman any more than say £25,000 per yr starting salary?

French fireman get £14,000 per year and they have a much larger country. The UK has some of the highest paid firefighters in the world and they are becoming a joke in the eyes of foreign countries for striking and risking lives. It goes against the job. That very job that they think they deserve after holding the country to ransom.

******** to their demands!

Originally posted by Agent Dan
'That kind of salary' - explain...?

National average wage is about £400 per week before tax...

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285

Which would give a rough salary of £19,200 per year. Which is more than I earn, and a lot more than the basic fireman's wage...
Erm you ARE mistaken mate look here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/stoke/vote/2002/11/firefighters_vote.shtml)!

DaB, you're going off the deep end without reading the facts. The firemen are not putting lives at risk, they are answering emergencies. It's the associated tasks such as training, school visits and paperwork which they are refusing to do.

Again, this latest dispute is not about pay, it's about the employers going back on their word.

I know the facts Max. And as I've states before it's ALL about pay. It started with pay. They are striking because of the government went back on their word about their PAY.

True they are not totally striking THIS TIME or should that be YET.
And yes thats a good thing, put I was addressing the points of the full strikes which they STILL threaten.

Sorry max, you may be a mod, but you are wrong here mate!

DaB, you're also wrong about the pay that firefighters receive. You would have to have been in post over 3 years to get the £20k that you quoted. See here:

National pay scales (http://www.fireservice.co.uk/payscales.php)

I'll accept that. I will stand corrected on that issue.
But I was going on what was written on the BBC website.

So I took that as being correct.

However my friend who joined the North Derbyshire Fireservice started his basic wage on £19,000.

So either you figures are out of date, he got a higher starting wage or something went wrong in the system.

As the subject line implies, whatever I say here will be biased, as I'm a serving firefighter. As some of the correspondents have said, this dispute is all about broken promises. I have a letter from my union with the signatures of the general secretary and that of the employers secretary, saying quite clearly that the pay award would be paid in full from the 7th. November. On Friday the employers emailed the union saying that the payment would be staggered. It went on to say that if the union disagreed all of the increase would be paid sometime next year. When, was not spelled out.

Despite what the press say we are not a militant workforce, and we are not led by the nose by the union. We genuinely want to serve the community, but there is real anger at yet another broken promise from this government.

This strike is not about raising the wages, they've agreed to the stepped 16% increase - it's about being lied to and screwed over again. They were told they would receive the 7% this week and now only receive 3.5% - wouldn't you be irate, expecially with the history behind it? How else are the firemen supposed to show their disgust at the way they are being treated if they can't strike? They have had the decency to continue with 999 calls - like they had the decency to support the squaddies in the previous strikes when things could have gotten out of hand. I know a handful of firefighters and I respect them greatly - they are doing a great job even when the government are trying to take the absolute **** out of them. If they didn't strike what else are they going to do - cross their fingers and hope for the best? If you stop people striking you may as well put a dictator in charge of the country (hold on a minute don't we have one in Blair??!!).

I'm not trying to cause any problems DaB - you do seem like a nice enough chap it's just I feel very strong about my support for the firefighters... :)

Originally posted by firebobby
As the subject line implies, whatever I say here will be biased, as I'm a serving firefighter. As some of the correspondents have said, this dispute is all about broken promises. I have a letter from my union with the signatures of the general secretary and that of the employers secretary, saying quite clearly that the pay award would be paid in full from the 7th. November. On Friday the employers emailed the union saying that the payment would be staggered. It went on to say that if the union disagreed all of the increase would be paid sometime next year. When, was not spelled out.

Despite what the press say we are not a militant workforce, and we are not led by the nose by the union. We genuinely want to serve the community, but there is real anger at yet another broken promise from this government.
Firebobby I thank you for your comment and welcome them.
I appreciate that the government have indeed broken a promise with regards to your pay and you have a right to be angry.
I know firefighters are not paid what they are worth (neither are nurses), but you guys are not POORLY paid. Would you be the first to admit that? You may feel that your pay is not comparative to the work you do, the scenes you see, and what you have to endure, but you are paid pretty well as a basic wage where no qualifications are required to join the service.

I am not knocking firefighters skills and training… wwe have some of the best trained firefighters in the world.

My argument is that by striking (full strike last year.,.. not the one now) is putting lives of myself, my family and your family at risk. This is wholly unacceptable and one which I feel strongly against.

Originally posted by fnkysknky
I'm not trying to cause any problems DaB - you do seem like a nice enough chap it's just I feel very strong about my support for the firefighters... :)
I take no offence from your opinion mate. I accept it because you are entitled to it.

The only reason I am so strongly AGAINST strike is the human costs involved. Lives lost in the name of money.

Don't get me wrong, anywhere a government is involved in pay talks you are always going to get shafted!

but the thing is 999 calls are still being answered so we're all still safe(ish) :)

Originally posted by fnkysknky
but the thing is 999 calls are still being answered so we're all still safe(ish) :)
I know they are, but I also know where these strikes lead.
Which is where I'm coming from :thumbsup:

My argument is that by striking (full strike last year.,.. not the one now) is putting lives of myself, my family and your family at risk. This is wholly unacceptable and one which I feel strongly against. [/B][/QUOTE]

DaBouncer

I agree with everything you say, wer're not poorly paid. Depending on which figures you base income on, we're round about the average. The strike last year came out of frustration with the government, which for all it's hand's off stance pulls the strings of local government spending. We had a pay agreement that went back 25 years. Over that time the agreement worked against us as the manual workers that it was based on, gradually became less and less as heavy industry declined.

We had an agreement for a 16% rise over 3 years with the employers, at the last moment the government pulled the plug on that award. After many months trying to negotiate a new agreement, the offers were going down as the negotiations progressed. We didn't take the decision to strike lightly, but we felt an that we had to do something to keep pace with other workers.

I note that the consultants in the N.H.S. have just been awarded a substantial pay rise and can keep on with their private work. What is the difference between them and indeed the cabinet's 40% pay rise three years ago, and the rest of us?

I heard on the news last night that it's the union leaders who are to blame for not explaining that the full pay rise would only be awarded on full implementation of 'modernisation'.

I find it really hard to believe that these union leaders missed ( or misinterpretted )the 'small print' in the way that's being implied. Particularly as the whole modernisation question was such a big issue in the negotiations with the govt.

I understood that the pay rise wouldn't be staggered and that's what had been agreed but then like most people I was going on what was reported on the news.

Was the agreement worded so the modernisation that was agreed to couldn't actually be achieved by the dates set out in the agreement ?

I'd be interested to hear what Firebobby (or anyone else in the job) has to say about this.

[I'd be interested to hear what Firebobby (or anyone else in the job) has to say about this.

Hello Sian

As far as firefighters were concerned the payment would be made in full. From our point of view we thought the employers and ourselves both understood that was the case. As I said in a previous posting, up until last Friday we all thought that was this would happen. As to the fine print, it does indeed say that the payment would be examined by the Audit Commission to see that savings would be made by changes in our working practises, i.e. cost cutting. But we thought we had an agreement that said that this could be done retrospectively ( the 7th. November is our traditional new pay round ).

If the employers thought that we all knew that they would withhold part of the increase, why did they feel the need to write the email in the first place? I know this sounds paranoid, but I feel the heavy hand of government trying to make a point here. Did they feel that they had to make a macho gesture to let everyone know that they would look sternly on local government workers in the run up to the next pay round?

Whatever the reason, we still feel let down by our employers.

Hello Firebobby :)

The impression that I got from the news story was that the govt. had been deliberately misleading over this. We all know the union leaders aren't so dim to have somehow not noticed what they were agreeing to.

The govt. is going to do its best to convince people it was the union leaders' "mistake" though.

Nothing new there.

Originally posted by max
If you read the article you'll find that they are answering 999 calls, it's the daily stuff they're not doing like training, school visits, safety checks, etc. So the Guy Fawkes issue is a red herring.

I don't know how you'd feel if you were promised a pay rise then told that you would only get half, the other half being dependent on changes in your working practices. They spent months negotiating the award and then the authorities reneged on the deal.

Precisely Max. Does it or does it not mean that there is a disruption in service at one of the Fire Services busiest times?

For the record Max I support the fire fighters as I have done throughout.

My concern is who is going to strike next. I have a funny feeling it's going to be the teachers.

Don't start on teachers... that's much closer to home for me and very few people *genuinely* know what they're talking about when they start!!!

If the talk of another fire strike goes through again, I was wondering will there be enough Army personnel to man the stations with a large volume of them been tied up in Iraq.

A few questions:

Are the firemen/woman wages pro-rata, based on the number of days they work or is it a fixed annual wage?

What are the standard number of working days?

is it 4 days on/ 4 days off?

My sympatheis were NOT with the fire fighters during their strike ...

On more than one occasion I have seen a full blown fire-engine driving slowly down / parked on Carver street ... with the firemen just hanging out and chatting up girls (whilst holding up traffic etc).

I think it's really great that we pay them to drive around town cruising for chicks on a friday / saturday evening ...

Originally posted by John
A few questions:

Are the firemen/woman wages pro-rata, based on the number of days they work or is it a fixed annual wage?

What are the standard number of working days?

is it 4 days on/ 4 days off?

It is a fixed annual salary.
They work 2 days 2 nights together and then get 4 days off.

Originally posted by DaBouncer
Firefighters chose the career they're in. They get nearly £10,000 a year more than me in my day job. I'd gladly swap!

If they don't like the pay... get another job!

O.K then lets see how you would deal with the horrific sights and danger of personal injury. how many badly burned chidren could you deal with removing from house fires before you were a qwivering wreck? It takes a special kind of person to put there life on the line every shift and they deserve much more respect than they get.. My father badley injured himself attending a call and I cant begin to go in to how it felt waiting to find out how he was . he is my hero. and he crippled himself for what.. a crummy wage and people like you??

Here we go again?

Ballot papers are going to be sent out to more than 50,000 firefighters to vote on strike action in a row over bank holiday working.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3550404.stm

Bloody hell. A Labour government in power and we can barely go a day without Unions flexing their muscles.

My husband is a retired Firefighter in the States, 36 years on the Dept, thepay is good now, but back then it wasn't, no one wanted to do the job,now you have to take a test(not an easy one either) he gets a good pension now which seems to annoy a lot of people, all of who had the same chance to join the FD, he dosen't get Soc Security, that varies in different towns, don't know how that is in the UK.

Weekend and Holidays ment nothing in our house for years, he was always either working or on call, all part of the job, that bothered no one, but his pension did, the overtime was great, still is.

Also now they are first responders to every thing, they have to have EMT training,and an education along with it.

Going on Strike ? not too sure how I feel about that, do they have a union ? ours does, but you don't have to join.

The air traffic controllers went on strike few years back, look what happend to them !

Originally posted by t020
Bloody hell. A Labour government in power and we can barely go a day without Unions flexing their muscles.
or the government too, it seems.

JAMIE
If you see your firefighters just HANGING AROUND as you
say, it should please you to know your house is not on fire, and no one elses is.

Why do people need to see a fireman risking his life to earn his pay ? It might interest you to know Jamie, fire fighhters are just normal people too, only difference is they work harder then most people sitting at a computer all day long.

PS JAMIE, It might shock you also to know that fire fighters also like girls !