The BBC are broadcasting every note Beethoven wrote this month (mainly on Radio 3, but also including some TV programmes). I am really looking forward to Charles Hazlewood's TV drama documentary on Beethoven on Friday. I really enjoyed his programmes on Vivaldi and Mozart.

I too am looking forward to the drama. What an intelligent antidote it will [hopefully] be to the usual fare offered on television these days. I enjoyed the Mozart programme too. What a shame it is that most television caters for the lumpen underclasses; appalling, vulgar 'reality' rubbish, 'presented' by absolutely talentless people like the dreadful Davina McCall, and gurning, silly little boys like Ant and Dec. Neither McCall nor the Geordie grotesques are good enough for Butlins, never mind national television.

Re Beethoven, I know for certain that you will agree with me, Lord C, when I say that the Symphonies and Late String Quartets are serious contenders for the finest artistic creations in any human culture. To hell with the patronising Postmodernists and to hell with cultural relativism. If there is a composer as great as Beethoven, or indeed, as great as Haydn, Mozart, Schubert, Bach, Wagner, or Bruckner in any non-European culture, bring them on! I would be delighted to hear their compositions. Being reasonably familiar with the musical traditions of Asian and African cultures, I know that there are no such parallels. Neither are there any in Jazz [Coltrane, Davis etc], despite the efforts of certain critics and emotional/political forces who insist that, for example, the music of Duke Ellington, is 'Black Classical Music', and worthy of the same level of respect accorded to Beethoven, and other great art of the Western canon. The music of Beethoven fully deserves an 'every note ' celebration by the BBC.

I recall a particularly interesting concert at the City Hall a few years back with the Halle under Glorious Mark playing excerpts from Beethoven's works as accompaniment to John Suchet relating episodes in Beethoven's life.

We were given an insight into certain aspects of Beethoven (including one theory as to why he never married - The engraver couldn't read Beethoven's scrawl and a dedication to Therese, so he wrote what he thought he saw, hence the famous piece known as "Fuer Elise". A mere bagatelle!

Years ago I made a special visit to Bonn, then the capital of West Germany, and visited the Beethoven birthplace. Standing at the entrance to the room where he was born, there is a feeling as though the whole fabric of the house is softly humming the adagio from the Choral Symphony. A truly magical experience.

One wonders whether the BBC will also broadcast the short story by Richard Wagner "A pilgrimage to Beethoven"

I understand the it is the policy of the BBc to record all concerts featuring BBC orchestras, so with the BBC Philharmonic currently performing the symphonies to critical acclaim under Gianandrea Noseda, one hopes that these will be the recordings used for the symphonies. A shame that the orchestra will not be performing in Sheffield City Hall next season.

Interesting posting, Hopman. Your visit to Beethoven's birthplace sounds absolutely wonderful. I can hear the adagio from the Ninth in my mind right now. In the words of Alex from A Clockwork Orange, 'Lovely, lovely Ludwig Van'...

How wonderful to see an Anthony Burgess classic, echoes of Malcolm McDowel and Warren Clarke, and Beethoven mentioned in the same thread, classics all.

Welly welly welly well! If it isn't old Boppinbruce, my old droog. Why don't we tolchock an old veck together for old times sake? We could engage in a bit of the old ultraviolence, taking a malenky bit of cutter, oh my brother?

Your humble narrator did not realise that his old droogie was a fan of lovely, lovely Ludwig Van. Oh, bliss, bliss and heaven. Many is the night I lay nagoy to the ceiling, my gulliver on my rookers on the pillow, glazzies closed, rot open in bliss, slooshying the sluice of the lovely Ninth. Oh it is gorgeousness and gorgeosity made flesh. The trombones crunched redgold under the bed, and behind my gulliver the trumpets three-wise silverflamed, and there by the door the timps rolling through my guttiwuts and out again crunched like candy thunder. Oh it is wonder of wonders. And then, a bird of like rarest spun heavenmetal, or like silvery wine flowing in a spaceship, gravity all nonsense now, comes the violin solo above all the other strings, and those strings were like a cage of silk round the bed. Then flute and oboe bore like worms of like platinum, into the thick toffee gold and silver. Ah, lovely, lovely Ludwig Van!

Ooby doob? Just off for the nice fry of eggiwegs and lomticks of ham and bursting sausages and big bolshy mugs of hot sweet milky chai.

Appy polly loggies to thou who dost not understand nadsat.

Originally posted by timo
Welly welly welly well! If it isn't old Boppinbruce, my old droog. Why don't we tolchock an old veck together for old times sake? We could engage in a bit of the old ultraviolence, taking a malenky bit of cutter, oh my brother?



You know what Timo, if I get my old long-player of the Beatles' Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band out and plonk it on the platter, but spin it backwards with my thumb, then it says precisely what you have said up in that little white box above.

And that silly fella Mark Lewisohn always reckoned they were sayin '***** me like Superman'!

On another note (Eb(maj7)/add9) I'm looking forward to the Beethoven programme on Friday. I do hope Carol Vooderman's playing old Ludwig...,

Originally posted by timo
I too am looking forward to the drama. What an intelligent antidote it will [hopefully] be to the usual fare offered on television these days. I enjoyed the Mozart programme too. What a shame it is that most television caters for the lumpen underclasses; appalling, vulgar 'reality' rubbish, 'presented' by absolutely talentless people like the dreadful Davina McCall, and gurning, silly little boys like Ant and Dec. Neither McCall nor the Geordie grotesques are good enough for Butlins, never mind national television.

My God, someone I agree with on a South Yorkshire chat forum. ahhh, there is some sanity left in the world.

The Mark Steel Lecture on Beethoven was very good as well, very light. I could get away with watching it with people who didn't really listen to Beethoven due to Mark's accesable presentation.

Originally posted by timo
I too am looking forward to the drama. What an intelligent antidote it will [hopefully] be to the usual fare offered on television these days. I enjoyed the Mozart programme too. What a shame it is that most television caters for the lumpen underclasses; appalling, vulgar 'reality' rubbish, 'presented' by absolutely talentless people like the dreadful Davina McCall, and gurning, silly little boys like Ant and Dec. Neither McCall nor the Geordie grotesques are good enough for Butlins, never mind national television.

Re Beethoven, I know for certain that you will agree with me, Lord C, when I say that the Symphonies and Late String Quartets are serious contenders for the finest artistic creations in any human culture. To hell with the patronising Postmodernists and to hell with cultural relativism. If there is a composer as great as Beethoven, or indeed, as great as Haydn, Mozart, Schubert, Bach, Wagner, or Bruckner in any non-European culture, bring them on! I would be delighted to hear their compositions. Being reasonably familiar with the musical traditions of Asian and African cultures, I know that there are no such parallels. Neither are there any in Jazz [Coltrane, Davis etc], despite the efforts of certain critics and emotional/political forces who insist that, for example, the music of Duke Ellington, is 'Black Classical Music', and worthy of the same level of respect accorded to Beethoven, and other great art of the Western canon. The music of Beethoven fully deserves an 'every note ' celebration by the BBC.

Hi Timo,

Indeed! The idea that one form of creative achievement is as good as any other, or that the art of a culture must similarly be on a par with any other, has a long genealogy and is probably an amalgam of Benthamiite utilitarianism (pushpin is as good as poetry') and misplaced guilt feelings about Western cultural superiority. One of my pet hates at the moment is so called 'World Music' on Radio 3. Goodness, what awful drivel most of it is (or perhaps I'm missing something). I suppose its a product of some mission statement about cultural inclusiveness or appealing to new audiences.

Originally posted by timo
Welly welly welly well! If it isn't old Boppinbruce, my old droog. Why don't we tolchock an old veck together for old times sake? We could engage in a bit of the old ultraviolence, taking a malenky bit of cutter, oh my brother?

Your humble narrator did not realise that his old droogie was a fan of lovely, lovely Ludwig Van. Oh, bliss, bliss and heaven. Many is the night I lay nagoy to the ceiling, my gulliver on my rookers on the pillow, glazzies closed, rot open in bliss, slooshying the sluice of the lovely Ninth. Oh it is gorgeousness and gorgeosity made flesh. The trombones crunched redgold under the bed, and behind my gulliver the trumpets three-wise silverflamed, and there by the door the timps rolling through my guttiwuts and out again crunched like candy thunder. Oh it is wonder of wonders. And then, a bird of like rarest spun heavenmetal, or like silvery wine flowing in a spaceship, gravity all nonsense now, comes the violin solo above all the other strings, and those strings were like a cage of silk round the bed. Then flute and oboe bore like worms of like platinum, into the thick toffee gold and silver. Ah, lovely, lovely Ludwig Van!

Ooby doob? Just off for the nice fry of eggiwegs and lomticks of ham and bursting sausages and big bolshy mugs of hot sweet milky chai.

Appy polly loggies to thou who dost not understand nadsat.

Oi my stari droogs and tolchockers

Noticed the similarity between alexspeak and russki yazik?

Originally posted by Hopman
I recall a particularly interesting concert at the City Hall a few years back with the Halle under Glorious Mark playing excerpts from Beethoven's works as accompaniment to John Suchet relating episodes in Beethoven's life.

We were given an insight into certain aspects of Beethoven (including one theory as to why he never married - The engraver couldn't read Beethoven's scrawl and a dedication to Therese, so he wrote what he thought he saw, hence the famous piece known as "Fuer Elise". A mere bagatelle!

Years ago I made a special visit to Bonn, then the capital of West Germany, and visited the Beethoven birthplace. Standing at the entrance to the room where he was born, there is a feeling as though the whole fabric of the house is softly humming the adagio from the Choral Symphony. A truly magical experience.

One wonders whether the BBC will also broadcast the short story by Richard Wagner "A pilgrimage to Beethoven"

I understand the it is the policy of the BBc to record all concerts featuring BBC orchestras, so with the BBC Philharmonic currently performing the symphonies to critical acclaim under Gianandrea Noseda, one hopes that these will be the recordings used for the symphonies. A shame that the orchestra will not be performing in Sheffield City Hall next season.

Hopman,

I have been to his birthplace in Bonn several times and also to several of the houses he lived in in Vienna (he was by nature restless and frequently moved his lodgings). I have felt a frisson too - but as he is a genius for everywhere and for all time, the real frisson is in his music.

As for the Choral symphony, its no wonder that it is now indelibly associated with the fall of the Berlin Wall and is also the anthem of the EU - its both an ode to freedom and to joy, and indeed to hope and to the triumph over adversity, like much of Beethoven's music.

Lord C,
You are probably correct re the connection between utilitarianism and feelings of post-colonial guilt and cultural relativism. Re 'World Music', some of it is worthy of attention, for example the music of Nusrat Fatah Ali Khan [a Sufic], the Nigerian 'High Life' music of the late Fela Kuti, the classical ragas of Indian music ['Raga Yaman' etc], but in the main the genre appears to be quite patchy. Often it is a case of trying to make the very ordinary into something esoteric and exotic, i.e, a recording of some Pygmies of the Gabon Rainforest aimlessly strumming away on roughly-hewn stringed instruments billed as the 'exciting sound of Africa', or some Womad effort featuring an Inuit whalebone flautist who sounds rather like a distressed Skua, recorded 'live' in an igloo, with his wife doing the pots noisily in the background. I'll stick to the Western canon.

Lord C,

I think that it was the perormance by Leonard Bernstein of the 9th Symphony that took place on Christmas Day 1989 which celebrated the fall of the Berlin Wall. This was the performance which restored Schiller's original intention for his lyrics.

At the time Schiller wrote, it was not a free society, so rather than use the word "Freiheit" (freedom) he used the word "Freude" (joy). The Bernstein performance (recorded in Berlin) used the word Freiheit.

I would think that for anyone who attended this concert, or who was in Berlin at the time, this performance would have a tremendous resonance.

One of my own favourite performances is the 1951 bayreuth performance with Furtwangler on CD, and I remember a fine performance at the City hall a few years back with the Sheffield Philharmonic Chorus singing from memory - I think it was Nicholas Kraemer conducting.

Of course, there are other choral symphonies, but that's another story...

Originally posted by timo
Lord C,
You are probably correct re the connection between utilitarianism and feelings of post-colonial guilt and cultural relativism. Re 'World Music', some of it is worthy of attention, for example the music of Nusrat Fatah Ali Khan [a Sufic], the Nigerian 'High Life' music of the late Fela Kuti, the classical ragas of Indian music ['Raga Yaman' etc], but in the main the genre appears to be quite patchy. Often it is a case of trying to make the very ordinary into something esoteric and exotic, i.e, a recording of some Pygmies of the Gabon Rainforest aimlessly strumming away on roughly-hewn stringed instruments billed as the 'exciting sound of Africa', or some Womad effort featuring an Inuit whalebone flautist who sounds rather like a distressed Skua, recorded 'live' in an igloo, with his wife doing the pots noisily in the background. I'll stick to the Western canon.

Hi Timo,

Yes, I agree we should not dismiss so-called 'World Music' out of hand - to do so would be to dismiss the classical musics of India, China and Japan (for example) which would be silly. But the current BBC interpretation of 'World Music' (as for example presented by the egregious Andy Kershaw) seems to exclude these great oriental traditions in favour of esoteric strummings and wailings from obscure African and South American tribes. I have lived in West Africa and developed a liking for High Life music, which matches the culture and indeed the climate perfectly, although when I lived there the young people I mixed with were very knowledgeable about American (and indeed British) popular music as well. Its interesting that Western classical music is very popular (in a relative sense) in China and Japan, but far less so in other non-Western cultures. They don't know what they are missing

Originally posted by Hopman
Lord C,

I think that it was the perormance by Leonard Bernstein of the 9th Symphony that took place on Christmas Day 1989 which celebrated the fall of the Berlin Wall. This was the performance which restored Schiller's original intention for his lyrics.

At the time Schiller wrote, it was not a free society, so rather than use the word "Freiheit" (freedom) he used the word "Freude" (joy). The Bernstein performance (recorded in Berlin) used the word Freiheit.

I would think that for anyone who attended this concert, or who was in Berlin at the time, this performance would have a tremendous resonance.

One of my own favourite performances is the 1951 bayreuth performance with Furtwangler on CD, and I remember a fine performance at the City hall a few years back with the Sheffield Philharmonic Chorus singing from memory - I think it was Nicholas Kraemer conducting.

Of course, there are other choral symphonies, but that's another story...

Hi Hopman,

Very interesting post. The EU anthem has 'Ode to Joy', which i suppose derives from the implicit assumption that EU countries are already free, but aspire to joyfulness (particularly apt now, given the debacle of the recent referenda and the dismal performances of most EU economies). What would Beethoven have made of it? Well, when freedom is finally achieved at the end of Fidelio, there is an outpouring of joy, so perhaps the two are not that far apart.

I must say how much I enjoyed Hazlewood's doc/drama on Beethoven. The actor playing Beethoven gave a good performance, all intense and glowering. One could almost feel Beethoven's distress, bewilderment and fear as his hearing problems began to worsen. I am not known for sentimentality, but I will admit to feeling choked to watch something so very, very sad. God was working in a very mysterious way indeed when Beethoven, of all people, became deaf. Or perhaps it is just a case of awful irony, bad luck and blind, physical forces? Poor Beethoven. Poor all of us really, when you come to think of it.

Originally posted by timo
I must say how much I enjoyed Hazlewood's doc/drama on Beethoven. The actor playing Beethoven gave a good performance, all intense and glowering. One could almost feel Beethoven's distress, bewilderment and fear as his hearing problems began to worsen. I am not known for sentimentality, but I will admit to feeling choked to watch something so very, very sad. God was working in a very mysterious way indeed when Beethoven, of all people, became deaf. Or perhaps it is just a case of awful irony, bad luck and blind, physical forces? Poor Beethoven. Poor all of us really, when you come to think of it.

Hi Timo,

Indeed, what a bitter irony and it is no wonder B. contemplated suicide as his condition worsened. However, it may possibly have been a blessing in disguise for classical music, as B. may have become even more focused on creative endeavours than he would have been otherwise and he could still 'hear' sounds in his head. At the time he said that he intended to continue living to create music - and what music! It seems to be a good example of the Nietschean maxim that 'what doesn't destroy us makes us stronger'

His deafness was nevertheless cited by lesser composers of his day, such as Weber and Spohr, to explain their negative reactions to his later works - i.e. that these works were written by a man who was not only deaf but probably mad as well. Posterity, of course has a different judgement. I doubt whether radio 3 will be devoting an entire week's schedule to either Weber or Spohr any time soon.

Another irony (of much, much smaller significance) is that my TV packed up, so I missed Friday's programme. As I have satellite, I am sure I will catch up with it soon though. I am also re-reading Maynard Soloman's biography of Beethoven. Incidentally, a film is being made of Beethoven's later years. Antony Hopkins was asked to play B., but he turned it down, so he will now be played by Ed. Harris. I have seen pictures of harris as Beethoven and he does look like B. in the later portraits.

Timo - I totally agree that it made quite emotional viewing. It was that rarity - a programme that was informative, interesting and well-portrayed.

I sat there with my jaw dropped open almost in disbelief! Moving and exhilarating at the same time.

The piano movement - the rhapsodic one which could be the second movement to the Emporer (?) - where his fingers are literally cramming in every single note into one bar up and down the keyboard - came across as the sign of a madman, trying to shake off the imprending deafness.

Sad but compulsive viewing. Eat your heart out ITV!

Lord C,
Isn't it perfectly dreadful when a tv set decides to die just at that crucial moment? Hopefully you will catch up, as it is well worth it. As Ousetunes says, it was moving and exhilarating at the same time. You are correct re Spohr, I cannot see a 'Spohr' week in the offing. Surely there would be mass bewilderment if ever the BBC offered such a thing?!LOL.

Hi Timo,

Well, I managed to see the second installment, about Beethoven's middle years. It was interesting, but i didn't think that the actor who played him got him quite right. I know this sounds presumptuous, as of course I never got to meet the great man, but I suppose everyone has their own image of what he was really like.

As played by Rhys, he came over as petulant and prissy, to the point of obnoxiousness. B. was certainly cantankerous and argumentative, but he was probably far more than this. The intensity of B. was not I don't think quite captured by Rhys - but who knows?

As for Hazlewood's commentary, I thought it was very good. I would have preferred more of it (i.e. focusing on the music) rather than on the dramatic reconstructions, which didn't quite ring true.

Lord C,
Yes, there is something about the portrayal in the second episode which grates a little. Maybe Rhys is playing the great man as a bit of a ninny? I think he got the balance right in the first episode , especially re the composer's reactions to impending deafness. Mind you, we will never really know. Would that film had existed then, eh?! How wonderful it would have been to watch the real thing.

I see that the Sheffield Philharmonic Orchestra will be performing Beethoven's Fifth Symphony in November this year.
I heard them in action at the weekend and was greatly impressed in the Sibelius 2nd Symphony. The music seemed to bridge the ages between primeval times and the time it was written, yet also sounded modern.

What surprised me wasn't so much Beethoven's command of music, but more his command of English. (I understood every word he said!!)

He'd certainly put 'Allo, 'Allo to shame if he was around today.

Also, I didn't realise colour had been invented back then..:gag:

And you can download all of Beethoven's Symphonies for free from Radio 3, performed by BBC Philharmonic & conducted by Gianandrea Noseda.

Downloads here http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/beethoven/downloads.shtml

God bless Aunty Beeb eh?

Sibelius' 4th Symphony is playing in the background as I write. I love the 5th, Hopman, and agree that it can sound 'younger' than it actually is. My favourite Sibelius symphony is definately the 4th though. Some think it a rather austere and cold piece of music. I adore how it evokes a picture of a bleak landscape, and it is indeed intended to paint an aural picture of the Finnish lakes and forests. Having never been to Finland [though I have had the pleasure of tutoring Finnish students], my mind automatically turns to the screes of Wasdale in Cumberland whenever I hear the dark, ominous opening notes. The music is certainly capable of 'taking' the listener to some interesting mental landscapes, and of transforming time.

Does anyone else, aside from myself and Hopman appreciate Sibelius?

Originally posted by timo
Sibelius' 4th Symphony is playing in the background as I write. I love the 5th, Hopman, and agree that it can sound 'younger' than it actually is. My favourite Sibelius symphony is definately the 4th though. Some think it a rather austere and cold piece of music. I adore how it evokes a picture of a bleak landscape, and it is indeed intended to paint an aural picture of the Finnish lakes and forests. Having never been to Finland [though I have had the pleasure of tutoring Finnish students], my mind automatically turns to the screes of Wasdale in Cumberland whenever I hear the dark, ominous opening notes. The music is certainly capable of 'taking' the listener to some interesting mental landscapes, and of transforming time.

Does anyone else, aside from myself and Hopman appreciate Sibelius?

Indeed I do Timo. As well as lakes and forests, his music also evokes that oceanic feeling we discussed earlier in relation to Bruckner. Its interesting that Sibelius composed his works in the early part of his long life. He was also a very heavy drinker and I wonder if the drink took its toll on his creative powers. The other thing about Sibelius is that he is sometimes referred to as a nationalistic composer, whose works are linked to the drive for Finnish independence and which are meant to evoke the Finnish soul. In fact his music has a universal appeal and is for all time, I would say that Sibelius is more accessible for most listeners than either Bruckner of Mahler, because his music tends to have a clearer structure and overall is more melodic.

Excellent appraisal of Sibelius, Lord C. Sorry , by the way, for taking the thread away from Ludwig Van, O my brother. I agree with you re the similarity of Sibelius' music with that of Bruckner and Mahler [Mahler met and respected Sibelius], especially re the oceanic vastness of themes. You are right too re the greater accessibility of the music of Sibelius, it is more 'defined' and certainly more melodic. I think that we shall see Sibelius steadily grow in status and popularity in the 21st century, to the point where his symphonies are seen as being on par with those of Mahler and Bruckner. Personally, I don't think he ever matched the greatness of Mahler's 2nd or Bruckner's 8th, but that is just my opinion. I am sure that many would disagree with me.

I think that Mahler tried to encompass all the world in his symphonies and to my ears he included the human element (bugle calls being an obvious example).
In my mind Sibelius recreates the sounds of nature without the human element; the sound of the glaciers gouging out river valleys and moving rocks around.
When Mark Elder was in Sheffield recently he said that the reason that Sibelius sounds different comes from the sound patterns of the Finnish language e.g:

Helsinki perustettiin Ruotsin kuningas Kustaa Vaasan käskystä vuonna 1550 Vantaanjoen suulle. Kuninkaan antamalla käskyllä määrättiin Rauman, Ulvilan, Porvoon ja Tammisaaren kaupunkien porvarit muuttamaan Helsinkiin.

(Don't ask me what it means, but I think it's something to do with history.)

However, the reason why Sibelius wrote so much in his earlier life and so little later may well be down to his nationalistic tendencies. As a Finnish Patriot, he was living in an ocupied country in his earlier days and fought a guerilla war through music. (The music he wrote for the tableaux "Press Celebrations Music" and the early form of Karelia (as on Ondine) illustrate this.)
Once Finland had achieved its independence then the anger of occupation disappeared and he no longer felt the need to express his anger through music.

Thanks to the above posts, I'm now going to give a closer listen to Sibelius. I don't have an awful lot of his stuff but at least I have some! (Finlandia?)

I love Mahler and also Smetana's Ma Vlast (correct me if I'm wrong).

Thanks for your comments. I shall listen with a keener and more studious ear.

Well, I'm back here listening to Sibelius's Symphony No 2 in D. And I must admit to its being a piece of music I am not familiar with. Blazing horns and crashing cymbals in places.

The first word that springs to mind is 'brooding'. It's quite dense and funnily enough it makes me think of tall, dark trees where little daylight can get inbetween.

It will require a number of listens as there's quite a lot going on and yet little, for now at least, to pick up on.

Finlandia is also on this CD. I'm more familiar with that one.

Whilst I'm on here, and you're all classical music know-alls, when abouts are we talking regarding Sibelius?

Before or after Sha-Na-Na? (<<v .poor attempt at joke.)

Hopman,
You make some very interesting observations about the differences between the music of Mahler and that of Sibelius. I like the point you make regarding Mahler endeavouring to 'encompass' the world, including the 'human element' and Sibelius's contrasting attempt to 'recreate nature'. I agree up to a point. However, whilst Mahler was in the task of composing his 3rd Symphony, Bruno Walter turned up at Steinbach [Mahler worked in a hut in the middle of a field there], and stared in astonishment and wonder at the breathtaking mountain scenery. Mahler is alleged to have said, 'You needn't stand staring at that- I've already composed it all'. So, there may be grounds for arguing that Mahler too attempted to 'recreate nature'. The 4th Symphony too, seems to do the very same. Overall though, Hopman, I can see your point. There is more of an 'impersonal' quality to the music of Sibelius.

Ousetunes,
Sibelius was born in 1865 and died in 1957. An 8th Symphony was completed in 1929, but destroyed. The rest is inexorable silence.

Timo,

Have you ever come across Eugene Ormandy's account of meeting Sibelius fifty years ago?

http://home.flash.net/~park29/sibreminiscence.htm

interesting.

Hopman,
Thanks very much indeed for that info, which I have downloaded. Very interesting, especially the tantalising possibility that the 8th might exist somewhere. One never knows! It is nice to see that Ormandy favoured the 4th and 5th Symphonies, as they are my favourites too. To reiterate, I think Lord C is definately correct re the greater accessibility of Sibelius's music, when compared with that of Mahler and Bruckner. I think, in time, he will prove more popular as the 21st Century progresses.

Thanks again, it really is very nice of you to provide such interesting info, which I had never before come across.

Two more facts about Sibelius which I've read recently:
1. In his youth, his main language was Swedish.
2. Finlandia was used as the National Anthem of Biafra - which I suppose could lead on to a discussion regarding national Anthems and the question of why some other countries' anthems sound better than ours.

Putting aside Liechtenstein (who use ours) most of Europe has more rousing anthems.

Perhaps we could have some timeshare arrangement with other countries..

Originally posted by Hopman
Two more facts about Sibelius which I've read recently:
1. In his youth, his main language was Swedish.
2. Finlandia was used as the National Anthem of Biafra - which I

Finland's main language of law and government was also swedish, and finnish children were compelled to learn swedish up until quite recently. In fact sweden exercised an enorous amount of control over finnish affairs for a long time.

Many Finns rightfully resent this.

Finlandia will be seen by some, perhaps, as overwrought and hackneyed, but in spite of that I still find it one of the most stirring pieces of music ever made.

I knew a couple of students once who obtained a work placement in Finland. Before going, they brushed up on their Finnish (its said that you never finish learning Finnish).

When they got there though, they found that the main language being used in their Finnish location was Swedish.

Correct me if I am incorrect, but wasn't Sibelius an ethnic Swede [of Swedish parents]? Despite his Finnish patriotism, I think this is actually the case.