With the government about to cram through its ID cards bill, is this a simple crime and terrorism prevention measure, or is it one step further towards the total surveillance state?

Rather than debate ID cards, which is an issue in its own right, I'm really wondering whether there is a tendency within this government to try and extend surveillance of citizens. Once you have got everyone carrying a smart 'biometric' ID card, then you have a vehicle for an unprecedented level of surveillance with the minimum of effort. This combined with other technologies being touted as 'weapons in the fight against crime' such as facial recognition software, cctv, licence plate reading cameras, mobile phone cell information etc, adds up to a veritable arsenal, not only against crime, but to scrutinize the personal lives of every subject. The technological imperative is at work here. Surveillance is a field of technology that is constantly innovating and improving existing techniques, funded by private companies, governments and law enforcement agencies.

As each year passes a new technological marvel is unveiled that can perform some remarkable function in the field - and a government, with near bottomless pockets, has a great deal of technology and process to choose from, when considering the 'fight against crime'.

Is this anything to fear? Or do law abiding citizens, with nothing to hide, have nothing to fear from a state that wishes to observe them closely for signs of errant behaviour?

It might be quite possible, in the near future, to amass and collate personal information on individuals, and conclude that, through pattern analysis of known law breakers, the subject is going to commit a crime, at which point an intervention can be made.

Would this not be preferable to a state where an individual can 'disappear' or conspire to commit a crime, or even exhibit criminal patterns of activity without any direct evidence of a crime being committed?

If you have nothing to hide- whats the problem is my belief, as long as it doesn't intrude on the persons life or what he/she does on a day to day basis.

There may be a danger that means become ends in themselves, and because a technological innovation is possible, a use (good or ill) will be found for it. But I never never understood the almost visceral opposition to ID cards, or indeed to CCTV. Both in my view are beneficial to citizens and indeed to society as a whole. Many (most?) other advanced liberal democracies have ID card systems in operation. Of course, no ID card system will ever be perfect (I think the opponents tend to magnify the potential pitfalls and threats to civil liberties) but on balance I think they are a very good idea

I think they are a good idea, I used to carry an army ID card and it carried quite a bit of info on it back then.

I think we have been observed for much longer than we care to think about. If they can keep closer contact with those in our society that cause trouble then it has to be a good thing.

so in the interest of detecting 'criminals' you'd all give up pretty much any right to privacy that you currently enjoy.
Count me out, the government has no right to monitor my behaviour and no right to intervene in anything until a crime is commited.

How much privacy do you think we actually have then?

Originally posted by rosie
How much privacy do you think we actually have then?

is that the issue, because we have limited privacy now should we throw the rest of it away?

Originally posted by Cyclone
so in the interest of detecting 'criminals' you'd all give up pretty much any right to privacy that you currently enjoy.
Count me out, the government has no right to monitor my behaviour and no right to intervene in anything until a crime is commited.

This is an almost classic example of the level of argument put forward by the opponents of ID cards - i.e. very largely based on gross exaggeration and hyperbole

what information would we volunteer to our government.

Would we accept our movements, itineraries, diaries, emails, cash and card purchases, web browsing habits, sexual proclivities etc being stored on a central Identification register?

If not, why not? After all, if we have nothing to hide, and it helps fight crime....

I might be a bit simple as a female but if we are being watched more than we know, and if something that ultimately allows people to view what we are doing most times of the day, then it can help to stop crimes happening. We should see it as beneficial.

Obviously we are not going to like being monitored, but it has its advantages and I think for myself they outweigh the disadvantages.

When I rule the world :D everyone will be internally tagged at birth and monitored by GPS. Hey Presto the end of unsolved crimes and eventually crime itself. This is slightly flawed because the tags could be removed. Plus I guess there may be some morality issues in there somewhere too ;)

I personally do not like the idea of a group of people being able to monitor what I do and where I go.

Civil liberties ARE being eroded in the name of "crime prevention" and "fighting terrorism". I don't have anything to hide but that isn't the point.

If I ask a random stranger in the street where were you last night, or how much have you spent on your credit card, or prove who you are, I would reasonbly assume they would tell me that it was none of my business.

Why should it be different just cos its the powers that be that are asking?

I'm very strongly against ID cards - the 'well if you have nothing to hide' argument seems to me to be a bit weak. No I don't have anything to hide, but at the same time I have no wish to be numbered, filed, stored, analysed, sold, numbered or hacked. The governments is suggesting putting a phenominal amount of information on the cards (most of which are of only dubious use for identifying people) and given this governments frankly appalling record when it comes to computer systems does anyone really trust that this data will be stored accurately and safely?

Originally posted by evildrneil
I have no wish to be numbered, filed, stored, analysed, sold, numbered or hacked.

You already are though? whats the differance in carrying one more piece of plastic if it helps beat crime and other anti-social behavior?

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
what information would we volunteer to our government.

Would we accept our movements, itineraries, diaries, emails, cash and card purchases, web browsing habits, sexual proclivities etc being stored on a central Identification register?

If not, why not? After all, if we have nothing to hide, and it helps fight crime....

I presume that's said tongue firmly in cheek?

Part of the problem is that the government is made up of people, and you ultimately have the question of who is watching the watchers. Another part is that the government is notoriously unreliable and fragmented. Why should it be possible for someone from your local council (whatever department) to find out some of these things? The answer is that it shouldn't, but it almost certainly would be.
And of course why should we be so trusting, just because the government waves the terrorist flag you all assume that somehow these measures would actually be of any use, I fail to see how being able to prove who I am (as if I couldn't do that now) would stop a terrorist from blowing something up.
Or given that most terrorists are a) unknown and b) not British nationals how an id card system or any amount of surveillance would actually impede them at all.

Originally posted by scottf
You already are though? whats the differance in carrying one more piece of plastic if it helps beat crime and other anti-social behavior?

how exactly will it do that? when you're mugged will you demand to see the id of the mugger? If someone burgles your house will they swipe it in your door reader?

I agree with the reasons they state for having ID cards but can't see how ID cards will actually achieve ithem. In an ideal world everyone would be uniquely identifiable and could be traced and located at any time. This genuinely would help with crime at all levels. This is unachievable so there is little point making unrealistic claims about what ID cards could achieve.

Originally posted by scottf
You already are though?

To a degree yes - but that doesn't mean I have to like it or to accept any further errosion of my almost negligable privacy

whats the differance in carrying one more piece of plastic if it helps beat crime and other anti-social behavior?

Now theres a very important if - just how exactly would an ID card beat crime, terrorism, or any other anti-social behaviour? Once you work out that it won't be of any use for that you have to ask yourself just why are they being pushed so hard?

Also its not the card you should worry about but the database of biometric data that the governement will have on you and what that database will be linked to - criminal records? DVLA? medical records? census records? book and video library loans? and what happens when someone has the bright idea to mine all that data...

Germany and Spain have ID cards. No crime or terrorism in those countries, is there ?

Originally posted by Cyclone
I presume that's said tongue firmly in cheek?

Part of the problem is that the government is made up of people, and you ultimately have the question of who is watching the watchers. Another part is that the government is notoriously unreliable and fragmented. Why should it be possible for someone from your local council (whatever department) to find out some of these things? The answer is that it shouldn't, but it almost certainly would be.
And of course why should we be so trusting, just because the government waves the terrorist flag you all assume that somehow these measures would actually be of any use, I fail to see how being able to prove who I am (as if I couldn't do that now) would stop a terrorist from blowing something up.
Or given that most terrorists are a) unknown and b) not British nationals how an id card system or any amount of surveillance would actually impede them at all.

Well yes of course, it was tongue in cheek, but I was asking myself this question today - precisely what information would I be happy for the state to collect and collate about me - and what could be deduced from this information.

In the 60s the US intelligence services collectively realised that a lot of the secrets they had were not secrets - because early information mining techniques were starting to reveal "hidden truths" in seemingly unrelated data.

Whether we have ID cards or not, it is clear that the state, in addition to institutions and companies, are gathering vast quantities of personal data, and are constantly finding new and interesting ways of looking at the same data.

What will happen, I believe, is that if the trend continues unabated, and with the help pf a few more data sharing bills ( currently sharing subjects' personal data between civil departments contravenes the DPA), more information about us than we know ourselves will be available to anyone with the privileges to access the information.

The sheer possibilities thrown up by this kind of mass analysis are mindboggling.

Convicted criminals could have their aggregated information analysed and compared against statistical information from the whole database, and I'm certain clear indicators of criminal intent would arise from the analysis.

These indicators could then be used to identify other citizens who are almost certainly pursuing a life of crime, and interventions could be made.

Laws could be made with a realistic idea of how many people will be in breach of them at the moment they are enacted. And give us their names and addresses and current locations.


So what I'm asking is, are ID cards the thin end of the wedge, or is my near future scenario too outlandish for words? (false dichotomy I know, but indulge me?)

Eutopia/Dystopia? Do we get to decide?

Originally posted by Cols
Germany and Spain have ID cards. No crime or terrorism in those countries, is there ?
Similarly, are you trying to say that civil-liberties are significantly more eroded in those countries then?

:confused:

Originally posted by Phanerothyme So what I'm asking is, are ID cards the thin end of the wedge, or is my near future scenario too outlandish for words? (false dichotomy I know, but indulge me?)

Your near future scenario is far too possible to think about without shuddering! I spend a reasonable amount of my time doing data mining and the information and predictions it throws up can be both accurate and terrifyingly plausable but not actaully correct...

Eutopia/Dystopia? Do we get to decide?

<bitter sarcasm>Of course we do - once every 5 years</bitter sarcasm>

Laws could be made with a realistic idea of how many people will be in breach of them at the moment they are enacted. And give us their names and addresses and current locations.


better still they could estimate the exact amount of revenue that would be generated for any given fine and just debit it straight from your account.

Budget shortfall, quick outlaw something and slap a £30 fine on it.

Well, if DNA sequence information is kept as a part of this database, it would provide an unparalleled opportunity to correlate genetics with behaviour.

When the last government department is outsourced we will no longer have control over who has access to this information and what use will be made of it.

In a universe just next door
"May I see your ID card sir"
"Certainly officer"
"Thank you" <terminal beeps> "Right Mr Witless Hippy, you are under arrest on suspicion of future possesion of a controlled substance."
"eh?"
"There is a 98% probability that you are on your way to purchase illegal pure tobacco cigarettes from an illicit source. You have a £50 note in your pocket, you purchased a box of matches this afternoon,"

"um, no I'm having a dinner party, candles , you see, er"

"...and deposited money in a chewing gum dispenser. Your DNA profile reveals a dopamine metabolitic deficiency that renders you prone to addictive behaviour, your pulse is raised and your skin conductivity is steadily rising mr Hippy, need I go on?"

"it's a fair cop"

"I am arresting you for conspiracy to deal in controlled substances mr hippy, do you have anything to say before I pass sentence?"

{bzzzt} [thud]

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
being stored on a central Identification register?



This is the single most worrying aspect of the current push towards ID cards..


The records will need to be stored in a central database...

Which needs to be accessible from other "terminals"....


Which "could" be hacked!

As someone said on the radio yesterday, the introduction of compulsary ID cards fundamentally changes the relationship between the people and the government.

Those in power are elected by, and work for, the people, not the other way round.

In addition, I'm still none the wiser as to how these things can possibly do anything to stop terrorism.

And taking into account the astronomical cost and shocking levels of reliability in terms of biometric data, this is all set to become an absolute fiasco.

It is indeed - basically unless and untill there is a DEMONSTRABLE as opposed to political benefit to people by the introduction of ID cards then they shouldn't be introduced...

Blair & Co have brought in big brother by the back door.

For instance in Newham in east London, which I believe has the highest CCTV camera rate to population in the world. They have cameras on top of every main road, every tall building, block of flats, bus lanes, schools, factory's and warehouses.

They say it is for the public safety but Newham has one of the highest crime rates in the whole of the UK and police have a reputation for not responding to anything bar GBH or a stabbing.

They have pedestrianised large parts of Newham and yet the police only go around in cars and vans, never on foot.

ID cards, photo driving licenses, new computer chip passports. Nobody allowed to be paid cash in hand, but must go through a bank, 50 pages of forms for everything.

:rolleyes:

Make no mistake, if 'they' want to carry out surveillance on you then it is incredibly easy already. Mobile phone calls, texts, etc can be traced right down to where you were when you made or received them, and e-mails and internet activity can also be monitored without our knowledge. So if they wanted to watch you then they already could do. The only way to avoid all of this would be to drop off the radar entirely by not having a job which pays NI or tax, no bank account, no use of NHS, and not using any tech communications.

The difference with ID cards is that while anyone like this could now be stopped in the street and give any old name or address, with an ID card, they cannot. So that is their purpose.

The funny thing about objection to ID cards is that most people say "I've nothing to hide, what does it matter?" but when they find out they will have to pay for one, most people suddenly change their tune! The government could easily bring them in if they were free, but they might have serious trouble if people have to pay.

Originally posted by Mathom
Make no mistake, if 'they' want to carry out surveillance on you then it is incredibly easy already. Mobile phone calls, texts, etc can be traced right down to where you were when you made or received them, and e-mails and internet activity can also be monitored without our knowledge. So if they wanted to watch you then they already could do. The only way to avoid all of this would be to drop off the radar entirely by not having a job which pays NI or tax, no bank account, no use of NHS, and not using any tech communications.

The difference with ID cards is that while anyone like this could now be stopped in the street and give any old name or address, with an ID card, they cannot. So that is their purpose.

The funny thing about objection to ID cards is that most people say "I've nothing to hide, what does it matter?" but when they find out they will have to pay for one, most people suddenly change their tune! The government could easily bring them in if they were free, but they might have serious trouble if people have to pay.

It's not so much a matter of big brother watching us individually, as I tried to explain earlier.

The Central Identity Register is actually the big idea behind ID cards. This will be a database of information about each and every specific individual in the UK. No one said it wasn't (wildly) ambitious.

The point I was trying to make is that with all this data collected about you, a skilled analysis of all your data on the Central Identity Register, could easily be aggregated with your credit card data, your car licence plate movements and so on, for perfectly routine uses, such as road charging, debt counselling whatever.

But simply having all this information in a neatly tabulated format gives the database operator unprecedented powers to discover things about you that even you don't know. Should they wish to do so.

And as we know, no computer system is 100% secure. Some government officials and police officers are corruptible. You have to accept the fact that the system will be open to abuse.

The technological path is definitely, inexorably, leading towards the total surveillance state, and it is for our own protection. At first.

But it does put some rather tempting levers at the hands of powers that be, that perhaps should be guarded against.

I think the chief difference between this country and european countries that already have IDs, is that these countries also have written constitutions enforceable in the law courts that protect the citizens from abuses by the legislature and executive. British subjects do not have this feature.

Written constitutions is another debate entirely....

Over the past three or four decades we have been increasingly tagged , checked , filmed , photographed , questioned , entered on computers and bombarded with information on how we should behave and how to report those who committ crimes.
At precisely the same time , the number of crimes and anti-social behaviour has spiralled. Rather strange innit ?
Maybe if the authorities spent more money , time and energy on stamping out the serious offenders , who make everyone's life a misery and less money , time and energy on collecting vast amounts of information on everybody , we'd all be better off.
As , I think Cyclone pointed out , I.D. cards won't stop foreign terrorists and how the hell does it stop a U.K. -born person who decides to become a terrorist ? Terrorists are presumably a bit too sophisticated to be put off by I.D. cards.
In what was probably the most regulated , checked and supervised country in the world----the old East Germany , when the Stasi files were examined after the fall of Communism , about 95 % of it was trivial , useless and had never been acted upon. Our only hope for retaining what freedom we have is that the Control -Freakery will implode.
"If you've nothing to hide , why worry ? " That's precisely what any dictatorship tells its citizens.

(apols_space_bar_broken)

This_Government_fail_to_implement_anything_that_ac tually_works,_because_they_always_try_to_do_it_on_ the_cheap.

How_long_have_we_had_the_National_Insurance_number s?__They_still_can't_get_this_simple_process_right ,_there_are_so_many_duplicate_numbers_etc.

My_worry_is_when_they_get_it_wrong,_how_do_you_pro ve_you_are/aren't_the_person_on_the_ID_card?

__And_what_will_happen_when_they_privatise_it?

Everyone_always_complains_about_the_impartial_civi l_servants,_but_they_are_so_much_better_than_priva te_industry_being_responsible_for_all_that_persona l_information.

They_ought_to_concentrate_on_getting_the_existing_ systems_working_properly_before_they_start_wasting _hundreds_of_millions_of_pounds_on_yet_another_sys tem_which_will,_without_doubt_be_equally_as_ineffe ctive.

Another little thing to consider by those who don't seem bothered by how much they're watched :--
If it becomes acceptable and habitual for a government to have so much information and control , well , then , it's a nice easy step , physically and psychologically , for a possible extreme Left or extreme Right - wing government to use those same powers and all that information. After all , all the groundwork has been done for them !

Here in the US, where almost everyone over the age of sixteen has a driver's license, it has become an ID card, whether we like it or not. Anyone under 25 buying cigarettes has to produce it as it has your birth date on it. It has become so ridiculous that in certain stores the cashier has to ask anyone regardless of age for their ID to buy cigs or beer. I have known non drivers try to use their passports as ID only to have them refused. And this is the land of the free! So if you're coming over and you're under 21 forget about alcohol, you ain't gettin any.

Also in the US, if you are witness to or know of a drug felony that has taken place, is taking place or will take place, you must inform the Law Enforcement Authorities within 24 hours. Otherwise you will also be commiting a felony.

Compelled to incriminate your family in fact.

Originally posted by buck
Here in the US, where almost everyone over the age of sixteen has a driver's license, it has become an ID card, whether we like it or not. Anyone under 25 buying cigarettes has to produce it as it has your birth date on it. It has become so ridiculous that in certain stores the cashier has to ask anyone regardless of age for their ID to buy cigs or beer. I have known non drivers try to use their passports as ID only to have them refused. And this is the land of the free! So if you're coming over and you're under 21 forget about alcohol, you ain't gettin any.

The passport in the uk has been photo id for longer than i've been alive. Why this cannot be used as proof of id and we require a seperate scheme (that will happen to be charged a ridiculous amount for) I don't know.

Just came across this amusing website:

http://georgetoft.com/presentations/information_privacy/pizza_order.swf

Don't worry about the ID card, just wait til you have to renew your passport.
Blair has just announced that the ID will only cost £30 (OR SO?) more than a biometric passport. I don't think that a possible price for that has been muted about yet. It will obviously contain all and possibly more personal information as needed for the ID, and as so, why bother to have one at all.
Perhaps Tesco's or Virgin should step in, Two for the price of One.
I renewed mine this year, so I hope I will get an upgrade at a vastly reduced price.

How many people have cards such as a TESCO clubcard?

I have.

They've got your name/ address/ shopping habits/ Switch card/Credit card/ whereabouts(store ID) at a recorded time/ etc.

And how willingly do we hand them over for a few poxy points?

It's the first step.

It worries me that the data bases for personal ID are held in such places that unscruplious employees are willing to sell your info for a pittance like the recent breech in info security at the Indian Call Ctr.

Alarmingly, the biometric data held may pre-exclude you from insurance, a mortgage, credit due to an undiagnosed illness or genetic predisposition to disease.

On a more positive note. The horrible people who get drunk & urinate in town would be identified by a simple matching test!
P!$$ easy:hihi:

Originally posted by Cyclone
The passport in the uk has been photo id for longer than i've been alive. Why this cannot be used as proof of id and we require a seperate scheme (that will happen to be charged a ridiculous amount for) I don't know.

Because the state wants to create a complete biometric national database

You only need a passport if you want to travel abroad.

But you will be compelled to have (and ultimately carry) an ID card linked to the national database.

It's the database that worries me.

But like the man says, if we have nothing to hide, what are we worried about?

Originally posted by evildrneil
Also its not the card you should worry about but the database of biometric data that the governement will have on you and what that database will be linked to - criminal records? DVLA? medical records? census records? book and video library loans? and what happens when someone has the bright idea to mine all that data...

It's already happening... one of the credit reference agencies (Experian or Equifax, can't remember which) has quietly been assembling all manner of data about us for some considerable time and David Blunkett (when he was Home Secretary) made a deal with them to link all the info they have to the ID cards database.

Pay-Pal have also been contacted by the government, to discourage people from buying tobacco via the net. Sneaky Barstewards aren't they

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Because the state wants to create a complete biometric national database

You only need a passport if you want to travel abroad.

But you will be compelled to have (and ultimately carry) an ID card linked to the national database.

It's the database that worries me.

But like the man says, if we have nothing to hide, what are we worried about?

yep, and the worrying thing is that there is absolutely no reason for a central repository on security grounds, which is how this is all being sold to us.
At least it appears that backbenchers, lib dems and conservatives will probably not allow this bill to pass at the moment.

Originally posted by Cyclone
yep, and the worrying thing is that there is absolutely no reason for a central repository on security grounds, which is how this is all being sold to us.
At least it appears that backbenchers, lib dems and conservatives will probably not allow this bill to pass at the moment.

I think it will actually get through it's first reading; it's a bit early in the parliament for any PLP member with a backbone to take a stand. They will probably stall any rebellion plans until the rest of the opposition to this bill has got properly organised.

The amendment proposed to stop a second reading will probably not be carried.

I think the concerted campaign to bury this bill will start later, not now.

Yes, does it actually seem our dystopia is finally happening? And so blatent with it.
What a good idea to carry one card with you that has all the info you will personally ever need for account access, ID, etc. You can even have this card open your front door. Imagine going out with nothing more required than your clothes and a card. Shame to lose it, wouldnt it. As it stands, having available lots of forms of ID is safer as if you lose one, you still have the others to prove, at least in part, who you are.
So I suppose the more importance that is based on the card will finally lead to the point where it would be socially irresponsible to lose it. Then someone will offer sub-cutaneous micro chips so you dont have to worry about embarrassing yourself. Hmm.
But why bother though? Why go to all this trouble to isolate and identify and track citizens. What is the ultimate reason for it?
Personally I don't like the whole thing. If a policeman asks me why I haven't got my ID with me, then I will answer him/her/it/robot: ' Why Sir, I haven't got anything to hide, therefore you haven't got anything to worry about '.

Or answer "I don't carry important things, in case I get mugged"
Sir.

Picture the scene 13 months from today:

TOPIC TITLE: Has anyone else on here ever forgotten their papers?

I booked my Midland Mainline tickets to London well in advance 'cause I knew I could get them cheap. I was so excited about seeing the final night live: I watch the show every year religiously; the term Big Brother means so much to me, I understand everything about it! (I have watched every series after all)!

Anyway, got to the train station, and there was some big security alert... again!!!!!

*bangs hand against head thinking..."This didn't used to happen all the time... what's changed?"*

I still can't believe what happened next... Couldn't produce my ID card could I?
(Lost it last week somewhere between BRB and Walkabout on Friday night :hihi: ).

Anyway, I got taken into custody.

Only got out yesterday, when my mum turned up and proved who I was. (Lucky she looks after her ID card or she could have been in here with me!)

Anyone else on the Forum been this unlucky?????

Picture the scene 13 months from today::

Someone tries to open a bank account with the ID card you've lost so they can launder money from their drug operations. Thank god the bio-metrics on your ID card meant this person was found out and arrested before he could go through with it. :clap:

I can appreciate both points of view.

But if the Government wants us to have ID cards, it should pay for them. We're taxed to the hilt as it is.

If we have to pay - for what is a Government initiative - it's another way of taxing us.

Originally posted by dishwasher
I can appreciate both points of view.

But if the Government wants us to have ID cards, it should pay for them. We're taxed to the hilt as it is.

If we have to pay - for what is a Government initiative - it's another way of taxing us.

There isn't such a thing as the government having to pay! Where exactly, does the government get its money from? Yes, us!!

I agree that we shouldn't have to fork out AGAIN, but whatever the cost, and no matter how it will be 'funded', we as usual will be the ones paying for it.

Anyway, with this lot I've grown used to being taxed to my eyeballs for utterly useless schemes.

Millennium Dome anyone?

Do it Tony, let it be your poll tax and then hopefully we can kiss your ass goodbye.

Deavon, I wouldn't worry too much about 13 months from now.

Given this govt.'s record on IT schemes the whole thing will come crashing down like a house of cards before it's complete. It will probaly take decades for them to claim with any degree of certainty that everyone is included in the system.

OTOH of course with the scheme being biometric all the cops will need is a portable iris and fingerprint scanner linked to the Big Brother computer to ID you where-ever they're doing checks ??? So you don't need to carry it with you :D

I think a lot of people including the government are neglecting to see one very important point...

its not just illegal immigrants that cause threats of terror in this country, do they honestly believe we dont have our own physco's, murderers, rapists, bomb fanatics etc?

theres a bomb threat at an airport, you produce a valid ID card and that automatically means it couldn't possibly be you? YEAH RIGHT!!

now the ID cards, i'm semi partial to, apart from the fact I dont see why we should pay for them and I dont like the idea that there will be database with our retina, finger print and DNA on... they might have a small use...

what I totally disagree on is the national database with all our info on that is going to be badly designed and insecure... i strongly protest to this... there is this thing called privacy and it should be our right to have it unless there is a matter of high security risk in the country

Even if all the information they collect to put on our I.D cards is correct [ and going on previous government-inspired computer antics , this is very unlikely ! ] , imagine what power this will give to any possible future extreme left-wing or right-wing government ! All the , "ground work " will have been done for them .
The naifs who say , " Well if you've nothing to hide , why be bothered about total surveillance ?" , never have the intelligence to see that that is what all dictators say !
Can you seriously imagine an experienced foreign terrorist or a home-grown one , seriously being put off by I. D. cards ?
They have I.D. cards in Spain , Turkey and Russia . Ring any bells ?

especially when they are going to use passports and birth certificates as proof of who you are to get one - they've never been counterfeited have they? We are safe...

:nono:

Originally posted by dishwasher
I can appreciate both points of view.

But if the Government wants us to have ID cards, it should pay for them. We're taxed to the hilt as it is.

If we have to pay - for what is a Government initiative - it's another way of taxing us.

Do you have a passport? Did you object so strongly to paying for that?

Originally posted by limpetboy
Do you have a passport? Did you object so strongly to paying for that?

Yes, but a passport is a document that is designed to permit free passage. Read what your passport says. It is an affirmation of freedom.

An ID card is designed to control, regulate, constrict and keep watch.

There is a world of difference.

If they are going to be using passports as ID to get ID cards, what about those people who dont have one, which a lot of people i know dont, are these people going to have to pay out to get a passport to act as proof of identity to then pay out and get the ID card?

Susie
xx

But it will also, at some point reasonably soon, hold biometric data, which in turn will be held on a database and be available to the Government.

Where do you draw the line?

Originally posted by limpetboy
Do you have a passport? Did you object so strongly to paying for that?

ive never had a passport :)

dont want one either :)

I think having ID cards is a ridiculous idea especially when the government expect us to pay for them. Do you know how much they are thinking of charging us for these cards £200 each. As if we dont pay enough money to the government for other stupid things such as council tax, what the heck do we get for that, NOTHING! The government stinks!! Its like living years ago in war times having to prove who you are to live in your own flaming country just because of these illegal immigrants and assylum seekers. It makes me sick!!

Originally posted by Deavon
Picture the scene 13 months from today:

TOPIC TITLE: Has anyone else on here ever forgotten their papers?

I booked my Midland Mainline tickets to London well in advance 'cause I knew I could get them cheap. I was so excited about seeing the final night live: I watch the show every year religiously; the term Big Brother means so much to me, I understand everything about it! (I have watched every series after all)!

Anyway, got to the train station, and there was some big security alert... again!!!!!

*bangs hand against head thinking..."This didn't used to happen all the time... what's changed?"*

I still can't believe what happened next... Couldn't produce my ID card could I?
(Lost it last week somewhere between BRB and Walkabout on Friday night :hihi: ).

Anyway, I got taken into custody.

Only got out yesterday, when my mum turned up and proved who I was. (Lucky she looks after her ID card or she could have been in here with me!)

Anyone else on the Forum been this unlucky?????

Err, even if in 13 months time we have ID cards, you will not be asked to produce them to prove who you are to the police! I.e. you will not be stopped in the street and asked for your ID card!

So your imaginative story has no relevance!

Originally posted by serapis
Err, even if in 13 months time we have ID cards, you will not be asked to produce them to prove who you are to the police! I.e. you will not be stopped in the street and asked for your ID card!

So your imaginative story has no relevance!

They will be compulsary soon enough. Otherwise the entire exercise is pointless.

<rant type="can't be bothered">
Don't even start me on the subject of ID cards.

Anyone who cares about civil liberties, sign the pledge (http://www.pledgebank.com/refuse)
</rant>

Originally posted by Jillybabes
........Do you know how much they are thinking of charging us for these cards £200 each.

errr... I think you've been reading too many scandal rags :o . In reality they are expected to cost an additional £30 :thumbsup:

Originally posted by Greenback
They will be compulsary soon enough. Otherwise the entire exercise is pointless.

You may want to go back and re-read my post, I didn't even talk about if they would be compulsory or not!

I said you won’t be stopped in the street and asked to produce your ID card, like something from Nazi occupied Europe!

Originally posted by Scutts
Picture the scene 13 months from today::

Someone tries to open a bank account with the ID card you've lost so they can launder money from their drug operations. Thank god the bio-metrics on your ID card meant this person was found out and arrested before he could go through with it. :clap:

Until someone successfully forges it. i.e about 11 months from now.

There are a massive 50 categories of “registable fact” on these ID card, to get a picture of what details will be actually on

Personal Information - names, date and place of birth, gender, address;
Identifying Information - photograph, fingerprint, other biometric information;
Residential Status - nationality, entitlement to remain, terms and conditions of that entitlement; Personel Reference Numbers - National Identity Registration Number and other government issued numbers, and validity periods of related documents;
Record History - historical information previously recorded, audit trail of changes and date of death:
Registration History - dates of application, changes to information, dates of confirmation, information regarding other ID cards already issued, details of counter-signatures;
Validation Information - information provided by any application, modification, confirmation or issue and other steps taken in connection with an application or entry, details of any requirement to surrender;
Security Information - personal identification numbers, password or other codes, and questions and answers that could be used to identify a person seeking access;
Access Records - the audit trail of accesses to the entry

If such a database was allowed to be created then in future it could be expanded to ever know increasing amounts of personal data about ourselves. If the basis of a database such as this to help aid terrorism, it infringes on all our civil liberties. Future governments could easily ask to extend the database to include more details about ourselves, so that they can build up a detailed profile of each and every citizen.

The question is do you want to see ID cards here in the UK? I firmly don't but I was interested to hear other people's views.

ID cards are very much about giving government security services more control over the individual.

Once such a comprehensive ID system is in place, it is highly unlikely to be phased out again.
A totalitarian government of the future would have us all very much by the short and curlies.

Surely all that information is available to them anyway, just not in a one-stop shop?
Personally, I'm not fussed about having an ID card, as long as it is physically and financially included within my passport, along with my driving licence. There is NO need for any further ID, why should I pay extra for it?
I see no need for another form of tax for a piece of ID that's main purpose will no doubt be the employment of tens of thousands of civil servants in admin jobs. I won't pay for it, you hear :rant:

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Because the state wants to create a complete biometric national database

You only need a passport if you want to travel abroad.

But you will be compelled to have (and ultimately carry) an ID card linked to the national database.

It's the database that worries me.

But like the man says, if we have nothing to hide, what are we worried about?

I am pretty sure the reason that was pushed through is the U.S demanding biometric passports, or people would not be allowed in to the states. Several deadlines have passed and extensions been given (by the U.S) but the initial push for it was after 9/11 and asked for by the U.S.

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techpolicy/2003-08-24-biometrics-travel_x.htm

Biometrics on passports has little or nothing to do with an id card and central database.

Adding biometrics to the passport would be relatively simple and would require no central database.