The discussion of classical music has implicitly raised an interesting question: why are all of the great classical composers men? There are of course many, many fine players of classical music who are women. But female composers?

I can think of three of note - Hildegard of Bingen, Clara Schuman and Elisabeth Maconchy (I like all of these). There are of course others, but none who are generally regarded as being in the top flight. The nineteenth and twentieth centuries produced many fine women novelists, but virtually no women composers of note. Why? is it nature, nurture, lack of opportunity, prejudice? or what?

I suppose we could include Wendy Carlos too, formerly Walter Carlos the electro-acoustic composer. It depends, my dear Chaverly, upon how one defines 'great'. Some would regard Kate Bush as a composer, and a fairly sophisticated one at that. Her music draws upon a vast range of influences; the dynamics of 'progressive' rock, European 'new' music, folk, reggae, Classical, certain Eastern styles etc, which she blends together seamlessly. However, we are talking about 'intelligent', essentially popular music here. I do not think her music stands any chance of being 'remembered' in the way that Elgar's symphonies, and the Savoy operas of Gilbert and Sullivan will be. Over to you...

Hi Timo,

As much as I admire Kate Bush (well, a little anyway) I hardly think her esteemed works fit well into the canons of classical music composition or into the classical repertoire- even if we take into account the dubious new art form known as 'crossover'. I must say, the sound of the Medieval Babes is an acquired taste and I regret to say I have not yet acquired it. I am not familiar with the oevre of Carlos, but if he/she has had a sex change, then he/she wouldn't be a good example to use.

Agreed. We seem to be stumped then...

Is the answer there aren't any due to the role of women within society pre 1850 not allowing them the opportunity to attend the elite musical conservatories?

Or is that obvious.

I suppose the one plus for women is that the spice girls contained 5 women and not a single man.

Get in, Girl Power.

Thatcher was yours as well, so credit where it's due

Cecil Frances Alexander (1818-1895)
She wrote many hymns which were intended for children, and were actually perfectly suitable for adults, but they actually had lots of hidden meanings, which mentioned the toil of women and less liberated people in victorian times.

Originally posted by muddycoffee
Cecil Frances Alexander (1818-1895)
She wrote many hymns which were intended for children, and were actually perfectly suitable for adults, but they actually had lots of hidden meanings, which mentioned the toil of women and less liberated people in victorian times.

Hi Muddy,

She was undoubtedly a talented lyricist (hymn writer and poet), but that would not qualify her as a composer of note. She probably belongs to the category of great women poets of the 19th century.

Regards, LC

Hi kids,

I think you're confusing 'great' with 'well known' or 'well publicised'. Women were seen and not heard in ye olde days, innit.

I'm a great composer. Just this morning I composed a song called 'I can't log on to the Sheffield Forum, I think my world has caved in, was it all just a figment of my imagination', it was beautiful, really haunting and melodic.

Apparently Mrs Schumman, er Schumann wrote all the best pieces by Mr S. Similarly, Gwen John was miles better at painting than Augustus (who was a tit). Winifred, er, Winnifred Nicholson was also miles better at painting than Ben Nicholson (who woz roobish). Then again, Mrs Hank Williams had a voice like fingernails being scratched down a blackboard, whereas Hank was a genius. But, generally, I suppose the point is....oh, bum, I've forgotten.....

Francesca Caccini springs to mind. Not a household name like Beethoven but she did write 5 operas.

I think talented women tend to get overlooked throughout history.

Originally posted by tslogf74
Francesca Caccini springs to mind. Not a household name like Beethoven but she did write 5 operas.

I think talented women tend to get overlooked throughout history.

Well, I've looked and looked (as I'm sure have many feminists, hoping to find some hidden or forgotten musical jewels emanating from the distaff side) and I've come to the conclusion that, if we are talking about works of superior quality rather than of quantity, they are few and far between - although I have not yet had a chance to hear a complete rendition of kathythebean's latest composition, so perhaps its wise for me to reserve my final judgement.

Incidentally, this discussion parallels a similar one sometimes raised in the world of chess. There are women grand masters and some very fine female chess players (e.g. the Polgar sisters) but there has never been a female world chess champion.

But why, if women are eligible to hold the title of World Chess Champion, is there a Woman's World Championship?

I note that Judit Polgar has refused to take part in the women-only competitions.

Kasparov famously or infamously referred to the Polgars as 'trained dogs' and is on record as saying that he doubted that a woman would ever become world champion.

Judit is not I believe in the current FIDE rankings, due to inactivity (she has a young baby), but is reckoned to be currently about the 8th or 9th best player in the world, which makes her the best ever female chess player of all time. She is now in her mid-20s, so there is still time for her to make it.

One of the reasons may well lie in a sociological direction, for example, the point made by Dylan [the forum poster, not the 'musical entertainer'] regarding the subordinate role of women in societies. Lest anyone think that Timo has become some sort of patronising, neutered 'male feminist', ever -eager to acknowledge his role as a 'patriarchal agent' in 'phallocentric' society, I have my own elegant and erudite paradigm too.

Perhaps causality, in this case, is due to a cluster of variables. The aforementioned sociological explanation re the 'gendered' nature of societies [let us not forget that , not so very long ago in historical terms, women undergraduates were unheard of in Britain] is one of the most cogent variables. However, drawing upon the work of the evolutionary psychologist, Richard Lynn, I suggest that the much higher levels of 'creative sociopathology' amongst males is the most important variable here. It also plays a part in why we have 'gendered' societies in the first instance.

Good points Timo.

With regard to chess and gender, males in general are supposed to have more highly developed visio-spatial awareness and also are more likely to exhibit single minded obsessive traits. Ally this to the aggressiveness which also tends to be more common in males and I think we may be getting somewhere (which is not to entirely discount the socio-environmental causal factors mentioned above). Kasparov, in his famous statements on female chess players, attributed the differences in performance levels to differences in psychology.

Lord C,
The variables might well be the following:- 'gendered' nature of society, higher levels of visio-spatial intelligence in males, higher levels of 'creative sociopathology' in males, and testosterone-based higher levels of aggression/urges to primacy in males. Thus the Timo/Chaverly thesis!

Mind you, Lord Snooty [he's not a 'real' Lord, unlike you and I...] makes a good point re the rumours that women secretly wrote work attributed to their husbands, i.e, Clara Schumann. On first hearing these rumours, I was tempted to link them with the sublimely fatuous claims that 'Beethoven was black', uttered by certain radical Afro-American slavery-compensation merchants. However, some evidence is coming to light on this intriguing matter.

According to Earnest Bickerdyke [ descendant of the celebrated Wincobank poet, Albert Bickerdyke, who wrote the moving ode to 'unashamed outdoor love' in Woolley Woods- 'Pull me vest darn when tha's finished, Edie'] of The Shiregreen Advertiser, there are several cases of 'great' works secretly written by female relations of the credited composers. For example, Wagner's Der Fliegende Hollander is rumoured to have been written by his 'Auntie' Brigitte, in between her ironing and door step scrubbing at Bochum. Mozart's String Quartet K464, is almost certainly written by, in Sheffield parlance, his 'Nannan'. Stockhausen's 'Hymnen', a modern 'classical' meisterwerk, is claimed by Mrs Stella Mac Donough of Giro Walk, Bootle.

Spot on Timo. perhaps we could call it 'the Timo/Chaverly theory of gender differences in creative accomplishments'.

As for the 'Beethoven was black' idea, I think we can agree its complete nonesense. He was of German/Flemish origin - note his usage of the 'Van' rather than 'Von'. Apparently he was proud off his part-Flemish ancestry, altohugh he was of course German.

The story probably originated as a result of Beethoven's brief association with George Bridgetower, a half African, half German violinist of note. Beethoven at first dedicated what is now known as the Kreutzer sonata to Bridgetower, but fell out with him before it was printed (so it was dedicated to Kreutzer instead, who apparently didn't actually like it). Bridgetower was also a composer, altohugh I've never heard any of his works, or indeed heard of any of them being performed.

I am glad that you have mentioned Bickerdyke, the Wordsworth of Wincobank in this context. I think that there are good grounds for thinking that many current rugby songs which are attributed to that most prolific of composers, Anon, can actually be traced back to the immortal pen of Bickerdyke. Further research is required to ascertain whether the spring from this particular creative well emanated from the distaff side.

As we all know men are superior to women give them time one might crack it eventually! (Hides before vicous attack from angy women begins)

[
Mind you, Lord Snooty [he's not a 'real' Lord, unlike you and I...] [/B

I'm not a real pain in the arse, either.......

Oh, I don't know...only joshing, Snooty old bean.

'The gender question in regard to musicians makes me annoyed. What relevance does a person's sex have? Doesn't the quality of music making come more from a person's individual character than from the generalities of their sex? Although I complain about this question I also have to admit that I have had benefits from it as well. As the Director of my own orchestra, which performs music by both women and men, I've received a certain amount of extra press coverage because women composers and female Music Directors are still quite rare, and considered newsworthy by the media.



Somebody once told me that women's brains are different and simply don't have in them the capacity to create artistically. Similarly Wilhelm Gericke (the Boston Symphony's Musical Adviser) told Amy Cheney/Beach's mother that her prodigy daughter should not be educated in Europe as women were intellectually less highly evolved than men. How sad that we are seen as strange animals, so "differently" endowed. Could it be that our capacity to produce new human life is so major a threat for men that they have to keep the creation of symphonies (etc) to themselves? ' Diana Ambache

whatever!
:rolleyes:

I 've forgotton who , but someone pointed out that there was a connection between chess , mathematics and music-------in the sense that only in those three areas , do you get child prodigies.
I've been playing chess regularly for 52 years and I have always been surprised at the lack of female players , vis-a-vis males. I've started school chess clubs [ being a teacher ] in the U.K. and in Turkey , Kuwait and Romania --------and the position is exactly as it was 50 years ago ------9 male players for every 1 female player. There doesn't seem to me , any obvious obstacle to prevent girls playing chess , and I'm not qualified to offer an answer.
I can't think of any female "Einsteins " either or , "Russells " or , "Whiteheads " and the world of music has already been mentioned.
The reason , presumably , why they have a , "Women's World Chess Champion[ship] " is to give women who do play chess , some encouragement. In , "open " world competitions they never looked like having a cat in hell's chance of winning the top prize.

p.s.

Just been reading through a few posts again and some people have hinted that because women have been classed as second class citizens until , "fairly recently " , that may account for their lack of progress in music and/or chess.
How long does it take Western Wimmin to , "shake off the bonds " of inferiority ? China is only developing in fits and starts and women have and have had , far fewer chances than Western women ; yet the World Woman Chess Champion is Chinese ------and in a few years their Women's football team will probably knock England out of the World Cup.
Could it be that the lack of women's progress in the West is that they're far more interested in a new dining table and so lack determination , energy and discipline to succeed in intellectual pursuits ?
It's strange , too , that the 19th. century produced good women novelists and so few comparable composers. Perhaps this was because their novels were mostly based on the concrete , whilst music is abstract ?

A lot of hope is currently being invested in Judit Polgar, by far the best female player ever, who is currently ranked at about 8th or 9th in the world. But there is a big difference between being in the top ten and making it to top spot. Meanwhile, younger guys are coming up behind her all the time. I would be surprised (although certainly not disappointed) if she became world champion.

Kasparov's , "judgement " on the Polgar sisters sounds cruel and offensive and I'm sure his remarks were based on the fact that the Polgar sisters had been very strictly trained by their father to play chess , from a very early age. Kasparov was therefore , I think , categorising them as , "automatons " [?] , or 'robots ' , good technically but not possessing that artistic touch that takes a very good player into the realms of genius.
However , Kasparov's reasoning seems a bit illogical to me , as many superb chess players , including Kasparov's hero , Alekhine , had very weird childhoods. It really is difficult to unravel. Perhaps the answer IS simple ; women's brains , hence thought processes , ARE different from men's.

I remember reading a transcript of the interview in which Kasparov made the remark about trained dogs. He was specifically asked his opinion of the calibre of female chess players and of the possibility of there being a female world champion. I don't think his remarks were meant to be either cruel or offensive: he said his skepticism was based on differences in psychology (which could embrace both aptitude and motivation). Polgar is quite an aggressive, bold, player, so the aggressiveness element can't be the whole story and i don't think it is.

I blame dining tables. They're just so gosh darned interesting. If only I'd been able to drag my attention away from shopping today I might have been able to become chess world champion (or at least shake off my bonds of inferiority).

I'm pretty good at chess. I might give this championship malarky a go, once I have finished my first symphony.

Originally posted by timo
Lord C,
The variables might well be the following:- 'gendered' nature of society, higher levels of visio-spatial intelligence in males, higher levels of 'creative sociopathology' in males, and testosterone-based higher levels of aggression/urges to primacy in males. Thus the Timo/Chaverly thesis!

Mind you, Lord Snooty [he's not a 'real' Lord, unlike you and I...] makes a good point re the rumours that women secretly wrote work attributed to their husbands, i.e, Clara Schumann. On first hearing these rumours, I was tempted to link them with the sublimely fatuous claims that 'Beethoven was black', uttered by certain radical Afro-American slavery-compensation merchants. However, some evidence is coming to light on this intriguing matter.

According to Earnest Bickerdyke [ descendant of the celebrated Wincobank poet, Albert Bickerdyke, who wrote the moving ode to 'unashamed outdoor love' in Woolley Woods- 'Pull me vest darn when tha's finished, Edie'] of The Shiregreen Advertiser, there are several cases of 'great' works secretly written by female relations of the credited composers. For example, Wagner's Der Fliegende Hollander is rumoured to have been written by his 'Auntie' Brigitte, in between her ironing and door step scrubbing at Bochum. Mozart's String Quartet K464, is almost certainly written by, in Sheffield parlance, his 'Nannan'. Stockhausen's 'Hymnen', a modern 'classical' meisterwerk, is claimed by Mrs Stella Mac Donough of Giro Walk, Bootle.

Timo, you sound very clever, are you a student ? what do you study ?

kathy, I think you've stumbled on mankind's secret weapon against female chess players - the dining table. Its a well known fact that when Kasparov played Polgar, he insisted that the match be played on a dining table, assuming that she would be so distracted by the table that she would not be able to concentrate on the match. He also insisted that the match be played near a shopping mall, knowing that she would be likely to rush her moves in order to get some shopping in before the mall closed.

Originally posted by LordChaverly
kathy, I think you've stumbled on mankind's secret weapon against female chess players - the dining table. Its a well known fact that when Kasparov played Polgar, he insisted that the match be played on a dining table, assuming that she would be so distracted by the table that she would not be able to concentrate on the match. He also insisted that the match be played near a shopping mall, knowing that she would be likely to rush her moves in order to get some shopping in before the mall closed.

DAMN those feminine urges :)

When I play Kasparov I shall insist that the match be played on the bosom of a naked lady. That'll show him.

Originally posted by kathythebean
DAMN those feminine urges :)

When I play Kasparov I shall insist that the match be played on the bosom of a naked lady. That'll show him.

I am sure he will find the experience a lot more pleasurable than his next opponent, a super computer

Originally posted by poppins
Timo, you sound very clever, are you a student ? what do you study ?

Indeed he is - in my opinion, the brightest, most eloquent and amusing, poster on the forum.

I believe he does indeed labour in the groves of academe, but as a lecturer, not a student. Long may he continue to amuse and educate us (usually at the same time).

Originally posted by LordChaverly
I am sure he will find the experience a lot more pleasurable than his next opponent, a super computer

Ah yes but for all its power can the super computer wash up, while cooking the tea and moan at the same time? I very much doubt not! :)

Originally posted by kathythebean
I'm pretty good at chess. I might give this championship malarky a go, once I have finished my first symphony.

Fancy a game some time? I suggest we play on a board so as to eliminate any gender-based advantage.

Originally posted by tslogf74
Fancy a game some time? I suggest we play on a board so as to eliminate any gender-based advantage.

Sure! Although my housemates will all attest to the fact: it is difficult being beaten by a girl :)

Originally posted by kathythebean
Sure! Although my housemates will all attest to the fact: it is difficult being beaten by a girl :) well it very much depends what you are beaten with - kinky

I suppose. Mostly trout, in our house, the occasional wet sock.

Originally posted by kathythebean
I suppose. Mostly trout, in our house, the occasional wet sock.

I'm sure you can pay good money for that round Attercliffe.

Anyway, this thread's got me thinking and I haven't played a game of chess in years. Is there a forum games club, at all?

Damn, now I've missed Dr Who again! Curses.

Originally posted by tslogf74
Anyway, this thread's got me thinking and I haven't played a game of chess in years. Is there a forum games club, at all?


Yes tslogf74 - pay attention ... TRIPPET'S ....

ruby (SF Dominoes Champion :D)