So, the Community Cops are now concentrating on the Sandstone estate in Brightside (though Radio Sheffield calls it Wincobank) dispersing groups of kids and youths who might or might not be bent on bother. It'll work - at least in the short-term. I know this, because I observed it working on Parson Cross's Margetson estate during the last two weeks of 2004's school summer holidays.

If the media is to be believed, it seems that every estate, private or council, (Sandstone is private) has discipline trouble with kids and youths nowadays. So, my question is: is there a single neighbourhood in Sheffield that is free of intimidating behaviour by chavs, binge-drinkers, drug dealers/takers, street robbers, loud music, screeching jalopies, and the like?

And if not, what would be your short-term solution to turning the estates from gangland L.A. back into Trumpton.

Originally posted by spartacus
So, my question is: is there a single neighbourhood in Sheffield that is free of intimidating behaviour by chavs, binge-drinkers, drug dealers/takers, street robbers, loud music,

I've never had trouble where I live, though I'm not sure whether you'd class Ecclesall as a private "estate" or not. There's still the odd boy racer cruising past with "thud thud" music on though. There are also chav gatherings outside of High Storrs at the bus stops as the little angels wait for their buses to take them home.

Originally posted by t020
I've never had trouble where I live, though I'm not sure whether you'd class Ecclesall as a private "estate" or not. There's still the odd boy racer cruising past with "thud thud" music on though. There are also chav gatherings outside of High Storrs at the bus stops as the little angels wait for their buses to take them home.

:shocked:

Chavs in Ecclesall?! Who'd have thunk it?! :lol:

Originally posted by Rich
:shocked:

Chavs in Ecclesall?! Who'd have thunk it?! :lol:


Yes they take day trips to High Storrs, drag down the average grades and then get the bus back from whence they came. :D

PS. I wondered how long you'd take to make a "quip" Rich - at 7 mins you surpassed yourself. You really do go for "quality" posts over the quantity, don't you? :rolleyes:

:mad: The Shiregreen i have to say. I've just had to chase a gang of Firth Park School kids of my next door neighbours back garden while he was at work, they said they were looking for a white cat.:suspect:

Originally posted by t020
Yes they take day trips to High Storrs, drag down the average grades and then get the bus back from whence they came. :D

PS. I wondered how long you'd take to make a "quip" Rich - at 7 mins you surpassed yourself. You really do go for "quality" posts over the quantity, don't you? :rolleyes:

At least I don't boast about having a large post count, like some S11 natives I could mention do... :rolleyes:

And, contrary to popular belief, I actually have a life beyond the Sheffield Forum... So I don't spend 24 hours a day. 7 days a week here.

Yeh.

Originally posted by Rich
And, contrary to popular belief, I actually have a life beyond the Sheffield Forum... So I don't spend 24 hours a day. 7 days a week here.

Yeh.

Yes, we all know you don't spend quite all your time on here moaning about chavs and moaning about which part of George Bush's anatomy Blair is up. You spend the other half of your time oogling at a couple of near-naked men romping together lol :D

Originally posted by Patchy
Yes, we all know you don't spend quite all your time on here moaning about chavs and moaning about which part of George Bush's anatomy Blair is up. You spend the other half of your time oogling at a couple of near-naked men romping together lol :D

HAHAHAHA :clap: :hihi:

Rich - I've never "boasted" about having a large post count, I couldn't care less, but at least my posts go beyond the scope of Ecclesall jibes, chavs and hating Americans. You've made about 3,300 posts and I'd say 90% fitted into those 3 categories.

PS. When does this life beyond SF take place? Every time I come on here your name is on the "Who's Online" list.

Originally posted by t020
HAHAHAHA :clap: :hihi:

Rich - I've never "boasted" about having a large post count, I couldn't care less, but at least my posts go beyond the scope of Ecclesall jibes, chavs and hating Americans. You've made about 3,300 posts and I'd say 90% fitted into those 3 categories.

PS. When does this life beyond SF take place? Every time I come on here your name is on the "Who's Online" list.

Are you saying that you didn't have the following in your sig until recently then?

Celebrating over 4000 posts on Sheffield Forum

Dunno about your definition of boasting but that sure looks like it to me :D

Originally posted by Rich
Are you saying that you didn't have the following in your sig until recently then?



Dunno about your definition of boasting but that sure looks like it to me :D


No that's not a boast, that's a statement of fact (or at least it was once I reached 4,000 posts). I'm sorry my post count bothers you so much, but perhaps you should look a little closer to home before accusing others of going for "quantity over quality".

Mod. Note

Hi guys,

Please take the personal abuse to PM land.

Thanks,

Joe

Originally posted by t020
No that's not a boast, that's a statement of fact (or at least it was once I reached 4,000 posts). I'm sorry my post count bothers you so much, but perhaps you should look a little closer to home before accusing others of going for "quantity over quality".

Think what you want, I'm past caring what YOU think of me tbh...

As for your claim that 90% of my posts are about chavs and/or Blair, I suggest you read my posts my clearly in future..

I in fact spend a lot of time trying to be helpful to people, yeh I may have made the odd reference to chavs, and posted about my disdain for T Blair's government, but this is a public discussion forum, I am perfectly entitled to discuss these matters if I choose to do so... So yeh.

And as I have repeatedly told you, post counts mean sod all to me, so yeh.

Originally posted by Rich
Think what you want, I'm past caring what YOU think of me tbh...

As for your claim that 90% of my posts are about chavs and/or Blair, I suggest you read my posts my clearly in future..

I in fact spend a lot of time trying to be helpful to people, yeh I may have made the odd reference to chavs, and posted about my disdain for T Blair's government, but this is a public discission forum, I am perfectly entitled to discuss these matters if I choose to do so... So yeh.

And as I have repeatedly told you, post counts mean sod all to me, so yeh.

So yeh, but if post counts mean so little to you why do you make so many pointless posts about EcclesHall, chavs and Americans, which are like reading the same thing over and over? So yeh, so yeh. Anyway Joe has already warned us so if you have anything else to add take it to PM land as he suggests, so yeh.

Originally posted by t020
So yeh, but if post counts mean so little to you why do you make so many pointless posts about EcclesHall, chavs and Americans, which are like reading the same thing over and over? So yeh, so yeh. Anyway Joe has already warned us so if you have anything else to add take it to PM land as he suggests, so yeh.

Going back to the OP's original topic, I'm surprised you haven't mentioned the Manor as the most "troubled and Yob infested estate", after all every other post of yours in the accommodation board is pulling the Manor to bits...

And whilst I agree in principle that the area has always had a not so good reputation, I personally don't think it's QUITE as bad as folk such as yourself make it out as.

And that wasn't a dig, just a general observation based on my own experience of the Manor.

Originally posted by Rich
Going back to the OP's original topic, I'm surprised you haven't mentioned the Manor as the most "troubled and Yob infested estate", after all every other post of yours in the accommodation board is pulling the Manor to bits...

And whilst I agree in principle that the area has always had a not so good reputation, I personally don't think it's QUITE as bad as folk such as yourself make it out as.

And that wasn't a dig, just a general observation based on my own experience of the Manor.

Not "every other" post of mine in the accommodation board is pulling the Manor to bits. I didn't answer the specific thread question because I simply don't know, other than referring to the crime figures. That's why I answered the "is anywhere trouble free" question instead.

it does not matter where you live there will always be a yob somewhere, i admit some places are worse than others but yobs are here to stay.:rant:

"Yobs are merely the product of 3 decades of liberal social policies and attitudes and the damage is now irreversible".

Discuss.

Originally posted by t020
"Yobs are merely the product of 3 decades of liberal social policies and attitudes and the damage is now irreversible".

Discuss.

Man, you're funny :hihi:

He's a veritable laugh a minute!

Where does the Greenhill estate figure in all this. I lived in Greenhill some years ago when it was upscale, and have been told the estate is somewhat crime ridden.

In Tinsley we have only a few trouble makers who are making positive progress to becoming responsible citizens.
On a recent ITV news article a professor highlighted that this has come about because of longer working hours, both parents working to pay the mortgage and children becoming accepted in peer groups by performing anti social acts.

As Tinsley has a very low crime rate does this mean that the township has the best parenting skills and child relationships in Sheffield. Does more for their children than any other town. Help them develop to become highly professional and then leave Sheffield because they know they can compete nationally against any other employee.

Places like the manor exist in a bad light because of low parenting standards, I bet they blame their girls pregnancies on the schools too.

I think any group of more than 4 kids should have a responsible adult to take responsibilty, like child care assistants. Thats only one parent out of eight at any one time, it wouldnt be easy but Im sure it could be managable.

I also think employers and industry as a whole have induced us into a slavery system where we ALL have to work longer hours. Im not saying mothers should be at home all the time but they have created this problem for themselves. Banks have got us all by the b&!ls and making us pay extortionate amounts for our housing and are now wanting a part of the house too. where will this stop.

LOBBY YOUR BANK, LOBBY YOUR EMPLOYER AND SPEND MORE TIME WITH YOUR KIDS !

Cheese & pickle sandwiche anyone ?

Yeah, Greenhill's not v nice at the moment, mainly cos the police are patrolling Lowedges more so all the little gits have crossed the road into Greenhill. They are often found throwing things at old ladies near the library. However, I think troubles mainly concentrated around that area. Jordanthorpes also not a very nice place to be at the moment, lots of lads drinking special brew and intimidating people.

What about the leafy half of Greenhill next to Beauchief? Is that badly effected by yobs too? Shame if it is because it looks ok.

I'm surprised and somewhat shocked to hear about the rise in anti-social behaviour in Greenhill. Ten years ago, when I was taxi-driving, Greenhill and the neighbouring Bradway estates were picturesque, up market, quiet and safe.

However, I'm not sure that crime figures are an indicator whether an estate is a nightmare to live on day by day, moment by moment. After all, good crime-prevention measures can drastically reduce your chances of your home falling victim to high or medium level crime: robbery, burglary, etc. This is because a lot of low-level crime, and almost all nuisance (the prime cause of misery for tenants today), goes unreported anyway, never making the statistics. Hadron has made some good observations: the parenting skills of some might well be lacking. Topical, too. Only today we have the mother of three pregnant schoolgirls! blaming the education authority for her daughters' poor standards of sex education.

It's important to remember, though, that anti-social behaviour doesn't only happen on council estates. As any sociologist will tell you, middle-class family life in white Britain (I cannot speak for other societies, having little understanding of their cultures) is different from what it was in the fifties, sixties, even seventies. Today we live in a consumer driven economy. Like it or not, most of us want better cars, TVs, homes, etc - and why not? So, unless one parent is on supertax, both mum and dad will have to work, and that work will probably mean more commitment to the job and longer hours away from the children.

In conclusion, it seems there are no Shangri-Las, and that at one time or another all estates, private or council, take their turn as the anti-social hotspot. As for solutions, we would do better to discard demands for the return of hanging and birching. Society will not allow a return to these forms of punishments, deserved or not. Better, I think, to concentrate on encouraging the kids of today and tomorrow to develop the skills, academic or practical, that they all have, no matter how hidden they might seem. That way they can feel valued rather than rejected by society. It'll not happen though. As I said, we live in a consumer driven society. Driven, that is, by our intrinsic greed, not altruism.

And its not always local kids causing the trouble. Like many areas I'm guessing we seem to be on a 'circuit.' Kids cause trouble up at Norton until it goes so far that policing is stepped up and the kids migrate to Woodseats, before arriving outside my house en masse (we live near a shop and kids are like moths to a flame with corner shops, lol.)
A year or so ago we went through a patch where there were up to 20 kids every night stood around outside. Then there were more police patrols and even police stationed outside the shop for a couple of weeks. The kids vanished, no doubt moved on to cause annoyance in a new venue! In a few months they'll work their way down here again.

That said, they never caused us any real bother although they did hurl insults at a few random people using the shop and scared a few older folk. The local kids we see day in day out are ok kids and we exchange a few pleasantries with them.

Pizza Hut STILL won't deliver to us though!

spartacus, in reply, I would like to say that I believe the route of the problems with the young one's of today is with discipline in schools and in some cases (but by no means all as many parents install good values in to their children but they still turn out bad) the parents.

To me the whole pc thing is totaly wrong. The problem in classrooms today is that the power has been taken away from the teacher. Where as in the old days when the teacher was king and could do such things as throw a board rubber at you or send you to the headmaster for a caining nowadays they are petrified of even breaking children up from a fight in case they get sued by the parents.

As we all know this comes from the "where there's blame there's a claim" merchants from america.

What we need to do is give the power back to the teacher (by legislating accordingly) so that they can feel free to teach and discipline pupils as they see fit without fear of being disciplined themselves either by parents or lawyers.

In addition to this I would like to say that I believe that no child that goes to school and behaves properly should have any problems with teachers or anyone else. The same applies to adults at their place of work. Rant over.

To the liberal PC brigade - was anti-social behaviour worse when corporal punishment was in place than it is today?

What would the attitude of these yobs be if the mature members of society started hanging around in the same places they do, maybe they would feel intimidated and go home.

We have the society we have by default in parental care and the idiotic do gooders of the 60s& 70s.

Child psycologists who have never had children,marriage guidence councillors who have never married.social workers who can't handle the job because in most cases they have no experience of life and of course the judicial system which believes that a hypothetical slap has a better effect than a good old fashioned clout around the ear.

Originally posted by t020
To the liberal PC brigade - was anti-social behaviour worse when corporal punishment was in place than it is today?
In some respects yes - I'm glad to see that the gang warfare days of the mods and rockers and football hooligans have abated from their peak 20, 30, 40 years ago. I am also glad that changes in legislation mean there are less opportunities for child abusers to get their kicks while employed as teachers.
In answer to the original question, I am very pleased to have never come across instances of anti-social behaviour. Despite the impressions often given on this board, it is not rife everywhere in Sheffield.

Beauchief and the part of Greenhill thats close to it are generally ok. A couple of years ago though the police started patrolling Woodseats in the summer and all the kids simply moved down the road to Beauchief. These kids really need somewhere to go so their not on the streets, even if they went in a park they'd be less intimidating. Last weekend I was on Woodseats waitng for a bus on friday night and they were a huge group of about 30 kids hanging around by the new flats shouting abuse and throwing stones across the road at me and other people waiting at the bus stop! A police car was parked about 20 metres away by the entrance to Graves Park, but didn't do anything for ages, then slowly drove towards the kids. The kids obviously weren't too bothered by this, and waited til the car was next to them then slowly headed up the hill towards Meadowhead! I think in Troubled areas there should be a curfew like there was in Meersbrook last summer.

But if kids are hanging around on the streets I don't think it's always their parents faults- many kids tell their parents that theyre going to a mates house when really theyre out wandering the streets. And I can appreciate that many people don't want all their childrens friends in their house all the time.

The trouble with these new "dispersal" orders - or whatever they are called - is that the yobs simply move on somewhere else. I know, because the kids that have been moved on from Sandstone estate, are now hanging around the Standon estate (ie less than a mile away). There's about 20-30 of them, hanging around, occasionally fighting, and generally looking quite intimidating.:mad:

I wish I could be as full of knowledge as a few of the posters on this thread. Thankyou for showing us the few reasons why a bunch of kids want to cause intimidation and aggro.

Some interesting suggestions have been aired. Also we have a member from a street in Woodseats that has yet to experience localized anti-social behaviour (A-SB). Let's hope their windows remain unbroken.

Interestingly, if, while going about your daily life, you observe and bother to list as social types those who look as if they're about to participate in A-SB (and we are discussing street-corner nuisance here as distinguishable from football hooliganism and town centre binge-drinking), specific patterns might arise. My observations suggest that most are male; that most look as if they fall within the age window of 10 - 19; that most wear baseball caps, trainers and dark track suits; that they group on corners or around shops or passages; that the most dangerous looking seem to be on neighbourhoods rumoured to be deprived. Of course, the danger here is of stereotyping. After all, those same features also describe a lot of young people who aren't A-S; and not everyone living on a deprived area is deprived; and everyone who looks dangerous isn't necessarily so. However, clearly I, and possibly society on the whole, have instilled perceptions as to who we should be wary of. My perceptions developed in my teenage years. Nature's way, I suppose, of protecting me while I was growing up. and participating, incidentally, in my own phase of A-SB. A recent brief history of A-SB perceptions might include teddy boys, mods and rockers, skinheads, punks; today I believe it's chavs.

So, what can be done? Well, I suggest that those who structure social policy should list as many causes of A-SB as possible: unsuitable job prospects for boys; poor school attendance; incapable parenting; policies of indulgence and appeasement that allow control to be usurped in the home, the classroom, on the streets, and even inside the police station; etc. They will find that the list of possible causes could be endless, pointing to a complex problem with no single solution. Worse, because each person is unique, what solution they come up with for one might not work for another. What is for sure is that there must be some solution to prevent the rise in numbers of the socially excluded (because that is what is happening here) or we will end up with gated communities and Soweto-like no-go townships within or outside our cities and towns. Will this practical help come about? I think not. It seems that politicians find it easier to ignore problems rather than face the difficulties in tackling them. They prefer to stick out their office blaming previous administrations for societies ills rather than risk criticisms from oppostion parties, liberty groups, and press. Anyhow, that's enough of the rhetoric. To end my participation in this thread, I'll throw my own little suggestion in. By the way, the infrastructure to put this suggestion in place already exists in the form of sponsorships, creches, training workshops, colleges, etc.

I think that for all able people, young or mature, lying in bed until midday should not be an option. For anyone on benefits - single-parents and walking wounded included - education linked to a profession, or full-time on-the-job training for a trade should be mandatory. In return for benefits, those who receive them should earn them.

everwhere you go now is a bad place live with it and stop complaining


if you want to do anything about it join my force
we will dress in black and where baraclovers and a baseball bat and go around and beat up the trouble causes

Originally posted by spartacus
Also we have a member from a street in Woodseats that has yet to experience localized anti-social behaviour (A-SB). Let's hope their windows remain unbroken.
I am not suggesting that A-SB does not occur, but in order to help reduce the FEAR of crime that appears to be paralysing parts of our community, was seeking to demonstrate that it doesn't impact DIRECTLY on the lives of all Sheffielders. Given my experience of 5 years in Woodseats (plus my 3 years working on the Manor, and my partners 25 years at Burngreave) I have every faith that my windows remain unsmashed.
Now, if I were to hang around outside the Big Tree at chucking out time, blabbing loudly on my mobile then things may well be different - I simply choose not to do that!

Hi, Voise. Good point. You are quite right. And to suggest that every resident lives in fear of localized A-SB is, of course, stereotyping. However, many do, and in my experience, moreso, though not exclusively, on council estates.

You have a wealth of meeting with peoples from across Sheffield. What is your single solution to this problem?

the fair is in Firth Park next week (school holidays) expect violence, muggings and crime to go through the roof - perhaps even the odd 'revenge' incident too..

Originally posted by Internetowl
the fair is in Firth Park next week (school holidays) expect violence, muggings and crime to go through the roof - perhaps even the odd 'revenge' incident too.. :D I saw it today and thought the same thing, least it will be peaceful round my way now the fair is back :clap:

Is alcohol involved in some of this trouble? I must admit that I could slip into a pub at 16 way back cos I looked older.
What I am about to say is likely going to cause ructions. In the US, faced with teenage driver deaths by the ton, the drinking age was raised to 21 in all states, and has had some measure of success, though not all. I know how unpopular such a thing would be in the UK because we have had frequent family visitors from Ireland, and the teenagers couldn't believe they would be banned till they tried to get a drink,and found the barmaid phoning the cops.

Dinno used to be a hotspot...

But then I moved :heyhey:

Well, after enduring several years on the lower stretch of Ecclesall Road, give me S2 any day. I used t get up in a morning wondering what havocs the night people would have wreaked. Would it be smashed wing mirrors? Chips artfully smeared on each and every windscreen? Human faeces in the garden? The contents of the litter bins thoughtfully brought round to the back streets and laid out for all to see? And it wasn't all students doing this kind of thing.

I read the thread about the magpies being shot the other day and it didn't surprise me at all. I used to regularly hear someone shooting at things round there.

It was a shame as it's a nice, leafy area, really handy for town, but it slowly became a yobbos' playground. One evening I was away and a housemate rang me up to say there was a riot going on involving football hooligans right outside. I decided to get the hell outta Dodge as soon as I could. :(

Still, the trouble around there wasn't due to under 18s. You get yobs of any age.

parson bloody cross , just called fire chaps out some little git set a car alight 20ft from bungerlow next door sods!:rant:

Originally posted by spartacus
You have a wealth of meeting with peoples from across Sheffield. What is your single solution to this problem?
As you mentioned in your earlier post Spartacus, don't think there is a single cause or a single solution to the problem. I believe the underlying causes (localised deprivation, lack of opportunities etc) are long-term and political and require long term and political responses. The Trust I am involved with, provides alternative education opportunities for violent and vulnerable kids excluded from mainstream school and I have seen lives turned around. But unfortunately these type of opportunities aren't yet available for everyone.
I don't believe castigating and demonising whole swathes of our communities will help - building up of respect needs to be done on both sides.
On the other hand, we could send them all on outward bound holidays?

Maybe an ASBO to cover the entire population between the years 8 and 25 every night from 6pm to 6am..

Would be much quieter...

Originally posted by amber181
The trouble with these new "dispersal" orders - or whatever they are called - is that the yobs simply move on somewhere else. I know, because the kids that have been moved on from Sandstone estate, are now hanging around the Standon estate (ie less than a mile away). There's about 20-30 of them, hanging around, occasionally fighting, and generally looking quite intimidating.:mad:

Yes these are the ones that attack the busses on a regular basis,,,,,police action,,,,,,,,none.

Thugs 1
Police 0

Yes, Voise, I agree with your ideas. There is no single cause. In fact, very few consequences, in whatever field of social science can be attributed to a single cause.

Your method social repair has been tried and tested and found to work for your clients. You therefore speak with authority and are to be admired for actually doing something positive.

Let's hope that politicians and, more importantly, employers take the hint and copy your example.

If as a member of the public the yobs here cause you any unprovoked trouble, stand there and intervene. If they tell you to go away, tell them you are not going away and make citizen's arrests on them if they swear at you.

Is there a reason you are bringing 6 year old threads back?

If as a member of the public the yobs here cause you any unprovoked trouble, stand there and intervene. If they tell you to go away, tell them you are not going away and make citizen's arrests on them if they swear at you.

It's that simple is it?

I haven't got a clue, we appear to be fairly yob free, but have had 2 cars stolen, 1 attempted burglary, our drive gates stolen and attacked by 5 yobs on a Saturday evening on Baslow Road, However these things are mainly caused by 'visitors', nowt I can do about it, we used to have something called a police force.

What I don't get is sink council house scum bags, robbing and attacking folk on their own estates, if there are any fit and decent folk on these estates, why don't they sort out their own kids? :confused:

"Yobs are merely the product of 3 decades of liberal social policies and attitudes and the damage is now irreversible".

Discuss.

I would say it goes back further than that-what about Zoot suits and teddy boys?

Totley, Dore and Whirlow without a doubt, theres more wideboys out there than there is in only fools and horses lolol...