Well today D was trying to get to another dog, he was being pavement walked so no muzzel. He saw a dog and as usual the lovely, calm, responsive dog turned into the snarling unresponsive dog that he becomes. My boyf was getting him under control when he bit him on his arm. He bit him that hard that it broke / brusied the skin and caused a massive lump, this was through a thick jumper and padded feather jacket, he let go as soon as he realised it was an arm. What if this was kid that got in the way when he has this rage when a dog comes onto the scene?

I am at my wits end now. We had hoped to join a training class in the next couple of weeks (on lead and muzzel) as we had been making improvements. I always said that I would have a dog PTS if they ever bit a person. He's such a lovely dog when dogs are not around and people comment on how well behaved he is, but this behavour is not acceptable and I don't know what the next step is. We have done so much work on it and paid a fortune for advice on what to do. The only thing I can see now is we try one more behavourist and then call it a day. He is from the RSPCA so will have to inform them if this happens. I never thought I'd end up in this position we do everything we have been told to do and I'm just so upset as very attached to him even though we only have had him 6 months.

I can imagine at the moment you are both feeling emotionally strung out by the whole situation

You've tried really hard with your dog, and only you can make the decisions as to what happens next

If you still wish to persist with him, I'd strongly recommend getting in touch with John Rodgerson - google his website. Not may people are prepared to tackle aggressive dogs, and not many are qualified to, but if anybody can help, John can

Have you any idea why your dog is still making decisions in your relationship? I'd have hoped that by now your dog would be looking to you guys for decisions to be made for him as to whether a situation requires barking at or not. Has anybody offered you any guidance on your whole relationship with your dog or has previous advice centred specifically on behaviours in specific circumstances?

Don't wish to be picky but it's John Rogerson

L :)

thanks Lindsey

Too many germs tonight to be patient enough to search :rolleyes:

No problem - I can recommend him, a friend of mine used him with a VERY aggressive dog. All fixed now :)

He really seems to know what makes dogs tick, rather than the rash of people who seem to want to make dogs think like their book says they should

Nice to get first hand info though. I don't think people take as much notice if advice is given from somebody who's detached from a situation :thumbsup:

I worry Badger may do that , as he doesn't like people but is getting better. I totally wish you good luck with him and know you will be doing your best to change his behavour

my sis was once bit my a dog that was all calm etc and we even knew the owner and the dog for a good few years....he was just being walked so had no muzzel etc. She ended up being in hospital and had to have an operation....and that was about 4-5 years ago, or may have been longer.

He had never done anything like this before, but he ended up being put down by the owner.

I can understand your frustration at this.....but in my opinion if the dog was capable of biting through someones jumper/coat then imagine what they could do to a small child...like my sister when she was attacked? I cant bear the thought of seeing her in that much pain, and having to ask the next door neighbour (who also owned a similar dog) if they could help til the ambulance arrived)

If your dog needed a muzzle in the first place, surely it should have been kept with a muzzle in a public place???

Im just curious at to what kind of dog it is that you have, if its a similar behavior at to what this dog was?

I can't honestly advise you on what to do because I'm lucky that I've never had to make such a hard decision with any of my animals.

I strongly suspect that whatever you decide you're likely to feel guilty that you couldn't have made a better decision though, so at a certain point it does come down to how you move forwards living with the decision that you have made.

In decision making terms having a manageable plan can make things easier to deal with. By this I mean making quantifiable plans- how long will you let things go on before deciding whether things are improving? At this point what are your possible options and what specific criteria will make you choose for or against any of your options?

When trying to cope with things it's really easy to let things run on from month to month, year to year, without actually making any decisions, but in emotional terms this has been shown to be detrimental to your emotional health in the long term. Having a coping strategy written up can make things easier to cope with even if the situation takes just as long to play out and conclude in the end, because you've looked honestly at the options and decided your own measuring criteria ahead of needing to take them (and in the light of day, rather than when the decisions are overwhelming you).

In your position I'm not sure that I'd be confident to have a dog that had bitten in my family home either, but the only people who can take the decision for your dog and your family are you and your family.

Sending you lots of strength.

what difference does it make if he is pavement walked in regards to having a muzzle?
you say what if it was a kid? well you answer should be muzzle at ALL times.

my sisters dog was very very aggressive to other dogs and always tried to get at them. she has a muzzle on him at all times regardless of where he is walked. she currently has him at a behaviour school and 6 weeks later he is much better. he still has a long way to go but she is giving him the best chance.
try not to give up on him he may be fixable but you need to cover yourself incase it does happen again and muzzle him.

Right i have just asked my mum, and the dog were on about was a labrador crossed with a bull mastiff

but in her case (as any mother would) please muzzle your dog if you walk him, whether in an public place or in the woods etc.....it could really help, even if you think your dog wouldnt do anything, just like they thought about their dog.

I really hope you can get through this, but from a personal point of view i would really consider getting a muzzle for your dog for any time that it is out, even in the garden in case it gets loose...

my sister was lucky (if you can say that) but others may not be.....

What an awful situation. However, if it is of any consolation, I have heard of many dogs that, when they get to 'the zone' ie. fighting/wound up by another dog - if their owners do try and check them - they have bitten the owners. Just a couple of examples, - I was walking my Greatd Dane and came across a guy with a GSD - he did the usual - 'Oh, he's friendly' - result - the GSD going for my Great Dane - her putting it flat on its back (and nearly me to) - then when the guy grabbed his GSD it grabbed hold of his arm - needless to say we made a quick exit. Second example is one of my dogs (Border collie x labrador) who I had when I lived a home - when I say my dog - he was 'shared' and my dad did most of the training (he was sh*t hot and there was no dog he couldn't train) - he got into a scrap one day and my dad grabbed hold of his collar and he turned and grabbed hold of my dad's arm - totally out of character - he was a real softy - with kids, other animals and humans - and like in your case, when he realised it was a human arm he seemed shocked and let go very quickly. So whilst I am not claiming to be a dog behaviourist - I just wanted to share this with you in the hopes that it may give you a 'light' at the end of the tunnel - just because your dog gets wound up with other dogs it does not mean that next it will be a small child. Better to be safe than sorry - good advice about the muzzle. Good luck :thumbsup:

I can imagine at the moment you are both feeling emotionally strung out by the whole situation

You've tried really hard with your dog, and only you can make the decisions as to what happens next

If you still wish to persist with him, I'd strongly recommend getting in touch with John Rodgerson - google his website. Not may people are prepared to tackle aggressive dogs, and not many are qualified to, but if anybody can help, John can

Have you any idea why your dog is still making decisions in your relationship? I'd have hoped that by now your dog would be looking to you guys for decisions to be made for him as to whether a situation requires barking at or not. Has anybody offered you any guidance on your whole relationship with your dog or has previous advice centred specifically on behaviours in specific circumstances?

We have done the whole behavour around everything, to the extend that he only does things when allowed to (doorways/greeting/walking to heel/visitors/food... the list goes on) he is not protective over his bed or food any way. It's the dog thing that gets him worked up... it's as though he is so focused on the other dog he has no control over what he is doing himself... a Jekyll and Hyde type. It's bizzare as I've never met a dog like him that can be controlled by an owner then totally change. I've been brought up around dogs all my life and have never seen this.

I'm not sure if it's his breed (no one is sure what he is but there is possibly some mastiff or bull breed in there..the vet can't decide either), maybe he was trained to attack other dogs in his past?. Someone at some point had spent a lot of time training him as he could remember the basics after 4 months in rescue kennels. I will give the man a call and see what he suggests. We never put his muzzel on when around people as he has never shown any aggression to people even when other dogs have been around and tbh I don't want a dog that can't be walked without a muzzel around people. I don't believe any dog should be totally trusted but they should be responsive with good ownership.

I honestly don't believe your partner has been bitten intentionally, and the advice wrt to dog fights (which is the state your own dog deemed himself to be in at the time) is not to stick your hands in as you'll come off worst

The fact that he has immediately retreated from the bite rather than persist is already a good omen

Be prepared for your call to John. He's a no nonsense kind of guy, so you could find that his recommendation is your plan B anyway, but if anybody can help your dog, I'd say he's your man :thumbsup:

OK, here's a scenario. Someone is walking a small, well behaved but yappy dog - JRT or some such. The OP's dog gets wound up, and the other owner tries to separate them and gets bitten. It doesn't matter how well trained he is *most* of the time, if on that one occasion an innocent passer by is badly bitten by the OP's dog, it's unacceptable. On this occasion, it was the owner who was hurt, but another time it could be someone else. If the only way to prevent that is to muzzle the dog all the time, so be it. Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to have it PTS if it has a track record.

Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to have it PTS if it has a track record.

Thats very harse, im sure you would hesitate, anyone who loves something would hesitate. If he is only biting and aggressive when on walks then muzzle him and that will temp fix it until the behavious classes/trainers start to pay off.

Thats very harse, im sure you would hesitate, anyone who loves something would hesitate. If he is only biting and aggressive when on walks then muzzle him and that will temp fix it until the behavious classes/trainers start to pay off.

No, you don't know me better than I know myself. Harsh, maybe, but as someone who was bitten as a child by a dog that had previously bitten its owner, I was the victim of someone's loving "hesitation". I have always had dogs of my own, so I know well what it is to care for a dog. Once a dog has shown evidence that it can be dangerous, it should be muzzled at all times or put down.

Thats very harse, im sure you would hesitate, anyone who loves something would hesitate. If he is only biting and aggressive when on walks then muzzle him and that will temp fix it until the behavious classes/trainers start to pay off.

It may sound harsh, but i know where ladyacademic is comming from, worse case scenario is that a child tries to intervene to 'save' her/his dog and gets harmed, i personally wouldnt be able to forgive myself if a dog i had chosen to keep knowing the aggression ... scars a child for life.
Its an awful situation to be in, and although having a dog PTS is the worse decision to make, sometimes has to be made for the welfare of others when every other alternative has been tried.

The OP sounds like a well balanced experienced dog owner, and although i dont relish her situation, I empathise entirely. only she truely knows how 'trustworthy' the dog is, and only she can make the decision. I think by 'asking' the forum is her way of trying to validate having the dog PTS. A more irrisponsable owner would simply pass the dog on to another home and leave the problem with the new owners.

I hope you get it sorted soon X

OK, here's a scenario. Someone is walking a small, well behaved but yappy dog - JRT or some such. The OP's dog gets wound up, and the other owner tries to separate them and gets bitten. It doesn't matter how well trained he is *most* of the time, if on that one occasion an innocent passer by is badly bitten by the OP's dog, it's unacceptable. On this occasion, it was the owner who was hurt, but another time it could be someone else. If the only way to prevent that is to muzzle the dog all the time, so be it. Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to have it PTS if it has a track record.

Up till now he has always been on a short lead so he can't get to other dogs, and on all occasions off lead or when dogs might run up to us (because thier owners can't control them) he always wears a muzzle just in case. Unless we can tackle the dog aggression there will always be this risk someone might get in the way. He has no known track record until now and as soon as he did it he dropped himself to the floor. he will wear his muzzel all the time out of the house now.

My boyf has decided that the aggression was not directed at him but he got in the way. So are going to see what else we can do with the dog aggression and seek some more advice. In another 6 months we will have had him a year, if it's not sorted by then I can't imagine it ever will be and will have to made the hard decision of having him returned to the rescue/pts. It's would be a shame as he is great in every other way, in fact we could not have a more perfect house dog. We had taken him visting to different friends houses this week and had plenty of visitors this week due to the holidays and I was so happy with the progress he was making as we always have aired on the side of caution with him being a rescue and not having any details of his past.

Well i think its comendable that you are looking to get someone to help with these problems.

Far too many have there dog put down without taking proper advice or being advised to take proffesional help and dont bother. It shows your love and commitment for your dog.

From experience i have been bitten by my own dog whilst trying to split up a fight, i will be honest it has never crossed my mind to have him put to sleep, i got my hand in the way my fault. That is not making excuses thats how it was.

I wish you the best of luck Evei and hope things turn out for you.

Evie
You have got a problem here that needs sorting out and sorting out properly and speedily.

In your original post you say you have spent a lot of money on behavioural advise - but you are still having problems. Any behaviourist worth their fees will be supporting you through this - who have you used? Have you not continued with them? What was their advise - for this to have progressed to this state?

There are ways that this can be 'managed' but if the dog does have bull breeding in there, - often they will resort back to their instincts - which are - fighting - there's no two ways about it. Its like a greyhound - instinctively wants to run - labrador's want to sniff out - spaniels want to drive - they all do what they were instinctively bred to do. People spent generations getting these dogs to want to fight and thats what comes through sometimes in the dogs we have today. But we have to lay the rules down, that tell them - that this isn't acceptable - we don't want that.

The best advise i have ever had with an agressive dog, is you STOP it before it gets to this 'out of control zone'. So, before it sees another dog - you have to spot the other dog, and give your dog something else to do - which breaks that pattern of agression. Not always easy i know. Once the dogs go into 'dog frenzy' they don't realise person is in the way - its gone too far - so its up to you to ensure it doesn't get to that level.

On our web site we have a guy from Sheffield who we have had really good feed back from. He's called Phil Jackson http://www.pjdogtraining.co.uk/
He has helped a few people on here - with humane but firm methods. On no account should your dog go to group training - they are only for dogs that are under control - and it would be a nightmare for all concerned. Your dog should always be muzzled if taken out in public - at least until you get this sorted out.

If you work with a good behaviourist - and continue with that work - you should get an improvement and even sort out this problem to at least work out the basics of sorting it out.

I totally agree - dogs that bite people should be put to sleep - no two ways about it, but I feel your dog is out of control against other dogs - and you have to work out if you can get it sorted first - and if not - you will have no alternative than get him put to sleep.

Please do not leave it until this dog is out of control to pay for - and listen to qualified advise. We all need it - and these people know their job.

Good luck in your progress because it seems to me that you do want to get him sorted out.

Evie
You have got a problem here that needs sorting out and sorting out properly and speedily.

In your original post you say you have spent a lot of money on behavioural advise - but you are still having problems. Any behaviourist worth their fees will be supporting you through this - who have you used? Have you not continued with them? What was their advise - for this to have progressed to this state?.

We knew we had a problem the first week we got him, and very quickly we bought a muzzel as I discussed on here months ago, he has been muzzled anywhere dogs are off lead. We allowed him one month to settle into a routine and then got advice straight away. We are still doing what they said and have had 3 home visits so far, we will be getting back in touch. He was improving and we were getting to the stage of walking past sitting dogs and could sit in a cafe with other dogs around (with muzzel) no bother and walk past moving dogs at distance. He got attacked a month or so ago when on lead and muzzle by a bull terrier and it took us right back to the first stages again :(

The best advise i have ever had with an agressive dog, is you STOP it before it gets to this 'out of control zone'. So, before it sees another dog - you have to spot the other dog, and give your dog something else to do - which breaks that pattern of agression. Not always easy i know. Once the dogs go into 'dog frenzy' they don't realise person is in the way - its gone too far - so its up to you to ensure it doesn't get to that level. This is what we have been working on with the trainer, as soon as we see a response even if it's just a flick of his ears we try and change his attention, though this is the point we are stuck at. food/ toys/ commands/ noise just don't work and tbh other dog owners are not helping, allowing thier dogs to run up to us. I need to be somewhere were he can realise that dogs are around but are not going to run up to him and he can enjoy his training and learn that dogs are not going to come up to us/ attack him. He always settles around dogs once he realises they are no threat and will not come near him, I can have conversations with other dog owners once he's calmed down as he just lies down (though I would never trust him without his muzzle)

Please do not leave it until this dog is out of control to pay for - and listen to qualified advise. We all need it - and these people know their job. Good luck in your progress because it seems to me that you do want to get him sorted out.

I am desperate to get it sorted. I've been brought up around dogs and always have had dogs that are very well behaved...The trainer we have came recommended and to be honest had done a brill job with all the basic training and taught me some new tricks that have worked brilliantly. We will see if there is any other routes left with that and then try someone new. I know it is all due to the dog aggression but I'm still at a loss on how to stop it, it makes it much harder as he is very well behaved in other situations and I have pretty high standards!

Evie
you are right - dog agression is a real nightmare to sort out.
i myself have a terrible english bull terrier - and have never managed to stop him with it - i just manage it, and thankfully get to keep him away from other dogs, but it is horrible.
thats why i know that u need a behaviourist that is up to this sort of work.
not all understand bull breed mentality - but agression is agression -

can u say who you have been working with? just for interest sake - not that they have done anything wrong? just so i can understand the methods that they would be using.
I know many behav. won't work with agresive dogs, as its just so specialised.

Maybe phone up the rspca and ask for help or advise with him - they may have someone new working with them now they are at their new place?

good luck - and i hope you get the blighter sorted ok

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Yeah I will give them a ring too, I got him from the one in Bawltry (sp?) and I noticed they had some adverts up for people when we where there. I was meaning to drop off a couple of photos for them so they could see how he has changed as it's nice to see the dogs in the new homes. I think one of the people there had got quite attached to him as they wanted to rehome him themselves but he apparently would not settle with thier existing dog; though did'nt try to attack it! (he was orginally handed in with a female dog that he had lived with so I'm guessing they thought he would be ok with living with another dog)

Oh well I feel a little better now I've got a plan of action. All I want to do is get him to a stage that he can be responsive and calm when dogs are around even though he most likely will always have to be on lead.