Does anyone here like classical music? This may seem like a strange question, but there never seem to be any posts on this wonderful art form. For anyone who is not into it, I suggest it is well worth exploring. The rewards will be a lifetime of companionship with an multi-faceted art which is capable of expressing every form of human experience - and at its best even transcending it. If you want music to reflect all the joys and sorrows of life, or to reflect or change a mood, its there somewhere, and then some.

If you are into rock music, there’s no reason why you shouldn’t like classical music as well. I like virtually all kinds of music, apart from twelve note serialism (a musical dead end if there ever was one) and free-form Jazz (self indulgent aural doodling). I have a big collection of music from different genres and cultures, including rock, blues, folk, Cajun, bluegrass, gospel, hip hop, even Javanese Gamalan etc. But if I were ever on Desert island Discs (an unlikely prospect) most of my choices would be classical, and I would have to include some Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, Schubert and Bach – with perhaps a choral work by Vivaldi too.

A common misconception about classical music is that, generally speaking, its for older age groups. In fact, many of the great composers wrote some of their greatest works when they were young: Mozart died at 35, Schubert at 31 and Chopin at 37. The works of Mozart and Schubert for example overflow with youthful exuberance and energy.
Another common misconception is that you have to read music to understand or appreciate it. No you don’t. I would guess that most fans of the genre can’t read music, or at least not very well.

I can’t see why there should be such a big divide between the audiences for classical and rock music. Some classical composers/musicians, notably Paganini and Liszt were the rock stars of their day. Some of Beethoven’s works, such as some of his chamber music, and also some of his orchestral works, contain fierce, pulsating riffs which have a heavy metal, Zeppelinesque quality about them.

Its ironic that on this forum, the quality of various rock bands have been discussed ad infinitum- but I can’t remember any reference to the Sheffield-based Lindsay string quartet (disbanding this year) which is one of the world’s greatest and which has done much to put Sheffield on the map amongst followers of classical music, with their music in the round concerts.

Nice post, mi Lord.

In the 70's for me, it was punk or nothing, in the 80's I fell in love with ska, in the 90's I became an indie lover, but this decade I've discovered the passion of the symphs and philhis.

Mozart I adore and worship as a God, but I have a soft spot for Beethoven, Strauss, Handel and Elgar.

I have a large enough collection now to compliment any mood I'm in, from the Moonlight Sonata when I'm at my saddest, through to Verdi's Requiem - Dies Irae when I'm at my most manic. Although I must admit I've yet to discover anything that sits better with fury and foul temper than Bodies by the Sex Pistols. :hihi: (Though I'm still looking)

I like classical music immenseley. It's something thet came upon me as an adult - my parents weren't really in to it, although they listened to a lot of light opera, operetta, etc. on the radio and I guess that told me there was more music out there than pop!

I have a particular fondness for French composers - Faure, Debussy, etc. and 'big hitters' like Mahler and Wagner. I guess the latter is somehow appropriate for a Mod. ;) As for favourites - it very much depends wht mood I'm in, but I can always find time for Faure's 'Pelleas and Mellisande', the overture from Wagner's 'Tannhauser', Debussy's 'Prelude d'apres-mid d'une faune', Vaughn Williams' 'Greensleeves Fantasia' and Elgar's 'Cello Concerto'.

But, I'll quite happily try any composer out - I often listen to classical music when working - I find it intrudes less on the mental process of programming than, for example, rock or jazz.

Joe

Certain classical music I would describe as "heavy" meaning hard to listen to. This kind of stuff requires quite a few listens before you can truly enjoy. A good way to get into this heavy classical music is to be in a band or orchestra which plays it. And a rehersal session, in preperation for a performance usually requires constant going back to certain sections to get the balance of certain instruments right. In this way you get familiar with even the most hidden parts of the piece, and subsequently listen with a much better ear when you hear one of the world's top orchestras playing the same.

On the other hand there are many occasions when classical music has been integrated into modern music to great effect. Especially into heavy rock and metal, but for example. The beach boys used JS Bach's Jesu, Man's Desire in their song Lady Linda. Procal Harem* used Air on a G string as the basis for Whiter Shade of Pale. David Bowie in the 70s used classical chord structure in some of his songs. Metallica did an incredible concert with a full symphony orchestra, which was conducted by Michael Kamen, the video of this makes the hairs stand up on the back of your neck it is so powerful. Rainbow used Beethoven's 9th for their song difficult to cure. And daftest of all, Yngwe Malmstein, one of the 80s speed guitar merchants, used to have the initials J.S.B. in the middle of his name in tribute to Bach.

In more recent times, William Orbit used Barber's Adagio for stings to great effect, although this is a particularly moving and easy to listen to piece of music, it is used by american media particularly as modern mourning music especially associated with the 9 - 11 disaster. At the time It was played from time to time on more popular radio stations, just like "everybody hurts" was played to death when Lady Di was killed.

* Thanks Siân

Pachelbel's Canon :thumbsup:

A very simple reply, YES! i've loved it all my life, in particular, I have always been thrilled by opera, especially the tenor voice, although this is a voice which we have no great artists left to compare with those of the past.
Unfortunately, classical music is always going to be a minority interest, over the years, I have even avoided telling people of my interest as they look at you in a slightly strange way!
Since we moved to Scarborough to live, we buy a season ticket for the superb Spa Orchestra, they perform some 120 concerts through out the season, at prices that can be afforded, light classics admittedly, but performed superbly.
I would certainly like to come over to Sheffield when the City Hall is finally reopened, to sample once again, some of the great performances I have experienced in the past.

If I am very stressed I listen to opera, it helps me de-stress.

I occasional go and watch an opera if I can find the time.

I like classical when working on my projects so I can concentrate.

Barber's Adagio was used, I believe, at the funerals of both President Roosevelt and President Kennedy and the American people have had a long association with it because of those events.

It was also used to brilliant effect (IMO) in Platoon. Whoever thought to use that piece in the film to underwrite the brutality of the fighting and the lost innocence of the soldiers, after it had been used in JFK's funeral, was a smart fellow.

Beautiful piece of music. Always makes me cry.

Although when William Orbit went to town on it I was weeping for another reason...:)

Joe

I like to listen to Strauss and Tchaikovsky but my favourite is the tenor voice.
Jussi Bjorling (the swedish tenor) and The tiny man with the big voice (rumanian tenor) Joseph Shmidt are two of my favourites.

Dont think theres anyone around today to compare.

I think the hardest thing about getting into classical music is spelling/ pronouncing composer's names ;)
I love classical piano, my favourite composer being Rachmaninov. And it was actually rock music that stimulated me to listen to more classical music (my favourite band being Muse).

Originally posted by JoePritchard
Although when William Orbit went to town on it I was weeping for another reason...:)

Joe
Hi joe, I actually bought the william orbit cd single and It has a proper full unadulterated classical version on it, and that is the only track on there that is worth listening to. And It sounds incredible on my extremely expensive hifi system.

Yes, I like some classical music but I don't know the names to most of them - will have to look it up!

What people forget is that quite a few top chart songs have used the same music from a classical song - just sped it up etc.

My boyfriend loves Barber - Adagio For Strings (I think he would have it played at his funeral) and he also likes a lot of the russian choir songs.

Classical music seems to be a catch all term to describe all music from about 1700 to 1900 and any modern orchestral music.

I like some classical music: Beethoven, Mozart, Sibelius, Dvorak are my favourites.

I think the big thing with listening to classical music is you have to pick the music to suit your mood and state of mind more so than with "popular" music. Its no good sitting down for a heavy session of Wagner if you want to chill out at the end of a hectic day at work unless you are really keen on him.

I could'nt agree more with TARA, Juusi Bjorling was THE tenor of the fifties and sixties, Joseph Smidt was famous during the forties, a beautiful warm voice, with amazing high notes, unfortunately he was a German Jew, and ended his life in a camp for internees in Switzerland.
H.M.V. have reissued some of his best recordings, if anyone gets chance to hear them they make a very emotional experience.

I don't know if it's right but someone on the radio a little while ago said that after being used on the soundtrack of Platoon, Barber's Adagio now holds the same place in America that Elgar's Nimrod does in Britiain, and is used in a similar way at rememberance services etc.

Originally posted by muddycoffee
Hi joe, I actually bought the william orbit cd single and It has a proper full unadulterated classical version on it, and that is the only track on there that is worth listening to. And It sounds incredible on my extremely expensive hifi system.

I didn't hear anything of it except what was played on the radio - that was enough!

The recording I have features several of Barber's pieces - I got it in the early 1990s. It was recorded by the St Louis Symphony Orchestra conducted by Leonard Slatkin, and it's a nice recording.

It sounds excellent on my less than expensive CD player in the study, my remarkably inexpensive hifi system in the living room and my positively cheap CD drive in my PC. :)

Joe

I adore Classical Music in general. A Desert Island choice would be the following:-
1] Wagner's Ring Cycle of Operas
2] Wagner's The Flying Dutchman
3] Bruckner's Eighth Symphony
4] Mozart's Six String Quartets devoted to Haydn ['The Hunt' etc].
5] Mahler's Second Symphony 'The Resurrection'.
6] Brahms' First Symphony
7]Bach's Brandenburg Concertos
8] Vaughan-Williams' Third Symphony
9] Beethoven's 9th Symphony
10] Schubert's Sonata for Piano and Arpeggioni

I also love Haydn, Debussy, Satie, Elgar, Puccini, Telemann, Vivaldi, and Sibelius.

I have a strong feeling that some work by Steve Reich, Terry Riley, Gavin Bryars, Philip Glass, and perhaps Brian Eno, of the 'Minimalist' school will be remembered as the 'Classical' music of our age, alongside the atonal/ electronic experiments of Stockhausen, Cage etc. I would like to think so, at any rate.

Many thanks to Lord Chaverly, for yet another good thread.

Originally posted by timo
I adore Classical Music in general. A Desert Island choice would be the following:-
1] Wagner's Ring Cycle of Operas
2] Wagner's The Flying Dutchman
3] Bruckner's Eighth Symphony
4] Mozart's Six String Quartets devoted to Haydn ['The Hunt' etc].
5] Mahler's Second Symphony 'The Resurrection'.
6] Brahms' First Symphony
7]Bach's Brandenburg Concertos
8] Vaughan-Williams' Third Symphony
9] Beethoven's 9th Symphony
10] Schubert's Sonata for Piano and Arpeggioni

are they all by the same artist, Timo? I've never heard of those tracks!:confused:

I love classical music but I am not much of an expert. I don't so much have favourite composers but rather favourite pieces. I will mostly hear something on an advert or in a movie and this prompts me to find out what it is. As my knowledge is limited I tend to buy compilations rather than a specific composer. I find classical music really stirs the emotions. I think maybe for me it is the lack of lyrics or indeed when there is singing its in a language I don't understand so my mind will focus solely on the emotion of the music.

I love the soft and soothing lull of Satie's Gnossienne No1 and Gymnopedies II, and the clarity of Bach's Goldberg Variations. I love how some pieces build seemingly frenetically, almost insanely then in an instant calm again. Handel's Sarabande and Mozart's Requiem send shivers down my spine! Myer's Cavatina is truly beautiful and never fails to bring tears to my eye's as does Lucio Dalla's Caruso - I have no idea what is being sang but I don't need to, the emotion of it hits me smack in the chest! Perhaps if I did understand it, it wouldn't be the same. I also enjoy the more modern works of Thomas Newman, John Williams, and Stephen Warbeck.

Modern classical is very popular at the minute and is bringing it to the masses.

Ludovico Einaudi and Catherine Jenkins can do no wrong at the moment, and I think the CD "Classic FM for babies" has been at number one in the album charts for weeks!

Sonofman,
Sorry, I should have been more specific. The Ring Cycle is by Basement Jax, the Symphonies by The Cheeky Girls, the String Quartets by S Club Seven [pitched at a higher plane of abstracton], and the Sonata is by Beyonce.

I include classical amongst the many kinds of music I enjoy - particularly J.S.Bach and modern french organ music.

Has anyone else discovered the very useful website

www.musipedia.org

This is an ingenious way to identify many (mainly classical but some pop too) tunes and themes by just being able to sing them.

Originally posted by Yodameister
Classical music seems to be a catch all term to describe all music from about 1700 to 1900 and any modern orchestral music.

I like some classical music: Beethoven, Mozart, Sibelius, Dvorak are my favourites.

I think the big thing with listening to classical music is you have to pick the music to suit your mood and state of mind more so than with "popular" music. Its no good sitting down for a heavy session of Wagner if you want to chill out at the end of a hectic day at work unless you are really keen on him.

Yoda,

I agree that 'classical music' can be a catch all term, in that it covers a very diverse range of musical forms. However, I must disagree with you about the dates.

In fact, the classical repertoire spans music from many centuries prior to 1700 and is indeed intextricable from the development of Western civilisation. In fact, most of the great English composers, such as Tallis, Byrd, Dowland, Gibbons and (perhaps the greatest of all) Purcell, all died before 1700. Of the great European composers, Monteverdi, Palestrina, Lassus, Frescobaldi, Couperin and Lully (to name but a few) also all died before 1700. Similarly, Gregorian chant - which has made something of a comeback in recent years - dates back to at least the the 11th or 12th centuries, and probably even earlier.

Far from ending in about 1900, the repertoire has been continously enriched by composers writing in a wide variety of genres (not just orchestral). Just a (very) few post 1900 examples are Bartok, Stravinsky, Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Copeland, Sibelius, Vaughan Williams, Britten, Carter, Barber, Gorecki, Taverner, Part, Adams and Glass.

The classical tradition and repertoire embraces composers who are very much alive (e.g. the last four mentioned above) - as is the music itself, which lends itself to reinterpretation, innovation and experimentation.

phanfm periodically plays the delights of

Zappa
Sibelius
Varese
Ligeti
Mussorgsky
Stravinsky
Bach

Some interesting posts here, especially Lord C's erudite and informative contribution.

I can see Phan's point regarding 'picking the correct mood'. Yes, of course, if one wished to, in common parlance, 'chill out' with one's booty ho, one might require a particular musical mood. Mahler and Bruckner's huge symphonies might not be useful here, nor Wagner's epic operas, because [to coin a cliche] they all 'run the gamut of human emotion'. There are too many emotional surprises, and sudden changes in mood, tempo, volume etc. Perhaps, if one is looking for music which does not produce many emotional surprises, and is a kind of sustained musical environment, a static state kind of music, then the chamber music of Mozart and Haydn is perfect.

Minimalists like Brian Eno [ Coined the term 'Ambient' music, and has composed pieces like 'Discreet Music', 'Thursday Afternoon', 'Music For Airports', 'On Land' etc] , compose 'sound environments', where there is little dramatic, emotional change, and more of a gentle, unfolding of musical events. These elongated, 'soundscapes' are not just influenced by the obvious sources of La Monte Young, Steve Reich, and Eastern 'drone' musics, but also by the elegant, String Quartets of Haydn and Mozart.

Music such as Eno's 'ambient' pieces, the 'true' Classical chamber music of Mozart and Haydn, etc is ideal for relaxation because it suggests infinity, and acts to transform time. One could be forgiven for thinking that an Eno piece lasted 40 mins, when in fact it may last only 10. The music, and this is true of the elegant quartets of Haydn [particularly the slow adagios], can alter our perception of time. It functions as a field for conscious listening, but also works well [to relax one] if not subject to direct focus.

I like classical music, but I know nothing about it except who wrote a couple of the "tunes" I like (mainly opera stuff).

Classic FM is a good radio station to listen to when you want to relax, even the adverts are nice and polite.

Anybody that had a grounding in music, in my case, not music case you understand, started off by learning the classics. Piano lessons at 4 years old, that was I. That gave me a grounding in music, classical and otherwise.

The tuition was such that I could understand construction and meaning as time progressed, we are talking here at the age of 10ish.

I am a rock'n'roller at heart, 50s stuff, but have taught communication of music for OCN and WEA and had 7 years on BBC Radio Sheffield and BBC Radio North for my sins.

Without that basic training in classical music I would not understand AABA, 4 notation turnaround, 12 bar blues construction or that the Bossa Nova is 4,4 5,4,5 beat construction or.................I could carry on

Thank you to Classical music that, like the good Inspector Endeavour Morse, I still play cruising today.

Interesting thread.

My favourites would be:-

Mozart's 40th Symphony
Dvorak's 9th Symphony (From the New World)
Pachelbel's Canon (used in every other pop song it seems)
Grieg's Pier Gynt Suites
Mahler's 5th Symphony (fourth movement)
Beethoven's Emporer (5th?)
Rachmaninov's 2nd Piano Concerto
Elgar's Enigma Variations*
Albinoni's Adagio in Dm
and loads others.

* Nimrod is a musical soundscape of my late father's passing. He died of cancer in 1998 and Nimrod, in the way it rises and falls toward the end, reminds me of my father's last few breaths.

You'll notice in the song a huge, tragic moment where the song having peaked then falls into horrific darkness. It has fallen into a place from which it can no longer return. That huge sigh (the minor chord key change) IS my father's last breath. The pain of the song, the sheer drama and stark reality is - to these ears at least - a musical form of the word 'death'.

Then, all is at peace as the movement quietly fades away. That peace, is my father lying on the bed in the hospital, his life ended but with the pain and suffering finished, at peace at last.

Classical Music - sure is a sentimental journey!

Nick,
That is fair enough. I always remember what an old music teacher [Colin Whitely] told me, regarding the 'snobbery' surrounding Classical Music. He told me never to feel that something was 'too difficult' or 'too high-brow' or 'not for me'. His point was that music was made by human beings for human beings.There might be a few exceptions to the latter, but generally, Whitely's maxim is correct.

Boppinbruce,
I would never deny the great value of a classical training in music. Obviously, if one intends to play violin to the standard of Salvatore Accardo, it would be absolutely essential to have one! However, a great many musicians nowadays produce excellent music without having been trained at all, and without actually being able to read music. In some cases, and Brian Eno springs to my mind again, they have developed marvellous, ideosyncracies of musical style that would have been either constrained or actually eliminated by formal academic instruction. Eno describes himself as a 'non-musician'. In truth, he is nothing of the sort. He is self-taught, and has mastered many instruments, plus the art of producing records too. He does understand the rudiments of music, re time, pitch etc, it is just that he has arrived at the knowledge by intuition, immitation and practice. Obviously, as I said before, that would be not be an appropriate strategy for anyone wishing to embark upon a career playing Western Classical 'High Art' music.

The boundaries between 'High Art' and 'Low Art' have blurred to an extent. However, I wonder if anyone feels the 'blurring' has gone too far? Does Nigel Kennedy's approach ['Hendrix is as important as Vivaldi', the donning of Aston Villa scarves etc] represent a good way of widening the appreciation of music categorised as 'classical', or is it really part of a 'yoof'-oriented, callow and basically insincere and patronising attempt to increase sales of water-down 'best of' compilations, and a Mc Donaldisation of 'classical' music? I rather think it is a case of the latter, on the whole.

When I see Nigel Kennedy on TV I cringe a bit, it's like he's saying "Yo! I'm down with the street kids, but I play a violin, it's cool". However someone like Vanessa Mae or YoYo Ma are modern and quite sexy/cool without looking like total pillocks.

I've never really been able to get into classical music in a major way, but I do love some pieces. Generally speaking, anything dramatic, and chances are I'll like it! Especially if it's Russian/East European, for some reason ??

Some favourites of mine:

- Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture
- Tchaikovsky's Marche Slave - wonderful!
- Greig's Peer Gynt, esp In the Hall of the Mountain King
- Ravel's Bolero
- Holst's Planet Suite

I'm also quite fond of Chopin, Mozart and Vivaldi.

StarSparkle

Iagree with you re the oafish Kennedy. I think there is a wider trend towards marketing classical musicians as 'glamorous personalities'. Some might argue that Paganini is a past example, and that this is nothing new. Paganini was not required to pose in boxer shorts, to my knowledge. Vanessa Mae is marketed in flimsy clothing [not that I am complaining], as is Anne Sophie-Mutter. Lesley Garrett's album covers emphasise her womanliness etc. Maybe Miroslav Rostropovich will wear a 'posing pouch' soon, in order to increase appreciation of the Cello? One rather hopes not.

A Classical Violinist of my acquaintance once grudgingly stated that despite his grating persona, Nigel Kennedy was a pretty hot violinist. I'm not sure if that is the case any longer.

It's weird, we have a rock/pop industry based on artists becoming famous for songs that (many times) they have not written, Classical composers are famous for pieces they have written, but no longer perform, and we have cut-up artists sampling all of the above, and DJs being celebrated for playing records by artists that cut up former musical recordings to make their own....

Thanks Timo, I've heard of most of those composers you mention but my particular favorites are.....


Hooked on Classics
2. Hooked on Romance
3. Hooked on Bach
4. Hooked on Tchaikovsky
5. Hooked on a Song
6. Hooked on Mozart
7. Hooked on Mendelssohn
8. Hooked on a Can Can

All available on one cd so no messing around taping it off the radio and i nice rythmic drumbeat that links all the tracks.... bliss!!!

Sonofman,
Ah, you are a man of culture, after all. The drumbeat is essential, one finds, to liven up those dull adagios of Elgar and Vaughan-Williams. The beautiful, sonorous 'bam, bam, bam' certainly works as a suitable backdrop to Schubert's lieder. Let's face it, wouldn't one simply die if one had to endure Wagner without electronic drums? Sophistication! Thy name is Sonofman!

Excellent points and well put as usual Timo.

I am sure Sonofman would have loved Mozart's legendary gig at the Vienna Stadium of Light in 1787. Apparently, his roadies needed 200 heavy dray horses and fifty carts to transport his instruments, sound systems and light show. From the moment Mozart stepped on stage and said 'good evening Vienna', the audience knew they were in for a real bravura performance. The light show was fanatastic - who would have thought that Vienna had so many candles. As well as going through his greatest hits, Wolfie also introduced the audience to some new, experimental works. Ever the showman, he bounced around on stage all evening, pausing only to shake hands with people in the front row, who were soon gavotting in the aisles. Some people thought that his exuberance went a little too far when he bit the head off a chicken, but that's Wolfie for you. At the end of the gig, Wolfie distributed charity wrist bands in aid of Pomeranian debt relief and of the starving crofters of the Scottish highlands. After several encores, during which he smashed up two violas and a piano, he disappeared in a cloud of smoke whilst playing a blisteringly fast set of arpeggios to the tune of the Austrian national anthem on a heart shaped violin.

And I thought Kylie Minogue's spectacular (it says here) shows were all her own doing.

Pah, modern pop stars eh? Where's the originality?

Have a go at this : http://www.philipglass.com/glassengine/

A lot of heavy rock music is based on the classics.
One of my favourites is Emerson Lake and Palmers "Pictures at an Exhibition" album written by Mussorgsky.

I remember (as part of a band) playing Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture at the Crucible Theatre and nearly bringing the house down.

We had the Timpany and tubular bells just right, thats what makes the 1812.

<<<<<*Apologises for talking sense*

Originally posted by viking
I remember (as part of a band) playing Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture at the Crucible Theatre and nearly bringing the house down.

We had the Timpany and tubular bells just right, thats what makes the 1812.


And the cannon going off..... :thumbsup: :D

StarSparkle

PS I'd love to hear the 1812 being played live - I bet it would be a fabulous experience

Originally posted by StarSparkle
And the cannon going off..... :thumbsup: :D

StarSparkle

PS I'd love to hear the 1812 being played live - I bet it would be a fabulous experience

It is, Its a lot better playing though, makes you go cold.

Lord Chaverly,
Yes, that was a wonderful night's gavotting, one can imagine. Apparently, 'Wolfie' [or, as some called him, 'Mozzer'] had a good support act too in 'Joey' Haydn. The older performer, realising that his concertos and quartets were not quite up to the standard of his young friend's matchless contributions to the genre, concentrated upon crowd-pleasing, more 'urban' material. From the beginning, it was clear that Kappelmeister Haydn was, 'in the house', with invited guests such as Christoph 'Terminator' Gluck, and the wildly 'col' lampin'' librettist, Lorenza da Ponte. They most certainly 'bum rushed' the show, and afterwards there was a great deal of merchandise available to purchase; powdered 'Wolfie' and 'Joey' wigs, silken fans etc.

Would that Sonofman had been there to appreciate it?

Wolfgang Amadeus 'Mozzer' Mozart - LOL!!

Nice one, Timo!

You are such a wag! :thumbsup:

StarSparkle :)

I know, I know. But Nick 2 is better than me with the one-liners!

Originally posted by timo
I know, I know. But Nick 2 is better than me with the one-liners!

Oh no, not at all - don't do yourself down, Timo!

I still giggle when I think of that comment of yours about Fern Brittan setting the fires going in Abu Dhabi :hihi: :D (only you phrased it much more eloquently!).

Long may your humour brighten the forum! :thumbsup:

StarSparkle

PS Oh dear, I'm turning into such a creep! :gag:

Star,
I believe it was ,'set Abu Dhabi ablaze' with passion re her womanliness. This was a reference to the alleged Arab preference for the fuller female figure.

Back to music, yours was a nice selection, I must say. You appear to like passion and emotion in music, don't you? I'll bet you would like Mahler, especially his huge Second Symphony. Maybe you do? I do too, but I also appreciate elegant, measured restraint in music. The epitome of which are the aforementioned Mozart and Haydn string quartets; as exquisitely perfect in form as a Greek vase. Bach too, especially in the slow, adagios of his concertos is so refined. Sometimes, there is the suggestion of controlled violence in Bach's adagios, like a Panther on a thin leash. This has been picked up on [I think] in the use of his music in the films Silence of the Lambs and Hannibal. In the former case, it is the slowly unfolding Goldberg Variations. The Director [Ridley Scott, I think] appears to be implying that the music suggests a parallel with the pathology of Hannibal Lector. In other words, both are examples of immense power lurking beneath the cultivated, refined veneer.

Originally posted by timo
Star,
I believe it was ,'set Abu Dhabi ablaze' with passion re her womanliness. This was a reference to the alleged Arab preference for the fuller female figure..

Of course, Timo, I know! :rolleyes:

That was the phrase though - 'set Abu Dhabi ablaze'! That is so funny - I just love it! You see, I knew you phrased it so much more elegantly than I did! Oh no, you've set me off giggling again!!.....

Getting back to music :D

You're absolutely right, I do indeed love passion and emotion in music. Music without at least one or other is pretty much pointless in my opinion - music without a soul. Little more than background noise.

I've often thought I probably would like Mahler, but I really can't remember hearing anything by him - not knowingly, anyway.

I do quite like what I've heard of Bach, but I must admit that classical music does tend to wash over me a bit, unless, as I say, there's a lot of drama to remember it by eg, the 1812.

I'm afraid I'll always be a punk rock girl at heart! :)

StarSparkle

Good selections there Timo. I have been listening to some of Haydn's wonderful quartets in the last few days (which is not unusual, as they are never far from my CD player) - elegance, charm, beauty, perfect balance, its all there in the quartets (he is sometimes referred to as the father of the string quartet, which, although not quite historically accurate, may as well be, because he took the form to new heights and established it as an art form in its own right). No wonder Mozart admired him so much - and vice versa. The Kodaly quartet's complete recordings on the Naxos label are wonderful. By coincidence, I have also been listening to Tureck's versions of the Goldberg variations. Again wonderful.

With regard to string quartets, there is another composer who took this art form to even greater heights in his own inimitable way, and that is Beethoven - again these marvellous compositions are never far from my CD player. Its funny, that at the time they were written, the late quartets were not understood and were even regarded by many experts (such as the composer Sphor) as the work of a madman, not least because some of them teeter on the edge of atonality and because they challenged some of the musical conventions of the time. Now they are widely regarded as among the finest creative works ever written. They say everything about the human condition - joy, sorrow, hope, anxiety etc - its all there in the late quartets. They have a strange, irridiscent quality about them, so I never get tired of listening to them.

Must Beethoven be regarded as among the very greatest (perhaps the greatest?). Muss es sein? Es muss sein!

Lord Chaverly,
One of my heroes, the conservative philosopher Roger Scruton, considers Beethoven's late Quartets to be the finest examples of the genre. They are sublimely beautiful, and do indeed, at times, venture towards the threshold of atonality. My opinion, for what it is worth, is that the six Quartets dedicated to Haydn, by Mozart [or, to Joey by Mozzer, if you will] are even finer examples of chamber music. The 'Hunt' and the 'Dissonances' [the beginning of the latter, surprisingly teeters near to the atonal boundary] in particular, surpass Beethovan's admittedly brilliant work in terms of invention, panache and form. That is my view. Then again, Sonofman probably has a Drum and Bass version of Beethoven's late Quartets that outstrips anything in my puny collection. He must have the last word, as the true expert on Classical music on the Forum. Who is 'the bestest'? Luddo or Mozzer? Let none dare pass judgement till Sonofman has spoken.

Perhaps someone can help me. About twenty years ago I tuned in to python's Terry Jones on Desert Island Discs. He had chosen a Mozart piece, the title of which was something along the lines of "serenade for woodwind instruments". I'm sure that most of you watched Amadeus; the scene in which it featured was fairly memorable in that Salieri was in raptures listening to it, narrating on how beautifully it was constructed. It was sort of a pulsing repeating rhythm, dat dat - dah dah dah dat dat over which a single instrument (a clarinet?) comes in after a few bars.

I've tried Googling for the name, and trawling through Mozart's works in databases online, but keep drawing blanks. Anybody help?

This sounds very much like Mozart’s Serenade for Wind Octet, K388

or it could be the serenade for 13 wind instruments, known as
the Serenade in B flat, K361.

Both are very fine pieces and well worth listening to. The latter is a spectacular piece, not just because of the unusual ensemble, but also of course because what Mozart achieves with it.

Lord C and Ant,
I think his Lordship is correct re K361. What a lovely piece it is too! Mind you, Sonofman probably has an even better 'Funky House' version in his vast collection.

Thanks, chaps. Yes, the K361 is the one - I thought there was a 13 in there somewhere. Each time I hear it, it never fails to pull on my heart strings (My heartstrings are tuned to F# by the way :rolleyes: ).

Now to look for it on Amazon - it's only taken me twenty years to find it! Don't you just love the Forum?

I was very stressed at work today - I have to say that I reached for Vaughn Williams's 'Fantasia on Greensleeves' for relaxation.

Excellent.

Joe

Originally posted by JoePritchard
I was very stressed at work today - I have to say that I reached for Vaughn Williams's 'Fantasia on Greensleeves' for relaxation.

Excellent.

Joe

I was driving up the M1 on Sunday listening to Beethoven's 6th Symphony conducted by Sir Simon Rattle. I hadn't heard it for a while so was able to enjoy it a fresh. The solitude of motorway driving is the perfect situation to become submerged in a piece of music.

However the finest piece of Classical (Romantic if you want to be a pedant) music is Rachmaninov's 2nd Piano Concerto.

He wrote the piece after a prolonged period of reflection and depression. He dedicated the piece to him psychiatrist who had enabled him to write and perform again.

It's an incredibly sad piece of music that enables the listener to empathise with Sergi's mind set when he wrote it.

Well worth a listen, you can actually buy a copy of the concerto from circa 1923 with Sergi playing the piano.

Originally posted by timo
Lord Chaverly,
One of my heroes, the conservative philosopher Roger Scruton, considers Beethoven's late Quartets to be the finest examples of the genre. They are sublimely beautiful, and do indeed, at times, venture towards the threshold of atonality. My opinion, for what it is worth, is that the six Quartets dedicated to Haydn, by Mozart [or, to Joey by Mozzer, if you will] are even finer examples of chamber music. The 'Hunt' and the 'Dissonances' [the beginning of the latter, surprisingly teeters near to the atonal boundary] in particular, surpass Beethovan's admittedly brilliant work in terms of invention, panache and form. That is my view. Then again, Sonofman probably has a Drum and Bass version of Beethoven's late Quartets that outstrips anything in my puny collection. He must have the last word, as the true expert on Classical music on the Forum. Who is 'the bestest'? Luddo or Mozzer? Let none dare pass judgement till Sonofman has spoken.

Hi Timo,

Well, as a professor of Aesthetics, Scruton should know a thing or two about beauty in art. But I don't think that it is beauty alone qualifies Beethoven's quartets as the very finest in the genre. There is at least as much beauty in the quartets of Mozart and Haydn, perhaps even more. And if we are judging these works in relation to balance and form, then again again the word perfection springs to mind with regard to both Haydn and Mozart. What in my view we find in Beethoven's late chamber music - and not only in the quartets, but also in for example his sonatas - is the truth of living (pain, joy, hope, anxiety etc) and also meanings about life which cannot be put into words. These can also to some degree be found in Mozart and Haydn, but in my view it is beauty of form and balance which tends to predominate, whereas in Beethoven's late chamber works there is a jaggedness, an unevenness, with sudden changes of mood and tempo, which somehow reflects the essence of human existence, indeed all the joys and sorrows of life. And what is more, he did all of this within the classical form (although by extending and perhaps carrying this form to its limits). He was not a Romantic composer, but his works no doubt had an influence upon the many Romantic composers of post-classical period.

Ultimately, I am sure you will agree, it comes down to personal preference. Discussing the relative merits of the great composers is just as much a parlour game as discussing the merits of rock bands. For my money though, I think there are five composers who surpass all of the rest. These are (not necessarily in order) Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, Bach and Schubert. I think probably the biggest tragedy in music was the loss of Schubert at 31, at a time when he was producing scintillatingly brilliant works, such as the great String Quintet in C. Who knows, had he lived a few years more, he could have been the greatest of them all.

Lord C,
You make some very, very cogent and thought-provoking comments on Beethoven here. Perhaps Scruton and your good self are correct here. For my part, there is seldom any of the sheer grace, elegance and charm we find in Mozart. Instead, there is a wonderful sense of growth and sheer cosmic power to Beethoven's music. For example, I am sure you will agree, there is a 'bigness' to the symphonies which has to do not so much with their actual length as with the variety and concentration of ideas which fills them. Perhaps, on reflection, Beethoven does get nearer to describing what it is to be 'human' than Mozart. You are correct re his great influence upon later composers, especially Brahms [the 'progressive conservative', as Schoenberg called him].

Your list of the greatest reflects is hard to argue against, and reflects your great taste and high intellect. However, I would expand the list to seven. I would include Wagner and Bruckner.

Bruckner, in my view, wrote the greatest symphonies of all time. This is a bold thing to say, but I

-sorry, I pressed the wrong key there.

re Bruckner, this may seem a bold thing to say, but his work surpasses the symphonies of Beethoven in terms of describing the human condition, expressing intense feelings [in Bruckner's case, devout Roman Catholicism] etc. The influence of Beethoven, and especially Wagner, can be heard in his music. However, Bruckner takes these influences and produces something new and absolutely unique with them. As in nearly all romantic works, emotion is much more important than structure and form, but Bruckner's symphonies are also exquisite in form. How I love the 'big, spacious themes', as Scruton has referred to them. A good friend of mine saw the magnificent 8th symphony performed in Austria. How I envy him!

Re Wagner, here is a giant of a composer, who squeezed every drop from his own emotions in the creation of the greatest of all operas. Wagner combined the German language with music of awesome power to the point where he had really created a 'new, art form- the 'music-drama'. I do not think any human being has ever created anything to match Wagner's cycle of four operas, Der Ring des Nibelungen. When one reflects that Wagner wrote the entire libretto himself [based on Norse/Teutonic mythology], before he even started composing the sublime music, and had a lot to do with the design and building of a special opera house at Bayreuth for the performances, one gets an idea of how this was one of the biggest creative undertakings ever attempted in the history of theatre. Wagner enlarged the size of the orchestra until it had reached the size of the modern symphony orchestra, in order to obtain both the sheer power and effects he wanted. He also demanded of each member of the orchestra standards of performance which previously only soloists had been expected to achieve. He revolutionised music by his use of harmony, and by the use of his lietmotiv, did away with the need for conventional arias, threading music together into the vast, continuous tapestries of sound we can hear in 'The Ring'. Truly, Wagner is one of the greatest, if not the greatest of composers?

Hi Timo,

Well, Bruckner and Wagner are both serious candidates I will agree, even more so since you rate them so highly, as indeed I do your judgement on music and many other subjects upon which you have so eloquently pronounced on this forum.

If we take Bruckner first, yes I agree symphonies reach the celestial heights, particularly so the 8th and 9th. They give us what Arnold Koestler referred to in a different context the 'oceanic feeling', or perhaps the term cathedrals in sound might be more appropriate, given Bruckner's deep religious faith. I would agree that he is far superior to most other so-called Romantic composers (a much abused term) in that there is a clearly discernable form and structure to his works - not surprising, since he claimed Beethoven to be one of his main influences, along with Wagner. I much prefer him to Mahler and to some of the lesser Romantic composers of the era, because his works do not wallow in emotional slush.

I also like what I know of Bruckner the man. I remember listening to a radio programme about his life some years ago, about his habit of writing romantic or quasi-romantic, but at the same time very courteous, letters to much younger women. But if they replied positively, apparently he tended to back away. He was regarded apparently by many in the musical establishment of the time as basically an Austrian peasant (apparently he tried to tip the conductor of one of his works - I can't imagine his heroes, Beethoven or Wagner doing that). I find his social ineptness quite endearing, given the almost Nietschean power of his music.

As for Wagner, I agree with you both about the intrinsic merits of his music and also about its revolutionary influence upon orchestral music - as for Wagner the man, well, perhaps the less said the better. I also know how people can enthuse about his music, to the extent it becomes almost obsessional (as case in point perhaps being the late Bernard Levin, who's column in The Times was referred to by Private Eye as 'The Daily Wagner').

Both very serious candidates I agree, but in my view neither quite deserves a place at the very top of the table, for this reason: the top five mentioned earlier all distinguished themselves in a wide variety of musical forms, both within the fields of chamber and orchestral music. In fact all five produced works of the very highest standards in these varied mediums (which does not mean there are not gaps - for example, Schubert did not write any Piano Concertos, which is surprising). The magnum opi of Bruckner and Wagner, as great as they are - and indeed they are very great - are too narrow in scope.

Incidentally, if Bruckner and Wagner were to be included, that would make four Austrians and two Germans. Moreover, since Beethoven spent so much time in Vienna, he might count as an 'honorary Austrian' too. I suppose this could be the title of another thread - i.e. why are Austrians so good at classical music?

For me, the first five Mahler symphonies are wonderful.

Even once you become familiar with them, you hear new things every time you listen to them.

Bach is also fantastic. His choral work is tops and I never tire of the Brandenbergs.

Haydn also brings a smile to my face. The quartets and symphonies make great listening.

Vaughan Williams is worth persevering with too.

I do find, however, that when you listen to choral/vocal music on CD, it suffers greatly compared to the live version.

Many times I've heard orchestras live and if I closed my eyes there is often not a great deal to choose from in terms of sound quality from being at home in the living room.

However, if there is a chorus, live it brings a tingle to your spine. I never get that energy or feeling from a CD.

The da da da da bit of Mozart with a clarinet couldn't be his Clarinet Quintet, could it?

Is anybody looking forward to October when the City Hall reopens?

What do people think of attending that place to listen to classical music?

Lord C,
Many thanks for your kind words. I value your opinions very highly indeed, and enjoy posting with you immensely. Your case against Bruckner and Wagner being 'at the top table' is persuasive, and I defer to your greater knowledge. I am certain you will agree that 'Richie' and 'Tone' should be seated very near to the top table, where they may occasionally catch the eye of 'Wolfie', Luddo' and co. I like your description of Bruckner's panoramic soundscapes as 'oceanic'. Spot on! That is the very phrase with which to describe the composer's luxurious, spacious themes. How I love the 8th in particular! I fell in love with the symphony twenty years ago [when a magnificent, lithe and toned 23 year old], and still think the adagio is the finest ever written.

Dishwasher,
I agree with you, to an extent, regarding the first five Mahler symphonies. I have never been able to get to grips with the fifth, save for the famous slow movement. Why this is, I do not know. I seem to have a cognitive/emotional block there. I love the magnificent, huge second ['Resurrection'], especially the astonishingly beautiful choral elements. The third is wonderful too, with its chromatic experiments and fearsome threnodies [inspired by the 'dark side' of nature, the goat god Pan etc]. The fourth is one of the most charming 'pastoral' symphonies ever written in my view, and it contains an incredibly beautiful part for soprano voice. My copy is the Von Karajan, Berliner Philharmoniker recording of 1979, with Edith Mathis as soprano. She sounds jaw-droppingly exquisite here. The first symphony ['The Titan'] has never sounded organically and symphonically whole to me. It sounds top-heavy, bland in parts and a tad 'sugary' for my taste. It is hard to believe that the second, one of the finest symphonies ever written, is by the same hand.

I love Vaughan-Williams too. In my view, his 'pastoral' symphony and 'On Wenlock Edge' are serious contenders for the finest examples of English music [or, indeed, any music] of the 20th century. I cannot abide the first symphony , or 'Sea Symphony', save for the atmospheric 'On the beach at night' though. What a great pain in the sub-navel region that overblown, nautical codswallop is. That is his only 'poor' offering though, in my view. The rest is wonderful, and one can discern the influence of Ravel in the modal elements of the symphonies, and string quartets.

Re the City Hall, as an ex-pat [Lancashire], I don't get as many chances to attend as you might. When I have attended in the past, I have always been struck by the very poor acoustics. Would you agree here?

Originally posted by timo
Lord C,

Re the City Hall, as an ex-pat [Lancashire], I don't get as many chances to attend as you might. When I have attended in the past, I have always been struck by the very poor acoustics. Would you agree here?

I have played at the Sheffield city hall a few times.
You need a full house to absorb the sound slightly.
A lot of the sound seems to get lost in the top window of the "Oval" hall.

Viking,
I can believe that. I once went to see Robert Plant there [ we are talking late 80s], and he grumbled about it to the audience. The sound seemed to be bouncing all over the place, and back at him and his band. I can imagine it is still awful.

timo

I used to have a few problems with Mahler's fifth until I discovered Leonard Bernstein's version with the Wiener Philharmoniker.

It's absolutely explosive. The clarity, depth and soundstage are incredible. Wonderful, a roller-coaster ride from start to finish. I cannot recommend it enough.

Overall, though, I find that Rafael Kubelic does the best versions of Mahler's symphonies. One Christmas when I had some spare cash I treated myself to the remastered boxed set.

It was a tad expensive, but I know it will bring me joy for the rest of my life.

The stuff my Vaugham Williams I have is by Richard Hickox, I think, and again the performances and the quality of the recordings are out of this world.

The acoustics at the City Hall. Hmmm.

I've always found them flat and uninspiring, especially for classical music.

It was built in the 1930s when, perhaps, fine-tuning the acoustics of the hall didn't appear too high up the agenda.

The important thing was actually having the hall itself, and the acoustics were not considered an issue, if you catch my drift.

When the restoration is complete, let's hope that particular problem had been addressed and sorted.

I've been to many rock gigs there and it's amazing how many performers make reference to the oval window at the top.

Originally posted by timo
Viking,
I can believe that. I once went to see Robert Plant there [ we are talking late 80s], and he grumbled about it to the audience. The sound seemed to be bouncing all over the place, and back at him and his band. I can imagine it is still awful.

I played in a Brass band, thats what the difference might be.
Never noticed bad sound though.

Cheers dishwasher and Viking.

Lord C
You mention (early on on the thread) the Lindsays. I understand that Robin Ireland has released a CD of Bach transcriptions played on the Amati. have you come across this yet?
Google: Robin Ireland, bach for details

Originally posted by Hopman
Lord C
You mention (early on on the thread) the Lindsays. I understand that Robin Ireland has released a CD of Bach transcriptions played on the Amati. have you come across this yet?
Google: Robin Ireland, bach for details

Hopman,

Thank you very much for this. I will put it on my list of music I must listen to soon. I have the highest regard for Robin's playing, as I do for all of the Lindsays. What enormous pleasure have they given to Sheffield concertgoers over the years.

LC

Lord C,
Yes, the Lindsays are probably Britain's premier Quartet. Their boxed set of your favourite Beethoven 'Late Quartets' won the Gramaphone award in 1984, if I recall correctly. They are particularly impressive, in my view, when tackling Haydn as they demonstrated in the 'Genius of Haydn' festival a few years ago.

The Lindsays do marvellous justice to Mozart too. However, I have never heard a better version of, what is to me, the very cream of Mozart's catalogue, K464 [ 'the Drum' Quartet] than the one by the Saloman Quartet, on Hyperion in the mid-80s. The Saloman Quartet perform the definitive version of Mozart's very finest, and I cannot see it ever being bettered. In all honesty, if I had to choose a final piece of music, it would be the Andante, with its luxurious invention and matchless elegance, played with such panache by Micaela Comberti, Simon Standage etc. I have never heard anything finer. Sublime.

Star Sparkle:

East European - dramatic

Kilar - "Exodus"


(more details will follow soon)

Originally posted by timo
Lord C,
Yes, the Lindsays are probably Britain's premier Quartet. Their boxed set of your favourite Beethoven 'Late Quartets' won the Gramaphone award in 1984, if I recall correctly. They are particularly impressive, in my view, when tackling Haydn as they demonstrated in the 'Genius of Haydn' festival a few years ago.

The Lindsays do marvellous justice to Mozart too. However, I have never heard a better version of, what is to me, the very cream of Mozart's catalogue, K464 [ 'the Drum' Quartet] than the one by the Saloman Quartet, on Hyperion in the mid-80s. The Saloman Quartet perform the definitive version of Mozart's very finest, and I cannot see it ever being bettered. In all honesty, if I had to choose a final piece of music, it would be the Andante, with its luxurious invention and matchless elegance, played with such panache by Micaela Comberti, Simon Standage etc. I have never heard anything finer. Sublime.

Excellent choices there Timo, as usual. The Lindsays live performances of Beethoven and Haydn have been magnificent too. They have also served Sheffield concertgoers well in other ways, for example by bringing many fine artists (both new and established) to Sheffield for their regular concerts. They will be missed. As for Beethoven's quartets, we are really spoiled for choice. Every SQ seems to want to have a try at them at some point. I have collected a lot of different versions over the years, but I always return to the Quartetto Italiano's versions, perhaps because I first discovered the wonder of these quartets through them and they have become like old friends. I agree with you about the Saloman's versions of Mozart. As for Haydn, again there are so many fine performances of his (many) wonderful quartets. I don't think you can go far wrong though with the Kodaly Quartet's complete recordings of the Haydn quartets on the Naxos label, which are marvellous value as well.

More about Kilar's "Exodus".

I suppose most people, on seeing the name "Exodus" would immediately think of the biblical connection, and I am sure the composer had this in mind. However he was not thinking of the Israelites under the Egyptian Yoke but event closer to home.

Kilar is a Polish composer and at the time the work was written, the country was under martial law. The piece attained great popularity and the Polish people recognised the hidden agenda.

So, how to describe it? A slow, steady opening played very quietly. As the work progresses the intensity increase ( and the volume!) think of a subversive Ravel's Bolero, and you get some idea.

So, if you want something dramatic, this should fit the bill.

Lord C,
You are absolutely correct re the good value of the Naxos recordings of Haydn Quartets by the Hungarian Kodalys. It is a fool who turns his/her nose up at music of this very high quality, currently retailing at under a fiver in most shops. I have one of their recordings of Beethoven's Quartet op.132, and very good it is too. Naxos are a marvellous label , in my view, and have done much to make good music accessible and affordable for many. Most people can afford to take a gamble with a fiver, and try something they have not previously encountered. More power to the collective elbow of Naxos!

Goin out to buy that today !!

Poppins,
I don't know how much they retail for in the USA, but Naxos label releases are always cheap, so you should get a bargain. The label uses a lot of less well known orchestras and performers, and they have built up a tremendous reputation for quality and good value. Good listening!

Originally posted by timo
Lord C,
You are absolutely correct re the good value of the Naxos recordings of Haydn Quartets by the Hungarian Kodalys. It is a fool who turns his/her nose up at music of this very high quality, currently retailing at under a fiver in most shops. I have one of their recordings of Beethoven's Quartet op.132, and very good it is too. Naxos are a marvellous label , in my view, and have done much to make good music accessible and affordable for many. Most people can afford to take a gamble with a fiver, and try something they have not previously encountered. More power to the collective elbow of Naxos!

Timo,

The Eder Quartet's recordings of Mozart's string quartets and quintets are also very fine and are also available on the Naxos label.

Cheers, Lord C. I've posted some comments you might appreciate on your Beethoven thread, by the way.

Elgar regarded the symphony without a programme as the highest form of art bar none. What do you think about that? Personally, I am a great lover of symphonies, and rate Elgar's two [the third is only a fragment, despite the efforts of well-meaning but misguided individuals] very highly indeed. I love the adagio in the first, which must rank as one of the finest ever written, and 'the great beautiful tune' which opens the symphony. I love too the symphonies of Bruckner, Beethoven, Sibelius, Mahler etc. However, sometimes all that 'colour' is too much, and the intimacy of chamber music is required. I am not sure about art per se, but in terms of Classical musical expression, surely chamber music, and the string quartet in particular, is the highest form of artistic creation? It is here that the intellectually-rigorous, focused and highly complex dialogue and analysis take place, rendered all the more effective by the 'restricted palette' of violins, viola and cellos.

Originally posted by timo
and the string quartet in particular, is the highest form of artistic creation? It is here that the intellectually-rigorous, focused and highly complex dialogue and analysis take place, rendered all the more effective by the 'restricted palette' of violins, viola and cellos.

Au contraire, Timo. I once saw four tramps playing outside the Bull Ring shopping centre in Birmingham. One was wheezing into, and out of, a mouth organ. Another held a broom handle with beer bottle tops nailed onto it. Tramp three carried out the 'bass duties' blowing across one of those home brew flask thingies. The fourth gentleman of the road was standing some distance away from the others. He was shaking a tambourine - rather pointlessly, as all it's bells had fallen off. He was clearly being shunned by the others. It seems a shame, doesn't it, that even among tramps the class system reigns supreme. They managed to conjure between them a trance-like, monotonic form which moved between 4/4, 5/4 and, occasionally 27/4 with Brontosaurus-like grace. I stood, intoxicated (they performed, intoxicated) for what seemed like a minute. Then I bought a corned beef pastie. And some crisps. Then I went home.

What you witnessed , Lord Snooty, was actually a rare performance of David Toop's 'The Divination of the Bowhead Whale' by Wolverhampton and District Drone Ensemble. They are on record as having covered Stockhausen's 'Stimmung' [a piece for voices and magnetic tape, which they modified to include echoed flatulence and profanities ] outside 'Bernard's Mini-market' in King's Norton. Other rare performances include a beery attempt at low octave, traditional Mongolian throat-drones [which also included a fight and some spectacular projectile vomiting] near the bus-stop, outside Spar in Solihull, and a two hour-long 'ambient sound environment' outside Booze Buster in Handsworth, for which they were arrested.

When interviewed by Wire magazine, 'Just a trampy old bunch of boozy ****s' was their frank self-appraisal.

I have been working on my first symphony a long and thankless task you must agree. Miniminch’s 1st symphony I have taken advice from Walter Durand, a minimalist composer and instrument maker from Berlin. Although, as some of you are aware, I am a difficult man to work with I intend to blend a matrix of colours and rhythms, in which every element is audibly generated by a lowly beggar. Sometimes a simple drone hovers in the middle distance; or the tramp becomes part of a choir of heady, sensual harmonies. Occasionally a burst of vocal expletives flits about the singer's head like a cloud of butterflies. Nothing has been committed to manuscript as yet but I can inform you all that it will involve a G at some point.

Miniminch,
You are proceeding cautiously with your First Symphony, as did Brahms. I think this wise, since there will be inevitable comparisons with the great composers. No doubt, in time, your name will fit neatly and naturally next to Beethoven, Mozart and Bach in the canon of Western greatness. We shall all be seen as the greater fools then, for cruelly mocking you in the past. I shall have to bear much of the burden of shame here. 'You never listened to him!' angry voices will bellow. 'Mini was divine!' will be the cry of your velvet-suited supporters.

Yes, I can see it now... a boxed set of Miniminch's Symphonies, The Lindsay Quartet playing Miniminch's Late Quartets, fame and adulation forever associated with your name...

Originally posted by timo
Miniminch,
You are proceeding cautiously with your First Symphony, as did Brahms. I think this wise, since there will be inevitable comparisons with the great composers. No doubt, in time, your name will fit neatly and naturally next to Beethoven, Mozart and Bach in the canon of Western greatness. We shall all be seen as the greater fools then, for cruelly mocking you in the past. I shall have to bear much of the burden of shame here. 'You never listened to him!' angry voices will bellow. 'Mini was divine!' will be the cry of your velvet-suited supporters.

Yes, I can see it now... a boxed set of Miniminch's Symphonies, The Lindsay Quartet playing Miniminch's Late Quartets, fame and adulation forever associated with your name... Thanks Timo bygones and all that:thumbsup:

Miniminch,
It is a pleasure, sir. Actually, I've always known that you are a highly-intelligent cove underneath it all. A winking 'smiley' from your good self is strangely touching, given our scraps. I would return one if I wasn't such a Luddite [honestly can't work out how to do them]. All the best to you.

Originally posted by timo
Cheers, Lord C. I've posted some comments you might appreciate on your Beethoven thread, by the way.

Elgar regarded the symphony without a programme as the highest form of art bar none. What do you think about that? Personally, I am a great lover of symphonies, and rate Elgar's two [the third is only a fragment, despite the efforts of well-meaning but misguided individuals] very highly indeed. I love the adagio in the first, which must rank as one of the finest ever written, and 'the great beautiful tune' which opens the symphony. I love too the symphonies of Bruckner, Beethoven, Sibelius, Mahler etc. However, sometimes all that 'colour' is too much, and the intimacy of chamber music is required. I am not sure about art per se, but in terms of Classical musical expression, surely chamber music, and the string quartet in particular, is the highest form of artistic creation? It is here that the intellectually-rigorous, focused and highly complex dialogue and analysis take place, rendered all the more effective by the 'restricted palette' of violins, viola and cellos.

Hi Timo,

The surprising thing is that Elgar has not been mentioned on this thread before (as far as I can remember) as he is surely one of the very greatest of English composers - probably the greatest since Purcell. I love Elgar's orchestral works and I have even been known to traipse his beloved Malvern hills with a CD player, listening to the Enigma Variations and to his other works. A paradox is that although there is something particularly English about Elgar's music, in other ways it transcends a particular time or place and is a music for all humanity.

As for the string quartet as a musical form, I couldn't agree more. Its actually my favourite type of music. Someone once described it as four civilised people having an animated conversation in a room, sometimes speaking singly, sometime in twos or threes and sometimes altogether, sometimes conversing about the most profound subjects, sometimes arguing and sometimes engaging in banter and laughter. The restricted palette you mention nevertheless manages to be capable of producing an amazing array of colours and patterns in sound. Its no wonder that four of the five greatest composers we mentioned earlier were all masters of the string quartet (the exception being Bach, and I am sure he would have been a master of the form too, had it been 'invented' in his day. Some of the Brandenbergs for example have a quartetish type quality about them.

As for quartet writing since the classical era (ending around 1830 or thereabouts), well, there are very few composers whose works in this medium have managed to achieve anything like the popularity of those of Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven or Schubert. I do greatly admire some of these. For example Mendelssohn, Dvorak, Smetana, Debussy, Ravel, Bartok, Shostakovich and Carter all produced fine quartets. In my opinion, those of Bartok (particularly his second) would rank along side those of the classical masters as being among the very finest in this medium.

Can either of you two actually play any classical music? (I mean play it yourselves, not on a record player). I can play simpler pieces by Mozart and Schumman (on the piano) and I have to say, it totally transforms one's perception and understanding of the classical form. It's a bit like the difference between surfing the net for filth to accompany a spot of onanism, and consorting with actual young ladies in real life. I hope you have studied a classical instrument, at least up to Grade 5; it would give you such a profound insight without removing any of the magic and mystery. In fact, paradoxically perhaps, the magic and mystery doubles, once one knows something of the theory and mechanics of classical composition, like what one does. It's a bit like the difference between leafing though jazz mags with the aim of reaching a little self-satisfaction, and enjoying a threesome with twin nymphomaniacs in real life. In fact, make that a quartet.

Snooty

My dear Lord Snooty,
Firstly, as representatives of the 'beautiful people', neither I nor Lord Chaverley are familiar with 'jazz mags', 'internet filth' nor onanism as recreation.

Regarding classical training, I cannot speak for his Lordship, but I have received a rudimentary classical training in piano from the late Colin Whitely. Unfortunately, I never progressed to take examinations in the subject.

However, I have some experience of musical creation and performance. In my time, I have played saxophone, percussion and keyboards/tapes in an 'experimental' group that recorded three times, did two John Peel Sessions, and played alongside bands such as James, Cabaret Voltaire and A Certain Ratio in the mid to late 80s. I will supply the name via pm if you are interested. Additionally, I have experience of playing/performing freely improvised, electro-acoustic music with Martin Archer, now one of Britain's foremost 'free jazz' [not the sort you refer to] saxophonists.

I can read music up to a point, but never used conventional notation in my brief period as a musician. Nor do I think it absolutely essential for a full appreciation of classical music, or any other kind. I value traditional musical accomplishment and skill, and acknowledge that it is essential for anyone even thinking about playing classical music. However, as I have said before, there are many very original and creative musicians out there who cannot read music. Had they undergone a rigorous, academic training, their idiosyncratic and often beautiful styles would have been ironed out as 'wrong'. Brian Eno uses clusters of keyboard notes which are technically 'wrong', Evan Parker's saxophone technique [using oriental 'circular breathing'], and Jon Hassell's trumpet style owe little to conventional Western musical traditions and training, but they are both shining examples of original, beautiful 'new' music.

If the 'magic doubles' for you, then I respect your view and experience. You obviously have a more advanced level of 'technical' musicianship than I do. For example, I wouldn't attempt anything by Mozart or Schumann. I can make the alto saxophone sound rather like a Tibetan thigh-bone trumpet, though. At least that is something...

Regards.

Originally posted by timo
My dear Lord Snooty,
Firstly, as representatives of the 'beautiful people', neither I nor Lord Chaverley are familiar with 'jazz mags', 'internet filth' nor onanism as recreation.



What about the twin nymphomaniacs?

And I was only messing about, as usual. I can play some Mozart, but the pieces in question are K2 and K5 (K1 being 'Twinkle Twinkle, Little Star', probably). What instrument do you play now, by the way? I have played guitar for years before starting piano, and never read a note during that time. I wasn't playing classical, though. Just jazz and blues. In fact, whenever I see blues music written down conventionally, I always think it looks ridiculous. Jelly Roll definately didn't need it. I have known people who think they can 'improvise', but play the same break every time, because they're reading it! It helps to know a few scales, but generally, if you're not attempting classical or 'old fashioned' jazz (ie not free-form), it's probably as well to play by ear and concentrate on 'feel' and swing. In other words, I am agreeing with you. I was just being silly - I can't help it...............

Lord Snooty,
Don't worry about it, old bean. There is plenty of room on the forum for japes and tomfoolery. It wouldn't do to take ourselves too seriously. We should always share the absurdities of life!

Re instruments, to be honest, I have not played my saxophone for years, or keyboards, or percussion for that matter. I lost interest, and prefer to concentrate on publishing in social science books and journals. The writer in me has taken over from the musician, so to speak. I dare say that, eventually, I will play music again. My wife is keen to buy a piano. If we go ahead, it would be impossible to resist playing around on it. No doubt I might have a bash at creating a few Satie and Eno-inspired 'mood pieces'. Maybe Lord C has secret plans for a meisterwerk?

Originally posted by timo
Lord Snooty,
Don't worry about it, old bean. There is plenty of room on the forum for japes and tomfoolery. It wouldn't do to take ourselves too seriously. We should always share the absurdities of life!

Re instruments, to be honest, I have not played my saxophone for years, or keyboards, or percussion for that matter. I lost interest, and prefer to concentrate on publishing in social science books and journals. The writer in me has taken over from the musician, so to speak. I dare say that, eventually, I will play music again. My wife is keen to buy a piano. If we go ahead, it would be impossible to resist playing around on it. No doubt I might have a bash at creating a few Satie and Eno-inspired 'mood pieces'. Maybe Lord C has secret plans for a meisterwerk?

Hi Timo,

And if the quality of what you produce on here is anything to go by, the writer in you has the power to achieve great things - why not have a go at a comic novel or something like that?.

Originally posted by timo
My wife is keen to buy a piano.

I bought one last year timo (Timo?). I spent a long time choosing and eventually got one I liked a lot.........I think I need another one now, though! I looked all over Ebay/Shops/New/Secondhand/Digital (don't go there) etc... and can advise if required. I also discovered ways and means of getting a perfectly playable and 'half decent' piano for virtually nothing (not through crime or Ebay). The one thing I would definately say is BUY A PIANO. Every home should have one. In fact, if I lived on a canal barge, I'd still have one. A proper one. Or a nice Fender Rhodes or Wurly - not a digital, they are poo unless you have £12,000 to throw away (poo compared to an acoustic piano, I mean).

My mum says I have to come off the computer now.

Snooty

Lord C,
That is very kind of you, old fruit. I have thought about that many times. At the moment, career-wise I have to concentrate on academic stuff, and will be doing just that after this posting. However, it might be a nice idea to try within the next few years. Maybe we could collaborate?! I wonder if, between us, we could not write a corker. Rope Lord Snooty in as well, and maybe Nick2 [brilliant at one-liners], and you have Sheffield Forum's satire team...

It can't be much longer before we hear just what music will be part of next season's concerts at the refurbished City Hall. Although much of the programme is still under wraps, a few titbits have leaked out.
Some Schoenberg is included - I suspect that this will be Verklaerte Nacht - Transfigured Night. Has anyone else any news on this topic?

Yes, there are certain pieces that I quite like - I had a 120 minute tape laying around somewhere, with all the pieces I liked - however, along with the tape box, it got mislaid - I spent hours with my JVC hi-fi editing, and pasting pieces, so that it was a tape choc-a-bloc full of only what I liked.
Sortly after, the hi-fi blew up - maybe the hi-fi didn't like classical music - :loopy:.

Seriously, I'll have to borrow the CDs from people and pop it onto another tape.

:)

Originally posted by amhudson119
Yes, there are certain pieces that I quite like - I had a 120 minute tape laying around somewhere, with all the pieces I liked - however, along with the tape box, it got mislaid - I spent hours with my JVC hi-fi editing, and pasting pieces, so that it was a tape choc-a-bloc full of only what I liked.
Sortly after, the hi-fi blew up - maybe the hi-fi didn't like classical music - :loopy:.

Seriously, I'll have to borrow the CDs from people and pop it onto another tape.

:)

That made me laugh out loud!!! That is just my kind of luck.

Originally posted by Hopman
It can't be much longer before we hear just what music will be part of next season's concerts at the refurbished City Hall. Although much of the programme is still under wraps, a few titbits have leaked out.
Some Schoenberg is included - I suspect that this will be Verklaerte Nacht - Transfigured Night. Has anyone else any news on this topic?

Hi Hopman,

Not too much Schoenberg I hope. I have just been listening to his Serenade (op 24) and his Septet-Suite (op 29) and this has only confirmed my opinion that if you want to empty the concert halls, play lots of Schoenberg. I think you are probably right that they will go for Verklaerte Nacht, as this is one of the very few pieces by S. which is both accessible and worth listening too, regardless of its baggage. Schoenberg also did an interesting version of Beethoven's Grosse Fugue, but most of his other output is just awful. In my opinion, he was instrumental in leading classical music composition up a dead end for decades. Thank goodness many contemporary composers are now writing stuff that people want to listen to. Schoenberg was apparently an extremely arrogant person and the thought occured to me that, once he realised he could never write music of the standard of his heroes, Beethoven and Brahms, he decided to become a destructive force and smash the place up. Incidentally, S. was an accomplished painter. If I am asked if I like Schoenberg, I will say I prefer his paintings.

Just stumbled across this thread and not inclined to read all 7 pages right now, so I'll chip in with my 2p worth... I don't know about Classical music but I know what I like. Chiefly a bit of Stravinsky, a lot of Debussy, some Bartok here and there, Pärt, some electro-accoustic stuff (particularly Ilhan Mimaroglu and Priscilla and Barton McClean), and more. There's very little from before 1900 which I would actually say I like, although there's a lot that I respect and can quite happily listen to.

Timo, I'd be fascinated to know more about your career as an experimental musician.

Dan,
I was involved in 'experimental' music from around 1979 to 1990. I started an electro-acoustic ensemble, in reality a 'noise band' that preceded Merzbow by two decades called The Naked Pygmy Voles [honestly!] around 1979. We supported Sheffield bands like ClockDVA etc, and people like Cabaret Voltaire, Throbbing Gristle, and the composer, Trevor Wishart were 'fans'. I don't want to give my identity away on here [though some know it], but the line-up included Martin Archer, who is now one of the top Saxophonists in 'free' music on this planet. Our instrumentation included Saxes, synthesisers, 'primitive' electronics, tapes/loops, double bass, percussives, 'prepared' guitars and [occasionally] voice. I also played 'freely improvised' music with Paul Wells, Charlie Collins etc.

Later, I joined Workforce, a Sheffield-based 'Industrial Funk/experimental' band, which included Rod Leigh formerly superb guitarist with I'm So Hollow. We were helped very much by Cabaret Voltaire, especially Richard Kirk, who produced one of our singles. We recorded three times, did two sessions for John Peel's Radio One Show, and supported bands such as James at venues like the ICA in London [1986].

After the group disbanded [around 1988], I did two solo 'performances' using guitar and tape loops, but rapidly lost interest in making music. Nowadays, I am focusing on academic publications in social science. Speaking of which, I shall have to say, 'ta ra', and get back to some research....

I've heard of Workforce, don't remember in what context though (actually, I've a feeling I may once have owned a single, which I found in a charity shop).

For my sins, my own brushes with "experimental" music included a ten year stint in the London Musicians' Collective, although most of my free-improv music making was restricted to a friend's kitchen, my musical excursions in public were always somewhat more mainstream (http://www.sumption.org/cathyray/). I do remember attending various workshops though: Jim Dvorak protesting at the LMC's use of the word "experimental" ("some of these guys have been doing what they're doing for 30 years now, what the hell is experimental about that?") and all the other attendees at a Keith Rowe workshop looking at me in a strange way when I asked "has anybody got a guitar tuner"?

I've never quite connected with "noise bands" though (with the sole exception of Last Exit, who are sublime), despite having spent probably far too much time trying.

Originally posted by timo
Speaking of which, I shall have to say, 'ta ra', and get back to some research....
Oops, at first I misread that as "I shall have to say 'sun ra'". Understandable I guess, given the context.

Dan,
Interesting post, old fruit. Had I been in London in the 80s, I would definately have gone to lmc workshops, gigs etc. They were very, very cliquey affairs re who was allowed to play, I understand. Jim Dvorak is right too; the likes of Derek Bailey have been doing the same old 'lateral thinking' via guitar for Donkey's years. There is nothing remotely 'new' or 'experimental' about it. In fact, much freely-improvised music [of the British variety] sounds rather quaint and dated these days. Did you really ask about guitar tuners at a Keith Rowe workshop?! That takes bottle, and I'm sure all the types into AMM, Company etc were outraged. Good for you!

In my experience, there is snobbery and stratification just as much in 'experimental' circles as elsewhere. The lmc types seemed to be largely drawn from the 'free jazz' world, and appeared to be highly suspicious of anyone who had not paid their dues in the obscure, minimal audience world of free improvisation. Hence Steve Beresford's antipathy towards the likes of Throbbing Gristle and Cabaret Voltaire, who largely rose to 'fame' [infamy?'] post-punk. I had a foot in both worlds, but very much preferred the Peel Sessions, and 'proper' venues experience I gained in Workforce. Plus, although 'free' playing can be immense fun, for me, there is nothing quite like playing a tight, carefully- structured piece in a group context. That is where I, personally, gained the most satisfaction.

Timo,
My main involvement with the LMC was in the early 90s, when it was going through something of a revival. Yes, there was a cliquey feel to things, always the usual suspects playing (and watching) at gigs, but I think (like most cliques) it was more an illusion of closedness, anyone who'd had the bottle to push themselves forwards would have been able to get a slot. Actually, it was generally the more serious muso males (the likes of Steve Beresford) who exuded an air of exclusivity, while most of the women on the scene, in particular Maggie Nicols, were very welcoming to newcomers: Maggie encouraged me at the two LMC Gatherings I played at, although I was always too shy to raise my volume to the point where anyone could actually hear me.

As for playing tight, carefully structured pieces: yes, I get a lot of satisfaction from that, but my favourite moments are at the cusp of total freedom and total structure, like the points where the Peter Brötzmann Octet's joyfully random cacophony suddenly shift into a unison rendition of the theme from Machine Gun. Mmm.

(Sorry, I almost had a Fast Show "jazz... niiice" moment there)

And yes, I really did ask for a guitar tuner at a Keith Rowe workshop, although more out of ignorance than rebellion: it was the first LMC event I'd ever been to, I wasn't quite sure what to expect but I did know that my guitar was in a right state (actually, it ended the workshop in much more of a state: I hammered on the pickup until it dropped out and then found that I could make a much nicer noise by playing the string with the pickup which was still dangling by a wire, then removing the magnets and making another racket with them).

At around the same time, I went to Company week. I was mainly there to see John Zorn, but the absolute highlight of the evening was when Derek Bailey and Buckethead performed a piece of Kabuki (Buckethead had the face-mask, Derek had the kimono): put their guitars down on the floor and stalked one-another around the stage robot-fashion for 15-minutes, until the feedback from the abandoned guitars leapt out of the speakers and actually started playing from somewhere inside my ears.

Anyway, back to classical music: I find that I cry every time I hear Debussy's Clair de Lune, although I'm never sure whether it's making me happy or sad. Does anyone else get that?

Dan,
As usual, an excellent and very interesting posting from your good self. The Bailey Kabuki 'happening' sounds hilarious.

Re the effect of Debussy's Clair de Lune; yes, the piece has, on occasion, had the same effect upon me. I understand what you are saying here. Certain pieces by Satie have had the same effect too. Mind you, anyone who has sat through a four hour performance of Vexations would end up in tears! There is something about quiet, reflective piano music which seems to touch the soul. My friend Paul Wells [an experimental musician] put it best. He said that he wasinclined to believe in the existence of a soul, because he actually felt 'something' being uplifted when listening to good music. I realise how 'precious' that might sound to cynics, but I think Paul has a point, and I can relate to it. One thing that strikes me about my reaction to Clair de Lune, when I reflect upon it now, is that I tend to associate the piece with ideas around the fragility of human happiness. The piece seems to be 'saying' [at least to me], that human beings have less control over their lives than they wish to think, and structure often serves to constrain agency. In simple terms, we and our happiness are hostages to fate.

Spot on timo!

I often think of Clair de Lune as a record of a life in miniature, it unfolds from birth, gains confidence, progresses through a series of intense emotional highs and lows before finally curling up and dying, slightly sad at leaving this life behind and yet at the same time happy to have experienced so much in such a short time. To me it's one of the most perfect pieces of music ever. I was rather annoyed to hear an orchestral version backing the recent Chanel advert with Nicole Kidman, although it still moved me a little (there exists an orchestration by Satie, but I don't think this is it).

Yes, Satie can have a similar effect. I visited the Maison Satie in Honfleur a few years ago, which I think is where I got my love for French impressionistic piano music. The room where Gymnopedies #1 plays is haunting: light and airy, painted white, with a white grand piano in the centre, its keys are playing the Gymnopedie but there's nobody sitting at it except perhaps the ghost of Satie.

Re: music and human souls, I understand what you're saying but I'm afraid I have a knee-jerk reaction whenever I hear the word "soul". The best musician I ever played with once told me he knew there must be a god because of his response to the music of John Coltrane. Two months later, he was in a mental hospital with schizophrenia. That's not why I have the knee-jerk reaction, by the way, I'm just opposed to metaphysics in any form, but it does illustrate some of the dangers of that type of thinking. At about the same time, another member of the same band told me he had deduced with absolute certainty that Bob Marley was the reincarnation of Jesus Christ. It was a bloody excellent band, but unfortunately they were all nutty as fruitcakes except for me (and even that's debatable).

Dan,
Yes, I must admit that I have some doubts about metaphysical matters. As a matter of fact, I've just contributed to your 'Books that changed your life' thread, and offer Larkin's poem, 'Aubade', which suggests we travel towards oblivion rather than Afterlife, as an example. I like Paul Wells' point re the 'soul' very, very much and I want him to be 'right' here. However, I am aware, like yourself, that this life of genetic replication and blind, physical forces may be all we have. Mind you, I ruddy well hope not!

Originally posted by cobaltblue
That made me laugh out loud!!! That is just my kind of luck.

I found the TDK tape, and fired up the rarely used Denon deck, and have been fiddling with it on Roxio's editing suite, and have taken tape hiss out of it - it sound superb - pity the speakers aren't up to it!! : R


:)

Alex,
We'll organise a whip-round for the speakers! Denon decks are rather good. Mind you, most of the time I listen to Classical on the Technics midi-system in my office at home, or the portable Sony CD/Radio 'ghetto blaster' in my work office. The proper system made up of good gear, I rarely use. Strangely, I have never owned a personal hi-fi [we used to call them 'Walkmen'] either. I am perhaps the only person I know who calls a hi-fi system 'the stereo' too. How very quaint, you must be thinking?!

Originally posted by timo
Alex,
We'll organise a whip-round for the speakers! Denon decks are rather good. Mind you, most of the time I listen to Classical on the Technics midi-system in my office at home, or the portable Sony CD/Radio 'ghetto blaster' in my work office. The proper system made up of good gear, I rarely use. Strangely, I have never owned a personal hi-fi [we used to call them 'Walkmen'] either. I am perhaps the only person I know who calls a hi-fi system 'the stereo' too. How very quaint, you must be thinking?!

I used to have a Technics hi-fi, and unfortunately, it was very poor with acoustic music.

So, I invested in some separates - knocked down rather cheaply as some guy sold them in a pawn shop. So, I have a Sherwood AVR (the weakness in the seps.), a Denon tape deck - from a forum member on another site for free, a Marantz CD player (Welling pawn shop) and a set of Maudaunt-Short speakers (eBay), and last but not least - Richer Sounds' cabling - :suspect:.

No, I differenciate between the term "hi-fi" - good quality stuff, and "stereo" - cheap toot from Argos - usually plastic and silver.


Alex

I call my hi-fi "the stereo" too. Although I am the sort of chav who spends hundreds of quid on a separates system and then uses it to listen to 128kbps MP3s. And listens to it in "Matrix" mode rather than stereo (creates a bloody gorgeous noise on my somewhat unusual speaker set-up though).

Originally posted by DanSumption
I call my hi-fi "the stereo" too. Although I am the sort of chav who spends hundreds of quid on a separates system and then uses it to listen to 128kbps MP3s. And listens to it in "Matrix" mode rather than stereo (creates a bloody gorgeous noise on my somewhat unusual speaker set-up though).

See, you and I and timo, can tell that a poorly ripped CD on iTunes using 192Kbps encoding sounds awful.

Most of my CDs are original - only around 6 or 7 of my 150-strong collection are copies.

:)

All of the stuff I rip myself is done at 320 or 256kbps, but I've a lot of other stuff accumulated here, some of it at even lower bit-rates than 128.

I hardly ever listen to CDs nowadays, too much hassle especially now I have to climb on a table to put them in the CD player. I still buy quite a few, but I just stick them straight on the PC. I have Slimserver running on my PC downstairs in my office. Upstairs, well away from fan noise, I have my "stereo" where the MP3s are streamed to. My original Slimp3 blew up a couple of months back, so I just replaced it with a Squeezebox 2 (http://www.slimdevices.com/) - 20,000 songs all accesible via my remote, no scrabbling about trying to find CDs, no having to change disks every hour. Bliss.

Originally posted by DanSumption
All of the stuff I rip myself is done at 320 or 256kbps, but I've a lot of other stuff accumulated here, some of it at even lower bit-rates than 128.

I hardly ever listen to CDs nowadays, too much hassle especially now I have to climb on a table to put them in the CD player. I still buy quite a few, but I just stick them straight on the PC. I have Slimserver running on my PC downstairs in my office. Upstairs, well away from fan noise, I have my "stereo" where the MP3s are streamed to. My original Slimp3 blew up a couple of months back, so I just replaced it with a Squeezebox 2 (http://www.slimdevices.com/) - 20,000 songs all accesible via my remote, no scrabbling about trying to find CDs, no having to change disks every hour. Bliss.

Cool, I have iTunes for my computer, but I'd like a device, so I could maybe connect a box up, that operates iTunes, and then I can change with a remote...

Is it a Squeezebox I'm looking for?

Originally posted by amhudson119
Cool, I have iTunes for my computer, but I'd like a device, so I could maybe connect a box up, that operates iTunes, and then I can change with a remote...

Is it a Squeezebox I'm looking for?
Yup, I use iTunes on the computer and stream from there to the Squeezebox.

The Slimserver software is what powers Squeezebox - the box itself seems to just have a display unit, a DAC and audio outputs, so the whole interface & everything is updatable via the server software which runs on your PC. By default the server software just scans a directory on your hard disk for music, but there is an option "use iTunes library", which does exactly what it says on the tin - even means that all your iTunes playlists will be accessible from the Squeezebox (by default, Slimserver re-scans your iTunes library once a day for changes).

I have to say I'm hugely impressed by the server software: it's open-source, so anything users can think of to improve it usually gets stuck in before too long. I recently ran my first upgrade of the software in about 6 months, and was amazed at the huge range of extra options: all sorts of things from including the MP3 "composer" tags under the list of artists (very useful for classical music) to new plugins which let you run a news ticker or even play Tetris on your Squeezebox.

Yeah, I'm a believer :)

Originally posted by DanSumption
Yup, I use iTunes on the computer and stream from there to the Squeezebox.

The Slimserver software is what powers Squeezebox - the box itself seems to just have a display unit, a DAC and audio outputs, so the whole interface & everything is updatable via the server software which runs on your PC. By default the server software just scans a directory on your hard disk for music, but there is an option "use iTunes library", which does exactly what it says on the tin - even means that all your iTunes playlists will be accessible from the Squeezebox (by default, Slimserver re-scans your iTunes library once a day for changes).

I have to say I'm hugely impressed by the server software: it's open-source, so anything users can think of to improve it usually gets stuck in before too long. I recently ran my first upgrade of the software in about 6 months, and was amazed at the huge range of extra options: all sorts of things from including the MP3 "composer" tags under the list of artists (very useful for classical music) to new plugins which let you run a news ticker or even play Tetris on your Squeezebox.

Yeah, I'm a believer :)

How much doed this cool-sounding item cost? And would I need a wire to get the box from the computer to where my AV equipment is? Or is it wireless.

Cheers

I can't read through all 111 posts so it might already have been said but anyone who likes music can't say they don't like classical music! Nothings really new, most modern music will have been done before

Originally posted by amhudson119
How much doed this cool-sounding item cost? And would I need a wire to get the box from the computer to where my AV equipment is? Or is it wireless.
Wired & wireless versions available, about £150 & £200 respectively. Obviously wireless makes life somewhat easier & neater. I bought mine here (http://www.multitask-computing.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=3&products_id=225&osCsid=731f5cf0b0cb8456e294f1f1416b2bb6).

Originally posted by tulip
I can't read through all 111 posts so it might already have been said but anyone who likes music can't say they don't like classical music! Nothings really new, most modern music will have been done before
True(-ish) - I remember when I first decided to get into classical music (yes, it was almost that planned). I pulled out a CD at random from my Dad's smallish collection. It was called "The Rite of Spring" by Igor Stravinsky :) by the time I reached the kettle drums in the second part, I was thinking "bugger me, the Sex Pistols never sounded this rebellious!"

Originally posted by DanSumption
True(-ish) - I remember when I first decided to get into classical music (yes, it was almost that planned). I pulled out a CD at random from my Dad's smallish collection. It was called "The Rite of Spring" by Igor Stravinsky :) by the time I reached the kettle drums in the second part, I was thinking "bugger me, the Sex Pistols never sounded this rebellious!" I'm glad my dad didn't have a classical collection - it would have put me off for life. I never got the taste for Slim Whitman, he had loads of his albums :gag: Why only true(ish)? Just totally agree with me, it's good for my ego! (only joking, I have to say that because so many people on here seem to take everything I say as literal):rolleyes:

Originally posted by DanSumption
True(-ish) - I remember when I first decided to get into classical music (yes, it was almost that planned). I pulled out a CD at random from my Dad's smallish collection. It was called "The Rite of Spring" by Igor Stravinsky :) by the time I reached the kettle drums in the second part, I was thinking "bugger me, the Sex Pistols never sounded this rebellious!"

The Rite of Spring was an absolute sensation when it was first performed in Paris in 1913 - in fact it literally caused a riot in the theatre (not only because of the music, but also because of the ballet costumes and moves). I had a Stravinsky phase when I was in my teens (the Firebird and Petroushka are also very good) but in my opinion most of Stravinsky's best works were written in his early years. Am I right in thinking his repuation has been in something of a decline in recent years?

True-ish because there are a lot of (often unexpected) similarities between classical and other music, but untrue because I feel a qualitative difference between most classical music and more popular musics: it is often (Rite of Spring aside) a more intellectual music, something where you can get more out of it by listening carefully and hearing structural elements. Of course, many other types of music have that to a degree, but classical seems to be the purest form, whereas something like punk or techno is the purest form of thumping animal enjoyment, no analysis required just jump up & down in time with the music. (I love both, I should point out)

Stravinsky: I don't know about his reputation, I have certainly cooled a little in my attitude towards him, although I still love the early ballets. I have a particularly fine recording of the "original" four-handed piano version of Rite of Spring here. I believe Stravinsky & Debussy played this together for a group of friends about 6 months before the ballet caused such a fuss. I forget who performed the version I have here (a Turkish pianist, if I remember correctly), he performed both parts using the wonder of multi-track recording, and even added fifth & sixth hands for a few of the meatier parts. When I bought it, I didn't imagine that a piano version could have the impact of the full orchestration, but it's actually pretty damn punk rock!

Originally posted by DanSumption
True-ish because there are a lot of (often unexpected) similarities between classical and other music, but untrue because I feel a qualitative difference between most classical music and more popular musics: it is often (Rite of Spring aside) a more intellectual music, something where you can get more out of it by listening carefully and hearing structural elements. Of course, many other types of music have that to a degree, but classical seems to be the purest form, whereas something like punk or techno is the purest form of thumping animal enjoyment, no analysis required just jump up & down in time with the music. (I love both, I should point out)

Stravinsky: I don't know about his reputation, I have certainly cooled a little in my attitude towards him, although I still love the early ballets. I have a particularly fine recording of the "original" four-handed piano version of Rite of Spring here. I believe Stravinsky & Debussy played this together for a group of friends about 6 months before the ballet caused such a fuss. I forget who performed the version I have here (a Turkish pianist, if I remember correctly), he performed both parts using the wonder of multi-track recording, and even added fifth & sixth hands for a few of the meatier parts. When I bought it, I didn't imagine that a piano version could have the impact of the full orchestration, but it's actually pretty damn punk rock!

What people seem to remember the older Stravinsky for is not so much his music but for his witty comments on other composers. Just two of them:

with regard to John Cage's 4.33 (of silence) Stravinsky said that he looked forward to even longer compositions by Cage of the same type.

with regard to Vivaldi, he said that he didn't write umpteen orchestral works, he wrote the same orchestral work umpteen times (altohugh i think this is very unfair to Vivaldi)

Originally posted by DanSumption
Wired & wireless versions available, about £150 & £200 respectively. Obviously wireless makes life somewhat easier & neater. I bought mine here (http://www.multitask-computing.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=3&products_id=225&osCsid=731f5cf0b0cb8456e294f1f1416b2bb6).

I'll invest in one of these soon.

Cheers, :)

To return to the original thread.

In Sheffield we seem to be well endowed with amateur orchestras. I heard the Sheffield Philharmonic last weekend and was very impressed. It's not that long since they were performing down at Symphony Hall in Birmingham.

The Sheffield Symphony Orchestra are another group of very talented local musicians (They've a concert this weekend).

I see that the SPO are giving the world premiere of a commissioned work in their autumn programme. Word is that this is an approachable work lasting some 22 minutes.

In March we can look forward to Robin Ireland playing the Walton Viola concerto and next June they will perform the Elgar 1st Symphony.

Originally posted by Hopman
To return to the original thread.

In Sheffield we seem to be well endowed with amateur orchestras. I heard the Sheffield Philharmonic last weekend and was very impressed. It's not that long since they were performing down at Symphony Hall in Birmingham.

The Sheffield Symphony Orchestra are another group of very talented local musicians (They've a concert this weekend).

I see that the SPO are giving the world premiere of a commissioned work in their autumn programme. Word is that this is an approachable work lasting some 22 minutes.

In March we can look forward to Robin Ireland playing the Walton Viola concerto and next June they will perform the Elgar 1st Symphony.

Interesting post, Hopman.

I must say I have never been fond of Walton's music. It has been played frequently on radio 3 over the years, but it leaves me cold. I can't quite put my finger on it, but there seems to be something missing in it. Perhaps Ireland's playing will convince me - if he can't do it, no one can

Do you know, Lord C, I feel exactly the same about Walton. I just can't get to grips with it. Like your good self, I feel as if there should be more there.

The only Walton I'm really familiar with is Façade, which sounded rather fun when I heard it on Radio 3, so I went out and bought the CD. Bad move. Especially as my version had Edith Sitwell reciting, at least the woman on the Radio 3 version sounded half-decent.

Originally posted by LordChaverly
I must say I have never been fond of Walton's music. It has been played frequently on radio 3 over the years, but it leaves me cold. I can't quite put my finger on it, but there seems to be something missing in it. Perhaps Ireland's playing will convince me - if he can't do it, no one can

How does Walton's music compare to the artistic gems you have composed? Is there anything missing in your music, or is it 'full'? Do tell us, oh great steaming one...

Originally posted by DanSumption
The only Walton I'm really familiar with is Façade, which sounded rather fun when I heard it on Radio 3, so I went out and bought the CD. Bad move. Especially as my version had Edith Sitwell reciting, at least the woman on the Radio 3 version sounded half-decent.

There is actually a Sheffield-ish connection to this. When he was a young, aspiring composer, Walton was taken in and supported financially by the Sitwell family and lived with them at Renishaw Hall. This was before the days of Arts Council grants, so budding artists such as Walton looked for patrons amongst the rich elites.

He supplied the music for Facade, an attempt at avant garde public poetry by Sitwell. It was lampooned and otherwise ridiculed by Noel Coward at the time.

There is a marvellous book by John Pearson called Facades, about life among the Sitwells (Edith, Osbert and Sacheverell) at Renishaw Hall.

It's currently a-twenty-five-to-twelve, and currently have Largo on (quitely) on the hi-fi in my bedroom.

:)

:) I went to bed listening to Bartok's third string quartet the other night. I thought that when my wife got back from the pub, she would say "what's this rubbish" and demand that I took it off. She didn't. I actually fell asleep to it, and woke up a couple of hours later, Bartok still playing (by this time we'd been through all the string quartets and were onto, I think, Bluebeard's Castle)

Originally posted by DanSumption
:) I went to bed listening to Bartok's third string quartet the other night. I thought that when my wife got back from the pub, she would say "what's this rubbish" and demand that I took it off. She didn't. I actually fell asleep to it, and woke up a couple of hours later, Bartok still playing (by this time we'd been through all the string quartets and were onto, I think, Bluebeard's Castle)

Whose version? I think the Emerson's versions are hard to beat. My favourite is the second.

I dunno (not sure where I put the original CDs), I'm not too hot on versions, although I do realise they can make a huge differerence, this one was just a double-CD of all 6 quartets which I picked up cheap a few years ago. I used to have another version on tape which, now I think of it, was better.

My favourite is still the 4th.

I bought a CD in HMV today, it's a compilation of "the best classics ever".

Four discs worth, and nigh on an hour on each disc - a bargain at #16.99.


:)

Hi there

Returning to the forum after a little abscense and saw this thread.


Over the passed month or so, my tastes have changed dramatically. Where as i used to listen to a little classical, mostly soundtrack music. I know find i'm listening to Bach, Beethoven and Mozart.

I think my favourite so far, is Bach's violin concerto. Something about the music, it's very soothing, yet full of energy.

I'm a little annoyed sometimes, as i feel there's always a huge void between myself and other more veteren listeners.

While i realise knowing all the names and terms doesn't damage my enjoyment of the music. I would still like to understand it.

Brillent thread by the way

Originally posted by amhudson119
I bought a CD in HMV today, it's a compilation of "the best classics ever".

Four discs worth, and nigh on an hour on each disc - a bargain at #16.99.


:)

I find the Classic FM series are the best as they mix the well-known composers with the best of the current crop. They usually release a box set, 3 or 4 CDs, just before Christmas and at a decent price, around £15 IIRC.

Look for titles such as Time to Relax. Also, the Classic FM logo is obvious. I actually buy mine from the supermarket.

Great to listen to at home or in the car, plus you get all the info on the track and composer inside the box.

Raptornet,
I would not worry too much about the 'huge void' between your knowledge [as you perceive it] and that of 'veteran listeners'. It takes a great deal of time to physically listen to the vast amounts of classical music available, not to mention the cost of buying cds etc. You might have something far more interesting to say about a piece 'new' to you than, for example, some 'veteran' who has been familiar with the work for twenty or so years. Your views are as valid as anyone elses's.

Welcome back to the forum. You show good taste, in my view, re your appreciation of Bach. Bach's music reaches some astonishing emotional heights, and the Baroque form of the music is equally exquisite. My own favourites of his are the Mass in B Minor, the Brandenburg Concertos and Piece d'orgue [an organ work]. I love the hint of controlled violence in Bach, and the endless, luxuriant variation.

I also feel that "huge void" in that I can often appreciate classical music on a surface level (i.e. find stuff that I like the sound of), but when I read of deeper structural analyses and what makes the music great intellectually as well as emotionally (and I particularly think of Bach in this respect, with the cunning way he strung together multi-part harmonies) I often feel lost. I think that part of this comes from never having received formal musical training (I do play bass guitar & read music a very little, but nothing that would really help me analyse complex structures).

For what it's worth, I've always thought Mozart hugely over-rated. No doubt he was a genius, and apparently his music can be used to turn babies into geniuses (if you're into that sort of thing) but to me it just sounds like 18th century pop music, rather banal and lifeless.

Dan,
I agree with you re the banality of much of Mozart's output, especially some of the earlier symphonies. However, I rate the six String Quartets that 'Mozza' dedicated to Haydn ['The Drum', 'The Hunt', 'The Dissonances' etc] as highly as the late Quartets of Beethoven. They are regarded generally as the 'cream' of Mozart's catalogue. Lord Chaverly and I discuss them earlier on in the thread. Are you familiar with them?

Speaking of Lord Chaverly, where is the dear boy? He really is such a very excellent person, and his serene musings are greatly missed...

Not familiar, but I will give them a try, although as I mentioned a while back on this thread, very little pre-20th century music gets me excited: I can appreciate the skill that went into composing it, find it quite pleasant to listen to, but I find it very hard to "connect with".

Originally posted by timo
Dan,
I agree with you re the banality of much of Mozart's output, especially some of the earlier symphonies. However, I rate the six String Quartets that 'Mozza' dedicated to Haydn ['The Drum', 'The Hunt', 'The Dissonances' etc] as highly as the late Quartets of Beethoven. They are regarded generally as the 'cream' of Mozart's catalogue. Lord Chaverly and I discuss them earlier on in the thread. Are you familiar with them?

Speaking of Lord Chaverly, where is the dear boy? He really is such a very excellent person, and his serene musings are greatly missed...

Thank you for those kind words Timo, which are certainly reciprocated and appreciated, not least because I regard you as the finest poster on the forum (with the admirable JoeP currently my second choice). I have been busy in the last couple of weeks with various off-forum matters, so haven't posted much. As far as Mozza is concerned, I can see Dan's point about a lot of his orchestral works - he was after all writing to please a popular audience, so a lot of his output could indeed be regarded as the pop music of its day. But listen to his chamber music, in particular the late quartets, or to his piano sonatas, plus some of the magnificent arias from the operas, then you will hear a very different Mozart. I actually think the same is true of Haydn. I could manage quite happily if i never heard another Haydn symphony, but would be bereft if i had no access to his wonderful quartets and choral music.

Lord C,

I hear from a reliable source that Robin Ireland will be performing transcriptions next week at St Mark's Broomhill. 14th July 8pm. Retiring collection for Scope.

Regarding auditorium acoustics, I did read one review of a choral performance in one hall which said:

"It seems a pity that such powerful singing should so forcibly remind one of an aquarium - the ever opening mouth and the lack of sound."

Sorry, I don't remember the name of the reviewer.

Timo,
I see that you mention Brahms earlier in the thread as being one of your favourites. Have you any opinions on the g minor piano quartet in Schoenberg's arrangement for orchestra?

I was delighted recently while on a car journey to hear my niece in her car seat having a little sing to herself. I was extra delighted to work out that what she was singing was 'ode to joy' from Beethoven's 9th. She's 22 months old and thanks her Mum for putting it on the CD player.

Hopman,
Yes, Brahms is a favourite of mine, though I rate Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Haydn, Bruckner, and Wagner higher. I like the often mellow, reflective nature of his chamber music, and the four symphonies I know practically note for note [to listen to, not to play!]. He lived, as did everyone else in the period in which Brahms composed, in the shadow of Beethoven. His music owes much to the older master, but has none of its 'revolutionary' qualities. Brahms, we are told, and as evidenced by his compositions, possessed none of Beethoven's inner fire and drive. I love Brahms' conservative reverence for the past, but as Schoenberg said of his 4th symphony, 'Conservatives can be progressives too'.

This brings me to your question about Schoenberg's notorious transcription of Brahms' g minor piano quartet. Frankly, I wish Schoenberg had 'left well enough alone', as that Philosopher-King, Oliver Hardy would say. The orchestration is absolutely terrible, and the addition of xylophone would most probably have Brahms in tears of laughter. Schoenberg probably meant well, but he had serious delusions of grandeur in daring to think that he could meddle with the work of Brahms in the first place. Even worse than Schoenberg's travesty is 'Cans and Brahms' by Rick Wakeman on the album 'Fragile' by Yes. Plain bloody stupid, would be my frank appraisal of Wakeman's efforts.

Please pardon my temerity in posting to a thread populated by such cognoscenti of the classics as young Timo and the venerable Lord C. et al...

Forgive me if, in asking whether you are aware that Classic FM TV (http://www.classicfm.com/index.cfm?nodeId=3736&sw=1024) is available via the 'Net, I am figuratively teaching my grandmother to suck eggs.

If such is the case, then I can only hope to spare my blushes by consoling myself with the thought that perhaps, somewhere amongst this exalted company, there may lurk one who was hitherto ignorant of this fact... and who may perchance find it of interest.

Ah well, back to Status Quo... (Excellent for annoying noisy neighbours I find!)

[Dear Santa... Please bring me a tongue-in-cheek smiley this year, I promise I've been good.]

yeah, I put it on when stressed out my skull!!!

Pseudonym,
Thankyou, dear heart, for the 'young Timo' reference. Of course, we, the beautiful people, were aware that Classic FM TV is available via the net but that does not matter. You were brave and goodhearted enough to enter an elite world, where angels fear to tread, in order to add to the sum of human happiness with your knowledge. In the absence of my friend, dear Lord C, may I assure you of our gratitude. You are always welcome on our threads [some posters actually think that 'Timo' and 'Lord C' are the same person], be they concerned with Beethoven and Bruckner, or 'the most slappable face in entertainment'. There is no need to blush, my young friend. You may sit at a table near us, and gaze adoringly at our finely-chiselled features, marvelling at our gravitas and genteel manners.