My dog (he is a Dogue De Bordeux) has recently developed agressive behaviour to other (entire) male dogs and whilst I am trying to address the problem through training I am also considering having him castrated. I don't want to put him through this operation unnecessarily (he has never shown any interest in girls even when one owner forgot to tell me their bitch he was playing with was in heat!!) so considering having him chemically castrated first. If it works then he can have the op.

If it isn't his homrones that are the problem then its my training and I may be back asking for recommended dog behaviourist as he already goes dog training!

Back to the chemical castration, has anyone had this done and if so what was your experience?

Finally does anyone know the rough price. I have phoned my vets to book an appointment and asked them but the receptionist didn't have a clue and wasn't prepared to find out told me the vet would tell me when I came in!! I know time to change vets.

Don't really know but usually castration just calm's them down, it does'nt tackle any mental issues he may have.
Was thinking he may see other dog's as a threat to you...his owner or to his own male pride?
I would def see a behaviour expert first, to see if his can resolve, then if everything else fails only then concider the castration issue?
Seems a very harsh thing to do if he is Dogue De Bordeux, as they are rare are they not?

Using him as a stud will be a gold mine surely and may get rid of some of his frustration, then again it may make him worse?

If your already going to training classes, then he IS well socialised in meeting other dog's?

When does the agression thing happen? Is it when he's with you on a lead or is it when he's running free? My bitch is a little funny with other dog's while on lead given a chance...but this is overcome by a quick check on the lead and a reminder to leave in a firm voice from me, then we just walk on by, she ignores..end of. If the other dog wants to come and say hello, then they can with no further problem.....seem's like if she know's it's okay by me and the other dog is not deemed as a threat she's fine.

Sorry keep adding on to this...maybe he's mis-reading the other dog's signals, cos some will walk up really stiff, hackles raised, because your dog is bigger than they are, so they feel threatened, if this is the case he just needs a reminder...you...telling him yes I'm here and I'm watching you, so don't you dare! The other dog will then relax his body language and say hello in a polite dog fashion.

I guess if your dog feels, you are uptight in meeting others at a hundred paces, then he'll pick this up and turn the agression thing on to protect you? Does this make sense?

I'll bet he even know's what your thinking now...and is crossing his leg's in terror, oooooh anything but that, pleeeeese!

Castration could help you train him by removing those hormones, however - chemical castration doesn't always give the same results as surgical castration so it may not give you the right idea.

I haven't had personal experience of it but a friend of mine tried her dog with the chemical castration and he was very subdued, even depressed, very quiet and not himself at all.
Eventually, due to more problems she did have him surgically castrated anyway and he is nothing like he was with the chemical castration!

Please never punish your dog for aggressive behaviour - that itself will make it worse, it'll work for the short term but in the long term it doesn't help your dog learn that there is nothing to be aggressive about.

Sorry I can't be more help - tbh, I've recently been speaking to other dog trainers about neutering and don't feel in any position to give advice right now! Still trying to learn more about it myself!
Whilst it's likely to be hormones due to him being aggressive with entire males, neutering has been linked with making them less confident/more nervous so I don't really want to advise you.

Why not pick up the phone to a behaviourist and ask their advice? Vets will just tell you to have him done because of the physical benefits, a behaviourist will look at the mental effect.

Using him as a stud will be a gold mine surely and may get rid of some of his frustration, then again it may make him worse?


Puddinburner please tell me you're kidding!!!

Puddinburner please tell me you're kidding!!!


Yes was:hihi: Poor thing does'nt want his nuts cracked if there is a logical kinder solution? Neither would he like to be dopped up and depressed, if that's what chemical castration does? That's aweful.
Q 1: Do you ever intend to use him for breeding?
Q 2: Is it a personal issue, to the dog himself, or is he picking sign's up from other dog's or yourself.
Q 3: can this issue be solved, in anyother way?

If the answer is NO to all, then, as Lotti said, if he's finished growing and developing, then this would probably the kindest cut and no he will not miss them..lol.
Do agree though, if it is an agressive streak in the gene's then maybe this would be for the best and actually punishing a dog for this behaviour WILL make him worse, no doubt, as he will pick up the agression from you and may even turn his own agression on you.

My dog has alway's responded to praise, when good but also my own mood/ tone of voice certain body language, if I'm uptight and tense then so is she, I have NEVER EVER had to resort to cruelty and never will...it's all about state of mind and truely understanding your dog.
Come to think of it, she's never even had a choke chain on, cos I think that's cruel, she has very long fur and it would cause lot's of pain as well as a bald neck.
The quick check on the lead, was exactly that, a quick short tug...Not a full blown..."come her you little Arrrgh, cos I'm going to strangle you" She's never ever need anything like that, cos she's a good dog....that's before anyone else gets the wrong message..lol

It's very important that owners know that dogs don't miss their balls (just if anyone's reading that is concerned by this) once they've gone, they've gone. It's no big deal.

It is worth asking the question that the OP has asked because once you've had them removed you can't go back and neutering does have it's behavioural side effects - particularly depending on the age of the dog (and if the dog is young it can affect their physical development as well).

If you can get the relevant advice from an expert who can tell you if neutering is likely to remove the hormones making dealing with the aggression easier, then it's well worth doing.

How old is he emnmax?

Sorry he is definately no gold mine he is very small for his breed and hasn't got a clue what its for (and I am not teaching him!!).

He was well socialised at training classes until he started getting aggressive now I tend to only socialise him with bitches and dogs I know he likes (they are all neuted).

He seems to be ok on the lead 99% of the time and if he does go I check him and he stops. Its off the lead when he thinks I am not controling him that he has the problem. By that I mean if I am working him and have him walking to heal he will walk past another dog and ignore it even though he has issues with that dog. But if we are playing and that same dog comes into the park then its a different story. Mostly I can recall him but other times (and they seem to be increasing) he just stops listening.

He doesn't rush in and attack, he squares up to them wagging his tail and sometimes he is fine, sometimes he attacks and sometimes he tries to play and gets attacked (but if that happens now he always fights back whereas he used to run back to me for protection).

I can't see what the trigger is I just know when its going to happen by his body language changing. Now if I see another dog I panic and try and grab him which I know is making it worse. I have tried not letting him off but as I have a have a small garden there is not enough room for him to play in it and he gets frustrated with just walking not playing frisbee or ball. I even tried running with him but he kept sitting down and I kept falling over!! Hence I have tried to make sure he is well trained so he can be let off and up until he turned 2 he was fine! Oh he is now just over 2 and half.

I have been told by our trainers its because he doesn't see me as the pack leader, he sees me as his bitch, and we are trying to address this (I admit I spolit him when he was younger as I have only owned bitches before and didn't realise males are so different). So he is now sleeping on his bed not on mine, sitting on his bed not the sofa and eating after me etc but no change yet.

When he does attack a dog I do usually tell him off, put him on the lead and leave the park to teach him. I am guessing by your replies this is wrong?

I guess I had better contact a behavourist before getting him neutered, as otherwise his personality is great. Do either of you have any recomendations?

I think it is clear I am part, if not all of the problem, especially as he doesn't seem to do it if he is being walked by a man.

emnmax,

The only problem with punishing aggressive behaviour is that it can be the stimulus (ie. the other dog) not the behaviour that becomes associated with the punishment - or worse, it can be you that he associates with the punishment.

That said, whilst I do some one to one work, I would not like to make guesses at this situation and would rather advise you to see a behaviourist.
I'm not sure of behaviourists to see, someone suggest Phil Jackson the other day - but I have no experience of him personally.
I would suggest getting in touch with Val Strong and seeing if either, she can help you or can suggest someone who can:
0114 2684962, mob 07800538161
email: val_cloughfields@sky.com

If you don't have any joy from Val, get in touch with me and I'll ask the APDT forum for suggestions of local behaviourists.

Phil Jackson comes highly recommended by our family :)

Sound's like she's doing everything humanly possible, have you tried the long lead? You still have control of the situation yet he get's the freedom to run.
Sound's like the naughty teenage stage to me?
There's no point in breeding with him, so the castration would be an option here but NOT sure if this will solve. Then again if the chemical thing does what what previously said, it will only dope him up etc...not good.
Give this Phil a ring, I'll bet you he'll solve in one short visit...Good Luck!

AND NO I'm NOT going to mention the mounting method either, got into mega wrong conclussions regarding that one last time but seriously all it involves is standing behind your dog and applying firm pressure on his shoulders, this way he will see you as Leader...lol
Bet folk had vision's of me doing naughty rude things to my dog on that one.
Errrr NO, sorry to disappoint...only had to use this once on a BIG GSD who was getting too big for his boot's and it worked..lol, very simple, no fuss, no cruelty.
Ask your dog behaviourist.

Does anyone have contact details for Phil Jackson?

He seems to be ok on the lead 99% of the time and if he does go I check him and he stops. Its off the lead when he thinks I am not controling him that he has the problem. By that I mean if I am working him and have him walking to heal he will walk past another dog and ignore it even though he has issues with that dog. But if we are playing and that same dog comes into the park then its a different story. Mostly I can recall him but other times (and they seem to be increasing) he just stops listening.

I find this part very telling. He's fine when you are actively exercising your role as pack leader, it sounds.

Does the aggression only seem to happen when you are playing? Are there toys involved?

I'll bet Speedy has the number for phil Jackson.....I've found one for Jen Phillips 0808 100 4071.

I find this part very telling. He's fine when you are actively exercising your role as pack leader, it sounds.

Does the aggression only seem to happen when you are playing? Are there toys involved?

Or it's simply a case that he is being kept busy so is not bothered...
Plus, when he's close by, he can be punished so isn't going to try anything.

Hence why punishment doesn't work. The absence of punishment is reinforcing so when he's offlead running and does anything that you would normally punish, he's not getting punished and hence is being reinforced instead.

Sorry - does that explanation make sense?

It's why, in very basic terms, positive reinforcement works so well - they don't get punished on a regular basis so a lack of punishment is not reinforcing.

Phil Jackson:
www.pjdogtraining.co.uk
I think he's a dog trainer as opposed to behaviourist though - if he can deal with it then great, I'm currently getting details of recommended behaviourists for you just in case.

I can see where your coming from Lotti, but what if the dog like mine has NEVER been punished for anything in his life?
He will not know what punishment is? Surely?

The positive reinforcement does work but how do you reward him if he's off lead and meeting another dog, where the situation could turn very nasty at the drop of a hat?
The owner has no contact, no control during this time.
He stop's listening, he ignores......sounds very teenage behaviour to me.
Oh I don't know, what your saying makes sense but what do you do when there's no contact?

That's the joy of it - reinforcement doesn't need any contact at all.

Takara went through a difficult phase of snapping at other dogs if they got too much for her. She never actually aimed to attack, it was just a 'get away from me' snap so I didn't put her on the lead where she felt more vulnerable. If a dog came upto her, I kept my voice happy and relaxed and said 'oooh who's this' then the moment they greeted, I clicked her clicker (clicker training's a wonderful thing) and she came running for her reward - be it a ball or treat or whatever.

It was also a learning curve for me learning to call her away while she was still comfortable and by timing the click for when she was at her most relaxed.

That said, we didn't delve straight into this stage. We started off counter conditioning her fear response by standing out of the way of other dogs and rewarding each time we saw a dog, then moving in gradually so that she got closer to other dogs and was still being rewarded for it. Any time she showed signs of stress we took a step back and made sure we comfortable again before moving forward.

Then after that (didn't take long) I would click each time she met a dog. She associated the dog with the click and knew that the click meant she would get either a meaty treat, a game of tug or a game of fetch so came running back to me.

You have to figure out what makes your dog tick first of all and then exploit it!

For punishment, you need contact. Positive reinforcement requires no contact whatsoever (and actually, many dogs don't like petting and stroking in the park)

I have to add... if your dog may actually attack as opposed to defend by showing their teeth, like Takara did then this needs to be done on the lead - but the same rules apply.

No it also happens when he is playing with another dog he likes and another one trys to join in or if I am not giving him my full attention i.e. if two of us take him for a walk and talk to each other he will see that as a license to cause mayhem (not being aggressive necessarily just not doing anything he is told). If we both concentrate on him he is as pleased as punch but I am guessing this is because he is back in charge!!

He will give his toys to female dogs but not male dogs (and sometimes not me either). I must stress I have only had him since he was 11 months old and he has always only left toys when he wants to! He was given no training by his previous owners, food was withheld in an attempt to keep him small and he was never walked. So considering he now has his Kennel Club Silver Award he has done well. But I now feel we have turned a corner in the wrong direction.

By the way I am still trying to teach him to leave toys by rewarding him with food when he does but it is an uphill struggle as he is hardly food or treat motivated at all. People often try and give him biscuits in the park but when he is out on a walk he is not interested in food (unless it is the finest roast chicken and then only for the first few bits!) To get him to leave the ball he has, I tried taking several balls to the park (as it is these he is motivated most by) but gave up when he got 4 in his mouth and was trying for 5 even though he was nearly choking!!

Though when I do play with several balls with him he is not the slightest bit interested in other dogs, as again he has what he wants which is my undivided attention and me running round after him, but I still have to watch for other dogs being interested in him!!

He seems to be very jealous but I have been told dogs don't do jealous just dominence. Hence the new pack leader techniques I am trying and will keep up as he has stopped jumping up at me so progress may just be slow. But as the agression is something I need to stop sooner rather than later I guess its time to call in the experts and get him assessed.

Well this sound's like the best training ever, I must say:) If it works like you say it does, but surely you have to see a dog behaviourist to learn this technique?
As you say it's a lot to do with tone of voice and I reackon all dog's are tastey treat orientated...lol
My mum used to do the old dog obedience thing, always had something smelly in her pocket and do you know that dog was like a flipping robot, a little too un-natuaral for my liking, but it got her winner's.

I still verge on the pack leader stuff, simple tone of voice, the odd body contact in extreme cases, but deffo no hitting etc, just in a way the dog understands.
Dog whispering!

emnmax, have you tried clicker training? I was turned onto it only a couple of years back, and it worked wonders with my dogs who weren't food motivated.

Phil is a dog trainer, but we had him for behavioural problems. Well worth giving him a ring anyway :)

Castration is not a bad thing in fact it prevents many diseases such as testicular cancer and Prostate cancer in male dogs. The pros far outway the cons, so dont beat yourself up about the procedure. It takes about ten minutes and the dog is only under for a short period and they make a remarkable recovery.

If you are not breeding then castrate.

No it also happens when he is playing with another dog he likes and another one trys to join in or if I am not giving him my full attention i.e. if two of us take him for a walk and talk to each other he will see that as a license to cause mayhem (not being aggressive necessarily just not doing anything he is told). If we both concentrate on him he is as pleased as punch but I am guessing this is because he is back in charge!!
It's more likely because you are worth staying around when you are concentrating on him, whereas if you are busy talking to someone else, he may as well do his own thing. There's nothing in it for him to hang around you. Some dogs will follow their owners and dote on them, others have to have a reason to do everything and that means making sure he is being reinforced for being with you (ie. has your attention).
If he's seeking your attention then it shows that you are in charge - you are the one he's interested in.

He will give his toys to female dogs but not male dogs (and sometimes not me either). I must stress I have only had him since he was 11 months old and he has always only left toys when he wants to! He was given no training by his previous owners, food was withheld in an attempt to keep him small and he was never walked. So considering he now has his Kennel Club Silver Award he has done well. But I now feel we have turned a corner in the wrong direction.
It sounds like he's done very well :) Poor little man, going through all that. I'd take a guess that he feels pretty insecure - hence the aggression.

By the way I am still trying to teach him to leave toys by rewarding him with food when he does but it is an uphill struggle as he is hardly food or treat motivated at all. As Schiann says, clicker training can alter this - but you don't need food/treats to have a motivated dog, just use whatever does motivate him. Also have a look at what treats you are using. Kibble, for instance isn't going to interest him in the slightest out on a walk whilst garlic sausage or cooked liver may well do the trick! People often try and give him biscuits in the park but when he is out on a walk he is not interested in food (unless it is the finest roast chicken and then only for the first few bits!) To get him to leave the ball he has, I tried taking several balls to the park (as it is these he is motivated most by) but gave up when he got 4 in his mouth and was trying for 5 even though he was nearly choking!!
Have you attempted to teach 'leave' in other less distracting environments? I'd be tempted to teach it in less distracting environments first, swapping for a different ball, then move onto the park but instead of expecting him to drop it because you throw the ball, you only throw another ball if he drops it first. You have to strike up a bargain and if he keeps his side of it, you keep yours. So he comes back, he drops the ball, you throw the next ball. While he charges off after it, you collect the original. Handy as you then only need two balls!
It's hard to acheive at first but once he understands the bargain, he'll remember how it works!

Though when I do play with several balls with him he is not the slightest bit interested in other dogs, as again he has what he wants which is my undivided attention and me running round after him, but I still have to watch for other dogs being interested in him!!
Actually, he's got a positive distraction from the other dogs so doesn't feel threatened so no need to attack/protect - whatever it is he's doing. While you're doing something else with him, he's got his mind on that so a dog is only a problem if it comes over to him. This is something you need to work on over time.

He seems to be very jealous but I have been told dogs don't do jealous just dominence. Hence the new pack leader techniques I am trying and will keep up as he has stopped jumping up at me so progress may just be slow. But as the agression is something I need to stop sooner rather than later I guess its time to call in the experts and get him assessed.
I'm not a fan of the dominance clap trap. I'd be interested to know what exactly it is you're doing to assert your 'dominance' as pack leader? As the dog's owner you already provide everything for him - his food, his walks, his access to other places - so if you want to believe in dominance and packs, then you've already got yourself a pack leader there - YOU control everything he has. However, the truth is, whether you believe in dominance or not, the science behind behaviour is dogs repeat behaviours they find rewarding. They do not repeat behaviours that get them nowhere once they've learned they get them nowhere.
Jealousy isn't really something I'd attribute to a dog - but then I'd also say that far too many behaviour problems are put down to dominance. Anyone would think dogs were trying to take over the world, starting in our homes.
However - whilst dogs don't experience jealous they are brilliant resource guarders. A dog in a pack of dogs (I know dogs live in packs, but what I don't believe is that they see us as a dog. We are people, they know we are people.) has to guard his resources to survive. Even through years of selective breeding, people don't seem to have thought to breed out resource guarding in some dogs and dogs can see us as resources as well as food, toys and locations. If he feels threatened that another dog may try to remove one of his resources (you, his ball etc) that may be the aggression you are seeing rather than jealousy per se.


I would still recommend getting in touch with Val Strong but I am also going to get a list of qualified behaviourists as I don't have one yet anyway and ought to have.
Alternatively have a look at www.ukrcb.org as I have been reliably informed that anyone on there as a full member is worth speaking to.

Remember also, behaviourists travel to you so not necessarily a problem if they're not particularly local.

Well this sound's like the best training ever, I must say:) If it works like you say it does, but surely you have to see a dog behaviourist to learn this technique?
As you say it's a lot to do with tone of voice and I reackon all dog's are tastey treat orientated...lol
My mum used to do the old dog obedience thing, always had something smelly in her pocket and do you know that dog was like a flipping robot, a little too un-natuaral for my liking, but it got her winner's.

I still verge on the pack leader stuff, simple tone of voice, the odd body contact in extreme cases, but deffo no hitting etc, just in a way the dog understands.
Dog whispering!

Not really. I'm a dog trainer, not a behaviourist but I've taught people this technique and they've had results from it. It's actually very simple to use and no need to pretend you or your dog is a wolf :D

The nice thing with clicker training in aggression cases is that often the owners, by the time they speak to someone to find out what to do are frazzled and beside themselves and asking them to talk to their dog means the dog will only get a very shaky, very uptight 'good dog' from their owner. They can sense this in the owner's voice so using a clicker, you don't portray any of your own feelings. The clicker has the same sound all the time so the dog immediately knows something good is happening. You just have to be careful and practice your timing. It's no good clicking your dog just as he goes for the jugular of another dog ;)

I do obedience but only fun, pet obedience and if I were to ever go for competitive obedience, I wouldn't want to lose the sparkle from my dog. Again, this is why I like positive reinforcement - there's no need to lose the sparkle. Usually a robotic dog is one that (no offence to your mum - I don't know what techniques she used) has learned he has to be very careful about what he's doing in case he gets punished for the wrong thing. A positively reinforced dog will be quite happy to try it because 'what's the worst that can happen?'

Plus, with positive reinforcement you can delay the reward as long as you give a bridge (such as a word to say you got it right, your treat is coming) so that you can finish your competition without needing to feed or fuss until the end whereas punishment needs to be delivered there and then.

Have you tried him with primula cream cheese? My dogue de bordeaux won't do anything for biscuits, however lottie tried him on cream cheese and he now does anything for it!! Cooked ham or chicken has a similar effect, but nothing works as well as the cheese! At tesco is is £1.1? ad at home bargins i think it's about 80/90p?

Hehe - I soooo need to get shares in primula... perhaps I should be on commission! :lol:

Not really. I'm a dog trainer, not a behaviourist but I've taught people this technique and they've had results from it. It's actually very simple to use and no need to pretend you or your dog is a wolf :D

The nice thing with clicker training in aggression cases is that often the owners, by the time they speak to someone to find out what to do are frazzled and beside themselves and asking them to talk to their dog means the dog will only get a very shaky, very uptight 'good dog' from their owner. They can sense this in the owner's voice so using a clicker, you don't portray any of your own feelings. The clicker has the same sound all the time so the dog immediately knows something good is happening. You just have to be careful and practice your timing. It's no good clicking your dog just as he goes for the jugular of another dog ;)

I do obedience but only fun, pet obedience and if I were to ever go for competitive obedience, I wouldn't want to lose the sparkle from my dog. Again, this is why I like positive reinforcement - there's no need to lose the sparkle. Usually a robotic dog is one that (no offence to your mum - I don't know what techniques she used) has learned he has to be very careful about what he's doing in case he gets punished for the wrong thing. A positively reinforced dog will be quite happy to try it because 'what's the worst that can happen?'

Plus, with positive reinforcement you can delay the reward as long as you give a bridge (such as a word to say you got it right, your treat is coming) so that you can finish your competition without needing to feed or fuss until the end whereas punishment needs to be delivered there and then.

OOOOO yessss! There was a lot of my mum's methods' that I did NOT agree with while I was growing up. Absolutely obsessed with perfection and not at all bothered about what the dog was feeling.
No love lost there I'm afraid so you can say what your thinking! Certainly!
I think the same and my childhood was not a very happy one....errr enough said.

I really do love this idea of the clicker method though! sounds ace and your right a "click" will sound a lot further to a dog than a human voice ever would:hihi:

puddinburner, get hold of a book called Click To Calm (and the OP could take a look at this too). It's clicker training aggressive dogs.

You'll like it :D

is this max stella mate?????

Hi Vikki, yes it is. He has got even more difficult recently (like he was ever an easy dog). I am off to buy the book recommended above now!!

i know i feel awful i havent had chance to pop to club recently. will have to bring madam up and maybe she will get his act together. (lovebirds) he is a pudding thou will try and get up monday are you going.

I haven't been for a number of weeks either (he attacked that new chocolate Lab last time we were there when doing recalls!!) but I plan to go on Monday. Just have to work hard with him over the weekend.

I would still recommend getting in touch with Val Strong but I am also going to get a list of qualified behaviourists as I don't have one yet anyway and ought to have.
Alternatively have a look at www.ukrcb.org as I have been reliably informed that anyone on there as a full member is worth speaking to.

Remember also, behaviourists travel to you so not necessarily a problem if they're not particularly local.
I'm not a fan of the dominance clap trap. I'd be interested to know what exactly it is you're doing to assert your 'dominance' as pack leader? As the dog's owner you already provide everything for him - his food, his walks, his access to other places - so if you want to believe in dominance and packs, then you've already got yourself a pack leader there - YOU control everything he has. However, the truth is, whether you believe in dominance or not, the science behind behaviour is dogs repeat behaviours they find rewarding. They do not repeat behaviours that get them nowhere once they've learned they get them nowhere.

Lotti, all I am doing is giving him some boundaries i.e. he is not sleeping on my bed anymore or sitting on the sofa's all the time. He is allowed on both when I call him up but not when he wants to. He eats after me now (not working so well) and instead of letting him jump all over me when I get in I ask him to sit and ignore him until he does. In the house when he is being good I will fuss him but not when he is being bad or demanding attention (which he does a lot and I have always given into). I can't say I am enjoying doing this as I got a dog to love not to ignore but if it teaches him some manners (something he is lacking in) then its worth it.

I am going to try this clicker training (just ordered a book and clicker), as well as I really don't want to have to take him out muzzled etc. He was good before and I am hoping that with a little effort and self control on my part he will be again.

The two ball thing I have tried but he finds it just as rewarding to carry the ball in his mouth as to drop it so I will throw another one. He just looks at the ball in my other hand and walks off as when he has a ball he thinks he is in charge and can do what he wants. Plus at home he will leave his toys not problem its only when we are out that he gets possesive. I think you are right and he is guarding his resources but when he is so stuborn it is very frustrating. I will now try with the clicker at home enforcing the leave and then venture back to the park.

I haven't been for a number of weeks either (he attacked that new chocolate Lab last time we were there when doing recalls!!) but I plan to go on Monday. Just have to work hard with him over the weekend.

which choclate lab Hazel?

have you had a chat with dave at club? he is good.

from seeing max im not quite sure he has the attention span for clicker training. do you think it would work?

puddinburner, get hold of a book called Click To Calm (and the OP could take a look at this too). It's clicker training aggressive dogs.

You'll like it :D


Will do babe:hihi: Sounds the kindest most effective way to me.
After My mother experience, I have always believed in the kind way!:hihi:

Like the Monty Roberts way with horse's, There was a jockey/ trainer in my yard and He used the most cruelest, most stressful way to brake them in.....I vowed NEVER to any of mine!
Same applies to dog's!

No the new male one. I don't know if you have seen it he is a big boy (bigger than Max) it wasn't pretty. His owner got bit because she put her hands in between them!!

Dave saw it and said it is his age and I need to distract him when he see's other dogs. Easier said than done with Max as once he has a thought in his brain all other senses leave!!

Oh my god if clickers require attention span then I will struggle as Max was crossed with a goldfish!! I will give it a try (along with everything else). hey I may end up with the best trained dog at the club (yep you are all leaving!!)

I suppose after a spell of training with the clicker, he will become auto pilot to it, no brain required? LOL:)

i know max and think it would be a waste of time clicker training he is far too headstrong maybe a spray collar would be better for him.

i know max and think it would be a waste of time clicker training he is far too headstrong maybe a spray collar would be better for him.


Seriously bob from the shop decided to use the spray collar on his gsd x and it worked! but this was for excessive barking at night.

Squirts a lemon scented spray in the dogs face by remote control...how strange, just think it distracts the dog's attention, just as a clicker would:hihi:

Headstrong makes them unable to be clicker trained?? (Try telling Takara that!)

Use a spray collar if you wish. I wouldn't - again, it's the timing of the punishment and how easy it is for the dog to associate the spray with the other dog as opposed to his own behaviour.

But then, I strongly believe in focussing on what the dog does right and building on that instead of making walks so stressful that the dog either gets worse or just shuts down. I know I wouldn't want to go for a walk if everytime I went someone put a bloody spray collar on me!

emnmax - as you've ordered the stuff now, give it a try and have a look at the book I mentioned: Click To Calm, I can loan you it if you like.

Seriously bob from the shop decided to use the spray collar on his gsd x and it worked! but this was for excessive barking at night.

Squirts a lemon scented spray in the dogs face by remote control...how strange, just think it distracts the dog's attention, just as a clicker would:hihi:

The clicker's not there as a distraction - it's there to make a positive association and reward good behaviour. Lemon spray in the face will never do that and if I got sprayed in the face everytime I went to say hello to someone, I'd stop saying hi to them and I'd warn them off big time if they came upto me just in case I got the spray for that too... think about it - you can't explain to the dog that 'you are getting punished because of the way you are reacting to that dog' so the dog just sees the other dog and doesn't want it near them because when it is near them, it gets sprayed.

not EVERY dog can be clicker trained and that is not the solution to ever issue it is a method you have found works i have found other methods tht work people have their own opinion. so im not wrong and neither are you.

my dog works wel by being spoken to firm and treat rewarded. my mums works well with just a stoke as a reward my mums other is a nightmare and needs a spray collar. all 3 hate water and all you have to do is stand with them and make the plastic bottle pop and they all stop what they are doing and pay attention. they are NOT frightened but know that when they are told to stop they do otherwise they get wet!


every dog is different i have never said to emnmax not to try clicker training i just said i dont feel it would work after knowing max for a while meeting him and doing abit of work with him.

The clicker's not there as a distraction - it's there to make a positive association and reward good behaviour. Lemon spray in the face will never do that and if I got sprayed in the face everytime I went to say hello to someone, I'd stop saying hi to them and I'd warn them off big time if they came upto me just in case I got the spray for that too... think about it - you can't explain to the dog that 'you are getting punished because of the way you are reacting to that dog' so the dog just sees the other dog and doesn't want it near them because when it is near them, it gets sprayed.

LOL...that's excatly why I questioned this lemon spray business...the poor dog does'nt even know he is being punished, just that he get's a gob full and nose full of vile smelling stuff, for no apharent reason?
Oh so when I bark, this is what happens? so no point in barking...so NO bloody point in having a DOG if he aint barking:hihi: DAFT INIT!
What got me he spent over a hundred quid on this silly device!

depend if you have an excessive barker. my mums girl does and doesnt stop when told to so a collar is the best thing for her. we dont mind the occasional bark but if somebody knocks at the door or even for no reason she continues for ages.

I never said EVERY dog could be clicker trained. I personally feel that positive methods (which are less likely to have negative effects on behaviour) should be exhausted before resorting to aversives.

Aversives and punishment come with their very possible and very real side effects and this can and often does make behaviour worse.

There's nothing to lose but time when it comes to trying positive methods (and I advised on the use of the clicker because it doesn't translate the tension like the handler's voice might) - you are much less likely to make the behaviour worse or stress out your dog.

And I strongly, strongly disagree with meeting aggression with aggression (however mild). Punishing aggressive behaviour can have such severe side effects I feel it should only ever be used after exhausting positive methods and with supervision from an expert.

Obviously this is only my opinion, and of course you are entitled to yours but I wanted to stress the dangers of using aversives and punishment when it may not be required.

I do regularly promote clicker training, but I don't force anyone to use it. I always advise positive reinforcement and sometimes a bit of negative punishment (never positive punishment) but how people want to go about it and whether they wish to try clicker training is always left entirely upto the owners, particularly as some people can't get the hang of the clicker - most dogs have no problem!

I didn't want to cause an argument.

I am going to try the clicker training (even though Max can be a bit dense and has a 3 second memory) because I know that I am now getting so wound up on walks he must be able to sense it in my voice. Vikki remember how good he can be for you and others at the club because you are calm with him but give him back to me and he takes the p*ss again.

I don't know if spraying something in his face would work for him can see it making him angrier when he got to the other dog. Plus I can't see it ever making him stop as in true Hooch fashion if he wants to go somewhere and there is something between him and that thing he will just put his head down and ram it. Sometimes it works, sometimes he hurts himself but he never gives up or learns!!

everybody sees differnt kinds off punishment something to you may be different to everybody. my girlie was aggressive and can stiil have that occasional snarl but that is all it is now as all i have to do is say thats enough that has been by no clicker training no positive rewards as such. all that has been done is her being put in her place in the 'pack' i must stress and emnmax will vouch for this my dog is NOT frightened of me she doesnt cower or hide from me and she has never been hit!


its your choice your dog he is a good lad he just doesnt want to share. will catch up with you monday at club not sure if stella will be there thou. its all fun at my mums now with 3 of them!!

LOL Sorry emnmax, that did make me laugh - he sounds like a true character... it was the bit 'just put his head down and ram it'! :lol:

And sorry... I didn't mean to cause an argument either - it's just one of my soapboxes :blush: