I'm pretty new to the forum, and have only just found this section on Disability issues. Want to know what people think about this issue:-

Elderly People get a winter fuel allowance each year (I'm not talking about the cold weather payments) if they are in receipt of certain benfits.
But the same does not apply to younger disabled people. WHY?

It simply beggers belief that in this day of rising fuel bills, someone has not thought to address this issue. Disabled people often have mobility problems etc and do not find it easy to keep warm (especially if you have heart/ciculation problems too). Ergo, you have the heating on practically full blast most of the time in winter, and the huge heating bills that go with it. Whilst I do not begrudge Elderly People their allowance, it irritates me that Disabled People do not have the same level of assitance (wonder if this contravines the DDA? Mmmm!)

What do others think?

I never knew about this. I don't think we'd qualify for any help anyway, as its our 4 year old son who is disabled.

I never knew about this. I don't think we'd qualify for any help anyway, as its our 4 year old son who is disabled.

no, honeyb, this allowance is only for pensioners, not the disabled, as of yet, which is unfair.

no, honeyb, this allowance is only for pensioners, not the disabled, as of yet, which is unfair.

:thumbsup: Well said. Unfair is the politest description I can think of.

What I want to know is, why?, and is anyone doing anything about it?

I'd imagine it's because it's generally accepted that the elderly (whether disabled or not) will often need to be kept warmer than younger people (whether disabled or not).

Playing Devil's Advocate, to some extent, there are many elderly people who need to have the heating on regularly but don't receive a top-up such as AA to their pension to help further with fuel bills.

Some younger people who do receive DLA may not need to be kept as warm; the blind, the deaf, for example.

Probably a more pertinent point is that you'll never stop being elderly (apart from .....), but you may stop being 'legally' disabled. DLA awards (the only way that I could really see such a scheme working in tandem with) aren't always for long terms, and even then if they're fixed terms, it's unlikely to be a higher care award.

That's my Devil's Advocate bit for now, but how would people decide exactly which disabled people would receive an allowance? Tell me!

Hi, Happyhippy,

Nice to see some constuctive comments, that's what the forum's all about!

Yes, you have a point. Elderly people, will always be elderly, and obvously need assistance with fuel bills etc, and there are some disabled people who have medical conditions that may not require this assistance.

But I do think, that disabled people should at least have the chance to apply for that privilage as well. I was thinking in terms of maybe DLA Middle Rate (& Above) Care or Higher Rate Mobility as 'passporting' people (depending on their conditions) to this in the same way that it does with other things.

There is no reason why the information submitted on a DLA application & a report from the applicants GP/Specialist couldn't be used to help decide who needs assistance!

By the way, don't always assume that Deaf & Blind People don't need additional help with heating. They may have secondary conditions that require this. There are also a number of illness that can cause sensory imparement and damage heart, neuro and vascular function!

Hi, Happyhippy,

Nice to see some constuctive comments, that's what the forum's all about!

Yes, you have a point. Elderly people, will always be elderly, and obvously need assistance with fuel bills etc, and there are some disabled people who have medical conditions that may not require this assistance.

Without doubt, but how would these people be assessed? With an extra part in the DLA assessment? That surely couldn't be right; it's too complicated for most as it is.

But I do think, that disabled people should at least have the chance to apply for that privilage as well. I was thinking in terms of maybe DLA Middle Rate (& Above) Care or Higher Rate Mobility as 'passporting' people (depending on their conditions) to this in the same way that it does with other things.

People who are totally blind or profoundly deaf will receive middle rate care almost as a guarantee. It certainly wouldn't follow that they need help with heating costs over and above those who are able-bodied. More to the point, it's yet another assessment.

There is no reason why the information submitted on a DLA application & a report from the applicants GP/Specialist couldn't be used to help decide who needs assistance!

Well, yes there is, as (as things stand) it would be a third component to DLA, or a benefit to be placed alongside Incap/ESA. As things are, when someone reaches pensionable age, the WFA kicks in.

Not all people who may require extra warmth would be eligible for DLA, but may be eligible for IB.

More to the point, the GP/External Medical Practitioner's report would be the only things to be taken into account. They're not exactly accurate with regard to current DLA claims as it is!

It's also meant as a benefit which encapsulates all the difficulties which are met by people of a certain age.

By the way, don't always assume that Deaf & Blind People don't need additional help with heating. They may have secondary conditions that require this. There are also a number of illness that can cause sensory imparement and damage heart, neuro and vascular function!

I've spent years and years working for DWP (and various other incarnations), and on the other side in welfare rights, so I know how things can affect people!

I just can't see how implementing a WFA for younger people would work.

Maybe a local allowance administered by the LA could work better? I really can't see it as a mational policy.

But if you think it could, or think I'm wrong, tell me!

the disability newspaper "Disability Now" are in the forefront of a campaign to have the fuel allowance to awarded to households with persons with disabilities.

I support it.

There was a shocking story on the front page of the Star, a couple of weeks ago about the Sheffield area not qualifying properly for the other hardship-payment, which is generated for benefit claimants when the average temperature drops below freezing for more than seven consecutive days.

Different areas in Sheffield come under different weather stations which may have quite different temperatures so Mrs X in s20 may receive it, because her postcode is covered by a weather station that triggered a payment, but Mrs Y, in S13 may not, as she may be under a different station where the payment wasn't triggered.

HH, I think the WFA as a local allowance, being distributed by the LA might be a good idea. (If the Local Authorities could get their acts together, and actually do a proper job of administering allowances and benefits!)

Its not only the elderly who get the cold weather payment, Im 22 and have been getting it a few years now. It does come handy because as has been said as it started getting colder I have to have the heating on most of the day on full blast.

the disability newspaper "Disability Now" are in the forefront of a campaign to have the fuel allowance to awarded to households with persons with disabilities.

I support it.

There was a shocking story on the front page of the Star, a couple of weeks ago about the Sheffield area not qualifying properly for the other hardship-payment, which is generated for benefit claimants when the average temperature drops below freezing for more than seven consecutive days.

Different areas in Sheffield come under different weather stations which may have quite different temperatures so Mrs X in s20 may receive it, because her postcode is covered by a weather station that triggered a payment, but Mrs Y, in S13 may not, as she may be under a different station where the payment wasn't triggered.

HH, I think the WFA as a local allowance, being distributed by the LA might be a good idea. (If the Local Authorities could get their acts together, and actually do a proper job of administering allowances and benefits!)


Hi guys and Gals (HH, PT & anyone else who happens to read this),

I wasn't aware that there was a 'Disability Now' campaign over Winter Fuel Allowance* - at least someone is trying to do something about it!

There are already people (according to 'The Star') trying to rectify the less that fair method/criteria for Cold Weather Payments*.

However, my main concern is that if WFA becomes the responsibility of Local Authorities (as you both suggest) there may be a danger of Postcode Lottery like the NHS. For example, some LA's may be able to 'find' money to pay WFA and others may not.

I personally, think that it should be rolled out from central government. Although as HH rightly points out, getting the 'critera formuli' fine tuned is going to be a nightmare.

* For those of you who are not 'Benefit Wise', these are to different kinds of payment, for which different qualifications apply.

Its not only the elderly who get the cold weather payment, Im 22 and have been getting it a few years now. It does come handy because as has been said as it started getting colder I have to have the heating on most of the day on full blast.

Yes, Blue Dragon (what a great username!, you're not an Anne Maccaffrey fan by any chance ru?),

you are right, but it still depends on where you live, AND the temperature falling below zero for 7 consecutive days.

However, my issue is with the Winter Fuel Payment, which elderly people (irrespective of disability) get. But which is not available to disabled people, under pension age, who may benefit from help with higher than normal fuel bills, due to the nature of their conditions.

Yes, Blue Dragon (what a great username!, you're not an Anne Maccaffrey fan by any chance ru?),

you are right, but it still depends on where you live, AND the temperature falling below zero for 7 consecutive days.

However, my issue is with the Winter Fuel Payment, which elderly people (irrespective of disability) get. But which is not available to disabled people, under pension age, who may benefit from help with higher than normal fuel bills, due to the nature of their conditions.

I'm glad you cleared up the difference between the WFA and the CWP, as that saved me much typing!

I agree about the postcode lottery completely (the CWP is as such as it is), but a WFA for younger people could cost an absolute fortune in benefit to people who really wouldn't need it.

For example, I have quite a few friends who receive middle rate care through sight problems. Not a one would need a WFA. Most get plenty of internal warmth through Guinness after work!

Could it be means tested, or would that draw too many Daily Heil readers in to complain?

I think it's a very interesting idea though, and thanks PT. I'll check 'Disability Now' (when I've found the URL - they send me precious little now :mad:).

It's something worth looking at.

Do remember everybody if you haven't already done it that there is free insulation for elderly and disabled alike. I've had cavity wall insulation done through this scheme and it has made a difference as I do get cold very easily and now don't have to turn up the heating so much.

Do remember everybody if you haven't already done it that there is free insulation for elderly and disabled alike. I've had cavity wall insulation done through this scheme and it has made a difference as I do get cold very easily and now don't have to turn up the heating so much.


Well said Duckweed, you are quite right. There are schemes like the 'Warm Front' that can help with fee loft and cavity wall insulation etc, if you are on benefits (whatever age you are). And despite the publicity, not everybody seems to know about them.

I had cavity wall insulation done several years ago, and it does make a difference. But I still get cold in winter, and have to hoik the heating up. My body obviously thinks I'm about 90, even if I'm not!

Happyhippy,

just out of curiosity, is your real first name Brian? You kind of remind me of someone I used to work with. You can send me a PM if you don't want to reply on the forum.

I'm pretty new to the forum, and have only just found this section on Disability issues. Want to know what people think about this issue:-

Elderly People get a winter fuel allowance each year (I'm not talking about the cold weather payments) if they are in receipt of certain benfits.
But the same does not apply to younger disabled people. WHY?

It simply beggers belief that in this day of rising fuel bills, someone has not thought to address this issue. Disabled people often have mobility problems etc and do not find it easy to keep warm (especially if you have heart/ciculation problems too). Ergo, you have the heating on practically full blast most of the time in winter, and the huge heating bills that go with it. Whilst I do not begrudge Elderly People their allowance, it irritates me that Disabled People do not have the same level of assitance (wonder if this contravines the DDA? Mmmm!)

What do others think?

Yes, we struggle with this. I have circulatory problems, am not very mobile sometimes and am on warfarin so basically have no chance of keeping warm! I shiver when everyone else thinks it's warm!

As a result, I'm suffering at the moment with several layers of fleeces due to not being able to afford to have the heating on full blast all the time :(

That said, as a disabled person you do qualify for free loft/cavity wall insulation.

Meanwhile I'm sure the energy saving bulbs they keep sending me will keep me warm :loopy: :lol:

I know what you mean about those light bulbs, I've got loads of the bloomin things!

This thread seems to have lost momentum.....hasn't anyone else got any views or opinions on the Winter Fuel Allowance (or lack of) for Disabled People?


PS Happyhippy, gather by your lack of response to my previous post, you prefer to keep your true name to yourself. No probs.

Can I add something else. You do know if you have a low income you can ask your supplier for a lower tariff. My niece who lives alone on benefits changed her supplier lately and I heard on the news you can ask for a lower tariff. She tried it and as well as getting a capped price for 2 years she was given a lower price. Cut her costs a lot.

Can I add something else. You do know if you have a low income you can ask your supplier for a lower tariff. My niece who lives alone on benefits changed her supplier lately and I heard on the news you can ask for a lower tariff. She tried it and as well as getting a capped price for 2 years she was given a lower price. Cut her costs a lot.

:thumbsup: You are quite right Duckweed. It's something that is not that well publicised. I only found out about this lower tariff myself, through a friend, not via my supplier.

I actually wrote to Downing Street a couple of years about this very subject, asking why the disabled weren't allowed the same winter allowance, my sister is disabled and her bills are huge, the answer was the payment was reflected in the SDP ( severe disability premium)
and DLA

Would someone be able to tell me how i would find oiut about the cold weather thing?
I am kind of new to benefits but am really struggling to find out what i'm entitled to etc, they don't seem to be forthcoming with info, thanks

Would someone be able to tell me how i would find oiut about the cold weather thing?
I am kind of new to benefits but am really struggling to find out what i'm entitled to etc, they don't seem to be forthcoming with info, thanks

There's information on the Cold Weather Payment part way down this page (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6043288.stm). It also gives details of other help on offer from the Government.

Can't help on other benefits - they depend on an individual's situation. CAB has an online advice service (http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/)which covers benefits. I think many CABs also offer a free benefit check, you can find your nearest one here (http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/index/getadvice.htm#searchbox).

I think one of the reasons this section of the Forum was started was because it can be so damn difficult to find the information you need! If you don't know what's available, you can't find out about it, and there doesn't seem to be one central point that tells you what is available.

I don't just mean Government benefits, but things like Shopmobility scooter hire and the Community Bus Service for people with disabilities.

As Dozy says, we couldn't possibly help you without knowing all your circumstances, and we'd never ask for them!

Cutting a long story short, the Cold Weather Payment is for people who are long term receivers of some illness benefits, or pensioners, and the weather according to the relevant weather station to your area has been below 0C for 7 days.

The Winter Fuel Allowance is for pensioners over a winter period.

Contact your local CAB for more detailed advice.

thanks guys, i'll have a look at the websites now i know they exist!

Has anyone had any luck with Warm Front? I applied and they never got in touch so i applied again and the same has happened, don't know wether to persevere or if its worth the hassle?

keep smiling x

I'm pretty new to the forum, and have only just found this section on Disability issues. Want to know what people think about this issue:-

Elderly People get a winter fuel allowance each year (I'm not talking about the cold weather payments) if they are in receipt of certain benfits.
But the same does not apply to younger disabled people. WHY?

It simply beggers belief that in this day of rising fuel bills, someone has not thought to address this issue. Disabled people often have mobility problems etc and do not find it easy to keep warm (especially if you have heart/ciculation problems too). Ergo, you have the heating on practically full blast most of the time in winter, and the huge heating bills that go with it. Whilst I do not begrudge Elderly People their allowance, it irritates me that Disabled People do not have the same level of assitance (wonder if this contravines the DDA? Mmmm!)

What do others think?

In short i fully agree, I even asked to speak to a manager about this and i am still waiting for said managers call back (5 days and counting)

In short i fully agree, I even asked to speak to a manager about this and i am still waiting for said managers call back (5 days and counting)

A manager of what organisation/department? Isn't it the government who decide about Winter Fuel Allowance?

Would giving this heating allowance to everyone classed as disabled be a bit unnecessary? As for the argument that they spend more times indoors, I know lots of disabled people who work, but not too many of the elderly. Perhaps people who have circulatory problems or are physically incapacitated and who are at home most of the time should qualify, but I always assumed that extra benefits such as DLA were to pay for any extra expenses people have over those without disabilities.

In short i fully agree, I even asked to speak to a manager about this and i am still waiting for said managers call back (5 days and counting)

It's nothing to do with any local managers. It's Government policy.

Again, while I certainly agree that there are disabled people who could do with extra help as a direct result of their disability, you tell me exactly why a partially sighted person aged 25 (possibly in work) should receive help with fuel bills over and above a fully able bodied (possibly out of work) 25 year old?

i have to keep the house heated due to my daughters lung disease and cerebral palsy, i pay for it out of her dla

A manager of what organisation/department? Isn't it the government who decide about Winter Fuel Allowance?

Job Centre but got transfered left right and centre! and i find that when complaining it's best to start at the bottom (i have also complained to my MP)

Would giving this heating allowance to everyone classed as disabled be a bit unnecessary?

I agree fully people who have circulatory problems or are physically incapacitated and who are at home most of the time should qualify

but I always assumed that extra benefits such as DLA were to pay for any extra expenses people have over those without disabilities.

Indeed, however the total sum of the benifits are nothing like as high as a wage somebody like a call centre worker would get, also if you are able to work and need extra cash you can always (like i used to) work over time or get a 2nd job (again like i used to).

The truth is that everything has gone up in cost, case in point heating bills have gone up extortionately, but what has not gone up (enough to cover the cost of heating a std 2 bed house this winter) are benifits.

Job Centre but got transfered left right and centre! and i find that when complaining it's best to start at the bottom (i have also complained to my MP)

In this case though you'd be way wide of the mark then, as this relates to legislation, and is an automatically triggered payment from the Social Fund. No decisions are made by anyone in Jobcentre Plus, save for a couple of trivial qualifying conditions. Your MP is the only route to use.

I agree fully people who have circulatory problems or are physically incapacitated and who are at home most of the time should qualify

I have a feeling you're right in some respects, but how would this be assessed? We talked about this briefly earlier in the thread.

Indeed, however the total sum of the benifits are nothing like as high as a wage somebody like a call centre worker would get, also if you are able to work and need extra cash you can always (like i used to) work over time or get a 2nd job (again like i used to).

Many disabled people who work physically can't take another job though.

The truth is that everything has gone up in cost, case in point heating bills have gone up extortionately, but what has not gone up (enough to cover the cost of heating a std 2 bed house this winter) are benifits.

And a lot of other people who are on benefits, or a low wage have the same problems finding cash to pay the extra.

Again, I don't see the difference (pardon the pun) between a partially sighted person who is working and receives DLA, and a person who is out of work, of working age, and able bodied, with respect to paying heating bills.

I'm still playing Devil's Advocate to a certain extent, but how do we define the 'need'? How would it be assessed? How often would it be assessed? Would it be means tested? Would it be right to means test it?

I'm far from saying it shouldn't be looked at, but it's really a very tricky area to get into, I feel.

There's information on the Cold Weather Payment part way down this page (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6043288.stm). It also gives details of other help on offer from the Government.

Can't help on other benefits - they depend on an individual's situation. CAB has an online advice service (http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/)which covers benefits. I think many CABs also offer a free benefit check, you can find your nearest one here (http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/index/getadvice.htm#searchbox).

I think one of the reasons this section of the Forum was started was because it can be so damn difficult to find the information you need! If you don't know what's available, you can't find out about it, and there doesn't seem to be one central point that tells you what is available.

I don't just mean Government benefits, but things like Shopmobility scooter hire and the Community Bus Service for people with disabilities.

Thanks Dozy

Can I just add a note here for anyone who is interested, that one of the best sources of information I have ever come across is a book produced by the Disability Alliance called the Disability Rights Handbook . It is produced and updated once a year, and can be obtained at a reduced price if you are on benefits. It describes in detail the qualifying criteria for most of the various disability related benefits, how to apply for them and the appeal process if you are turned down. It also has a extensive section in the back detailing various other disability organisations/points of contact which may be useful.

I have personally found this book invaluable on more than one occasion. Although I am not saying that it replaces in any way, the help that a formally trained benefit advisor can give!

Again, I don't see the difference (pardon the pun) between a partially sighted person who is working and receives DLA, and a person who is out of work, of working age, and able bodied, with respect to paying heating bills.

I'm still playing Devil's Advocate to a certain extent, but how do we define the 'need'? How would it be assessed? How often would it be assessed? Would it be means tested? Would it be right to means test it?

I'm far from saying it shouldn't be looked at, but it's really a very tricky area to get into, I feel.

I seem to remember us having this discussion before :( HH and as I said before, the only way I could see it being assessed, is alongside the Medical Critera used in the DLA assessment. Eg, those with Medical Conditions which limit their mobility or cause cirulatory problems (hence they get cold easily) should be passported to received WFA!!!!!

In this case though you'd be way wide of the mark then, as this relates to legislation, and is an automatically triggered payment from the Social Fund. No decisions are made by anyone in Jobcentre Plus, save for a couple of trivial qualifying conditions. Your MP is the only route to use.

Which is why i also contacted them.



I have a feeling you're right in some respects, but how would this be assessed? We talked about this briefly earlier in the thread.

Not to sure, perhaps a look at different types of medical conditions and there ramifications, however I am sure that an assessment could be completed during the current changes that are being made.


Many disabled people who work physically can't take another job though.

Again this is something that can be looked into during the assessment.



And a lot of other people who are on benefits, or a low wage have the same problems finding cash to pay the extra.

But if they do not have a dissability stopping them from working, then surly they can get another job (as in 2 jobs or change the job they have) after all if your on benifits or unemployed your intitled to free education.

Again, I don't see the difference (pardon the pun) between a partially sighted person who is working and receives DLA, and a person who is out of work, of working age, and able bodied, with respect to paying heating bills.

Well the differance is one has a condition that limits the work they can do and the other is able but not employed?

I'm still playing Devil's Advocate to a certain extent, but how do we define the 'need'? How would it be assessed? How often would it be assessed? Would it be means tested? Would it be right to means test it?

I understand that your playing Devils Advocate need would be defined as not being able to pay to be kept warm enough to survive.

Assess it based on dissability, and no the OAP's are not means tested.

I'm far from saying it shouldn't be looked at, but it's really a very tricky area to get into, I feel.

I agree

I'd imagine there is a lot of people on low incomes who have a need for help with their heating bills.
Much more so than disabled people.
It would be unfair to provide help to disabled people when there are others with a greater need.

I'd imagine there is a lot of people on low incomes who have a need for help with their heating bills.
Much more so than disabled people.
It would be unfair to provide help to disabled people when there are others with a greater need.

I disagree, as those who are disabled cannot work due to disability, however those with out can work so should?

I am not highly educated but the longest I have ever been unemployed for is 2 weeks, I would clean loos or dig holes for a living if needs be the work is there if your prepared to do it!

Were talking about helping the people who cannot help themselves.

I disagree, as those who are disabled cannot work due to disability, however those with out can work so should?

I am not highly educated but the longest I have ever been unemployed for is 2 weeks, I would clean loos or dig holes for a living if needs be the work is there if your prepared to do it!

Were talking about helping the people who cannot help themselves.

Single mothers though, 16/17 children living on their own, people who won't be able to find jobs for a year or two when they lose them in the coming months.. the support they receive will be less than a disabled person in the first place, why should the disabled person get more help

I seem to remember us having this discussion before :( HH and as I said before, the only way I could see it being assessed, is alongside the Medical Critera used in the DLA assessment. Eg, those with Medical Conditions which limit their mobility or cause cirulatory problems (hence they get cold easily) should be passported to received WFA!!!!!

But limited mobility doesn't 'mean' needing extra warmth, does it? Again, some people who are partially sighted receive the mobility component of DLA, as well as the care component. It doesn't equate that they'd need extra help with bills.

I know lots of people who have circulatory problems who neither receive (nor would qualify for) DLA/AA nor Incap/ESA, who do suffer with cold. How would they be helped?

Thanks Dozy

Can I just add a note here for anyone who is interested, that one of the best sources of information I have ever come across is a book produced by the Disability Alliance called the Disability Rights Handbook . It is produced and updated once a year, and can be obtained at a reduced price if you are on benefits. It describes in detail the qualifying criteria for most of the various disability related benefits, how to apply for them and the appeal process if you are turned down. It also has a extensive section in the back detailing various other disability organisations/points of contact which may be useful.

I have personally found this book invaluable on more than one occasion. Although I am not saying that it replaces in any way, the help that a formally trained benefit advisor can give!

It certainly is an excellent publication; I've called it "The Bible(TM)" for years. You do need to know what you're doing though, as you can get sent hither, thither and yon. The Child Poverty Action Group's Welfare Benefits and Tax Credits Handbook is even better for those who do know their way about (especially in representation) as you have the direct reference to the relevant legislation.

I'd agree even more that seeking formal advice is better though!

Which is why i also contacted them.

Indeed!

Not to sure, perhaps a look at different types of medical conditions and there ramifications, however I am sure that an assessment could be completed during the current changes that are being made.

Which assessment? DLA or ESA? The two are related, but completely different.

Again this is something that can be looked into during the assessment.

No it can't. You can work and receive DLA, and thousands and thousands do. A successful claim to ESA would mean that in law you can't take one job regularly, let alone two.

But if they do not have a dissability stopping them from working, then surly they can get another job (as in 2 jobs or change the job they have) after all if your on benifits or unemployed your intitled to free education.

Not at all. Jobs may not always be available, and extra help is potentially available to all (well or not) through the Tax Credit system. Most pensioners wouldn't have this help on top of their pensions as they wouldn't be working.

People of working age can still receive DLA through all this if they qualify.

I'm not sure that I understand your point regarding education though.

Well the differance is one has a condition that limits the work they can do and the other is able but not employed?

So how does being partially sighted at 25 mean that there is a requirement for a heating allowance?

I understand that your playing Devils Advocate need would be defined as not being able to pay to be kept warm enough to survive.

Assess it based on dissability, and no the OAP's are not means tested.

So why would younger people who are disabled, yet working, be able to claim extra help over and above those who are able bodied? If you're looking at being able to pay bills to survive, then those on JSA who receive considerably less are arguably in a worse position financially, and would be colder.

I disagree, as those who are disabled cannot work due to disability, however those with out can work so should?

Take a look at my signature. This is one of the biggest parts of my argument. People who are disabled do work, in their thousands and thousands.

I am not highly educated but the longest I have ever been unemployed for is 2 weeks, I would clean loos or dig holes for a living if needs be the work is there if your prepared to do it!

Were talking about helping the people who cannot help themselves.

No. No. No. We're talking about people who have disabilities. A wholly different matter.

We are actually talking about people who are just different.
I dont hold with the view that people who have AS,dyspraxia,dyscalcula,psychophrenia,adhd,OCD etc have a disability.They have a neurological difference and many are at home due to societys inability to understand them and are definately underutilised in our society today.
The DWP and the Government cannot go on debating in parliament any longer about whether to support people with AS in to work.It is expensive, but it will save them money.
I fail to see why this is not crystal clear.:huh:

Each and every day, I talk to people with AS who face discrimination or ignorance.In the workplace, in the provision of services ,in society in general.
May people with AS are at home due to the fact that they cannot get a job.Many of them would love to have that opportunity and dont get it so maybe they should be considered also for this payment.

We are actually talking about people who are just different.
I dont hold with the view that people who have AS,dyspraxia,dyscalcula,psychophrenia,adhd,OCD etc have a disability.They have a neurological difference and many are at home due to societys inability to understand them and are definately underutilised in our society today.
The DWP and the Government cannot go on debating in parliament any longer about whether to support people with AS in to work.It is expensive, but it will save them money.
I fail to see why this is not crystal clear.:huh:

Because it's not crystal clear. It's also off topic.

Each and every day, I talk to people with AS who face discrimination or ignorance.In the workplace, in the provision of services ,in society in general.
May people with AS are at home due to the fact that they cannot get a job.Many of them would love to have that opportunity and dont get it so maybe they should be considered also for this payment.

Now you're way off topic. The WFA has no bearing on getting a job whatsoever. You have however, identified a set of circumstances which could mean payments going to people who don't need them.

You say that people with AS may not be able to get a job as a result, and so should be considered to receive a Winter Fuel Allowance. Tell me why their circumstances are any different from someone who has no (perceived) problems with regard to keeping warm?

1.You have a neurological difference and despite attempting on several occasions to get a job you dont get one and have to stay at home
2.As you do not have a job, you end up being in the house and can therefore be socially excluded.Many people who have AS are socially excluded anyway like people with mental health problems.
3. As a result of this you eventually have to put the heating on to keep warm just like old people do.
4. Your fuel bills go through the roof as if you could get and keep a job, then you would be out all day and you would not have to pay the heating bills.

This is not off topic.
It is suggesting that if you are different in some way then you are much more likely not to be in employment and therefore would be at home.

1.You have a neurological difference and despite attempting on several occasions to get a job you dont get one and have to stay at home

Which doesn't mean you're colder than others.

2.As you do not have a job, you end up being in the house and can therefore be socially excluded.Many people who have AS are socially excluded anyway like people with mental health problems.

Which doesn't mean you're colder than others.

3. As a result of this you eventually have to put the heating on to keep warm just like old people do.

Which doesn't mean you're colder than others of the same age, and general physical health.

4. Your fuel bills go through the roof as if you could get and keep a job, then you would be out all day and you would not have to pay the heating bills.

The same as other people who are out of work, and who may also be disadvantaged in the labour market.

This is not off topic.

Yes it is. Employment status means nothing.

It is suggesting that if you are different in some way then you are much more likely not to be in employment and therefore would be at home.

Which isn't the point. The WFA is there for older people who almost universally feel the cold more and are at risk of dying through hypothermia through the winter.

The thrust of the debate is about people with disabilities who may incur higher bills over and above the norm for the time of year. Using your argument above, then a WFA should be awarded to those on long term JSA, lone parents on IS, etc.

I would venture to suggest that a non disabled person who doesn't work gets very basic benefits, however someone who qualifies for DLA gets extra income, dependent on the severity of their condition, to cover various extra costs they face - wouldn't this include the cost of extra heating?

Care component
Lower rate is paid at £17.75 per week
Middle rate is paid at £44.85 per week
Higher rate is paid at £67.00 per week

Mobility component
Lower rate is paid at £17.75 per week
Higher rate is paid at £46.75 per week

A person who qualifies for the top rate of care and mobility will be getting in excess of £110 per week on top of any other income. The winter fuel allowance that a couple over 60 get = £250, or around £5 per week. Perhaps if the state pension had been kept in line with the cost of living, the WFA wouldn't have been necessary?

I would venture to suggest that a non disabled person who doesn't work gets very basic benefits, however someone who qualifies for DLA gets extra income, dependent on the severity of their condition, to cover various extra costs they face - wouldn't this include the cost of extra heating?

Well, that was the answer given to a forummer earlier on in the thread.

Care component
Lower rate is paid at £17.75 per week
Middle rate is paid at £44.85 per week
Higher rate is paid at £67.00 per week

Mobility component
Lower rate is paid at £17.75 per week
Higher rate is paid at £46.75 per week

A person who qualifies for the top rate of care and mobility will be getting in excess of £110 per week on top of any other income. The winter fuel allowance that a couple over 60 get = £250, or around £5 per week. Perhaps if the state pension had been kept in line with the cost of living, the WFA wouldn't have been necessary?

And this is one of the first places where the waters become particularly muddied. Take this winter for instance. If a single person who was on long term IB (which does still exist, just not for new claims), and also qualified for middle rate care as well as lower rate mobility (which I think is a reasonable starting point when taking into account potential heating problems), s/he'd have a cash amount of £164.85 pw.

Compare that to a single person on JSA who is over 25, and they receive £60.50 pw. Now granted, we all accepth that people who are off ill and have disabilities which culminate in extra help (and rightly so), but we're still talking about over £100 difference here, yet the 'mere jobseeker' still has to find the same difference.

I also agree about keeping pensions in line with the cost of living too, but the idea of the WFA is that larger bills can be paid in one go, rather than pensioners being harangued by their fuel provider.

The WFA can be as much as £400 too.

Can I just jump in here and point out, that to my knowledge, DLA is paid, in respect of extra physical or sociological care needs required by the disabled person. And nowhere have I ever seen it actually WRITTEN, that additional heating costs are figured into this amount!!!!!

And whilst we are on the subject, can I also point out that this thread was started as a discussion about the why's and wherefores, of Winter Fuel Allowance in respect of DISABLED PEOPLE. (although I appreciate that there may be an argument in favour of other needy groups receiving this benefit too)

Can we please stick to the subject!!!!! :mad:

Can I just jump in here and point out, that to my knowledge, DLA is paid, in respect of extra physical or sociological care needs required by the disabled person. And nowhere have I ever seen it actually WRITTEN, that additional heating costs are figured into this amount!!!!!

Agreed, but that was the response given earlier. There is no breakdown of £x for this, £y for that, so it may be read that extra heating costs could be seen as part of the reason for the award.

And whilst we are on the subject, can I also point out that this thread was started as a discussion about the why's and wherefores, of Winter Fuel Allowance in respect of DISABLED PEOPLE. (although I appreciate that there may be an argument in favour of other needy groups receiving this benefit too)

That's not in question, but other members of society have to be taken into account when discussing the eligibility, especially when looking at some of the conditions/disabilities described on this thread.

Can we please stick to the subject!!!!! :mad:

We have mods and me to do the modding in this group thanks :thumbsup: :hihi:

Single mothers though, 16/17 children living on their own, people who won't be able to find jobs for a year or two when they lose them in the coming months.. the support they receive will be less than a disabled person in the first place, why should the disabled person get more help

Child benifit for 16 kids must be a considerable sum?

Take a look at my signature. This is one of the biggest parts of my argument. People who are disabled do work, in their thousands and thousands.

And how many thousands cannot?



No. No. No. We're talking about people who have disabilities. A wholly different matter.

Yes. Yes. Yes. not to be blunt but there are some disabled people who cannot help themselves. I think it's great if they can but what about the ones that cannot?

I'm leaving this debate as i feel that it's going both off topic and round in circles which is just pointless

And how many thousands cannot?

That isn't the point though. We're talking about extra need because of different conditions, not the ability to work, or help themselves. People who cannot help themselves are just part of the wide spectrum of of people with difficulties.

Yes. Yes. Yes. not to be blunt but there are some disabled people who cannot help themselves. I think it's great if they can but what about the ones that cannot?

No. No. No. They would potentially be under the same umbrella as those with disabilities who are working, with regard to any help from a WFA, in the same way as they already are with DLA.

I'm leaving this debate as i feel that it's going both off topic and round in circles which is just pointless

In what way? A good proposition was made, but it's wrought with problems, both moral and practical. I don't see it going round in circles.

That isn't the point though. We're talking about extra need because of different conditions, not the ability to work, or help themselves. People who cannot help themselves are just part of the wide spectrum of of people with difficulties.

But it is the point, (hence the going round in Circles).

No. No. No. They would potentially be under the same umbrella as those with disabilities who are working, with regard to any help from a WFA, in the same way as they already are with DLA.

YES YES YES as people with varying disabilities receive varying rates of benefits

But it is the point, (hence the going round in Circles).

I'm really missing your point then, as I see this as about people who have disabilities and need the extra help from the state, rather than with disabilities and are in a situation which means they're reliant on benefits.

The WFA is there as it is generally agreed that pensioners had little to pay fuel bills with, and that they are in an unescapably vulnerable situation in the main, and also one which can't (and/or shouldn't) be rectified by work.

Are you suggesting that some means-testing should be in place for this, over and above any DLA award, for example?

YES YES YES as people with varying disabilities receive varying rates of benefits

And many with disabilities still receive benefits whilst in work, and many with disabilities receive little help.

Again, not all people who are disabled receive benefits; some who are disabled can't receive benefits; some who could refuse to receive benefits.

The world of disability doesn't centre upon benefits.

This is why I'm trying to open up the debate on both sides of the benefits fence, and to ask for reasons why those of a working age should have recourse to such a fund, and how.

Simply saying "They can't get a job.", or "They're on benefits." and the like isn't constructive. Sorry to be blunt. I've given several reasons why I think such payments would be discriminatory to other members of society who are potentially worse off financially than others.

I would love to hear structured thoughts and reasons though, as to who should receive a payment, as I think there is mileage in this.

That isn't the point though. We're talking about extra need because of different conditions, not the ability to work, or help themselves. People who cannot help themselves are just part of the wide spectrum of of people with difficulties.



No. No. No. They would potentially be under the same umbrella as those with disabilities who are working, with regard to any help from a WFA, in the same way as they already are with DLA.

No. Because if they are working then they are out all day and would not need to put on the heating and therefore not need to claim WFA would they.
Compare a pensioner to a 25 year old who has AS and has applied for several jobs and, due to no fault of his own has been unsuccessful.
He is at home all day, like the pensioner may be( or some may not be).
He will be cold and will not be able to afford to put the heating on(like pensioners).
People with disabilities(like pensioners) can get a free bus pass as they may not always able to drive. If they can get a free bus pass like pensioners why wouldnt they qualify for a WFA?
Anyway this will go nowhere.Even if the Government did agree to look at it,it would take so long for it ever to come to pass that they will no longer be in power and the cycle will start all over again with campaigning and lobbying the new Government.The world is beurocratic.It really isnt worth the fight.

Which doesn't mean you're colder than others.



Which doesn't mean you're colder than others.



Which doesn't mean you're colder than others of the same age, and general physical health.



The same as other people who are out of work, and who may also be disadvantaged in the labour market.



Yes it is. Employment status means nothing.



Which isn't the point. The WFA is there for older people who almost universally feel the cold more and are at risk of dying through hypothermia through the winter.

The thrust of the debate is about people with disabilities who may incur higher bills over and above the norm for the time of year. Using your argument above, then a WFA should be awarded to those on long term JSA, lone parents on IS, etc.

Those on long term JSA,lone parents etc should really be in employment though shouldnt they?..As people with disabilities should be but it isnt happening is it?

No. Because if they are working then they are out all day and would not need to put on the heating and therefore not need to claim WFA would they.

Once again, you're not addressing my point. Aside from that, the WFA is automatically triggered at present. Only very occasionally would people have to physically claim it.

Compare a pensioner to a 25 year old who has AS and has applied for several jobs and, due to no fault of his own has been unsuccessful.

Just like someone who is on JSA in the long term, who will (probably) receive fewer benefits and less cash than the person with AS as it is.

He is at home all day, like the pensioner may be( or some may not be).
He will be cold and will not be able to afford to put the heating on(like pensioners).

Two points, again. Firstly, this is just the same as the person on JSA (we'll make him 25 too). The person with AS (and I'm only using this as you've brought it up) is young, and very probably physically healthy. He almost certainly won't feel the cold as much as the pensioner. It's possible (though by no means certain) that he'd receive more in benefits than the single person on JSA with no perceived disabilities.

Why is there a difference between the two? To put it very bluntly, since when did having AS make a physically healthy 25 year old feel the cold more than another physically healthy 25 year old?

People with disabilities(like pensioners) can get a free bus pass as they may not always able to drive. If they can get a free bus pass like pensioners why wouldnt they qualify for a WFA?

You're comparing apples with oranges. What the hell do bus passes and Winter Fuel Allowances have in common in this debate?

Anyway this will go nowhere.Even if the Government did agree to look at it,it would take so long for it ever to come to pass that they will no longer be in power and the cycle will start all over again with campaigning and lobbying the new Government.The world is beurocratic.It really isnt worth the fight.

Think about how long it took for DLA/AA to become stable (at the least), and they survived a change of Government, and there's nothing to say that there definitely will be a change in Government.

It's still worth looking at, but I'm looking for a way to assess it, without creating a huge layer of confusion. Obviously there would be some confusion, and there would have to be a cut off point, and it may even impinge on certain DLA awards, but I can't quite see it yet.

I'm sure we could get there though, but we need to 'factor out' a lot of situations.

Those on long term JSA,lone parents etc should really be in employment though shouldnt they?..As people with disabilities should be but it isnt happening is it?

That's a red herring, as the idea of this WFA (as I see it) is with regard to disability, not the ability to work. Aside from that, most Lone Parents aren't obliged to look for work in any case.

Many long term JSA claimants have problems themselves too, such as being borderline cases for IB/ESA.

This is why looking at different components of DLA as being qualifying criteria needs to be scrutinised, and hence the comparison with physically healthy people who are also badly off.

Again this is what i mean about going round in Circles we seem to be stuck in a bit of rut!

OK then, let's look at it a different way. Can anyone see a trigger point whereby a new assessment wouldn't be needed?

If so, or if not, can anyone think of a point where an award could be given, without an assessment, which would be fair?

I'm not sure if the Special Rules passport to a WFA at the moment, but that might be one extreme version.

I don't want to limit it to benefits, or even local authority help. Any point which could be reasonably argued.

Again this is what i mean about going round in Circles we seem to be stuck in a bit of rut!

I'm inclined to agree with TY on this, we are merrily going round in circles with this and not really getting anywhere!!!

And with the greatest respect HH, I'm inclined to think you are contributing to the problem by taking some of what has been said out of context.

The ability of disabled people to work or not, is not the issue here, but the availability of a allowance for those in society who because of their ilnesses, need help with additional heating costs.

I think espedrille had a valid point in so much as elderly people are granted free bus passes, as are disabled people.....but the same does not apply to the WFA.....it does seem to smack a little of double standards!

Thanks Merlina!

No offence intended to HH you have some good points and it’s never easy playing devils advocate (although it can be fun)

I'm inclined to agree with TY on this, we are merrily going round in circles with this and not really getting anywhere!!!

And with the greatest respect HH, I'm inclined to think you are contributing to the problem by taking some of what has been said out of context.

The ability of disabled people to work or not, is not the issue here, but the availability of a allowance for those in society who because of their ilnesses, need help with additional heating costs.

I think espedrille had a valid point in so much as elderly people are granted free bus passes, as are disabled people.....but the same does not apply to the WFA.....it does seem to smack a little of double standards!

I don't think it was out of context at all, as espadrille's point was based on an inability to find work, not disability. There are many healthy people who face the same problem. There still isn't a valid explanation from anyone to explain why there should be a difference between two younger, physically healthy people with regard to WFA.

I've said several times over that I do think it's worth looking at, but focusing on employment status, as you agree, is wrong.

By the same token, there are many younger disabled people who would have no need for an allowance.

So there must be an assessment. I'm uncomfortable about incorporating this into DLA, as we all know that there are many people who are disabled who don't receive DLA for a multitude of reasons from poor decision making at the DCS to total confusion over the form itself.

Another thing to consider is the qualifying period. As things stand at the moment, the WFA is age related, for reasons I've already outlined. Granted, this could include people who don't need a WFA, but in the main, I think it's generally accepted that most will.

Even so, people have to be a certain age by a specific date in the year to qualify. Few have to claim the WFA, as most by the qualifying date will be in receipt of a qualifying benefit. How do we avoid people having to claim every year, with the same kerfuffle?

What about people who are working, yet have to be kept warmer? They're going to have to go through the same thing too, especially if they're not in receipt of DLA, say? Even if there were to be a blanket 'marker' on Government systems, these people could fall through the net.

There are so many more variables with younger people with disabilities which need to be looked at. This can't realistically be done by putting a blanket over everyone who has a disability.

Come on! I didn't wan't to stifle this, but if there's going to be a push (which I think is right) we need to think of how it can be done!

Tell us all who should receive a WFA without thinking about current laws. How about one week where we put our ideas together with no arguments, starting from the first suggestion, and then we discuss it again?

Just to lighten the mood of this dicussion thought I would share this with you,

I was in the post office behind an elderly couple who were drawing out their pensions, their WFA had just gone in, it made me smile when they took their money and said " thats our spending money for Tenerife until we come home in March!"

Great way to keep warm I guess, god bless em :)

Bearing in mind the recent cold weather, I thought I'd bring this Thread 'out of hibernation' and ask again, if anyone has an opinion about making the WINTER FUEL ALLOWANCE available to disabled people, as well as the elderly.

Opinions Please.....................

Bearing in mind the recent cold weather, I thought I'd bring this Thread 'out of hibernation' and ask again, if anyone has an opinion about making the WINTER FUEL ALLOWANCE available to disabled people, as well as the elderly.

Opinions Please.....................

Yes, it should be available to the disabled. Also, the government should pull their fingers out of their backsides, find their <removed> and demand that the energy companies stop ripping everyone off!

I think the elderly should have enough money so they don't have to hope they get an extra degree of cold to trigger a payment. I think perhaps benefits for those with disabillities could be targeted according to physical need. That is people with circulatory problems arthritis etc. That is people whose specific condition requires more than average heating. You have it regards the mobility component so surely you can do it regards heating or other extra energy requirements due to disabillity. This waiting to see if the government will throw some money our way is both stressful and demeaning.

I'd imagine it's because it's generally accepted that the elderly (whether disabled or not) will often need to be kept warmer than younger people (whether disabled or not).

Playing Devil's Advocate, to some extent, there are many elderly people who need to have the heating on regularly but don't receive a top-up such as AA to their pension to help further with fuel bills.

Some younger people who do receive DLA may not need to be kept as warm; the blind, the deaf, for example.

Probably a more pertinent point is that you'll never stop being elderly (apart from .....), but you may stop being 'legally' disabled. DLA awards (the only way that I could really see such a scheme working in tandem with) aren't always for long terms, and even then if they're fixed terms, it's unlikely to be a higher care award.

That's my Devil's Advocate bit for now, but how would people decide exactly which disabled people would receive an allowance? Tell me!

i am 42 and receive the high rate of both parts of dla,i have a severe heart condition and yes i have the heating on all the time now as i feel the cold more than my parents,i have dla for life,but i can not get help with fuel allowance,i don't even qualify for British gas essentials tariff because apparently i earn over twenty two thousand a year,as they take everything into account like housing benefit council tax benefit dla child benefit income support and child tax credit,so i have to pay the standard tariff which apparently is the dearest,some thing not right there,but who in government really cares,my moaning finished sorry