Hi there,
I am interested in the William Plommer murder. My name is Mary Anne Plommer and I live in Glasgow. I think William Plommer was my dad's brother. My dad was called James Scott PLommer and he was born in Scotstoun in 1910. His dad worked as a riveter in the shipyards. His mother died when he was 4 years old. I know my dad had another brother Alex, and three sisters Mary Anne who move to America, and Dolly and Chrissie who stayed in Glasgow. My dad also had step-brothers Tommy and Harry. I think they lived in Scotstoun. My dad died in 1974 aged 64 years. He spent much of his life in the army and was a Japanese POW for almost 4 years. I remember hearing of a family member who was murdered in Sheffield by a gang who used weapons but I'd like to find out more about it. Can anybody provide more information or even suggest a book on the subject.
Much appreciated,
Mary Anne Plommer

http://www.real-crime.co.uk/Murder1/docf.htm#Fowler,

Look for the entries on Wilfred and Lawrence Fowler, they were the ones hanged for murdering your relative.

Look for a book called "The Sheffield Gang Wars", by JP Bean. http://www.amazon.com/Sheffield-Gang-Wars-J-Bean/dp/0950764507

Has more background on the events and circumstances that helped lead up to the murder. Great read too!

Hello Mary,

There's a book called 'Sheffield Gang Wars' (or something very similar), written by a local historian called J.P.Bean, which I'm sure has a chapter all about William Plommer. If I remember correctly, he was killed on a street close to Norfolk Railway Bridge in the Attercliffe area of Sheffield, by a couple of brothers.

Edit:- Mick (above) beat me to it by a couple of minutes!!!

Hi there,
I am interested in the William Plommer murder. My name is Mary Anne Plommer and I live in Glasgow. I think William Plommer was my dad's brother. My dad was called James Scott PLommer and he was born in Scotstoun in 1910. His dad worked as a riveter in the shipyards. His mother died when he was 4 years old. I know my dad had another brother Alex, and three sisters Mary Anne who move to America, and Dolly and Chrissie who stayed in Glasgow. My dad also had step-brothers Tommy and Harry. I think they lived in Scotstoun. My dad died in 1974 aged 64 years. He spent much of his life in the army and was a Japanese POW for almost 4 years. I remember hearing of a family member who was murdered in Sheffield by a gang who used weapons but I'd like to find out more about it. Can anybody provide more information or even suggest a book on the subject.
Much appreciated,
Mary Anne Plommer
princess street is where jock met his end,although accounts of the murder weapon differ,as does the identity of the murderer,the popular story being jock was stabbed,however,an old bloke i used to visit swears he was battered to death with a kiddies scooter,this was backed up by an old neighbour of jocks,who was a child at the time it happened.
the fowler brothers were hanged for the murder,but protested their innocence till the day they were hanged,the general belief was that gangleader sam garvin was the culprit,who hopped on a passing tram,commited an offence in the wicker,establishing an alibi for his whereabouts at the time...fact or myth,i don,t know,but all the above was told to me over 20 years ago by a princess street resident and someone who lived quite close to the said road,2 different blokes who,s paths had never crossed. hope this has been some help to you.

......if only stabbing to death was sentenced in court as then !..... nowadays this "incident" (as it would be called today) would have seen the "murderer " getting "off " with manslaughter , and sentenced to around 6-7 years ? ,but with "good behaviour" !!!!!!!! be out in about 3!!!!! (so much for progression!!) anyway - TRUTHFUL rant over - WHY has'nt the Sheffield Gang Wars been made into a film???

Thank you okismoke and sandy b for getting back to me . Much appreciated.
Mary Anne

Thanks gremlin mick, DarkoaK, okismoki and sandyb for getting back to me re the murder of my relative. Much appreciated. I intend to buy the book by J P Bean on the Sheffield Gang Wars.
regards,
Mary Anne

no problem,its a tale i have repeated many times,i just wish old george nicholls and harry owen were alive today,i would have taped what they told me and sent it you,words from 2 children who witnessed it.

......if only stabbing to death was sentenced in court as then !..... nowadays this "incident" (as it would be called today) would have seen the "murderer " getting "off " with manslaughter , and sentenced to around 6-7 years ? ,but with "good behaviour" !!!!!!!! be out in about 3!!!!! (so much for progression!!) anyway - TRUTHFUL rant over - WHY has'nt the Sheffield Gang Wars been made into a film???
with todays dna techniques it would be a lot harder to carry out capital punishment on an innocent person,nothing seems to deter criminals nowadays,and,as you say,the sentences are a joke,but the general public are the only ones not laughing.
i totally agree the sheffield gang wars should be made into a film,how about ken loach to make it???

princess street is where jock met his end,although accounts of the murder weapon differ,as does the identity of the murderer,the popular story being jock was stabbed,however,an old bloke i used to visit swears he was battered to death with a kiddies scooter,this was backed up by an old neighbour of jocks,who was a child at the time it happened.
the fowler brothers were hanged for the murder,but protested their innocence till the day they were hanged,the general belief was that gangleader sam garvin was the culprit,who hopped on a passing tram,commited an offence in the wicker,establishing an alibi for his whereabouts at the time...fact or myth,i don,t know,but all the above was told to me over 20 years ago by a princess street resident and someone who lived quite close to the said road,2 different blokes who,s paths had never crossed. hope this has been some help to you.
My fathers family lived nearby.His older brother told me (and it was a big secret),that they were told by their father not to go out that night as trouble was brewing. He eventually told me that the killer jumped on a tram to the Wicker and attacked a passerby in front of a policeman .This gave him his alibi.The knife went into a furnace,the furnaceman being told to turn round and look away if he knew what was good for him.He did finally tell me the killers name but I cant remember it.I did write it in a diary at the time (about 1989).This was a massive secret for many years.It confirms what you said.

My fathers family lived nearby.His older brother told me (and it was a big secret),that they were told by their father not to go out that night as trouble was brewing. He eventually told me that the killer jumped on a tram to the Wicker and attacked a passerby in front of a policeman .This gave him his alibi.The knife went into a furnace,the furnaceman being told to turn round and look away if he knew what was good for him.He did finally tell me the killers name but I cant remember it.I did write it in a diary at the time (about 1989).This was a massive secret for many years.It confirms what you said.
the supposed killer was sam garvin.

Am eagerly awaiting delivery of J P Bean's book on the Gang Wars especially if there is a chapter about my uncle in it. I just took it for granted that the Fowler brothers were guilty and never knew there was any debate about the verdict.....so am very interested to learn more. Looking for newspaper reports of the what happened to see if that can shed further light on what happened. Court transcripts would also be useful but not sure if the public (even related members) can access these. Any ideas?

i work with the elderly,a lot of the people i worked with lived in that particular area around the time of the murder,most of them believed the fowler brothers were innocent,many of them knew the fowlers and jock, jock wasn,t a bloke to be messed with,thats why they went mob handed,whoever the murderer,it was cowardly going mob handed,even more cowardly to take part,all who were there on that fateful day were guilty of something,if not murder,then assault at the very least.

Am eagerly awaiting delivery of J P Bean's book on the Gang Wars especially if there is a chapter about my uncle in it. I just took it for granted that the Fowler brothers were guilty and never knew there was any debate about the verdict.....so am very interested to learn more. Looking for newspaper reports of the what happened to see if that can shed further light on what happened. Court transcripts would also be useful but not sure if the public (even related members) can access these. Any ideas?

Maryanne. if this topic goes quiet for a month or two, then give it a nudge back into the top ten, people sometimes miss topics or new people join, I imagine there must be relatives of Sam Garvin around, who might have another angle on it. Sam Garvin is part of Sheffield folklore, along with George Mooney another gang leader, whose great grand daughter has been on the forum.
Good luck

Thanks for ideas and comments to all who posted. Will keep in contact.
Cheers,
Maryanne

hi there i have a book about burngreave cemetary and theres the story of your relative.My grandfather was a friend of the brothers or so ive been told.This is what it says; The crime in the 1920'swas gang led,the heads of the two gangs Sam Garvin and George Mooney,had originally operated the pitch and toss rings at sky edge together,but like most criminals,they fell out and became bitter enemies. Princess street meets attercliffe rd at Norfolk Bridge close to the city centre, Housing consisted of back to back houses and courts, with an ample supply of public houses,many of them contributing to the gangland funds for the promise of safety. On Sunday evenin, April 26th 1925 a stranger to the area ,Harold Liversage, had ventured in to the windsor hotel on princess street, where Wilfred Fowler and friends happened to be having a drink. On leaving Fowler followed him in to the street and smashed him in the face. Blooded, he moved away up the street and came across William (jock) Francis Plommer, outside his home at number 42 asking him for help. Jock Plommer was a formidable character, he had served through the great war as a sergeant and practised amateur boxing, then he was working as a labourer at Bessemer & co.He agreed to accompany liversage back to the windsor,but only to ensure that there could be a fair fight, one that gave Lawrence the chance to gain revenge.After the affray as Fowler got up from the ground he turned to Plommer and told him he would return to get him! The following night,up to 12 members of the park brigade were reported in the pubs around the wicker and later they paraded up and down Princess Street as a crowd gathered sensing the trouble.Jock plommer left his house and offered to fight them all individually, alas he was jumped on and severely beaten,returning to his house bleeding heavily,he collapsed and within a short time died. Nine of the gang were arrested,however only two were to stand trial at Leeds for the murder. Wilfred (23) and Lawrance (25) Fowler, they were found guilty and executed at armley jail,the younger brother on sept3rd 1925,and his brother the following morning. At the funeral of 'jock' Plommer his son wore his medal,over 8,000 sightseers were present in the cemetary. I found my greatgrandads grave in the same cemetary i can get in touch with them and they take photos of graves if you want me too. I hope this was helpful to you.

So Maryanne
You've got a cousin to find as well, that should keep you busy. He was a long way from Scotland, perhaps met his wife during the war, Sheffield Girl, so son born after war. That would still put your cousin in his late 80s. So you would be looking for the next generation
There are no Plommers in Sheffield in the 1939 Kelly's in fact No. 42 Princess St. had gone by then as well.
One or two people on this Forum can check other dates for you. The people on here will probably be able to find him (or them) for you, they get their teeth into something like this, they are like Terriers (Yorkshire not Highland).
Good Luck

Hi there,
Thanks Jessiet and Tooeg for responding to my post. Very welcome information and suggestions. Would not like to put you to any trouble Jessiet regarding the picture of the grave but if it's not too much of a hardship then it would be appreciated.
I read about Willaim Francis Plommer in a post by Fran. I believe she is a relative of mine. Fran wrote that after the murder the Plommer family moved to Glasgow and then the extended family moved to Canada. Would love to hear from you Fran if you are still contributing to the forum. Delighted with the responses I have had on the Forum. Keep the information and suggestions coming...all are most welcome.
regards, Maryanne

hi mary my late father used to talk about the plommer murder he told us he was a friend of tom,william plommers son and was in the plommer house on princess st when the murder occurred.my father said someone came to the house to warn [jock] that gang members were on the street wanting him to come out onto the street jock told the boys to stay in the house.curiosity took over and the boys went outside and saw what happened.my father said jock was attacked by a number of men,he offered to fight them individually but they refused.my father said he saw pokers used as well as fists.my mum lived near burngreave cemetary and said the funeral was attended by crowds of people and was like a state funeral.its only a small amount of info but i hope it helps.

about 30 years ago there was a play about the murder at the crucible .

i have just found out that i am related to the fowlers, but due to stubborn relations, concealing the history surrounding this branch of my family, i have hit a dead end, i have the book etc, so any other family willing to divulge the missing info, it would be muchly appreciated. cheers all & have a happy new year

hi hotrock i am also related to the fowlers on my mothers side she is carol fowler daughter of albert who was cousen to the hanged brothers,
i to seem to have a dead end but from what i can find out is that the brothers were indeed part of the gang that attacked plommer and never denied the fact but did not do the fatel blow hence the not guilty plee.
how are you related?

my grandads mother was annie elizabeth fowler, who was lawrence & wilfred's sister, so i think that makes me a great great nephew, but unsure, :thumbsup:

Hi there,
I am interested in the William Plommer murder. My name is Mary Anne Plommer and I live in Glasgow. I think William Plommer was my dad's brother. My dad was called James Scott PLommer and he was born in Scotstoun in 1910. His dad worked as a riveter in the shipyards. His mother died when he was 4 years old. I know my dad had another brother Alex, and three sisters Mary Anne who move to America, and Dolly and Chrissie who stayed in Glasgow. My dad also had step-brothers Tommy and Harry. I think they lived in Scotstoun. My dad died in 1974 aged 64 years. He spent much of his life in the army and was a Japanese POW for almost 4 years. I remember hearing of a family member who was murdered in Sheffield by a gang who used weapons but I'd like to find out more about it. Can anybody provide more information or even suggest a book on the subject.
Much appreciated,
Mary Anne Plommer

Hi Mary,

My Great Grandfather was William Francis Plommer. My Granda is Thomas (Tommy) Plommer his son. My Granda died in the 80's. His family had moved back up to Scotland (Glasgow) after the murder and my Granda grew up there and married my Granny (Mary King) and they had 4 sons... everyone moved to Canada in the late 60's early 70's. I'm not sure if this helps at all.

Take good care,

Frances Mary Plommer

i am certain that william francis plommer is my great-grandfather

he was murdered for helping someone.

whilst my grand father was out on the day of his murder..

my father tells me the story even tho it is a book now

my grandmother tell me the story also

be nice if anyone has anything to tell me about william if they knew him or whatever!!

Hi Mary,

My Great Grandfather was William Francis Plommer. My Granda is Thomas (Tommy) Plommer his son. My Granda died in the 80's. His family had moved back up to Scotland (Glasgow) after the murder and my Granda grew up there and married my Granny (Mary King) and they had 4 sons... everyone moved to Canada in the late 60's early 70's. I'm not sure if this helps at all.

Take good care,

Frances Mary Plommer

hey frances,

my great uncle is called tommy and sadly he is pasted now and he has sons called tommy and alexander who are my fathers cousins.

I saw the play, it was very poor, kept banging on aboutg some boxing match, completely missed the point.

Why doesnt someone write a film script ? Sean Bean as George Mooney, Mark Hudson as Sam garvin, Dominic West as Sillitoe??????about 30 years ago there was a play about the murder at the crucible .

I saw the play, it was very poor, kept banging on aboutg some boxing match, completely missed the point.

Why doesnt someone write a film script ? Sean Bean as George Mooney, Mark Hudson as Sam garvin, Dominic West as Sillitoe??????

Yes, believe it or not I went to see it with Jayne Elston who we mentioned in another thread about a pub.

My great uncle Amos Stuart was sentenced to ten years in that trial for manslaughter. Another man got seven years.

I have considerable information about the 'Plommers' after the y move to Glasgow.

I have info. about the 'Plommer' family after they moved to Glasgow

As a boy I lived next door to the Plommer family when the moved to Glasgow. Anyone interested?

My father's family lived on Princess Street and the story my father was told about the Fowler Brothers was that one of them was actually in a pub at the time of the murder and was hanged for no reason. My father got this information from the Landlady of the pub at the time and she was scared to say anything. Not sure which pub it was and unfortunately my father passed away 7 years ago so I can't ask him.

in the nineties there was a tommy plommer came over from canada to play ice hockey for the steelers,any relation ?

The Plommers moved to Whiteinch in Glasgow as they feared for their lives. The family lived next door to my grandparents in a row of tenements buildings referred to as the gangway. Mrs Plommer her two sons Alex and Tommy and her two daughters Joan and +++. I was born in 1940 and my mum and dad and me lived with my granddad. My grannie was long since dead - I never knew her - she died because there was no money for medicine. As I grew up I was always welcomed by Mrs Plommer and I enjoyed the many stories from her unending experiences. Mrs Plommer often came in for a bowl of sugar and remained to enjoy a cup of tea. As both my grannies were dead, none of whom I knew, Mrs Plommer was the closest I had to a grannie. Her daughters were pleasant and always spoke to me. Unfortunately her two sons were a real pair of vagabonds and were continually in trouble often with the police. There were many fights in the house accompanied by the women screaming. As a young boy I was terrified when the fights raged and I was happy when they moved out. Sorry if I have upset any descendants, but I can only tell the truth. On one occasion as my dad helped one of them up the stairs, who was drunk and had been in a fight, he slipped his hand inside my dad's pocket to see if he had a wallet. He left blood inside my dad's jacket. Take care when doing a good turn.
I played with Billy Speirs and I think his name was Tommy Plommer. And a number of years ago I met Mr and Mrs Speirs in a council old peoples home. I think that will do for now. Enjoy- I hope. My surname is Hopson. My dad came from Scotstoun building and my mother was a Dougherty

i have just found out that i am related to the fowlers, but due to stubborn relations, concealing the history surrounding this branch of my family, i have hit a dead end, i have the book etc, so any other family willing to divulge the missing info, it would be muchly appreciated. cheers all & have a happy new yeari am also related to the fowlers but have hit the brick wall all so secretive but i join via the stanfields and the goddards i know there is alink but have never found it yours j

I am a related to a Sheffield gang member and have been told the reason plommer was killed was that an invalid guy who played the piano in several pubs had been robbed and left for dead and they held plommer responsible

Hi there,
I am interested in the William Plommer murder. My name is Mary Anne Plommer and I live in Glasgow. I think William Plommer was my dad's brother. My dad was called James Scott PLommer and he was born in Scotstoun in 1910. His dad worked as a riveter in the shipyards. His mother died when he was 4 years old. I know my dad had another brother Alex, and three sisters Mary Anne who move to America, and Dolly and Chrissie who stayed in Glasgow. My dad also had step-brothers Tommy and Harry. I think they lived in Scotstoun. My dad died in 1974 aged 64 years. He spent much of his life in the army and was a Japanese POW for almost 4 years. I remember hearing of a family member who was murdered in Sheffield by a gang who used weapons but I'd like to find out more about it. Can anybody provide more information or even suggest a book on the subject.
Much appreciated,
Mary Anne Plommer

My elderly relative new the fowler brothers who hung for this murder, and always said that they didnt do it. It all points at sam garvin.

Oh grandad (born 1899), where are you when I need you? As I recall he wasn't convinced about the verdict passed on the Fowlers. Grandad used to earn money as a spotter on the Sky Edde tossing ring, he knew that the police were bent, and simply had to tell Mooney/Garvin when they were coming for their pay off.

He once had a cut throat razor put to his throat on Scotland St, when George Mooney said "leave him alone, he's alright".

The question appears to be that of where Garvin was at the time of the murder, I'm certain that a few long dead coppers could could have answered that.

See this thread for more info; http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=5628

The Plommers moved to Whiteinch in Glasgow as they feared for their lives. The family lived next door to my grandparents in a row of tenements buildings referred to as the gangway. Mrs Plommer her two sons Alex and Tommy and her two daughters Joan and +++. I was born in 1940 and my mum and dad and me lived with my granddad. My grannie was long since dead - I never knew her - she died because there was no money for medicine. As I grew up I was always welcomed by Mrs Plommer and I enjoyed the many stories from her unending experiences. Mrs Plommer often came in for a bowl of sugar and remained to enjoy a cup of tea. As both my grannies were dead, none of whom I knew, Mrs Plommer was the closest I had to a grannie. Her daughters were pleasant and always spoke to me. Unfortunately her two sons were a real pair of vagabonds and were continually in trouble often with the police. There were many fights in the house accompanied by the women screaming. As a young boy I was terrified when the fights raged and I was happy when they moved out. Sorry if I have upset any descendants, but I can only tell the truth. On one occasion as my dad helped one of them up the stairs, who was drunk and had been in a fight, he slipped his hand inside my dad's pocket to see if he had a wallet. He left blood inside my dad's jacket. Take care when doing a good turn.
I played with Billy Speirs and I think his name was Tommy Plommer. And a number of years ago I met Mr and Mrs Speirs in a council old peoples home. I think that will do for now. Enjoy- I hope. My surname is Hopson. My dad came from Scotstoun building and my mother was a Dougherty

the Speirs are my cousins ... I'm Maricela Plommer my dad is Alexander Plommer his parents are Hannah and Alexander Plommer. its interesting to read about my family past other peoples memories of them thank you for writing your story!!

My mum lived on Princess St.Her maiden name was Brown,she married Ted Fowler which was coincidental to this case because my dads family were from the Harvest Lane area.Although he did have relations on the Wybourn,so I don't know if we're related to the infamous brothers?All I know is,I always feel a little uncomfortable when wearing a tie.