I’ve just joined a gym (greens) and I’ve noticed there is a ladies only separate room. This room has more equipment etc.

Now, I know there maybe reasons for this, but is it fair I pay the same amount for membership as a woman, but I only get to use 90% of the facilities?

I’m not making an sexist point here before anyone jumps on me, I’m just asking, do you think this is fair?

Only if there is a 'men only' section :mad:

Some PEOPLE are put off by excercising in front of the opposite sex, it's not just women, so men should get the same priveleges.

Perhaps you should suggest this room is available to each sex on alternate days :D

Of course, the extra equipment may be specifically for burning off cellulite :suspect:

I think it's unfair too! Slighty off topic, but there was a youth club in Hillsborough when I was a kid that was boys only. (It was imaginitively called 'The Boys Club' :roll: ) Apparrently it had to let girls in because it couldn't get funding from the council. Sometimes sexism only seems to work one way!

Well, I'm certainly not about to 'jump on you' :) but I do know from my own experience that a few times whilst at the gym (where I go there is no special ladies area) I have had unwanted sexual 'advances' from blokes which has put me off going a bit (think it must be all the testosterene flying around!). Once a man even tried to kiss me in the sauna.

I have never heard of this happening to a bloke, so whilst I agree that men should have a seperate area too, I can see that it might mean more to certain women. Perhaps we should swop gym memberships!

I'm a member of Greens and can assure you the ladies only area has no more equipment than the other areas. It actually doesn't have all the resistance machines that the main resistance area has. I don't think this is sexist...I too have been approached when I have been trying to work out, men don't seem to understand that I am feeling self concious enough as it is when I am training and to be approached makes me feel even worse. I know men aren't all the same but I think they only have each other to blame for the existence of ladies only areas. Some men don't seem to understand that there is a time and a place for coming on to women and that the gym definitely isn't one of them! I haven't ever yet met a woman that's approached a man in a gym or a man that's been approached so this really does seem to be a male thing, hence there being ladies only areas. Sorry guys...but you bring it upon yourself.

Well I didn't mean to suggest that men bring it upon themselves. Certainly none of my male friends and probably not serapis either. Men definitely are not all the same. Its just another case of the few spoiling it for the many, unfortunately!

I think a better solution than female only areas would be to tackle the problem head on with massive signs saying THIS IS A GYM NOT A MEAT MARKET or KEEP YOUR TROUSER SNAKE IN ITS CAGE or COOL DOWN THERE TESTOSTERONE BOY. Or perhaps a system where staff could send little electric shocks to the machines of persistent offenders!

firstly, why 'kathythebean' I'm just curious thats all, not wanting to start a daft row with you!

Why not have a seperate ladies area in the gym? A lot of men just cannot be trusted to leave us alone and thats sexual harassment. Apart from that, does the ladies area have lighter equipment? Women in general aren't as physically strong as men - we're just mentally & emotionally stronger and have a higher pain threshold thats all! If a man can't have a cold without it being flu or pneumonia, how the heck would he be able to go through child birth? If men had babies the human race would be extinct. I'll just add, not ALL men are the same before someone gets on my case, its's a few of the male race that gives the rest of them a bad name. Men, if you see another man tormenting a woman don't just stand there thinking 'this isn't right' say what's on your mind, if that happened more often the world wouldn't be so anti-men!

Damn, I was after a daft row :)

My boyfriend's nick name for me is 'bean' - as in, "heres a cup of tea, beanie" or "you're standing on my foot, bean", or "where's my bean" etc. So kathythebean it is. Also I'm very fond of beans.

I agree that men should stick up for women more. However, I think it would be a lot better if women stuck up for other women, too. There are lots of girls who LOVE that kind of attention and encourage it, they are just as much to blame as men who stand back and say nothing. Until all women say 'that is enough' some dicks will keep trying cos they know every other woman will fall for it!

Thanks for the vote of confidence kathythebean. I'll keep an eye open for the woman in the sauna with a cricket bat :)

Lucy_Smith, not all guys are like that and it’s unfair to suggest we deserve it. The ladies only section has equipment that is for the sole use of women. This equipment is surely being paid for by membership, thus women are getting a better deal. I am being discriminated against because of my sex. As far as I was aware that was technically against the law.

Why should I and all other men be made to pay for the upkeep and maintenance of machines that we are not allowed to use?

Surely this is wrong!

I’m sure in reality this isn't a big deal, it just crossed my mind that this was a little unfair.

When you say theres more equipment in that room, is it different equipment? Is there something in that room that is available only to the women?

If so, then yes. I would say that is not fair, since you pay for a membership, the same as they do. But if the equipment in that room is the same as the equipment everywhere else in the gym, I wouldn't bother about it.

I'd have to agree with Strix. Some people just don't like exercising in front of the opposite sex. When I used to go to the gym, occasionally being approached by men bothered me. I went there to exercise, not hook up with someone, and I did NOTHING to make myself look alluring!

What are some men thinking? Here I am, a sweaty, very married mom, and they wanna buy me a drink sometime? :loopy:

While they never had a women's only room, they had women's only classes. Which I used to take. But even then, there were guys who would come to the door of the room and stand there, watching. Until one of us ran them off. :hihi:

Of course, there are gyms that court certain groups. Some places cater more to singles, etc. The gym we used was more for families. Kids were welcome, and they provided child care.

Once I actually saw one of the men who tried to pick me up at a restaurant...with his wife and kids.

While it was tempting, I didn't go tell his poor wife what a lowdown dirty dog she was married to. I suspect she knew it already. It's not something I'd do anyway.

But if this really gets under your skin, talk to the gym management. I'm certain there's a good reason for the separate room!

:) Sierra

Originally posted by serapis
Thanks for the vote of confidence kathythebean. I'll keep an eye open for the woman in the sauna with a cricket bat :)

Lucy_Smith, not all guys are like that and it’s unfair to suggest we deserve it. The ladies only section has equipment that is for the sole use of women. This equipment is surely being paid for by membership, thus women are getting a better deal. I am being discriminated against because of my sex. As far as I was aware that was technically against the law.

Why should I and all other men be made to pay for the upkeep and maintenance of machines that we are not allowed to use?

Surely this is wrong!

I’m sure in reality this isn't a big deal, it just crossed my mind that this was a little unfair.


I understand, but having listened to the views of three women who have all unwanted approaches at the gym, could you allow us this one?

If there was a women only weights area in my gym I would use the weights, but as it is the weights area is practically a no-go area for me because there are always such big groups of lads in it who look intimidating and laugh at you if you attempt to work out how to use the machines! So in a way I'm paying for machines I can't use too!

If you feel you're being discriminated against you should complain to the relevant authority or take your custom elsewhere.

kathythebean, yes you can have this one, I didn't realise it was a big problem.

I’m not that hung up on the issue really, just seeing if anyone else has ever thought about this. We live in a PC age and I was surprised Greens could do this. Maybe because it’s a private club they can get away with it, but thinking about that, golf courses are now forced to allow women aren't they?

If this is a big issue (women getting unwanted advances) then im happy for this to continue and I for one, if I was a woman being hassled by a guy would at least ask her if she was ok.

If however this is because some (small number of) women are that self conscious they don’t like to work out in from of the opposite sex. I wouldn’t be happy for my membership being inflated to accommodate them.

If I said I didn't like the idea of working out in front of women I would suspect I would be told "tuff".

But if the unwanted attention lark is that much of a problem im all for a seperate gym for women where they can work out without these dick heads making moves on them. Some guys are like that thats a fact of life, the good thing is, most of these guys are idiots and they mate the rest of use look so much better!!!

Well maybe greens get away with it because they are obliged to keep their customers safe from sexual harrasment, etc. They really should make their policy clear to their customers though.

Sorry for all the ranting :) I realise this was just an idle question on your part, but I do feel quite strongly about it as often people have said to me that anti-sexism/feminism stuff has gone too far when my own day to day experiences tell me that in a lot of areas it hasn't even scratched the surface!

Let's start a gym for 'reasonable' people and not let in any sexist men or women that encourage them :thumbsup:

Originally posted by serapis
Thanks for the vote of confidence kathythebean. I'll keep an eye open for the woman in the sauna with a cricket bat :)

Lucy_Smith, not all guys are like that and it’s unfair to suggest we deserve it. The ladies only section has equipment that is for the sole use of women. This equipment is surely being paid for by membership, thus women are getting a better deal. I am being discriminated against because of my sex. As far as I was aware that was technically against the law.

Why should I and all other men be made to pay for the upkeep and maintenance of machines that we are not allowed to use?

Surely this is wrong!


I’m sure in reality this isn't a big deal, it just crossed my mind that this was a little unfair.

Serapis honestly what are you on about? The ladies only area has exactly the same equipment as the resistence area...so you have access to exactly the same machinery!!! You really are just being rather petty and if it weren't for SOME, not all men, but some (and trust me some is enough) ladies only areas wouldn't exist. If you really are that bothered maybe you should try taking Greens to the small claims court...let's see how far you get.

If however this is because some (small number of) women are that self conscious they don’t like to work out in from of the opposite sex.

Small number? I think you'll find that the majority of women are self-conscious, even if just a little bit. I don't agree that some people's memberships pay for machines for women to use, in my gym, every machine, except one, in the women' area is also found in the main gym area.

I agree about the weights area being a man-zone! It is intimidating, loads of blokes group around there, i've never seen a women using that area. I certaintly wouldn't, i feel more comfortable using the weights in the women's area.

My friends & i have also found men are much more 'friendly' at the gym, very annoying, esp when they think they have have to explain how the machines work, just to lean all over you...ergh :(

Originally posted by Lucy_Smith
Serapis honestly what are you on about? The ladies only area has exactly the same equipment as the resistence area...so you have access to exactly the same machinery!!! You really are just being rather petty and if it weren't for SOME, not all men, but some (and trust me some is enough) ladies only areas wouldn't exist. If you really are that bothered maybe you should try taking Greens to the small claims court...let's see how far you get.

Lucy_Smith, please understand this is only an off the cuff question to gauge peoples views and to try and understand why.

Put it this way, you join a private club, you are told you cannot go into a certain section because you are a woman. Its exactly the same, so what’s the problem? Now would you feel cheated if other people who are paying exactly the same membership are allowed simply because they are men?

Originally posted by serapis
Lucy_Smith, please understand this is only an off the cuff question to gauge peoples views and to try and understand why.

Put it this way, you join a private club, you are told you cannot go into a certain section because you are a woman. Its exactly the same, so what’s the problem? Now would you feel cheated if other people who are paying exactly the same membership are allowed simply because they are men?

I think you really are missing the point. If you ask Greens about this they will probably give the answer that some women have been made to feel uncomfortable in the gym because of approaches by men. It is not uncommon and it puts women off wanting to train. Is that fair? No...so Greens have responded to these complaints of sexual harrassment with the ladies only area. These areas aren't just there for the fun of it, it's sad that this is the only way that some women can train without being perved on. These areas are there as a direct response to the fact that women have been made to feel uncomfortable. Sure you may not be like that, many men aren't like that, but its a case of a small minority have ruined it for the rest of the decent men. But still, what is the problem anyway...you have exactly the same access to the machines as women just in a different area. Seriously...if it bugs you that much then you really should just join another gym.

I used to feel aggrieved by there being a women's area in gyms... but on further reflection I'm not so bothered now.

I know I'd like a men's only area so that all the women don't see me making an arse of myself, but that's beside the point for now.

But my point about why I've changed my mind is: what's the alternative? A system where you report a man for coming on to you and he gets banned? Fine in theory but open to much abuse.

For example, if a woman is sick of being come on to, and then some bloke wanders up and his only intention is to ask the time or something, she could jump to the wrong conclusion and report him - and he gets banned for nothing. OR, let's consider the less scrupulous women (cos let's face it - there are idiots of both sexes) who would deliberately get someone banned because they know them and don't like them. I think it's safer all round to have an area set aside for women where they can go and feel safe. Far fewer potential problems.

Lucy_Smith, I do see you point and I am not advocating a change in Greens policy. I am fully supportive of a female only room where women can train away from the idiots.

All I was asking is, is it fair for both sexes to pay the same amount but women get more for their money.

I know this is a contentious issue and after going to Greens I do not see this a problem, but my point still stands. Making a women only room is sexual discrimination how ever you look at it, just the same as if their was a men only room. Sexual discrimination is not just when women are unfairly discriminated against, it does work both ways. Whether or not you agree with it, and even if it has a positive outcome. This is still unfair to men.

Me being a guy (last time I checked .... yep still a guy) and paying £42 per month, I get to use approx 90% - 95% of the equipment, where as a woman, paying exactly the same gets to use 100% of the equipment if she so wishes.

RichD, I totally agree with you.

Originally posted by serapis
Me being a guy (last time I checked .... yep still a guy) and paying £42 per month, I get to use approx 90% - 95% of the equipment, where as a woman, paying exactly the same gets to use 100% of the equipment if she so wishes.

Nobody uses every machine in a gym though ;) If they are duplicates in the womens' room, you aren't really missing out - there's just less women hogging the equipment in the main section.

If there's a problem with not being able to use a machine in the main room, and there are machines free in the womens' room, I'd be really miffed if there were women in the main room and would complain to the gym management :thumbsup:

Originally posted by serapis
Lucy_Smith, I do see you point and I am not advocating a change in Greens policy. I am fully supportive of a female only room where women can train away from the idiots.

All I was asking is, is it fair for both sexes to pay the same amount but women get more for their money.

I know this is a contentious issue and after going to Greens I do not see this a problem, but my point still stands. Making a women only room is sexual discrimination how ever you look at it, just the same as if their was a men only room. Sexual discrimination is not just when women are unfairly discriminated against, it does work both ways. Whether or not you agree with it, and even if it has a positive outcome. This is still unfair to men.

Me being a guy (last time I checked .... yep still a guy) and paying £42 per month, I get to use approx 90% - 95% of the equipment, where as a woman, paying exactly the same gets to use 100% of the equipment if she so wishes.

RichD, I totally agree with you.

No...you can use 100% of the machines because they are available to you in the main room. I can see that you do not have access to the same NUMBER of machines as women, but this is not a pure sex thing...it's about men coming on to women. If women started coming on to men then I would fully accept a mens only room and wouldn't really care if I still have access to the same equipment as them. Maybe if the main room is always busy I might understand your point but I go to Greens at peak times and it is never that bad. This is just another example at how people like to claim that they are being "discriminated against" when in fact they are just moaning about something that really doesn't affect them.

Originally posted by Lucy_Smith
No...you can use 100% of the machines because they are available to you in the main room....

Lucy_Smith, I'm not trying to sound condescending, but Men do not have access to 100% of the machines. Yes they have access to all different machine types but this is not 100% of the machines.

Simple equation.

A gym has 100 machines, 90 of which are in the communal rooms the other 10 are in the Women’s only section.

Men only have access to 90 machines, thus they can only use 90% of them!

Originally posted by serapis
Lucy_Smith, I'm not trying to sound condescending, but Men do not have access to 100% of the machines. Yes they have access to all different machine types but this is not 100% of the machines.

Simple equation.

A gym has 100 machines, 90 of which are in the communal rooms the other 10 are in the Women’s only section.

Men only have access to 90 machines, thus they can only use 90% of them!

You will just have to use EXACTLY THE SAME MACHINES in the main area then. If ladies only areas are the only way gyms can stop sexual harrassment then I think they will continue to do it and I for one have their full support. I think most other people would agree that you are not receiving "unfair treatment" or "sexual discrimination" but that you are just moaning for the sake of something to moan about.

Originally posted by Lucy_Smith
You will just have to use EXACTLY THE SAME MACHINES in the main area then. If ladies only areas are the only way gyms can stop sexual harrassment then I think they will continue to do it and I for one have their full support. I think most other people would agree that you are not receiving "unfair treatment" or "sexual discrimination" but that you are just moaning for the sake of something to moan about.

Not 100% of men leer at women; for the percentage that don't, who don't have access to 100% of the machines, this is unfair. Can you really tell me otherwise Lucy?

Originally posted by serapis
Simple equation.A gym has 100 machines, 90 of which are in the communal rooms the other 10 are in the Women’s only section.Men only have access to 90 machines, thus they can only use 90% of them!

But didn't someone post earlier that they can't use the weight machines because that area is always full of men who make them feel silly by making remarks at them when they try .. so those women can't use 100% of the machines either.

There does seem to be a tendency amongst men (and some women too) whenever a woman makes a remark about sexist attitudes to try to make us believe that what we experience isn't really happening.

If the club feels that it needs to make machines available to women only - well they have that right. If you feel as a man that you're being asked to pay for something ur not able to use, ask them for a refund.

But AFAIK, organisations will always make provision for women only facilities/evenings as it is a cultural requirement for some religions. They have women only swimming at various baths too. Although I appreciate that you don't pay a membership fee for public facilities, you do pay for them out of your CT . Do you feel that you aren't getting your full dues in that regard, either?

Originally posted by rubydazzler
But didn't someone post earlier that they can't use the weight machines because that area is always full of men who make them feel silly by making remarks at them when they try .. so those women can't use 100% of the machines either.


But Ruby, there's a world of difference between someone not feeling able to go somewhere / use something because of the way other patrons make them feel, and being told by the management they can't do somewhere / use something because it is forbidden.

If there are issues with some gym members making others feel uncomfortable, that is an issue for the management of the gym to deal with by making sure the members know what is and what is not acceptable. Segregating people isn't the answer, and in some situations can worsen the problem.

I used to use Fitness First at Wadsley Bridge - they had a "quiet room" which tended to be used by women, but without the accusations of sexism.

I want to make two points. Firstly, I have NEVER been approached by men in the gym. This may be due to my flabby body, bright purple face and excessive breathing though.

I think women (generally!) tend to be more paranoid and self concious about their bodies than men - many overweight women would not join a gym unless they knew they could do it out of sight of all the fit men and skinny women.

The "quiet rooms" or ladies only rooms seem, IMO to be kitted out with the older equipment that has been replaced on the gym floor. You wouldn't necessarily be losing out.

Does it REALLY bother you that there's a room that people can go to without feeling the pressure of being less fit etc? Are there times when you REALLY can't get on a machine?

I kinda agree that the term should be quiet room rather than for ladies only, as it doesn't take into account the overweight and paranoid men... but please try to see the reasons behind it.

Originally posted by BoroughGal
I have NEVER been approached by men in the gym. This may be due to my flabby body, bright purple face and excessive breathing though.

shes talking rubbish!

but i did laugh :) lol

Aw that's sooooo sweet! But what I'm saying is true! I occasionally get these odd looks, think I've pulled, then see my self in a mirror, bright purple face, pure white rings round my eyes and mouth, and realise that they're contemplating calling me an ambulance!

Gimmie that womans only room, and quick.

Originally posted by BoroughGal
Aw that's sooooo sweet! But what I'm saying is true! I occasionally get these odd looks, think I've pulled, then see my self in a mirror, bright purple face, pure white rings round my eyes and mouth, and realise that they're contemplating calling me an ambulance!

Gimmie that womans only room, and quick.

well mirrors are a bad invention!! i feel the same way if i go out and see a mirror. im just about to join a new gym and its all bodybuilder types....its a confidence knock for me lukin so tiny beside them all haha.

i know sum people go to gyms as some kind of social event...usualy the people you luk at and fink `why are they at a gym?? they are the size of a rake' so maybe little specialised gyms would be better.

Originally posted by Kristian
Not 100% of men leer at women; for the percentage that don't, who don't have access to 100% of the machines, this is unfair. Can you really tell me otherwise Lucy?

Of course it's not fair...but it's only become like that because of the men that do leer at women. Like I said before, it's a minority of men that have spoiled it for the others (although I think "spoiled it" is a bit harsh seeing as serapis gets to use exactly the same machines just in a different area). It really does get my goat when people start taking the word discrimination too far. Yes discrimination exists, and it is a serious problem, but only when you are being denied something or access to something on the grounds of your sex. Serapis is not. He has access to these machines just in a different area.

Originally posted by Lucy_Smith
Of course it's not fair...but it's only become like that because of the men that do leer at women. Like I said before, it's a minority of men that have spoiled it for the others (although I think "spoiled it" is a bit harsh seeing as serapis gets to use exactly the same machines just in a different area). It really does get my goat when people start taking the word discrimination too far. Yes discrimination exists, and it is a serious problem, but only when you are being denied something or access to something on the grounds of your sex. Serapis is not. He has access to these machines just in a different area.

Originally posted by Kristian
But Ruby, there's a world of difference between someone not feeling able to go somewhere / use something because of the way other patrons make them feel, and being told by the management they can't do somewhere / use something because it is forbidden.

If there are issues with some gym members making others feel uncomfortable, that is an issue for the management of the gym to deal with by making sure the members know what is and what is not acceptable. Segregating people isn't the answer, and in some situations can worsen the problem.

I really think I covered this here! Serapis is being denied something that women aren't.

Originally posted by Kristian
I really think I covered this here! Serapis is being denied something that women aren't.

What exactly? The machines in the other room are the same. He is just being denied acess to a room that has exactly the same equipment as the other room, so why complain? In an ideal world ladies only rooms wouldn't have to exist but they do because of the way that some men have behaved in the past. Saying that men are not allowed in this just because they are men isn't entirely true, men aren't allowed in because of some of their behaviour. If Green's was to try and tackle this on an individual level it would be very difficult and time consuming for the management. And yes, prevention is better than getting to the root of the problem because it stops the women having to experience this in the first place. Maybe if serapis was so concerned about this he shouldn't have joined in the first place. He chose to be a member of Greens and everything that came with it. It is his choice to leave now if it really does bother him.

Originally posted by Lucy_Smith
... Yes discrimination exists, and it is a serious problem, but only when you are being denied something or access to something on the grounds of your sex. Serapis is not. He has access to these machines just in a different area.

Lucy_Smith, are you seriously saying that I and other men who are not allowed in this ladies only room are not being discriminated against. Why is a room any different?

You are obviously getting the wrong end of the stick, I am talking about numbers. There is no simpler way to explain it.

Men do not have access to 100% of the Machines, yes they have access to 100% of the machines types but this is different.

Here is another analogy, a gym has two rooms, and both are kitted out with the same equipment. There are different 5 machines in each room of the same quantity. Men are only allowed on the first room but not the second, women are allowed in both rooms. Going by YOUR thinking this is perfectly fair because men have access to 100% of the machine types?

Possibly being a bit of a devils advocate here but:

1. How would you defend somewhere like Virgin which is open plan but still has a womens only section, which isn't going to stop anyone leering?

2. What about the women who leer at men? Don't the men who don't like this deserve a separate area?

I think the idea behing a ladies only section is because of the fact that gyms traditionally were male dominated, and as a result intimidating to women.

To encourage more woman to come some gyms opened a ladies only room. This means more woman become members, so more membership money and more equipment for everyone.

If there wasn't a ladies section perhaps a lot of women wouldn't have joined. I am sure the extra money generated doens't just go to pay for the equipment in the ladies room.

Quite honestly Serapis I wouldn't care whether there was a mens only room as long as I had access to exactly the same equipment as them. If you believe you are being discriminated against you should do something about it instead of moan, as there is a law against it and all. But as I have said before I very much doubt you would get very far. You chose to be a member of Greens, every aspect of it. If you really do have any complaints I suggest you post them in the complaints box. But to stand there are use such a strong word as discrimination and then not do anything is pointless.

Evildrneil - didn't know that about Virgin, to be honest that seems a little pointless and kind of defies the object of a ladies only section. As for a seperate mens section I think this is a fab idea and fully support it. In my experience, men don't experience the same level of sexual harrassment at the gym but as mentioned before there may still be those men who feel uncomfortable exercising in front of women. I would feel like I was in no way missing out and if it helped more men come to the gym I would be fully behind it :D

seems fair to me! Maybe they want a bit of privacy?

Originally posted by Lucy_Smith
... use such a strong word as discrimination and then not do anything is pointless....

My I suggest you have a read of your dictionary.

dis·crim·i·na·tion
n.
1. The act of discriminating.
2. The ability or power to see or make fine distinctions; discernment.
3. Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice: racial discrimination; discrimination against foreigners.

Also I am not moaning, I’m just posing the question to see people’s views. Last time I checked this is a forum for that precise purpose. Which so far the majority of people do accept this IS unfair, with the added point being, it is the best method to help prevent certain problems some gyms may face. That still does not detract from it being sex discrimination and that was my point.

If you look at this BBC page dedicated to the subject, you will see the following:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/onelife/work/rights/eq_sexual.shtml

What counts as sex discrimination?
> Treating someone unfairly because of their sex.

I think Lucy should take her temper elsewhere and stop ruining what should have been a good discussion topic :mad:

I hate feminists :rant:

Oh purleese...I haven't lost my temper and am certainly no feminist. I agree that discrimination exists but can't stand the fact that some people will call anything discrimination and yet do nothing about it. Serapis have you actually contacted the management about this issue?

And Strix it is quite rude to suggest I am ruining the discussion just for presenting my opinion, I personally think serapis is moaning and causing a fuss over nothing. But please guys don't be so sensitive, I'm just presenting my opinion.

Maybe we could start a poll to see how many people agree? This may settle the issue. Maybe the question should be is the existence of ladies only areas in gyms discrimination? I don't know how to do this so somebody help me out.

Originally posted by serapis

What counts as sex discrimination?
> Treating someone unfairly because of their sex.[/I]

But separis, you have not, IMO, established a case that you are being treated unfairly because of your sex. The operative words being "treated unfairly".

You are being treated differently, but not unfairly. It seems to me that you have no legitimate reason to complain.

If this issue so concerns you, I am somewhat surprised that you joined Greens gym in the first place.

Disclaimer: I'm a bloke and I don't use a gym.

Originally posted by redrobbo
But separis, you have not, IMO, established a case that you are being treated unfairly because of your sex. The operative words being "treated unfairly".

You are being treated differently, but not unfairly. It seems to me that you have no legitimate reason to complain.

If this issue so concerns you, I am somewhat surprised that you joined Greens gym in the first place.

Disclaimer: I'm a bloke and I don't use a gym.

Red: read the whole thread. If you still don't get why it's discrimination, let me know.

A person is not allowed in a room becase of their sex. This is not a changing room or toilet that would be required to be single sex for public decency.

Male and female members pay the same rate for membership, and one group is allowed more access than another.

Since when has this not been discrimination? :huh:

Originally posted by Strix
I think Lucy should take her temper elsewhere and stop ruining what should have been a good discussion topic :mad:

I hate feminists :rant:

This seems a totally unneccessary remark at this point.

I could say that I hate male chauvinists ... but how would that be apropos to this discussion?

Lucy is making perfectly valid points. I can't see anywhere that she's displayed "temper"? Can anyone else?

Originally posted by Lucy_Smith
And Strix it is quite rude to suggest I am ruining the discussion just for presenting my opinion, I personally think serapis is moaning and causing a fuss over nothing.
Originally posted by Strix
I think Lucy should take her temper elsewhere and stop ruining what should have been a good discussion topic :mad:

I hate feminists :rant:

So what's wrong with me expressing my opinion then, Lucy?

Serapis has raised a topic for discussion and debate, and you have 'slapped him down'. He is curious about the whys and wherefores, and invites a challenge to common social predjudices and political correctness, and he has been met with the kind of hysterical rant that could be expected from the usual quarters ;)


Originally posted by Lucy_Smith
.... But please guys don't be so sensitive, I'm just presenting my opinion.

.... I don't know how to do this so somebody help me out.

And then she comes over all 'blonde' and fluttery eyelashes :roll: :gag:

Originally posted by rubydazzler
I could say that I hate male chauvinists ... but how would would be apropos to this discussion?


I hate them too (couldn't understand last bit)

Originally posted by Kristian
Red: read the whole thread. If you still don't get why it's discrimination, let me know.

A person is not allowed in a room because of their sex. This is not a changing room or toilet that would be required to be single sex for public decency.

Male and female members pay the same rate for membership, and one group is allowed more access than another.

Since when has this not been discrimination? :huh:

Hi Kristian -

I have indeed read the whole thread, and did so before posting. The arguments became circular and repetitious.

I merely replied to a specific point by serapis, when he posed the question:-

"What counts as sex discrimination?
Treating someone unfairly because of their sex"

My reply was to point out that he is not being treated unfairly.

Your example, of separate toilets, illustrates my point. Toilets are provided for all customers - but men are not allowed to use the women's loos, and vice-versa. Each gender though has access to toilet facilities. As no-one is being denied access to toilet facilities, ipso facto, there is no sex discrimination.

It is now accepted that the facilities available in the women's only room at Greens gym are available to both men and women - but in the main area. As each gender has access to the same facilities, no-one is being denied access to any type of equipment. Ipso facto, there is no sex discrimination.

If men were being denied access to certain types of equipment, which were only being made available to women - then that would constitute sex discrimination.

Red

Originally posted by redrobbo
Hi Kristian -

I have indeed read the whole thread, and did so before posting. The arguments became circular and repetitious.

I merely replied to a specific point by serapis, when he posed the question:-

"What counts as sex discrimination?
Treating someone unfairly because of their sex"

My reply was to point out that he is not being treated unfairly.

Your example, of separate toilets, illustrates my point. Toilets are provided for all customers - but men are not allowed to use the women's loos, and vice-versa. Each gender though has access to toilet facilities. As no-one is being denied access to toilet facilities, ipso facto, there is no sex discrimination.

It is now accepted that the facilities available in the women's only room at Greens gym are available to both men and women - but in the main area. As each gender has access to the same facilities, no-one is being denied access to any type of equipment. Ipso facto, there is no sex discrimination.

If men were being denied access to certain types of equipment, which were only being made available to women - then that would constitute sex discrimination.

Red

There is a womens only section. There is no mens only section. This has been established I understand. Therefore members of different sexes have access to more areas than others based purely upon sex.

If a member wants to use machine type A, and there are x 5 in the main section, and x 1 old shabby one in the ladies only section, then a man has choice of five, and the woman a choice of six.

This, all for the same price, and bear in mind that there may be a queue of 20 men in the mixed section, and no queue in the ladies section.

Do you still think this is fair Red?

K x

Originally posted by Kristian
If a member wants to use machine type A, and there are x 5 in the main section, and x 1 old shabby one in the ladies only section, then a man has choice of five, and the woman a choice of six.

A woman who feels too intimidated would argue that she has the choice of only one of those machines, but is paying membership for an area she isn't able to use in peace ;)

Let's take this in stages Kristian.

Originally posted by Kristian
There is a womens only section. There is no mens only section. This has been established I understand. Therefore members of different sexes have access to more areas than others based purely upon sex.

Facts established. No disagreement. The reasons why there is a women's only section has been covered by other posters.
Restricted access to certain parts of the gym does not of itself constitute sex discrimination.

Originally posted by Kristian
If a member wants to use machine type A, and there are x 5 in the main section, and x 1 old shabby one in the ladies only section, then a man has choice of five, and the woman a choice of six.

You illustration does not demonstrate that this amounts to sex discrimination. The said machine type A is still available to both men and women.

Disclaimer: I think that we can assume that Greens, with a reputation to preserve, will not be providing any kind of shabby equipment.

Originally posted by Kristian

This, all for the same price, and bear in mind that there may be a queue of 20 men in the mixed section, and no queue in the ladies section.

Do you still think this is fair Red?

K x

i) Prices are the same for both and women. There is no sex discrimination in pricing policy.
ii) Conversely, there may be a queue of 20 women in the ladies section, and none at all in the mixed section. You have not demonstrated that there is sex discrimination occuring in your example.
iii) I am only discussing sex discrimination. Fairness is an entirely different issue - which I leave to others to judge.

Red

Originally posted by Strix

I hate feminists :rant:

I think its great how you're allowed to come out with that. How is saying that cos of lucy any better than me saying you are a dick because of something another man did to me? I'm quite upset. Im a feminist, do you hate me? I think if you read my earlier posts you'll see I took a very balanced view of the whole thing and tried to defend serapis? There's really no need for that at all.

I'm not against men. I do think people are a little too quick to say that things are equal for women now and they wish people like me would stop going on about it.

I just think that a mountain has been made out of a molehill here. My gym has no ladies only section, so I wouldn't really know. Yes, maybe it is unfair. But its not discrimination. But serapis himself said he wasn't really that bothered about it, and if anyone else is, maybe they should just change gyms.

i say that if women want their own space let them have it! i go to a gym and all i can say is, i think that women can be more "up for it" keeping fit that is.. than men.. i go alone, ive tried to find a buddie to join in but no luck, the women are all for the classes etc they seem more able in the long run to comit to things most of the blokes ive seen as my gym seem to want a 6pack over night etc: i think keeping fit is a life time thing not a quick fix. i dont see many big headed women at my gym only the blokes!:thumbsup:

Originally posted by kathythebean

My gym has no ladies only section, so I wouldn't really know. Yes, maybe it is unfair. But its not discrimination.

Well put kathythebean. This is precisely the point I was making in my reply to Kristian.

There have been too many bogus arguments promulgated on this thread about alleged sex discimination. Having established the facts, it is nothing of the sort. As to whether it is unfair, I repeat.... that is for others to judge.

Originally posted by kathythebean
I think its great how you're allowed to come out with that. How is saying that cos of lucy any better than me saying you are a dick because of something another man did to me
Anybody care to put this poor mis-guided fool straight for me? ;)

There is a ladies only section at my Gym, I've never realy understood it as the guys can still leer at you from the main part of the gym, infact it helps them by concentrating all the ladies iinto one small space, so they don't get a sore neck scanning the gym.

Originally posted by evildrneil
Possibly being a bit of a devils advocate here but:

1. How would you defend somewhere like Virgin which is open plan but still has a womens only section, which isn't going to stop anyone leering?

2. What about the women who leer at men? Don't the men who don't like this deserve a separate area?

this REALLY annoys me - all the running machines are taken up on busy night EXCEPT the ones in the 'women's only' area

what the **** is that all about - complete positive discrimination

edit: my 1000th post (this) is me ranting arghhhhhhhh

Off course the only real solution is to return to victorian values and have only segregated excercise :D

Originally posted by redrobbo
You illustration does not demonstrate that this amounts to sex discrimination. The said machine type A is still available to both men and women.

I think this is the point I was trying to make before I was branded a feminist/blonde whatever. The machines are still available to serapis, but he is arguing that there aren't as many available to him. Maybe that isn't fair but it certainly does not imply discrimination. But to that I would ask why on earth he joined Greens in the first place knowing that, and yet then has a problem afterwards. He maybe should have joined somewhere that didn't have a ladies only section, so that he wouldn't feel his membership money was being used for something he wasn't paying for.

So any sign of the poll being created then? It would be interesting to find out what the general consensus was, especially from people who might not want to post.

I think your going a bit over the top mate- yes at greens they do have a seperate section but its not like it makes any differance- you can always get on the machine you want pretty quickly anyway!!! and (some) women don't have as much self confidence as man and prefer to work out with other women who won't look at them like men do (as happens in gyms-it shouldn't but it does!!).

It strange- i have never seen anyone come onto anyone else at greens- i will look a bit closer later to see if im just being blind!!!

Originally posted by Lucy_Smith
The machines are still available to serapis, but he is arguing that there aren't as many available to him. Maybe that isn't fair but it certainly does not imply discrimination. .

Why doesn't that imply discrimination then?
I have to wait longer to use a particular machine which isn't always available to me when i want it to be due to the fact that they are being used (by men and women in the 'main' area), yet there are other machines unoccupied (in the 'womens' only area) which i'm not allowed to use.

Therefore the 'quality' of service is being diminished 'unnecessarily' in light of my gender which is made odd by the fact that the gym's womens only area is a part of the main gym! (which kind of negates the function of a womens only area?)

I take your (and others) point about women not being comfortable due to harressement by blokes - bit out of order that and plain weird in a surreal environment like a gym

Originally posted by Bedhead
Why doesn't that imply discrimination then?
I have to wait longer to use a particular machine which isn't always available to me when i want it to be due to the fact that they are being used (by men and women in the 'main' area), yet there are other machines unoccupied (in the 'womens' only area) which i'm not allowed to use.

Therefore the 'quality' of service is being diminished 'unnecessarily' in light of my gender which is made odd by the fact that the gym's womens only area is a part of the main gym! (which kind of negates the function of a womens only area?)

I take your (and others) point about women not being comfortable due to harressement by blokes - bit out of order that and plain weird in a surreal environment like a gym

Sorry strix, didn't realise you were female! I was a little tired when I wrote that post. There are an awful lot of people on this forum and I'm not sure what gender half of them are!

Even so, to proclaim that you hate people and that I'm a fool isn't really not when as I said, if you'd read my posts you wouldve seen I was just putting my point of view across and being perfectly pleasant! I hope I haven't offended you. :)

I think the only option is to leave the gym well alone and stick to the pub :) Now if only we could decide whether women should drink pints..

Kathy - Glad we've got that cleared up! ;)

If you can see where I'm standing, I'm an engineer, and it isn't easy being tarred by the same brush as the 'womens' brigade' all the time. I get sick of being assumed to be a feminist myself, and if the high-handed attitudes of some women were kept to themselves, my life woud be so much easier :thumbsup:

Why should women get preferential treatment? Positive discrimination is a real problem. It devalues those that don't need to seek it, but are categorised in with the noisy few

Originally posted by kathythebean
I think the only option is to leave the gym well alone and stick to the pub :) Now if only we could decide whether women should drink pints..
Did you do Beckyaa's post on that? (I hate gyms anyway - mind numbing. Give me an empty room and somebody to kick anyday! :D )

Ah well you see, there are feminists and feminists. I'm a feminist and I'm sick of being tarred by the same 'high handed womens brigade' brush too! I always try to be careful and measured with my comments as I know going charging in there can do more harm than good!


Originally posted by Strix
Did you do Beckyaa's post on that? (I hate gyms anyway - mind numbing. Give me an empty room and somebody to kick anyday! :D )

Did i 'do' her post? what do you mean? I only have one profile on here if thats what you're on about!

By the way, I agree with you about positive discrimination, I just disagree that a seperate womens area in a gym is anything to do with discrimination or feminism!

positive discrimination is still discrimination.

I understand and agree with Serapis' point, women have access to a higher number of machines than men, this sounds like discrimination to me.
If it were a 'shy' persons room, or a quiet room, or whatever other label you care to apply then it would be fair enough.
Or if there were a womens and a mens only room in addition to the mixed area, then that would work.
But to provide women with extra facilities (more of the same, yes I got that, but still more) and not men is unbalanced no matter what the rationalisation.

The solution should be to make acceptable behaviour clear and to ban or suspend both men or women who break the rules.

Oh - and yes, I feel personally offended by womens only swimming nights, where are the mens only nights?

Originally posted by Cyclone
*snip*Oh - and yes, I feel personally offended by womens only swimming nights, where are the mens only nights?

There probably are men only sessions too Cyclone ... at least at public baths. As I said previously, some women might be prevented from that exercise at all, if there were no women only sessions. However, presumably vice versa applies? Does anyone know?

Originally posted by rubydazzler
There probably are men only sessions too Cyclone ... at least at public baths. As I said previously, some women might be prevented from that exercise at all, if there were no women only sessions. However, presumably vice versa applies? Does anyone know?

I've never seen an advert for a mens only session. I doubt the feminists would stand for it. :P

If a religion restricts the freedom of women, address the religion, don't pander to it.

Originally posted by Cyclone
I've never seen an advert for a mens only session. I doubt the feminists would stand for it. :P
If a religion restricts the freedom of women, address the religion, don't pander to it.

You type "the feminists" as though there's something wrong with feminism? How can anyone object to men and women being equal under the law and placed on a par with one another?

I wonder if "feminists" have ever asked for single sex swimming sessions. (goes off to google for information)

However, if men require single sex swimming sessions they ought to be provided. Perhaps we should have a poll about it? Or maybe some men should start a petition or something ... I'd sign it.

Re the religion part of your response. I don't think it's pandering to anyone nor do i want to interfere with other people's beliefs. I may not agree with them, but they have the same right to feel comfortable as I do and if that means providing facilities so be it .

Originally posted by kathythebean
Did i 'do' her post? what do you mean? I only have one profile on here if thats what you're on about!
Naw! Did you contribute to the thread she started - 'should women drink pints' (or something similar)

Originally posted by kathythebean
By the way, I agree with you about positive discrimination, I just disagree that a seperate womens area in a gym is anything to do with discrimination or feminism!
It wasn't the area I was really bothered about, it was the treatment of serapis that kicked me off

Okay - in the spirit of good debate....

The women using the restricted area are paying membership to a gym they feel they have use of only part of the facilities for. They have assessed the available facilities, and have taken the plunge to pay full membership although they know they will only ever use the machines in the restricted area, and never those in the main area. It is these people that lose out most financially :D

*sits back and awaits beginning of strip tearing contest*

PS - I still stand by my assertion that it should be alternate nights for males and females for the restricted excercise area. I know there are 7 days in a week, but this means there will be no 'but I can only get there on a Tuesday' type problems :thumbsup:

Originally posted by Strix
Okay - in the spirit of good debate....

The women using the restricted area are paying membership to a gym they feel they have use of only part of the facilities for. They have assessed the available facilities, and have taken the plunge to pay full membership although they know they will only ever use the machines in the restricted area, and never those in the main area. It is these people that lose out most financially :D

*sits back and awaits beginning of strip tearing contest*

PS - I still stand by my assertion that it should be alternate nights for males and females for the restricted excercise area. I know there are 7 days in a week, but this means there will be no 'but I can only get there on a Tuesday' type problems :thumbsup:

they aren't restricted to that though by rules, they may choose to use only a specific area, I might choose not to use the rowing machines, that's completely irrelevant.

Ruby - did you miss the smiley? It was a joke. Although semi serious. Start a mens only session and a someone will start complaining that it's sexist. If say that a womens only session is sexist, and feminists accuse us of being neandertal throwbacks. You can't win against that sort of logic.
Equality is fine, that means no special rooms for either sex, or special rooms for both. It shouldn't require men bashing by feminists or women bashing by men. Feminists sometimes seem to expect positive discrimination to somehow 'make up' for the negative discrimination that women used to suffer.

As I've already argued the same thing over and over again I'm not going to bother saying any more about whether men are discriminated against. I believe serapis chose to join Greens knowing that the so called "discrimination" was in place and so other than make a suggestion for a mens only room to the management, which I would fully support, he can't really complain.

But what about the religion side of the debate? As has already been posted some women chose to follow a religion that doesn't allow them to reveal their bodies to men. Ok yes some of us may shout "this is unfair to the women" but then really they have CHOSEN to follow that religion. I would imagine if Greens didn't have a ladies only section they may be accused of discriminating against people from certain religions. This isn't an argument I would necessarily agree with whole heartedly but I was discussing this thread the other night with a friend and she pointed out this fact. Views anyone?

Originally posted by Strix
Naw! Did you contribute to the thread she started - 'should women drink pints' (or something similar)

Oh I see :)

Yes I agree serapis was a little unfairly treated. For an idle comment this has turned into a fiery little debate!


Start a mens only session and a someone will start complaining that it's sexist. If say that a womens only session is sexist, and feminists accuse us of being neandertal throwbacks. Feminists sometimes seem to expect positive discrimination to somehow 'make up' for the negative discrimination that women used to suffer.

Cylcone you've just waded in pre-empting a debate that hasn't even happened and assigned everyone a stupid stereotype. My feminism is carefully considered, I dont recall ever having called anyone a neanderthal throwback in my life! You say stuff like "I doubt the feminists would stand for it" as if theres a bunch of us standing here producing leaflets and rallying outside greens, barring entrance until we get our own section!

I've already said, having a women only section is nothing to do with feminism or positive discrimination. Its not like selecting female MPs over male ones, is it?! You can bet your life that Greens gym are not making a femininist attempt to equalise the gender playing field when it comes to working out. No-one ever said "women deserve their own gym section because in the past they couldn't vote".

If anything, its just business sense, isn't it. Greens probably thought "if we have a womens only section, more women might join". I expect if enough male members wanted their own section or equal access to the restricted one, then the management would probably change their policy again.

you're probably right, it was almost certainly decided on a business case, not a moral stance.

And I wasn't applying that stereotype to you personally, just trying to be humorous, sadly i normally don't succede.

Lucy - Just because a policy exists when you join doesn't stop it being discriminatory. If you joined a business with a policy of paying women 75% the amount men doing the same job were paid, would it be acceptable because you knew that when you joined?

I see a trend that has in some areas gone past equalisation for the sexes and now leans in favour of the women, with special provisions being made for them whilst the men have to make do with the basic level of service.

Cyclone you're getting confused between a business - employee relationship and a business - consumer relationship. People can go to a different gym, or join a running club, or start their own gym, or whatever. It is not discrimination if a shop only sells clothes for tall people.

If you see this trend I don't doubt your own experience. However, personally I believe it has gone in the direction of superficiality - more gym sections and health food ranges for women, a slow increase in female MPs but still unequal pay, inadequate protection from domestic violence and sparse and expensive childcare.

good point, shops and services can be sold on whatever basis they wish. But supposedly equal members of the gym receive an unequal service. This wouldn't happen in a shop or any other type of service.
Female MPs receive the same salary don't they? Are you referring to the new minister for women who has taken the role for no additional pay. I think she should have refused it as it sends out a mixed message, but having taken it I think she should be paid for it.
Funnily enough men suffer from domestic violence as well, this is the most under reported type of violent crime I believe.
Childcare is not a womens issue, it applies to men as well, or would if the courts weren't biased in a mothers favour in custody decisions.

Sorry, I didn't mean female MPs get paid less, I meant we have a growing number of female MPs but on average, ordinary women still get paid less than men for low level service jobs.

The bit about childcare was that in 'two-income' families women are usually responsible for the child care and domestic tasks (dont come at me with your individual stories, I'm not talking about your family, national statistics show a high prevelance of the 'double shift' - I would be happy to provide anyone with the relevant references to research) and also that no-one could argue we in britain have high quality available affordable childcare for everyone. Fathers4Justice, yes, I salute you, but do not try to obscure the abject failure of the CSA to recoup child benefit from thousands of neglectful fathers. This is a huge problem for many single parent families on the poverty line. So for every bitch mum there is a stay away dad.


Having said all that, Cylcone, I'm not going to get into a long winded debate with you about whether women are worse off than men, that to me is not what feminism is about. My point is not that men have a great life and things are really hard for women, but that a ladies section in a gym is not a triumph for feminism or a sign that equal rights have gone too far.

good, it would be a boring debate because i think broadly i agree with you.
I can see Serapis' point though, and Lucy completely misunderstood it, it was never about the type of machines, but about the numbers available.

The gym i use is unisex and only small, being in a hotel, unfortunately it's normally filled with aging bald overweight men.

Tee hee, do they have an 'old baldies' section?! Yes my gym is unisex too, but I hardly ever go, so I'm not too bothered about it :) Now the weather is getting nicer (not today though!) I can go running outdoors.

Yet still nobody has addressed the question of religion. Would it be fair to argue that gyms that don't have a ladies only section are discriminating against women following certain religions that may not allow women to reveal their bodies to men? It seems anything can be called discrimination nowadays...which seems to be an extension of everything having to be so darned pc and by the book.

Cyclone - yes I see that serapis is not granted access to the same number of machines as women, but being a member of Greens I have never had to wait to use a machine in the main gym area and don't believe he will so I really don't see the problem. I find it difficult to accept that it may be discrimination when we hear, for example, women earning less than men in the same job, or men getting treated differently than women in caring professions. I really don't think a ladies only section in the gym compares, personally.

Originally posted by Lucy_Smith
Yet still nobody has addressed the question of religion. Would it be fair to argue that gyms that don't have a ladies only section are discriminating against women following certain religions that may not allow women to reveal their bodies to men? It seems anything can be called discrimination nowadays...which seems to be an extension of everything having to be so darned pc and by the book.


Lucy with respect I think you're getting confused between discrimination and fairness.

To discriminate against someone, you have to treat them differently specifically on account of something about themselves. So, charging someone less for the gym because they are a Mormon or not allowing someone entrance because they are Chinese is discrimination. Failure to provide special facilities to someone with a particular religion is not discrimination, to my mind. As I said before, they are free to start a Quaker gym, or join a Muslim friendly gym, or exercise in their own homes. It may not be fair, but its not discrimination.

Originally posted by kathythebean
Lucy with respect I think you're getting confused between discrimination and fairness.

To discriminate against someone, you have to treat them differently specifically on account of something about themselves. So, charging someone less for the gym because they are a Mormon or not allowing someone entrance because they are Chinese is discrimination. Failure to provide special facilities to someone with a particular religion is not discrimination, to my mind. As I said before, they are free to start a Quaker gym, or join a Muslim friendly gym, or exercise in their own homes. It may not be fair, but its not discrimination.

Ah yes but according to the arguments presented on this thread they would be discriminated against if there was no ladies only area, as the facilities in Greens wouldn't be available to them. Just as supposedly men are discriminated against as the ladies only facilities aren't available to them. Men are free to join a gym without ladies only facilities, just as Muslims are free to join a Muslim friendly gym. So how come one is perceived as discrimination but the other isn't?

This 'argument' is starting to get out of hand :roll:
It's far too surreal, and I'm buggered if I can understand Lucy's latest post :shakes:

:lol:

I think it all went downhill when we started talking about the ins and outs of discrimination. Obviously some of us perceive this word differently to others!

Yeah, I'm not sure what you mean really lucy.

I don't think women are discriminated against if they don't have their own section, equally, women having their own section is not discrimination against men. None of this has anything to do with discrimination!

Originally posted by kathythebean
... equally, women having their own section is not discrimination against men...

Then what would you call it?

Originally posted by Lucy_Smith
Ah yes but according to the arguments presented on this thread they would be discriminated against if there was no ladies only area, as the facilities in Greens wouldn't be available to them. Just as supposedly men are discriminated against as the ladies only facilities aren't available to them. Men are free to join a gym without ladies only facilities, just as Muslims are free to join a Muslim friendly gym. So how come one is perceived as discrimination but the other isn't?

there is a clear difference between something not being available because my religion or personal choice makes it so. Ie not wishing to be exposed to the gazes of women in the gym might make it not available to me, this is not discrimination.

When a facility is offered to the public, but restricted by rule based on something such as sex, it is discrimination.
The availability or lack thereof of alternatives is neither here nor there when it's a rule that is the discrimination.

It was discrimination when the front of the bus was restricted to whites only, it's discrimination when a special room is reserved for women only.
It's choice if I decide my religion means women can't see me in hotpants and thus I feel I cannot go the gym.

Originally posted by Cyclone
It's choice if I decide my religion means women can't see me in hotpants

I bet thats quite a sight, thank god for whatever religion forbids it.

Originally posted by Cyclone
When a facility is offered to the public, but restricted by rule based on something such as sex, it is discrimination.

Yes I would whole heartedly agree but this is a private members only gym, not a public facility. People chose to become members. I wouldn't chose to become a member of a club I considered promoted discrimination, but yet serapis has done this. Now he complains! If he didn't like it he should have joined elsewhere.

Originally posted by Lucy_Smith
Yes I would whole heartedly agree but this is a private members only gym, not a public facility. People chose to become members. I wouldn't chose to become a member of a club I considered promoted discrimination, but yet serapis has done this. Now he complains! If he didn't like it he should have joined elsewhere.

I don't usually rant but I think I need to stand up for myself here. Lucy, I’m not complaining, and I’m not moaning, I’m simply asked for people’s opinions, in an Adult manor. Please stop trying to use this as s tick to beat me with, or as a basis for your counter argument!

rant over!

Originally posted by serapis
Then what would you call it?

I think I've made myself clear in earlier posts, I retire! :)

Originally posted by nick2
I bet thats quite a sight, thank god for whatever religion forbids it.

fortunately it was only an example, I wouldn't wear hotpants unless I was paid a large sum of £££ to do it.

Lucy - You don't think it's discrimination for mens clubs to admit only men then, or for golfing clubs to have men only rules? Apparently the courts disagree with you as some have been taken to court and lost and now have to offer membership for women.
Maybe by your reasoning they could restrict women to 1 or 2 holes and designate the others 'men only'.

The simple reason is that having a womens only section brings more money in to the gym. Meaning more equipment can be bought for the main section as well.

There is no way to describe this without sounding sexist, but it is because gyms think some women will be intimidated and not join the gym without a seperate women only section.

Imagine a ficticous activity called widgeting, now this activity is mainly done my women in clubs. After it has been around for a long time men start wanting to widget too, some did it before but not many. However they see that the women are all really good and know exactly what to do. Because of this they don't want to go to the clubs as they are intimidated and embarassed they will look silly. One club sees an opportunity to make more money by encouraging these men to join, so start a mens only widgeting section of the club. Now then men are happy and join the club, bringing in more money. The women dont mind the men only widgeting section as they see new people bringing more money in, that will get spent on the main widgeting section too. They decide that if a mens only section is the only way to get some men to join then it is a good idea.

That makes sense to me! No doubt everyone will ignore the sensible post as usual! :D

very sensible, and look at me not ignoring it.

it only works though if you believe the widgetting club doesn't bring in the extra money and pocket it, as any good capitalist organisation would do.

So no extra investment is generated, only extra profit.

Any good business uses profit to fund growth, otherwise they would get nowhere!

hmm i wana go widgeting now :(

Originally posted by march
Any good business uses profit to fund growth, otherwise they would get nowhere!

they put the minimum investment possible in and keep the rest. Or rather distribute it to shareholders or have it removed as drawings.

Perhaps, what about if the company was struggling and without the extra profit made by the mens only section they would go bust.

Originally posted by serapis
I don't usually rant but I think I need to stand up for myself here. Lucy, I’m not complaining, and I’m not moaning, I’m simply asked for people’s opinions, in an Adult manor. Please stop trying to use this as s tick to beat me with, or as a basis for your counter argument!

rant over!

Yes but why did you join if you felt you were being discriminated against??? :confused: I certainly wouldn't join anywhere if I felt discrimination was taking place out of principle!

Cyclone - yes I have a problem with mens only golf clubs. But if I could access the exact same golf club elsewhere, in a way it which it in no way inconvenienced me I wouldn't have that problem. Do you see???

Originally posted by Lucy_Smith
Yes but why did you join if you felt you were being discriminated against??? :confused: I certainly wouldn't join anywhere if I felt discrimination was taking place out of principle!

Cyclone - yes I have a problem with mens only golf clubs. But if I could access the exact same golf club elsewhere, in a way it which it in no way inconvenienced me I wouldn't have that problem. Do you see???

No I don't see, you are applying double standards.

Originally posted by Cyclone
No I don't see, you are applying double standards.

I wouldn't have a problem because I could access the exact same club elsewhere.

The fact is:

You can have women only clubs.

You can not have men only clubs.

You can invent rules in clubs to benefit women.

You cannot invent rules in clubs that benefit men.

Originally posted by Mosey
The fact is:

You can have women only clubs.

You can not have men only clubs.

You can invent rules in clubs to benefit women.

You cannot invent rules in clubs that benefit men.

unless you get taken to court where a judge rules that you must stop being discriminatory, as per golf clubs.

Right- im going to go into the greens womens only gym tonight and quote serapis's argument to then and see what they say ;)

Originally posted by Lucy_Smith
Yes but why did you join if you felt you were being discriminated against??? :confused: I certainly wouldn't join anywhere if I felt discrimination was taking place out of principle!

Lucy,

I have said from the start of this discussion that I am in favour of a ladies only section because of the problems that some women had experienced.

This however does not detract from it being a form of discrimination, be it negative, positive, sideways or what ever you want to call it.

OK, so in view of your argument, would you be in favour of a gym that had a common room and a men’s only room? And please don’t give me a Galloway answer, a simple yes or no will suffice!

Originally posted by scottf
Right- im going to go into the greens womens only gym tonight and quote serapis's argument to then and see what they say ;)

By all means, but try to get a broad range of views by asking non members too.

Every person I have spoken too (men and women) have agreed that this is on a basic level descrimination against men.

Originally posted by serapis
Lucy,

I have said from the start of this discussion that I am in favour of a ladies only section because of the problems that some women had experienced.

This however does not detract from it being a form of discrimination, be it negative, positive, sideways or what ever you want to call it.

OK, so in view of your argument, would you be in favour of a gym that had a common room and a men’s only room? And please don’t give me a Galloway answer, a simple yes or no will suffice!

Lol...without giving a Galloway answer..."yes". Why? Because I would have access to the same machines as men in the main room. And it may encourage more men to go to the gym who felt self-concious about exercising in front of women. More people who exercise = more healthy people = less strain on the NHS.

Originally posted by Lucy_Smith
Lol...without giving a Galloway answer..."yes". Why? Because I would have access to the same machines as men in the main room. And it may encourage more men to go to the gym who felt self-concious about exercising in front of women. More people who exercise = more healthy people = less strain on the NHS.

I think some people are letting their personal feelings on this matter make their judgement and not looking at the issue from a critical standpoint. This isn't about whether or not there is a positive result, more the basic understanding of "What is Discrimination".

Balance is probably a good way of describing this, there is not a balance of services available to both sexes for the same fee.

Originally posted by serapis
I think some people are letting their personal feelings on this matter make their judgement and not looking at the issue from a critical standpoint. This isn't about whether or not there is a positive result, more the basic understanding of "What is Discrimination".

Balance is probably a good way of describing this, there is not a balance of services available to both sexes for the same fee.

I would agree and say that this thread has become less about the ladies only section in the gym and more about how people view discrimination. Interestingly a few of us see it differently to others. Personally, I will never feel I am being discriminated against if the same facility is available to me at no inconvenience to myself. You are right...this is just the way I would personally feel. But isn't that what you were asking for in the first place...how people felt about the ladies only section in the gym?

Originally posted by Lucy_Smith
I would agree and say that this thread has become less about the ladies only section in the gym and more about how people view discrimination. Interestingly a few of us see it differently to others. Personally, I will never feel I am being discriminated against if the same facility is available to me at no inconvenience to myself. You are right...this is just the way I would personally feel. But isn't that what you were asking for in the first place...how people felt about the ladies only section in the gym?

I see your point, this thread has evolved somewhat over the last few days. I never thought so many people would get so involved in reading and commenting on this issue.

Thanks everyone. In my mind its better to have a view on a subject reather than following someone elses.

Originally posted by Lucy_Smith
Personally, I will never feel I am being discriminated against if the same facility is available to me at no inconvenience to myself.

When the running machines are being used up in the 'main area' of my gym and vacant in the 'womens only' section (which is all in the same room of my gym) would you agree that i'm being discriminated against because of my gender?

Originally posted by Bedhead
When the running machines are being used up in the 'main area' of my gym and vacant in the 'womens only' section (which is all in the same room of my gym) would you agree that i'm being discriminated against because of my gender?

I would then call this discrimination yes. But I know this isn't the case at Greens, there are always machines available in the main area, even at the busiest times.

This debate has become somewhat surreal. To the many forummers who just read the posts, the debate is now taking place somewhere in the stratosphere!

Folk can go off at tangents, hypothecate as much as they want, even invent widgets if they want, but the situation on the ground, i.e., a separate room for women at Green's gym, is the reality - and this is what I addressed in my earlier posts.

As I posted before, there is no sex discrimination taking place. If you stick to the facts, and not widgets or other hypothetical situations, then Green's gym is not discriminating against anybody. Same machines, provided for the same members. That is not sex discrimination, because no-one is denying anyone access to the same equipment. End of story.

But we've men wanting to go into the women-only room. Why for goodness sake? Do these men demand to go into the ladies shower area because they may happen to have one or more extra showers - and that's seen as discriminating against men? Do men complain that there are more toilets for women, and demand access to them, as this is seen as discrimination?

Get a grip. Come back to reality. And, serapis, if you think the policy at this gym stinks - move your custom elsewhere. There isn't a cat in hell's chance of substantiating a claim of sex discrimination, when the machines used in the women's only section are available to men in the main room. Case dismissed. Costs awarded against serapis.

Originally posted by redrobbo
This debate has become somewhat surreal. To the many forummers who just read the posts, the debate is now taking place somewhere in the stratosphere!

Folk can go off at tangents, hypothecate as much as they want, even invent widgets if they want, but the situation on the ground, i.e., a separate room for women at Green's gym, is the reality - and this is what I addressed in my earlier posts.

As I posted before, there is no sex discrimination taking place. If you stick to the facts, and not widgets or other hypothetical situations, then Green's gym is not discriminating against anybody. Same machines, provided for the same members. That is not sex discrimination, because no-one is denying anyone access to the same equipment. End of story.

But we've men wanting to go into the women-only room. Why for goodness sake? Do these men demand to go into the ladies shower area because they may happen to have one or more extra showers - and that's seen as discriminating against men? Do men complain that there are more toilets for women, and demand access to them, as this is seen as discrimination?

Get a grip. Come back to reality. And, serapis, if you think the policy at this gym stinks - move your custom elsewhere. There isn't a cat in hell's chance of substantiating a claim of sex discrimination, when the machines used in the women's only section are available to men in the main room. Case dismissed. Costs awarded against serapis.

redrobbo,

Please go back and read this entire thread, the case for access to changing areas is to do with public decency and NOTHING to do with this discussion!

If you are going to try and continue down the path, "There are the same machines in the women's part" then again you haven't read this thread properly! Its not about which machine you have access too it’s how many! Whether or not there are sufficient machines even at the most busy times!

I’m not going to rise to your "get a grip" and "come back to reality" message as frankly if you want to start throwing insults at people to try and get your point over, you've failed!